Nicki

Hello and welcome to the Raising Wildlings Podcast. I'm your host, Nikki Farrell. We would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land in which this podcast is recorded, the Kabi Kabi and Gubby Gubby people. We honour their song lines and storylines and pay our respects to the elders past, present, and emerging. We'd also like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which you are listening to this episode today.

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to Raising Wildlings, a podcast about parenting, alternative education, and stepping into the wilderness, however that looks, with your family.

Nicki

Each week we'll be interviewing experts that truly inspire us to answer your parenting and education questions. We'll also be sharing stories from some incredible families that took the leap and are taking the road less travel.

SPEAKER_00

We're your hosts Vicky and Nicki from Wildlings Forest School. Pop in your headphones, settle in, and join us on this next adventure.

Nicki

Today we're chatting to Jill Howard, early childhood teacher, educational change maker, storyteller, and mother to three bright, beautiful, and wild boys. Having worked in alternative Reggio-inspired and nature-based schools in Perth, here in Australia, Jill began to explore ways to practice conscious education, an approach to learning that requires getting curious with what we're doing in our own educational settings and always asking why. Jill created Bornwise in 2017 as a grassroots education space, a place to explore learning beyond the classroom. Since then, Bournewise has grown to offer classes, courses, and consults to people of all ages and ultimately aims to inspire families to revolutionize education from their own backyards. Speaking of education from our own backyard, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about homeschooling before we start. It's January here in Queensland, which means it's meant to be the start of the school year here, but the school year has been delayed by two weeks due to the current surge in COVID cases. Essentially, the government has opened up the borders and businesses but delayed schooling for two weeks. And this has caused a lot of parents to rethink sending their children to school. And I guess from the emails that we're getting and the talks that I've been giving this week to concerned parents, I just wanted to come on here and remind people that don't forget the power that you have. And don't forget that the hardest part of choosing to homeschool is just making the decision. And from there it's a matter of finding your people, which is just joining classes and courses and programs until you find them. And when you found those people that will hold you and love you and be your village, that homeschooling is life-changing, not just for your children but for your family as well. Remember that all the information is free and online. You know, there's free homeschooling websites, there's free podcasts, there's books that you can get from the library, and there's so many people that are happy to help you on your journey. But if you would like a more personalized step-by-step walkthrough how to start homeschooling, then don't forget that we do have our online intro to homeschooling course on our website at wildlingsforestschool.com. It's aimed for those of you who are thinking about homeschooling but maybe not yet to take the leap, or have decided to start homeschooling but don't know where to start and have a bunch of questions. We go through all the most commonly answered questions from how your child will get into university, how they'll learn to read, how to keep your own sanity as a parent right through to uh reporting and registration. All I can say is that personally it's the best thing we have ever done for our family. Yes, we're both teachers, but we unschool, we don't teach our children. And I think if you could see the amount of teachers that homeschool, then perhaps you'd worry about us being the canaries in the coal mine and why so many teachers don't put their children in school. I'll leave it there. So now let's get chatting to Jill. Hello and welcome to the show, Jill. How are you this morning?

SPEAKER_01

I'm really great this morning. I'm excited to be chatting to you.

Nicki

Excellent. I've been really excited to chat to you. I was I was just saying to Jill just before we started how sometimes you can just look at a website and read somebody's story and go, oh, I wish we could be friends. I would love to come and visit. And it's just so nice to know that there are educators and guides and teachers around Australia doing their thing and creating these opportunities for children. So let's start with you telling us all about a bit of your backstory and how Bornwise came about.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, thank you. It's and it's always interesting to kind of reflect on this question when I'm asked because I I feel like I never quite answer it in the same way. So um, you know, because I guess I see Bornwise very much as I guess it's an space that I created in my life to kind of really um embody my beliefs around education, I think. You know, I've I've been very passionate about, I think I was born passionate about education and learning. I think it's just my thing, you know, even as a little child, I couldn't wait to get to school. Like I just I I love being in places of learning. I love visiting universities. When I used to travel, I would often go to churches and universities is where I would end up visiting in different countries. So there's just something about learning that is is very enriching and also interesting to me. So, you know, I became a teacher, um, you know, did all the, went to uni, did it, did it all in the the usual way, traveled a bit, taught in different countries, but then ended up ultimately coming back to to Perth and working mostly in like nature-based alternative regio style schools and and loved it. You know, I have a deep um kind of love for Regio-inspired teaching practices. It's it's I'm I'm interested in all the different philosophies, but something about Regio, there's a little bit of that eclecticness that just really works for me. And I found myself teaching at a school here in WA, which we're really lucky to have Ballpark Community School, which is was an extraordinary, yeah, it was an extraordinary place to work in. And the the teachers there are just I mean, they're so passionate about what they do. And I learned a lot from that school. And um, the woman who created it, it just, you know, it's just quite an amazing place. It was described when I first was going to work there, I asked a friend, you know, who had previously worked there, how she would describe working at Bowl Park. And she said it's like a like being inside a rainbow.

Nicki

Oh gosh. If everyone could describe their place of education like that, wouldn't the world be a better place?

SPEAKER_01

Wouldn't it? You know, and and so as soon as she said that, I thought, oh, you know, definitely I need I need to work here. So I went and worked there for a few years and I I did really enjoy it. But then on the flip side of that, you know, I have um, I had two young sons at the time. Now I have three young sons. And what I was finding really difficult was just juggling my life as a teacher and my life as a parent and my views about education as well. Started to probably expand just to, I think, from a curious space of just trying to see, well, how does education look in different settings? And that that came more from like a bit of a inner reflection into to my practice as a teacher, as in, is this the only place I can teach? Like to be a teacher, do I must I teach in a school? You know, and and those sort of things started ticking away my mind mostly because I just needed to create balance in my life as a human. Um and so I went on maternity leave with my third son and assumed I'd end up back, you know, teaching. But in that time, in that beautiful time where you kind of have that time and space where you've got a newborn and you're you're you know up in all hours and you're operating on a different time system to the rest of the world, you know, it was that creativity is sparked. And I just started to think, I wonder if I could just teach in a different way, somewhere else. And I just got really experimental with it and started with like one or two little classes a week, which were very much around nature, play-based, early childhood learning. But I I did them in yoga studios and I did one at a local farm. I wanted to see how education looked in different spaces because Reggio is very much about that. It's very, you know, a lot about place-based and um education. So I started to think, well, what would a school look like if it was inside a yoga studio? And then what would a school look like if it was on an organic farm? You know, and realizing that the the land and the space we're in has something, you know, to teach as well. Yes. And me being guided by that. So that's how Bornwise started. It was quite experimental, really.

Nicki

I love that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and it's just grown. I guess that that was about four, four years ago. Yeah, my my youngest is coming up to five now. So it's kind of been his life, I guess, as well. Bornwise has is run parallel to my pregnancy with him. And it's just, it's been an interesting journey, and now it's grown to, I guess, you know, we've got a three-day program, and I'm it doesn't look how it looked at the start in the sense that I thought, you know, people would sign up for a term, do a program, and then move on. But, you know, families have stayed. So some of those families I was teaching back then when the children were two or three are now seven or eight and they're still in the program. And that's something I didn't expect, you know. So that's I feel like something I learned a lot from, you know, we were just talking about boundaries before this call. But it um, and I know how important boundaries are, but also kind of being a little bit flexible with them because I think when I was trying to put hard age categories around my work, and then it just wasn't work, you know, it was kind of like I can do that all I like, but it doesn't fit the children and the families, then it's not going to work.

Nicki

Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

Nicki

So we do the same thing, you know. Kim Nature Play Group is from zero to three. Well, what about my four-year-old and a my four-year-old and their twins? It's oh well, you can come and then suddenly you can come to and suddenly it's zero to six or six plus.

SPEAKER_01

Which I love that. I love that flexibility in you as well, because I think that's what um education is asking us uh to to do. It's sort of can we can we look at um being a bit more expansive with flexibility in the way we choose to explore education?

Nicki

Yes, I think so too. So, what does quote unquote education look like at Bournewise? You said you have a three-day program. Let's break it down to you know, not the philosophy so much at the moment, but um what programs are you running this year?

SPEAKER_01

Um, so I run a this year, it is changing a little bit. So up until this year, I've been running two days a week as a um homeschool drop and leave program on Tuesdays and Thursdays. And then Wednesday was like a family playgroup day, you know, so it was a little bit more um open with the sort of parents stayed. It was as much about offering support and community to the, you know, parents, mums in particular, because it was mostly mothers who was who were there and their little babies, you know, so the babies were there and the older siblings. And um, I'm really glad for running that program on a Wednesday because what that has managed, like enabled me to do is build up really solid relationships with the families and the children, so that then when the children grow into being ready for a drop and leave program, that they're they're so comfortable with me and I'm so comfortable with them that drop and leave has been a non-issue, you know. And having worked in pre-Kindi for a long time in systems, I mean, we could spend our whole first year just on the drop and leave, you know, just getting people okay with that.

Nicki

It's a big transition. I think we really it's one thing I get really cross at, and this is nothing to do with teachers, it's the again, it's a system of just expecting all children to be able to drop and leave and be okay with it. Like you said, it can take a year or two or more, and some children may be really okay with it even until they hit high school. But yes, normalizing that some children aren't going to be okay at four and a half to be dropped somewhere. And that's okay, and it's normal, and to not make parents feel guilty about that. So that's that's a beautiful way to for a beautiful transition to do it like that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's again been intra because I didn't sort of set out with that deliberate intention, but just from me kind of pulling back and watching, going, oh, hang on. I've just had, you know, 10 children dropped off and no issues. You know, you can pull everyone that every child's walked in comfortably and confidently. And I don't think it's anything, you know, I haven't just done something amazing that I wasn't doing in the classroom. You know, I still try to be very opening and relationship space in the classroom, but I think, you know, relationships actually actually take organic real time and space. And, you know, even though we want to put that um emphasis on it in the classroom without that genuine time and space and authentic authentic relationships, children know the difference, like don't they? They don't care that what's on our plan on our piece of paper. They're just operating on that. You know, exactly. Exactly. So that's been a beautiful reflection for me. And I think ultimately that's what Bornwise is is doing for me. It's teaching me how to um expand the way I see possibilities around learning.

Nicki

Let's talk about that. Let's talk about education as learning beyond the boundaries of school. What if you learned as a teacher who's come from the system and now running your own education business essentially? What are the differences that you see or that you've taken from your your time in Bournemouth?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's been a beautiful journey, actually, for me as a person, just to reflect on the difference between school and learning, I think. I think I've learned a lot. And you know, being a teacher who's, you know, um gone and got the degree to be a teacher, you know, you learn that this is what it looks like. This is what education looks like. This is the only way education.

Nicki

This is what we're taught. This is the only way to teach and to learn.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And you might, you know, there's different philosophies that are included within that um, you know, degree where we we touch upon them at least, and you know, we're open to the possibility of, oh, well, maybe it's a Montessori school or a Steiner school or a Reggio-inspired school or whatever. But they they still operate under these boundaries of school. And that, I think, for me, there's this um the a phrase that wrote goes through my head. I don't even know if I I made this up or I heard it somewhere, but I I probably heard it somewhere was to take the roof off learning and remove the boundaries of school. And for me, that was it's all about time and space, I think, of this kind of acknowledgement that we humans don't learn just between, you know, 855 and 310 or whatever that time frame is that we've put on it. It's it's been such a um kind of mind-blowing experience for me to just to expand the way I see learning. And I actually feel like there's potential to remove the stress of front of teachers and the stress of the school system if we started to go, hey, kids are learning when they're asleep. You know, it's it's like even in dreams. Learning at the breakfast table, learning in the car on the way to school. And once we start to see learning in all the like corners of our day, I feel like, then we suddenly this pressure and emphasis to learn all we need to know between, you know, lunch break and recess. And it it feels to me that there's potential to really um unlock a lot of stress and anxiety around children not learning when we look at, well, what are they actually learning? What are they learning from their parents? What are they learning from the world, you know, without us even realizing it. So it's completely, I think, changed my view of not just school, but what I think my role as a teacher is as well.

Nicki

And I love that reflective teaching practice that you've continued. And, you know, granted, that is something we do get taught to do at uni, but I don't think that's just a university thing. I think the curious people in the world are always reflective and they're trying to be self-aware. And we are lifelong learners. And I think that's the biggest thing that I'm taking from our business is that children are innately capable and they are innately curious if we don't stomp it out of them, and they will be lifelong learners. So why this time pressure bomb of you know, from five to 17 years of age, you must learn all the things, and then suddenly, magically, what we don't learn anything anymore. Yeah. They learn it all in this time frame because our brains still learn and we still take things on, and we learn more sometimes because we actually get the choice to follow those true interests and passions.

SPEAKER_01

So why the pressure? I'm not sure, and I think that's fascinating because then it's it's if I was to look back at, you know, me at 17 and then think, okay, well, I knew everything I needed to know about the world at 17. Um, you know, I know how untrue that is, you know, and um I'm 44 now and I expect that like there's still more that I don't know than that I do.

Nicki

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Um, but our unlearning is so valuable as well. But again, it's not something we're kind of taught to maybe even look at. I I was lucky, I think, when I was first out of uni, I ended up teaching at a again a Regio-inspired uh early childhood center. And the the director there just sort of took it upon it herself. She was just one of these people that are in the world that are always there to to change things up and to just challenge. And she took it upon herself to just completely unravel and question everything that I just learned at uni.

Nicki

And how was he for you though that first year?

SPEAKER_01

I was so lucky. I at the time, I think it took me a long time to realize I was lucky. I I found it I found it very difficult at first, but there was something intuitively inside of me that's like you need to listen to this woman. Even it's hard work and it's not making your life easy right now, but you need to listen to this woman.

Nicki

Amazing. Yeah, those people sometimes, like you said, they get sent to unravel us, I think. And if if we can go with the flow and take what we need from it, I think, gosh, the the learning, again, the learning, the education, not the schooling. Yes, more from. Yeah, so much. Yeah, so much. Yeah. So let's talk about then what education might look like in the future, then. If we could take the roof off of schools and schooling, what what are some of the things you'd love to see change?

SPEAKER_01

I think what I would love to see change is maybe, you know, a more of a community approach to education where there's a little bit more skill sharing, a little bit more acknowledgement of different uh gifts and also different uh, I'm not gonna say weaknesses, different challenges, and that we learn as much from those challenges as the gifts. I I think, I mean, I often use the phrase conscious education, and I I use that purely to, I think, as a self-reminder, to be constantly bringing an awareness to what we're doing and why in our in our learning environments. And I would like to see more of that, I think, in the future, because you know, we all we all know how quickly the world's changing now. You know, it's hard to deny that how fast things have changed, especially in the last couple of years. And I we've probably all heard those facts being thrown around now that, like, you know, what is it, like 65% of the jobs our children will do don't exist yet, or some, you know, they've been saying that for a while now. Like I've been hearing that um thought it sort of phrase for a while. So if that's true and the jobs don't, we don't know what our children are going to be doing, I think we need to reflect on well, what what is the point of school? What what do we need to provide for our children? What values do we want them to carry into the future? Because because some of that old way of doing things where we're kind of job preparation is is maybe is just so obsolete now.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That how can we bring changes into school to I think for me the shift is is acknowledging, like I said before, that maybe we need to take some of the emphasis off school and just make it a safe place for children to be while adults go out in the world and get on with adulting. And then the children will grow up in a world where they feel safe and they feel supported and they feel inspired. And then I think they'll they'll be just, you know, the the world will be different and the world will be new and but. hopefully they'll be the sort of people that can take what life's offering them and and go from there. Do you know what I mean? I I think we need to drop the the whole crystal ball notion of being able to see into the future and therefore we need the children to be like this. I think it's just, well, how can we help them right now? You know, how can we make school feel really safe for them? I know that's quite simple.

Nicki

It is, but it's not because do children feel safe with the coercion that there is in schooling? You know, you have to do this or you stay in at lunchtime. If you don't get this grade, you'll need to go and do this and go to remedial lessons. Are schools a safe place for children? It could possibly be the very first question we need to take take the roof off of as I think no matter how good you are as a teacher and how kind and how much you focus on relationships, there's still this level of of authoritarianism and and power as a teacher that in the systems where we're expecting grades and performance, I don't know that we can change. I don't know that until we get rid of grading, this is my personal opinion, you know, the grading system and and the coercion behind getting children to perform and do things that they don't want to do. I don't know how you can truly feel safe.

SPEAKER_01

But um I hundred percent I mean I agree with you and I I think that's ultimately what for the Bornwise children and families my you sort of foundation there is is safety. Like how can I make the families and the children feel safe and also again it's simple but and I I always feel really drawn to just make people feel good about themselves. You know because and that's not to say that I don't think children should experience sort of failure and mistakes because I really strongly believe they do but how can you feel good about yourself anyway and I think that solid foundation means whatever life's going to be like in 20 years because again we can't predict it you're just giving them this solid foundation to to be in the world and be in life and and make decisions and and choose jobs and you know acknowledge they're probably not going to be in the same job for 50 years. I mean people just don't do that really anymore. Well I don't think so maybe people do but you know so I I feel like a little bit of a flip side of like just flipping education maybe upside down and going let's not worry so much about the future what do these kids need right now and then the future will take care of the future so I I believe from um reading about Bornwise that one of the like you said a feeling of safety and and that wellbeing and connection as some of the things that you believe our children and I 100% concur if if that's you know correct me if I'm wrong you believe children need. So how do you foster that at Bornwise and and on flowing on from that how could we um follow that on in mainstream schools as well yeah and I'm so interested in that as well because I I'm aware that Bornwise kind of operates in this little pocket of the world that it's quite small. You know we work for a small community small community that we serve I guess and I love it but I I do want to see this stuff in the mainstream as well because I'm a big believer in even public school education. You know what I mean I grew up that way. I grew up believing and in that and that's one thing that I I can sometimes get a little bit unsure of with Bournewise because I don't want it to be exclusive. I don't want only a certain sort of person to be able to afford to come to Bournewise. I don't you know I think society as a whole as a collective as a culture we need these things to be for the majority not for the few yeah the equity in education is infuriating.

Nicki

It's one of the things that makes me rage so how do we achieve it?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah I I feel for like my my way I guess and that's just one way I think there'd be many ways of doing this I feel inspired to to just to just speak as as much as I can really to to be really kind of big with my messaging and you know maybe get into schools but I think it's about educating some of the teachers and just I think just being loud. I I think what you guys are doing with your you know the fact that everything's so nature based and you have these similar values in the well-being and you know people are seeing this stuff like people are seeing it in the world educators are seeing it in the world and they know intuitively that it's it's something we all need. So I I just think as more of us come together through these conversations and you know like we said just before like being able to connect through technology and realize that you know you guys are offering this and I'm doing my thing and there's many other amazing things happening here in Perth as there are around Australia and just going well how can we all collaborate maybe a little bit more so we're not all these like you know individual lights floating kind of far from each other but how do we like kind of link up a little bit so people kind of get caught in that in the link of our light you know yeah yeah and I think like you said it's great to be um I I guess like these these little beacons outside of the system but the inequity and you know we the one of the ways that we tackle that at Wildlings is is we offer an equity discount for PIP and LGBTQIA and single caregivers and we offer community tickets as well but it's taken us four well five it's our fifth birthday this uh next week actually oh wow yeah um but that's taken us that long to build our business up to the point where we can give back and that's still only for children that are outside of the system still you know like our homeschool programs or it's it's the preschool years.

Nicki

So how do we as a group get together and say right how can we get together and start bringing these ideas into schools and and we are you know we're doing we've got PDs this week with schools and whatnot but it still doesn't seem to be catching and no it's not teachers because I know they want it. The feedback that we get is I get like you said they intuitively know that this is good for themselves and for children. So it it comes back to the system again.

SPEAKER_01

So how do we other than us all becoming politicians which I have thought about I've thought about it I don't know how I'd go I don't know how yeah I'm probably not organised enough but yeah I think we're too honest.

Nicki

I don't think we can be this honest and be politicians.

SPEAKER_01

Which is a shame but yeah I I don't I think that's that I think is one of the best questions and I think we just need to keep asking ourselves that all the time so we we don't we don't forget that that question is there because it's kind of easy to just once you've stepped out of the system to stay outside of it and you know your own little bubble which you know has its merits. Like it definitely has its merits and a lot of the families I work with tend to sit outside that system anyway so they're living very interesting kind of different lifestyles. But yeah for me as a person I I feel like I I want to see more of this in our mainstream education as well. And um I don't know like will we be able to change it or will it eventually just change itself?

Nicki

I I I don't know that the situation of the world at the moment with what coronavirus has done to our systems is interesting to me because sometimes maybe it's not a human who's going to come around and change these right like quite an idea seriously isn't it because it is collapsing and it's really shining a beacon on um how fragile the system is I think too and how much of a burden our educators carry and aren't now coping and shouldn't have to cope with the pressures that are put in them. But again it's not just the education system it's the fact that in our economy we need two generally need two parents working to cover mortgages and fees and that wasn't the case exactly you know 40 years ago that you could have one parent working and one stay at home and afford to pay the rent and the mortgage. So it feels like we need a system collapse but I'd love to not get to the collapse point of love love for somehow maybe it's parents being the squeaky wheels at their schools and saying you know what this pandemic is a shit fight like excuse the French but we are all not coping. I don't care about the Nat Plan tests I don't care about their results please can we bring in Bornwise to do some meditation like I just want my children to be well.

SPEAKER_01

I want them to be well yeah it's I mean and maybe that it it it is those the parents who will come on board and carry those really powerful messages as well because you know I speak to families a lot who you know when you're just sort of mentioning lifestyle there who would love to homeschool but you know they they need two incomes so that they need two parents to go to work. So their reality is is choosing school because again it comes back to that thing for me I'd love to just have schools as a place where it's safe for children to be so parents can do what they need to do. You know it'd be great wouldn't it to just know that your child is is somewhere feeling loved and supported by um their community I feel like it's a lot about us coming back to that notion of community and you know one of those beautiful reggio philosophies of that it's the community's responsibility to like educate a child. Yes. You know, instead of it it we've become a culture that's very but my child and my my family and my house and my job where maybe we need to just be shifting it to a little bit well you know recognizing that for me that if the kids on my street are happy that makes that's going to impact my children as well you know rather than just I just want my kids to be happy and who cares what's happening down the road. I think that you know we have to kind of go bigger picture with things so we can see that how we're all connected and how the repercussions of things you know so maybe just being a little bit more big picture with what we want our children to to experience we want them to experience being part of something you know and also I think coming back and remembering what we have to teach as as humans and as adults I think so often we give away not not responsibility because that's not true.

Nicki

I'm trying to think of the I can't think of the word right now but you know as as parents we go well and the teachers will teach and the doctors will heal and but we have that self-power we have our own power to do that.

SPEAKER_01

And yes we obviously have people that study that and are experts in that area but that's not to say that we don't have things to give back to our community as well just because I'm a teacher doesn't mean that I should be teaching plumbing you know you wouldn't you wouldn't go come to me to learn plumbing so why are we why do we expect our children to learn everything at a school that doesn't have all of those experts because we don't we don't have experts and all those things we don't so we don't and you know it's even for me with the children at Bournewise that's one thing I'm changing this year is is bringing in different teachers with different skill sets because I'm very aware especially like I said some of these children have been coming to me for the past four years and it you know I as much as I am a like you know committed to my own learning journey I'm still the same person. You know I'm still they're still getting a lot of me and I want them to have more than just me. I want them to you know be around someone who's a brilliant artist and they just love sharing their art or someone who loves cooking you know or the things that aren't my strength. So I think that's more important to them than than what they're learning is is that being around that passion and inspiration and and people just operating in what comes naturally to them. You know how you can be around someone and you can watch them garden and you just you just think how do you know how to do that and they just know they just it's in their it's in their it's like it's in their DNA. Yeah I feel like it's great for kids to be around that. So I'd love to see some of those same things within our school system I think and and then maybe helping parents understand how to um communicate with their school if if there's stuff going on that you know they kind of feel like could be done in a different way like that to me comes back to again the of this idea that everything is learning you know even when my elders because my children have been homeschooled and then back in school and you know they've kind of gone backwards and forwards but my elders did have I'd love to get touch back on that later as well if that's actually just reminding us remind me. One of my sons had a um a time where he he wasn't allowed to they weren't allowed to go to his toilet during class um time you know and um so he wasn't drinking any water because he was worried about going to the toilet so there's just you know and his teacher was beautiful she she was a beautiful human and I just think that that's something that we often taught as teachers you become part of that culture of like we don't have time for the toilet because we've got so much curriculum. And anyway I I spoke to my son a lot about it and he had an opportunity coming up in the classroom to do a to do a speech they were asked to do a speech on rights and I think it is part of the curriculum. And so he did a we did a little bit of research together and there was an American um educational researcher and I can't remember his name unfortunately right now but he had done a paper on the child's rights in the classroom kind of beyond the UN and it was 10 things very simple things like the right to to drink water the right to go to the toilet whenever they need to very simple things. So he presented this speech in the classroom and he said at the end of it the teacher came up to me and said I've never thought of it that way when you guys asked to go to the toilet. And you know that I mean again simple things like going to the toilet drinking water but the fact that he for me that was quite a powerful learning for him and for me and for the teacher and for the other kids. You know there was so much in it for me to go actually it doesn't have to be a fight between me and the system. It's like sometimes we just we've got to be a bit clever about how we how we work and I feel like that was you know um it was very clever it was a bit of luck a bit of bit of good timing as well with that you know the way the curriculum did actually help us in that in that way.

Nicki

So yeah good but it it's it's that isn't it I think it's we think school is the best thing for children but ultimately so many of their rights and their freedoms are taken away and there's so many models of how we can do it differently and still do it well and still do it with the budget that we are given. Yes. Even within Australia there are exemplary examples of this happening. So I think I'd love to hear you talk more now about the conscious education movement because I think like you said as teachers I I was one of myself where I got caught up with we just need to get this done like hustle hustle hustle we don't have time for anything else and I didn't have time to reflect on why we were doing things.

SPEAKER_01

I had time to reflect on my teaching practice and lesson before but not the you know it's this is how it's always been done well why why which is a great pause button isn't it to kind of hit for yourself that was the woman I mentioned who was my became my mentor and did all that undoing of my my um teaching degree that was her thing she just would always say but why are you doing this? But why it was always but why why Jill why and it was you know an annoying question but a very valuable one as well and sometimes when you strip things back to the why you all the answers are suddenly there. But then when you're operating on autopilot and you're just going through the motions and getting things done because that's what you do you know that's what you're supposed to be doing you you're just not in that space I think to even think about why it's you don't have time to think about why you don't you don't you don't and you know and it's it's it's a nice kind of mindfulness practice to just stop and ask why to like to go what are we doing here? So um what was you you did ask me another question though.

Nicki

So the conscious education movement tell me about what it is and and the aims of it and whatnot.

SPEAKER_01

So that also came about a little bit by just you know I guess everything comes about just from following stepping stones, doesn't it? Like one thing leads to another but when I first had that idea to just operate the little classes under Bornwise I've I've always had this kind of intuitive knowing that there's my place in the world as an educator which is is where where Bornwise comes in. But then there was this other part of it where I really wanted this grassroots movement that not political because you know that that's not quite right but but operating that arena is political it is isn't it isn't it must be it has to be and um I just wanted to create space around conversation around how can we change these things like I didn't want to come in sort of going I've got all the answers I know because I don't but I I knew that answers and a lot of goodness can come from people just getting together and and bit of conversation around something. So like I said I use the term conscious education purely as a reminder to myself to like practice awareness and curiosity around education and I thought it can't just be me thinking that here in Perth so this amazing organic farm that's quite you know 10-15 minutes away from my house it's called Woodstone Farm. It's a beautiful community space and that's where I was lucky enough to to be able to offer my play group in one of my classes I said to them can I just do a talk here on the weekend? Can I just like invite people you know whoever wants to come and talk about education just let's just put it out there and see what happens and they were you know very um accommodating as as they are they do a lot of work just for the community as well and I just put it out there who wants to come and talk about maybe creating some different ways of of educating our kids and and bringing some conscious awareness to to education and I think like there was about 110 people there which maybe doesn't sound like lots but it was also you know kind of like wow and the ripple effect of that. Yeah and you know that day we kind of just we sat and I led a bit of the discussion but then it just became a a conversation between different humans and it was very inspiring. And I can't say that you know we walked away from that conversation going oh this is what we need to do and the pathway's clear now it definitely is it's not about that but it's just going let's see what happens like let's see you know there's something in this there's there's a reason we're all wanting this and the people who came to that meeting were mostly parents but there were also a lot of educators and I think just from then on it's it's really just a Facebook group but from from what I've seen in that group is that now there's there's so many more programs popping up and there's people talking about how can they bring conscious education into the classroom as much as you know creating systems outside the box as well. Yeah that that's something I feel just drawn to to to do in the world. I don't really know why but I I separate it a little bit from Bornwise because then I can have okay Bornwise is my work that's my business it it operates under a conscious education philosophy but then conscious education is just where I get to be really um yeah grassroots I think is the best way of describing it because I I don't feel bound by by anything in that space other than values I think.

Nicki

Yeah I really I really love that and I I think what's really powerful there for everyone listening is that it can start as as simply as a Facebook group of of attracting like minded people with similar ideas and beliefs and and that ripple effect then spreads. I think I think people see where we are at four and five years in our respective businesses but forget that at one point we were just like I've had enough of this and I want something else and I might not even know what that is but I'm gonna throw it out to the world and see what comes back and I actually went to a um I was a guest speaker one of six on Friday so a couple of parents I don't know about you but we've had school delayed here in Queensland for two weeks because of the Omicron outbreak and it's caused an uproar of course because our outer school hours cares are closed and parents are stuck. So you know they've used up their leave they've had COVID or not had it yada yada yada. So there's this break and this group of parents from I won't name the school but a private school here I guess kind of wondering why they're going to be paying to send their children to a very high paying high fee school to do remote learning in prep oh in prep in prep so but you know that was the first question. That was that was the one question that instigated three friends to go why don't we see if there's anyone else interested in Yeah. And if we pulled our didn't send our children to school this year and suddenly they had six guest speakers on on homeschooling and learning centres and businesses like yours and mine. And they had over fifty people attend. This is in less than a week of the the question being thrown out to the universe to holy moly, we might have a homeschool co-op happening and we might be able to do this ourselves. So I think we need to remember the power that we have and it just takes a little bit of action and not a lot of action. You know, it was oh open my house up, someone else organized a microphone, and somebody sent some DMs and suddenly they have a co-op. It's incredible. It is, isn't it? I I think it's the the possibility and knowing that oh I'm not A, I'm not alone in this. Yeah. But people think like I think, and and so I'm not it's not just going to be me organizing it. And it I got there and I could feel, I can literally feel the fear and the uncertainty and the worry in the room about you know how my child will go to university and how am I going to put bread on the table. And I didn't stay till the end, but within three guest speakers, I went, okay, I can feel that palpable change and empowerment in the room. I went, this is the ripple effect of one person asking a question out loud. Which is amazing.

SPEAKER_01

I've just a news button because it's just, you know, that that idea of just one question, what that can lead to, and you know, sometimes just stopping and being brave enough to ask the question, which which means admitting you don't have the answers, right? Again, something our education system hasn't encouraged in us. It hasn't encouraged us to stand up and say, I don't know, and that's okay. Because, you know, the you I don't know has to come before the the idea. And so, you know, I think people bravely stepping up into that spaces and saying, I actually don't have the answers, but there's something going on. Do you want to come and talk about this and let's see what happens? Like that. I think humans are ultimately adaptive. We've just forgotten that we are, you know, we're same as nature, right? Nature kind of like doesn't it, you know, it evolves and grows to to the way it needs to. I mean, humans are the same. We've just forgotten that we are.

Nicki

That we have the power to do that and to make change. And and I love how you mentioned before about that you are small and you know, you worry about the difference that you're making in your community. But I think by making these small changes in our micro communities and being these little beams of light, then we help create these extra other beams and new beams, and slowly together we make that change. And it, you know, it might not happen overnight, but hopefully by the time our children have kids, that hopefully there's some really palpable change because somewhere, somewhere, like someone somewhere asked, what if? What if we didn't go to school? What if we you know uh were conscious about what we wanted for education? What if we did include well-being as the mainstay and holistic well-being and yoga and meditation and that was the focus instead of academics? Like, what if?

SPEAKER_01

It's just it's amazing once we start thinking that way, isn't it? And then again, bringing that reflective practice to our own schooling, that that's been powerful for me to, you know, and I was someone who I would say had a positive experience in school. It's probably why I became a teacher, you know, because I I I was good at sitting still and listening, you know, I I I was good at that, and that's pretty much all you need to do. I was very good at being a good girl, and so that's you know, that reflection on that of going, what did I also learn about the world in school that that wasn't conscious, you know, that was I I you have to behave and you have to just take this in as kind of fact. Um we don't have time for questions. We don't have time for questions. I I think, you know, for me in those, my mum often says that she feels like when I went to school, there was a little bit more time for questions. You know, in the 80s, she feels like early childhood wasn't so kind of like, come on, let's get on. You need to be able to like write, you know, before you're six. Like she said, she feels like it was a bit slower, but but still there would have been quite strong um, I guess, conditioning and teaching around how to be successful in the world, you know, that that is is taught that you don't realize you're learning because it's not that intentional learning, is it? It's just you're there as a small child learning being asked to go to the toilet, you know, um those sorts of don't don't expect yeah, don't express your needs or don't don't share any emotion. So I I'm really interested in that. And for me, that's been I think it's part of unlocking some of educators and parents' kind of way of seeing things is when they start to reflect on that of like going, well, what were you learning in school? What were what that you you know that wasn't the maths and the English, what was the other stuff, and um, and what does that mean for you today? Like how does that impact the way you show up now? And how can we use that as motivation to change what our children are currently experiencing?

Nicki

Yeah, and it can be sorry, sidetracked here, but as simple as there's some schools that are girls still aren't allowed to wear shorts. You know, what kind of messaging are we sending? Or my husband, when he grew up in New Zealand, they didn't have trousers as part of their uniform. So in the middle of New Zealand winter, they had to wear shorts and long socks, and that was it. And I think that's basic well-being. Basic well-being.

SPEAKER_01

I know. Actually, no, so I do remember a conversation somewhere with somebody about, you know, it was about stockings and girls, whether they were allowed to wear stockings or not allowed to wear. I can't even remember what it was, but I remember thinking, is this really what, you know, like is this the important stuff that we should be talking about? Like if the child wants to wear stockings or doesn't want to wear stockings, does that matter? Can't the child actually make that decision? And and therefore they'll feel safe and comfortable in in how they're showing up, and therefore half your job is done as a teacher. But you know, I mean, if a child's sitting there wearing stockings all day and they're itching and it's distracting them and they can't do anything else, and the teacher's trying to get them to learn something else, and they can't because they're so not pre, you know, it's like just let's just start with meeting simple needs.

Nicki

Um and the conformity of a uniform, I don't know about you, but the we'll the last we were at was quite strict on the uniform. We were public school, so you know, free school. But the socks, if your socks were the wrong colour or the wrong height, and and every teacher was expected to get on to the the students about that. I'm like, you know, at one side of things you're telling us to build rapport, like relationship-based educators, like that's the most important thing. And then the second thing you're telling me is, you know, get up that child if their socks are wrong. And me knowing that that child probably can't afford the zip gods. I know. Why am I gonna waste my time? And and the conformity within that too. Everyone must look the same. No one, you know, boys can't have their hair pass a certain length, girls can't dye their hair. And I just think, where's the allowance for them to be able to express their individuality and to be able to experiment with who they are for six hours a day?

SPEAKER_01

I know, and it sort of defies logic, even to me. Like, you know, I'm not particularly known for being a logical person, but at the same time, I think, why spend any energy on that? Like why is that getting so much attention? Yeah, you know, for stressed teachers, you really don't want to have to be thinking about socks, do you? Like as when everything else you've got on your plate as a teacher.

Nicki

And a child having to admit to a teacher they barely know that they can't afford socks, they're not going to say that. They'd rather take the lunch detention. We're keeping children in lunch to not let them play over socks. Like it just blows my mind.

SPEAKER_01

I definitely, yeah, we definitely need to move past some of those things. Don't you? You know, you kind of I get I think I've forgotten those things that are happening because even like I said, we were working at schools like Bowl Park, which were very free, and I've probably got somewhat detached from that that stuff's going on. So it's a good reminder to know that that's where we're at as well, you know. So kind of coming into some of these schools with these really outdoor out there kind of ideas when they're like, we're still thinking about socks. You know, we've got to acknowledge that as well, don't we? To like go, oh, how can we just take it right back to where they're at and just get them to shift a little bit? Just a little bit.

Nicki

You know, and understand the argument for uniform too, you know, they don't have to think about what they're wearing, you know, and affordability. They can make uniforms quite cheap compared to keeping up with brand names and things, but other schools are doing it successfully, you know, there's still rules around it, but you can still be an individual. Yeah, heaven forbid. Oh gosh. There is so much I'd like to keep talking to you about, Jill. But is there anything else that we've missed that you'd like to mention about um Bornwise or actually, I know, can you talk to us about light weavers? That's something we haven't touched on yet.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, light weavers is um yeah, something I'm very passionate about. I there's a lot of things I'm very passionate about, but you know, it all it all comes down, it all comes down to the um multi-passionate, I think. That's that's the word we say. But everything really does come back to the same values, and for me, it's around um that that well-being in connection to learning. And I um know an amazing uh teacher here in in Perth. She's a local uh yoga meditation teacher, and amongst other things, mum of three. She's you know quite an amazing businesswoman here, and you know, we know each other. And she and I just started talking about how can we um bring a little bit more of these meditation practices and well-being practices to families that, you know, maybe can't come to Bornwise or can't get to like, you know, an amazing program like you guys offer. You know, how can we make it more accessible? And so we created um a series of meditations for children and their families. What we're calling an inner world curriculum, that that's what it launched as, but we're we're also re-we might be re-jigging that. We're doing a little bit of work on it now behind the scenes to kind of re-um launch some of that. But it was basically us coming up with some teachings around well-being, like children need to feel safe, and just how can a family support this at home? So, regardless of whether you're at school or whether you're at Montessori or whether you're coming to like something like Bornwise, you can still nourish these values at home. So the meditations and the inner world curriculum of lightweavers are designed to offer that for children and their families.

Nicki

So, yeah. I think that like you said, it's school doesn't finish, you know, education doesn't finish once school finishes. So, how can we support our children if they're not getting that holistic well-being at school, then how can we do that? And again, I know I realize this comes from very privileged positions to be able to do that. But at some point, if we can keep making these programs more and more normal, then hopefully that we can get them funded and things like that too, so they are more accessible.

SPEAKER_01

So which would be amazing. And we've had teachers using light weavers in the classroom as well, and sort of, you know, given us feedback as to to how you know well received it's been by families and teachers. So, you know, that makes me feel like okay, well, we're getting in there a little bit, like we're getting into these, um, into the mainstream a little bit more as well in these ways. So that feels important.

Nicki

Yeah. So exciting. All right, I've got some rapid fire questions for you. What's your favorite book of all time and why? Or if that's too hard, and like picking your favorite child, what are you currently doing?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I definit it would definitely be like picking my favorite child. Addicted to books. So um, I'm gonna go with right now. And it's a book I got for Christmas. It's it's actually called IQ EQ DQ, New Intelligence in the AI Age. Ooh. And it's by um I'm not, I can't pronounce her first name, which I feel that I should be able to, but it's Dr. Park. She's um a South Korean teacher, researcher, and what she's done is putting together this framework for digital intelligence for children, which is fascinating for me because I've always been quite resistant, resistant to technology. And I've just kind of, you know, the last six months or so gone. I need to reframe this. I need to change the way that I see, you know, technology because it's a realistic part of our world. And and how can I work with technology and nature together instead of seeing them as opposites? So this book is really kind of um, yeah, when we say we're committed to lifelong learning, this this book is blowing my mind at the moment because for someone who's like fairly ignored technology, I'm suddenly reading about what's going on and what's out there. And I'm I'm, yeah, it's a it's an amazing book.

Nicki

Wow, I'm gonna put that on the list. We've um we've been fairly, we're not screen free, but I'd say we're screen light as a family if we're gonna put a label on it. And that obviously fluctuates with what's going on in life. But um, we bought the kids a laptop and we haven't, it was meant to be for Christmas, and we actually haven't given it to them yet because I think we're still like, ah shit, are we ready for this?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. It's confronting, isn't it? It's it's it's I I'm finding that very difficult. So I thought, okay, I can't keep putting my head in the sand. I've got to gotta learn about this a little bit more. So that's what I'm learning about at the moment, and that's why that book is yeah, is helpful.

Nicki

Yeah, I'm putting that one on the list because uh I've done a really great screen uh save. Uh I can't remember what it was called, Family and Screens course with my friend Kat Green from Everyday Empowered. And it was a I can't recommend the course highly enough. Um, but I need to keep on top of it and need to go back and do the family screen agreement and things like that. So yeah. All right. Next question is where do you go or what do you do to reset after a rough day?

SPEAKER_01

It's it's definitely going to be always something nature-based with me, and it will depend on, I guess, what I need if I'm angry. You know, if you're getting that kind of like uh frustrated anger, it's definitely the beach for me. Um, we've we've always got pretty windy beaches here in Perth, and I just feel like the wind and waves are great for for just kind of like, you know, you you feel you're in the same energy of it. So I I try to, I think I go to where what part of nature is reflecting how I'm feeling, if that makes sense. Yeah. Um, so I have a few little special places that mostly close, but you know, every now and then it involves getting in a car and doing the big drive because it's just I know that particular space is going to serve what I'm what I'm needing. So yeah, some sort of there's a few different nature places I think that are special to me that I would go to.

Nicki

We are so spoilt here in Australia, aren't we? Like like you said, we I've got a few around me and I can drive to a few more and and we just don't even I just didn't realise how lucky we were until I moved overseas and went, oh gosh, it's it's actually not as accessible here at all to just go and find some solitude and yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we are blessed with space in this country.

Nicki

That's under understatement and I love it. But the thing that I didn't realize until I lived in London, not for long, only three months, and it was supposedly summer, but it was the greyest, winterest, dreariest thing I've ever experienced. And it was a space that I missed. The blue skies, the space, and the bird song. I just didn't realise the things that are home. But yeah, space is a big thing. Being able to look up and out, outwards and not have not feel closed in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I agree. I was in London for three months as well. Like, so it's funny, it's the same time, and it just I think it was just too much for me. It's a very too overwhelming for someone like me. So uh, yeah, I think we went up to Scotland instead, and I found that a little bit more spacious.

Nicki

So yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's good to do those things, isn't it? And really realise it's it's Emilio Reggio again, isn't it? How place-based we are, yeah, how unfortunate we are to be born where we've been born, and yeah. Yeah, perspective. Yeah. I think we've already covered the one about the things we've changed about the education system. But is there anything you'd like to add there?

SPEAKER_01

Um I I feel like I've yeah, I've been pretty um, yeah, it's probably it's probably been said. I think it's it's definitely just taking things back to like how more how much more simple can we become with our education and just remind ourselves of what children really need and they need to feel safe and supported. So if that's our starting point, let's go back there and then we can slowly add the other stuff, you know. So yeah, I think that's my biggest one.

Nicki

That would change so much, just that. I say just that, but safety, that that's not adjust. That's that's huge.

SPEAKER_01

It's funny that we find it so hard, isn't it?

Nicki

Yeah, it is. We've got the tools, we know what's required. It's just that there's that gap between what we know and how we get there for for the masses, because that I think I think that is the problem. I know that we are creating these bigger schools because of it's essentially funding, you know. It's cheaper to have one library for, you know, and cheaper to have one admin office. But is again, is that the best way to make our children feel safe? I don't believe it is.

SPEAKER_01

No, yeah, totally.

Nicki

All right, and where can we find out more about your work, Jill?

SPEAKER_01

Um, I've I've got a website, so it's uh www.bornwise.com.au, um Instagram, bornwise at Instagram, and also Facebook. That's that's mostly where I am uh these days. And what about light weavers? Where do we find light weavers? Yeah, so it there's a website as well, so it's www.thelightweavers.com.au.

Nicki

Excellent. I'll make sure I pop that in the show notes. Yeah, thank you. It has been an absolute pleasure talking to you. You're the first podcast for me for the year, and that was absolute joy. I feel inspired and refreshed and recharged and ready to create hopefully ripples that turn into waves and and thank you for being a lighthouse, like Maggie Dent talks about. And while neither of us may be in the system anymore, I hope that by bringing our programs into the systems that perhaps that's a way that we can instigate change and and stand up for our children, for our children's rights.

SPEAKER_01

Definitely. Thank you so much as well. I've I've really enjoyed this conversation. Definitely inspired inspired me to yeah, jump back into the year.

Nicki

We can get rid of that fog of the first week of Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well, we've been good through almost three weeks in, aren't we? So I'm a bit, yeah.

Nicki

Well, you know, when you've got we've had pandemics, we've had uh floods, we've had you know tsunami warnings this side of the country. So, you know, I think it's okay if we go a bit slow and a bit careful.

SPEAKER_01

Definitely been asked to, aren't we?

Nicki

Yeah, yes, is that the universe is telling us all to slow down, I think. Mother nature. Thank you so much. I hope you have a wonderful week, and I hope 2022 is filled with with nature and stillness and reflection. Thank you. Same to you. What a fantastic way to start my podcasting year off. I tell you what, doing this podcast is so good for my mental health because I get to chat to all of these incredibly inspiring people, all of these change makers around the world who are actively asking questions and seeking answers and actioning true change. It's so comforting to me to know that there are people out there, you know, asking the same questions and finding the same answers, but most importantly, they're doing something about it. I just love it. I I this is the first podcast for the year, and I'm just re-inspired to keep doing what we're doing and seeing the ripples that it's making. So if hearing from Jill about Bornwise has inspired you to ask some questions about education, whether that's what education might look like in the future or how we can make well-being the actual focus in schools, why not head to her website at bornwise.com.au and if you've got questions about starting your homeschooling journey or starting your own wild business like Bornwise or Wildlings, then why not head over to our website at wildlingsforestschool.com.au And don't forget that all change starts with the question of what if. So, what if you started your own wild business? What would the worst thing that would happen if you started homeschooling? What if one of you worked part-time? What if you took off traveling for the year? Maybe that's what I'll leave you with today. What what ifs could you ask yourself today? Thanks so much for joining us. We really truly appreciate you giving your time and putting us in your ears every week. Until next week, stay wild.