Kyle Dudgeon - A Therapy Session for Creators

Kyle Dudgeon (@kdudgeonphoto) is an award-winning filmmaker and nature photographer based in the breathtaking landscapes of Bozeman, Montana. Kyle’s work is deeply rooted in his passion for the natural world, particularly the fascinating relationship between humans and birds as they navigate a rapidly changing environment.

Expect to Learn:

• How to take breaks when the pressure to produce feels overwhelming
• How creators can focus on personal growth and avoid comparison
• How to maintain motivation and momentum in long-term creative endeavors
• How there are limitless stories to tell with your camera
• How to celebrate consistency and effort over results

Kyle's Links:

Website: https://kyledudgeoncreative.com/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@kyledudgeoncreative

Sponsors:

Thanks to WhiteWall for being our lead sponsor this episode! They're the top choice for photographers who want high-quality prints, with a variety of material options, and who want their work delivered fast in 9 days or less! Use the code TPM2025 at checkout for 15% off: https://www.whitewall.com/

Thanks also to the National Park Foundation for sponsoring today’s episode. Enter the Share the Experience photo contest for a chance to win $10,000 and prizes from Celestron, Historic Hotels of America, and YETI. The grand prize winner’s photo could be featured on the America the Beautiful—the National Parks and Federal Recreational Lands Annual Pass.

 Submit your best shots now at sharetheexperience.org/tpm

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Thanks for listening!
Go get shooting, go get editing, and stay focused.

@sethmacey
@mantis_photography
@thephotographermindset

Transcript

INTRO:

00:00.95
Seth Macey
Hey, you're listening to the Photographer Mindset Podcast. I'm your co-host Seth Macey.

00:04.45
Aaron
And I'm your co-host Aaron Mannes.

00:06.27
Seth Macey
Today we had on Kyle Dugdeon, who's an award-winning filmmaker and nature photographer based out of breathtaking Bozeman, Montana. It was crazy to hear how close he was to Yellowstone. I got a little bit of jealousy at the end.

00:19.70
Aaron
Yeah.

00:21.17
Seth Macey
What did you think of today's episode?

00:21.29
Aaron
What a life.

00:22.21
Seth Macey
What should people listen out for? What can they expect to hear?

00:25.09
Aaron
It was great. I think he was very, ah very open and and vulnerable with the, just the the whole process of being a creator. And I think we had some good conversation and good thought process going on through all of us. And a lot of things were added in terms of personal experiences and what we all kind of go through and different ways to look at things and feel about things. And I think at one point he was like, this feels like a great therapy session.

00:51.38
Aaron
um And it kind of was for all of us. Like, I feel like we were all feeding off each other and it was a, it was a good conversation.

00:58.15
Seth Macey
Yeah, if you're somebody who deals with imposter syndrome or puts a lot of pressure on yourself, maybe the voice in your head sometimes isn't the nicest. As a creator, this episode's definitely for you. i think we touched on those topics all in our own personal way from personal experience. So without further ado, let's hear a word from the sponsor and then we'll get into our episode with Kyle Dudgeon.

INTERVIEW:

01:30.17
Seth Macey
Would you say you're living your dream life, man? You're in Bozeman, Montana. You're making films. You're surrounded by beautiful wildlife. Looks like you've spent a lot of time in Yosemite or in Yellowstone, I believe.

01:40.78
Kyle Dudgeon
Yep. um

01:41.52
Seth Macey
Are you are you living are you living your dream life that you once thought of?

01:42.79
Kyle Dudgeon
yeah

01:46.78
Seth Macey
Or.

01:46.92
Kyle Dudgeon
um I'm working towards it.

01:48.76
Seth Macey
OK, what does that mean?

01:52.02
Kyle Dudgeon
So I don't know. i I've been thinking about this a lot lately. um ah want to get to a point where photography and film is full-time.

02:03.98
Kyle Dudgeon
Right now, it's definitely, ah for me at least, it's like a a side hustle, you know, it's kind of, I've kind of had this evolution of photography where it was like growing up, you know, something to do in your free time, kind of jumped on the social media thing when Instagram was hot, you know, early and i was shooting for Instagram and, um, all those things.

02:15.05
Seth Macey
Right.

02:24.93
Kyle Dudgeon
And then I've kind of watched it evolve into like, Hey, I can make some money doing this. Um, but not quite enough to be like solely my full-time gig And it's like in the last two or three years, I've seen the light at the end of that, like that figurative tunnel of, Hey, I think I can do this.

02:50.07
Kyle Dudgeon
Like, but, but how do we, you know, get there? Like it's in sight, but how do we get there? And that's, I think once I'm there, hopefully, I mean, don't know. I'm one of those guys too. Like I never want to retire. Like i want to be 70 years old, not knowing what I want to do in my life.

03:05.39
Kyle Dudgeon
Um, But yeah, I think ah think we're getting close to being full-time into film, photo, maybe some writing.

03:16.13
Kyle Dudgeon
um And then maybe, yeah, he could call that ah ah dream life. But

03:21.02
Aaron
is there's Is there something comfortable about always searching a little bit?

03:27.04
Kyle Dudgeon
I think so, right? Yeah.

03:29.03
Aaron
Yeah, like always like, I'm almost there. I'm almost there. <unk> ah That's kind of a nice space to be.

03:33.94
Seth Macey
What does being there even mean though? Right? Like, I don't think we're ever there, you know?

03:37.84
Aaron
Well, it might be a mentality. Like you might not ever be there, but you might decide, I don't need to push anymore.

03:40.06
Seth Macey
sure

03:43.96
Aaron
There's nothing more I want to pursue. I'm like good just doing the same thing every day versus like, i could do a little more want to do it in this direction or just a little bit over there or i don't know it maybe it's mentality more than actuality

03:57.26
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah.

04:03.12
Seth Macey
Yeah, I always struggle with this thought of getting there or I've made it or I've done it. Because i don't I don't know, as creators, it maybe we think that when we we reach a certain point, and this will mean I've made it or I've gotten there.

04:10.29
Aaron
and

04:16.16
Seth Macey
But do we really see ourselves putting our feet up at that point, especially as creative people? think we're always kind of searching for more. So not really sure.

04:26.81
Kyle Dudgeon
I remember watching this video like, know, a couple months ago about the premise. It was on YouTube. The premise was like trying to get away from feeling like you always need to be productive.

04:38.82
Seth Macey
a

04:39.70
Kyle Dudgeon
You guys might have seen that. It went it went pretty viral.

04:42.07
Seth Macey
Who is the YouTube creator?

04:43.80
Kyle Dudgeon
I can't remember. And I thought of that immediately. I was like, damn, I should know this guy's name.

04:47.30
Seth Macey
Was Matt Devella?

04:49.03
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah, I don't know.

04:50.16
Seth Macey
I was hoping it was because literally referenced that maybe two weeks ago.

04:50.23
Kyle Dudgeon
don't know.

04:53.52
Kyle Dudgeon
Okay. It might have been.

04:54.37
Seth Macey
It is.

04:54.90
Kyle Dudgeon
It might been. I should go and find it. But I just, yeah, sure it is.

04:56.83
Seth Macey
It is.

05:00.27
Kyle Dudgeon
Um, it was such a beautiful concept, right? Cause like I work full time right now as a I'm a guide in, in the park and Yeltsin park, uh, photo guide, wildlife guide, all the things. And then I'm also like working on a documentary project, trying to push some photo stories while I'm doing that.

05:16.60
Kyle Dudgeon
And it's like, you need to turn your brain off every once in a while and, and catch up, right? Like catch your breath. Um, but it's so hard because you get home. It's like, like today, for instance, I've just been working eight days in a row doing stuff in the park and I'm like here and I immediately got to go like right into all the stuff I'm supposed to catch up on as far as like film and photo and all that. And it's like, hold on, like, let's just take a day and and do nothing and just relax. But it's so hard to, to not be like constantly pushing and being like, Oh, well that person put something out. So it's time for me to do it. And, um, don't know if that's,

05:51.61
Seth Macey
Why do you find it so hard? Is it that seeing other folks putting things out and thinking that you're being, for lack of a better term, outworked or ah you can insert whatever thing you want there?

06:04.33
Kyle Dudgeon
yeah

06:05.50
Seth Macey
Is it that? Is that why it's so hard? I mean, you can only speak from your experience.

06:09.14
Kyle Dudgeon
Right. Right. I've tried so hard to like, like we all do it like the, the comparison type of living that we're all in now, like we've moved so far away from community and now everything is just like compare, could compar compare, compare.

06:22.33
Kyle Dudgeon
And I think it's gotta have something to do with it. Like when you're sitting on your ass at home, relaxing, catching up on whatever it is, And you're watching all this beautiful stuff online constantly because it's always available and there's always something new.

06:39.73
Kyle Dudgeon
Like that definitely, feel like that definitely, it motivates you, but it also, if you're not working that day or something, it can make you feel a little bit like, maybe I should be, you know, like let's get the camera and go outside go shoot something.

06:51.06
Kyle Dudgeon
But I've been feeling

06:52.17
Seth Macey
That's the problem though, right? When you're on your off days and you're looking at content, you're catching everybody on their productive day. Sure.

06:58.79
Kyle Dudgeon
which Which they're productive. They might have been four months ago, but you're seeing it.

07:01.72
Aaron
Right. Right.

07:02.23
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah.

07:02.93
Aaron
right

07:03.89
Seth Macey
Right? And it's like oh man, am I the only person sitting around watching this new show on Netflix?

07:09.12
Kyle Dudgeon
Right.

07:10.68
Seth Macey
So I hear you. um

07:12.41
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah.

07:13.96
Seth Macey
From personal experience, yeah, i've I've also really struggled with trying to

07:19.85
Seth Macey
intentionally do nothing. ah So i can I can definitely relate. I've tried to find some things that

07:34.06
Seth Macey
feel somewhat productive or are simply just fun completely outside of the realm of photography.

07:44.85
Seth Macey
ah For me in the beginning, like finding something that just was slightly productive, for example, reading a book, a fiction book, let's say, i still felt like I was doing something that was good for me, but that took me out of the headspace of being a photographer, being a creator.

08:03.63
Seth Macey
Does that make sense?

08:05.81
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah. Riding a bike or something, right?

08:07.59
Aaron
Yeah.

08:09.49
Kyle Dudgeon
Like...

08:10.04
Aaron
yeah well

08:10.05
Seth Macey
Yeah. Like riding a bike, this has nothing to do with being a creative, but I know being outside is good for me. So like, it's kind of productive in a different sense, right?

08:16.38
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah.

08:18.54
Aaron
I'm wondering too, like you, you mentioned Kyle the heyday of Instagram or when it was, it was popping off with photography and, and those kinds of things. And I mean, the analogy would be like 10 people in a room with a million dollars of cash. It was like easy to,

08:33.13
Aaron
Like, let's keep grabbing money. We're gonna, if we keep at this, we're gonna come away with a lot. And now it kind of feels like a million people in a room with $10 cash. And to me, it's taken the pressure off a bit.

08:41.20
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah.

08:44.30
Aaron
Cause it's like, ah, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna fight tooth and nail for these $10. Like I'm gonna do what I wanna do. And I'm gonna try to enjoy it.

08:55.61
Aaron
um Versus like, ah, I'm missing out if I don't do this. So I feel like the, just even the mentality of the platform has shifted a bit.

09:06.61
Aaron
um I'm curious your thoughts on that in terms of like how it is now versus how it was and, and and where we're going with it.

09:08.11
Kyle Dudgeon
yeah

09:12.32
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah.

09:14.57
Aaron
And maybe it reprioritizes your, your why in photography.

09:16.44
Seth Macey
you

09:19.31
Aaron
It has for me. And I think kind of a nice way in that sense.

09:24.83
Kyle Dudgeon
mean You know what is? It just used to be like fun, like really fun. And like, I hate that like all of these conversations lead to like, Oh, how much we like, you know, hate Instagram or whatever. But, um, it used to be like,

09:40.51
Kyle Dudgeon
I'd go out, I'd shoot these cool pictures of birds in my backyard and all the people that I interacted with on the app would see it. And, you know, it would motivate you to like to shoot more or like get go out and get a better one or whatever it is. And then like be proud to show people like what you got.

09:57.34
Aaron
Yeah.

09:57.52
Kyle Dudgeon
And so I think I have in the last like year, I've probably posted it, my photo account, like four or five times on my page, know, and story is different. Obviously I like interacting with the few people that still do see my stuff on there.

10:11.89
Kyle Dudgeon
And I don't know. I also feel, feel like I can't even talk about Instagram compared to some of you guys out there who are like actually grinding and and making money off of it and everything. But yeah,

10:21.33
Seth Macey
Not us. Definitely not us.

10:23.10
Kyle Dudgeon
yeah Yeah, I've never monetized it.

10:25.33
Aaron
yeah

10:27.61
Kyle Dudgeon
ah you know i've just I've never gone down that path with it, but I just i miss when like the people I wanted to interact with and was interacting with constantly with like, see your stuff and, and, you know, look forward to that. And I feel like now, like, even if it's your best friend, like you just get sucked into the whole, like watch their story, scroll right past to the next thing. And, and so I've been trying to be better about like putting it down. And when I do pick it up, like really engaging, um, with what I'm seeing, but

10:58.61
Seth Macey
So what's the evolution of that as a creator then? if ah the motivation If part of the motivation anyways was that feedback and wanting to continually or inspire your viewers, and since that's no longer there's no longer a viable arena to do that in the same way, what's the evolution do you think for you ah to kind of change the motivation?

11:26.40
Kyle Dudgeon
So that's the part i should have touched on that too, is like I've, it's been, it's been a while since I feel Instagram has motivated my work, you know, like I i don't shoot for it.

11:38.16
Kyle Dudgeon
Um, you know, I shoot for myself mainly if I'm shooting at all anymore, right now, right now it's very project based, but like if I'm going out and I'm picking up a camera and I'm firing off, you know, shots of whatever I want to photograph that day, be it like an owl or,

11:53.20
Kyle Dudgeon
um or something like it's for me and and my experience now is like processing photos because i just love that um i love that whole process you know watching it from start to finish seeing like seeing what your camera can still do is you know five-year-old camera like oh wow this image quality is still really good um but it does eventually you know at some point like land on instagram um i think what i use it for now is like

12:06.98
Seth Macey
Yeah.

12:24.24
Kyle Dudgeon
Mainly it's it's it's the easiest portfolio to show people. Like we all carry around business cards, which is great, but like how often do you get a business card and you just stick it in your pocket and you forget to ever go to like that person's website?

12:37.39
Seth Macey
Like 99% the time.

12:37.39
Kyle Dudgeon
But like all the time, I feel guilty.

12:38.46
Seth Macey
Yeah. Yeah. yeah i'm ready

12:41.30
Kyle Dudgeon
I got three sitting right here on desk.

12:41.91
Seth Macey
and

12:44.90
Kyle Dudgeon
But like how easy is it to be like, hey, follow me on Instagram so we can like keep in touch and so you can see my photography and and stories and yeah.

12:50.59
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

12:53.06
Seth Macey
yeah yeah Uh, rewinding a bit, Aaron had a, uh, when he was speaking, said the word keyword pressure. um do you feel as a creator that there's potentially areas or an area where you put maybe an excessive amount of pressure on yourself?

13:12.35
Seth Macey
If at all, for example, i need to, I need to nail everything on my shot list. 100% how I've envisioned or This short film I've made needs to be seen by at least 50,000 people.

13:26.97
Seth Macey
And I'll leave it at that before i I give part two of this question, because I'm interested to hear this.

13:31.22
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah. All like literally every single waking minute of the day.

13:35.27
Seth Macey
Really?

13:35.81
Kyle Dudgeon
My friends, like, they, like, rip on me because I'm the most... Like, it's you're supposed to be your your own harshest critic, right? But i've somehow something in my brain has taken that and just, like, slam dunked it over myself a hundred times. Like,

13:50.75
Kyle Dudgeon
i Again, like ah that that concept of like we've moved so far from community and we've gone like straight into this comparison culture of like I can't watch something without being like, damn, I should have shot that sequence like that or you know colored it this way. or and It's hard to say. like I and don't want to say I have imposter syndrome, but I've of not taken film courses.

14:18.36
Kyle Dudgeon
I never took a photography class. you know like I've just figured it out on my own. So there's parts of my like workflow and how I shoot a documentary, short documentary that I just have no idea what I'm doing.

14:32.01
Kyle Dudgeon
i'm figuring it out as I go. you know And then to be in a place like this where there's like some really incredible filmmakers, like some of the some of the best shooters anywhere in like nature and and doc and all that stuff.

14:34.37
Seth Macey
Yes.

14:45.31
Kyle Dudgeon
And I'm sitting here like calling myself a filmmaker on my website. like am I?

14:50.43
Seth Macey
yes

14:50.59
Kyle Dudgeon
Thank Thanks. thanks

14:53.03
Seth Macey
You are. and we we We have this topic all the time. And I'll share this again for listeners just from a personal, it's my personal opinion. ah The first time i bought a telephoto lens and I took a picture of a chipmunk, I put in my Instagram bio, wildlife photographer, like the very first time.

15:11.85
Seth Macey
Because there's no

15:15.39
Seth Macey
there's no indication of your skill level in that title. You know, there's there's terrible people who are in different professions all over the place, and there's exceptional ones as well.

15:28.09
Aaron
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

15:28.35
Seth Macey
i think I also found it interesting what said.

15:29.00
Kyle Dudgeon
yeah

15:30.32
Seth Macey
I don't think I have imposter syndrome, but, you often everything that preceded but is void. So maybe you do have a little bit. um And I think knowing that is helpful. I think most of us feel some sense of that.

15:49.28
Seth Macey
regularly. Like I know I do. um there's been a couple times I just like even on the show here where I'm like, what am I doing here? People are listening every week to this.

16:01.50
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah.

16:02.22
Aaron
yeah

16:02.85
Seth Macey
Uh, and I think it's just part of the evolution of, I think it's part of the human experience to be honest. I think, uh, some of those people who you've mentioned where you're saying, Oh, I should have shot it this way. I should have done it that way. Probably feel what you're feeling to a similar degree, just in a different,

16:18.45
Seth Macey
perhaps way.

16:23.01
Aaron
i think if i can jump into it i think

16:23.06
Kyle Dudgeon
yeah

16:26.83
Aaron
there's a lot of angles coming at every individual that's basically you're not quite enough you know like yeah almost anyone when you leave with the best childhood their parents you could be like yeah but like i never felt like i was quite good enough i got all a's but they were wondering where the a pluses were you know like that kind of thing then you have capitalism and marketing is just driven um I think especially to women, like you're not thin enough, you're not pretty enough makeup, fake, like all this stuff.

16:56.77
Aaron
And I think guys too, like with a lot of different aspects and i think it just permeates. And then social media too, divides and conquers and and like, I'm a wildlife photographer, but geez, I'm just taking photos, not just chipmunks.

17:02.68
Seth Macey
Okay.

17:11.36
Aaron
They're amazing, but I only have a chipmunk in my portfolio. And then look at this guy that lives out in Yellowstone. Like, am I really, yeah And you could be happy one minute. Seth could be happy to say like, I just got a new lens. I just saw a chipmunk. Wow. The detail is so sight. I'm all, I'm editing it. I love chipmunks, like their color.

17:30.73
Aaron
So cool. Post it and then see a grizzly bear with cubs from Yellowstone and be like, Oh, what the fuck? Like, damn it.

17:37.26
Seth Macey
Yeah.

17:38.52
Aaron
So I think from all angles, we're getting nailed with like, nah, you're not quite there, you know?

17:47.28
Kyle Dudgeon
yeah

17:48.06
Aaron
And I think that takes a ah security or a sort of confidence or thick skin and the ability to just kind of ignore it and keep doing what you love. And I feel like those are the people that are successful. There's that true layer of, oh, they just really love what they're doing and you can tell.

18:05.72
Aaron
And then that's attractive on its own. i don't know, just some food for thought.

18:10.94
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

18:11.00
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah. I feel like you go to all these, um, like these national park towns, like where was I in a, I was in Sedona. Oh, Sedona is kind of crazy. It's not national park, but I was in Sedona in April and walking down the street with a friend and there was this gallery and I just walked in and photographer was there and just beautiful space, you know, and amazing images.

18:23.76
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

18:34.69
Kyle Dudgeon
And like this, this guy is just in downtown Sedona, one of the coolest little towns in the West. And, gets to be surrounded by his artwork every day.

18:46.31
Kyle Dudgeon
just to meet all these people that are just passing through and talk to them about photography and, and all the things. then he locks his door at night and I'm sure he's got another job, but like that is his version of photography and he loves it.

18:58.54
Kyle Dudgeon
He's inspired by it. I'm sure. And it's hard to like sit in a room and I guess like compared to anybody else when you're just looking at all the places that you've been in and i don't know, third photographs, like a memory, like it's gotta be a pretty cool feeling to sit in a gallery of all the things that you've seen and, and whatnot, you know,

19:14.26
Seth Macey
Sure.

19:15.17
Aaron
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

19:16.11
Seth Macey
here's a Here's the flip side of that coin potentially, though, just to demonstrate, I guess, how

19:24.21
Seth Macey
You know, he might have a conversation with you and you're talking about how often you're getting out or you're a guide. And he's thinking, man, I'm stuck in my own gallery nine to five because it's my source of income. And I'm like, I'm not out as much as this guy. Man, I wish I could do that. I'd sell half my gallery just to go do that.

19:40.19
Seth Macey
Perhaps you're thinking, wow, this person's made it. they They're surrounded by their artwork in Sedona. they're So it's just it's the lens, right?

19:48.14
Kyle Dudgeon
yeah

19:49.20
Seth Macey
and So I think it's a helpful reminder to feel, to remind, you you know, it's helpful to remind yourself that no one's, no one's got it all figured out or life's not a piece of cake, right?

20:00.57
Seth Macey
I guess I'm curious because you said you you said you put so much pressure on yourself. Do you ever think about how to alleviate that or? I'm curious as to what the tone of voice is when applying that pressure.

20:10.70
Seth Macey
Like, is it a nice voice or is it a, an assertive voice, et cetera?

20:10.76
Aaron
Yeah.

20:15.84
Seth Macey
Like, is it, oh, damn, you're a piece of shit. You didn't get out today. You suck. Or is it, it it's, it's,

20:20.38
Aaron
you Do you do what seth Seth does if I'm like, buddy, I'm really anxious today.

20:20.94
Kyle Dudgeon
here Yeah.

20:24.12
Aaron
And he's like, have you ever tried not being anxious today? That's his therapy. He's joking, but it's a, it's a funny concept.

20:31.78
Kyle Dudgeon
Right.

20:32.39
Seth Macey
But like not really at the same time.

20:33.74
Aaron
Yeah.

20:34.15
Seth Macey
Obviously, like I'm not, not, if you have clinical anxiety or depression, those are serious things. I'm just saying like there's something about not taking everything so seriously that I'm saying from experience.

20:38.96
Aaron
Yeah.

20:39.88
Kyle Dudgeon
Mm-hmm.

20:43.79
Seth Macey
Like I'm trying to live that, you know, that mantra a bit where a few, like maybe a few months ago we were talking about nihilism as a creator, right?

20:44.36
Aaron
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

20:54.99
Seth Macey
And I've been able to go from existential dread thinking that nothing really matters to, hey, nothing really matters.

21:01.69
Kyle Dudgeon
um

21:02.27
Seth Macey
Like, whatever. Like, I'm just going to do the best I can and do things that I want to do that are fun. But left about me, back to you. What's that voice sound like? Have you thought about ways to alleviate maybe some of that pressure if it's feeling like a pathology in a way?

21:16.23
Kyle Dudgeon
that voice has so many different masks that it wears you know like monday it's one way tuesday it's another um i'll give you a ah good example it's just like recently in my memory um so i'm so working on this this project right now and I decided a couple of years ago with the help of a friend of like, Hey, short documentary, like that's the way everything's going. People are watching stuff these days. Like let's buy it, buy a mirrorless camera, like go that direction. And I made this little owl film. This is going back like four years ago, but um it worked and it was great. And when it's out, it's awesome, but it takes you ah long time to make that project come to life.

21:54.31
Kyle Dudgeon
And I think that ah what helps me is like, Okay, you have this project on the back burner that's going to take you a year to put it out. But when you put it out, it's going to be so awesome.

22:05.47
Kyle Dudgeon
Like this one I'm working on right now, like we're like setting up film premieres and like panel discussions around it. Like we're just so excited to get people in like a seat to watch it, to have a conversation that's going to help like, you know, the future for grizzly bears, hopefully. And But that's ah like a year out, you know?

22:22.90
Kyle Dudgeon
So for me, wallet what helps is to be productive in like other ways. And recently it's been... Um, I've kind of strayed away from my initial point, but recently it's been like sub stack for me.

22:36.47
Kyle Dudgeon
If i have like a morning that I'm just like feeling creative, like today's a good example, woke up, got a good night's sleep, not up at five in the morning guiding.

22:37.05
Seth Macey
Thank you.

22:44.67
Kyle Dudgeon
Right. Um, I'll get on, I'll just like, you know, brain dump onto, onto a sub stack post, like send it off or like post some images off my camera, off my, you know, whatever, and and just get something out there. Like just that little bit of productivity helps.

22:58.52
Kyle Dudgeon
um But to get back to the initial point, I was, i was feeling down on myself. ah Not yesterday, the day before. And I went out in the morning, like to go film bears. it didn't really go that well. And I was like, damn, like now I'm really down on myself.

23:15.79
Kyle Dudgeon
So I'm also running these camera traps at the same time while I'm working on this this bear film just to kind of like help the storyline along. i want I want to make this grizzly bear image, like walking through a very, um, not an urban area of like this, this farm setting in a way like grizzly bears walking past farm equipment and like electric fencing, all the things.

23:35.95
Kyle Dudgeon
And, uh, as with, we know, with camera trapping, that's really hard. So I've not had success with it so far, but I don't film bears. I'm really down on myself, more down on myself than I was when I went out to film bears.

23:47.68
Kyle Dudgeon
Um, go to check my cameras. And sure enough, I got like three or four really sweet images. Like the flashes went off the sensor fired at the right time, like all the things. So immediately I'm like, right, like, cool. There's a little bit of success there. Like a little, a little, like, I don't know something to be happy about in that moment, um, on this greater, like creative track.

24:08.96
Kyle Dudgeon
And then, you know, shortly after that, i set everything up again, went back into town. I got some really cool news about another thing, project related. And it was like, that was awesome. It spun my mood around almost immediately, just like having those little wins along the way.

24:23.73
Kyle Dudgeon
And I think again, like this, this longer format project, it's going to be awesome when it's there, but you got to stay like productive and, and, and whatnot along the way, or you just kind of get lost in that, like,

24:37.31
Kyle Dudgeon
that creative process because you shoot something you like and then it sits on a hard drive for three months so you can actually get around to cutting it, coloring it, all the things.

24:45.00
Seth Macey
Sure.

24:45.27
Kyle Dudgeon
If that makes sense.

24:48.05
Seth Macey
What does, uh, just to needle this further, I was down on myself. What does that mean specifically for you?

24:55.74
Kyle Dudgeon
I think it goes back to what we were just kind of just talking about, like the that that productivity mindset and I don't know. Maybe it was, I can't remember specifically,

25:07.21
Kyle Dudgeon
but You know, I think for me, when my camera, like when I'm, when I'm shooting a ah documentary project, I don't know where I got this lens cap from.

25:18.66
Kyle Dudgeon
um When I'm shooting a documentary project and my camera's in my bag for like a day or two days or three days, I just feel like very unproductive for that project, which is like, it couldn't be further from the truth, you know?

25:28.72
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

25:33.82
Kyle Dudgeon
And, you know, you look around at some of these like larger productions and everything and like there's like fin a finite amount of shoot days that they had. And now I'm talking about like an eight month long, you know, season of filming.

25:48.53
Kyle Dudgeon
And there might be 20, 25 days where I'm like camera in hand for several hours of that whole eight months. And like forgetting about that and and having a camera sit in a bag for, you know, for a week and not, not filming anything while I'm like down in the area where like everything's going on. It's just, that gets my brain wired in the wrong way.

26:12.78
Aaron
you

26:13.94
Seth Macey
Makes sense.

26:14.06
Kyle Dudgeon
If that makes sense. Yeah.

26:15.78
Seth Macey
Yeah. i I find it interesting how this the... I this is natural, but how that... Finding the bears on the the camera trap just like totally flips the script.

26:32.86
Seth Macey
I mean, that day continues to get worse by the sounds of it if that card's empty. Yeah.

26:39.05
Kyle Dudgeon
Right. Like spiraling out of control. Mm-hmm.

26:41.86
Seth Macey
And it's hard what I'm mentioning is it's hard to try to learn to accredit the small wins to the effort versus the results.

26:54.99
Seth Macey
Do you know what I'm saying?

26:58.01
Seth Macey
Like, we want we want results, but it's hard to... I think it's it can be helpful if we can try to learn to...

27:06.40
Aaron
Yeah.

27:07.04
Seth Macey
For example, i went and checked the cameras. like That's consistency. That's that's a win. i i showed up today regardless of whether the card was had things on it or not.

27:20.39
Seth Macey
And I think we do have chances throughout our day to kind of build that muscle. mean, I'm not perfect at that, but i I can relate entirely to what you're saying where i almost feel like my where you can Where I've in the past felt like my worth is entitled to the result that I achieved.

27:44.34
Seth Macey
Because it feels it feels good, right?

27:47.07
Kyle Dudgeon
Thank you.

27:47.19
Aaron
Yeah, that's the dopamine. as the As the quote says, the person that loves hiking will hike much further than the person that loves the destination.

27:48.76
Seth Macey
Sure.

27:57.31
Seth Macey
Interesting.

27:58.64
Aaron
Right? like and And I think that's a lot of the... the diminishing returns of sort of the dopamine hit, it becomes like, you can just think about it with any species, your first grizzly bear viewing an image.

28:14.47
Aaron
Okay. So Seth brought us to Jasper on the highway. We see our first grizzly bear with cubs. And i basically went 70 miles an hour in reverse on the highway.

28:26.04
Aaron
to like get back to see it. Everyone's like, that's very illegal. And I went, I don't care. Like I'm, I'm doing it. ah Hopefully there's a statute of limitations and that was three years ago.

28:34.40
Kyle Dudgeon
That's very illegal.

28:38.22
Aaron
So any who, ah but the difference being just this summer, we're with Grizzlies in Alaska for now the second summer in a row and a chill, putting the camera down by our side and just watching.

28:53.06
Aaron
Like there's a different sort of adrenaline hit in even just that example. And I think and not, not to mention like the heyday of Instagram, but it's the beginning of our passion.

29:04.04
Aaron
And we're getting for the first time, a lot of accolades, comments, praise for something that we're just starting.

29:09.69
Seth Macey
Thank you.

29:13.68
Aaron
And man, does that feel good? It's like, yeah imagine picking up piano for the first time or guitar and everyone's like, you are so good at this.

29:16.60
Kyle Dudgeon
Thank you.

29:23.18
Aaron
You have a innate talent. Like you, you would just be blown away and you'd be, you would live off of that rocket for a long time. And I think just now it's like,

29:34.78
Aaron
It reminds me of when i got into golf so much that I got certified and became a teacher and I was just teaching golf all the time and playing golf all the time and practicing for my own game. And eventually I was like, I like i can't like don't want to be out on the course anymore.

29:47.98
Aaron
Like it's just too, there's too much stuff and it's not the same excitement that I had. Like I took it too far or too far in the wrong direction. And I think no matter what it's, it's fighting that, that sort of numbness that we can get and getting back to the, I love the process. What did I love from the beginning? Like being out in nature and seeing animals and,

30:09.81
Aaron
Even seeing like something from a distance and having the crappiest picture would make me so excited. And like keying back into that versus the, I need to do better, better, better, better better better better to get more, more, and more, more reward reward, reward, reward. That's hard to say over and over and over. but That's sort of what I've been thinking too. And like slowing down a bit and, and going back through photos and thinking about memories and ah what was that like? And let's, let's edit a one photo from that trip. Like let's spend the night and take time again to sit and edit.

30:43.69
Aaron
And mean, it's a different sort of feel than like pushing things out, but I'm trying to key back into like the excitement of it versus the, like Seth saying, the the destination.

30:55.54
Seth Macey
perhaps I guess there's added pressure because in your mind, I need this for my project. hey

31:01.07
Aaron
Yeah.

31:01.43
Kyle Dudgeon
Right. Right.

31:01.80
Seth Macey
And I guess what that leads to is the need to have blind faith that the outcome will happen. Right. I've been in this situation before. I'm familiar with, with this feeling of coming up short and just having blind faith. Right.

31:23.22
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah. feel like every one of these projects, like something happens down the stretch where it just like pulls it all together. at least it's how it's been for me so far. It's like the the come to Jesus moment kind of thing. and you can't bank on that happening.

31:37.76
Kyle Dudgeon
Right.

31:38.37
Seth Macey
like you sort of can. You sort of can if you have a tracker. I'm not saying that you just you're totally apathetic, right? But if you have 10 projects where...

31:44.66
Kyle Dudgeon
Right.

31:47.54
Seth Macey
It hasn't felt like it's going to go, and then it goes. On the 11th one, why would it be any different? I remind myself of that when I feel like I'm in the shit and things aren't going right. I'm like, I've been here before. I know this feeling, man.

31:59.97
Seth Macey
Well, that's good.

32:00.57
Kyle Dudgeon
This whole podcast is like a therapy session.

32:01.08
Aaron
I was just kind of...

32:02.33
Kyle Dudgeon
This is wonderful. are you guys going to sell?

32:05.41
Seth Macey
But do you know what i mean, though? if If you have like 40 instances, why is why is yep episode 41 going to be different?

32:07.37
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah.

32:13.13
Seth Macey
Like you're going to find a way to make it happen. For me, that's like a helpful reminder in the moment when I feel like a failure.

32:20.64
Kyle Dudgeon
Mm-hmm.

32:21.93
Seth Macey
I don't know if you guys can relate or if I'm making much sense, but for me, it works, at least in terms of being that voice being less critical. Yeah.

32:31.13
Kyle Dudgeon
Mm-hmm.

32:32.27
Aaron
Yeah, experience drives like confidence, I think, getting getting through it.

32:35.41
Seth Macey
Right.

32:36.34
Aaron
I mean, every I've got a cabin shoot next weekend, and it's been a minute, so I'm kind of like my brain's getting a little stressed with like, how's this flow go again? like I'm i'm just um starting now. The shoot starts now, and it's a week away of like just the flow, the shot list, the thinking, the figuring out what sunrises, sunsets, all all this stuff that you start to ruminate over, and there's a there's a nervousness to it.

33:01.34
Aaron
I do have an underlying confidence because I've done it many times that it'll be okay. Like yeahll I'll get what I need to get, even if I'm not feeling like I know exactly what I'm going to be doing.

33:07.64
Seth Macey
right

33:12.71
Seth Macey
I don't think you know what you're doing ever.

33:12.79
Aaron
Right.

33:15.67
Aaron
No, you don't really, you can only predict, but you can't.

33:18.19
Seth Macey
i meant i meant you personally.

33:20.18
Aaron
Oh yeah.

33:20.14
Kyle Dudgeon
I didn't know that was directed into the admin.

33:20.94
Aaron
Well, Oh yeah. But, but anyone, I agree. I agree.

33:24.68
Seth Macey
Aaron never knows what he's doing.

33:25.16
Aaron
It's, it's,

33:25.88
Seth Macey
He's a he's a fraud.

33:27.14
Kyle Dudgeon
None of us do. Mm-hmm.

33:28.34
Aaron
Yeah. Well, we're projecting onto the unknown, technically, and we don't know what it's going to be.

33:32.91
Seth Macey
Yeah.

33:34.90
Kyle Dudgeon
Mm-hmm.

33:35.03
Aaron
we We just try our best and try to predict and try to make things and problem solve and ah rely on past experience.

33:39.01
Seth Macey
Sure.

33:42.91
Aaron
That's it.

33:42.93
Kyle Dudgeon
Mm-hmm. yeah I always look at it like if you're, if you're at least trying to make a documentary or whatever, like you're doing more than you would be if you weren't trying to tell that story at all.

33:55.76
Kyle Dudgeon
So some result of that is going to be like beneficial to the greater good, whatever you're trying to do.

34:02.76
Seth Macey
yeah

34:02.78
Kyle Dudgeon
Um, and that's, that's something that's helped me along is like, dude, remember why you're doing this, right? Like,

34:09.39
Seth Macey
What is that for you?

34:12.63
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah. for So for this, i mean, for this bear film, it's like the original goal was to tell my buddy's story and, and you know, get him support for his program. That's going to hopefully like help communities along the,

34:33.05
Kyle Dudgeon
the expansion of grizzly bears into the future, like become bear proofed. So even if I don't make an award-winning documentary, like we're still going to have a lot of cool footage and important storylines to like show people what he's done. And, and that's great because the end of the day, like, you know, a group of donors at a nonprofit,

34:54.83
Kyle Dudgeon
you know they're They don't care about how something was shot. They just want to know the story. um I'll fall back to that. Again, there's nobody else out here

35:03.30
Seth Macey
um That's an amazing attitude, man.

35:05.68
Aaron
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

35:08.03
Kyle Dudgeon
there's nobody else like out here trying to tell that story about like this guy, my buddy specifically, you know? Um, so we're doing something.

35:20.45
Kyle Dudgeon
We're not just sitting there and, and tucking our tail between our legs and saying, wow, I'm not a filmmaker, but yeah.

35:21.08
Seth Macey
Right.

35:26.90
Seth Macey
Sure. Yeah, and it's one of a kind in its own sense, right? And that's an emotionally compelling reason to to continue when things are difficult, right? um You're helping your friend, who I'm sure you care about, and for something that's going to help communities.

35:44.24
Seth Macey
I think it's important to have, say this, emotionally compelling reasons for doing something because you fall back on that, to use your terminology. If you're your reason for doing something is not doesn't move you, you're you're just not going to stick with it when things are not easy.

36:02.31
Seth Macey
Sure.

36:05.50
Kyle Dudgeon
It's also funny, like saying this stuff out loud is helpful because

36:10.29
Seth Macey
sure

36:10.92
Kyle Dudgeon
you know, like 10 years ago, Kyle ah would not have imagined that, you know, I literally have a camera trap out right now on a, on a farm taking photos of grizzly bears. And while that's going on, like I'm driving my car into the mountains in Montana to try and film them.

36:29.95
Kyle Dudgeon
And then I got an interview with this person next week. Who's like a bear biologist and like, just like what all these things, you know, and, um, kind of to to go way back to that, the beginning of this conversation, like the comparison culture idea, like,

36:34.42
Aaron
Yeah.

36:35.61
Seth Macey
Sure.

36:47.09
Kyle Dudgeon
you can probably take 10 filmmakers, photographers, journalists, put them all in a room together and no path to that position was the same, right? Like we all got there a different way.

36:59.66
Kyle Dudgeon
And that's something I like to remind myself of constantly too, is like, I'm 28 years old. There's people who've been shooting stuff since they were like 20 and 21.

37:10.28
Kyle Dudgeon
That's beyond, right? Like BBC and like all the craziest shows

37:12.86
Aaron
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

37:16.22
Kyle Dudgeon
things that you see on TV and they're, they're just kids out there. And like, they had an opportunity at that age, they took it. You know, I had to, I had to get out here from New York, from the East coast. Like that was a whole chapter of my life. Like,

37:31.75
Kyle Dudgeon
being an intern, working as a ah field technician, figuring out I even wanted to go to Montana. And then, you know, beyond that, like having cameras with me and, and, and proving my worth to, to people who want to support my projects and, and all that sort like, it's a whole, it's a whole thing.

37:49.35
Kyle Dudgeon
Right. And yeah, that the journey, right.

37:50.09
Seth Macey
Okay.

37:52.60
Kyle Dudgeon
The journey's part of it and, and it's still got a long way to go, but you know,

37:58.36
Aaron
Yeah. And you're, it's all relative. relative You're, you're 28 looking at 21 year olds. I started at 39 with a camera for the first time. And now I have a podcast about photography with Seth, you know, like it's bonkers. But at that time, it was so easy to be like, I'm too old for this game. Like, look at all these kids that are just crushing it.

38:18.84
Aaron
ah But you just you keep going. And it's it's it's hard to have blinders on sometimes. And you can you can really step in it if you're not looking around. But. it's important to do your own thing and find, again, find your why and not be like, oh, well that younger person's better than me. So they're already, they're already lapping me.

38:40.98
Aaron
I'm just going to hang it up.

38:42.14
Seth Macey
Yeah, why bother, right?

38:43.34
Aaron
Yeah.

38:43.40
Seth Macey
Okay.

38:44.27
Aaron
Yeah. It's, it's the same thing about your favorite bands. Like not everyone's the best guitarist, but they have a thing. They have a thing in a style and a it or a vibe or whatever it is.

38:57.33
Aaron
And you like, you connect to them.

38:57.41
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah.

38:59.62
Aaron
doesn't matter if they're five years older, 10 years older, 10 years younger, super young. There's just like a talent that you like. And, not everyone's a virtuoso, but there's, there's a lot of room for storytelling period and style and tone.

39:18.13
Aaron
And i think, I think that's important to remember.

39:18.73
Kyle Dudgeon
yeah

39:21.88
Kyle Dudgeon
It's funny you bring up musicians because like i I feel like lot recently I've been looking at musicians and finding inspiration for my my story work. is like how many like CFG chord progressions are there in the world?

39:34.54
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

39:36.56
Kyle Dudgeon
And how many more have yet to be written?

39:36.67
Aaron
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

39:38.97
Aaron
yeah

39:39.20
Kyle Dudgeon
And these people are just charging with their head down and grinding it. And you know what? the The framework's kind of laid out for you if you want to become like a touring artist and make a little of money here and there, but that's what you do. Like, and no one bats an eye.

39:52.53
Kyle Dudgeon
And when you're a musician, Like everybody supports you. Right. And you can say like, wow, um that's, that's really neat. Like they're in a van driving across the country, playing little coffee shops, whatever it is, or busking out on the street. Like, I don't know.

40:05.74
Kyle Dudgeon
I'm very inspired by musicians um in that way.

40:09.92
Aaron
Me too. And I always think about this. If I, if I put on Spotify and I'm brand new to it, so it doesn't know my algorithm and it's, it's just launching. I say like, I like, I like rock and it's just launching me songs.

40:25.95
Aaron
i I know myself as like a listener. I'm going to be like, meh, meh, meh, like nine out of 10 times, maybe one song I'm like, all right, that's okay.

40:36.39
Aaron
But is it the one that I really connect with? And these people have made it like these musicians have made it in some sense, the sense of they have an album on Spotify or they have, maybe they're famous as can be.

40:48.45
Aaron
Maybe Seth likes Nickelback and it's not for me.

40:50.83
Seth Macey
I do like me.

40:51.13
Aaron
Yeah.

40:51.69
Seth Macey
What do you mean maybe?

40:53.65
Aaron
I'm just saying like there's there's a lot of different, there's ah there's a seat for every ass or an ass for every seat in the sense like there's a lot of room for discerning enjoyment of art.

41:09.39
Aaron
And ah think it's more like, how does this speak to me or why does this speak to me? Someone that's into New York City fashion might not really love your documentaries. doesn't speak to them.

41:21.36
Aaron
It's not their thing.

41:21.69
Seth Macey
How dare they?

41:21.77
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah.

41:22.88
Aaron
I know, but it's just true and they might pass it by, but there is that person that we will be really interested at the time and it will hit really hard and then it'll be a part of their, their framework for life.

41:23.59
Kyle Dudgeon
I know it's ridiculous.

41:36.01
Aaron
You know? So it's, I think music is a great example of like, not everyone loves everything yet. They still do it.

41:45.01
Seth Macey
You said you would have had a conversation maybe with 10 years ago, Kyle, what would you say?

41:52.49
Kyle Dudgeon
Which perspective am I talking from this one?

41:55.50
Seth Macey
Sure.

41:55.74
Kyle Dudgeon
Looking back. Yeah, that's a, I mean, classic.

41:59.48
Seth Macey
Are there anything? Yeah. Are there anything she would say I know it's almost like a cliche interview question now, but it's a good one.

42:03.20
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah.

42:04.70
Seth Macey
I mean, it's.

42:07.03
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah.

42:09.53
Kyle Dudgeon
I don't know, because i in some ways I wake up and I am 10 years ago, Kyle, right? Like, well, maybe one day I'll be able to know.

42:13.52
Seth Macey
Oh, yeah.

42:16.19
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah, it's tough, right? I mean, you could say ah the cliche thing of like, yep, keep your head down, keep working, you know?

42:22.78
Seth Macey
Right.

42:23.49
Kyle Dudgeon
And um i don't know, just like enjoy it Enjoy the process, right? Like,

42:31.67
Seth Macey
Yeah.

42:31.84
Kyle Dudgeon
Again, I want to be 70 years old and not know what I did or what I wanted to do for my whole life. Like that's something I just keep going back to. um But yeah.

42:41.42
Seth Macey
Yeah. um To take the pressure off you entirely here in the spotlight. I think for me, it's been, I would say have more fun, man.

42:53.37
Kyle Dudgeon
Hmm.

42:54.96
Seth Macey
Have more fun and follow.

42:58.63
Seth Macey
Follow the things that bring you joy. um But also realize there's still things you need to show up for that you may not love all the time.

43:10.35
Seth Macey
Like there's some days where I don't want to be taking pictures um and accepting that that's kind of a normal part of the ebb and flow of being a creator. I mean, you can't love something 100% all the time. Maybe you can. I've never experienced that, even with things that I hold dearly to my heart.

43:26.99
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

43:28.41
Seth Macey
Not including people. Haley, you're listening, love you all the time. She listens to the podcast. um But it's true. Like you can't.

43:40.97
Seth Macey
yeah I feel like even like showing up to the gym, if somebody loves going to the gym, there's just some days where you don't want to be there. But I think just going is helpful. Knowing that.

43:50.37
Seth Macey
e yeah I'm here for the long ride, right? I'm zooming out, not so much focusing on day-to-day.

44:00.65
Seth Macey
um ah do want to ask you what you would attribute or what attribute of yours you would most credit with being able to consistently put out films that's great work, whether it's like a soft skill of yours or Perhaps I pressure you put on yourself as a double-edged sword in a good and maybe negative way.

44:24.06
Seth Macey
Or if there's something else that comes to mind that you feel is something inherent to you that really helps you execute projects.

44:34.33
Kyle Dudgeon
um I think so my films so thus far have been like like any film like largely like people focused and that's something I think that I've always been good at is like not just like connecting with people on deeper levels, um but like forming trust in a way.

45:01.37
Kyle Dudgeon
um I'll give you a good example. i just, I was down in in Patagonia last year um for a couple months. working on a project that I got a little bit of funding for about a good friend of mine's father.

45:12.42
Kyle Dudgeon
um who's, he's the leading expert, one of them in the world on this bird called the Andean condor. And I had this idea going in to like, tell that story.

45:19.56
Seth Macey
Wow.

45:25.72
Kyle Dudgeon
And we had like some, some plans to so go to these old places that he had been and like, look for specific species and, kind of tell the history of how his work came to be. But we, Lorenzo and I, we just got very close and he's this, you know, mid seventies guy from Argentina is incredible life history. but We, uh, and very personable is like, I'm so grateful to all of them for that, that whole experience, but we got very close and, you know, there was a point there, like midway through that, that whole trip down that,

45:59.98
Kyle Dudgeon
He and I just, we sat down together, we were drinking mate and we talked for two hours about his life history and how complex it was and how he lived through a political dictatorship in Argentina.

46:12.53
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

46:12.91
Kyle Dudgeon
And watched like half of his cohort in veterinary school just like vanish from the earth due to this like this political dictatorship.

46:22.57
Seth Macey
Whoa. wella

46:23.63
Kyle Dudgeon
And they're like we were both crying. And this is a guy like his daughter told me she's never seen him in his life cry. feel like... so i feel like one of my biggest motivators in the work that I do and will continue to do is like taking these, these people and like, you know, telling their story in the truest way in an emotional way.

46:51.32
Kyle Dudgeon
um yeah, I could probably riff on that a little more, but, um, it's it's It's these human stories, especially like these older generations that aren't going to be here as long as we are.

47:04.87
Kyle Dudgeon
Gosh, I'm surrounded by so many just wonderful people that are are scientists.

47:07.22
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

47:11.50
Kyle Dudgeon
you know and like this This one particular friend of mine, he's again 74 years old. He studied birds of prey his whole life. and you wouldn't know him from Adam, right? Like walking around the grocery store, but he is the reason that we have like 30 years plus of research here in the Western, like 40, 50 years in the Western US on like golden eagle populations and how they migrate through this part of Montana and where they go. And there's this standardized practice that he helped like build up here at all these different sites and

47:46.94
Kyle Dudgeon
And like, going to try and make a documentary about that, you know, and, and be able to watch it forever and have people be able to watch it forever and just like learn, you know, about the people walking around us constantly, like all their stories and, um, how important they all are to tell, you know, that's, that's my biggest motivator, I think.

48:14.40
Seth Macey
Yeah.

48:14.48
Aaron
That's great.

48:14.52
Seth Macey
and

48:14.91
Aaron
Yeah.

48:15.73
Seth Macey
And skill.

48:17.91
Kyle Dudgeon
Oh, thank you.

48:18.47
Aaron
Yeah.

48:20.33
Seth Macey
but By the sounds of it, you know.

48:20.36
Kyle Dudgeon
Okay.

48:22.00
Aaron
hi

48:22.23
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah. I would never attribute that as a skill to myself being my, my self critic, you know, um, right.

48:28.55
Seth Macey
Wow. At least you have humility. Another skill.

48:31.83
Aaron
another skill.

48:31.86
Kyle Dudgeon
Too much.

48:33.30
Seth Macey
Should we keep embarrassing you

48:33.56
Aaron
sure Yeah.

48:34.83
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah. i Keep going. Make me uncomfortable.

48:36.97
Seth Macey
Yeah. Yeah. um

48:42.31
Seth Macey
I can't remember if we touched on this during the, ah maybe we did at the beginning. You said you'd like being a filmmaker to be full time.

48:51.26
Seth Macey
ah Is there anything more that you're hoping to make of this life as a creator, as a human? um Do you have plans or are you just trying to create doors and walk through them as they open?

49:02.63
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah, i think I think just kind of go with the flow, right? and um My biggest goals right now are are that. It's just... do this work full time.

49:13.57
Kyle Dudgeon
Be proud to say, Hey, I'm a filmmaker. I'm a photographer. I'm a storyteller. I'm a conservationist. Um, I had a really, really fun, productive meeting with these folks ah probably about a month ago now, kind of related to this bear film and some of the work they're doing down south on on black bears and pant Florida Panthers and all this. And um the one gentleman who's kind of the head of this nonprofit, he he's making these documentary films about things like Florida Panthers. and And he said, somebody asked him like, oh, aren't you worried? There's like too much competition in that.

49:51.13
Kyle Dudgeon
And he's like, no, because around every corner, there's another story like waiting to be told, like there aren't enough of us, you know, and that really helped me because.

50:06.23
Kyle Dudgeon
He's right. There aren't enough. and And how many different stories could you tell about grizzly bears if you don't just like tell it in a blue chip nature sequence, but you pick somebody who's had like a different experience with a grizzly bear throughout their life?

50:19.48
Kyle Dudgeon
Right? How many different angles are there? Like an infinite amount. And maybe that's just in Montana. Then you have like all of Canada, you have Alaska, you have Europe. Like just so I think getting out of the, the,

50:36.58
Kyle Dudgeon
expanding your mind around like it's not just one subject it's like a giant web of like all these different people and things and places that have interacted with that subject and think about all the the opportunity for story there is there

50:47.11
Aaron
Yeah.

50:49.60
Aaron
Yeah, that's your that's your CFG chord analogy right there.

50:49.60
Seth Macey
yeah

50:53.37
Aaron
like Like it's this it's the same general subject, ah but there's so many different melodies. They can place on top of it, tone, sound, rhythm, speed, you know, and you you can make your own your own sequence there for sure.

51:09.57
Kyle Dudgeon
Right.

51:10.39
Seth Macey
It's nice knowing that stories are essentially limitless.

51:15.67
Seth Macey
I've never thought about that. Thank you for that.

51:17.80
Aaron
Yeah.

51:20.97
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah.

51:21.05
Seth Macey
You

51:22.04
Kyle Dudgeon
and Every experience is ah is a story, right? Me going to the grocery store today was a story because there were so many college kids that I just wanted to drive right now. but I can't say that on the podcast.

51:32.13
Aaron
yeah

51:32.95
Seth Macey
just can't do it.

51:34.36
Kyle Dudgeon
Cut, cut, cut. No. Yeah.

51:35.44
Seth Macey
just can't do it

51:35.70
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

51:36.89
Kyle Dudgeon
Right.

51:37.53
Aaron
You can think it.

51:37.88
Kyle Dudgeon
No.

51:38.59
Aaron
i have but I have a personal question about um like Yellowstone and the greater area. um How long have you been there?

51:47.66
Kyle Dudgeon
This is year seven.

51:49.47
Aaron
You're seven. So how has it changed in seven years through –

51:50.51
Kyle Dudgeon
Mm-hmm.

51:53.71
Kyle Dudgeon
Man.

51:54.46
Aaron
before COVID, after COVID, now, I have to be honest, like it, it since I started photography and wildlife photography, it was always, a like got to get out there. I have not been there.

52:04.84
Aaron
And then slowly seeing things, there is a huge hesitation in terms of like, i don't know if I want to deal with that.

52:04.95
Kyle Dudgeon
Mm-hmm.

52:12.26
Aaron
and And that might be the perception of people just posting the popular spots and the bear jams and the bad behavior, if you will. And just sort of, kind of looks messy.

52:22.28
Seth Macey
Thank

52:25.36
Aaron
And I know there's lots of areas and spots that probably aren't, but I'm just curious the the evolution in seven years of that national park.

52:35.23
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah. There's this funny like concept that always comes up in conversation in places like Montana, but especially of like, oh, how long have you been here?

52:41.28
Aaron
Hmm.

52:45.71
Kyle Dudgeon
And there's somebody always willing to be like, Yep, I've been here 30 years or I've been here 40 years. And I remember when 19th down Bozeman was gravel road and all the things.

52:56.12
Kyle Dudgeon
And it's like, great. So that was your experience.

52:58.37
Aaron
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

52:58.62
Kyle Dudgeon
And of course, the further you go back, like the quicker things have changed. um But in seven years, it's changed quite a bit. And a lot of that has probably been personal change and how I perceive the place and like my interactions with it.

53:15.72
Kyle Dudgeon
But there's no denying that like right now we're experiencing what's probably going to be the busiest September on record for Yeltsin Park based on hotel reservations and entry tickets and all that stuff.

53:26.10
Kyle Dudgeon
And it feels that way being out there every, every day.

53:28.53
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

53:30.59
Kyle Dudgeon
yeah. You know, yeah Yellowstone had a ah huge like influence when I was thinking about moving here. ah just kind of I wrote a little piece about this on my Substack um recently.

53:44.16
Kyle Dudgeon
um ah about like When I was a field technician traveling across Montana serving birds, that's how I got out here. It's like an internship in like midway through college. Um, I would work like 14 days in a row so I could have five days off in a row and drive to Yellowstone and camp there and drive around the Northern range or wherever and, and photograph the bears and the wolves and the birds and all that.

54:09.02
Kyle Dudgeon
And i think my memory is pretty good that it was not busy. Like you'd find a roadside black bear and you'd have it yourself kind of deal, you know?

54:20.61
Kyle Dudgeon
And now those experiences are a lot harder to get. um i think the Yellowstone visitor has changed in the last six, seven years just based on how everybody now has a camera. Because that changes like a bear jam.

54:40.29
Kyle Dudgeon
Because now you don't have somebody going like, wow, honey, a bear. That's cool. Let's keep going.

54:44.25
Aaron
yeah

54:44.42
Kyle Dudgeon
you have pull over, can't get off the road. Oh, well leave my car right in traffic and leave it, you know, like flashers on run across the road with your camera, try and get your shot. Like, so it's, it's definitely changed, but like all that being said, and I could say a lot more come like it is The reason those opportunities exist is because Yellowstone is a one of a kind place, at least in the lower 48, you know?

55:12.22
Kyle Dudgeon
you know um

55:17.09
Kyle Dudgeon
there's There's literally no place else in the world where you can just like drive your car not that far from a major airport. you know I'm catching direct flights back home to New York into Bozeman, Montana now.

55:28.85
Aaron
Yeah.

55:29.04
Kyle Dudgeon
and you know You drive 90 minutes or two hours or whatever and you're like parking and looking at a wild wolf. and you know what Sometimes you can get a picture of it. like

55:37.86
Aaron
yeah

55:38.57
Kyle Dudgeon
That's pretty freaking cool. Yeah. um I think, you know, it's, it is a double edged sword and like, there's so many people coming, there's so many photographers, but like the best thing for wolves and the best thing for grizzly bears and the best thing for bison is like hundreds or thousands of people coming each year to take pictures of them and post about it online, you know?

56:03.70
Aaron
Yeah, that's true.

56:05.15
Kyle Dudgeon
especially the predators, man. Like, you know, we, gosh, we're at a really tricky time in the world, not just here, like everywhere. Like we're we're we're going backwards on our perceptions of of predators and we shouldn't be, right?

56:21.70
Kyle Dudgeon
Like all the science exists, but a lot of it's getting thrown out the window. And it's like, no, we we want people to be here and like photographing grizzly bears and know that there's like an economic engine that is created by bears and wolves in Yellowstone, you know, that like employs me, it employs hundreds of other guide companies. It's pumping millions of dollars into local economies. Every like, that's a big deal, you know?

56:48.56
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

56:48.63
Kyle Dudgeon
and and gosh, I just love that you brought this up because I think about it so much, but Yellowstone is 2.2 million acres. Experts believe the ecosystem is some 20 million acres.

57:01.06
Kyle Dudgeon
Right? All that chaos that you see, all this cell phone videos, the guy, I just saw the video again yesterday, the guy at like Old Faithful area. He's just like dancing with a bison, like 10 feet away from him.

57:13.77
Kyle Dudgeon
Like just nuts. This dude with dreadlocks. And he's just like, it's just so awesome. Like not awesome, illegal, but kind of awesome.

57:20.59
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

57:21.52
Kyle Dudgeon
Right? All that stuff is happening. along like the 200 miles of roads that we have built through this park. You walk over like one hill and like that whole experience changes and you're not in a human landscape anymore, you know?

57:34.67
Aaron
yeah

57:37.88
Aaron
yeah

57:38.67
Kyle Dudgeon
And, and if you have the opportunity and your legs work well and you can carry a heavy pack, walk over that hill for five days and go get your, your backcountry campsites and like be in the wilderness that is Yellowstone.

57:51.59
Kyle Dudgeon
you know, cause it is absolutely incredible that what we have here.

57:52.41
Aaron
yeah

57:56.64
Kyle Dudgeon
And, uh, that is what at the end of the day, like I am inspired by, and it's why I've done this job for, for five years and and might for longer, you know, because we're just like in the chaos, we're in the hustle bustle on the road corridor, but just beyond it is like, it's, it's paradise. The world just feels old there.

58:19.66
Aaron
Well said. That's awesome.

58:20.68
Seth Macey
Very well said. Kyle, thanks for joining us today, man. Where can people check out your films that are have already been out or coming out or um maybe take up your guiding services? there anything we can link?

58:33.98
Kyle Dudgeon
Um, best way to get in touch is probably Instagram. My website's linked through there. um like, we all are. I'm, I'm constantly undergoing like, um, website, uh, template changes and all that stuff. So my films aren't even on there right now, which is so dumb.

58:50.28
Kyle Dudgeon
Uh, but YouTube, uh, Kyle doesn't creative. I got a couple of hundred subscribers there. I know it's pretty big deal, but that, and, uh, yeah, Instagram, Instagram, YouTube, that's where my, my stuff is best way to find out what's going on and, and all that.

59:07.06
Seth Macey
Awesome.

59:07.03
Kyle Dudgeon
But

59:07.22
Seth Macey
Well, links to all that are in the episode description, everybody. Kyle, thank you, man. And thank you, Slater, for recommending you.

59:13.27
Kyle Dudgeon
yeah.

59:13.37
Aaron
Yeah.

59:13.39
Seth Macey
All

59:13.51
Kyle Dudgeon
Yeah.

59:13.76
Aaron
care.

59:13.79
Kyle Dudgeon
Thank you guys. Thanks Slater. And yeah, really appreciate this conversation.

59:17.53
Seth Macey
right. Till next time.

59:18.70
Aaron
take care

59:18.76
Kyle Dudgeon
All right.