How Far Should Creators Go for Clients?

In this episode, we dive into the challenges of balancing creativity and client demands. Are you just the photographer or videographer, or are you also the content/brand strategist and consultant? We share stories about navigating feedback, setting boundaries, and detaching emotionally from your work. If you’ve ever struggled with misrepresented content, unclear roles, or finding validation in your craft, this episode offers relatable insights and practical tips to help you thrive.

Expect to Learn:

• How to set clear expectations with clients to avoid overextending yourself
• The importance of having clear conversations with clients about roles, responsibilities, and deliverables
• How to emotionally detach from your work while giving high-quality results
• How to overcome imposter syndrome as a creative professional
• How to approach situations where your work is misrepresented after delivery

Sponsors:

Thanks to Tamron for sponsoring this episode! Tamron just released the new 16-30mm F/2.8 G2 lens for Sony E-Mount and Nikon Z Mirrorless cameras. If you're looking to add a lightweight and sharp focused wide angle lens to your kit, this should be number one on your list! Seth has this exact lens in his kit and has great things to say about it! You can visit www.tamron-americas.com or your local Tamron dealer today to check it out!

Thanks also to the National Park Foundation for sponsoring today’s episode. Enter the Share the Experience photo contest for a chance to win $10,000 and prizes from Celestron, Historic Hotels of America, and YETI. The grand prize winner’s photo could be featured on the America the Beautiful—the National Parks and Federal Recreational Lands Annual Pass.

 Submit your best shots now at sharetheexperience.org/tpm

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Thanks for listening!
Go get shooting, go get editing, and stay focused.

@sethmacey
@mantis_photography
@thephotographermindset

Transcript

00:54.07
Seth Macey
Right on. um So yeah, man, we were talking before we pressed record. Are we photographers only? Are we art directors and photographers? Are we the creative consultants? Are we the people driving to our client's house to take their phone and post it properly when we hand over content? Like, what are we? Where do our roles stop?

01:14.22
Seth Macey
where Where are the guardrails?

01:15.19
Aaron
yeah

01:15.82
Seth Macey
Because I think we can, I think this kind of an important discussion we've ever had, like defining what our roles are when we're creating content for other entities.

01:29.03
Seth Macey
Where do we stop offering guidance? and where do we and And that blends in with wanting to have your content best represented, wanting to do a good job, wanting to provide show more value by helping maybe somebody or a group of people at ah a business or a firm that don't really know what they're doing to the extent that you might.

01:52.63
Seth Macey
But I think this conversation is worthwhile. like what are What are our roles and how strict are we with that? Because you've been getting frustrated. You talked, or maybe not multiple times, but at least in one instance recently where you felt like your content wasn't best represented

02:11.58
Aaron
Yeah, well, we got home from Alaska. That's a lot of shooting. ah And I ah jumped right back into some client work and and doing some things. And think think this is a good conversation. I think some of this has stemmed from just little things. They're they're not huge things in the in the scope of business.

02:35.69
Aaron
everyday life, but they are these little things that you just wonder like, what's your responsibility and what's your role in, in managing some of this stuff, uh, to give, to give a, and an example is like, there was a, there was a reel I spent a ah good amount of time on, uh, was, you know, maybe not sometimes videos work and they're like really musical and,

03:01.91
Aaron
they make a lot of sense and it's just, it really flows. And then sometimes it's a little bit clunky. I feel like, do you do agree? Like editing video, sometimes it really works.

03:09.36
Seth Macey
Sure.

03:10.47
Aaron
Sometimes it's like, ah, yeah, sometimes it's like, I'm, I feel like I'm forcing it or I'm not sure.

03:10.46
Seth Macey
Sometimes things are snappy and some, yeah, yeah.

03:16.62
Aaron
Or like, I want all these clips in here cause they're important to tell the story, but now it's making it long, whatever. So ah put it in a lot of time to,

03:22.17
Seth Macey
Right.

03:26.30
Aaron
get this done, get some, I got, I got edit suggestions from the key people at the company, which sure. Great. I can, I can adjust those, but every edit on, uh, something that's synced up with music and video can take a long time.

03:41.51
Aaron
Um, so doing all that, my dog's going crazy.

03:45.75
Seth Macey
That's okay. He'll settle down. Hey, simmer down there, Cap.

03:48.11
Aaron
Summer down, bud. Go away. Any who love you. ah

03:57.00
Seth Macey
He's fine. Power on.

03:58.57
Aaron
Don't talk back. ah So you, you see it posted and you're like, oh, cool. They posted the thing that you worked so hard on. Great. And then you see like the, ah the thumbnail is like a blank screen in the middle of a transition through the thing.

04:16.23
Aaron
And, And by the thumbnail, I mean like the cover photo that you can do on a reel. Now, again, not a huge deal, but in the scheme of their profile, in the scheme of like how it all looks, when you see the cover photo being like the middle of a transition, like this blurry sort of greenish white blur, you go like, well, I gave a whole folder of 16 nine

04:36.80
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

04:44.33
Aaron
well edited photos, ah like, okay, was this on purpose? Like, is this, did you like that thumbnail? yeah Who's in charge here? Do you not know that you can change the cover photo? Do you not, like, where's it my role to be like, ah, this could present just the littlest bit better.

05:04.60
Aaron
Now, does the cover photo change viewership on a reel? maybe a minuscule amount if someone's in a profile and clicks on a an attractive photo versus ah blur of green which they don't know anything of like what that is so maybe maybe that works maybe it's on purpose so

05:21.12
Seth Macey
Maybe that works. Maybe that works. Yeah. Maybe it's on purpose. hey I mean, I brought up my, I wrote down notes as you were talking and you said, um, they asked for edits, right?

05:34.51
Seth Macey
And this, this, this question stems kind of into. this particular thumbnail selection is who's to say what looks good. I mean, are there rules for what is good? like who knows better in this instance?

05:52.33
Seth Macey
ah

05:52.51
Aaron
Right.

05:53.95
Seth Macey
In the example of the edits, they're saying, can you edit it this way? Are they always, is the customer always right? I say no, but when do you do it their way?

06:04.34
Aaron
No, not always. In this case, yeah, yeah.

06:07.33
Seth Macey
You know?

06:08.78
Aaron
So also I'll spell this out a little bit. I did... um

06:14.88
Aaron
After getting all my video footage of this evening, there was an event of this evening. Two concepts hit me and I liked both of them. So I had concept a and concept B. I sent them both. I was like, here's two different looks. I like them both.

06:32.19
Aaron
And what I thought might happen did happen.

06:35.79
Seth Macey
Can I guess?

06:36.19
Aaron
Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

06:36.51
Seth Macey
Can I guess? Can I guess? Can I guess? Can you combine this from A and that in B? Yeah, the worst, dude.

06:41.98
Aaron
Yeah. Which is, which was fine. Like it it was.

06:45.35
Seth Macey
That's the downside of sending two options though, man.

06:47.85
Aaron
Yeah, for sure.

06:47.99
Seth Macey
Like you have to, at least you, you said you knew that that might be a possibility. You're like, I was afraid this might happen, which is, it's not like a big deal, but it's more editing time.

06:53.76
Aaron
Yeah. And

06:56.30
Seth Macey
And like you said, at the start of our conversation, sometimes it just doesn't make sense for the story. Like people might think, oh yeah, you can just blip, blip, blip, plop, plop A and B in this section or that section and it'll make sense.

07:01.03
Aaron
yeah.

07:06.41
Seth Macey
It's the same as when people say, oh, trim this two-minute video down to 20 seconds for a real, this long-form.

07:06.48
Aaron
Yeah.

07:11.80
Seth Macey
Like, it just doesn't translate often.

07:14.26
Aaron
Right. This one, this one was a fine suggestion. It was like one cool scene opening scene from a that wanted to be the opening scene for B and then the rest remain the same.

07:25.27
Aaron
Now I didn't murder them.

07:25.23
Seth Macey
ah so you didn't murder them. there

07:27.85
Aaron
No at all.

07:27.91
Seth Macey
Yes.

07:28.53
Aaron
I was, I was fine with it.

07:28.93
Seth Macey
Nothing worse than just the most ridiculous notes for revisions.

07:33.39
Aaron
Yeah.

07:35.99
Aaron
yeah and And I've gotten so much better at this ah emotionally. Like my own ego is when you hand stuff and they come back with like a suggestion. And I understand now that people are busy.

07:48.10
Aaron
They're just doing their thing. They like your work because they're hiring you over and over and over. Like that's not in question. Uh, but when you hand something over and you've spent hours doing it and no one says like, oh, this is really cool.

08:01.39
Aaron
Like no one says anything of like, Hey, wow. Two options.

08:05.35
Seth Macey
Yeah.

08:05.94
Aaron
That's awesome. Thanks for putting in. Not that again, I don't need, and don't need all of that anymore, especially I did, but it's still, it still gets me.

08:14.04
Seth Macey
Yeah. The Stoics would say you don't need it.

08:16.79
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. It still gets me a little bit when it goes like straight to, um, I don't know. It's like purchasing someone a gift.

08:27.44
Aaron
and And instead of saying thank you, they're like, um I'm not crazy about this color.

08:28.52
Seth Macey
They just take it.

08:31.85
Aaron
And you're like, okay.

08:33.98
Seth Macey
Or they say nothing or just great.

08:36.04
Aaron
Yeah. So ah great would be nice.

08:37.07
Seth Macey
Yeah. yeah i mean, you know what?

08:38.62
Aaron
So.

08:38.97
Seth Macey
though You've had great introspection about this. Like you've been very good. I feel like you bring this up a lot, which is not a criticism of you, but this is clearly an indication of you working through something.

08:45.52
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

08:51.96
Seth Macey
When people bring up things repeatedly, either to themselves or friends or something, they're, they're, they're working through something or or, trying to improve on something or making a habit of noticing something.

09:03.07
Seth Macey
So I mean, when you've routinely named this, it bothers me when and this example, uh, I, I'm not recognized to the full extent that I would like to be from my work.

09:08.01
Aaron
Yeah.

09:12.56
Seth Macey
Like you're working through that over a period of time, which is, which is, i think useful to, uh, I guess, let listeners know of. Because when you name it like that and you're aware of it, that's the first steps to, I guess, making changes that are lasting.

09:29.66
Aaron
Yeah, it's reflecting notice. There's a great quote. I think it's Peter, Peter Crone. I'm a big fan of just a good amount of his philosophies.

09:39.96
Aaron
But I think when you're when you're triggered by something, it's a great opportunity to ask why and and kind of dig deeper there ah versus just go down the triggered a path.

09:50.47
Seth Macey
yeah Yeah, being triggered is being triggered is a light.

09:51.26
Aaron
I think a big part of it in reflection is that I have a stress. I have a I edit, I do all this time. I'm, I like it, but I do have a stress of like pressing the send button and

10:07.94
Aaron
having it well received or.

10:14.04
Seth Macey
Excuse me, being triggered. Being triggered is life highlighting your insecurities.

10:19.15
Aaron
Yeah.

10:20.18
Seth Macey
As one he said, which is interesting.

10:24.00
Aaron
Yeah.

10:24.77
Seth Macey
So maybe it maybe it conjures up like these weird, deep, dark things of like, yeah, what is it there?

10:29.16
Aaron
Well, no, I think what I'm saying, my insecurity is,

10:33.84
Seth Macey
I'm not good enough.

10:34.20
Aaron
it

10:34.56
Seth Macey
My work's not good enough. My work's a reflection of me, so I'm not good enough.

10:37.14
Aaron
i ah yeah I'm nervous that you're not going to like this ah in simple form. I'm nervous you're not going to like this. And to to quell that fear would be, oh my God, I love this.

10:50.80
Seth Macey
Yeah, and the interesting thing is that if you were completely detached from the work, that wouldn't matter because it's not you. there's to To whatever extent, whether the work feels like it's 4% of you or 100% an extension of you, it's you.

11:07.75
Seth Macey
So when someone doesn't like the work, there's the feeling of they don't like me.

11:13.36
Aaron
Yeah. And what I've had to get through is say like, ah they just might not be great with their words or it's not their responsibility to help my insecurity.

11:27.48
Aaron
It's my responsibility to notice my insecurity and go forward them hiring multiple times. I've had, i think five events with them this summer. So that might be the most repeat work I've had with any client five in a row that quickly to me, I have to go, that's the, thank you.

11:42.99
Seth Macey
Yeah.

11:47.28
Aaron
That's the, I love what you're doing. That's the, we want to keep paying you and hiring you to do what you're doing. And that's enough. The,

11:54.98
Seth Macey
That's a good place to return to, especially when you're your mind's in the weeds.

11:59.27
Aaron
Yeah. And the, the artist in me, the human in me wants the, not only the financial payment, but the, the emotional payment of being like,

12:14.25
Aaron
We all just want to rec, I think we all want to be recognized for the effort and the work.

12:22.98
Seth Macey
Yeah.

12:23.37
Aaron
There's, there's another example where i don't remember the client, but it was, I was paid for photo work and I felt like I nailed, like I had so many photos of this, um,

12:35.15
Aaron
Event or property. i don't remember I'm fogging on what it was but I was paid for photo work and I had time and I flew my drone and got a drone video and put in a whole nother video thing extra and The feedback came back from the whole package on like could you do this with the video video video video? video And I kind of was like What the like I wasn't paid for that

12:59.73
Seth Macey
Right. Sure.

13:01.58
Aaron
No, like that's, that's extra. And the fact that you're not being like, oh my, you did video also.

13:04.07
Seth Macey
sure

13:06.99
Aaron
Thank you. Like I'm annoyed now. So I think the recognition of like, oh, you went above and beyond. Like that was a cool clip that you added in. How did you do like, it's.

13:18.90
Seth Macey
That seems to be where you get stuck up. It's when you particularly go above and beyond. That's when you want the artist recognition.

13:23.44
Aaron
Yeah.

13:25.98
Seth Macey
But here's another way to maybe flip this and invert this and maybe make you feel a bit better about this and maybe people listening is that imagine you and I played like 18 holes a day of golf, which you very exceptional.

13:26.47
Aaron
Mm hmm.

13:39.90
Seth Macey
and I've never seen you play, but I'll trust you. You're actually just like terrible. You can't even hit the ball. Yeah.

13:44.33
Aaron
I can be terrible. That's golf.

13:46.75
Seth Macey
Okay, but let's let's assume that you're you're scratch golf, okay?

13:50.04
Aaron
Yeah, I'm not, but let's go on.

13:50.30
Seth Macey
or for Let's assume you are for every 18 holes, which is phenomenal.

13:52.24
Aaron
Yeah.

13:55.09
Seth Macey
And after every drive you hit, I go, wow, man, that's incredible. You're so good. At what point are you just like, dude, stop kissing butt.

14:07.51
Seth Macey
Like, i like i'm I'm good. I know I'm good. Where I'm going with this is maybe there's the potential for when person or a business hires a professional like yourself for visuals they're like this guy is awesome he doesn't need to be told this

14:26.39
Aaron
Yeah, thank you. Ian, listen.

14:29.84
Seth Macey
so almost and just to continue so almost in a sense if it's like oh Aaron these are so good maybe that obviously that empty that's a bit hyperbole right

14:31.95
Aaron
Go. Go.

14:43.32
Seth Macey
Maybe that demonstrates that they think you're an amateur person. Now, this isn't black or white. I understand that. You can be a professional, deliver incredible work, and have someone say, these are really great. Of course.

14:58.77
Seth Macey
I'm just saying, and maybe you can even lie to yourself in this instance, is that they're not saying anything because they just know I'm a pro. I showed up and I did my work well. They don't need to to so tell me I did an excellent job. like If you have a drywaller come to your house, you may drop a comment like, oh, good job, but you're not going to go Google Gaga over and tape job.

15:18.14
Seth Macey
mud and tape job

15:19.90
Aaron
Yeah, totally.

15:19.96
Seth Macey
right A pro showed up, did it, you paid him. that is the That is the attaboy or attagirl.

15:26.64
Aaron
Yeah, ah totally. and I think that's, that is a good thought. And that's where I get back to. um These are the, these are these things that you like, you want, you want someone to gush over it because maybe there is an unsure, maybe it comes more with Maybe it comes more with a project or video or photos where you're like, I don't know if I, I don't know if I nailed it.

15:50.70
Aaron
ah Some reassurance that people like it and this is what they want is good. i don't, I don't.

15:57.18
Seth Macey
How often do you nail it? How often you know you've nailed it in your head? And then follow up question to that, how often is that confirmed? Because sometimes we think we've nailed it and we have not.

16:06.31
Aaron
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Four out of five, just roughly saying.

16:10.48
Seth Macey
Four out of five times you think you've nailed what you've handed in?

16:14.19
Aaron
Yeah, I feel ah feel confident 80% of the time.

16:14.87
Seth Macey
Okay, so 80%. And then of that of that, what percentage is confirmed on the other end?

16:22.57
Aaron
Half, it depends on the depends on the client, I think, but half, let's say.

16:25.88
Seth Macey
Interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

16:28.32
Aaron
um So

16:32.48
Aaron
I think where're where I was going with this is like when you're Yeah, it it brings in like you've you've insecurities about your work potentially and can they be can they be quelled?

16:44.70
Aaron
I don't, I kind of believe and I offer this a lot, like especially to get a gig if it's a new client, like satisfaction guaranteed. i don't want you paying me if you're and like you're not happy with the work and you're not going to use it.

16:54.35
Seth Macey
yeah

17:01.33
Aaron
Like that feels crummy and we can we can put this in the contract somehow where it's like,

17:01.41
Seth Macey
Sure.

17:06.11
Seth Macey
You have to use it.

17:06.30
Aaron
All right. Yeah, you you missed the mark. And... for whatever reason, where, where did the communication break down or what happened? But that's, um, we can take those losses sometimes. Sometimes it helps you to get jobs and then helps you to prove yourself and do a good job.

17:25.59
Aaron
Uh, but so I think the insecurities in, in maybe handing something in and maybe it comes with, uh, not as much photos as video, because that's not gonna, that's not my bread and butter of like, I'm not,

17:33.08
Seth Macey
I was just going to ask.

17:38.51
Aaron
you see some amazing video at content and edits and ideas on Instagram daily and you try to compete and you're like, I'm just, look listen, this is not necessarily my thing.

17:52.80
Aaron
I feel like I can do it, but in terms of creating shots and and putting it all together and adding music and adding a narrative and adding a timeline, it's a little clunky.

18:05.31
Aaron
like getting through it. It takes a lot of time. So the more time, the more perceived effort, the more perceived that I know for all they know, I threw a bunch of clips into a program and it spit out this video.

18:17.97
Aaron
Right. And like, there's more, I don't know how much work it takes, like whatever. It seems cool. Good job. Uh, and to your point of the golf analogy, I do agree.

18:30.23
Aaron
I don't need, I don't need gushing all the time. I don't need long things. Um,

18:37.76
Aaron
i don't I don't need it at all. Like this this client is not that, he's not a warm, emotional, you know fluff my ego sort of guy. He's bare bones right to the point.

18:51.48
Aaron
um Tells me what he wants and that's that. And I accept it and I keep coming back and we keep working together and we have a good relationship and that's that. I think it what would it would just quell.

19:03.12
Aaron
It would just soothe the littlest bit of like, Instead of me saying, like, do you like that like do you do you even like the stuff?

19:11.86
Seth Macey
Right.

19:12.07
Aaron
Like, I just want to know, like, do you? I can assume. I can assume you do because you continue to have me there. But it would just be like, hey, man, this is awesome. We appreciate your work. And to be honest, along the way, he has done that.

19:25.38
Aaron
ah This was just sort of an aside where it's like you put in all this stuff and you hand it in and it comes back with an edit and you're like, okay.

19:33.98
Seth Macey
Yeah, so I mean, here's the here's the, I guess, overarching analysis is, yeah because I was going to ask, do you feel this way for every medium or type of asset that you hand in? And you said, i don't really feel this way for photos. And that's because you have so much experience and confidence in stills, in photography.

19:52.72
Seth Macey
You're talking about an area, video, video editing, color grading, photography. telling a story where you're not you don't have that same level of confidence despite having done it for a year and a half, two years. right It's just not quite there yet.

20:08.83
Seth Macey
You mentioned that in referencing my particular golf analogy, yeah, you'd be annoyed if I told you you did a good shot every single hole because you have...

20:20.50
Seth Macey
you have undeniable or just undisputable confidence that you are good at the game of golf, right?

20:29.27
Aaron
Yeah.

20:29.31
Seth Macey
There's, there's no doubt. There's still, I feel like for you and what you've described in in our weekly discussions is, That feedback, that positive feedback is part of your process in building confidence for a skill that you're still working on. I mean, of course, we're always working on skills, but I feel like you hit, you plural, everybody hit a threshold where, or you pass a threshold where there's this underlying confidence now for any project you hand in.

21:07.74
Seth Macey
Right, and maybe you're not quite there yet.

21:08.02
Aaron
Yeah, that's that's interesting. interesting Also, I recognize back to your back to your golf analogy too. If we were to play together and there's that disparity of like you're a beginner and I'm really good, and I might – I might hit a straight drive that goes decently far, but I hit it off the the heel a little bit or off the bottom of the club and there's a bit too much spin.

21:32.89
Seth Macey
Right.

21:33.14
Aaron
And I know that by feel and it went straight. It looks far, but it went 260 instead of 280. And you're like, dude, you crushed that. And in my head, I'm like, no, I didn't.

21:43.02
Seth Macey
Yeah, you don't know my full potential.

21:43.28
Aaron
No, I didn't. Yeah, and and so that that gets like, like it's like i don't i don't and I don't trust, but I wouldn't trust your judgment, maybe.

21:52.41
Seth Macey
That's all about you and what, yeah, that's what you can do.

21:58.23
Seth Macey
Well, because clearly in that instance, I've demonstrated that I don't have the same level of expertise as you do, which that that provides you insight that maybe all feedback I offer for the rest of the round of golf is kind of not useful.

22:03.70
Aaron
Yeah.

22:14.06
Aaron
Yeah.

22:15.00
Seth Macey
Because i i don't know what I'm talking about.

22:18.33
Aaron
Also, there's an aspect and I think I can get better at this is like, there's a, there's a game here and you and I are similar.

22:18.59
Seth Macey
How do I?

22:26.01
Aaron
i think in the sense of editing photos for ourselves and our stylistic approach and like what we like and,

22:39.37
Aaron
that might not be what the social media world likes. And we can tell that's shifted over the last five years in terms of what gets likes attention, eyes on all that stuff.

22:51.11
Aaron
And that's, that's all fine. Especially with video. I think video we've approached in somewhat of the same way. We're not going, we don't go into a video like your, your camp video, your camp boys, video boys, camp video, um

23:04.41
Seth Macey
Yeah.

23:05.52
Aaron
ah was cinematic showed a lot of scenes went longer than eight seconds the average view rate of maybe it's four seconds of a reel like you can play those games where you're like right the average view is eight seconds I want people to watch a hundred percent of this video so I'm gonna make a six second reel that tries to slam in all these things and have it perform that's a very different edit than like I want to capture the essence of this night and

23:15.33
Seth Macey
yeah

23:30.39
Seth Macey
yeah

23:35.25
Seth Macey
What is perform though? Right? Like what is perform?

23:37.69
Aaron
Perform on socials.

23:40.47
Seth Macey
i'm I'm asking that question, not expecting you to have an answer because it, where I'm going with this is you have to define what the metric for performance is. In that instance, my first thought was, okay, who am I making this for? Am I making this for potentially new,

23:56.31
Seth Macey
ah parents who want to send their camp kids to camp who never have before and generate them business? Is this for you know legacy followers who want to see what their kids are up to? Is it a mixture of both? like Those thoughts go through my head.

24:07.60
Seth Macey
I don't think I ever once thought about, ah nor do I ever really think about short form video length. It may be an afterthought, but in the sense of, oh, I could trim this down a little bit. It's a little long, but I would, I feel like I would make that play call regardless of whether for a four second reel or six second reel does well on social media.

24:29.17
Seth Macey
It's does this tell the story in a way that makes sense? That's free of noise and is how much signal can I get across?

24:34.34
Aaron
yeah Yeah, exactly.

24:35.53
Seth Macey
And what is that? What is that signal? What is it trying to achieve? And however long it takes is however long it takes, right? To do that.

24:43.79
Aaron
But that doesn't always, that won't always perform in the sense of social media and in the sense of clients looking at things, I think,

24:49.26
Seth Macey
Sure. Right.

24:55.14
Aaron
Not all, but some might be blinded by this was, oh, this was really good quality. we were excited to put it, but it only got ah thousand looks and that's disappointing.

25:05.73
Seth Macey
right

25:08.17
Aaron
So it, so it wasn't good.

25:08.31
Seth Macey
So this this this leads into ah yeah well this leads into our conversation of, okay, well, i'm i'm not your i'm not necessary am I your art director? Am I your social media manager?

25:19.44
Seth Macey
like am i your Am I your content strategist as well?

25:19.61
Aaron
Right.

25:22.32
Seth Macey
Or am I just the person who films? Am I just the person who hands you content? Those are important discussions to have. Maybe not that direct, but...

25:30.26
Aaron
Yeah.

25:30.70
Seth Macey
But there's there's these weird faded lines where people hire a photographer and they don't really know, and often the creative doesn't know, what services they're filling.

25:43.21
Seth Macey
you know They're expecting you to... to have insight into how this is going to perform and say, I don't know your demographics. I don't know. um

25:51.35
Aaron
yeah

25:52.32
Seth Macey
is your audience mostly female? I don't i don't know this stuff. I know this stuff if I ask about it and I head more into a content strategy role. But if you really want to bare bones, break it down.

26:04.34
Seth Macey
If you are the videographer or the photographer, you're handing in edited content.

26:10.16
Aaron
Yeah.

26:10.20
Seth Macey
Here you go.

26:10.40
Aaron
Your job is to capture this event.

26:11.24
Seth Macey
Here you go. Done. Here you go. Have that discussion about how how involved do you want me to be?

26:14.47
Aaron
Yeah.

26:17.28
Seth Macey
And then you can you can bake that into your price or you can charge you can literally list that as a line item. But I think this these are conversations that I think many people getting into the ah creative field commercially in in terms of photography and videography aren't asking.

26:36.92
Seth Macey
like I ask that, how involved do you want me to be? Very little.

26:43.40
Aaron
Yeah, I think it's a, um it's a, it is blurred lines. It is slippery in the fact that you can, you can end up doing a lot more than you're contracted for. You can also allocate yourself to being stuck on the sidelines, kind of watching someone take your work and just like,

27:09.65
Aaron
like mess it up.

27:10.03
Seth Macey
Yeah.

27:11.66
Aaron
And then you're like, it's hard to just be like, oh that wasn't my job. I, my job was done well, because that's the reflection that becomes the reflection that everyone sees.

27:23.48
Aaron
And if they post your name or tag your name, then it's like, a dude, like that's,

27:26.03
Seth Macey
Right.

27:29.92
Aaron
I didn't pick that song. That song's awful. I did a, I did a song with the video that matches and then you pick a different song and just play on top of it.

27:33.34
Seth Macey
Yeah.

27:39.89
Aaron
That doesn't fit. Or you color graded it completely different. You made it black and white. Like you did all these choices that are a reflection of like, it looks like my choices because you tagged me.

27:56.13
Aaron
And then it's like, well, yeah, No. So do you let that go? you have a conversation? do you now step in? Are you stepping on someone's toes? Like it's a tough, I think that's a tough spot.

28:06.75
Seth Macey
Yeah, i I am not a fan of serious conversations after the fact. Serious conversations come before you start.

28:21.35
Seth Macey
If in the instance you just described... we had a conversation about, hey, I'm not your socials person. I don't know your're your marketing strategies.

28:33.73
Seth Macey
I can feel less bad about that. Not that I can feel less bad. When that post flops, at least we had the conversation. It's clear that's...

28:45.33
Aaron
Right. Yeah.

28:45.81
Seth Macey
I it could be the piece of content that was bad, but at least we had the conversation that's... The posting and the tagging or the time of day, the song choice, whatever. That wasn't part of my role.

28:58.98
Seth Macey
So your your client can look at you and not be like, WTF? Especially if they just liked what you handed in, right? If they liked the video or the photos for what they were, and you've already had this conversation, and then they flop, you say, well, you liked it.

29:10.67
Aaron
yeah

29:15.83
Seth Macey
I mean, how am I to know what's going to perform, you know?

29:16.84
Aaron
Yeah.

29:19.32
Aaron
It might, yeah. ah let's Let's say worst case scenario. um They come back to you after it's it's ah it's adjusted. Let's call it adjusted. So you hand in work.

29:31.34
Aaron
It gets the okay. People like it. They send it to the social media director. It gets adjusted in any way and it doesn't do great. And then they come back to you and say, and we're not pleased with how that went.

29:44.93
Aaron
I think you can you can back it up to... you can back it up to here's here's my role in this. I handed you edited work that you liked and you were excited to post about.

29:56.26
Aaron
Let's get to that point in your emotions. You were excited to post about this and hand it on. You did post about it in a certain way and it didn't go well. So where did the chain break down?

30:09.25
Aaron
Right? it wasn't It wasn't about the work necessarily. Maybe it was about the time of day posted. Maybe it was about hashtags used or not used. Maybe it was about the caption, maybe whatever.

30:21.90
Aaron
It wasn't shared to the stories, like it wasn't tagged properly, whatever it may be. there' We can kind of just remind them, I think sometimes of like what my role was. Now, if you want me to have more of a say in postable items and things that I think, and now it's my responsibility, what we'll do well in the social media world, that is a different conversation and a different contract.

30:49.36
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

30:50.28
Aaron
And I'm talking to to myself.

30:50.76
Seth Macey
And if you're going to offer that, you better know what does well.

30:54.36
Aaron
Yeah, for sure. Cause does?

30:58.27
Seth Macey
Who does? Yeah. I mean, that's its own set of skills.

30:59.73
Aaron
Yeah.

31:02.79
Seth Macey
I mean, just but before you go on, the the way I use the camp analogy, the the example with the summer camp I was working for last year was the first time I did work for them. And I said, hey, I'm going to make four different kinds of reels. They're going to vary in length. They're going to vary in theme.

31:17.02
Seth Macey
um

31:19.98
Seth Macey
summer I said some are probably not going to do well and some may do amazing. I have no idea. The whole conversation we had was let's throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks and let's find commonalities.

31:25.54
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

31:32.08
Seth Macey
So going back to my suggestion about have these conversations before you even begin, yeah set realistic expectations, was that certain videos to, to not do well was expected.

31:47.94
Seth Macey
Now, fortunately they all did pretty well. and The ones that I made, um, by, by my standards and by their standards and standards anyways, but the conversation prior to even beginning or even editing or even filming was, Hey, we're in an experimental phase here, defining, you know, mitigated a lot of maybe stress and concerns about performance by,

32:03.39
Aaron
Yeah.

32:12.88
Seth Macey
saying out loud and having both parties agree that we're experimenting. This is an experimental phase. So even a bad post is a win because we know that doesn't work.

32:25.64
Seth Macey
You know, if we have one post that does really well and one that does really bad or a series where they're on either side of that line, we can now go in and dissect and pick apart.

32:25.93
Aaron
yeah

32:34.08
Seth Macey
And now the next time you and I work together, we can hammer and we can press that button repeatedly if that's what you please.

32:41.49
Aaron
Yeah, for sure. I think that's, think that's a good point as well. And I think it takes a lot of data and it takes, you can't have your, you can't have your work spontaneously posted once every eight weeks and then try to feel like, or any social media account, you can't be sporadic.

32:48.40
Seth Macey
Of course.

33:00.41
Aaron
I think, so I think, One thing we know is Instagram and these apps, I think reward consistency and being on there a lot and posting a lot.

33:12.82
Aaron
If you're doing it every once in a while, it's hard to hard to get some, I think some very accurate data in terms of what does well or what won't do well or

33:26.24
Aaron
what's being seen or not seen. It's tough.

33:28.32
Seth Macey
Yeah.

33:28.61
Aaron
I think we've learned a lot in this reflection and this conversation just for myself again.

33:30.85
Seth Macey
Hmm.

33:33.95
Aaron
and And I've been there again. And this is not something that keeps me up at night. This is more of a it would be nice. Sure. If everyone, when you handed something in and put a lot of time was like, I recognize your effort and great job, sir.

33:46.86
Aaron
Like not much more than that, but just a recognition, ah remembering that they don't know. They don't know what Premiere Pro looks like and the freaking nightmare that can be. They don't.

33:57.69
Aaron
ah They're just looking at the final product and then they're ah moving on to the thousand other business points that they have for the day. You did your job. What do you need?

34:07.03
Seth Macey
Yeah.

34:07.47
Aaron
A freaking award? And they're right. They're right. And I don't. The reward is the repeated work. The reward is the ability to be creative and work with a team and send things in.

34:22.58
Seth Macey
yeah

34:22.67
Aaron
and then And then the recognition of my job is done. Whatever happens with this stuff is completely their choice and their option and their preference, whatever they want to do.

34:38.52
Aaron
I'm not um not there.

34:38.57
Seth Macey
Yeah.

34:41.31
Aaron
i'm not getting paid to be their consultant on their social media posts and what happens.

34:45.05
Seth Macey
Or maybe you are, but at least it's defined.

34:47.35
Aaron
Sure, for sure, sure. And at least it's defined. And i think I think that's a good understanding.

34:50.47
Seth Macey
Yeah.

34:53.12
Aaron
ah brings us back to a a really important point that we often talk about is just detachment from the emotionality of doing this work. And as, as artists, I think is where we almost all start in the photography, in videography, in any art you start as like, I love this for me.

35:12.54
Aaron
I love this for what it does for me. I'm putting in a lot of time. I'm putting, that's the emotional attachment to it. Uh, waiting to see a Fox for 15 hours.

35:24.52
Aaron
There's an emotional attachment to that photo. that's different than just what the photo is. And when you transfer into client work, it's hard to become a little bit more stoic, a little bit more just linear of like my, like a soldier. My job is to take photos and get this done well, as fast as I possibly can and hand it over and move on.

35:55.37
Aaron
What's next?

35:56.70
Seth Macey
Yep. I think um a good a good mantra to return to is the artistic process is for me, the final outcome is for them.

36:09.23
Aaron
Yeah, that's good.

36:11.13
Seth Macey
you know just to don't know i'm like i'm not a big like affirmations guy but i think it's important at least internally that internal dialogue to return to some center points some some solid foundation ah foundational concepts whether it's you know quick little one-liners like that or we had one earlier in this episode but i can't remember what it was but just

36:12.30
Aaron
Do you know? I do.

36:36.05
Seth Macey
I think that, oh, it was about, some they've paid me multiple times to be here. Like, that's that's my thank you. You got to return to that stuff when you feel yourself going off the rails. ah Maybe not off the rails.

36:47.41
Aaron
yeah

36:47.86
Seth Macey
That's maybe a bit much. But when you feel yourself kind of being thrown off center or ah

36:56.52
Seth Macey
at unease.

36:59.07
Aaron
Yeah, for sure. And I think where this all came from, like little things can

37:05.82
Seth Macey
Thank you.

37:06.73
Aaron
can can kick that can down the road a bit. Like, all right, they they took the stuff, they posted it That's not how I would have posted it you know And then it's like, well, I hope this does well. And and maybe it's looking for an excuse of why it didn't.

37:21.64
Aaron
And when you know the work is like, meh. Or maybe they think it's meh. whatever it is. i think it's just sort of an unease that...

37:34.03
Aaron
the, the time, the effort, the work is actually appreciated.

37:38.49
Seth Macey
Yeah.

37:39.85
Aaron
and just kind of kind of getting through that and being able to separate it out and take a step back and, and kind of look at it for what it is and what you did and ask yourself truthfully in the mirror, did I do my best job here? Did I, did i accomplish my goals? Did I,

37:58.66
Aaron
Do what I was supposed to do. Is this worth what they paid for? ah all All those things. And if you can answer yes to those, then it's like, okay, all right, whatever happens after this is fine.

38:12.42
Seth Macey
Yeah, I was laughing when you were telling the yeah the the golf ball driving analogy where if you hit it 260, when you you hit it wrong, what you felt like you could have driven it 280.

38:23.45
Seth Macey
two eighty And I was saying, good job, man, because I don't know any better. how i was thinking of our first year in Alaska and last year when we were already so... nervous, maybe people more than others.

38:37.09
Seth Macey
I'm pointing at you about flying in a sea plane and our pilots about to touchdown, right?

38:41.16
Aaron
yeah

38:44.92
Seth Macey
And so like obviously takeoff and touchdown are the sketchiest parts of any flight, let alone a pontoon plane and i in Alaska with, you know, rain, little bit, little bit mist, little bit of fog.

38:45.84
Aaron
Oh yeah.

38:49.18
Aaron
Yeah. During a storm, winds rain. Yeah. Yeah.

38:58.30
Seth Macey
um and Just as we're about to, to hit the water, our pilot over the intercom goes, sorry guys. And I was like, we, what do you mean? Sorry. We're at the most critical part, part of the, of the flight.

39:10.91
Aaron
Yeah. Well, we were down.

39:12.08
Seth Macey
you're saying,

39:12.69
Aaron
We were safe. It was a bounce. He bounced.

39:15.09
Seth Macey
He bounced, and so he was apologizing for, the pilot was apologizing for not having a pristine landing in, you know, pretty decent chop.

39:24.54
Aaron
And all of us back there were just like, we're alive right now.

39:24.51
Seth Macey
And I, well, yeah, like but like like, thank you.

39:27.45
Aaron
We're good. We're on the ground. We're on the water.

39:29.91
Seth Macey
We're we're still here, and like you landed it, so we're pretty we don't really care about the bounce you had.

39:30.56
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

39:33.74
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

39:35.77
Seth Macey
But he did, right, because to our conversation, landing that plane is an art for him.

39:37.04
Aaron
Yeah.

39:41.89
Aaron
Yeah.

39:42.06
Seth Macey
for us, the desired outcome was get us there safe and alive. For him, it was, yeah I take pride in how I land this plane, but we don't care.

39:53.96
Aaron
Yeah.

39:54.70
Seth Macey
So like that process to to go back to that mantra, the artistic process is for me and the final outcome is for them.

40:02.75
Seth Macey
That's a perfect example. And I think,

40:05.88
Aaron
Yeah. And you can I go on that a little bit too is

40:09.05
Seth Macey
yeah, you can riff on that.

40:10.97
Aaron
is it's a great, how much goes into him landing that plane in that storm, the, the, the flaps, the speed, the throttle, the wind direction, the chop of the water, all these things that in ah in the back, we're just saying, I hope we live essentially.

40:32.20
Seth Macey
And we know nothing about how those we have no nothing about how those variables interact with what he's...

40:32.30
Aaron
I hope this goes well.

40:36.41
Aaron
So when we got out of the plane at the end, I wasn't like, Hey, pilot with braces. I wanted to say that I really appreciate the way you, you hedge those flaps against the wind. What was that? A 12, 15 knots coming to our South. That's a tough land. Like I didn't, I don't know the intricacies of everything and all the work that he's put in to do that really well.

41:00.92
Aaron
So my response was like,

41:01.62
Seth Macey
yes

41:04.10
Aaron
Hey, thanks, man. Like, that was cool seeing bears. And he's probably like, but bears? Do you know how hard that was?

41:11.24
Seth Macey
Do you know how close you came to like being submerged underwater, buddy?

41:11.45
Aaron
Like, yeah, that that's how the worst that was the hardest I've had to work to land four people, five people in my entire life.

41:23.42
Aaron
Like that, you have no idea.

41:23.89
Seth Macey
Yeah.

41:25.45
Aaron
So I think, yeah, I think that's the ah that's often the reminder is like, they...

41:26.37
Seth Macey
So there you go.

41:33.48
Aaron
and again, the emotional attachment to damn all these transitions. Yeah, it's 22nd video, but there's 12 transitions and there's music picking and sitting at my computer for hours. And then there's edits and there's back and forth.

41:50.78
Aaron
And really, they don't, they don't know that they don't know. They don't know any of that. And for them to be like, dude, for For our small company, you put in so much time and I want you to know that we really appreciate it.

42:05.73
Aaron
we've We've logged your computer. We see how much time you' you're there spending. Like we want to give you an office here and an immediate raise and we're going to fire three people to get you in.

42:17.31
Aaron
Like they don't know. They don't know.

42:19.92
Seth Macey
So maybe if you're ever in a position where you have to explain to Pete, here's the thing. So even though you don't know how to you know run the flaps and how important the wind is and the level of chop, you know how high the waves are when when landing a plane, you're firsthand part of the experience though.

42:34.71
Seth Macey
You're part of the experience in that plane as he's landing it, right? In our instance, there you know the marketing director isn't beside you at your computer watching you do all this stuff.

42:45.57
Seth Macey
So, there can be this tendency, of course, we deal with this all the time, where there's not a level, maybe respect is not the right word, but people just don't really see the level of effort that goes into making a video or editing a series of photos. They just don't see it. So, if you're ever in a position where you're having to enlighten somebody about the level of effort, you can use this plain analogy.

43:12.54
Aaron
Right.

43:12.63
Seth Macey
you know um what goes into landing a plane obviously we're not talking about life and death here with handing in photos like we are with landing a giant aircraft or any aircraft of that kind of that for that matter but the concept is the same you know i'm moving flaps i'm judging wind i'm judging speed i'm judging altitude and like i'm doing all these things you just don't see it and what i'm handing you is the landing

43:12.70
Aaron
Right.

43:33.33
Aaron
right

43:36.33
Aaron
right And we go so like, hey, cool. i don't I don't, I mean, in that situation, right? None of us were like, hey man, thanks for landing the plane.

43:49.76
Aaron
It's just kind of, it's an assumption.

43:50.02
Seth Macey
No, it was thanks for doing yeah Thanks for, thanks for the outcome.

43:55.75
Aaron
but Yeah, but we even say it We didn't say that to him.

43:58.98
Seth Macey
Oh, we should, we said, yeah, well, we definitely said thanks for, thanks for the, you know, at the end, of course.

43:59.09
Aaron
We're just like, oh, cool. Like,

44:04.39
Aaron
Well, maybe. i don't know if we're gushing about it. Like, I think we're all just in our own head and happy to be alive.

44:09.46
Seth Macey
like So great. So why are you not gushing about it? You're like, this guy is a seasoned pro.

44:14.59
Aaron
Right.

44:14.78
Seth Macey
He does this all the time. do we need to be like, hey, man, like, I love the way you landed that plane. He'd be like, do this all the time, man.

44:21.30
Aaron
Yeah.

44:21.33
Seth Macey
And that that kind of leads it.

44:22.04
Aaron
And as the client, that's our expectation is that the plane will be landed.

44:25.57
Seth Macey
Right.

44:25.96
Aaron
We might have fear that it won't be. So someone collecting your photos, the expectation is... is They're good photos and good video. This is why I'm paying you. So the there's only a problem if there's a problem.

44:38.99
Aaron
I think sometimes in business is like, ah we'll talk if there's a problem. If everything's good, I'm moving on to my next problem. My next thing, my next thing.

44:46.85
Seth Macey
Right.

44:46.99
Aaron
Like, yeah you're yeah, thanks for the photos. Like, what do you freaking need? An award and ribbon ceremony? Like, you did your job. Like, let's move on. And there's a difference between the business mind and the artistic mind. And I think sometimes they just hit.

44:59.93
Aaron
they just They just clash. They just clash in terms of emotion and feeling and empathy and all, like all those things. They're just different people.

45:05.86
Seth Macey
right

45:07.09
Aaron
So it is it is what it is. And I think the the separation to be able to, again, just be honest with yourself and say like, okay, I did a good job. I'm proud of this. This is my level of work.

45:18.99
Aaron
I'm handing this in. Whatever happens, happens.

45:21.88
Seth Macey
now the trap can be off and i feel like this i'm speaking from experience uh and with you know as a new photographer as and as a recent intermediate is that you do so much of ah so much photography and editing and handing in finished products that it just becomes you know regular for you normal that you can start to lose sight of how difficult

45:46.85
Seth Macey
it actually is to create these these assets. And when things start to feel routine and not difficult, there may be a disconnect with the amount that you're charging.

45:59.71
Seth Macey
Like, what this is so easy and I do this all the time. And it doesn't feel like an and you know a skill that requires a certain level of expertise. um Yeah, 20 bucks an hour is fine.

46:11.69
Seth Macey
Like, that's where you can get ah lost if you're not careful and that's where imposter syndrome like can hit in. I'm not worth 200 an hour. This is so easy to me.

46:23.10
Seth Macey
Well, why is it easy to you? Is it easy to you? Because you do it all the time. Have you struggled? Have you made mistakes in the past? Like, isn't that worth something to get to where you are right now? This is not an expert. This is not an easy job for everybody else.

46:36.70
Seth Macey
Is this an easy job for everybody else is another good mantra or a question to ask yourself when you're doubting price.

46:44.03
Aaron
Yeah, that is a good one. And I mean, you look out there, like the difficulty of people with technology just alone, like attaching something to an email or opening something up or sharing a drive or stuff doesn't come easy to everyone.

46:58.50
Seth Macey
Yeah. i

47:05.80
Aaron
I mean, have a text conversation with your mom. Like it's like, how are we not getting this yet? But it just doesn't come easy. Now step into Premiere for freaking 10 minutes and you'll lose your mind.

47:23.07
Aaron
You know, like a ah new person trying to understand what Premiere is,

47:24.34
Seth Macey
yeah

47:28.15
Aaron
I, I still have like these moments premiere. You can move your windows all around and anyone that uses premiere is going to be laughing right now because you can, you can take your timeline and and pull it out and move it.

47:35.02
Seth Macey
Thank you.

47:40.83
Aaron
You can put your audio interface there. You can show effects. You can, if you move one of those vision boxes, like one of those windows and it disappears, uh,

47:53.66
Aaron
it can be like an absolute nightmare to get it back. And you're like, where did my sequence go? How do I get this? And you're just, it's gone. It's gone forever. and And then it like saves your your window the way you you just kept it.

48:06.69
Aaron
And even if you go back to a saved, dude, you need help.

48:14.15
Seth Macey
He's talking to his dog, not me.

48:14.41
Aaron
No.

48:15.75
Seth Macey
But I do need to help too.

48:15.88
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. We're early today, so he's like, what are we doing? Why are we not walking yet? What is the problem? That's what's happening. I apologize ah for mya oh my gosh.

48:26.10
Seth Macey
i already walked Grizz and he's asleep. So my dog's well behaved.

48:32.95
Seth Macey
Well, we're going to wrap up.

48:33.08
Aaron
Huskies talk a lot, and it's really cute, but with your podcasting, it's not the cutest.

48:36.16
Seth Macey
We're going to wrap up soon anyways. That's all right. That's all right.

48:41.01
Aaron
Come here, bud. Let's at least talk.

48:41.74
Seth Macey
Get him on camera. Get him on camera for a, for real.

48:42.75
Aaron
Let's...

48:44.38
Seth Macey
Let's commercialize your dog.

48:44.58
Aaron
back oh me

48:48.64
Aaron
start at least talking to the Can we see him? oh

48:53.89
Seth Macey
What is. no, he's got stage fright.

48:56.90
Aaron
No. Yeah, and obviously always stay now he's scared. You don't like that, do you? There you go.

49:02.69
Seth Macey
Oh, there we go.

49:02.93
Aaron
very

49:06.50
Seth Macey
Well, we'll let you get outside with Cap. Exercise is good.

49:11.29
Aaron
good wrap-up. Real clean.

49:12.41
Seth Macey
But, but so yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any need to conclude today's episode. um Trying to detach from the art.

49:20.94
Aaron
to

49:21.54
Seth Macey
You know, I honestly blacked out this episode. I don't know what else there is to talk about.

49:24.41
Aaron
Yeah. Good conversation. Um, yeah. but Keying into like little things, little feelings and asking why and and kind of getting through it before it becomes a problem before you mess something up.

49:38.74
Aaron
I think that's really important.

49:39.38
Seth Macey
Yeah. Yeah.

49:39.86
Aaron
I think that's a process that, uh, maybe as a counselor is somewhat easier for me because of practice, but ah we so all, we're all human and we all get hit by these like little things. And a lot of the times it's, it's not the other people. It's not the external factors. It's like, what's going on inside of you that this is bothering you.

50:06.12
Seth Macey
yeah

50:06.40
Aaron
And if you can get down to that level, you can just see it.

50:06.71
Seth Macey
and

50:10.60
Aaron
The triggers, I believe, never go away. that's that that's ah and If you have this big thing in your past and something reminds you of it or triggers you or triggers an insecurity, I don't think that's ever going to go away.

50:25.15
Aaron
But what I do think the highest form is when you you get triggered, you immediately... There's that pause between reaction where you immediately can say like, huh, this is my thing.

50:38.96
Aaron
This is what I've worked through. I know why this is happening. I know what I need to do. I know how I need to think about it and I can move on and it's not going to spiral into this huge thing.

50:51.71
Aaron
And I think that's, that's the, that's the ultimate goal.

50:51.85
Seth Macey
Yeah.

50:54.27
Aaron
The triggers will always be there. The things that, that bug you and the insecurities and it will always be there.

50:56.11
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

51:01.53
Aaron
Um, It's just a matter of do they control you or do, are you able to kind of control through them?

51:10.17
Seth Macey
Right. And then I think the last takeaway is when you're working with the client, define your role, ask questions and set expectations proactively, not retroactively. It'll save you a lot of,

51:25.51
Seth Macey
um

51:28.46
Seth Macey
itll it'll avoid a lot of problems.

51:30.78
Aaron
Yeah. And I think make a running list. Like you learn these things as you go and make a running list of like, next time I need to do this. Next time I need to ask about this with a new client, because it's easy with a new client to just be like, same old.

51:44.28
Aaron
Oh, you want to pay me for photos and video? How much, how much time? Okay, cool.

51:49.78
Seth Macey
Yeah, absolutely.

51:49.84
Aaron
Do we need a contract? no I trust you.

51:52.36
Seth Macey
Yeah.

51:52.49
Aaron
No, like you got to go through, you got to go through your checklist, even if you feel like it doesn't apply, but like go through your checklist and keep a running checklist of all the times you were like, oh, I wish I had this conversation first, then put it on your checklist.

51:53.99
Seth Macey
You've been there. I've been there, man.

52:05.30
Seth Macey
Yeah.

52:07.33
Aaron
And then next time have that conversation first.

52:10.00
Seth Macey
It doesn't apply until it does. Yeah.

52:12.59
Aaron
Right, right.

52:13.41
Seth Macey
You know, so pleasure talking with you, buddy.

52:14.44
Aaron
Yeah.

52:17.04
Aaron
Hey, you too.

52:17.00
Seth Macey
Listen, if you like this episode and other episodes, feel free to leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It's a cost-free, effective way to support us and allow us to continue doing these. Of course, episodes will always be for free, but if you feel like ah you gained a lot of value from this episode or other episodes, feel free to leave a donation.

52:37.04
Seth Macey
on our PayPal, which is linked in the episode description. Again, these will always be for free weekly. All right, man. Until next time.

52:46.84
Aaron
All right. Take care.