Eric Bennett - Photography is Not a Popularity Contest Artwork

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The Photographer Mindset

Eric Bennett - Photography is Not a Popularity Contest

May 26, 2025 • Seth Macey & Aaron Mannes • Episode 274

Eric Bennett (@bennettfilm) is a nature photographer, artist, and storyteller who brings an intentional and deeply personal approach to his craft.

How does a photographer transform the ordinary into the extraordinary? What is the role of creativity in connecting more deeply with the world around us? Eric shares his philosophy on capturing meaningful images, the importance of slowing down and observing, and his thoughts on staying true to one’s artistic vision amidst external pressures. We also explore the balance between art and personal fulfillment, and why Eric never lets trends dictate his work.

Expect to Learn:

How to train your eye to notice the extraordinary in the ordinary
How releasing expectations can lead to more fulfilling experiences
About myths like the “golden hour"
How to avoid overcomplicating your art
How to stay true to your creative vision

Eric's links:

Tutorial Videos: https://www.bennettfilm.com/Tutorials
Workshops: https://www.bennettfilm.com/WORKSHOPS
Brews n' Views Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@BrewsNViews

Sponsor:

Thanks to Tamron for being our lead sponsor this episode! Explore the 18-300mm all-in-one zoom lens for Sony APS-C Mirrorless cameras and soon for Nikon Z and Canon RF mounted cameras. Right now, enjoy $100 off on this lens! You can visit www.tamron-americas.com or your local Tamron authorized dealer.

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Thanks for listening!
Go get shooting, go get editing, and stay focused.

@sethmacey
@mantis_photography
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INTRO

00:00.96
Seth Macey
Hey, you're listening to another episode of the Photographer Mindset Podcast. I'm your co-host Seth Macey.

00:05.10
Aaron
I'm your co-host. Sorry. I threw up in my mouth.

00:08.75
Seth Macey
No, we're keeping it. Was it because you're so appalled with our guest? Eric's going to be really disappointed about this, man.

00:13.91
Aaron
We were just talking about beer and i think I'm having a, um, parasympathetic response to it.

00:19.73
Seth Macey
Yeah, we had an intermission about, what, 10, 15 minutes in that lasted, what, five five minutes with Eric Bennett today, who is an exceptional photographer with a keen eye and some of the most unique landscape photography I have ever seen.

00:26.39
Aaron
Yeah.

00:34.64
Seth Macey
We talk a lot about that today. But in the intermission, he made it very clear that he is, as he even put himself, a beer snob. He knows a lot about breweries, a lot of different kinds of beers, craft beers, you know, all the good stuff.

00:47.01
Seth Macey
And if you're interested,

00:48.13
Aaron
coffee too. We didn't even get into the coffee much.

00:49.59
Seth Macey
you looks snob too Yeah. But if you're interested, how he mentioned he has his own podcast.

00:51.78
Aaron
Yeah.

00:53.91
Seth Macey
We plug it in this episode, uh, bruising views, um, which I thought was kind of funny. So stick around for that. This episode was really good. We talked a lot about being deliberate, uh, before taking photographs, talking about how to slow down.

01:06.24
Seth Macey
We talked a lot about how people wait for good lighting, whereas Eric just uses the light he has and then makes good photos. I thought that was a very unique way uh, putting things we got back into talking about the age-old debate of uh does the audience come first or last i'm taking no sides i just like to play devil's advocate as my personality so don't shoot me it's just who i am probably annoys the hell out of some people but that's me that's you know that's me authentically what else you talking about what should else do people listen out for today

01:35.92
Aaron
yeah

01:38.57
Aaron
yeah

01:41.60
Aaron
I just think it's so crucial and important how true he stays to himself as an artist. Uh, what he gets from photography hasn't changed from day one to now. And I think that kind of comes through, ah pretty strongly in this episode that he did not waver from that. It's, it's about what he gets out of it, his time in nature, the photos kind of come second to everything else that gets him. And,

02:08.25
Aaron
the response to it is secondary to what he gets from it and his enjoyment of connecting with these moments.

02:15.76
Seth Macey
Yeah, I guess it's essentially a consequence, his photographs, and they they come across really beautiful. So without further ado, a quick word from our sponsor and then into today's episode with Eric Bennett.

INTERVIEW

00:00:13.79
Seth Macey
Eric, how are you today? how you doing? Thanks for joining us, man. Appreciate it.

00:00:17.94
Eric
Doing pretty good. Thank you.

00:00:19.53
Seth Macey
We mentioned when we first got on here that we were disappointed that you didn't have the long luscious locks. And then you informed us that that's the start of every conversation. And then we were deeply humbled knowing that we are not original in any sense of conversational practice.

00:00:34.36
Eric
That wasn't my intention, but, uh, it is my intention to fly under the radar by having a three-year-old biopic on the internet.

00:00:45.15
Eric
So I don't really like getting spotted out in the field. Not that it happens very often, but i

00:00:49.63
Seth Macey
You're that famous or you're hiding from the FBI. One of the two. If the FBI is like this man, he is here currently in virtual space.

00:00:57.17
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:00:58.29
Seth Macey
That's not much help. I realize.

00:01:01.50
Eric
I played the fifth on that one.

00:01:03.43
Seth Macey
Well, smart man, smart man. Let ask you this right, right off the bat.

00:01:06.46
Eric
had my moments.

00:01:08.78
Seth Macey
Okay. I've spent a lot of time on your website today. And you had these really, you know, your courses seem very interesting. I highly recommend people check those out. Links to that in the episode description. But enough flattery. I viewed the trailer videos that you created and I generated a lot of questions for today based off of those because they really piqued my interest.

00:01:27.70
Seth Macey
I just want to start off with one simple question. Do you think that a photo is good if it's simply interesting?

00:01:36.57
Eric
Uh, not necessarily because i think a certain subject could be inherently interesting, maybe just because you've never seen it before. Um, but I think what makes it a good photo is that it is interesting, but also presented in a, in an effective way to make you, you know, notice the right things and maybe even feel a certain way.

00:01:59.06
Seth Macey
right.

00:02:01.78
Eric
um So like my personal philosophy is like I don't really go out looking for inherently interesting things. I actually try to show things which a lot of times can just be ordinary or mundane things in an interesting way through your composition and lighting and things like that. So I feel most proud when I make an image of something that people probably see every single day in their life, but I present it in a way that it feels completely new and teaches them something new about it.

00:02:31.77
Seth Macey
Yeah, I've fallen into that trap before where I have the thought of, i got to go find I got to go out and find something epic or interesting or really cool, as opposed to making it interesting or cool.

00:02:41.50
Eric
Mm-hmm. Or a photo could have like interesting processing, which isn't necessarily a good thing. You know, like, oh, that's a weird choice or, you know, like that's, uh-huh.

00:02:51.49
Seth Macey
You mean in post?

00:02:55.21
Seth Macey
Yeah, you you also mentioned something in that video. I was writing i was furiously writing notes. Brilliant, man, you are. You mentioned a mistake you see a lot of photographers make is seeing something for how it ought to be rather than for what it is.

00:03:07.32
Seth Macey
I'm curious in the photography world if you can elaborate on that and if you've personally fallen into this this trap outside of the technical space, for example, with people or with an opportunity, seeing it for how it ought to be rather than for what it really is.

00:03:23.93
Eric
Yeah, so I think with that, what I was referring to is like when you're out doing photography or hoping to take some pictures, I think a lot of photographers hope for things to pan out a certain way.

00:03:37.04
Eric
They hope for the sky to look a certain way.

00:03:38.29
Seth Macey
Right.

00:03:39.98
Eric
They hope for the weather to be a certain way. They hope to find certain things in certain moments that they've already kind of contrived in their minds. And they're trying to find things that match those like mental templates that they've created.

00:03:53.31
Eric
And a that's just very unreasonable to even expect that. um Nature's out of our control, which is a good thing. And I also think that like B, you're just going to not be able to immerse yourself as much in your surroundings because you're not going to be observing them how they are.

00:04:15.04
Eric
You're just going to be like seeing them through this mental lens of your expectations and how you wish they looked instead.

00:04:17.02
Seth Macey
Thank you.

00:04:20.77
Eric
And so I just feel like it creates a very strong disconnect between you and your surroundings instead of having zero expectations, observing everything around you and being like really attuned with what's going on and leaning into that instead of kind of being opposed to it.

00:04:40.62
Seth Macey
Yeah, it's just an interesting concept, both within photography and outside. Having low expectations, I think, i you know, at the heart, we all want to be extremely idealistic. has I'm not even going to say setting a bar low, having no bar, having no set expectations. Has that been a learned skill for you or just something you've always felt has been a part of your personality?

00:05:02.20
Eric
I think I started to let go of expectations when I was traveling because unpredictable things would always happen. And at first I'd get frustrated or upset.

00:05:13.50
Eric
And then I just realized like, this is just part of traveling around the world. Like you, and that can actually like make it exciting and awesome. And sometimes things don't happen the way you wanted them to happen, but they are even better or, um,

00:05:22.36
Seth Macey
All right.

00:05:28.66
Eric
you know, they're more significant or memorable than anything you could have come up on your own with your limited imagination. So because of traveling, that's how i got into photography.

00:05:40.13
Eric
And so that was something that I started practicing in my photography, but it's definitely spilled over into my everyday life. Just like not really having expectations for people. um I definitely have expectations for myself, but I'm pretty flexible.

00:05:55.04
Eric
You know, i try to be very fluid with things and, um, you know, projects and things that I work on, but what's that?

00:05:59.68
Seth Macey
Yeah. Where do you set the bar for yourself?

00:06:03.47
Seth Macey
Where do you set the bar for yourself? That's an interesting thought. You know, you say you have low expectations for others and things that you can't control, but mean maybe I'm jumping the gun here and answering for you, but is it perhaps because you can control yourself is and your actions or is it for entirely different reasons?

00:06:17.68
Eric
Well, my expectations are like a certain level of quality, ah meaning, you know, like my main metric of quality is how do I feel about it? Am I completely satisfied or not?

00:06:29.49
Eric
And so I never post images that I think other people will like or anything like that. i always just pay attention to how I feel about them because that's the only thing I can really know. um But when it comes to like not having expectations for myself, like when I release a book, I'm not like, oh, I hope to make this amount of money with it.

00:06:47.51
Eric
Um, anything that's kind of external and out of my hands, I try not to have any expectations for like anything that depends on other people acting a certain way or performing something. i try to just take that as it comes and, you know, just find out what happens.

00:07:04.01
Seth Macey
Yeah, that makes sense. Aaron, anything? Chad?

00:07:06.55
Aaron
Yeah. i was, I'm curious, do you feel like the more you go out to ah do photography and and be out in nature, the easier that that task is versus the person that travels once a year and they're kind of banking their whole portfolio for that year on this good weather, at Yosemite, for example, and they have a week and they're just really putting a lot of eggs in one basket.

00:07:32.50
Aaron
um ah think that's I'm curious your thoughts on that. the The difference between being out there a ton and and letting it come to you and and enjoying the cloudy days for the cloudy days, knowing you're going to be a around again.

00:07:47.78
Eric
Yeah, so like what you're describing is like you know one person that has and i a very limited amount of opportunity and somebody else that has you know much more opportunities because i can spend more time out in nature. But what really makes the difference isn't like time constraints.

00:08:04.90
Eric
It's the expectations that someone has. So someone that only goes out one weekend out of the year could have the same expectations as somebody that goes out 100 times a year.

00:08:17.21
Eric
What's going to make the difference is not having any expectations. Like really, no matter what, I never hope to make a photograph. Like all I hope to do is go out into nature camp and slow down and like, you know, fall back into synchrony with the pace of nature, which is so much more,

00:08:35.56
Aaron
Thank you.

00:08:41.97
Eric
Fulfilling and satisfying for my being than the pace of modern life So that's what I'm always like actively seeking and that's what I always get as long as I don't dilute my experience or I'm not distracted by too many things um You know, there's a certain way you have to like prepare yourself and be open and receptive to those kinds of things but

00:08:56.05
Seth Macey
I to think

00:09:05.36
Eric
Yeah. Um, as long as you're expecting like certain outcomes in terms of photography, it doesn't matter how often you go out, you can still be severely disappointed and yeah, I don't think it really makes much of a difference how much you go.

00:09:14.66
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:09:18.76
Eric
So everyone's capable of changing the expectations.

00:09:19.91
Seth Macey
i like to

00:09:22.41
Seth Macey
Yeah. I like to think that everything comes up zero. So if you have no expectations, sometimes amazing and lucky things happen. And then other times things just don't go your way at all. And it somehow always comes up zero.

00:09:36.40
Eric
Yeah, I think there's as I mean, i'm just talking about like going out into nature. i think there's always some kind of benefit to be gained.

00:09:42.91
Seth Macey
yeah

00:09:44.45
Eric
So I'm not talking about photography in general because yeah, if I go out into a certain environment to try and make photos, maybe that is the only thing I could gain from that kind of environment.

00:09:56.77
Eric
But nature is this extremely complex, like amazing and mysterious environment that we evolved in for millions of years. And so it has very different effects than anywhere else that's manmade or that we can find.

00:10:13.18
Seth Macey
Yeah, no doubt.

00:10:13.59
Aaron
when you're in When you're in nature, as you're I'm curious about your mindset. Is your mindset for... silence and personal growth or reflection and, and, and thought, is it about learning from nature? Is it about, ah quiet and just peace and what, or maybe some of all of it or things I've forgotten here, but, uh, I'm curious, like your, maybe not expectations, but like your goal going into nature, what do you get most from it?

00:10:45.11
Eric
Yeah, definitely all of those things that you said, but some trips will encompass all of those things.

00:10:50.04
Seth Macey
Thank you.

00:10:51.46
Eric
Other trips, maybe it'll just be one or two things. It depends on what's going on in my life, how open I am at the moment, what I'm trying to process mentally.

00:10:56.49
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:11:01.68
Eric
Because at the end of the day, nature is like, it's like a refuge for me. It's somewhere that I go to, to like,

00:11:12.65
Eric
just kind of whatever I need, it has been able to help me in some way. And um like tragedy or just making a big decision or really anything at all. And then even in moments where I'm not really contemplating anything big in life or anticipating any kind of changes or anything like that, it'll still just have very therapeutic effects for me.

00:11:36.91
Eric
And if I don't go into nature, like that's how I've realized why I need it. If I don't go for a prolonged amount of time, I definitely go crazy and have trouble finding equilibrium. And I just don't feel like myself.

00:11:47.99
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:11:47.98
Seth Macey
Ooh, what happens in those moments?

00:11:49.25
Eric
So

00:11:52.73
Eric
um I'll just be very distracted, scatterbrained. It's difficult to find focus. i Definitely feel depressed. um All of these, side effects that are scientifically proven to happen when we're not in our natural environment.

00:12:08.01
Eric
Uh, the nature fix is a really great book that talks about all those things, you know, elevated heart rate, elevated blood pressure, stress, high cortisol levels. All these things happen when we're not in nature and open space, breathing fresh air and slowing down for once.

00:12:24.00
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:12:24.12
Aaron
That explains New York city to me.

00:12:24.52
Seth Macey
York.

00:12:27.02
Aaron
So, uh, 12 million people that haven't touched ground in weeks, just concrete barriers and metal.

00:12:27.06
Eric
Yeah.

00:12:36.38
Aaron
And there's the stress and the rush and the angst that you feel in the city after a couple of days.

00:12:44.25
Eric
And it's insane that some people go their entire lives without experiencing anything different. I just don't understand. but

00:12:51.01
Seth Macey
sorry new york

00:12:52.93
Aaron
No, it's each their own. And so I have good friends that are city people and love it and love that. Maybe that buzz and energy. And i think it can be too much or too overstimulating for some.

00:13:04.72
Aaron
Probably the same as noise or music.

00:13:05.05
Eric
Yes.

00:13:06.40
Aaron
So like heavy metal. Cool. You like that? That's great. i don't get it. You know, it's I tried to maybe try. i try to get it. i don't get it. You know, so I think it's just each your own.

00:13:17.67
Seth Macey
It's like coffee or Guinness, you know? Guinness beer, the first five are terrible, but you just keep drinking them until you like them

00:13:26.90
Eric
That hasn't been my experience.

00:13:27.14
Aaron
Yeah. Same.

00:13:29.69
Eric
But I am my friends do refer to me as a beer snob.

00:13:29.89
Seth Macey
them. I did that with black coffee. Oh, are you a beer snob? I did that with black coffee too. I just, I didn't want to put sugar and milk in it anymore. And I just kept drinking black coffee until it was the way. And now it's the only way.

00:13:42.55
Seth Macey
So you want to get into.

00:13:42.73
Aaron
yeah

00:13:44.28
Eric
hey it's all about the beans though like you gotta to get some high quality coffee for it to taste good black and yeah sometimes that's like even better because you can taste the full flavor profile but I usually do a latte absolutely yeah

00:13:50.30
Seth Macey
oh

00:13:55.89
Seth Macey
You're calling me snob too.

00:13:59.28
Seth Macey
Nice.

00:13:59.50
Aaron
yeah

00:13:59.55
Seth Macey
Yeah, you got to grind the beans. You got to taste the process. Then you got to do a French press or a pour over or something.

00:14:06.65
Eric
AeroPress

00:14:08.00
Seth Macey
Okay.

00:14:08.22
Aaron
Arrow presses away.

00:14:08.47
Eric
You got to get on the AeroPress game.

00:14:10.01
Seth Macey
Never tried a narrow press.

00:14:11.33
Eric
French press. French press is horrible.

00:14:13.91
Seth Macey
Oh, God, I just got, I got humbled.

00:14:15.67
Aaron
Yeah, here we go.

00:14:16.75
Seth Macey
I got humbled.

00:14:17.28
Eric
You like having like gritty coffee grounds in the bottom of your cup like when you get towards the end of it

00:14:17.51
Seth Macey
Okay.

00:14:23.37
Aaron
Nope. No one does.

00:14:24.27
Seth Macey
I think that's how I know that it was usually my strongest coffees are like that. So I don't know. Maybe enlighten me. Maybe this is the period of enlightenment for me.

00:14:32.84
Eric
Well, like with the AeroPress, it's super easy. it's just like two and a half minutes to brew it. And it uses an espresso filter and you get zero grittiness at all. All you get is just pure liquid, like crystal clear. It's super clean.

00:14:46.08
Seth Macey
Okay. I'm interested. I'm interested.

00:14:47.46
Eric
Yeah, it's kind of like a cheaper way to make espresso.

00:14:48.56
Seth Macey
ah we,

00:14:50.64
Eric
And it's also great if you're camping because it's super easy to carry around or if you're traveling or whatever. Like it's not complicated at all.

00:14:57.09
Seth Macey
Oh, makes sense. Makes sense. We go over to your podcast.

00:14:58.43
Aaron
ah

00:14:59.49
Seth Macey
It's full of AeroPress sponsorships.

00:15:01.70
Aaron
Yeah. That's why um on Amazon right now.

00:15:02.84
Eric
ah No, because it's a different kind of brew.

00:15:06.06
Seth Macey
ah

00:15:06.42
Aaron
ah Have you're, you're out in Utah. Is that where you are?

00:15:09.68
Eric
Yeah.

00:15:10.58
Aaron
Yeah. Good. What's, what's your beer of choice? I'm like, uh,

00:15:13.85
Eric
So Utah is like the desert for craft beer. um

00:15:16.85
Aaron
no Not good. Or just really dry.

00:15:18.92
Eric
No. There are a couple... breweries here that are good like tf brewing in salt lake or helper beer down in helper utah those are the two spots i hit the most but i typically have beer sent to me from like new york or portland or louisiana new jersey yeah

00:15:37.88
Aaron
Yeah, cool.

00:15:41.15
Aaron
Yeah. out ah Out east is pretty strong. I do have to say.

00:15:45.55
Eric
yeah the new england area is amazing for ipas and stouts and

00:15:47.00
Aaron
Yeah. um I'm in Connecticut and like Vermont and New Hampshire and all those places.

00:15:53.23
Eric
Yeah.

00:15:54.77
Aaron
Anyways.

00:15:54.99
Eric
Connecticut. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that's out there, but.

00:15:59.26
Seth Macey
Ouch, that's where Aaron is.

00:15:59.38
Aaron
There's a lot of good smaller ones. No, there's a lot of good smaller ones. I think they came second place, but you have tree house right across the border. You must have heard of tree house.

00:16:07.74
Eric
is super overhyped though. they I haven't had a single Treehouse IPA that I was stoked on, honestly.

00:16:09.54
Aaron
Yeah. Now.

00:16:13.24
Eric
Pretty underwhelming.

00:16:13.84
Aaron
Really?

00:16:15.01
Eric
Yeah, absolutely. if If you think Treehouse is good, I could blow your mind super easily.

00:16:16.66
Aaron
Wow.

00:16:20.58
Aaron
No, there's a lot of good stuff, but I think the key to tree house is how fresh it was. It's like that day brewing versus getting some, like a sip of sunshine back in the day when it was thing.

00:16:26.57
Eric
Well,

00:16:31.43
Aaron
And it's a month old. I think that made a big difference.

00:16:33.37
Eric
that is absolutely relevant. That's why you always get to buy straight from the brewery.

00:16:37.39
Aaron
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:16:37.58
Eric
But you actually don't want to drink like IPAs at least, super fresh. You got to let them sit for like a week or else they're what they call green.

00:16:42.53
Aaron
yeah

00:16:44.51
Eric
And yeah, the flavor will be a little off.

00:16:47.61
Aaron
Hurt your tummy.

00:16:48.26
Eric
Got to let him sit a little bit.

00:16:48.65
Aaron
Tummy twisters. Yeah.

00:16:51.50
Seth Macey
That was a fun intermission, guys. Great.

00:16:53.16
Aaron
What about, what about heady topper?

00:16:54.37
Seth Macey
continues.

00:16:54.64
Aaron
Is that, is that, is that crap too?

00:16:54.84
Seth Macey
It continues.

00:16:56.42
Eric
alchemist brewing uh i've had ah i've had heady topper and focal banger a couple times and they're pretty good obviously it's going to vary from batch to batch like everything um so i'm still open to be surprised more but that's like more of a classic like they were awesome because they were kind of the first hazy ipas like new england ipa style uh breweries but um it's definitely advanced from that at this point like

00:16:57.48
Aaron
Yeah.

00:17:05.76
Aaron
Yeah.

00:17:14.01
Aaron
Yeah.

00:17:20.71
Aaron
All right, you're getting stuff shipped from out here to you. What are you shipping? You're getting a six-pack, a mixed six-pack. going to write this down.

00:17:28.73
Eric
No, it's more like 16 cans. And ah typically from Fidens Brewing in upstate New York, they're my favorite ever.

00:17:35.54
Aaron
Ah.

00:17:36.77
Eric
Yeah, they're insane.

00:17:38.65
Aaron
Fighting.

00:17:38.67
Eric
And they actually ship within New York now, but not out of state. So and i have a

00:17:42.92
Seth Macey
Aaron is writing.

00:17:45.66
Aaron
Yeah, I am.

00:17:45.79
Eric
if you have a friend in New York that could get you some, I highly recommend it. Albany.

00:17:50.79
Aaron
ah where upstate, you know, what town?

00:17:53.11
Eric
Albany.

00:17:53.99
Aaron
Oh, that's close to me.

00:17:56.48
Eric
Oh, there you go. You definitely enough to make a trip and you'll probably see my buddy, Jimmy there that goes every day.

00:17:57.68
Aaron
Yeah.

00:18:02.78
Seth Macey
going on, Jimmy?

00:18:04.17
Aaron
Hey, Jimmy, I've heard about you.

00:18:05.62
Seth Macey
ah

00:18:07.94
Seth Macey
did you get your Did you write it down, Aaron? You got it?

00:18:09.83
Aaron
Yeah, I'm good. We can get back to photography or mindset and

00:18:12.13
Seth Macey
Oh, that was I enjoyed that. um I hope people who are beer connoisseurs enjoyed that as well.

00:18:17.22
Aaron
the photographer minds slash coffee.

00:18:17.51
Eric
Well, I'll drop a few, ah few other names.

00:18:19.10
Aaron
Yeah. Yes, please.

00:18:20.74
Eric
More talents is super good.

00:18:21.38
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:18:21.92
Eric
If you like sours and stouts there in upstate New York, they have a few different locations. Uh, burial is really good in, uh, North Carolina.

00:18:32.86
Eric
They have a lot of different locations in North Carolina. Um, equilibrium is really good in New Jersey. If you like stats, they have some pretty insane stats.

00:18:43.35
Eric
Some of the best I've ever had.

00:18:47.44
Eric
Certain breweries are like better at different styles.

00:18:47.61
Seth Macey
um

00:18:49.36
Eric
So you can't really like go in expecting everything to be amazing. You got to know what they specialize in.

00:18:52.70
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah, of course.

00:18:55.72
Eric
Fight ends is IPAs.

00:18:55.74
Seth Macey
how

00:18:58.07
Seth Macey
Have you photographed any beers or breweries?

00:18:58.47
Aaron
Gotcha.

00:19:00.95
Eric
So that's funny because, ah yeah, I'm friends with the guys here at TF Brewing and I displayed a bunch of my work when my first book came out in their tap room, which was really cool.

00:19:12.20
Eric
And like as part of that, since I was hanging out there a lot, I photographed like two beer releases that they did for some special beers and.

00:19:20.80
Eric
That's pretty cool.

00:19:21.85
Seth Macey
Yeah, well, I asked one of your pro tips on your Instagram was to, I'm paraphrasing roughly, maybe you can do a better job, was to, I guess, like spend more time with things you love and that'll make you a better photographer ah better at photographing those things.

00:19:21.92
Eric
I don't think it turned out anything, but.

00:19:34.27
Seth Macey
So, um' you know, your whole page lit and your website is littered with beautiful landscapes. So I was curious to know if you had ventured out into, you know, listening to you listening to the passion come through with the brews.

00:19:46.05
Aaron
Yeah.

00:19:47.36
Seth Macey
I was like, you have to be photographing breweries or doing something.

00:19:52.04
Eric
Uh, yeah, I mean, that's why I was open to the idea when we talked about it because yeah, I do really like beer. So I got creative and stuff with like ingredients and things to show in the photo, but, um, there's definitely a learning curve there. Like if I kept doing it, i would get better. don't, I wasn't like blown away by the results, but, um, yes, I think the more interested you are in something, the greater your capacity will be to understand it and,

00:20:20.88
Eric
photograph it in different ways and present it in different ways. Like, I think it's just important to like be super familiar with your subject, just like a doctor needs to be as familiar as possible with the disease that he's studying or the kind of procedures that he's doing or a lawyer, you know, in the field of law that they're practicing.

00:20:23.79
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

00:20:37.40
Eric
Like it just makes sense. So when you're a photographer, like you should choose your subject, your genre, very, um and intentionally and not just kind of be all over the place, like photographing things that aren't very meaningful to you because it's not very reasonable to expect other people to care about something that you don't care about yourself.

00:20:57.13
Seth Macey
Very fair point. ah do you think Do you think it's possible to get too creative or overly creative with something, let's say like a beer can? but you're You're out in nature, you're studying light, you're looking at patterns, you're looking for textures, which is a very creative process where something as potentially as simple as ah we want a nice, good beer can photo, someone who's naturally looking for all these creative elements could maybe overdo it. Have you ever struggled with that?

00:21:27.76
Eric
Well, yeah, that's like something that every photographer has to learn. I think when you start out, you're very focused on addition, you know, you're like, okay, here's a cool subject. Here's a cool foreground. Here's a cool background. Here's a cool sunstar. Here's this thing.

00:21:44.77
Eric
You're trying to cram in as many things as you can into the scene, thinking that each thing you add will also add to the quality or interest. or a message, but really like when it comes down to any kind of art form, I think it's best to be concise and never have anything superfluous. And depending on the scene, it's going to call for more or less in order for the right thing to be accentuated and draw the attention. Otherwise it can just get buried in all this noise of all these different things going on. You also need it to be cohesive as well. And the more things you include, the less likely it's going to turn out cohesive. Like the less likely all those things are going to play well together and

00:22:23.51
Eric
all like jointly elevate the subject, like the main thing that the photograph's about.

00:22:29.09
Seth Macey
Right. How did you put it? Photographing everything is photographing nothing.

00:22:33.70
Eric
Mm-hmm.

00:22:35.36
Seth Macey
You know, i I like to think of it too, as kind of like an interior designer of a house or of a room. If your, your couch is super quirky and eccentric and the wallpaper is all over the place and the, your stone fireplace chase is, you know, incredibly beautiful. You wouldn't know where to look and then nothing ends up being spectacular.

00:22:58.84
Eric
Yeah, there's no focus or subject or like central theme.

00:23:02.97
Seth Macey
Right. So I think this if you treat it as your photograph, this is what I've been thinking of recently, as as designing a room or a space, sitting down and thinking, what do I want to stand out in this room?

00:23:16.60
Seth Macey
What do I want people to look at? And then I'll build around that. Is that similar maybe, a similar analogy to how you're treating composition?

00:23:24.56
Eric
I see it more as like making a movie or writing a book.

00:23:28.06
Seth Macey
Okay.

00:23:28.90
Eric
You have your main character and then you have supporting characters. You have a villain. It's always about one single person. um You know, like Batman, for example, you have Batman and then you have the Joker and the Joker helps you to learn more about Batman because they're antithetical, you know, they're He's going to reveal his weaknesses and his strengths and things like that.

00:23:52.09
Eric
But it's not about both of them equally, right? It's weighted towards Batman. And that's why the trilogy is focused on Batman and Joker's only in one of the movies. um So like if you have a movie with like 20 superheroes and it's like not really about anyone in particular, it just becomes very diluted and it's just like not...

00:24:13.33
Eric
The story is just not going to be as strong and you end up with the Avengers movies, which fucking sucks.

00:24:18.16
Seth Macey
I was going say, this is not an Avengers fan.

00:24:19.00
Aaron
Yeah, every Marvel movie. Yeah.

00:24:22.42
Eric
Yeah. Yeah.

00:24:23.92
Aaron
Yeah.

00:24:24.04
Eric
So that's kind of the mistake that they're making. Whereas like, you know, Christopher Nolan, just like really focusing on Batman and not including too many other side characters. It's lot more powerful.

00:24:35.77
Seth Macey
So how are you determining if you're...

00:24:36.28
Aaron
To me, i you guys are, you have two different analogies and I, I have a third where I feel like it's a, it's a stripped down song.

00:24:38.12
Seth Macey
Go ahead, Eric.

00:24:44.79
Aaron
Like what is with an acoustic guitar and my message and my melody, what is, can, can this still stand on its own?

00:24:50.55
Seth Macey
Thank

00:24:52.78
Aaron
And if there's stuff to add, if there's composition to add or production to add cool, but on its own, it really should be able to stand. And that's kind of how i when i think of imagery or editing it's very similar to me as like the process of writing songs not that i do that often but in terms of what i've viewed or have seen that is a uh an analogy always think of like you can ruin a really good song by adding too much freaking didger do's in the background or whatever

00:25:24.06
Eric
Yeah, that's that's actually fantastic because, yeah, if you have too many instruments and they're just overpowering each other, there's like no melody. And it's like, yeah, it's really difficult to include more and more instruments and have it be cohesive.

00:25:31.60
Aaron
Yeah. Where's the focus?

00:25:36.35
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:25:36.91
Seth Macey
Well, this begs the question, how do you determine if your subject is strong enough on its own?

00:25:42.13
Eric
Well, it depends on its size. You know, if it's a very small subject, you probably can't include too much around it because you're going to have to zoom out too much and then it's going to become severely minimized. So when you're dealing with like larger subjects in general, you like mountains, you're going to zoom out and there's room to include like trees, lakes, waterfalls, and things because they're not going to dwarf the mountain at all, depending on your perspective.

00:26:08.75
Eric
But so yeah, like the smaller your subject is probably the fewer things you can include. Granted their scale is, you know, larger than that thing, but, um,

00:26:22.45
Eric
I think it also depends on the light, like how strong the light is. If it's like really isolating a subject, you can get away with including more things if they're in the shade and having a wider scene because that light is just like really spotlighting that thing.

00:26:35.91
Eric
If the light is very even, it's going to be more difficult because everything is illuminated the same amount. So the light isn't really making any one particular thing stand out. So that's where you got to think more about like pattern or like what the overall scene creates or.

00:26:49.31
Eric
Maybe it needs to stand out because it's a different color than everything else around It it just depends like how much contrast there is to work with.

00:26:56.72
Seth Macey
Right. Do you think golden hour is a myth?

00:26:57.45
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:27:00.54
Eric
It definitely doesn't last an hour. It's more like golden two minutes.

00:27:03.59
Seth Macey
hey I mean, you hear the, you hear people say, Oh, you got to shoot golden hour. You have a window rush, rush, rush. This is when you should be shooting. do you call BS?

00:27:13.91
Eric
I just don't think there's any quality of light that is all around the best quality of light in every scenario. So certain scenes are going to look much better in the middle of the day with like a silvery kind of lighting, depending on the color of the subject matter, depending on how much contrast you need.

00:27:20.01
Seth Macey
All right.

00:27:31.55
Eric
depending on like what you need to be accentuated. So like at the end of the day, the sun is much lower. It's not going to hit certain things. It's only going hit like the, the taller stuff in the area, ah things that are above the horizon.

00:27:44.87
Eric
So like other things will be in like deep shade, which might not be so complimentary. So it all just depends on what you're photographing and what kind of light is going to compliment it the best to bring out the right things.

00:27:50.99
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:27:56.91
Seth Macey
Yeah, I think you said there's no such thing as bad light.

00:28:00.10
Eric
Only good or bad uses of light.

00:28:02.66
Seth Macey
Right. So, I mean, i guess that comes back to to the concept of ah intention, right? not Not kind of being reactive to, all this

00:28:10.68
Eric
Mm-hmm.

00:28:14.63
Seth Macey
ah this is golden hour, this is all I can do versus, okay, I'm going to make this look instead with what I have.

00:28:25.45
Eric
Yeah, you should never limit yourself to a certain window of the day to make photographs. like Yeah.

00:28:32.04
Seth Macey
It's just not practical when you're traveling. Let's say you've you've spent thousands of dollars to go to a place for a week. I mean, I'm not not going to go hiking in the Alps at sunset and sunrise. Yeah, I'm going to go whenever I can right?

00:28:47.76
Eric
I just think if you're creative enough, there's always some kind of opportunity if you just have the eyes to see it. There's always something interesting happening ah any time of day.

00:29:00.46
Seth Macey
Do you think that's something people can work on discovering or realizing those interesting things or you just have it or you don't?

00:29:11.60
Eric
You can definitely train your eye to be more observant, especially now that we're seeing that people are losing their attention span because of social media and smartphones and everything. I think that means you can also strengthen it in the other direction.

00:29:25.01
Eric
So it's like a muscle, you know, you got to use it or else it atrophies. And so, um you know, when I'm out on a pro long trip, like three, four weeks, I definitely noticed myself being way more attuned and just noticing things a lot quicker and all around me than like, you know, if I'm just going out every weekend or, you know, once a month, I'll eventually get to that spot. But it's like you can just like ride it longer if you're able to stay out for a longer amount of time. So you can definitely train it and become better at it just by practicing observation. And I think the most important tool that

00:30:01.43
Eric
many photographers don't really fully capitalize on are our eyeballs, like looking at the world around you with your eyes before you even start looking through your camera. Because once you start looking to the viewfinder, it can be so limiting and it can cause you to ignore so many other things around you because you're just like breaking down the world into such a small frame. I think it's better to try and absorb what's around you first. And then when you find something interesting, use your camera as a tool to study it at a deeper level.

00:30:28.58
Eric
And, you know, kind of like a microscope or something like

00:30:32.07
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:30:32.78
Eric
but ah yeah

00:30:33.98
Seth Macey
I think it's compulsive. You get to a place you're so excited, you reach for your camera and then you know that ship has sailed, right? You're just, you're shooting away. How do you, what advice would you give to people to help them slow down?

00:30:45.73
Seth Macey
Is it as simple as having a conscious thought, placing that in your mind before you get up to the top of that Vista or or whatever and saying, hey, I'm going to, I'm going to look around and just repeating it over and over again.

00:30:56.02
Seth Macey
I'm hoping to speak to really struggle with this.

00:30:57.82
Eric
I think

00:31:01.16
Eric
I think initially, for sure, you kind of have to force yourself to act a certain way. But later on, it just becomes learned behavior. It's just going become natural the more you put it into practice, just like anything. So just always ask yourself, you know, like, what is all around me? Like, have I looked in every direction?

00:31:19.00
Eric
Am I only looking at the ground or up? Am I missing out on something? Um, and just like always determine what it is you find interesting specifically about any given scene before you start trying to create a composition, because you really don't know what you're creating the composition around.

00:31:24.43
Aaron
you

00:31:35.67
Eric
If you haven't determined like what it is that draws you into it in the first place.

00:31:41.92
Seth Macey
Yeah. And I think that's enough that is enough too. Do I find this interesting? Yes. After you've looked around and then start shooting. I think the thought that maybe creeps into people's heads, I don't know.

00:31:53.72
Seth Macey
you know this doesn't happen Maybe this happened to me early on in my career was, are other people going to find this as interesting as I am right now, as opposed to simply ah stopping after saying, is is this interesting to me?

00:32:04.28
Eric
Which.

00:32:08.64
Eric
Yes. Yeah, because it's irrelevant what other people think because you'll never know. So you may as well just ignore that entirely. It's impossible to know what other people think.

00:32:17.78
Aaron
Also for beginners out there, maybe a trap that I fell into was again with limited time or limited travel, or you go to Acadia National Park for the first time and you on your trip have three sunsets and there's six places you'd love to photograph at sunset.

00:32:32.64
Seth Macey
Thank you.

00:32:36.14
Aaron
going to two for each sunset to try to get to those six and walking away with like, I was so rushed there. Like I was not in it. And I left with a freaking blurry photo, you know, like I didn't, I wasn't even myself versus, uh,

00:32:52.70
Aaron
I, I ah feel like I remember this one night where I had one, like one spot and I got dinner and sat there and was in the spot for hours. Sunset came. I had my settings. I had like everything, the composition for this one photo that I wanted. And I just waited the light there. It must've been,

00:33:13.78
Aaron
a hundred different variations of the light as it's setting and getting that one photo and being really happy with the experience and just the slowness of all that and taking it all in versus this need to like feed Instagram at the time, to be honest.

00:33:29.98
Aaron
And like, I need to come away from this trip with a hundred photos or a failed like that kind of mindset, uh, I think is a, is a shift.

00:33:31.18
Eric
Mm-hmm.

00:33:39.38
Aaron
Um, that comes with time and comes with maybe experience and and maybe failing or making mistakes too many times where you're, you're definitely Russian, not in the moment. It's more about like the numbers that you're trying to get versus sitting there and being like, I hope to walk away with one photo that I truly like.

00:33:58.43
Eric
I think that's a very important point that you've just made because i actually practice photography in a very different way. I wouldn't say it's better or that I would recommend one over the other, but I typically, will never just find something and sit on it for hours and hours till the lighting is just right i tend to focus on the lighting in any given moment and then consider what things it's accentuating sometimes that's more fleeting than others like if it's a partly cloudy day and there's dappled light and you have like all these spotlights moving around in the landscape those moments aren't going to last like five or six seconds so it's like

00:34:19.79
Aaron
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:34:28.89
Seth Macey
Thank

00:34:34.27
Eric
the opportunity is there and then it's not. And so there's really no point in waiting around on that same thing. It's like find something else. So I was just kind of like, um,

00:34:47.55
Eric
I kind of just like let nature point things out to me.

00:34:50.54
Aaron
I like that too.

00:34:50.51
Eric
And, uh, yeah.

00:34:51.00
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:34:52.18
Eric
So like, that's how I approach it instead of like finding something and waiting for something to happen. It's like, what is happening right now around me?

00:34:59.47
Aaron
yeah like that too

00:35:00.61
Eric
So I'll typically, you know, make several or sometimes even a dozen images in just a few hours, depending on where I am.

00:35:09.55
Seth Macey
Yeah, Aaron, to your point, I think moving into the future for myself, when I'm traveling with Haley or on my own, whatever, I'm going to try and build it itineraries that focus on seeing more of fewer locations.

00:35:25.12
Seth Macey
rather than trying to get okay, slightly above average photos of all the places I possibly can.

00:35:25.35
Aaron
Yeah.

00:35:33.33
Seth Macey
I'd rather have some really sick shots of places that I really researched and spent a good chunk of time at.

00:35:41.91
Aaron
yeah

00:35:42.24
Eric
One, and more importantly, your experience is just going be way better. Like you're going to be able to immerse yourself more in the place, learn more about it and notice more things.

00:35:48.32
Seth Macey
Yeah. I've always just runmer i've always run around. And by the end, I'm like, oh, we did so fucking much. And that's a good feeling.

00:35:54.87
Eric
Yeah.

00:35:55.32
Seth Macey
But at the same time, i don't I'd like to come back from a trip and not be burnt.

00:36:01.42
Eric
Yeah.

00:36:02.03
Aaron
Yeah.

00:36:02.58
Eric
Yeah. Definitely prefer to feel restored.

00:36:05.36
Seth Macey
I don't know what that feels like because I've just always, I've been so excited and eager and happy and just attacking a place with intensity that I can struggle to.

00:36:19.45
Seth Macey
It's almost like it's never enough. Have you ever felt this way? There's more to photograph. I missed that peak. There's this, there's that, there's another location. Ah.

00:36:29.19
Aaron
Yeah, Seth, especially in a latin Alaska where it's sunrise at four and it doesn't set until 1130.

00:36:30.47
Eric
That's just what...

00:36:37.12
Aaron
It's like it's hard to pack it in and go to sleep.

00:36:38.90
Seth Macey
Let's go, go, go, go. Yeah.

00:36:41.17
Aaron
Yeah.

00:36:42.57
Eric
Yeah, that just inspires me to return, though. like i never i never feel like this is the last time I'll ever come to this place because like why would it be?

00:36:44.98
Aaron
Yeah.

00:36:45.72
Seth Macey
Yes.

00:36:49.52
Seth Macey
And I think it's a good attitude to have. Yeah.

00:36:53.42
Seth Macey
Yeah. That's a good attitude to have. I think in my mind, i always think, hey I think it almost stems from like, uh, this, it's this weird, um, place of gratitude where I'm, um I'm so grateful to be there. And the thought crosses my mind where says, Hey, this, you never know, like you get hit by a bus. This could be your last time here or ever. And like really take it in.

00:37:13.90
Seth Macey
And to me often really taking it in is capture as much as possible with my camera, as opposed to like slow down.

00:37:22.43
Eric
Hmm. Yeah. I feel like when I really want to take on my end, I don't even reach for my camera. I just absorb it.

00:37:27.98
Seth Macey
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I've gotten better at that, but definitely in the beginning, it was snaps snap, snap, snap, 3,000 photos. You know, now on the trips with Aaron, we have the joke contest of who took the least amount of photos by the end of the trip.

00:37:42.73
Aaron
Yeah.

00:37:44.15
Seth Macey
It's almost like, ah you know, you win.

00:37:48.52
Aaron
Yeah. It's not me.

00:37:51.39
Seth Macey
No, I think I did like...

00:37:52.42
Aaron
Close, close second, but you're usually pretty good at it.

00:37:52.67
Eric
Yeah.

00:37:55.38
Seth Macey
1,400 in five days in Alaska, was it? Maybe less.

00:37:59.82
Aaron
I don't remember, but we'll do

00:38:00.09
Seth Macey
yeah don't know if that's a lot or a little.

00:38:04.19
Aaron
I mean, we saw wildlife stuff because you're like, I mean, wildlife stuff ah to match that up.

00:38:09.58
Eric
Yeah. So does every single exposure count as a photo really?

00:38:14.63
Seth Macey
I mean, me but like people have been doing wildlife since there were cameras, so...

00:38:15.73
Aaron
Yeah.

00:38:19.21
Aaron
Yeah.

00:38:20.45
Seth Macey
People were doing wildlife photography with such deliberate intent and picking their moments. And now we're just tracking the eye from bajillion miles away.

00:38:35.44
Eric
But on the other hand, we are capable of capturing certain moments that were too fleeting to capture with a large format film camera that had to do like 10 second exposures or took forever to set up.

00:38:39.47
Aaron
Yeah.

00:38:41.11
Seth Macey
of course.

00:38:45.48
Seth Macey
Just a blur of a bear.

00:38:45.80
Aaron
Yeah.

00:38:47.85
Eric
Yeah,

00:38:48.59
Seth Macey
Yeah, I feel you.

00:38:49.13
Aaron
It was a bear, I swear.

00:38:50.99
Eric
yeah I would just, what it comes down to is I would never sacrifice my experience for the sake of a photo.

00:38:56.67
Seth Macey
Yeah, I think for me and what I was describing, the experience isn't necessarily bad. I'm having a great time. It's just by the end, I'm like zero in the tank.

00:39:07.48
Seth Macey
After Alaska last year, I got sick.

00:39:07.95
Eric
Yeah, draining.

00:39:08.91
Seth Macey
I got sick after the trip and it was middle of summer. I can't tell you the last time I ever got sick in the summer. Like I don't think ever in my life, but I do not.

00:39:18.44
Eric
You must not have kids.

00:39:21.73
Seth Macey
My time will come perhaps.

00:39:23.81
Eric
I get a cold like every two weeks.

00:39:25.64
Aaron
Yeah. I work in a school and have a kid. So, but now my immune system is, uh, it's tough.

00:39:29.97
Eric
Oh man, yeah, you're on the front lines.

00:39:33.70
Aaron
It's robust.

00:39:34.30
Eric
you pray You probably caught COVID before it was called COVID.

00:39:37.50
Aaron
Yeah. And destroyed it immediately.

00:39:41.04
Seth Macey
patient zero

00:39:41.19
Aaron
I was like, uh, patients. Yeah. I was like, uh, the last of us, that girl, like you're immune from the zombies.

00:39:45.52
Eric
Yeah.

00:39:47.56
Aaron
Yeah, I am. I've lived with them for many years. Yeah.

00:39:52.50
Seth Macey
Eric do you think photography is dead on socials okay so it's not true when people say that in your opinion

00:39:55.78
Eric
No.

00:40:00.58
Eric
I haven't heard anybody say that. I've heard people say that social media sucks, and I agree, but...

00:40:06.09
Seth Macey
You haven't heard Photography's Dead, It's All About Video, and Nobody Cares About Stills? I've heard that song dance like a thousand times.

00:40:12.63
Eric
Yeah, but I've never heard it from a person whose opinion I care about. so

00:40:17.35
Seth Macey
Okay. Nice. Well, that's funny because part B of my question is that if this is true, part A of the question is do you care, which clearly is a resounding no.

00:40:29.19
Seth Macey
And part C was.

00:40:29.65
Eric
Glad that came off clearly.

00:40:31.08
Seth Macey
Yeah, part C was, does that have does have any effect on your craft one way or another?

00:40:37.57
Eric
No, I would never cater to a platform or an audience or a trend because then photography would lose its purpose, which is to form a deeper connection with my surroundings and nature.

00:40:53.75
Seth Macey
Good stuff.

00:40:54.02
Aaron
Yeah.

00:40:54.07
Seth Macey
I mean, I have nothing more on this. I just wanted to hear people say that you likely couldn't give two shits about whether it was a dead medium or not.

00:41:02.05
Aaron
yeah He must be a Rick Rubin fan. Audience comes last. Social media.

00:41:06.91
Eric
Uh, I actually haven't read his book yet.

00:41:07.25
Aaron
last

00:41:10.17
Eric
It's on my list along with a million other books. Um, but I have listened to several podcasts and I definitely enjoy his thoughts.

00:41:13.14
Aaron
Yeah.

00:41:17.55
Aaron
Yeah.

00:41:18.01
Seth Macey
That seems to be a controversial opinion. I've seen so many people take both stances on that and and both stances being from artists.

00:41:30.02
Aaron
Yeah, I think when anything's moving,

00:41:30.09
Eric
Are you really an artist if you're trying to cater to the world instead of like expressing your own vision?

00:41:36.88
Seth Macey
Yeah, I guess like to play devil's advocate, you are sharing it. So there is some hope that it lands because you could have,

00:41:46.83
Eric
I would disagree.

00:41:48.62
Seth Macey
You could essentially just create, right? You could just create and not share.

00:41:51.98
Eric
Okay. Well, okay. So I like it when it lands with people. I like it when I change someone's mind about something, but that has zero effect on...

00:42:03.12
Eric
whether it was worth the effort or not. Like I get all of the benefits once I finished processing the image and whatever comes after is just like a bonus.

00:42:05.59
Seth Macey
All right.

00:42:13.49
Eric
It's not an expectation or a requirement or like, I don't need any kind of external validation.

00:42:16.27
Aaron
Yeah.

00:42:20.45
Seth Macey
Fair.

00:42:20.93
Aaron
It's clear your, your, his, his artistic bubble involves him and his, what he, what he gets out of the art.

00:42:21.05
Seth Macey
So I guess like.

00:42:30.53
Aaron
If it lands,

00:42:30.70
Eric
And that's, that's something

00:42:32.17
Aaron
or doesn't land, it's not going to change his process. He's not gonna, he's not gonna put up a photo of birch trees that meant a lot to him for whatever reason. And and that moment meant a lot and it gets zero likes and be like, well, i'll never fucking doing that again.

00:42:46.26
Eric
Exactly.

00:42:46.37
Aaron
It doesn't, it's not that does.

00:42:47.67
Eric
It's not going to sway in my opinion either way. Cause that's ah also another trap. Like if you post a photo of something and it blows up and goes viral and you're like, oh i'm going to be the, you know, the fucking whatever guy, you know, I can't think of anything right now, but you know, and you you just want to like recreate that success and then you just like become redundant because your motive is no longer pure.

00:42:59.57
Aaron
Yeah.

00:43:03.17
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:43:12.35
Eric
You don't have like,

00:43:13.32
Aaron
Yeah.

00:43:14.31
Eric
Yeah, you're driven by external validation.

00:43:15.12
Seth Macey
yeah

00:43:15.36
Aaron
I've seen a lot of, I've seen a lot of decent photographers early on, kind of when drones started to get really nice, get attention for their drone fall shots.

00:43:16.16
Eric
and

00:43:23.87
Aaron
And then they're stuck drone. They're now drone photographers. And I feel like they're, they can't come back.

00:43:28.33
Eric
Yeah.

00:43:30.86
Eric
Or they like photograph a naked girl in a landscape and then obviously they get a lot of likes.

00:43:35.46
Seth Macey
And that's it.

00:43:35.92
Aaron
Game over. over. Game over.

00:43:38.09
Eric
Yeah, you're doing it.

00:43:38.50
Aaron
over yeah

00:43:40.67
Seth Macey
So do you think it's, would it be fair to revise it to the audience comes last, but it does matter or not even that? It's almost this weird paradox because if the audience, so in the Rick Rubin case, the fact that he did not care about the audience is what led to his success. But then the fact that people liked it also led to his success.

00:44:03.98
Aaron
I think there's a difference between art and and business.

00:44:04.65
Eric
Mm-hmm.

00:44:07.80
Seth Macey
Right.

00:44:08.19
Aaron
So when art becomes business, there's a difference than art itself.

00:44:14.53
Aaron
And the artist, then people try to start to monetize it.

00:44:15.92
Seth Macey
right

00:44:18.10
Aaron
Then the audience does matter, but does it matter to the artist or does it matter to all the middlemen and producers and record labels or whoever's running the gallery for you or ah putting your photos up in the restaurant?

00:44:33.09
Aaron
ah Do you have a following? Are they, are you going to bring people in? Are you going to advertise it? Like then it becomes a different game versus someone that's truly Photography is tough too.

00:44:44.78
Aaron
And Seth, we've talked about this a little bit too, where it's like, it's a skill. I think that you can get a lot of attention for at a, at a middle level versus I'm trying to articulate this.

00:45:04.36
Aaron
There's a lot of piano players in the world. There's only a few where you're like, holy, like you, that's a piece of your body, that piano.

00:45:12.16
Seth Macey
Right.

00:45:13.35
Aaron
But if you go on Instagram, you could see, i could see a million photographers that have well like, that's a great moment that you captured with this really nice equipment.

00:45:23.75
Aaron
Like great job. But the art of photography, the, the everything that it used to be and can still be there's, there is a difference. There's like a,

00:45:37.59
Aaron
there's ah There's a difference between like um curated pop music and someone that like spent four years writing like their memoirs into into an album, and like it's it's just for them.

00:45:51.00
Aaron
Or Bon Iver, who went into a cabin after a breakup with two microphones and a guitar and made an incredible album. like there's For no one but his breakup, in a sense.

00:46:03.18
Aaron
And then it becomes big, but I don't, yeah.

00:46:03.66
Eric
Yeah, the, the pure stuff is always the most impactful and it doesn't always become popular, but

00:46:14.74
Eric
yeah, it, uh, I don't know. I think I've always like operated under the philosophy or hope that if I.

00:46:26.79
Eric
do my very best and do what I care the most about, it's most likely for other people to care about it as well. But like if it, I've also just been very lucky. It's not like I've done things to make it work financially, thankfully. And I, that's the thing I never would cause it just, it would defeat the whole purpose of this pursuit, like of being a full-time photographer.

00:46:52.01
Eric
So if for whatever reason it stopped working out financially, instead of like

00:46:54.73
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:47:03.01
Eric
betraying my integrity and doing things that I don't feel comfortable doing for the sake of making a living, I would just do something else to make a living. Cause I, I just, this is very sacred to me and I, I very actively protect it any way I can.

00:47:18.03
Eric
Cause it's just like, yeah, such a great enriching experience in my life.

00:47:18.72
Seth Macey
um

00:47:22.31
Seth Macey
That's a great point. I mean, you hear, we've heard people all the time who say, oh, I want to, i want to become a photographer because I want it to be my living. And I say, well, why? If you want to make money with your camera, if that's the sole reason you want to get into photography, that doesn't really make much sense. I mean, if it's just about the money, you could go do anything else and and have the exact same outcome.

00:47:43.21
Seth Macey
Like there has to be some I think you need to be further on the artist spectrum than the businessman spectrum to an extent.

00:47:55.06
Seth Macey
I think it's smart if you can figure out ways to monetize, but I mean, if that's your sole reason, i don't really, as you said, it doesn't make much sense because I can, I can go be a mechanic. I can go be a pilot. I can, I can, I can go do any, anything really.

00:48:12.03
Eric
Yeah, I see a lot of nature photographers become nature photographers so they can teach workshops.

00:48:12.08
Seth Macey
Right.

00:48:19.37
Eric
And ah like for me, I was never like, oh, i'm going to become a photographer so I can sell tutorial videos and books and teach workshops. Those are just things that naturally happened when people reached out to learn from me without any initiative on my own.

00:48:32.08
Seth Macey
And you're sharing a workshop on on something you care about. You're sharing a workshop on something you care about. I mean, in your example, if it's just about selling workshops, go sell a workshop on something you're really passionate about, whether it's yoga or or mountaineering or whatever.

00:48:43.20
Eric
Yeah.

00:48:51.32
Aaron
Yeah, that makes sense.

00:48:52.69
Seth Macey
Right?

00:48:53.84
Aaron
Yeah, I think perfectly.

00:48:57.61
Seth Macey
So there was another quote in your one of your videos. Pulling a lot from those, but that's okay. It's full of good stuff. ah You since so said so much of our time as photographers is spent not actually photographing things, which is so true.

00:49:09.66
Seth Macey
You know, we're driving places. We're in and the shower. Scrub a dub dub. How are you protect practicing photography when you physically don't have a camera in your hand? And part two to this question, when is it beneficial for you to just think about anything else other than photography?

00:49:28.65
Eric
Yeah, so I'll answer the second question first. I'm never actively thinking about photography unless I'm, don't know, like if I'm editing a tutorial video, you know, that's

00:49:34.46
Seth Macey
Cool.

00:49:41.73
Eric
That's pretty focused, but I'm never like actively thinking about like practicing photography, taking a photo. I am always actively observing my surroundings no matter where I am. If I'm inside my house, I notice light coming through the window, ah you know, unique things, small miracles created by nature all around me.

00:50:01.70
Eric
am observant of people, you know, their gestures and am a careful listener. That's kind of just like a natural character trait that I have, but it's also something I've tried to develop because I feel like you can learn a lot of things if you're quiet and you're just like attuned and observant of the world around you instead of always like actively doing stuff and speaking and things like that. So I feel like, um

00:50:29.61
Eric
yeah, like one of the best things you can do is just learn how, like, I think that's kind of a fallacy that A lot of photographers um are guilty of like thinking that you just turn it on when you're somewhere spectacular and you have your camera in your backpack, as opposed to something that you can actively engage in and practice 24 seven by just looking at things closer, decluttering your mind and being an open receptacle for different things around you.

00:51:01.05
Seth Macey
So being in a state of almost constant immersion.

00:51:04.97
Eric
Mind, mindfulness. Yeah.

00:51:06.89
Aaron
Yeah. It's amazing. ah did not do photography my whole life, but the, the change in the way you see things. And was, ah I mean, this is six years ago, starting this and just the, especially when you're passionate about something and you have that rocket booster of like obsession in the beginning, you start to really recognize that I am looking and scanning everything.

00:51:34.20
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

00:51:35.90
Aaron
every leaf that's turned in a weird way, like gets you the dog head tilt, like, huh? Oh, that's interesting. And just the fascination with patterns and nature and how many photos you take in the beginning and trying to keep that, keep that rocket boosters as long as you can and keep noticing things and keep pointing things out.

00:51:58.50
Aaron
My photograph photography friends that live local, like those are the only people that text and are like, look at the clouds today. And it's like, Yeah, they're photographers.

00:52:06.17
Eric
Yeah.

00:52:07.24
Aaron
Like they, they notice like, wow, that's cool. Or like, like that's different or that's unique. Like those are the people that notice the world. And it's, it's kind of like a sixth sense, like a different, you get a different view on everything.

00:52:21.59
Aaron
And maybe that's where like the city, like head down, like financial,

00:52:27.07
Aaron
mindset of like money and business. Like I just don't understand because it's, it's like, I feel like you have like, I want to rip the blinders off.

00:52:31.02
Seth Macey
Thank you.

00:52:35.34
Aaron
It's in the woods.

00:52:35.50
Eric
Yeah, it's super shallow.

00:52:37.81
Aaron
It does seem, I'm not judging and maybe it's a whole different world. Maybe one that i just don't understand. And they might say the same thing to me. Like you, you don't get numbers and you don't, this idea of, uh, yeah, yeah, for sure.

00:52:46.95
Eric
It's a fair judgment. and The natural world existed before. so

00:52:52.29
Aaron
was just trying to be nice to our financial bro. This nurse. Yeah.

00:52:55.73
Eric
Sometimes I'll catch myself like if I'm talking to somebody and there's like a tree behind them and it's like perfectly centered behind them, I'll take a few steps the side so the tree's in a more pleasing spot, like according to their body.

00:53:06.74
Aaron
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

00:53:08.37
Seth Macey
Sorry, I was just placing you better in the scene.

00:53:10.98
Aaron
yeah

00:53:11.23
Eric
Yeah, just to enjoy the moment a little more, make it more aesthetic.

00:53:14.80
Seth Macey
You were standing in the wrong.

00:53:14.88
Eric
i i I grew up skateboarding and um before I got into photography, i would constantly see like urban environments in terms of like, could this be skated in a certain way? Like connecting objects together to see if you could like,

00:53:31.84
Eric
You know, if there's like a small bank, like if you could launch off of it and like grind on a handrail or something or like the height of ledges and rails and things like I was always like viewing the world through that lens.

00:53:42.48
Eric
And then I noticed once I got into photography, ah was kind of just automatically composing everything as well. It's just something that happens. And I still like look at urban environments in terms of like whether it can be skateboarded or not.

00:53:55.44
Aaron
There's a quote from Adam Carolla that says he drives by and he see a kid skateboarding and he goes, I know that kid's going to be all right. And I think getting into the, the practice of practicing skateboarding and the repetitions, and I want to do a kickflip and it's going to take me a thousand times and broken bones and whatever it is to get there.

00:54:17.64
Aaron
What has skateboarding taught you ah in in terms of that quote in life and with photography?

00:54:25.79
Eric
Yeah, definitely perseverance. Definitely physical pain isn't the worst thing that can happen to you. Resilience, a lot of mental fortitude because you can go crazy knowing you can do something but not being able to. And sometimes, you know, having it take several days, having to return and try again and just like being defeated, but not being ultimately defeated on a constant basis.

00:54:48.80
Aaron
Yeah. It's a, it's that. And when he said that, I was like music too. If someone got through the pain of learning guitar or piano or any instrument, uh, they kind of get the blueprint of this is going to suck and I'm going to suck, but I want to get past that.

00:55:08.34
Aaron
And a lot of people stop at the, this sucks. Uh, not for me, you know, think it's,

00:55:12.10
Eric
Yep. They want everything to be easy and yeah, they're going to take the path of least resistance, not realizing that resistance is like how things get stronger and solidified.

00:55:20.30
Aaron
Yeah. Right.

00:55:26.00
Aaron
yeah

00:55:26.97
Seth Macey
Yeah, I mean, skateboarding, songwriting, language learning, I think literally everything just ends up being repetitions. it has It can't be any other way.

00:55:37.99
Seth Macey
It's just...

00:55:38.49
Eric
You can't learn something in your first attempt and like be as good as you can possibly be just from doing it once.

00:55:44.26
Seth Macey
Right, and not only that, it's not just things, ah you know, eccentric things and like skateboarding or songwriting or learning Mandarin.

00:55:44.99
Aaron
and

00:55:53.28
Seth Macey
It's every single thing is reps. to become good at it.

00:55:57.58
Eric
Mm-hmm.

00:55:57.96
Seth Macey
Not just these kind of like fringe activities.

00:56:01.51
Eric
Yeah, just lifting weights, right?

00:56:01.58
Seth Macey
Every...

00:56:02.91
Eric
Like it's literally reps and it's like the most mundane thing you can do, like lifting up heavy stuff, but you can learn so much by doing it.

00:56:04.98
Aaron
Yeah.

00:56:07.81
Seth Macey
And the next... Yeah, and next week I'll lift something two and a half pounds heavier for the same amount of reps. I mean, I'll do that over the course of four years.

00:56:13.70
Aaron
Do you want to Seth, to ah Seth, to your point, do you want to know what the most cruel game is because of that?

00:56:13.91
Eric
Yeah.

00:56:15.55
Seth Macey
It's literally... What? but

00:56:21.76
Aaron
Golf.

00:56:23.12
Seth Macey
It's going to be golf, I bet.

00:56:23.50
Aaron
Golf.

00:56:24.39
Seth Macey
Yep, of course it's golf.

00:56:25.89
Aaron
Because anyone can hit their first shot and maybe hit the best shot they're going to hit in the next thousand first. So it's when i used to teach golf, I would talk to people like, could you, if I give you a guitar, could you by accident play, ah whatever piece Van Halen right now by accident?

00:56:34.79
Seth Macey
Right.

00:56:44.69
Aaron
Could you do that? Yeah.

00:56:46.62
Seth Macey
True.

00:56:46.88
Aaron
Every other thing you have to scaffold up to a point. Golf's that one thing that drives you nuts because it's the ball still and you can hit some good shots. Even if your form is terrible, it's unbelievable.

00:56:58.87
Eric
Yeah, because like anybody can swing a club and get lucky.

00:57:03.89
Aaron
Yeah.

00:57:04.04
Eric
Like there's enough room for luck, I guess.

00:57:05.51
Seth Macey
Can photography be that way? You put it on auto, put it in the right section, right direction, and boom. You got a masterpiece? I could argue it there too.

00:57:12.42
Eric
Well.

00:57:14.17
Seth Macey
Potentially.

00:57:14.29
Aaron
Yeah.

00:57:17.01
Eric
Yeah, definitely. Like your, your hit rate, like, yeah, some people can get lucky every now and again, you know, a broken clock is right twice a day, but, um, yeah, that's the thing.

00:57:24.35
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:57:28.23
Eric
Like it's, it's still not intentional. So it's like, can you intentionally create something that is meaningful and profound and it sustains attention, you know?

00:57:31.09
Seth Macey
Right.

00:57:40.26
Seth Macey
Yeah,

00:57:41.44
Eric
Cause sometimes like the moment can just kind of do all the work for you and it's very obvious how you can portray it. And then people are impressed by it, but there's really not any kind of like imprint on your part.

00:57:54.69
Eric
You didn't really like do anything except to stand in the right place at the right time, which I hate that saying, by the way, like photography is all about being in the right place the right time.

00:58:05.11
Seth Macey
yeah almost as if it's by accident. What if you're in the right place at the right time and it's an early you're doing though?

00:58:07.98
Eric
Exactly.

00:58:11.83
Aaron
Yeah.

00:58:12.61
Seth Macey
Then what? Do you still hate it? If you're in the right place.

00:58:16.00
Eric
Well, it's just never at the wrong time. You just got see the right thing. Like it's never a wrong time to do photography or a wrong place.

00:58:20.30
Aaron
Yeah.

00:58:21.59
Seth Macey
There you go.

00:58:22.86
Eric
Like,

00:58:23.94
Aaron
Yeah, and you're not, you wouldn't be standing in the wrong place the wrong time and have a picture of it. Or would you?

00:58:29.62
Eric
yeah.

00:58:30.67
Aaron
but then it would be the right place.

00:58:32.99
Eric
Right.

00:58:33.85
Aaron
The right time. Hmm.

00:58:38.13
Aaron
Huh.

00:58:39.13
Eric
I guess if you make a good photo, it's always right place, right time.

00:58:39.18
Seth Macey
My.

00:58:39.63
Aaron
I'm like,

00:58:44.44
Eric
But that's like after the fact.

00:58:44.83
Aaron
yeah

00:58:48.19
Eric
It's not like something you determined before.

00:58:51.67
Aaron
would i ah Another thing I really noticed about your page is you're out in Utah. And unless I saw that, I think, and there's a few recognizable spots, but it's not all the big spots.

00:58:58.99
Seth Macey
Thank you.

00:59:06.17
Aaron
not here's angels landing and observation point at Zion and ah the arches. Let's get some astro at arches. Let's do like all the, all the classic things you have to, you have to, it's a, it's a deeper layer.

00:59:23.29
Aaron
And I think that's important for people to not be blinded by ah living out East in Connecticut ah of all places. Uh, it is, it is difficult for landscape and you have to, you have to go out and be creative and get, Oh, here's a little waterfall. I'm going to make something out of this. Uh, I love how the light is here. i'm going to come back tomorrow and and kind of sit on this for a minute.

00:59:46.89
Aaron
Uh, traveling out West for the first time or seeing certain places like coming through the bend at yo Yosemite and being right down that Valley is kind of like, well, I guess this photo is good. Like it's so obvious, right? Versus trying to like, maybe going to take my 600 millimeter and zoom in on that far peak or that waterfall or like changing it up versus just seeing like,

01:00:13.29
Aaron
the impressiveness of such landscapes that are out there and trying to see something deeper or more unique is tough and a skill that, that you definitely have. Because like I said, on your page, you'd go through and you're like, that's a cool image, but it could almost be anywhere for some of it.

01:00:33.89
Aaron
A lot of it.

01:00:36.62
Aaron
Like your fall stuff is really great and enticing, and but it doesn't scream Utah's big. How many national parks are there? Seven?

01:00:46.23
Eric
Five.

01:00:46.90
Aaron
Five? Utah's big five. doesn't scream that, which I think –

01:00:55.11
Aaron
beginning amateur photographers get stuck in that sort of, I need this banger. I need this banger. I need this banger. And becomes automatic. It almost becomes like AI versus, yeah, versus heart and emotion.

01:01:06.09
Eric
Very generic.

01:01:10.99
Eric
Yeah, i I would say I don't have a propensity nor an aversion towards any kind of photograph. It's more just that the obvious stuff doesn't excite me.

01:01:25.09
Eric
So when I see something that's very obvious, it is not like it just doesn't in inspire me to try and create a photograph.

01:01:25.41
Aaron
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

01:01:34.71
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

01:01:34.98
Aaron
yeah

01:01:36.55
Seth Macey
I mean, just looking at your Instagram page like I'm doing right now, all the pieces glue each other together, if that makes sense. It's a consistent commitment to an art form and style that when surrounded by one another becomes the sum of its parts in a nice way.

01:02:03.40
Seth Macey
That's the best way I can articulate it. Perhaps you can do a better job of your own work. Or is that roughly close?

01:02:11.69
Aaron
Yeah. Is your profile intentional in that way or is it mood or just theme for a little while? You know, like this is what I'm feeling for a bit and this is what I'm posting.

01:02:22.54
Seth Macey
I just look like i'm reading a book as I scroll with chapters that make sense.

01:02:26.07
Aaron
Yeah. Chapters. i would Like there's chapters. Mm-hmm.

01:02:31.46
Eric
Well, so a lot of that is due to the fact that I release images in collections. I never released single images. So when I release a collection, i release those images like in succession on social media.

01:02:46.06
Eric
So yeah, you're going to see like groupings of photos because those are collections that I curated and sequenced and everything very intentionally. But if you're talking about the nebulous,

01:02:58.92
Eric
facet of photography, which we refer to as style, that is not something I've intentionally crafted or it's not anything contrived or intentional. That is just the natural byproduct of going out and photographing things that I find genuinely interesting and that I care about.

01:03:08.27
Aaron
Thank you.

01:03:14.81
Seth Macey
Yeah.

01:03:15.13
Eric
So the more personal you are, the more personality your photographs are going to have. As a result, and that just naturally happens. It's not like a lot of people ask, like, how did you develop your style or how can i create my own style so i can stand out? And it's like.

01:03:33.03
Eric
By trying to create a style, you're kind of like.

01:03:37.09
Seth Macey
Yeah.

01:03:37.43
Eric
Not you're kind of hindering yourself from having a ah real one.

01:03:40.79
Seth Macey
Yeah, I mean, just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting you were trying to make a style, for lack of a better term. I just think exactly what you said, it's a byproduct.

01:03:52.35
Seth Macey
And even, you know, you mentioned collections. Just even the collections blend from collection to collection,

01:04:01.19
Seth Macey
not just image to image, um which I think is just a testament to you naturally

01:04:13.21
Seth Macey
sticking to what you find interesting as we've sort of talked about as the overarching it's as simple as that

01:04:19.25
Eric
it's as simple as that yeah like i don't want to

01:04:24.64
Eric
I feel like you might be giving me too much credit even like it's really nothing that profound or skillful.

01:04:30.46
Seth Macey
well i mean even that even you just saying that even you just saying that is you know there's a lot of value in people hearing that

01:04:39.86
Seth Macey
it's It's just simple. I'm not overcomplicating things. I'm just, I'm doing the thing, right?

01:04:44.70
Aaron
That was his exact description of tree house. Not that profound.

01:04:52.74
Seth Macey
What's your podcast called?

01:04:55.44
Eric
It's called brews and views.

01:04:56.76
Seth Macey
Brews and Views. We'll put a link but a link to that in the episode description.

01:04:58.20
Eric
Yeah. It's on YouTube.

01:05:00.62
Seth Macey
and What can people expect if they like that little intermission with your knowledgeable brewery and beer facts?

01:05:07.27
Eric
You can expect a lot of unexpected things. Cause we have some wild tangents very frequently as you would maybe expect if seven or eight guys are drinking together.

01:05:22.65
Seth Macey
Is that how many are on the show?

01:05:23.14
Eric
ah It depends. Yeah. Typically it's five if we have a guest, ah but sometimes we'll have like seven or eight. Like we we've had some episodes where we've had like 10 people.

01:05:34.60
Eric
So um it's really just about getting together and sharing photographs with each other that we found on the internet recently to elevate other photographers and talk about what we like about the images and try to get them a little bit more airtime than their images probably get on social media while people are doomscrolling.

01:05:36.36
Seth Macey
Oh, my God.

01:05:55.28
Eric
So I think you can learn a lot about photography by watching us, you know, point out things that we like about certain images.

01:05:55.61
Aaron
That's cool.

01:05:56.34
Seth Macey
Thank

01:06:03.01
Eric
I mean, we have incredible guests on like all the time, like Hans Straughn, Richard Martin, um Sarah Marino, Alex Noriega. Like we've had David Thompson. We've had so many guests that are all incredible.

01:06:15.68
Eric
So it's really cool to see what kinds of photographs they like because they never share their own. It's all about sharing other people's photographs. So it's kind of cool to see like what your favorite photographers like and why they like it and hear them break it down while they're also a bit looser and more comfortable and maybe drop some F-bombs.

01:06:36.16
Seth Macey
Do you guys do this in person or is it virtual?

01:06:39.44
Eric
I wish we could do it in person and be even more outrageous. But yeah, we we do over Zoom.

01:06:44.26
Seth Macey
It is hard. It is hard. Well, we'll put a link to that in the episode description for people who are interested in that. Check that out as long along with all your other links. Eric, it's been a pleasure talking with to you today, man. Really appreciate it.

01:06:56.09
Eric
You guys as well. Nice to meet you. Thanks for the chat.

01:06:58.23
Aaron
Yeah. Thank you. thank you