Chris Burkard - The Art of Storytelling and Living Boldly Artwork

The Photographer Mindset

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The Photographer Mindset

Chris Burkard - The Art of Storytelling and Living Boldly

April 28, 2025 • Seth Macey & Aaron Mannes • Episode 270

In this episode we're joined by photographer and filmmaker Chris Burkard (@chrisburkard) as he shares his insights on storytelling, creative exploration, and balancing ambition with family life. Chris dives into the leap from dreaming to achieving, finding joy in the creative process, and building a meaningful legacy through connection with nature. He opens up about cultivating curiosity, overcoming impostor syndrome, and redefining success beyond metrics, while highlighting the importance of bold creative freedom and lasting impact.

Expect to Learn:

How to turn "what if" moments into actionable plans and executed vision
Why chasing joy, not perfection, makes you create your best work
How to balance roles as a creative professional and devoted parent
Why the most accessible and frequently gear trumps the latest technology

Chris's Website: https://www.chrisburkard.com/
Watch "The Forgotten Coast" Film: https://tv.apple.com/movie/the-forgotten-coast

Sponsor:

Thanks to WhiteWall for being our lead sponsor this episode! They're the top choice for photographers who want high-quality prints, with a variety of material options, and who want their work delivered fast in 9 days or less!

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Thanks for listening!
Go get shooting, go get editing, and stay focused.

@sethmacey
@mantis_photography
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00:34.55
Aaron
Chris, welcome to the show.

00:37.01
Seth Macey
ah welcome

00:38.20
Aaron
we We are big fans. I don't think you can be in the photography sort of genre on Instagram without being a big fan. um And I say that truthfully.

00:49.14
Aaron
ah We ran into each other on Clubhouse in the Clubhouse days, ah probably during COVID. I think it was a perfect storm in terms of people wanting to share and and talk to people, being locked up at home and and being able to talk to people.

00:57.61
burkard
Yeah. Yeah.

01:03.88
Aaron
and A clubhouse works with like rooms and there can be moderators and there'd be a topic per se and people would ask questions. But Chris was moderating a few rooms ah that I happened to be in, maybe even shared a moderation stage. I don't remember.

01:19.17
Aaron
We have mutual friends, Brett Blakely. I think he just saw you in New York City. um

01:22.98
burkard
yeah

01:23.69
Aaron
But I just remember kind of being blown away by your stories and your willingness to share and spend time with ah anyone that wanted to listen.

01:31.80
burkard
Yeah.

01:32.21
Aaron
Uh, for a long time, I've wanted you on the show and, ah again, kind of surprised and, and very grateful. Uh, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. I mean, you've got a big following. You've got a ton of stuff that you're doing and you responded to my DM.

01:47.74
Aaron
I don't know, within minutes, if not, if not hours to be like, yeah, man, let's, let's try to set it up.

01:51.33
burkard
I was waiting. was waiting for that. Waiting.

01:53.93
Aaron
You're waiting for it. I'm sure.

01:55.52
burkard
I just, yeah.

01:57.39
Aaron
yes He finally wrote. Yeah.

01:58.92
burkard
Yeah.

01:59.34
Aaron
You've made it now, bud. You're on the show.

02:01.55
burkard
I'm grateful.

02:02.54
Aaron
Uh,

02:02.73
burkard
Yeah, you know, i mean, to be to be fair, i think that just to just to, you know, throw in my two cents, I feel like that idea of connection has been the the fundamental, you know, keystone for for so using social media for me.

02:03.06
Aaron
ah

02:15.73
burkard
It's always been the point of it, I think. Back in the day, you know, when there used to be things like Instameets and stuff like that, where we we would get together and in person in in real time.

02:22.33
Seth Macey
Thank

02:27.40
burkard
that was That was kind of always the point. And I guess nowadays, obviously, that those social media channels have evolved and grown and become totally new things as well. I feel like at the core of it, that's what it's all about. It's about connection. And I feel like that that's the exciting thing for me is being able to connect to people, being able to learn from people, being able to hear their story, um you know engaging within that audience and just trying to you know foster those real experiences that can come from those channels.

02:55.17
Aaron
Yeah. And do you think that is still the case? You think we're we're drifting away from that? Is it hard to still find that? Is it hard to find and feel like that is real? Or do you feel like it's still there?

03:05.90
burkard
You know, it's...

03:06.72
Seth Macey
right.

03:07.03
Aaron
It's just a little noisy?

03:08.50
burkard
Yeah. You know, what's funny is that in the, you know, in the grand scheme of things, yeah, because of the fact that most people just can't even speak to the audience that they've grown because just people aren't seeing content these days. You know, you can have millions and millions of followers and you're speaking to like 10% of them.

03:28.52
burkard
You know, and and i'm not I'm not, you know, and here to complain about it at all because the the people that I do have relationships with are are super strong and amazing. But I will say that, yes, over the years, that used to kind of be this incredible new thing where, you you know, you'd meet people and and it would it would foster a relationship and maybe there'd be some trip or expedition or photo shoot or film or something that would come of that.

03:52.43
burkard
And nowadays it feels like less and less. Um, and think a part of it is just because the connectivity is now of a more pay to play model, as I think everybody knows. And that is a bit frustrating and challenging.

04:04.50
burkard
Exactly.

04:06.95
Aaron
Yeah, I think that's a good point. It does seem like anything that you're putting out there, there's kind of like this this troll at the bridge that's like, is this for your purpose? Or dude is ah are you paying us to allow this to go through?

04:20.08
Aaron
you know there's like this There's like this stopgate in in terms of that.

04:20.20
burkard
exactly

04:23.56
Aaron
And if anything's just for you or something that you like or a photo that you're proud of, they're like, we're not going to waste anyone's time with that. That's not bringing any bucks in. Yeah.

04:34.03
burkard
It's a complicated narrative.

04:34.20
Aaron
so

04:34.48
Seth Macey
Thank

04:35.45
burkard
And i I also get that like, you know, those channels, they aren't owned by us. So we have to appreciate what they offer.

04:40.08
Aaron
Right.

04:41.10
burkard
And it's, you know, what it for what it's brought, it's been a really beautiful gift. Like i I still look at it as net positive in every way because it's some of my most meaningful relationships I have now.

04:53.92
burkard
I've met because of social media. So it's it's a great tool. I think it just depends on how you use it, you know?

04:59.26
Aaron
Absolutely. And I think gratitude is something we talk about a lot. And ah seth did a great real sort of just pointing out and reminding people, if you were talking to a room of a hundred people about your photograph, that looks pretty impressive.

05:04.64
Seth Macey
Right.

05:13.10
burkard
Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

05:13.75
Aaron
If you were ah talking to a thousand people, let alone, you know, tens of thousands of people, if you sort of think about it versus going like it used to be tens of thousands.

05:14.00
Seth Macey
right

05:19.70
burkard
Yeah.

05:23.57
Aaron
Now it's only a thousand people like my photo still though, ah thousand people are looking at your photo, maybe commenting, liking it.

05:25.45
burkard
Yeah.

05:32.24
Aaron
And you were able to reach around the world with it for free.

05:35.89
burkard
It's crazy. Yeah, it really is. I mean, I i speak professionally as ah as a career.

05:38.30
Seth Macey
Thank you.

05:42.17
burkard
it's It's probably one of the most consistent things that I do, um like yearly. And that freaks me out every time I get onto a stage, every time I share a story. And and there could be anywhere between, you know,

05:54.00
burkard
20 people to 2,000 or something like that. Right. And, and sometimes those 20 are more scary because it's usually like ah you know, a room full of CEOs or whatever.

05:57.34
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

06:03.72
burkard
And, and that's fascinating. Like, like even that it can be, you think differently about what you're going to say. You're more conscious about the stories. You're kind of like, you know, trying to make sure you're hitting all your points. And, and I mean, if we spent that much time or thoughtfulness on what we shared into the world, I think it'd be a very different situation.

00:00:06.29
Seth Macey
chris I had a question for you when I was watching the Forgotten Coast film.

00:00:07.38
burkard
Yeah. Yeah.

00:00:13.27
Seth Macey
In the very like first two minutes when you're in the plane looking at the rivers, ah you talk about you have this moment where it's a would it be possible moment or that quote what if moment that hits you as you're looking down.

00:00:28.31
Seth Macey
I think it was pertaining to what if what would be would it be possible for me to ride my bike across at all these and raft across these.

00:00:33.54
burkard
yeah

00:00:35.22
Seth Macey
My question is when that moment hits you, that what if moment or the would it be possible moment in your brain, how do you continue momentum forward from that point on and execute your vision? I feel so many people fizzle out at that pivotal moment and essentially can stay daydreaming forever.

00:00:54.75
burkard
Man, that's such a good question, to be honest, because I've never i've never been asked that, first of all, but there but there is a big leap. That idea of like inception of an idea, the dream, whatever, whatever you want to call it, that moment, and then getting to like execution, right?

00:01:04.56
Seth Macey
Right.

00:01:11.01
burkard
there's a there's a It's a big step, right? And I would say that it

00:01:13.73
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:01:15.26
burkard
It becomes less romantic than you think. I think that's part of the issue. You have a lot of dreamers out there. There are a lot of dreamers, a lot of artists, great artists, better than me artists.

00:01:26.52
burkard
But I do think that, you know, not to pat myself on the back, but one of the the skill sets I've really had to hone over the years is this idea of, okay, Now I got to buckle down and I got to start to plan.

00:01:38.37
burkard
And a lot of that looks like staring at Google Earth. It looks like staring at Google Maps. It looks like making a route. You know, I probably started first thing after that flight because that was a real moment. Like I remember flying and being, what if this was possible?

00:01:49.83
Seth Macey
Right.

00:01:51.27
burkard
And I had just seen it all with my eyes. And so I felt like I knew the route was was cap possible. And so the next thing I did is I went to the computer. I'm starting to build a route on like Ride with GPS or some kind of a ah ah GPS routing software, right? Strava, Onyx, whatever.

00:02:08.97
burkard
And then I would start to build out a route and I would start to look at, okay, you know where's fresh water? Where is food? Where is resupply? Et cetera, cetera, cetera.

00:02:16.61
Seth Macey
right

00:02:16.54
burkard
And then um um I'm kind of wrapping my head around as it's possible. And then I'm trying to think of what would it cost? you know what What are the costs of involved? So the the possibility that check mark has been checked, it's possible.

00:02:28.04
burkard
You know, not probable, but it's possible.

00:02:30.53
Seth Macey
Right.

00:02:30.54
burkard
And then, you know, what is the the what is the the paycheck that's going to have to go towards us? What is the drop off? You know, maybe my own personal supplies, the food, if I want to document it, what does that look like? I would have to hire this, this and that person, they're driving that, you know, I'm, I'm, I think years of experience plays into this where I'm starting to think about everything down to like the gas expenses for the car driving and the food for the crew.

00:02:54.35
burkard
And knowing that like, okay, for them to film it, it's going to cost me, you know, whatever, 8,000 bucks or something like that.

00:03:00.23
Seth Macey
Right.

00:03:00.23
burkard
So that's where I really think the rubber hits the road.

00:03:00.36
Seth Macey
Right.

00:03:05.02
burkard
And the the romanticism of being a photographer and executing, like it kind of goes out the window because you go into full producer mode, which I know both of you are probably very familiar with. And that is a challenging space to be in. You know, you're you're managing...

00:03:18.23
burkard
you know, theoretically, you're managing checkbooks and stuff like that. You're not, you know, you're not dreaming up beautiful shots. The toughest part, you know, is having, and this is kind of the the backside of that question, um is like, you then have to kind of, you know,

00:03:34.60
burkard
I guess you could say reverse engineer the process to then be creative again. So you've done all, you've done all the checks and balances, boom, boom, boom, boom. You got the crew set up, you know, you got the time you you, you helped everybody deal with their flights to get into where they're going, whatever.

00:03:48.79
burkard
I mean, this is like for an expedition, right? It's not the same as every photo shoot or anything, but then once you get on the bike and I'm, or I'm doing the trip, I'm doing, I'm documenting the thing.

00:03:51.71
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:03:58.43
burkard
I have to go back into creativity mode. And that can be really rough. Like, I don't know about you, but for me, it's hard to go from like, okay, planning, procedure, producing Chris to like trying to be the artist.

00:04:11.08
burkard
And sometimes I feel like that's where I fail the most is the art part because I get out there and I'm like, oh yeah, I've got to start to think creatively. And like oh, this is a shot right here. And oh, that's another shot. And and it's really tough.

00:04:23.95
burkard
It's really challenging. Yeah.

00:04:25.23
Aaron
Yeah.

00:04:25.45
Seth Macey
Yeah, it sounds like...

00:04:25.59
Aaron
On top of that, you, you forgot in a third leg, which is the athletic part of it.

00:04:26.18
Seth Macey
Okay.

00:04:30.73
Aaron
So, and ah i mean, you're sitting and we've all been in the planning stage.

00:04:30.72
Seth Macey
right

00:04:34.85
Aaron
Seth and I run some trips or you're planning your, your very similar. Where's our ride? Where's our stay? What are we doing? What's for dinner? And you're staring at a computer on your butt for hours at a time. And then to say like, wait, I have to be in shape for this also.

00:04:48.59
Aaron
And I have to know my gear and I have to know how to,

00:04:48.56
burkard
Yeah.

00:04:51.94
Aaron
inflate ah a kayak and deflate it and pack stuff and like that whole aspect of it too and then I think on top of that that's where I was getting anxiety watching it is just like and you're flowing and now you got to stop for like a shot like that's to me maybe the the missing link where sometimes I'm like you know what the camera's not coming on this expedition because it's just it's too much and it's impressive

00:04:56.77
burkard
Totally.

00:05:09.41
burkard
Yeah.

00:05:14.07
burkard
Totally. and it's why it's why I often, when I'm on trips like that, all I'm thinking about is, ah okay, Am I willing to sacrifice quality of shot for like good composition or willingness to take the camera out?

00:05:22.82
Aaron
Thank you.

00:05:30.44
burkard
Because oftentimes if I want to bring the, you know, the 8K, the 6K, the 4K monster, whatever, which is impossible, like you're goingnna you're going to get less shots, but the shots you get will be higher quality.

00:05:40.81
burkard
Well, I don't want a three minute film. I want a 20 minute film.

00:05:43.67
Aaron
yeah

00:05:43.89
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

00:05:44.06
burkard
And if I'm to be willing to take my camera out all the time, I need it to be able to fit in here because I need to be riding my bike, grab it, set it up, put the brakes on. shoot, move on.

00:05:55.71
burkard
Like I'm not putting down a tripod, never, nothing like that. So I'm thinking really acutely around what device is going to give me what look and then which that determines what camera I'll bring. So like on the Forgotten Coast, which is rad, it's kind of like a masterclass in like, you know, carrying a tight kit and then trying to use that kit to do something big.

00:06:16.46
burkard
I had a ah Sony RX100, which is like the point and shoot

00:06:16.66
Aaron
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:06:20.25
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

00:06:20.24
burkard
cam. It's a it's a good like it has a really good range it's like to 120. So on a crop sensor, that's like being able to shoot almost at 200, right? Or like 180. So I had this compressed camera, right? And it was also my like primary stills camera.

00:06:34.61
burkard
And then I had an iPhone, which shot 4K, right? And obviously it doesn't have a shallow depth of field at all. ah But I didn't really prioritize that. i didn't really care about that. You know, my phone was set up and then I had a GoPro.

00:06:46.81
burkard
And the GoPro was kind of the POV, kind of the in the water stuff. And then the the Sony... um was more of like the proper footage that I was trying to shoot. And then the phone was just like found moments in like, you know, when we're at a shelter or a hut or somebody's having to fix a bike or something really crappy is happening.

00:07:05.22
burkard
um And then again, on that trip, we had a crew that kind of helped out with like some drone shots and some of this and some of that. And so that did, you know, allow us to get a few more intimate moments.

00:07:16.31
Aaron
Yeah. And a ah common theme we have here is I think people tend to get stuck with, I'll i'll make that movie when I can afford the Sony FX3. you know, then, then I'll do it. Or when I get that new piece of glass, like then I'll, then I'll get serious about this.

00:07:33.72
Aaron
And to, to see that film and hear that list of equipment as, as a huge part of it, I think again, should be eyeopening to people is the narrative, the story, the, just the, the entire lineup is, is what you need reign supreme.

00:07:46.85
burkard
Yeah. Reign supreme, right?

00:07:48.60
Seth Macey
Thank

00:07:49.32
burkard
Yeah.

00:07:50.09
Aaron
Then, then having the best camera.

00:07:50.68
burkard
Yeah.

00:07:52.29
Aaron
Cause if you don't have that part, then it it doesn't matter how, how pretty it is.

00:07:56.15
burkard
yeah I agree. And you know, what's interesting is that it's often that best camera, which is the one you're willing to pull out, right? The best camera to me isn't the one you have deep in your backpack at the bottom of everything where you, you, you, you know, abhor the idea of stopping to grab it.

00:08:10.93
burkard
Like the best camera the one where you're like, oh, it's in my pocket. going to pull this out and shoot. And it's why I look back at my iPhone photos and those are my fondest memories.

00:08:15.35
Aaron
Yeah.

00:08:19.61
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:08:20.07
burkard
because they they weren't something serious. It was just like, I wanted to you know keep this one for me.

00:08:25.37
Aaron
Yeah.

00:08:25.88
burkard
But I was honestly, i was i was a bit concerned when we made that film because I've been a big advocate for like, if you're going to shoot the film in 4K, shoot it all in 4K. If you're going to shoot it all in so you know, try to keep consistency when it comes to camera systems.

00:08:38.71
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:08:38.95
burkard
And this one was absolutely not that. It was like, you know, it was, again, it was GoPro, iPhone, RX100, and then we had the A7S, the a one whatever. So we we had a plethora of cameras and being able to mix that footage together and feel like it color graded well was like a big surprise to me.

00:08:57.11
burkard
um Because that was always a kind of a ah you know, not a rule that I live by, but something I try to be obvious of is like, don't mix them up if you can.

00:09:02.48
Aaron
Yeah.

00:09:06.02
Aaron
Yeah, that makes sense.

00:09:06.20
Seth Macey
right i love that question i mean if you if you polled 100 random photographers and you said hey what's the best camera they're going start listing things with the craziest specs i love that idea of reframing it it's the best camera is the one that you can use the most efficiently

00:09:21.08
burkard
Yeah.

00:09:21.80
Aaron
Yeah.

00:09:21.71
burkard
Yeah. And if that's a film, that's what it is, a little point and shoot.

00:09:22.27
Seth Macey
so

00:09:24.49
burkard
Or if it's, you know, yeah again, if it's your Leica, great.

00:09:25.05
Aaron
Yep.

00:09:27.67
burkard
If it's your, who knows? I just, I think it's like about the willingness, willingness to use it, right?

00:09:33.47
Aaron
I'll tell you what it's not. It's not a huge gimbal.

00:09:35.84
burkard
No, no, it's a gimbal that's, that's unstabilized or whatever it is, or not called it.

00:09:39.53
Aaron
the Yeah, you have to balance it every time.

00:09:41.32
burkard
It's

00:09:42.37
Aaron
I've brought that to three trips and I've used it zero times.

00:09:45.36
Seth Macey
never seen him use it.

00:09:46.63
Aaron
Nope. I've stopped bringing it.

00:09:48.09
Seth Macey
But he pays extra for his luggage, so...

00:09:48.72
Aaron
I've learned. yeah I've learned, but that that's one of those things where it's like, I think I want really smooth footage.

00:09:54.83
burkard
Sometimes you have to show up on you have to show up with it, though, just to look like dialed, you know, because nobody questions you.

00:09:59.19
Aaron
Yeah, yeah, you have to have it. yeah Yeah, you have to have it. You have to have it. ah

00:10:04.61
burkard
Yeah.

00:10:04.77
Seth Macey
There was another point in the in the film that I wrote down. You said, quote, I'm waiting for the first thing to go wrong, as if it was just matter of fact.

00:10:13.88
burkard
Yeah.

00:10:14.46
Seth Macey
And my question for you with years of experience how is having that confidence in knowing that things definitely will go wrong on a challenging task or project an important perspective to learn and develop?

00:10:26.71
Seth Macey
Why is that crucial to have that mentality?

00:10:30.35
burkard
um I think it takes away the shock and the awe of when it does. You know, you feel less, you know, it's like the the person, you know, like, you know, you throw something at them, they don't even flinch. And you're like, whoa, what has that dude been through, you know, or whatever.

00:10:44.48
burkard
um And I think it's kind of like that, where...

00:10:48.11
Seth Macey
Right.

00:10:48.63
burkard
you you You bring a little extra of this. you you know You bring a little extra of that. you You're a little more thoughtful about what you pack. You're a little more thoughtful about your kit. And even me, like you know there's a time when I might have, I definitely have. I've ridden my bike with like a 70 to 200 and you know, a full, full size body and everything. And I'm like, that was the dumbest thing I've ever done. I've taken stuff like that at the top of Mount Whitney and regretted every second of it.

00:11:13.20
burkard
um So a little bit of, you know, experience goes a long way is, is what I'm trying to say. And I, and I do think that um the mindset really just comes down to kind of laughing it off a little bit.

00:11:24.22
burkard
Like, like this is, this is just how it was supposed to be.

00:11:24.60
Seth Macey
Right.

00:11:26.94
burkard
I was supposed to fall in this Creek in the middle of the winter and, or, you know, I was supposed to get a flat tire on the top of a glacier and have to change it. And or whatever it is, like things that you know this camera was meant to break and you kind of laugh at it and a part of it makes you really angry or a part of it you're kind of like, well, this is also A cool thing is I think nowadays I'm also not the one that usually has to fix it.

00:11:49.46
Seth Macey
right

00:11:49.43
burkard
I'll find somebody else to fix it. And my job is to usually stay calm and keep those around me calm, especially in like a photography, commercial photography sense where there's a client there's people I'm i'm doing a job like that.

00:12:01.56
burkard
You know, your goal is to kind of be the one that keeps them excited, you know, and, and optimistic if you can.

00:12:08.73
Seth Macey
How do you best do that?

00:12:10.54
burkard
Yeah. Um, well, I would say that having other real challenges in life help, you know, just having real, you know, it's, and and again, I don't want to, uh,

00:12:22.44
burkard
I'm not trying to age myself or date myself, but I will be by saying this. But um you know when I grew up and I was doing the work that I was doing, you know what I felt was pushing the boundaries in photography and and really making a name for myself um you know maybe 10 plus years ago or whatever.

00:12:41.15
burkard
um I had kids, you know, i had two kids and I was married at 21. I've been married for almost 18 years. um I've been raising a son ah since I was 26.

00:12:52.69
burkard
twenty six So while most of my friends are like,

00:12:54.19
Aaron
well

00:12:56.30
burkard
just trying to you know figure out how to afford that first big camera gear or like just maybe getting married or or just moving in with their partner. I'm like, yeah, like the whole time there was other stuff happening. I would say that for me, that sort of um drinking from the water hose of responsibility it it taught me quite a few things. And and one of those things is just to um be really focused on your time, how you spend your time, your responsibilities.

00:13:22.86
burkard
You know, what does it mean? It's, it means things start to mean a lot different when you're caring for somebody else and your job isn't just for you. It makes you think about the projects differently. Think about how motivated you are, like how willing are you to hustle, you know? And I don't know, that's a mindset that I haven't lost.

00:13:39.55
Aaron
Yeah. I'm curious so with a family with increasing the numbers in the family, does that change or no, that's it done.

00:13:46.81
burkard
There'll be no increase. No, none of that. Yeah. yeah we're I have two kids.

00:13:52.28
Aaron
too.

00:13:52.19
burkard
I'm done. I'm good.

00:13:53.12
Aaron
Yeah.

00:13:53.51
Seth Macey
I like the hand motion.

00:13:53.92
Aaron
Yeah. Clip, clip, snip, snip. ah But back then as a young, as a young man getting into it, ah you, you are increasing your family and you now have responsibilities. You now have children.

00:14:06.45
Aaron
You're an adventurer. You're climbing Mount Whitney. You are surfing in the Arctic. You are crossing rivers in Iceland. Does Is that who you are and that's part of the deal, honey?

00:14:20.64
Aaron
Or is that, does that shift at all with the onset of children, with the onset of family? Like I need to hedge my bets a little bit because now there's a bigger responsibility as a whole that I'm bringing to this world.

00:14:34.38
burkard
That's such a good point. you know um I'll try to answer that as honestly as I can, but ah definitely not not a, you know, that's part of the deal, honey, only because i i my wife and I grew up together. Like I i went to high school with her.

00:14:48.56
burkard
We dated since high school, you know, broke up. with So all I'm saying is we know each other. And she has seen the progression of me being like a humble auto mechanic in high school that was going to go college to work at a shop, right?

00:15:03.44
burkard
to being a photographer and to pursuing this career path. And in the beginning, it wasn't really about expeditions and adventures. It was about shooting surfing. And that took me further and further and further away. And it started to take me to places that were more remote and off the beaten track. and And I think I took that that work ethic and I applied that to the action sports world and tried to shoot a plethora of action sports and that forces you to become fairly experienced in, in them.

00:15:31.73
burkard
And so, yeah I'd say that my pursuit as like an athlete or as somebody who's telling stories out there on the fringe or whatever, um it kind of is born from that. And I, but I, I really take,

00:15:44.26
burkard
I really take taking risk with a lot of weight and it's something that i don't can I don't mess around with and I think about a lot. And yes, there' it's interesting because it's it's this funny thing. Like your kids are young.

00:15:57.45
burkard
Everything's complicated. Life is the most challenging it will ever be. At least for me, it was. Just relationship with the wife and trying to, if you're somebody who's traveling and leaving the home, like this creates a lot of tension and you're trying to figure out like, well, where's my time best spent?

00:16:08.10
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. yeah

00:16:11.80
burkard
Am I am i needed am i needed in the home? Is that where I should be? Am I missing out on being a dad? It's also complicated when you're good at something and you're receiving this confirmation bias that when you're doing that thing you're good at working, that you're gonna receive, you know, love and affection and admiration and money and whatever, right?

00:16:26.06
Seth Macey
right.

00:16:30.31
burkard
So that is complicated. And i remember early, my kids were young, ah part of me did kind of want to like reel back things in and just be more thoughtful about what I was doing. And sadly, it's also interesting because by doing so, I created years of work that wasn't great.

00:16:48.85
burkard
You know, maybe wasn't, I wasn't super proud of, but I was doing it because it was safe and I made money and that's, that was important. And I got to raise this family, you know, and, and that's cool. But, When I'm thinking about iconic imagery, imagery that lasts forever, imagery that hopefully you know lands on the cover of a magazine or a book or is meaningful, it's a part of my career or my portfolio, that wasn't made in those years.

00:17:11.77
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

00:17:11.81
burkard
And it's interesting because now, fast forward 10 years, my kids are 10 and 12. and they know who I am and they know what I care about and they know what I love and and what I'm working toward or working for or whatever, it's almost weird to me to not fulfill that role.

00:17:33.81
burkard
you know like This sounds crazy, but like I would rather you know be somebody who's proving to them that I'm willing to take a risk and willing to go out there and try something and do something than I would be somebody who's like, you know, we got to play it safe and I'm going to take this job and I'll be home every day.

00:17:49.99
burkard
Like, I don't know that that's going to be the inspiring figure that they need. And I want to live up to that. Something else, something bigger, you know.

00:17:58.08
Seth Macey
Right.

00:17:59.02
Aaron
Yeah, very well said, very well said. It's, it is, everything's a trade-off, right? There's not a solution in in your early twenties when you have children to say like, there's a solution to both.

00:18:12.71
Aaron
I can go full at this and give my best and be available to be home and

00:18:19.25
burkard
Totally.

00:18:19.48
Aaron
be a father. So it's like, it's that balancing act. And I've been there before. I have a nine-year-old son and, and just the sort of like, am I doing the right thing by even spending a time, you know, an hour right now talking on a podcast versus hanging with him.

00:18:26.62
burkard
Yeah.

00:18:32.90
burkard
Yeah. Yeah.

00:18:35.57
Aaron
But there is this, there is this mix. There is this sort of trade-off where you try to balance it and then make up the time and bring experiences into his life or their lives and, and have these opportunities that you probably wouldn't have if you do play it safe.

00:18:51.08
Aaron
So it is that concentrate off. And I don't think there's a necessarily a right or wrong answer for any individual, but there is for a certain individual to understand where,

00:19:02.25
Aaron
they will be most happy and most fruitful as a ah parent of kids. And like you said, I think for them to see a shell of their father, like he could have been this or he was on his way to that.

00:19:14.89
burkard
Yeah. And I think it's like,

00:19:16.80
Aaron
I feel bad for him, you know?

00:19:18.79
burkard
it's It's almost like that idea, though, that they like I've been too honest with them about what makes me happy and they would know they would see through it if I was like not pursuing the things that I loved and and taking the risks in my career still and stuff like that, you know, and it's a it's a tricky one.

00:19:36.80
Aaron
Yeah.

00:19:37.93
burkard
It's not it's not for everybody. I mean, this is not Parenting 101 with Chris Burkhardt at all.

00:19:41.01
Aaron
No, no, no.

00:19:42.21
burkard
But this is just yeah, it's something.

00:19:43.10
Seth Macey
so

00:19:44.81
Aaron
New podcast.

00:19:44.89
burkard
i Yeah.

00:19:46.57
Aaron
The parenting mindset.

00:19:48.15
Seth Macey
I guess speaking, speaking about trade-offs, Chris, my question for you would be what criteria needs to be met for a trade-off to make sense for you, for you to offer your time?

00:19:48.51
Aaron
Uh,

00:19:57.29
Seth Macey
i guess this would speak to your why, your reasons for doing things and also how you're choosing to allocate your time based on those things.

00:20:01.65
burkard
Yeah.

00:20:07.04
burkard
Yeah, honestly, and great point. So to me, a trade-off with what would it look like first, you know because it's a different for everybody.

00:20:13.73
Seth Macey
Right.

00:20:13.87
burkard
you know um I think ah trade-off for me looks like, okay, I have people I love and care about and don't want to spend time with. ah versus I have an opportunity and that opportunity is going to take me away from this.

00:20:25.64
burkard
um Or, but you know, it's going to take me away from whatever, a sport that I love or ah a place that i really enjoy being or who knows, i'm on I had an opportunity to go on a vacation, but this job came up, right?

00:20:36.00
burkard
I'm just trying to paint a picture how it might look for and somebody else.

00:20:37.29
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:20:39.45
Seth Macey
right

00:20:40.10
burkard
um But yeah, it would have to look like, well, um I'm going to put that through a filter of things, you know, and I'm going to put that through my marketing mindset, right? going to say like, hey, is this a job that I'm going to do because it's going to pay well?

00:20:53.33
burkard
Is this a job that I'm going to do because it's going to give me great exposure? Maybe the pay isn't as good. Is this a job that I'm goingnna do because it's with somebody I want to work with? And I'm really excited to, it I don't really care what I'm getting paid, but it's worthwhile because it's going to be fun.

00:21:07.41
burkard
Or is this like just dream assignment? I've always wanted to do it. um I would pay my own way if I had to, right? And those all, they all feed a different thing, right? The monetarily thing is going to feed like the family and the need and the blah, blah, blah. And it's worthwhile because of you're paying your next mortgage.

00:21:26.24
burkard
The second thing, you know it might be more about building a portfolio. Third thing might be more about who you're associated with. I really want to get that credit on that film. I want to get that producer credit or whatever it is. I'm going go and edit something for free because I want to be associated with, you know, who knows, the Jimmy Chins of the world. I don't know.

00:21:43.93
burkard
And then the last thing might be something where it's – You know, it might just be fulfilling a personal dream. So I think it has to fulfill one of those criteria. And I'm just kind of spitballing here.

00:21:53.98
burkard
This isn't like, don't have this written down.

00:21:54.16
Aaron
Yeah.

00:21:54.73
Seth Macey
and

00:21:56.06
burkard
like reading a script, but i I think that like that's the general things that I would look at. There can be more, there can be less. If you make too many, it's going really hard to ever get anything through. um But yeah, I think that everybody kind of has to figure out what that is.

00:22:09.37
burkard
What is the trade-off? What's what's the value, the worth?

00:22:12.31
Seth Macey
Yeah, absolutely.

00:22:12.40
burkard
I think there was second part of your question. I forgot what that was already.

00:22:16.09
Seth Macey
I think it was, I tried to frame the question in a way that also spoke to, so you addressed the criteria.

00:22:22.97
burkard
right

00:22:23.20
Seth Macey
I guess it it also leans into, okay, when I've selected this thing, I'm giving up so much. So I'm damn well going to make sure I use my time as efficiently as possible.

00:22:34.73
Seth Macey
And I'm curious how you do that, avoid distractions, notice what's essential,

00:22:43.89
burkard
and you know that That's a scary one because I can vividly remember, say, the first time I made a film, a bigger film, Under an Arctic Sky. And i had I had committed to this project.

00:22:52.67
Aaron
Awesome.

00:22:54.60
burkard
It was huge. it was big for me. um It really like put my name out there and it was exciting, but I definitely had no clue how much the tour was going to ask of me and how, like how much was required for me to get this film, you know, so-called out there.

00:23:13.11
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

00:23:13.17
burkard
And of course, I, you know, we had it distributed. It was on Netflix is ball, ball, but like, I wanted to personally see it through and I wanted to show it everywhere. And so what I'm getting at is that that was a huge, like eye opener because I couldn't have even guessed how much that was going to take or the time it was going to take. So when I'm thinking about like, Oh, what am I going to get out of this? Because I, you know, had to leave, go do, you know, walk away from, or not, you know, be with these people.

00:23:40.58
burkard
Um, I think it's and it's an educational process. You're never going to really, um you know what and i mean? Like you're always, you don't know unless you've done that thing before. So there are things that I'm still doing that I've i've never done before, you know, certain trips.

00:23:53.16
Seth Macey
Yeah, you can't know what you don't know.

00:23:54.62
burkard
Yeah, you don't know what you don't know.

00:23:55.34
Aaron
Yeah.

00:23:55.46
burkard
and and And, you know, Aaron, you had mentioned, you know, like the training around a trip. And I'm like, yeah, like even that, sometimes you're you're signing up for something. You don't really know what's required, like the training that's required of me.

00:24:06.37
burkard
That's ah another full-time job sometimes, literally.

00:24:08.91
Aaron
yeah

00:24:09.80
burkard
So, um You don't know what you don't know, but then... I also think that you know having gone down some of these roads in the past, I feel more confident knowing what it will require, or maybe that I i over-delivered and I could dial it back, and maybe the next project isn't such a big one that it's like like that.

00:24:30.56
burkard
i'm I'm okay with it being a little less. um And I think that there's certain benchmarks things hit where I'm like, okay, this is worth more of my time. This is worth more of my time. I think the bigger question here maybe is When do you know when to quit? right When do you know when to pull back? Because the problem is that you get these projects where you're getting like green light, green light, red light, red light, green light, green light, green light, red light. you know you're You're kind of getting these these signs that you should move forward, but then a lot of signs that you should maybe stop.

00:25:00.80
burkard
And I guess what I'm saying is, say you're working on that film and then you're like, I want that next song or I want that. to, you know, I'm going to spend more money. This thing's going to be worth it. It's going to be it's going to pay for itself. And then it doesn't.

00:25:10.86
burkard
Right. So I guess knowing when to dial it back, um you're working on like a book or a film or a personal project of some type. I think knowing like when is too much investment too much and or when's it going to affect you emotionally, personally?

00:25:25.05
burkard
That's sort of what that film tour was. So I didn't realize that like it was just going to make me

00:25:27.80
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:25:30.67
burkard
feel crazy. I mean, spending months away from home, you know, showing this film everywhere and and doing, you know, European tours and whatever, India, New Zealand, like it's just a lot. So, um so I think that I, I filter things now through that perspective as well.

00:25:47.52
burkard
You know, how, yeah.

00:25:47.66
Aaron
So with your new film, what did you learn from that? Did you, were you able to look at the tour schedule? Was that an important piece and say like, Hey, I I've done this before.

00:25:53.34
burkard
Oh yeah.

00:25:56.99
burkard
Yeah.

00:25:57.58
Aaron
I want to make sure I feel happy about this.

00:26:00.09
burkard
Yeah, so I pretty much only toured it in the US and and I built the tours in the way that I like.

00:26:02.78
Seth Macey
Thank

00:26:02.86
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:26:06.32
burkard
I mean, I was doing, for for example, when we were doing Under Arctic Sky, I was in a like an RV, a rented RV doing like, you know, five, six cities in California.

00:26:17.31
burkard
And every night we do two to three screenings. So back to back to back, like a matinee. an evening and then a ah ah late show. Right. And I would like do a slideshow, a Q and a at every single one. I mean, I was for a ride. Like I, I, I was like losing my voice.

00:26:34.27
Aaron
Yeah.

00:26:34.40
burkard
um Anything anyway. So with this film, it was different though, because I knew right away, like a small project, you know, 20 minutes, it's not that long. It's not a 40 minute film. So the whole, so even, even in the length of time that the film plays, you know, you, you kind of have to dial, dial, dial it back.

00:26:51.87
burkard
to that like to match that length of time because you're only going be able to entertain an audience for so long. So inevitably, the film is shorter, the experience is shorter, the slideshow of the project is a little shorter.

00:27:03.31
burkard
It's not as long of an event, I guess.

00:27:05.93
Seth Macey
you

00:27:06.01
Aaron
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:27:06.53
burkard
And that being said, I was like, okay, I want to do a limited run. um you know I think that a big part of the strategy is always like, is your project going to be something that you're going to sell to a network?

00:27:17.49
burkard
and it's going to make its money that way? Or is this going to be something where the only money you're going to make is from the tour? Because a lot of times touring a film is the, the one of the number one ways you'll make an income from doing that.

00:27:28.57
burkard
um You're not going to get much from the sales, you know, especially if you don't have like a blockbuster or something crazy or a Red Bull film, right? um You're go you know, I'll maybe make like 2000, 3000 bucks from the, from the online sales, but the tour, you know, it can pay like 30 grand or 40 grand or something like that.

00:27:35.87
Aaron
Right. Interesting.

00:27:36.01
Seth Macey
Thank

00:27:47.10
Seth Macey
Wow.

00:27:47.14
burkard
Yeah.

00:27:48.10
Aaron
interesting

00:27:48.14
Seth Macey
Just rewind a bit.

00:27:48.20
burkard
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

00:27:49.86
Seth Macey
think you touched on a really interesting point is knowing when to quit, stop or pull back. That is such a hard skill to learn. And I'm speaking from experience, especially if you consider yourself a very driven and ambitious person, that quitting word or stopping, there's this guilt that comes with it. Have you ever experienced that when you've pulled the plug and how have you gotten over that, that feeling of, oh man, I didn't see this through.

00:28:13.26
burkard
Yeah, you know, i I don't know that I feel necessarily guilt in that situation, but i it's more of like a failure kind of thing. You know, you don't want to show your colors and you don't see that maybe like this thing.

00:28:23.27
Seth Macey
Right.

00:28:25.44
burkard
Like, ah yeah, i i I have an example of that. Like i I worked on a film called I Am Here, which was um a friend of mine on an expedition who kind of was dealing with alcoholism and stuff.

00:28:36.69
burkard
And I wanted to make this film really bad. We tried to kickstart it. and we couldn't raise the money and we had a sick trailer cut and everything and it looked so good and a great page for it yada yada yada we just couldn't raise the money you know it was just you know timing was off and i think that that heavier of a of a of a storyline maybe isn't as exciting to people you know because it was about like it was about cycling and you know friendship and abuse and alcoholism and things like that but but trying to inter what inner

00:29:05.48
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

00:29:08.81
burkard
interweave those things into adventure. So yeah, we you know shopped it around and shopped it around and shopped it around and kept it going. And yeah, ultimately it was an exercise in learning when to say like, hey, this is, I'm now losing money on this.

00:29:22.05
burkard
I'm not seeing any of that money come back. I'm not seeing any return. not I'm not seeing as many doors open as I would like. So I either need to curb it, save money, and then put money back into it later when when I have some money to spend, but not keep slowly bleeding myself.

00:29:38.12
burkard
And

00:29:38.57
Seth Macey
Yeah. Yeah.

00:29:39.17
burkard
I have that perspective, obviously, but yes, learning when to say no, it's just like a, it's, it's, that's like the hardest thing about that is it's only a learned trait.

00:29:48.29
Seth Macey
yeah

00:29:48.33
burkard
Like you're only going to know when when you know. Some of the other things when looking ahead and making a decision, you can you know gauge from friends. You can you can you know check in with your peer group, but really hard to kind of know when at the end of it to be like, hey, I've made this as good as I can and me putting two, three, $4,000 more dollars into it is not going improve it that much. That was always the thing is like if you put in that extra $10,000 into a film or into whatever, then you're like,

00:30:16.43
burkard
holy cow, is this is it going to actually make that much back, right?

00:30:20.91
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:30:21.72
Seth Macey
Yes.

00:30:21.73
burkard
That's kind how I'm trying to filter it now, which doesn't mean you want a crappy product, but you you just want to be a little more conscious of like, or I want to be a little more conscious of like, what is the return that I'll get?

00:30:31.63
Seth Macey
Yeah, and avoiding the law of diminishing returns. I think for the, maybe the antidote for people listening who maybe feel that guilt or that, oh, I just, I didn't see it through or I failed.

00:30:34.52
burkard
Yeah, exactly.

00:30:42.40
Seth Macey
I think the antidote for that is perhaps knowing that it's not wasted time because the result wasn't achieved. You still learned a ton of stuff. You mentioned your trailer cut. There was still skills learned and applied there.

00:30:52.89
burkard
Totally. One of my favorite trailers we've ever cut actually. And and my first foray into like looking into that type of narrative and and I did learn a lot. It was great.

00:31:01.87
Seth Macey
Right.

00:31:03.38
Aaron
And also looking in the mirror and just being honest with yourself, i think is important and saying like, Hey, I've pulled the plug on the last 10 projects. What's going on?

00:31:13.16
burkard
Yeah, totally.

00:31:13.97
Aaron
You know, and and and and just having an honest honest sort of conversation with the whys around things. And are my eyes bigger than my stomach here? Like, what why am I biting off too much that I can chew? Like, what's going on that I'm not following this through? Do I not have a good team around me?

00:31:32.57
Aaron
Do I not have the skills? How am I getting these leads and then dropping them?

00:31:36.42
burkard
You're spot on.

00:31:37.32
Aaron
Yeah, so I think sort of evaluating those things is it's definitely important.

00:31:43.62
burkard
and And I would and would also just just to also just say that like it is ah matter of kind of, I guess,

00:31:44.04
Aaron
Yeah.

00:31:44.69
Seth Macey
right.

00:31:54.81
burkard
Knowing when the right time is is there to like bring something on you know and kind of gauging. like I guess you you know you say you when I say the words, I want to make a film, all I'm thinking about is, oh man, that's like this six months of work.

00:32:09.67
burkard
You know what i mean? like I have a perspective of the time commitment.

00:32:10.52
Aaron
yeah

00:32:13.32
burkard
And it makes me fearful to to like a two embrace something like that fully, to commit to it, right? um Because because i'm I'm aware highly of the amount of time that it will commit. And I think that one of the issues, um ah just to go back to this, because it's such a good thought, is um when it's hard to learn to like say no.

00:32:35.51
burkard
Sometimes for me and maybe some other people in my shoes, you you also feel a little ashamed when you go, your next project is something smaller. You always want the next project to be bigger. How do you outdo yourself? Because that's what the world expects every time I've ever been in an event ever.

00:32:52.32
burkard
there's always the question of like, what's next? What are where are you going be in 10 years? And I'm all, and I always laugh because I'm like, it's as if it's not enough that I'm happy. And I love what I'm doing now.

00:33:02.66
burkard
And like, dude, I am at the ceiling. Like, I love my job. This is epic. I would, if I was having a podcast like this, doing a podcast like this in five years, I'd be stoked.

00:33:07.09
Aaron
Yeah.

00:33:10.93
burkard
Like, I don't, I don't need to like do the next thing.

00:33:11.88
Seth Macey
yeah

00:33:14.38
burkard
you know what ah So I think that there's, but there, but there is a little bit of like,

00:33:16.26
Aaron
yeah

00:33:20.67
burkard
personal shame sometimes when your like next project doesn't outdo the last one. 100% yeah.

00:33:26.09
Seth Macey
Have you ever felt that way personally? You mentioned people expect what's your next project is essentially implying, is it going to be bigger? Have you ever felt it needs to be bigger?

00:33:35.28
burkard
like i'm I'm literally sharing all this from experience. like i have I have felt that. i'm like, oh man, but this one's not like, you know like if if we if we say it's going to be like this big epic thing and people are expecting that, but they get this, like what does that mean? you know so Yeah, like it's different, you know, and I think that um it is.

00:33:51.28
Aaron
Yeah.

00:33:51.37
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:33:52.14
Aaron
its yeah

00:33:52.27
Seth Macey
You're chasing the dragon.

00:33:54.78
burkard
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

00:33:56.92
Aaron
It's kind of a ah mirror image of imposter syndrome. Instead of thinking like, oh, I shouldn't be here.

00:34:00.51
burkard
Right.

00:34:02.63
Aaron
I don't deserve to be here. Now it's like the person...

00:34:05.02
burkard
The imposter is me and I'm impostering myself.

00:34:07.83
Aaron
Yeah, that I'm a person that should be there.

00:34:08.72
burkard
Yeah.

00:34:11.32
Aaron
Like I should, I should up it a little bit more.

00:34:11.28
burkard
Yeah.

00:34:13.90
Aaron
So it's like, it's like this reverse sort of guilt or shame of like, I got to keep this going. Like I have a, I have a name.

00:34:19.74
burkard
And it's silly because it's, yeah, it's self-induced though.

00:34:22.04
Seth Macey
Thank you.

00:34:23.37
burkard
Like that's what's funny about it. Like nobody actually expects, nobody needs that. You know, like I, like I, in fact, you know, my favorite projects have been smaller, shorter ones that were free, you know, and that's like something that, you know, was available to everybody.

00:34:27.91
Aaron
Yeah.

00:34:38.56
burkard
um Those, those were the ones that actually like turned out the best. So yeah, I think it's like, it's a self-induced thing, I guess what I'm saying.

00:34:47.63
Seth Macey
A question I have is, you know, we've talked a lot, I guess we're touching on purpose here and, and you know, that why haven't we speak a lot about that having a why for doing things. I'm curious if having emotionally compelling reason or a why is always in the back of your mind when choosing to do something, or if there's something to be said for just doing cool, fun stuff without purpose.

00:35:09.89
burkard
I mean, i guess I would say like, what what does, where does cool fun stuff come from? Right? Like, it seems like it originates from from a desire and then that desire would if you pull that thread, it's gonna like reveal something else.

00:35:28.66
burkard
You know, that to me, I guess all I'm saying is that I think purpose is is in everything, sorry. It permeates everything.

00:35:35.55
Seth Macey
okay

00:35:36.22
burkard
And it's it's a part of um kind of all that we do and and all that we are, regardless so if we're just doing something for fun or we're doing something to make like money and it's a pure, you know, job type of thing.

00:35:48.09
burkard
um I think that purpose can still can still occupy both those spaces.

00:35:53.46
Seth Macey
Yeah, i guess meant I guess that begs the question then, would desiring or wanting to do something be synonymous with purpose or are those two distinct things?

00:36:02.42
burkard
Yeah, I mean, it yeah is purpose enough, right? Or is is desire, is playfulness enough?

00:36:05.78
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:36:07.86
burkard
um Yeah, I think so. You know, I remember a friend of mine, Keith Leszczynski, photographer, a great guy, he once had this, he was speaking and he had said, you know, in the beginning, every photographer, you know, they replicate, they copy, they replicate, they, they, they copy, they copy, they copy, they, they try to make their own thing. It stinks. They, they copy again. Like it's just, ah that's the process. Like that's how it kind of goes. And so, um and then eventually you find your own thing, you land on your own thing and your own two feet.

00:36:38.46
burkard
um And so I would say that like, It's important to do both. But I think that even if we're going out there because we saw a picture, we just want to go recreate it or we are inspired to play with our cameras. Like i i like this idea that play should be involved in everything. And so to kind of come back to that, like I really hope – that not that there isn't a there it doesn't have to be a definitive reason behind the behind why we pick up a camera and why we go shoot or why we find joy in trying to give ourselves a photo essay or go you know experiment with something.

00:37:15.29
burkard
It's the same thing with a bicycle, right? And this is kind of silly analogy, but... on the Forgotten Coast, we're riding on these beaches. There is no road. There's no trail. There's just an open beach. You can go anywhere you want. You go left. You go right.

00:37:28.14
burkard
You can go up that sand dune. And I've always thought about this, like when the only metric for success on a bike as an adult is speed. Like that's what it is, bike races. So it's about how fast do you go, right?

00:37:41.43
burkard
That's the only metric for success. What happened when we used to measure things and just joy, like just how fun it was. So bringing that back to the photography question of like, you know, is it enough to just go out and kind of you know, do something for the fun of it?

00:37:48.77
Aaron
Yeah, what's that?

00:37:56.27
burkard
Or I think that's a crucial thing. Like go out, go out with the act of just wanting to have joy.

00:37:58.77
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:38:02.20
burkard
That's it. Nothing else.

00:38:03.72
Seth Macey
Well said.

00:38:03.67
burkard
Not, know.

00:38:04.75
Seth Macey
That's something I've been writing recently in my journal logs is trying to transition from success being a performance-based thing to you showed up or you enjoyed this.

00:38:04.84
Aaron
yeah was and

00:38:16.49
Seth Macey
You had fun. It put a smile on your face. You had a great conversation today. ah you know Stuff like that.

00:38:20.05
burkard
Yeah.

00:38:21.62
Seth Macey
it's um It's perfect timing in my life.

00:38:25.80
burkard
That's like super important though too, it's like we is that we train ourselves to kind of measure things in certain ways.

00:38:27.81
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:38:33.42
burkard
And that that's been tough for me because I've i've given in sometimes to like measuring you know measuring myself with others or just not being proud of my work because it didn't you know get make that much or it didn't you know sell that well or whatever it was.

00:38:48.59
burkard
right and And it's not the metric. It's like it really isn't.

00:38:51.31
Seth Macey
Yeah. How badly do you think socials has amplified this, if at all?

00:38:55.61
burkard
Yeah, I do think a lot you know because we just go on there and compare and measure and measure and measure and measure and compare.

00:39:00.95
Seth Macey
right

00:39:01.07
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:39:03.49
burkard
And I think that's um you know usually when I'm left up to my own devices, like that's what i that's sometimes what I find. I'm like, oh man, I wish I was doing that. Wish I was doing that. Wish I you know wish i was creating that, whatever.

00:39:15.16
burkard
um But then I realized like, well, the point of that is that channel is to have real interaction and then go on there and I'll have an interaction with somebody.

00:39:21.55
Seth Macey
right

00:39:23.59
burkard
And then I feel like my faith is restored. So a little bit.

00:39:27.08
Seth Macey
yeah

00:39:27.38
burkard
So might I'm like, I'm like.

00:39:28.08
Seth Macey
i Back to going to success, that's a successful social media outing now as opposed to something else. It's, hey, I had a great conversation or I got inspired. That's a win for the day.

00:39:37.34
burkard
yeah exactly. Or somebody made me laugh. I think about that a lot. Like. i'm I'm, you know, I obviously am big on It's like a big part of, I mean, it's like really what I care about.

00:39:48.88
burkard
I care about connecting people. I like the comments on a post or what I share. That's cool. Like I like to inform people. I see that as like the bulletin board, but then the DMs to me, like that's where it goes down. Like I like to,

00:40:00.74
Seth Macey
Water cooler.

00:40:01.67
burkard
Yeah, it's i mean, it's funny. like People write jokes and like I'll share something and there's times where i'm like, dude, I'm literally laughing out loud. Thank you. like that That was sick.

00:40:09.30
Aaron
Yeah.

00:40:10.41
burkard
And that's like a gift. That really is. like Somebody made you laugh. like

00:40:14.46
Seth Macey
Right.

00:40:15.22
burkard
That's a big thing. good on those,

00:40:16.38
Aaron
Yeah. I think it sounds so obvious, but I think it's such an important point that I was having this discussion about music and maybe we could relate and and set up a long winded analogy, but with Spotify,

00:40:29.53
burkard
bro. I'm great with those.

00:40:32.19
Aaron
If, uh, if I'm making a great album and I put it on Spotify, but I'm not willing to connect, I'm not willing to go on tour. I'm not willing to practice. I'm not willing to do, I'm not going to make a lot of money.

00:40:40.68
burkard
Yep. Totally. Totally.

00:40:42.24
Aaron
We all have heard like the Spotify get, you know, gets everything. The artists get nothing. I think live music is really coming back.

00:40:46.73
burkard
yeah

00:40:50.16
Aaron
I mean, I can't remember a time where I, every time I opened my email, a band I love is like, they're in, they're in town.

00:40:50.84
burkard
totally

00:40:57.15
Aaron
Uh, it's just constant. But I think the shift is, oh we have to go out there and connect. Now we have to practice. We have to go do our craft. We have to interact with the audience. We have to make eye contact.

00:41:10.49
Aaron
And the better you are at that on stage, the better you are at connecting and me going to a ah venue and feeling like, feeling like the guy was singing or playing towards me versus just through earphones or in my car makes me a lifelong fan.

00:41:30.36
Aaron
And I think for, for you, it's gotta be one of your successes.

00:41:30.33
burkard
Yeah. Love that

00:41:35.73
Aaron
And I don't know if you've noticed it or it's just your natural thing is, but, yeah with, with a huge following making films, you're responding to DMS, you're jumping on a podcast, you're going on clubhouse, uh,

00:41:46.83
Aaron
which is just like a flash in the pan sort of app, but you're like, let's see, let's talk to people. And multiple times, if I remember at the time, but that sort of strength, it's not just about creating art.

00:41:51.57
burkard
that.

00:41:53.77
burkard
Yeah.

00:41:57.76
Aaron
It's not just about having a narrative. It's not just about putting out a fancy reel.

00:42:02.11
burkard
Yeah.

00:42:02.88
Aaron
To have success commercially, artistically, there has to be an element of networking. Would you agree?

00:42:10.05
burkard
hot 100%. Absolutely. i couldn't agree more. Yeah.

00:42:13.45
Aaron
And is there anything people can do to work on that? Like, what would you say that some of the struggles with that sort of interpersonal communication, what, what, what little pushes could we give to say like, Hey, try this.

00:42:16.57
burkard
Yeah. That's such a good point. You know, that's a great question.

00:42:28.19
burkard
I mean, finding general interest is always like my, I mean, that's like, goes back to how to win friends and influence people, you know, book type of thing is like, just find general interests.

00:42:31.35
Aaron
Hmm.

00:42:37.69
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

00:42:37.83
Aaron
Hmm.

00:42:39.70
burkard
You know, i when I'm,

00:42:40.91
Aaron
Hmm.

00:42:41.89
burkard
You know, if I'm in person with people, it's really, I'm pretty good to identify like, oh that person's wearing this kind of shoes, that kind of hat, you know, they're into this, blah, blah, blah. I've got to you know, ah there's a part of me, there's a story, there's a there's a way or person or something I know that might, I might be able to connect this person, you know, through that experience or whatever.

00:43:01.05
burkard
um And I just look for ways to identify. Like, I think you genuinely do have to be a people person, you know, that does help.

00:43:07.15
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:43:08.29
burkard
And it does help to not only find success, but when you're on set as a photographer shooting, it you need to be able to potentially lead a group of people. You know, if you want to be like that's one of the unwritten laws of like you know uh taking your work to a commercial level and having to kind of um work with the crew is like you're you're directing a crew and they're waiting on you and you're you're kind of having to give clear directions and you're having to you know be cheerful and admit stress you kind of got to you know keep a straight face or whatever um but yeah it connecting with people being a people person remembering names caring about them you know like

00:43:34.34
Seth Macey
Thank you.

00:43:42.99
burkard
treating everybody with respect and and, you know, whatever, whatever your truths are around that, I do think that that makes a big difference. and i And I would say like, you know, subtle ways to improve upon it.

00:43:53.02
burkard
Really, there's so many books about it. I would not not even be able to.

00:43:55.89
Seth Macey
just going ask you about this.

00:43:57.41
burkard
Yeah, I mean, I would say Essentialism is one of my favorite books.

00:43:58.14
Seth Macey
and Dale Carnegie's How to Influence Friends and Influence, How to Win Friends and Influence People. i was going to ask you what other resources have, like what other books do you like? What other resources do you dig into? Greg McKeown, we've talked about this the last like 10 episodes.

00:44:12.11
Aaron
yeah

00:44:12.79
burkard
yeah Yeah. Both his books are ah exceptional. And he you know he is more helping people to kind of get to their why. that's his whole that's his That's literally what he does for a living. It's a great book. I've recommended a hundred times. them There's Grit by Angela Duckworth. It's a great book too.

00:44:30.44
burkard
G-R-I-T. thats That one's awesome. um And then there's what... The Subtle Art of Not Giving an F is a great book too.

00:44:39.45
Aaron
An app.

00:44:40.57
burkard
um man i think it's Mark Manson. I can't remember who wrote that, but that one's really good.

00:44:42.71
Aaron
Yep.

00:44:44.37
burkard
I mean, there's I've got a whole library and there's a lot of them and I tend to like go back through. I also really love The Alchemist.

00:44:52.12
Aaron
Yeah.

00:44:52.05
burkard
That's a book that's like really meaningful to me and I've read it probably six times or something like that.

00:44:54.46
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:44:57.41
burkard
So.

00:44:57.54
Seth Macey
What have you taken away the most from the concept of essentialism?

00:44:57.74
Aaron
Yeah.

00:45:00.34
Seth Macey
I actually have in my notes, do you, one of my questions was, do you make decisions based on, is this a nine out of 10 on the important scale, which is, you know,

00:45:08.54
Aaron
Yeah.

00:45:09.01
burkard
so think I mean, the thing I took away the most from essentialism, hands down, was learning to say no is actually learning to say yes to what you want.

00:45:18.73
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

00:45:18.88
burkard
I mean, i mean i i don't even want to expand upon that because I think that it's like, it's just so good as it is.

00:45:19.39
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:45:24.22
burkard
But that is the truth that I was like, this is the kernel. I'm taking this one. And I've applied that to my life a lot.

00:45:31.15
Seth Macey
Yeah, I really liked in that too. If you don't prioritize your life, somebody else will.

00:45:35.07
burkard
ah that's ah that's a heavy one. That one kind of hits you deeply, though.

00:45:36.98
Aaron
yeah

00:45:38.31
burkard
You're like, ooh. Yeah.

00:45:39.84
Seth Macey
And that stems with that, that goes hand in hand with people pleasing, wanting to say yes to everybody. and just, who's, ah yeah it gets to point where like, am i living my life or somebody else's?

00:45:46.15
burkard
yeah

00:45:51.17
burkard
Yeah. And i'm i that's I've lived that m MO before, you know, and it's not a great one. So I'm just, you know, as somebody who kind of grew up in that a family dynamic and, you know, wanted to be a people pleaser, you know, I definitely feel like I've at times maybe given of my personal time um or, you know, kind of spent too much energy trying to make people happy that just aren't happy.

00:45:57.13
Seth Macey
How so?

00:46:19.63
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

00:46:20.96
burkard
And weren't meant to be happy, whether it be, um you know, athletes I worked with or or people that, you know, um clients I worked with that like were unsavory and just, you know, you, you, you know, take it personally, you know, a lot of times you think it's a you thing.

00:46:21.20
Aaron
Yeah.

00:46:36.00
burkard
And, um and sometimes it's, it's another people, it's an other people thing. um And yeah, you just, I think that that people pleasing mentality is not great when when it's combined with somebody who's like a high achiever.

00:46:51.45
Seth Macey
Right. No doubt.

00:46:52.13
burkard
um Just, you know, I think it's a, can be a deadly cocktail, but yeah.

00:46:56.02
Seth Macey
no doubt

00:46:57.58
Aaron
Moving into ah bit of marketing and ah commercial photography and the state of social media, I found this as a, as a creator, this sort of argument that happens in my brain where I go, i have a good idea for this shoot.

00:47:12.31
Aaron
And then I go, but that's not going to do well.

00:47:16.21
burkard
Right.

00:47:17.07
Aaron
And

00:47:17.28
burkard
That's yeah, that's that's rough.

00:47:19.73
Aaron
I'm curious ah what you find more paramount. I do feel like we're at a point where I think companies are getting into the idea or or coming coming out from underwater in the sense of, all right, views aren't everything. It's kind of like, where where do those views turn into stuff? And are we connecting with the right people that like the right stuff? So if we're just going to make a funny video of...

00:47:45.27
Aaron
you know, someone getting kicked in the nuts because it's going to get 4 million views. Is that going to sell our jacket?

00:47:49.57
Seth Macey
Thank you.

00:47:51.38
burkard
Right, right.

00:47:52.24
Aaron
And so the the question becomes when when creators are trying to create and they get stuck in this sort of, I want to create something that gets a lot of views so I can prove that one metric.

00:47:52.74
burkard
Mm-hmm.

00:48:06.50
Aaron
that one metric to them, like, look, my thing got a million views. That's great. But do you feel like we're a little bit lost in like swimming and kind of suffocating with what are we looking at actually?

00:48:18.56
Aaron
And what's everyone trying to actually accomplish here?

00:48:21.72
burkard
Yeah, and I would say that totally is dependent. that That answer would depend upon if this is a branded piece of content that is, or or not a branded piece of content, but something that you're going out to do for a brand, right?

00:48:36.01
burkard
And the objective is for the brand, or if this is for me personally, right?

00:48:36.22
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:48:40.07
burkard
If it's for me personally, I really, really try to stay away from anything that I feel like is is some click-baity thing.

00:48:49.44
Aaron
Yeah.

00:48:49.41
burkard
Like, you know, I don't need to like stretch the mountains in my video and throw it on the internet in a reel or do things like that.

00:48:49.75
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:48:56.67
burkard
I don't need to like, you know, replay the last, you know, 10 of my best images like 100 times and, you know, whatever. So I think at the end of the day,

00:49:08.11
burkard
it comes down to really like who's it for and what's the purpose a lot of times yeah like there's a need to hit some um algorithmic uh you know whatever the algorithm roulette or whatever it is and get something that goes viral and try to spread the word you know but for me personally i don't know that i'm like really trying to achieve that i'd rather

00:49:14.19
Seth Macey
Thank

00:49:29.37
burkard
I'd rather, I mean, because the thing that's weird is if it does go and and viral and gets a million views, those aren't like core consumers. You know, those aren't necessarily people that you even care about. They might be people who tapped on something.

00:49:39.68
burkard
It doesn't mean they're following you at all.

00:49:41.78
Aaron
Right. Yeah.

00:49:41.83
burkard
Like it doesn't actually mean that you're moving a product or you're making more for your life or you're, you know, creating an income. I don't, you know, it doesn't buy any of those metrics that we're measuring or whatever filters, like it's not hitting those marks.

00:49:48.89
Aaron
yeah

00:49:53.15
burkard
So A number doesn't mean anything to me personally. I know full well that you know what you know the economy of social media is just time.

00:50:05.01
burkard
It's all time-based, right? So it's how much time is any one person spending on your piece of content, right? How much time are they looking at it? How much time are they watching it?

00:50:16.10
burkard
And that time is then what is calibrated as valuable. And that's what the algorithm is. moves towards. And sadly, the stuff that we spend the most time on is what enrages us.

00:50:28.29
burkard
And so this idea of like rage bait, you know, has become its own thing.

00:50:28.42
Aaron
Yeah.

00:50:31.97
burkard
And it's just is what it is like human being human beings, you know, when Instagram was a photo sharing app,

00:50:33.74
Aaron
Yep.

00:50:40.59
burkard
that's what people don't really realize. Like when it was that, that's when it was incredible, but that's so long ago.

00:50:46.32
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:50:47.78
burkard
So, so, so long ago, you know, i mean, when it became a place where news and things like that and and brands, you know, and stuff like before all of that, when it was something else, that's when it was for me different, you know, not now.

00:50:48.32
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:51:02.21
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

00:51:04.66
burkard
um So yeah, I would say like,

00:51:04.82
Aaron
Yeah.

00:51:07.30
burkard
I know that I veered way off your question, but I just, I feel like in some capacity, those things are all pertinent and they're relevant.

00:51:09.08
Aaron
No, no, no, that's fine.

00:51:15.72
burkard
And I do think that it it just kind of depends, you know, really on, what is the what is the end goal and how do we measure that i would say something for me for my career and life that's been really helpful when talking to brands or pitching clients or doing anything is is always kind of stating or trying to identify what is the end goal of this like how would you client whatever define or me maybe i'm asking myself what is the what do we define success as in this situation?

00:51:47.89
burkard
And if we can figure that out, then we have like a marker and that can be our, you know, our GPS point. And now I've got to draw a roadmap from where we are now here to get there. And so that idea of being able to identify what a successful partnership looks like, what a successful shoot looks like, what a successful thing looks like, you can draw a roadmap.

00:52:08.90
burkard
Without it, you can't.

00:52:10.40
Aaron
Yeah, that's a really important question, I think, to not be scared to ask.

00:52:10.64
burkard
And so it's super important It's a super, the problem, the problem is that eight times out of 10, I get like a, yeah, cool, we'll circle back. And then I never hear anything ever.

00:52:23.37
burkard
and And this is an issue because, and i again, i'm I know I'm veering way out in left field here, but ah this is important to me, but this is an issue because

00:52:28.60
Aaron
Yeah, yeah.

00:52:28.92
Seth Macey
That's yeah

00:52:32.83
burkard
then people don't want to be held accountable right nobody wants to be held accountable for the project if it doesn't fail or if it if it doesn't work out right doesn't fail sounds or really uh like bad but if it doesn't work out right there's someone to blame

00:52:41.01
Aaron
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:52:48.35
burkard
and people aren't as bold as they used to be you know i remember going into client meetings and you know being this young and upcoming photographer and having a crazy wild idea that you know we're gonna do and it was exciting and you know the legal department might be pissed off but it's okay and so anyway people just nowadays feels like um less risks are taken and people don't want to be, have the finger pointed at them.

00:53:15.44
burkard
So they kind of want to leave it open-ended. And if you leave it open-ended, then you can blame anybody.

00:53:17.43
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. yeah

00:53:19.71
burkard
And so, so anyway, I really try point being to work backwards from the end goal. And I think that to answer your question, I would filter those two situations backwards from the end goal and be like, well, what is my goal here? Is it just to put out something personal for me? I don't care who it's for. It's, it's, you know, cause I'm proud of it. Or is this because I need to push something, promote something, but I do feel like it is an archaic.

00:53:42.38
burkard
um It is an archaic model to look at like the number of likes and think that that that that's what creates value or, all content has to be something that's like fast hitting and it just feels really gross in some way

00:53:55.33
Aaron
Yeah. ah Well said. i think Seth, it's the first time you're outnumbered by two people that just go like into the, yeah.

00:54:03.61
Seth Macey
versions You diverge so hard that you converge, you come back.

00:54:05.51
Aaron
and Into the ether set.

00:54:06.99
burkard
oh i'm sorry

00:54:08.20
Aaron
No, it's great.

00:54:08.27
Seth Macey
no yeah I love tangents.

00:54:09.37
Aaron
ah I love it. Seth is a, Seth's just a master over the last three years with me. Just like, let's bring it back.

00:54:18.09
Seth Macey
I bring my mental fishing rod and just hook them and reel them in, let them go.

00:54:19.98
Aaron
Yeah. He's, he's caught me a few times. He's caught me a few times.

00:54:24.98
Seth Macey
i I found myself in this scenario a couple times, Chris, where you get a you get a boilerplate answer, let's say, yeah, let's circle back or something along those lines. And a part of you knows that the odds of circling back are very unlikely because things get lost in bureaucracy, etc.

00:54:42.91
burkard
yeah

00:54:44.22
Seth Macey
Obviously, their desired outcome is important, but I've often found myself knowing that, okay, it's unlikely that we're going to circle back. I should push an idea that I have just to get things moving and to take charge.

00:54:59.92
Seth Macey
How do you find that balance?

00:55:01.53
burkard
Totally. So that, that does, that's often what has to happen, right?

00:55:04.86
Seth Macey
Right.

00:55:05.48
burkard
That's, that's the path of least resistance is that you then come up with the idea and you kind of put it in front of them you sell them on it. But what sucks is like, it's it's still that kind of like plausible deniability situation, you know, where nobody ever nobody ever told you what they really wanted.

00:55:17.35
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:55:21.02
burkard
So you just then had to kind of like play marketing for them and kind of figure it out.

00:55:25.99
Seth Macey
Right. Yeah.

00:55:26.88
burkard
And it's like, you have to use this weird, like, you know, you're sort of interviewing them and you're kind of probing them and fit, you know, and and I agree that that is probably what happens. Put an idea in front of it, front of them, maybe one that's not as risky as you had first hoped or not as cool, but, know,

00:55:42.40
burkard
it's going to work and you know, whatever, kind of play it safe a little bit, I find.

00:55:44.38
Seth Macey
yeah

00:55:46.69
burkard
And that's sort of the issue we're seeing a lot is the content so homogenized, because everybody just wants to play it safe.

00:55:50.99
Aaron
Yeah.

00:55:52.66
Seth Macey
Yeah, I don't know if this is great advice and maybe not on large scale for giant projects, but I've found myself a couple times being like, I think this is a great idea. I will take the blame for it if it doesn't pan out just so that we do it just so that we do something.

00:56:06.14
burkard
Yeah. yeah

00:56:08.59
Seth Macey
You know, if in in the sense of if this doesn't work out, it's not a huge loss. Like I'm not getting sued, but I'm okay taking the heat if it's just the outcome doesn't hit it. And then also like for my personality, it puts a little bit of a fire underneath me to let's make this work.

00:56:22.62
burkard
Yeah. Yeah. Let's make this sick. I love that. i agree.

00:56:27.43
Aaron
Yeah.

00:56:27.68
Seth Macey
You know, if you take the responsibility away from people in a low stakes environment, maybe you up the chance of the project or the marketing campaign, what have you, maybe you up the chances of that happening.

00:56:41.09
burkard
Mm-hmm.

00:56:42.57
Seth Macey
Just a thought.

00:56:42.81
burkard
Yeah. I think that like you that, that keyword that you said, like low consequences situation, that's the best.

00:56:48.17
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:56:49.57
burkard
That's where, that's really where art can thrive and creativity can thrive. Because I feel like um one of the things that I've thought about over the years, having ah had a lot of people, assistants work for me and, and or interns probably 20, 30 over the past I don't know, 16 years something like that is is when I'm but um trying to bring somebody through the ranks from being like a lowly you you know a person who's helping me ship books or or pack for trips or whatever to like a photo assistant whatever it is, I'm trying to put them in situations where it is loads consequence, where they can be risky, where they can really play with the camera.

00:57:26.83
burkard
And I'm the one you know shooting because if we're shooting on a job together, I'll be the one who's shooting all like the key art and the stuff that we need to do. And they get they just get to go and like snipe from from some fun angle, right?

00:57:39.08
burkard
Take the risk, play.

00:57:39.17
Seth Macey
Right.

00:57:40.59
burkard
And i I offer that um because that is what teaches them how to like experience exercise that muscle. I've learned that if you put somebody right into a rigid place and you're like, okay, you're going to assist me before, like you just you're going to do exactly what i'm going to tell you. You're going to you know shoot at this, at you know bla blah, blah, blah.

00:57:58.56
burkard
That's cool and that works for some people and I know most photographers might operate that way. It's like they're just a mimic of you but I'm like, no, I want to see what this person does when they're given creative freedom

00:58:09.85
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:58:09.87
burkard
Because I want to see how creative they can be. I want to see, I don't want a mimic of me. I want and somebody who is assisting in this situation, right?

00:58:17.84
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:58:18.11
burkard
And that's been really cool. That's a really cool exercise to do and and to kind of, you know, support and bring up people. And I've really been able to witness a handful of folks just like blossom from that.

00:58:29.11
Seth Macey
No doubt. It's clear that you value creative autonomy and boldness, people being bold and taking creative chances. I'm getting that vibe. My question for you, in terms of photo assistance is what is the, what's been the common soft skill personality trait separate from creative skill that has made your assistants stand out positively to you?

00:58:56.42
burkard
Excellent question. There was one one old you know commercial photographer who had meant who had said this before, and it it really struck me. They were like, a good assistant is the person who knows what you need before you need it.

00:59:11.51
Seth Macey
Right.

00:59:12.09
burkard
And that's the truth. um Somebody who's really good, they kind of they they know what you need before you need it. You know you you reach over to them you're like, oh, man, Did you see my water bottle in the car? they're like, oh, yep, I did. i I grabbed it for you. It's right by your bed. And you're like, oh, dude, thank you.

00:59:27.29
burkard
like I mean, just like little shit like that. like I mean, it's not about like, oh, can you grab me this lens?

00:59:29.90
Aaron
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:59:32.15
burkard
and Maybe they grabbed the wrong lens and it takes, what, five seconds to get the other one? Who cares? Like that that's not a big deal to me.

00:59:37.87
Seth Macey
right

00:59:38.21
burkard
I'd rather have somebody that is a good hang and a good conversationalist. Like I need to have a good conversationalist because I think, you know, decompressing after a shoot is a big deal or after a project or after an expedition, I want to be able to chat with somebody and like have similar interests. I need somebody who is like physically fit and somebody who who is able to keep up.

00:59:59.97
burkard
You know, I'm not necessarily thinking that we need to be on equal terms, but like just somebody who prioritizes that. um And then, yeah, that, that trait really of just like knowing what you need for you.

01:00:12.40
burkard
Cause you're going to spend more time with this person sometimes in your own family, right. in um In a month maybe or whatever. um At least on some of the projects I've done where it's,

01:00:21.93
Seth Macey
Yep.

01:00:22.42
burkard
been like that. And ah not going to lie, I've probably had to share a bed with most of the people that I've worked with also just because, you know, we're in a boat somewhere and ah wherever we are and it's tight quarters or, you know, shared hotel from some, you know, cheap gig or something like that.

01:00:33.07
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

01:00:37.24
Seth Macey
yeah

01:00:38.41
burkard
And that's just the truth. And like, if, if there, if a person can't hang in that situation, I don't, um I don't think they're going to vibe with me. Well,

01:00:45.84
Aaron
yeah

01:00:46.74
Seth Macey
Rewinding way back to the start of our conversation, you had mentioned there was a period in your life where you just weren't making, think your words were iconic, meaningful imagery. Not to go into that. I want to know what is iconic, meaningful, powerful imagery to you that you know is legacy portfoli like you're in your legacy portfolio.

01:01:10.19
burkard
You know, it's, it's, it's also, it's funny because there's probably images I've shot in the last couple of years that are maybe technically better and or made even might've made me more money, I guess I'd say.

01:01:25.39
burkard
But like, for example, like, you know, a photo of somebody holding an iPad that I might've shot for Apple or something like that. Like, yeah, like that photo probably made me more money. Right. But I really try to filter like, what is an iconic image? what What's a career worthy image? What's your portfolio photo is like, what are the images that support each other that really show what represents you.

01:01:47.18
burkard
It's not about you my range. I don't set, you know, my my portfolio, like my like 10 best iconic images, there's not like a single commercial photo in there.

01:01:57.39
burkard
There's nobody holding a bottle of something or whatever.

01:01:57.88
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

01:02:00.35
burkard
It's like, These are the images that define who I am as a person, you know, and it's mostly like early Arctic surf images, you know, photographs that are that are something about, you know, ah ah an image that feels resonant with me as a photographer and almost almost like if the world And, you you know, for what it's worth, like, this is just something that I've thought about a lot is like, if the world finds just 10 images of yours, what would they want to see long after you're gone?

01:02:32.07
Seth Macey
Great question.

01:02:32.09
burkard
You know, somebody opens a book and it's a page on, on, you know, whatever, Seth Macy.

01:02:37.24
Aaron
Yeah.

01:02:39.07
burkard
It's like, what do you, like what do you want them to see in that page?

01:02:40.21
Seth Macey
post about that because I'd like to think about that.

01:02:42.63
Aaron
Yeah.

01:02:44.03
burkard
You get one page in a book. That's it.

01:02:46.36
Seth Macey
Yeah.

01:02:46.45
burkard
That's it. You know, what's going to be?

01:02:48.42
Aaron
Low angled selfies.

01:02:50.06
burkard
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:02:50.59
Aaron
ah

01:02:51.10
Seth Macey
Yeah.

01:02:51.24
burkard
Bathroom.

01:02:51.37
Aaron
chris

01:02:51.46
Seth Macey
iPhone front of camera double chin.

01:02:51.79
burkard
You

01:02:52.62
Aaron
Yeah. Double chin selfies. Yeah.

01:02:55.88
Seth Macey
That is a great question.

01:02:55.92
burkard
know mean?

01:02:56.86
Seth Macey
We're not trying to make you take a hard left there with comedy. No, that's a great question. and That's something I'm going to think about i when we get off this recording for sure. And I think people listening should as well.

01:03:10.36
Aaron
I have a good question. It's kind of, well, I shouldn't, I patted myself on the back.

01:03:14.67
Seth Macey
Could be horrible.

01:03:15.00
Aaron
But by good question, I mean, I think it's fun. A fun question. I usually play this game where it's like, what bands of the past, if they came out today, would be famous and make it?

01:03:27.41
Aaron
And some are easier than others. And some are up to debate.

01:03:32.66
burkard
Oh dear.

01:03:34.12
Aaron
right but we're not gonna we can do the music thing but i have a question timing is a lot of everything uh you came out at a certain time and if you started today as a 20 year old What skills then do you think would help you to succeed now?

01:03:48.11
Seth Macey
you

01:03:55.40
Aaron
And do you think it's a, I mean, it is a different ball game, but what what do you think you would do differently to have the push that you've had?

01:04:09.74
Aaron
Or, i mean, if we're if you wanted to be honest or felt like it, that timing is a lot of it and luck is a lot of it. And the timing of social media and the things that I got into really did help me. And today's a different ballgame.

01:04:27.84
burkard
So the question is, what would I do now to do it? but would I, how would I start my career now to do what I'm doing now?

01:04:32.25
Aaron
Do you think, do you think you would be as successful if you started now and, or, and if yes, what skills would push you through no matter what, what cream would rise to the top?

01:04:42.06
burkard
hi ah hundred percent I would be as successful. i just Who knows I would be a photographer?

01:04:46.33
Aaron
There you go.

01:04:48.94
Aaron
Yeah.

01:04:49.55
burkard
See, that's the difference, right?

01:04:49.84
Aaron
Yeah.

01:04:50.59
burkard
It's like there's so there's certain people who are just going to be good at things because they care about those things and they work for them and they work hard for them or they they practice them, right?

01:04:50.92
Aaron
Yeah.

01:04:50.91
Seth Macey
Yeah.

01:04:59.96
burkard
And they they respect them. And I think that the reality is, yeah, maybe when I started my career, I thought that like photography was the linear path. But for me, it was never about success or fame or making money.

01:05:12.79
burkard
I just grew in really small town and I wanted to get out of that town.

01:05:13.31
Seth Macey
right

01:05:16.17
burkard
I wanted to see the world. That was the was the origin, right?

01:05:18.57
Seth Macey
yeah

01:05:19.93
burkard
It wasn't like, and I fear anybody starting a career now career now or getting on social media now being like, I want to do this to make money.

01:05:20.35
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh.

01:05:29.53
burkard
Like, I just don't think that that's ever been the right mindset, even when there was an opportunity to do so, you know, or whatever. I just don't think that that's the mindset. So anybody I know who does it authentically and who lives a life like this, it's like, you know, they're, they're,

01:05:39.10
Seth Macey
Yeah.

01:05:47.72
burkard
They don't care about those. They or they didn't care about those types of things in the beginning. I can't speak to them now. um But yeah, for me, i think that what I've realized is, you know, being a photographer and having that be your only skill makes you feel so limited.

01:06:00.73
burkard
And so over the years, I've really tried to hone my voice to be a speaker and somebody who can advocate for my own stories and tell my own stories and entertain people.

01:06:05.93
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

01:06:11.09
burkard
um i I've worked, you know, at being a host. And so i've guided and toured and hosted shows and whatnot. And yeah, And, you know, beyond that, there's a bunch of other kind of pillars of my business with like, you know workshops and other things. So all I'm saying is that um there are different, I think, hats we can wear and different things that entertain us and and and keep us excited and keep us joyous. And I mean, these days, you know, even the idea of, you know, having been a historian would be rad.

01:06:41.31
burkard
I've always loved the, I love geology. I've loved, you know, history. I think like that would have been a cool career path. It's just a funny thing because

01:06:47.27
Seth Macey
What kind of history do you like?

01:06:48.84
burkard
i mean all I mean, mostly geology. is history When history coincides with geology, I'm excited, but i love rocks and I love studying rocks. I love, obviously, volcanoes and just the understanding of the

01:06:59.71
Seth Macey
Well, you're on a giant one.

01:07:01.24
burkard
Yeah, understanding the landscapes that I'm in.

01:07:03.90
Seth Macey
Yeah.

01:07:03.95
burkard
So I guess what I'm saying is like the older I get, the less the less likely I'd even want to do what I did early in my life. It's like hilarious because and the more I go this direction, I'm like, well, that was that was cool, but that's like version one, you know?

01:07:11.19
Aaron
yeah

01:07:18.18
Aaron
Yeah.

01:07:18.74
Seth Macey
yeah

01:07:18.80
Aaron
Yeah.

01:07:19.06
burkard
um And I don't even know if the fastest way to get to where I am now was to do that.

01:07:23.65
Seth Macey
Interesting.

01:07:23.72
Aaron
Right.

01:07:24.60
Seth Macey
Do you, think what you're saying is that, you know, success, I'm doing quote fingers for people can't see, is just a byproduct of really digging into something that you care and are interested in

01:07:24.64
Aaron
Right.

01:07:36.68
Seth Macey
And your point about getting into this for making money is so interesting. I mean, you can make way more just doing something else. You can be an investment banker or something or...

01:07:46.27
burkard
Of course.

01:07:47.30
Seth Macey
learn how to trade futures or something wacky like that. ah I do want to ask you, because you're an excellent speaker, you're were very articulate. That's a skill. That's a skill that comes just with repetition, with speaking, with doing podcasts, with doing seminars, with doing films, etc.

01:08:03.93
burkard
first

01:08:04.66
Seth Macey
How else have you... worked that skill to a point where you're avoiding filler words, you're able to structure concept to ah dictation, word of mouth, saying the proper things.

01:08:17.94
Seth Macey
Are there other resources beyond just repetition that have helped you excel at that skill? Because Our language and the way we communicate is so important, written and orally, because it's how we convey what we're trying to get across to companies we're trying to pitch, to friends, to relationships.

01:08:33.97
Seth Macey
It's really the one of the cornerstones of our...

01:08:38.64
burkard
It is. It's the cornerstone of of all like business and everything.

01:08:42.21
Seth Macey
Yeah, I'll let you speak on this.

01:08:44.21
burkard
mean, all all I would say, you asked about like, you know, how can you work it out? How can you work it? Right. How can you work it like a muscle? Can you train it? Do you, is it something you're practicing? Are you going out, you know?

01:08:55.22
burkard
And the answer is, yeah, you you are, but you need to look at it in a different way. I look at it like it's a, you know, we're all just comedians and this is our bit. right? It's a bit like you get on a call and you're going to pitch an idea. It's a bit, you're going to get up on stage and you're going to share your 10 best photos with some funny stories in between and some moments of, you know, laughter and whatever, yeah you, you, all you really need is self-confidence. And then the bit, the bit is just basically where you practice and you practice and you, what you try to do, which, you know being on a podcast is not a great you know reflection upon what it's like to

01:09:31.18
burkard
to public speak, but you what you try to do is you try to refine it down to just the finite amount of words that you need, just a few, right? So the stories are tighter.

01:09:39.73
Seth Macey
Thank you.

01:09:41.10
burkard
The jokes are ah quicker. Everything is a little bit more tuned in. And that's kind of how I think a good presentation or public speaking thing goes. It's like, it doesn't have to be fast paced and intense and talking a million miles a minute. It can be slow and delivered well with execution.

01:09:58.60
burkard
right and and i And I do know full well that it just you know the more repetition you do, the better.

01:09:59.28
Seth Macey
right

01:10:05.50
burkard
Nowadays, I feel like it's it's kind of a bit of a muscle that's been really worked out. And so I feel pretty comfortable jumping up and diving right into a story and kind of knowing the points, you know.

01:10:17.98
burkard
And when you have images to guide you, it really helps. That's the one thing. It's like as a photographer, if you have photographs, you can be like, oh, yeah.

01:10:21.75
Seth Macey
Right.

01:10:24.17
burkard
and so this, you can even describe the photo for a second or whatever it is, let your mind reset and then dive into this other, you know. But what you don't see is blank, you know, and then you click the slide and then it's something crazy or whatever.

01:10:37.31
burkard
So it it can be a bit, you know, and the images and the video can work as like your, you know, pieces finding that rhythm. And I think that that's kind of part of it, right, is is really working through it.

01:10:50.14
burkard
And yeah, it'll be painful at first, for sure.

01:10:52.66
Seth Macey
Yeah. The other thing you mentioned prior to me asking this question was ah your interests diverge. And this is something I've thought a lot about in the sense of I've tried to kill my identity in the sense of i feel like we can get wrapped up saying I am a photographer and staying in a lane.

01:11:12.82
Seth Macey
As opposed to, I'm so many other things.

01:11:13.15
Aaron
Yeah.

01:11:17.06
Seth Macey
I am a surfer. I am a filmmaker. I'm a marketer. I'm a whatever. Have you felt like you've needed to shed and identity before so that you can freely explore into other territory?

01:11:31.41
burkard
um Yeah, yeah. You know, I don't, I don't.

01:11:33.76
Seth Macey
That's the best way I can phrase the question.

01:11:35.18
burkard
so they know That's like a beautiful, you you said it in like a very poetic way.

01:11:37.14
Aaron
yeah

01:11:38.26
burkard
the end Like, am I going to like, you know, shed this chrysalis and become the butterfly or whatever? Yeah.

01:11:43.95
Seth Macey
Because we are constantly changing, right?

01:11:44.12
Aaron
Yeah.

01:11:45.71
Seth Macey
And I mean, I feel like I've been doing photography for 10 years.

01:11:46.31
burkard
Yeah.

01:11:48.88
Seth Macey
I'm a photographer. Maybe you like hate it. and I'm not speaking to you. I'm saying you in general, somebody listening.

01:11:53.29
burkard
right

01:11:53.85
Seth Macey
And it can be so hard to change lanes and just I'm i'm more than

01:11:53.90
burkard
I really, well, and I grew up, I grew up around a lot of, ah lot of lifers. You know, I would go to the beach as a surf photographer and see dudes who had been doing it for 40 years, you know, longer than I've been alive.

01:12:05.79
Seth Macey
that. Uh-huh.

01:12:06.89
burkard
And I'm like, wow, that's, they found their thing. That's rad. Nothing wrong with that. That's awesome. But, but to me, I was like, I don't want that. I don't want to be, a there has to be something else. You know, this is fun, but this isn't everything.

01:12:20.94
burkard
And so I got scared of that.

01:12:21.39
Seth Macey
Right.

01:12:23.85
burkard
And I really, i really tried to think about, okay, well, if photography will take me this far, then what will being an author do? And then what will being a speaker do? And then what will, you know, giving a TED talk to or whatever it is like, it's just, you're looking at, you're looking at levels. And what's cool is like,

01:12:41.25
burkard
yeah, I've kind of drugged, I've drugged the photography career along with me. But to me, i feel like that's like one of the most minimal offerings. There's so many, there's so many other better photographers than me out there um that are really talented and awesome.

01:12:50.40
Seth Macey
right

01:12:55.57
burkard
And, but I do think that the thing is the stories take the photography further. And,

01:12:59.45
Aaron
Yeah.

01:12:59.90
burkard
This takes this. and you know when you're And when you're trying to bring in what you know and what you've experienced you know working and working in this industry now and sharing that with brands and consulting, and you know you you start to wear a bunch of different hats and it's fun.

01:13:12.97
burkard
like It becomes fun because you're not limited by just one outlet.

01:13:13.74
Seth Macey
and

01:13:18.87
Seth Macey
Yeah, it becomes, I'm not Chris Burkhardt, the photographer, I'm Chris.

01:13:19.04
burkard
and ahead. Yeah,

01:13:24.99
Seth Macey
And it's all these levels, as you call them, are a means for self-discovery in the story of your life, essentially.

01:13:25.05
burkard
I'm just...

01:13:26.85
Aaron
yeah

01:13:30.72
burkard
Yeah.

01:13:32.37
Seth Macey
Yeah.

01:13:32.84
Aaron
Yeah.

01:13:32.91
burkard
Yeah. And it's a bunch of hats.

01:13:33.24
Aaron
Here's my umbrella. Here's oh here's all my things.

01:13:34.95
burkard
Yeah. And I also think, you know, imagine the moment when you used photography as an outlet, like a creative outlet, maybe there was life was stressful and this was fun to do. And I don't know, you, you, you know, were with your friends, you know, going surfing up the coast of California and this was your spot in this, you know, in this group of dudes or whatever it was.

01:13:51.44
Seth Macey
Yeah, absolutely.

01:13:54.07
burkard
So I think that when it goes from being this outlet to then being your career, and you have nothing else, it's challenging. And I like to like mix around. Like one day I'm working on a book that I'm writing for Chronicle Books. And the next day I'm i'm working on a presentation.

01:14:10.27
burkard
And then the next day, you know we're talking about shooting something. And I just, I like that I get to do these different things. They they make me, they keep me entertained, right?

01:14:18.19
Aaron
keeps it fresh right yeah definitely yeah uh oh go ahead what well i was gonna maybe save this for the end but i'm curious yeah we we're coming up on the end so ah you have two sons all said and done what messaging do you want to leave with them about earth nature

01:14:19.09
Seth Macey
yeah absolutely what's your, I

01:14:29.64
Seth Macey
i think we're coming up on the end.

01:14:35.10
burkard
Mm-hmm.

01:14:44.29
Aaron
adventure and beyond your sons, your following people that will look up to you mentorships, mentors, uh, young photographers that find you for the first time. What is the, if you can slim it down to a, to a, a paragraph, I'll give you a long paragraph, slim it down to a long paragraph.

01:15:03.72
Aaron
Uh,

01:15:04.30
Seth Macey
Are you prompting him like chat GPT?

01:15:06.07
Aaron
Yeah, what do you what do you what do you want your sons to take with them in terms of who their dad was and and what he meant to Mother Earth?

01:15:16.79
burkard
Right. That's a great question. um Actually, like part of reason part of the reason why we moved to Iceland was to show them what we cared about and to show them that access to clean water and nature and these landscapes is not only important to me, but like it's the most important thing. I sold my my studio in California. I had an awesome production studio that was beautiful, bought it, you know, big office with the gallery. And I sold all that because I was like, you know what, I'm going to buy land in iceland you know in a remote fjord and i wanted to show them that to me that's what's important and and we bought like like a kilometer of beach basically um and it's beautiful and and i just wanted to show them like hey like this is what i want you to inherit you know this is what i want to take care of because i love these landscapes they've given me something so now they're going to give you something and i'm not going to wrap up your

01:16:14.88
burkard
you know, inheritance in my business or my whatever, like this is what you got. So um that's how I show it to them as ah as a as far as the rest of the world.

01:16:21.93
Aaron
you

01:16:24.14
burkard
I mean, you know, that's part of why I think leaving behind things like films or books or or things like that are special because you get a chance to leave behind what you care about most.

01:16:36.19
burkard
And, you know, i don't and don't find being particularly, like, find myself being a particularly like

01:16:45.38
burkard
always somebody who wants to be an open book on social media, but I definitely really try to give and deliver to people when I'm doing a presentation or I'm sharing my work or I'm doing an in-person event or something like that. Like I really go as far as I can to make people sure people feel and know that it means a lot to me that they're there and that it means a lot of people support my work. And, um, I think that people, they remember that and it, it means something.

01:17:12.37
burkard
And so I've had a lot of support over the years through, um, through those things and just from touring the projects that I'm doing. And, um, it was, yeah, it's an important part of my life for sure.

01:17:23.45
Aaron
Awesome.

01:17:23.59
Seth Macey
Chris Burkhardt, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us, kind sir. It's been a great conversation.

01:17:26.85
burkard
That was sick. Thank you guys. Yeah.

01:17:28.79
Aaron
Chris, do you have anything you want to mention to the audience, stuff coming out or stuff to look out for? Or I can say check out that documentary. It's on Apple TV.

01:17:37.83
burkard
yeah

01:17:38.53
Aaron
ah

01:17:38.82
burkard
Yeah, check it out. It's on Apple TV and more stuff to come. i'll be I'll be heading out on a pretty rad expedition April 1st. So that might be the next.

01:17:46.85
Aaron
Cool.

01:17:48.62
burkard
Who knows?

01:17:49.62
Seth Macey
Are you still picking sand out of your gear from that film?

01:17:49.80
Aaron
Awesome.

01:17:52.02
burkard
I am, man. Yeah, I honestly, I just like a week ago got my bike clean for the first time after that trip. And um not the first time, but like deep clean. And they were like, dude, this thing was destroyed.

01:18:03.66
Aaron
Yeah, can I can only imagine.

01:18:05.81
burkard
Yeah.

01:18:06.14
Seth Macey
Awesome. Till next time, guys.

01:18:06.45
Aaron
care. take care