Building Confidence in Your Photography with Reps & Risk

In this episode, we explore how taking creative risks and embracing repetition can transform your photography journey. From shifting focus to storytelling over quantity, to navigating new challenges like two-camera video interviews, we discuss the importance of stepping outside your comfort zone to grow. You'll hear personal stories about overcoming self-doubt, learning to trust your instincts, and finding the balance between passion and mastery. This conversation is perfect for photographers ready to build confidence, refine their craft, and take their work to the next level.

Expect to Learn:

• How to embrace discomfort and take creative risk
• Why you should focus on delivering fewer but more impactful images 
• How to elevate your work and create a deeper emotional connection
• How to adopt the right mindset for tackling unfamiliar projects
• The importance of aligning your goals with realistic time and effort

Sponsor:

Thanks to WhiteWall for being our lead sponsor this episode! They're the top choice for photographers who want high-quality prints, with a variety of material options, and who want their work delivered fast in 9 days or less!

Use the code TPM2025 at checkout for 15% off and free shipping for all of June 2025! https://www.whitewall.com/

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Thanks for listening!
Go get shooting, go get editing, and stay focused.

@sethmacey
@mantis_photography
@thephotographermindset

Transcript

00:00:13.39
Seth Macey
Hey, buddy. How was your weekend? Another cabin in the books? What was different about this one compared to your previous ones? Since we're always focused on making things better, like the 1% improvement.

00:00:19.75
Aaron
Oh,

00:00:22.60
Aaron
o yeah, you are right into the firing of questions. Jeez, let me get my bearings straight.

00:00:30.35
Seth Macey
People are here to walk away with something. We can ban or we can chit chat, but like sometimes you gotta throw curve balls or I guess change ups.

00:00:36.62
Aaron
You

00:00:39.97
Aaron
You're right. ah Cabin, weekend. How was it different? It was a bit rushed. This was a I've worked with Warner Camp.

00:00:50.77
Aaron
We've worked with Warner Camp a bunch of times.

00:00:52.36
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

00:00:52.92
Aaron
um So just we have a good relationship. They've been wanting me to come up to... ah shouldn't say like that. I offered a long time ago. They've asked a few times, hey, could you come up to their new place, the the Tackle Box, they call it.

00:01:06.71
Aaron
It's a nice little...

00:01:07.19
Seth Macey
Oh, good name.

00:01:08.86
Aaron
Yeah, it's a nice little fishing bungalow, I would say, on Lake Champlain ah in Vermont. It was, or it is a bit of a drive, and just the timing didn't work out.

00:01:21.31
Aaron
One time they wanted me to come up, it was Mother's Day. just like, I can't do that. Mom's first. Yeah.

00:01:28.50
Seth Macey
How boy.

00:01:29.72
Aaron
A boy. And, but then my son had a soccer tournament up in Burlington, Vermont, which is about 45 turned out to be like an hour and five ah minutes north of where that cabin was.

00:01:44.32
Aaron
It was a two day tournament. There was a room block. It was pretty expensive. Honestly, I was not crazy about dropping a good amount of money for a crummy room for two nights for a soccer tournament.

00:01:57.04
Aaron
Uh, and I reached out to them and I was like, Hey, this could work out.

00:01:57.17
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

00:01:59.95
Aaron
I see on the calendar, your it's vacant for this weekend coming up. Uh, if it stays that way, would you want me to stay there? And I could do a couple of things. I have a few ideas for you that I would do.

00:02:13.42
Aaron
And they agreed and they were like, that's great. That's what we need. So it was really nice to not i feel like I had to go nuts at a cabin.

00:02:24.65
Seth Macey
Yeah. You mentioned to me, I don't know if this is, i you know, I just got into this question right away because you could easily fall into the routine of I'm doing something that's working and I'm just going to keep running that formula, which is great.

00:02:30.04
Aaron
Yeah.

00:02:38.66
Seth Macey
I think, especially if you're income focused, this is working. I have a routine. I have a system. I go in, I do it. I leave. It works. I've paid my dues figuring out what does and what doesn't work.

00:02:49.84
Seth Macey
But I think the creator in us could get tired of that. um Maybe, maybe not. Of course, it's not a one size fits all, but I could see the artist in us being like, I want to do something different. I want to do something that pushes the boundaries of myself or and what maybe the client is expecting.

00:03:05.95
Seth Macey
So that's why I started with that question. And I knew that before you left, you said something interesting to me. And I kind of like this. You said, I'm going to companies now and I'm saying, what are you missing?

00:03:17.34
Seth Macey
i can do that. And then just doing that one thing as opposed to trying to capture everything and you're and in the instance of a cabin. I'm going photograph all the rooms and lifestyle photos and this.

00:03:28.84
Seth Macey
And you're like, nope, I'm just going to do drones in 4K.

00:03:31.98
Aaron
Yeah.

00:03:32.77
Seth Macey
That's all I'm doing because you've said you've needed it. How have you liked that approach?

00:03:38.19
Aaron
I liked it. And with this one, i i could kind of tell by the cabin, it was, it's a small cabin. It's not, it's not massive. It's not overwhelming. It's not, There's not tons of space.

00:03:50.21
Aaron
Dirt and glass was there in the winter. They did a lot. They've been on our show. They're awesome. They're maybe the, the ah example of cabin photography that you'd want to follow in terms of, I feel like their style, their, their way they market, the way they go about their business.

00:04:09.11
Aaron
It's, I don't know. It's, it's the one to look at. It's the epitome.

00:04:12.78
Seth Macey
Textbook.

00:04:13.40
Aaron
Yeah. Textbook. So they were there in the winter. They took a lot of indoor stuff. And I felt like this is mrs thorough. There's nothing missing. There's nothing that I'm going to really improve on.

00:04:26.73
Aaron
I'm not going to waste my time necessarily and waste their time, like going through these photos that they already have or don't really need. Or maybe there's a slightly different look.

00:04:38.87
Aaron
But like I said, they they aced it. And i knew they were going back in... of couple of weeks. So like right when I got there and I posted, he reached out to me and he's like, Oh, I love that place. We're going back in a couple of weeks as well.

00:04:53.92
Aaron
I was like, all right, well, I'm definitely not going to like overdo what's already been done. So like you said, and

00:05:02.80
Seth Macey
by somebody who may have it be better than you.

00:05:06.05
Aaron
Yeah, and it's that's fine. And they already did it. Like I've already seen, it's just like I said, it's a small place.

00:05:08.85
Seth Macey
Right.

00:05:11.83
Aaron
There's only so many angles. I'm also, I'm huge. Like, and especially in a little place where I have to duck to like get through doors. it It wasn't wasn't appealing.

00:05:23.27
Aaron
i can take the ah I can take the hint and be like, ah photos of me in this place are not going to sell this place. Like they don't know my height.

00:05:31.41
Seth Macey
You just got to do the George Costanza and get on on a couch and and your skivvies and let it rip.

00:05:33.59
Aaron
yeah It's just, yeah.

00:05:38.40
Aaron
Well, maybe. But, or on my knees, so it looked like a normal human using, like, the kitchen.

00:05:43.83
Seth Macey
You could put go on your knees and put your shoes on your knees.

00:05:46.60
Aaron
Yeah, exactly. That move.

00:05:47.42
Seth Macey
And then you'll be like and

00:05:49.88
Aaron
Yes.

00:05:49.99
Seth Macey
and not eat foot ten

00:05:52.48
Aaron
So I was like, you know what? I'm not doing, i'm not doing lifestyle stuff. I'm not going to pose for things. It's, it's, it's not going to be my a work. I'm going to focus on what I do have that some people don't have the FPV drone.

00:06:06.53
Seth Macey
Right.

00:06:06.64
Aaron
I have my other drone. I'm going to focus on flying through the property. i'm going to focus on some like B roll, uh, panning shots with my drone. I'm going to capture the summer there. I'm going to capture the lighting the best that I can. I love doing Astro with cabins. I feel like that is fun ah and something unique that I can offer. So I did that and nailed that shot at a clear night on Saturday and just some drone stuff. And I sent them 10 photos.

00:06:36.64
Aaron
And when I was doing it, I was like, i like, I hope they don't balk at this. And they absolutely loved it. And three, maybe four even of the photos had nothing to do with the cabin.

00:06:51.15
Aaron
It was more like, the living in Vermont. One was of the moon that was taken from the cabin. and One was of Ben painting ah his watercolors.

00:07:01.84
Aaron
He got a cool camping watercolor thing from his grandmother and was loving that and painting it.

00:07:05.40
Seth Macey
Hmm.

00:07:07.09
Aaron
But it was like, was a nice moment. And they're like, you captured like what this, we want this to be about is connecting to nature and experience.

00:07:12.02
Seth Macey
Yeah, you capture an experience.

00:07:14.53
Aaron
And, and that was different for me. And handing that in felt different in terms of like, There's a couple of bangers here. Like I like a couple of them, but normally I'm like handing in 40, 50 photos, maybe 30 at the, at the least.

00:07:30.10
Seth Macey
And the majority are of the of the building.

00:07:34.10
Aaron
Yeah.

00:07:35.20
Seth Macey
Like two,

00:07:35.31
Aaron
And inside outside, like no, there was not one photo of the inside of the place. Not one.

00:07:40.22
Seth Macey
why, yeah, like you said, why do it if they have it done unless it's for your own portfolio?

00:07:40.61
Aaron
didn't even take one. Yeah.

00:07:45.02
Seth Macey
I love that because two years ago, maybe three years ago, you and i would have just been tunnel vision on got to shoot the building, got to shoot the product and not shooting the experience, not but not building that glue like we've talked about.

00:07:59.18
Aaron
Yeah, and the one thing you in terms of having a uniqueness in your photography, this goes to everyone, is finding like everyone's family, everyone's situation, style, clothing has nuances and and differences, right? So I could take a photo of the kitchen, so could the next 400 photographers take the same photo of the kitchen unless they have a major overhaul.

00:08:25.73
Aaron
But no one's going to, or unless you absolutely copy it, no one's going to get that same watercolor camping coloring book and have a photo of their kid in a cool cozy sweatshirt doing ah a lantern, a camping lantern, watercolor.

00:08:34.23
Seth Macey
Thank you.

00:08:46.74
Aaron
Like those are the unique things that I think after this has been done, you take those photos and you're like, oh, this, this tells a story. And this is like a really unique moment at the cabin, at the place, the experience that no one can almost recreate.

00:09:04.56
Seth Macey
What do you think has changed in your confidence and in your approach that's allowed you to feel... You mentioned the ah slight discomfort in handing in assets like that, what's changed that has allowed you to actually send an email with discomfort, but with confidence that contains not entirely bangers, but things that make sense when viewed as a, as a carousel or as an album or as a gallery.

00:09:27.77
Aaron
Yeah, that's a great question.

00:09:35.26
Aaron
Yeah.

00:09:38.98
Aaron
Now I've handed in folders that people love. I've handed in folders that we had to discuss and have conversations about or style was different or re-editing.

00:09:49.82
Aaron
Like okay I've experienced it all. But even the folders that I love and that the person loves and they're like, Oh my God, this is amazing. I have to admit no one's posting 50 photos of mantis photography.

00:10:07.22
Aaron
on their site for their product. They love the photos. They pick out the few that they want, but then the next photographer comes or the next project comes or gets buried in an email or whatever happens.

00:10:21.72
Seth Macey
Thank you.

00:10:22.00
Aaron
It's rare that every photo that I put out there and put my heart and soul into gets used like very rare.

00:10:32.41
Aaron
And I started to get used to the fact that, okay, Well, I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what they're, if they're not going to use all of these, I'm not going to double take photos of the kitchen that dirt and glass just took and are great.

00:10:48.97
Aaron
Maybe they have those ones they could use or not use those ones.

00:10:52.60
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

00:10:52.72
Aaron
They specifically, like we narrowed it down to what they specifically wanted for this stay. That's what I'm going to focus on. I'm not going to waste my time and their time, to be honest, taking a bunch of photos that they're just going to keep in a folder somewhere that's taking up space, virtual space, but space for really no reason.

00:11:19.27
Aaron
Now, Warner's camp's great at, I feel like, posting stuff. like They post your stuff recently out of, you know that's two years ago.

00:11:26.34
Seth Macey
That's because I'm so damn good, man.

00:11:28.52
Aaron
Yeah. And they posted a photo of mine, I think, from that same trip recently about it, like a weekend. Like they're good at re like keeping their work, I guess, and not losing it.

00:11:39.38
Aaron
ah So kudos to them. But most in most cases, you feel like you hand over 50 photos and maybe 10 see the light of day. So, okay, it's the 10 were the ones that were used for marketing. The tens the 10 were the ones that were loved.

00:11:58.96
Aaron
The 10 were the ones that were picked. What are those 10 and why? And which ones were left behind? think as you do this more and more, you start to realize like, I don't, I don't need to make this.

00:12:11.88
Aaron
i don't need to have 50 photos if they're not going to be used. Let's figure out the 10 that they really want.

00:12:19.91
Seth Macey
Yeah, I mean, i can be of two minds of this. So you can hand in just the essentials, right? Those 10 that you mentioned. But let's say you hand in 18, knowing that eight are going to be never used.

00:12:34.68
Seth Macey
I can also sometimes see those additional eight as being the parsley on your plate.

00:12:41.67
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

00:12:42.74
Seth Macey
Right where. The server brings out your food and it has the chef's kiss, the presentation that makes it look so good, but people aren't eating the parsley on the dinner plate. Like it's just going in the trash, but it makes the experience wholesome.

00:12:57.68
Seth Macey
That's sometimes how I look at it, but if you cover a plate in parsley, it gets ridiculous, of course.

00:13:03.63
Aaron
yeah I totally agree. and And it matters what you agree as your deliverables also. Like if they're paying for 20 photos, i really try to get 20 great ones and maybe 10 parsley.

00:13:17.07
Aaron
Like I'm a big advocate and you are too, I feel like of over delivering at least a little bit and and giving maybe those 10 extra are the parsley ones or the ones where you put together yourself and Sometimes a photo of um okay ah photo Ben painting his cabin ah his cabin ah lantern on its own has by itself has nothing to do with that.

00:13:44.80
Aaron
That doesn't give any story. to what that cabin is. But if I make a collage with a drone shot from above of this cabin, ah the fire pit that's running and then ah Ben painting this thing, it gives a story, right?

00:14:03.41
Aaron
So putting those together And someone that's a good social media manager or can curate photos, I think that's really important. The curation of photos and putting them together can tell a story that if you don't do that is just parsley.

00:14:20.82
Aaron
But maybe it's an herb that you need like cilantro to put it all together. And then it becomes a full meal.

00:14:27.11
Seth Macey
Yum.

00:14:29.42
Aaron
So I'm with you.

00:14:29.43
Seth Macey
I put those I put cilantro in my burritos.

00:14:33.41
Aaron
Yeah, that's good.

00:14:33.48
Seth Macey
Yummy, yummy. um

00:14:35.19
Aaron
Some people, I think, genetically don't like cilantro.

00:14:37.26
Seth Macey
It tastes like soap or something.

00:14:38.95
Aaron
Yeah, weird.

00:14:39.70
Seth Macey
Yeah, I hear you. It's one of those things where, you know, you hear content is king, but context is also king.

00:14:45.81
Aaron
Yeah.

00:14:47.71
Seth Macey
Right. um I was going to go ahead.

00:14:49.63
Aaron
Yeah, and and and going, there's a there's a trust also that, and and or, i don't I'm not afraid of

00:15:00.71
Aaron
explaining things a little bit or ideas that I have like, Hey, this would be a cool series. Or here's a collage I did of these three things. If you like it or give an idea, I said to them, i was like, listen, I'm willing to collaborate.

00:15:14.56
Aaron
Like I would love not willing. It sounds like I'm willing to, I would love to collaborate if you guys want to. If you want to collaborate on a post, I'm due for a post. I haven't posted in a little bit. Sure. I would love a ah cabin post and i like this work.

00:15:27.55
Aaron
ah Just so you know, all my crops are not the same. So most of them will fit together nicely in a post, but just be careful of that. So not that I'm overstepping my bounds, but just like a heads up in terms of how I want my work presented if we're going to do a collaboration.

00:15:42.55
Seth Macey
Yeah, of course.

00:15:44.54
Aaron
So I think there can be some thought in, took this photo of, you know, you took your photo of your kid painting with watercolors on its own again, man, well, like whatever, but in the whole context of the story, put a story together, curate it and hand that over and say like, I think this would be a cool post. Like, this is what i'm planning to do. Would you want to collaborate on it?

00:16:08.56
Seth Macey
Yeah, and this applies across all those genres.

00:16:10.55
Aaron
Yeah.

00:16:12.05
Seth Macey
Right. Yeah, I think just to rewind a bit, it's one of those things when you see ah business with really good imagery, really good video, I just move on.

00:16:30.24
Seth Macey
Honestly, I'm like, you guys are good.

00:16:30.87
Aaron
yeah

00:16:32.37
Seth Macey
Someone is, you're working with somebody, it seems consistently, who's doing an amazing job.

00:16:32.66
Aaron
yeah

00:16:36.54
Seth Macey
Like, why would I Why would I waste my time? Unless maybe it's something you're really, ah you're something you're really, really interested in and look for a gap. And if it's just not there, why would you try to sell somebody on something they already have?

00:16:50.97
Seth Macey
That's not a solutions oriented mindset.

00:16:55.12
Aaron
Yeah.

00:16:56.58
Seth Macey
Right. So I'm typically this stuff looks great moving on. I appreciate it for how it is, but I don't see a role there for me.

00:17:04.62
Aaron
Yeah. that's It's, it's sales in a way. If you're going door to door and lawn care, and like you're going to knock on the guy's door that has a perfect lawn. Like, well, you, you, you obviously got it.

00:17:17.72
Seth Macey
right Your lawn could be even better, which may be true, but is that the best?

00:17:18.24
Aaron
Yeah.

00:17:20.92
Aaron
Yeah.

00:17:23.22
Seth Macey
Are you setting yourself up for the best success rate or the best yeses?

00:17:27.29
Aaron
No.

00:17:29.26
Seth Macey
The most likely yes.

00:17:31.24
Aaron
The person across the street with the the crap lawn like mine, if you go like, hey, I can get your lawn to look like that. So I can get your profile to look like this profile.

00:17:42.58
Aaron
that Now we have a conversation maybe, you know? And that's where hopefully companies who value imagery and marketing and content will be like, I've been looking for this moment.

00:17:46.09
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

00:17:54.59
Aaron
So let's talk.

00:17:55.38
Seth Macey
Right, which is often the case. But i then I think also people get into the mindset of, oh, they're not doing it, so they probably don't want it. And it's almost like a way to set up.

00:18:07.16
Seth Macey
It's self-sabotaging in a way so that you don't have to get rejected. I've heard that mindset before. It's, oh, they're not, they' they don't have good imagery, so they must not be interested in it or they don't care.

00:18:18.97
Aaron
Yeah.

00:18:20.35
Seth Macey
So I'm not going to bother. Because then if I don't bother, I can't get rejected.

00:18:24.04
Aaron
Right.

00:18:24.73
Seth Macey
Which is all subconscious, right?

00:18:26.86
Aaron
Yeah. And you could be right, but you also could be wrong.

00:18:30.81
Seth Macey
Right, but we tend to focus on being right in the negative because then we can avoid pain and humiliation.

00:18:33.09
Aaron
Yeah.

00:18:39.04
Aaron
The ego, more than anything, wants to be correct. Yeah.

00:18:42.74
Seth Macey
Elaborate.

00:18:43.66
Aaron
So by saying this company, they they don't care about this, they're not gonna hire, they'd probably say no to me anyways, is a way of protecting from that.

00:18:56.83
Aaron
So even if they say no,

00:18:57.13
Seth Macey
Right.

00:18:59.93
Aaron
There's still a bonus that I was right about that. I'm good at sniffing out this business opportunity or not opportunity. I was correct in my assumption.

00:19:11.57
Aaron
So there's still like a protection of the ego being like the story that I believe is true. So it's it's putting that safety out there versus expecting like, oh, this is an opportunity. I bet they'll say yes, they should like this. And then they're no, thank you.

00:19:28.26
Aaron
they're like, oh, that hurts more because I really believed they would want my photography versus the the crap that they have. And I was wrong about that even more.

00:19:39.31
Aaron
So my stuff must really suck. And I was wrong. Okay.

00:19:43.14
Seth Macey
Well, then what? What ends up being the defense for that moving forward, is in your opinion?

00:19:48.78
Aaron
Yeah, then you might, I'm not going to do that again.

00:19:48.75
Seth Macey
Because I could.

00:19:51.47
Seth Macey
Which is so sad.

00:19:52.69
Aaron
Yeah.

00:19:53.68
Seth Macey
um Have you ever felt that way or noticed it? It's hard to be aware of what we're. It sounds so stupid, but you can't be aware of what you're not aware of.

00:20:04.50
Aaron
Yeah, I've, in this, in this weekend... it's a It's a tight space. And I think if there's any area in the cabin industry where I get a little locked, I feel a little locked is, oh, this is like, this is a small space and there's there's neighbors nearby and it's not as clean as I thought in my head or like what I imagined.

00:20:31.46
Aaron
So sometimes when you get there, it takes a while to get a feel of a place. For example, my first night, I wanted to fly the drone at sunset.

00:20:43.31
Aaron
Neighbors, it's these small little lakeside cottages. and And no one's on top of you, but there is a neighbor. It's quiet. It's a lake. Sound really travels. They're watching the sunset and having dinner.

00:20:55.62
Aaron
And I am about to like fly a drone. And I felt like this horrible... cold sweat of like, I don't want to, I don't want to ruin their night right now. Like I don't want to ruin this moment for them.

00:21:08.36
Aaron
And I kind of got locked up. Luckily someone started using a weed whacker, uh, like a couple houses down and I was like, this is my opportunity.

00:21:16.14
Seth Macey
Battle of the robots.

00:21:16.41
Aaron
So I, Yeah, threw the drone up in the back, like more close to the road, and got it up and then flew it into position. And it wasn't as overwhelming because we had the weed whacker in the back. So it kind of saved me.

00:21:29.50
Aaron
However, those moments where you're like, I don't know if I'm getting... I'm not getting much or I'm not like, I don't feel like I'm getting these moments or the sun is setting in a spot that I didn't think it would be. And now I'm a little blocked out and I'm in the shadows.

00:21:44.94
Aaron
Just like all those moments where you're going through it, I have this sort of doubt of like, uh, I'm not delivering right now until you put it up on the computer and you're like, Oh, that's cool.

00:21:52.05
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:21:57.46
Aaron
I can edit this in a cool way.

00:21:58.01
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:21:58.94
Aaron
Or, Oh, that's a good moment. Or, Just even remembering, hey, this is what we agreed on. Like this is, I don't have to go crazy. I didn't have to get 50 amazing shots here.

00:22:11.97
Seth Macey
yeah I feel you. I think what really quells my doubts is I've found a way to introduce that pause between how I'm feeling and my response, like you mentioned all the time.

00:22:24.42
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:22:24.66
Seth Macey
And in that pause, I'm able to say, okay, what has your track record been when you've felt this way? And then I can go, oh yeah, every time you've delivered.

00:22:37.56
Aaron
Yeah.

00:22:37.84
Seth Macey
So why is this time going to be any different? And it doesn't necessarily make the nerves or the anxiety of performance go away, but it brings me a sense of calm in that I've done this a hundred times and it's worked out every time. Why is this going to be any different? Why is this outcome going to be any different? I've been in worse situations where light has been worse, where more things have been going wrong. And I've found a way

00:23:10.88
Seth Macey
Am I suddenly this one time just not going to find a way? I have a track record. I have a i have you know undeniable proof. I have a stack of evidence. And I always remind myself of that in my head.

00:23:24.19
Seth Macey
And it allows me to kind of just settle in. Like you just mentioned, it's just a different maybe approach to it.

00:23:35.06
Aaron
Yeah.

00:23:35.60
Seth Macey
I had that happen this weekend.

00:23:37.79
Aaron
What was this weekend?

00:23:37.98
Seth Macey
Right? Well... not to make it about myself because we were talking about you.

00:23:42.87
Aaron
No, that's, I'm done.

00:23:44.37
Seth Macey
Um, well, i did my first ever two camera video interview with a, a camera, B camera with like a proper setup, worrying about backdrop interviewing people.

00:23:49.23
Aaron
Oh,

00:23:52.93
Aaron
yeah.

00:23:57.24
Seth Macey
And, uh, I had never done a two camera setup with the lavalier mics and it was stressful.

00:24:01.58
Aaron
Yeah.

00:24:03.50
Seth Macey
I was stressing, uh,

00:24:05.51
Aaron
Yeah, it's a lot to manage.

00:24:07.18
Seth Macey
It's a lot to manage. You're managing people who you don't know. You don't know the responses. You don't know and fuck camera battery is going to overheat.

00:24:18.79
Seth Macey
um If there's going noises in the background. All you can do is prepare. and set yourself up in the best situation to win and have confidence in that your preparation will lead you to success.

00:24:35.12
Seth Macey
Now I was very, had a talk with myself and I said, Hey, this is your first time doing a two camera interview. It's going to be the worst one you've ever done.

00:24:46.38
Aaron
Yeah.

00:24:47.46
Seth Macey
And every single one after this roughly will trend upwards in terms of quality. You can prepare in theory and in paper all you want and kind of just doing things on your own time as passion projects. But it's a different element when you're being paid and people aren't expecting things of you and it's for a business. And I accepted this is going to be good.

00:25:08.01
Seth Macey
They're going to be happy with it. I'm going to be satisfied with it. But also understand this is going to be the worst video interview you've ever done because it's your first one.

00:25:15.57
Aaron
yeah

00:25:16.10
Seth Macey
What else can you expect, really?

00:25:19.39
Aaron
So would you learn during those?

00:25:19.63
Seth Macey
It can still be great and be the worst one you've ever done, but I'm just a firm believer that things get better with reps.

00:25:25.51
Aaron
Would you learn from that experience? Any little moments or like, oh.

00:25:30.94
Seth Macey
I learned a lot of things beforehand that I wouldn't have thought of.

00:25:34.20
Aaron
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:25:36.81
Seth Macey
So people listening who do video video interviews, this may be very obvious, but make sure your chair and the person you're interviewing's chair, make sure you guys are at eye level.

00:25:47.48
Seth Macey
Otherwise, you're going to be staring slightly up and away. And what kind of impression, what kind of tone does that give?

00:25:51.01
Aaron
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

00:25:54.21
Seth Macey
um How are you going to... What height are you going to put your cameras at, A and B? Are you going to be dead on eyes? Is it going to be shooting shooting slightly up at them so they seem immense and grander?

00:26:08.70
Seth Macey
it going to be shooting down at them, which gives the sense of... maybe like a vulnerable subject that you're interviewing on camera B, just like small stuff like this that I was researching and I thought to myself, oh my God, this gives a totally different feel.

00:26:21.03
Aaron
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:26:23.35
Seth Macey
this is stuff This isn't just as simple as setting up a camera here and a camera there. where to stand in the frame, like how far off frame as an interviewer to stance relative to your cameras and them in the rule of thirds, just like very technical stuff that is kind of boring to me, but that would make all the difference because I am in that situation most interested in running a good interview, asking good questions. That's why I like the podcast. That's why we do this, right?

00:26:47.82
Seth Macey
I love talking to people. I love getting good responses. I love sharing my opinions and thoughts, whether people like them or not. But that's only a part of the equation, right? You can ask the best questions and be the best interviewer and have the greatest sound bites. But if you're at camera angles suck or you're chopping people's heads off, it's ruined, right?

00:27:05.03
Aaron
Right.

00:27:05.18
Seth Macey
So I was stressed out because I had never done something like this before where people are paying you for it and counting on you to make something great.

00:27:05.32
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:27:17.70
Aaron
yeah

00:27:19.00
Seth Macey
um So you really have two choices. You had the option to not do it. Got the flu, coincidentally. Or you can be a bit of a nervous wreck and do it. And hopefully you're able to remind yourself of all the times you've succeeded when you've been in similar nervous situations.

00:27:39.79
Seth Macey
And that's what I did.

00:27:41.74
Aaron
Yeah.

00:27:42.21
Seth Macey
i finished it. Looking back, there's things i was like, oh, we can do this better next time. But I'm okay with that because I understand this is my first time and it's still a good product.

00:27:51.58
Aaron
Yes. And you were the interviewer as well? Like, did you have to develop the questions?

00:27:54.92
Seth Macey
Yes.

00:27:57.02
Aaron
and Yeah, that's...

00:27:57.55
Seth Macey
Yes. But that part felt easy for me. The part that felt hard for me is like, how do I want to, what am juggling to?

00:28:03.27
Aaron
Yeah, juggling the two...

00:28:05.95
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:28:06.82
Aaron
the juggling the two roles. Like i have to make sure all the sound that's the one that stresses me out the most. I just did a very similar job with that financial firm that I'm working with.

00:28:17.34
Seth Macey
Yeah. Tell me about yours.

00:28:17.58
Aaron
The, just the, and that was the first time too. I felt pretty confident in going in. The one thing that stresses me out is just not having the repetitions, meaning like,

00:28:29.67
Seth Macey
Right. so

00:28:32.27
Aaron
how many times have I used a lavalier mic and wireless ah home and and port where it's all plugged into the camera?

00:28:43.25
Aaron
How many instances do I have under my belt where it worked perfectly? Not many. So the confidence that equipment in like, I'm getting the sound, is it scratching on their sweater? I don't know how the sound's going to come out. I'm going to get home and I'm hoping that the background noise of, in my case, there was a street that was outside and it was a warm day.

00:29:04.34
Aaron
So people at far away had opened the windows and now I'm getting like car noise and going home and being like, I hope that this all worked and it's not like a disaster.

00:29:15.51
Seth Macey
Right.

00:29:17.05
Aaron
Uh, that, that was the most scary part for me. I felt like ah made sure my cameras, I had eyes on my cameras they were they were recording i had someone else being my interviewer so i could kind of move around a bit but that's interesting with like the lights or um the eyes and where they're i was i noticed in the beginning like me watching the interviewer he kept catching like my eyes versus the interviewer because i'm staring at him so i had to kind of

00:29:28.94
Seth Macey
Oh, nice.

00:29:44.11
Aaron
adjust. And as we started over, be like, I can't make eye contact with the interviewer.

00:29:45.30
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:29:48.83
Aaron
Like it has to be their thing. I just have to be staring at the cameras. I can't watch what's going on because I keep catching the person's eyes. So things like that, where you, you catch it on the fly or someone using, um a lot.

00:30:03.32
Aaron
Um, and you're like, that's that's fine. I can cut these out if I have to, but telling someone that is a new thing. Like, hey, the way you're using your language, you're saying you know what I mean a lot.

00:30:13.05
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:30:18.44
Aaron
You know, like I do right now.

00:30:18.71
Seth Macey
Right. Right.

00:30:20.50
Aaron
ah But are Or your nervous pause is an um instead of just pausing. You can pause. Allow yourself to pause. I can edit out pauses much easier and get into it.

00:30:32.72
Aaron
Or giving them little tips on how to you know start their sentence from scratch.

00:30:36.66
Seth Macey
Right.

00:30:36.81
Aaron
So those things, working on the fly, yes, next time those those instances are in your head and you can improve upon them.

00:30:43.93
Seth Macey
right I love this. I love that we're because we've talked about entering the video space for the better part of a year or two now being our new thing and we're rookies at it and it's fun to do hard things and get better at something.

00:30:55.94
Aaron
Right.

00:30:57.68
Seth Macey
Right. And this is <unk> exciting hearing you talk about this.

00:30:58.17
Aaron
yeah

00:31:03.35
Seth Macey
But yeah, I guess I figured um i can't. I also thought about what can I not change? I can't change how people speak, how eloquently they speak if they fill space with likes and ums.

00:31:15.02
Seth Macey
There's nothing I can really do about that.

00:31:16.59
Aaron
right

00:31:17.37
Seth Macey
I can interject like you did. I don't know what kind of success that had in reversing that pattern, but I would have feared that I would make them more anxious. If they're already using filler words like that, perhaps they're uncomfortable. Yeah.

00:31:30.53
Seth Macey
So I just figured, you know what, if there's somebody with lots of likes and ums, I can cut those out by switching from camera A to B, making that cut, because it'll look seamless.

00:31:43.46
Seth Macey
And it's funny, you mentioned you didn't want the extra sound in your video. I wanted the background sounds. There's boats going by because I was filming with a backdrop on a lake. It was for a camp, right?

00:31:53.62
Aaron
Cool. Yeah.

00:31:55.17
Seth Macey
So I want the faint sound of kids screaming, playing, having fun. I want boats in the background and that stuff.

00:31:59.50
Aaron
Yeah, yeah.

00:32:00.79
Seth Macey
So it's just an interest. It's it's interesting all this this, how a video becomes the sum of its parts in this instance, all the small things and the tone that it delivers.

00:32:07.84
Aaron
Yeah.

00:32:10.45
Seth Macey
Do you want background noise in a serious financial firm? Probably not. In my instance, do you want kids screaming faintly far away in boats?

00:32:15.04
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:32:18.22
Seth Macey
Probably like it it gives a different atmosphere. um You know, some of the other things I was looking at, too, that I was like, oh, you know what, that's interesting, because at first I was debating doing being interviewing off screen.

00:32:31.81
Seth Macey
or off to the side as the director, rather.

00:32:33.28
Aaron
Yeah.

00:32:35.12
Seth Macey
or if I wanted to go straight down the barrel where they stare at the camera lens. And I'm glad I went not with staring straight down the barrel and doing off to the other side because after much research, I found that even because my plan was to stand just sort of to the side of the camera and I figured it'd be close enough.

00:32:45.76
Aaron
yeah

00:32:54.05
Seth Macey
And from everything i I read, it said, if it's not straight down, it doesn't work. Like even just the slightest. Yeah.

00:33:02.93
Aaron
So keep it straight down.

00:33:04.55
Seth Macey
No, so don't. Unless you have, they have these devices, I don't know what they're called, but somebody will know, where it's almost like a teleprompter, but it's a mirror where it attaches right above the camera lens and it redirects to the interviewer.

00:33:05.84
Aaron
Don't, don't.

00:33:20.89
Seth Macey
So the person is looking straight at the camera, but they think they're looking at you because it's a mirror reflecting to you off off to the side. Does sense? I don't know what it's called.

00:33:29.97
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

00:33:31.13
Seth Macey
Somebody will. And they, people, most of what I read was if you're going to do it down the barrel, use that. And I was like, I don't have that. So I'm not going to do that. And just that simple decision probably saved me from having ruined, ruined what I was working on.

00:33:39.28
Aaron
Yeah.

00:33:45.64
Aaron
Right.

00:33:46.59
Seth Macey
Um, but now I,

00:33:47.85
Aaron
So what you're saying is in an interview, people look at the camera, but they'll still like catch your eye. They'll still, even if you're close, it's.

00:33:54.07
Seth Macey
Even if you're just, you know when you know, sometimes when you're watching shows and you can see or a bad infomercial and you can see their reading, like that, where it's just not, yeah, yeah, one of those.

00:34:01.74
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. yeah a change in focus a change in where they're looking yeah makes sense now now shooting is one thing the organization afterwards and it might be different you're the director you have more of a maybe a say in terms of i'm going to put this video together with these kids and i'm going to take the good parts and i'm going put it together.

00:34:29.35
Aaron
This is a financial firm and the interviewer, Sydney, who, you know, we went to clapper hollow together.

00:34:35.84
Seth Macey
Oh, cool. She did the interview.

00:34:37.43
Aaron
Yep. So she did the interview. She works at this.

00:34:39.07
Seth Macey
How did she do? Of course she did.

00:34:40.19
Aaron
That's great. So she gave them questions ahead of time and just kind of prompt them to get going on it. ah And she was good about doing some of that.

00:34:50.73
Aaron
Hey, you said, you said this, they're like, let's start that over. um and try not to say you know to end the sentence like she was good because she had a relationship with them so the what was i going with this oh in in working with her though now i have i have a long let's say 30 minutes of interview

00:35:02.61
Seth Macey
Right.

00:35:16.38
Aaron
And I had to sync it all up, put it all together and then send it to her. Like that's the long cut and be like, what parts do you want?

00:35:25.48
Seth Macey
Right.

00:35:25.69
Aaron
Right? So then she did a great job of sending me back a document with like 122 to 134. love that segment.

00:35:33.86
Seth Macey
Perfect.

00:35:34.21
Aaron
that. and i just cut all that And then I was like, okay, this is how I interpreted your thing. we need i think we need to do one more pass and sent it back to her. And then she looked at what she thought she wanted to cut and she switched things around a little bit.

00:35:47.48
Aaron
And i was like, now I'm going to do the AB sort of stuff and try to make a final copy now that we have it.

00:35:52.14
Seth Macey
Hmm. Hmm.

00:35:53.05
Aaron
But there's there's been a lot of stuff that I haven't done before with like back and forth, back and forth, really organized. And when you have two cameras and you start slicing a lot and moving and getting rid of spaces, it's very easy to get a little lost and be like, Oh crap. Like I didn't sync that audio with that part. And I move that now, where am I now? Do they line up?

00:36:15.58
Aaron
Like there's been a few close calls. It's gone knock on wood really smoothly, but there's been moments where I'm like, really, you know, when you think really hard and we're like, okay, if I do this, am I going to, I need to select all of this and move it.

00:36:30.15
Aaron
Oh, like there's been a lot of that because one, one, one wrong switch of something or moving or deleting could affect the whole flow when you have two cameras and you're not really focusing on both of them at the same time.

00:36:32.30
Seth Macey
a lot of concentration.

00:36:45.02
Aaron
So that's been interesting too.

00:36:45.64
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:36:48.42
Seth Macey
Yeah. I mean, what did you learn? What's been your biggest? What'd you learn from your

00:36:51.66
Aaron
I think just go, go slow and don't be afraid to ask for help from the person that's, they want the product. So this one was like, I think if anything, I'm known for turning things over very quickly.

00:37:05.28
Aaron
I'm done. just Warner's camp. i already gave them the thing. I was just there, like gave them within a day.

00:37:09.37
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

00:37:11.07
Aaron
Hey, here's, here's your stuff. Uh, with this one, it's been weeks, but I'm like, here's my schedule. Uh, I'm not going to be able to get to this next part until then take your time, like going over it.

00:37:22.96
Aaron
But this is important that you do this when you can, and kind of pushing the ball back into their court. has given me time to breathe and like get the stuff done that I need, waiting for their response and taking time to, I think, do this really well.

00:37:38.19
Seth Macey
cool man that's really that's really cool um it's funny just the difference in style here i think like in my instance uh i envision putting these clips in with other footage it's not just like a straight up interview it's the the main main line um

00:37:39.11
Aaron
Yeah.

00:37:58.92
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

00:38:08.92
Seth Macey
So I'm just like, oh, that's a good sound bite. That's all I need. I didn't need anything flawless. Right. And I also, you said, was it Sydney who did it prompted people? Here's what we're going to ask you.

00:38:18.94
Aaron
yeah yeah

00:38:20.05
Seth Macey
i had somebody say, what are the questions? And I said, I'm not telling you.

00:38:28.11
Seth Macey
Just as politely as I could. I said, you're going to say it best the first time.

00:38:32.31
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

00:38:32.75
Seth Macey
You know, there's something to be said for overthinking.

00:38:35.99
Aaron
yeah for sure

00:38:37.16
Seth Macey
but Just in in all aspects of life. You're going to think about how to how to best say this, how you can how you can present yourself as as as the best you can, and you're going to flub it.

00:38:51.49
Seth Macey
Now, you don't say that, but that's often what happens. It's your analogy with golf. Just get up and hit the ball. Often, that mentality through 18 holes is your best round ever. I've done that. My best round ever was that.

00:39:02.62
Seth Macey
Walk up, hit it, whatever.

00:39:04.39
Aaron
Yeah.

00:39:05.10
Seth Macey
As opposed to my feet gotta be perfect. Which way is the wind going? All this stuff that can distract you from the fundamentals, which is just do it. to Do the thing.

00:39:15.74
Seth Macey
be smooth, be slow, be deliberate. Um...

00:39:19.99
Aaron
yeah

00:39:20.84
Seth Macey
And that's something yeah I'm speaking to myself, how often i've I've gotten a lot better, but caught myself overthinking things. It's hey, man, all that this is just noise. You just take go back four steps prior to all this and just do the thing that you you said.

00:39:36.59
Aaron
Right.

00:39:36.72
Seth Macey
Especially with emails. Just ask the question. not not All these conditions don't need to be met before it's okay for you to do to say what you're about to say or ask for what you're about to ask for. Just ask for it. Just do it.

00:39:50.86
Aaron
I agree with that one.

00:39:50.98
Seth Macey
I'm very much right.

00:39:51.82
Aaron
I think we can, yeah, especially emails, we can get really caught up on the word and the flow and the this it's, but really it's probably a simple yes or no. I don't know if you probably don't want to work with the company that's like, huh, they used a comma where they should have used an and like, that's probably not the clientele you want to work with.

00:40:09.90
Seth Macey
Right.

00:40:15.08
Aaron
That's going to be nitpicking your email and your language. Obviously be professional, obviously be polite, obviously don't have huge typos and spelling errors, but you can get to the point.

00:40:26.78
Aaron
You can be casual. You don't have to formulate a poetry. have to be Shakespeare to pitch a brand.

00:40:33.66
Seth Macey
Would be funny, though.

00:40:33.96
Aaron
They're not, they're probably not reading it.

00:40:35.61
Seth Macey
You'd probably get some response if you were Shakespeare.

00:40:38.00
Aaron
Maybe, maybe, or maybe some quick deletes too long.

00:40:42.66
Seth Macey
Maybe. So that was my weekend. My weekend was stressful because it was something I've never done before. Understanding that it was going to be my worst one ever, even if it was good.

00:40:54.17
Aaron
yeah

00:40:54.45
Seth Macey
And finding comfort in that, knowing that reps are what's going to make you better, not theory. And there's no other way, right? The obstacle the way, as we say.

00:41:04.62
Aaron
Yes.

00:41:05.01
Seth Macey
Not as we say, but as we have curated.

00:41:05.33
Aaron
Yes.

00:41:07.71
Seth Macey
Who said that? Marcus Rulli's.

00:41:10.45
Aaron
But yeah, Ryan Holiday has a book called that.

00:41:12.56
Seth Macey
Brian Holiday.

00:41:13.84
Aaron
Yeah.

00:41:14.42
Seth Macey
The obstacle of the way. Yeah. So I felt good about it. I don't know about you, but after doing something that you've been stressing about and it went okay, it's just another...

00:41:26.83
Seth Macey
It's another stack of proof you can add to the list in your mind or whether you keep a digital or physical one.

00:41:32.85
Aaron
Yep.

00:41:34.96
Seth Macey
um

00:41:35.10
Aaron
Yeah. It's something you can use that, you know, anytime you can then market it if you love it. That's the thing where it's like, that was really fun.

00:41:40.67
Seth Macey
Right.

00:41:42.28
Aaron
So I'm going to start marketing this ah showcase this work that I did. Maybe I'll do a practice one to have it absolutely perfect in my mind or like the things I've learned.

00:41:49.34
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

00:41:53.72
Aaron
I want to start doing this more. I have this skill. Or it's just something in your back pocket. Then when someone says like in in our case, you know, Hey, can you do this or this interview? Or do you want to do it in this style?

00:42:07.20
Aaron
Uh, yeah, I can do it. I've done it before. It becomes that much easier. So I think it is, it's definitely, it's definitely cool to put yourself out there and try new things and and push yourself and push yourself to efficiencies and and have fun with it and enjoy like the the learning. I guess that's the, that is the most fun part.

00:42:28.94
Aaron
So I think both of us, we're very similar in that where it's like, if you're learning or trying something new and and doing well at it, that's a really nice feeling.

00:42:40.42
Seth Macey
Yeah, and then, well, first I'll ask you, what do you like about learning?

00:42:46.65
Aaron
I think it's the success that I think it's the early curve. So let's take anything at first. It's really daunting.

00:42:59.08
Aaron
It's really slow and daunting. There's this, there's this push that you have to get through to even get anywhere. Yeah. Maybe we use running. Running is a great example. If you're out of shape and you haven't run in a year and you start to go run a half mile feels absolutely horrible.

00:43:16.01
Seth Macey
Uh-huh.

00:43:18.21
Aaron
Like I do not want to do this. I cannot do this. I can't imagine being able to run too if I am struggling to get to a half mile. And it's hard for a while ah learning video.

00:43:31.64
Aaron
Really? What's the technicalities? I got to remember this math. I give, what's my native ISO? Like you probably have a notebook with all the things that you need to remember to make it look decent.

00:43:43.15
Aaron
And the research that goes into finding out all those things is very slow in the beginning. It's very slow to do it well. But once you learn a couple of those things, then there's this great rise in talent or success or skill where it's like, oh, I'm not just a complete beginner. I know a little bit of things and now I can push Now I have some investment behind it.

00:44:10.11
Aaron
I can push this. It's kind of like compounding interest. Like I can push this and it starts going much, much faster. And now I feel very proficient at the thing that I'm doing. So I, bla wow, last month I could only run half a mile without wheezing to death.

00:44:25.57
Aaron
Now I'm at two miles and I'm running the whole time. Is it my fastest? No, but that's a huge improvement. I would consider myself a runner. Like I'm looking at running shoes and I'm buying them.

00:44:36.51
Aaron
Okay, great, so now we're here. now Now the question is, where I often get stuck and I think the rush kind of falls off is, all right, do you want to put in eight hours a day to become an expert at this?

00:44:51.44
Aaron
Do you want to put in a ton of time to become phenomenal at this?

00:44:55.19
Seth Macey
Fluent.

00:44:56.73
Aaron
Or do you enjoy getting to a B plus or B and being like, by i I got that in my belt.

00:44:57.43
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:45:03.94
Aaron
Like I could do that. And if I had to pick it up again, if in a two years from now, someone's like, I need a double interview. a double camera interview, I'd be like, okay, I did this two years ago. i can get this back quick and get to a point where I'm comfortable again and, and do it versus where do I want to do this for the rest of my life and do it really well every single day and work at it, work at it, work at it, work at it, buy the equipment, all the things to make this as, as good as possible.

00:45:36.20
Seth Macey
Yeah, I was listening to you. i i almost agree and disagree at the same time. i think To word it, I agree that the maybe the getting through the friction from standing still to moving to doing something, that initial phase is very difficult. And then once you're...

00:45:59.21
Seth Macey
your you're kind of moving, things get better. But like I would also, you said it's very difficult in the beginning. I would say you get most of your ten noticeable results come in the beginning of starting something.

00:46:13.97
Seth Macey
And I think you kind of alluded to this at the end. And then as things go along, it's three times the effort to get,

00:46:16.20
Aaron
Yeah.

00:46:21.53
Seth Macey
a third of what you were.

00:46:22.19
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

00:46:24.08
Seth Macey
And that's where people fall. that I think I told you I'm trying to learn a language right now and that's where I'm at. I'm four months in and I'm like, I don't feel like I'm fucking learning anything.

00:46:33.48
Aaron
yeah

00:46:33.46
Seth Macey
Right? Because in the beginning I'm like, oh, I'm getting all these new vocabulary. I'm learning all these things. And now I'm like, I feel like I've been in the same spot for two months. things like

00:46:43.97
Aaron
yeah

00:46:44.44
Seth Macey
Listening to content, I'm still not fully understanding it. And it's like, You have those doubts. Am I doing things right? am i you know am i Is this the the the best format of practice for me to get to where I'm trying to get to? And I think it's understanding that that curve is nastily sloped sometimes in terms of input and output.

00:47:09.67
Aaron
And what would you have to do to really become fluent in that language?

00:47:14.98
Seth Macey
I would have to sacrifice other the things and be, or maybe not, I would just have to continue to be immersed in it over time.

00:47:21.38
Aaron
Yeah, immersed in it, which means like to me, the the natural thing would be but if it's Portuguese, go to Portugal, right?

00:47:23.81
Seth Macey
Over time. Yeah.

00:47:30.83
Aaron
And and be stuck doing it all the time.

00:47:31.04
Seth Macey
Right. Mm-hmm.

00:47:34.44
Aaron
Then you will get better. Then you will become fluent in it as fast as you possibly can. But you're that it still might take a long time, but you're doing it all the time and you have to do it in every situation that you're doing.

00:47:42.33
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

00:47:46.08
Aaron
So it's the same. It's, it was very similar with almost anything like that.

00:47:49.71
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:47:49.81
Aaron
That was my golf journey of like, I worked really hard every single day, chipping and putting and short game and, uh, my swing, uh, in my early thirties and got to a point where i was pretty, pretty good at golf or could be the potential was there.

00:48:05.32
Seth Macey
Like 80s?

00:48:06.69
Aaron
Like,

00:48:06.64
Seth Macey
were you shooting?

00:48:07.92
Aaron
ah my best was like in the seventies, like there was four rounds in a row where I was under par or at par, uh, at that time. And, without practicing now I'm at like, I can shoot from 78 to 82 pretty consistently with an occasional outlier both ways, but that's with like doing no practice.

00:48:24.52
Seth Macey
Right.

00:48:30.81
Aaron
Right.

00:48:30.82
Seth Macey
right

00:48:30.97
Aaron
So to, to continue to get to that point where you're really improving, it's like, i have to quit my job to do this. Like, I would have to. would have to be absolutely committed to doing this every single day for six hours a day to really get to this point of like getting better than where I was.

00:48:53.85
Aaron
And without it, now it's kind of all that work in the beginning to get to a level, a B plus level as a golfer. Now I'm at like a B minus golfer, I'll give myself as a grade, but I'm not doing the work. Like the skill is in my pocket. It's like still here somewhere.

00:49:12.68
Aaron
And I could pick it up if I wanted to. could get into it more and and maybe make marginal improvements. But at this point, it's like, oh, dog's playing with the toy.

00:49:22.95
Seth Macey
Oh, squeaky toy.

00:49:24.20
Aaron
Squeaky toy time. ah At this point, it is one of those things where it's like, and like a lot of things are, is how much do you want to be obsessed with it for the long term? And then what's the return on investment for what you're trying to do?

00:49:39.28
Aaron
And that's okay. I like learning a lot of different things. I like trying new things. I like experimenting with new things. Some things stick, some things don't. Some things stick for a long time.

00:49:50.87
Aaron
Some things don't. And yeah, that's that.

00:49:56.07
Seth Macey
Yeah, I think even the better question is, what are what level are are you satisfied with remaining at forever?

00:50:04.03
Aaron
That is a good question.

00:50:06.31
Seth Macey
When starting something.

00:50:11.03
Seth Macey
To use your, to use, to to juxtapose language and golf against each other, you could say that you might not be a native speaker in golf, but you're somewhat fluent.

00:50:24.71
Seth Macey
Right. Or like I may never become it's unlikely I will never be native level in the language I'm trying to learn.

00:50:25.46
Aaron
Yeah.

00:50:32.30
Seth Macey
But am I happy being able to express myself at a and like a B2 level? Which is what many consider fluent. Like what is what is satisfying to you? Mastery or I'm pretty good at this.

00:50:47.17
Aaron
Pretty good.

00:50:48.57
Seth Macey
And that's going to be different for everyone. I think that ties a lot into the ego.

00:50:50.40
Aaron
Yeah.

00:50:52.86
Seth Macey
And I think there can be, I've struggled with this at times, there's a disconnect between...

00:50:53.17
Aaron
Yeah.

00:50:59.54
Seth Macey
the The time required and and the level of mastery. like i want if you want to do It's just math. If you want to do so many different things, it's impossible for you to be good at all of them. You're going to be maybe above average at all of them.

00:51:15.82
Seth Macey
If you want to dim that list down to like two things, maybe mastery is... within reach, but you're going to have to sacrifice other things.

00:51:28.31
Seth Macey
Um, so that's a question I asked myself a lot now recently is what level are you okay at remaining forever with photography, with podcasting?

00:51:36.28
Aaron
Yeah.

00:51:38.94
Seth Macey
Cause just infinite growth in all areas and all of our interests is ridiculous. It's impossible.

00:51:46.10
Aaron
Yeah. And I mean, i don't know if they've disputed the 10,000 hour rule. I'm not sure if that's still a thing, but ah if I've done this math before and I just pulled it up, if you spent eight hours a day, every single day of the year doing your craft to become mastery level,

00:52:08.70
Aaron
Uh, it still 10,000 hours is 3.4 years of every single day at eight hours a day. That's a lot of time. So that's where you have like the tiger woods of the world that started golf 3.4 years straight.

00:52:21.48
Seth Macey
What was it? 3.5? Okay, just before you say that, if you have 10 interests that you'd like to master with 10,000 hours, that's 35 years of your life.

00:52:31.95
Aaron
Yeah.

00:52:34.68
Aaron
so of of devoted time right like eight hours a day so that math probably doesn't work for most people i would imagine so when you hear about like these prodigies they they just tiger woods was on the it was the johnny carson show at like two years old hitting great shots like it was just

00:52:38.05
Seth Macey
Yeah. Yeah.

00:52:43.15
Seth Macey
Right.

00:52:53.77
Seth Macey
Yeah. But not doing much else. Like golf, that's it.

00:52:57.20
Aaron
Yeah, that was that was it.

00:52:59.00
Seth Macey
That's it.

00:52:59.15
Aaron
And does that make you a well rounded person? Does that make you someone enjoyable to be around? Does that make you? so I don't know.

00:53:05.98
Seth Macey
Does that make you somebody that you're satisfied with?

00:53:08.80
Aaron
I don't know. i don't know. But I do know that I guess there's a reality to that equation of people want to be great at things.

00:53:20.46
Aaron
but I think don't necessarily tie into how much time will this actually take for me to be great at this?

00:53:27.42
Seth Macey
Right.

00:53:28.38
Aaron
And am I doing it?

00:53:28.90
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:53:29.85
Aaron
When I used to teach golf, it was, that was the most frustrating thing when people were comparing themselves to par. Oh, I shot 20 over par. its It was like, how many times did you practice this week? Oh, I don't practice much.

00:53:41.97
Aaron
I play like once a week with my friends, but I feel like I should be able to do it because you can do it every once in a while. You can hit a great shot and you feel like I should be able to do this over and over and over and over.

00:53:52.80
Aaron
But it's like, oh you we're not getting it. We're not getting the fundamental thing about scaffolding and learning. We're not getting the fundamental thing. thought process of this takes repetitions that nothing but time and repetitions can do and it's the same with photography it's the same with wildlife like you have to be out there a ton to get the photos that you want to get there's no just mailing it in

00:54:11.21
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:54:19.73
Seth Macey
Yeah. Learning to learn is often the most difficult thing because it comes with all that that you just mentioned.

00:54:25.75
Aaron
yeah

00:54:30.65
Seth Macey
Getting rid of the, I deserve to be at this level.

00:54:36.44
Seth Macey
Formulating what process is most efficient for you as an individual. i mean, that's that's what I've been spending a lot of my time recently is learning how to best learn, if that makes any sense.

00:54:52.10
Aaron
does. I think that's the part that a lot of us skip or are maybe not skip, but aren't realistic with create expectations for yourself and get frustrated with yourself without the time behind it.

00:54:56.47
Seth Macey
Right.

00:55:00.10
Seth Macey
Right.

00:55:07.15
Aaron
Now, if I spend 10,000 hours trying to learn piano now, classical piano, I spent eight hours a day for three years. And I came back to the show in three and a half years, having done that for eight hours a day.

00:55:21.88
Aaron
and I sucked, then I could be pissed. Then I could be annoyed. Then I could be like, wow, I, I, I failed. Like I just am bad at this, but I would like, if you really think about that timeframe, eight hours a day doing the thing would take you three and a half years, seven days a week,

00:55:33.53
Seth Macey
Right.

00:55:43.77
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

00:55:46.44
Aaron
you You could probably list anything out there that youre anyone's thinking of and be like, I'd be pretty damn good at that if I did that.

00:55:54.13
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:55:55.34
Aaron
Anything.

00:55:57.11
Seth Macey
Yeah, I think where people get lost to is it's very rare to find something that you're willing to do that for. A lot of people will go their whole life and not find that thing.

00:56:04.89
Aaron
ah ah Yeah, of course. That's a lot of commitment. That's a lot of commitment.

00:56:09.81
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:56:10.92
Aaron
I think being...

00:56:11.02
Seth Macey
So if you kind of like photography, like this is fun, then... you know, the 10,000 hours doesn't make sense. I kind of like photography. Like I'm good at it. I enjoy it.

00:56:24.14
Seth Macey
It's like an eight out of 10. Is it a 10? No.

00:56:27.79
Aaron
Oh yeah.

00:56:27.93
Seth Macey
I have a lot of different eights, which...

00:56:30.28
Aaron
And you're not getting mad at yourself. I think that's the problem. Getting mad at yourself. If you were calling me every day, being pissed off that you're not getting six figure gigs and five figure gigs left and right.

00:56:43.39
Aaron
I'd be like, okay, well, how many, how many hours did you work today pitching and creating your, your propositions, your, your pitches, your website, your craft?

00:56:58.66
Aaron
ah Can you, do you know your camera inside and out? Like all of those things. I think it's when you you have these expectations that are like unrealistic based on the fact that you've put in maybe eight hours a week and feel like that's a ton.

00:57:17.91
Seth Macey
When it's not.

00:57:19.49
Aaron
When it's not compared to the person that really wants it.

00:57:21.60
Seth Macey
Right. Right.

00:57:23.96
Aaron
And that is getting those things and the work that they've done beforehand, the last 10 years to get there.

00:57:30.91
Seth Macey
Right, and then you fall into this fallacy where people think I want, they think that they want photography, but if you did, you would be doing the thing. And that goes for anything. Like, almost just stop at that point.

00:57:44.19
Seth Macey
If it's bringing you frustration, you feel like it's a chore and you have to do it. and I've run into, I've had conversations with people like this where it's, I have to, doing a 365-day reel thing, I have to post.

00:57:49.01
Aaron
Yeah.

00:57:56.57
Seth Macey
do you? Sounds like a drag. Like go do something else that's going to make you excited. Why, like, why do you feel like you have to do this?

00:58:05.87
Aaron
Yeah.

00:58:06.42
Seth Macey
You don't, you always have a choice, right?

00:58:10.02
Aaron
Yeah, it's just ah it's just aligning your realities. It's aligning your expectations, what you want to be doing, and doing that.

00:58:20.49
Aaron
or not doing that if you don't want to be it's just aligning those two things don't be doing something necessarily that you don't really love especially we're talking passion stuff like you know i'm gonna love waking up early and taking my dog for a walk but it's something i'm gonna do uh

00:58:39.56
Seth Macey
Yeah, it's just there's a Scott Galloway quote that I love. There's things you have to do, like paying your mortgage. There's things you want to do.

00:58:51.97
Seth Macey
And there's things you should do. And I think his part of his thing is when he speaks on this is how can I get to a place where I eliminate the shoulds?

00:59:03.97
Aaron
Yeah.

00:59:06.29
Aaron
That's a good one.

00:59:06.28
Seth Macey
where I'm doing what I have to do to live and I'm doing what I want to do. And I'm not feeling like I should do this. I should do that. Shouldn't do this. Shouldn't do that.

00:59:14.49
Aaron
Yeah.

00:59:14.69
Seth Macey
Cause then you're not really on your terms.

00:59:16.94
Aaron
Yeah, that's true.

00:59:19.52
Seth Macey
Well, I've enjoyed talking to you.

00:59:19.73
Aaron
That's good one. Nice one, man. Yeah, you too.

00:59:22.16
Seth Macey
Enjoyed hearing about your weekend.

00:59:22.87
Aaron
This was fun one.

00:59:23.36
Seth Macey
I'm glad it went well. I'm glad that you put together an experience for Warner's camp. It's cool to hear that you also did a two camera video interview. That's neat.

00:59:31.28
Aaron
Yeah, it was fun.

00:59:31.44
Seth Macey
And, um, if you like,

00:59:32.63
Aaron
I'm excited to see your work.

00:59:34.42
Seth Macey
Yeah, I mean, right now it's just archived, which was interesting. I don't have to create anything out of it.

00:59:39.22
Aaron
Oh.

00:59:39.33
Seth Macey
It's just there was an event. Can we do these interviews? We want it for later. So it's stored away.

00:59:43.75
Aaron
Cool.

00:59:44.91
Seth Macey
um And if it makes sense if it makes sense to be incorporated into a video, so be it.

00:59:45.77
Aaron
Those are nice.

00:59:51.02
Seth Macey
So kind of interesting. Just interesting how we have to two totally different, the same kind of thing, same project, but just two totally different directions with that. It's interesting to me.

00:59:58.74
Aaron
Yeah, yeah.

01:00:00.66
Seth Macey
um If you like these episodes, feel free to leave a rating review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify or leave a pay PayPal donation equal to the value you receive from these episodes. You can also subscribe to the show on YouTube.

01:00:11.84
Seth Macey
Until next time, my friend. I think we're back with the guests next week.

01:00:13.53
Aaron
Take care. Love it.

01:00:16.26
Seth Macey
Cool.

01:00:17.13
Aaron
Bye.