If you're listening to this podcast, my assumption is that you have a love of nature. In this episode, I'm chatting to Sandy Schwartz, who's the author of a new book called Finding Eco-Happiness, which is all about the healing power of Mother Nature, and gives us ways in which we can develop a nature habit for our families. We talk about these and more in our episode today. Welcome to Raising Wildlings, a podcast about parenting, alternative education, and stepping into the wilderness, however that looks, with your family.
SPEAKER_01Each week we'll be interviewing experts that truly inspire us to answer your parenting and education questions. We'll also be sharing stories from some incredible families that took the leap and are taking the road less travelled.
SPEAKER_02We're your hosts, Nikki and Nikki from Wildlings Forest School. Pop in your headphones, settle in, and join us on this next adventure. Before we start, I'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Kabi Kabi and the Gubby Gubby people. We honour their song lines and storylines, and we pay our respects to the elders past, present, and emerging. I'd also like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which you are listening to this episode. Hello and welcome to the Raising Wildlings podcast. You've got me here today, Vicky Oliver, but before I introduce you to our guest today, I just wanted to remind you to like and subscribe. I know that we say this a lot, and a lot of podcasts do, but it really does help. Do our little podcast here at Raising Wildlings. You can also give us a review if you love what we do, and you can chat to us on Instagram. We'd love to know about all of the gold nuggets of wisdom or any insights that you've gained from our guest today, which is Sandy Schwartz. Now she's the founder and director of the Eco-Happiness Project, and she's the author of the parenting book called Finding Eco Happiness: Fun Nature Activities to Help Your Kids Feel Happier and Calmer. She's also the co-author of a children's book called Sky's Search for Eco-Happiness, and she's a journalist specializing in parenting, environmental, and wellness topics. Her whole mission is to inspire and educate families to build a nature habit and to feel happier and calmer. And we're going to be talking more about this on today's episode. So here's Sandy. Hi Sandy, welcome to the podcast. It's absolutely fantastic to have you here.
SPEAKER_00Great to be here. Thanks.
SPEAKER_02All right. Let's um I'd love for you to tell me all about your background first before we talk about your eco-happiness project. So, do you want to take us back to how you have become so entwined in all of the amazing things that you do, like the parenting and the wellness and all of the outdoor things?
SPEAKER_00Yes, it all goes back to a day in 10th grade. I grew up in New Jersey in the US. And I volunteered for or got involved in the night the environmental club at my high school called Nature Defense. And we cleaned up a very dirty river. Oh, wow. And that just really transformed my life. It was that moment when I saw that, you know, there was pollution and there was, you know, these devastation devastating things happening to my own environment and that I could actually do something, you know, because we were able to clean it up and felt good about it. So that was sort of the trigger that led me to my path of being an environmental studies major in college. I focused on environmental politics and government in grad school and then started working at uh the US EPA, Environmental Protection Agency, the National Academy of Sciences, and I really learned how to get involved in the public understanding of science. Yeah. So it was bringing together my, you know, uh interest and passion to save the planet with also being able to communicate it to others.
SPEAKER_02How do you communicate often complex scientific ideas to everyday people, lay people like me? I mean, I have a science background as well, but I still feel like a lot of the concepts are beyond my understanding. How how do you go about that so that people can have an understanding and then feel like they can take some action?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so my bottom line message with all this, because we'll get into the mental health aspect as well, because that's really my main focus of how nature helps with mental health, especially our, you know, our children and all the moms. But in my conclusion of my book, I really hone in on the fact that if people understand and recognize that nature, our environment, our precious environment, can benefit us, okay. I mean, you know, we've tried for a long time now to convince people to stop polluting, to stop, you know, to recycle, to, you know, to do all these things. And so, and I've been involved in the environmental movement for a long time now, you know, over 25 years. And it occurred to me that if people recognize that it helps us feel better emotionally, because, you know, we know that getting outside and exercising makes us feel better. So, how about getting outside and looking at the beautiful rainbow or trees or the beach? How that makes us happier and calmer, then maybe, you know, just maybe people will say, Hey, I want to protect that park. I want to protect that beach and make sure it's clean and stop with all the the plastic pollution. So yeah, you know, that's what I want to communicate. And I think the best way to do it, from what I've learned, is to really, yeah, like kind of pull on people's heartstrings and and realize that so that they can realize that it's about them. Yeah. I think it just might be a little bit more effective if it's really something that impacts them and their children, and they can see the smile on their child's face, you know, after being outside.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I think, you know, just observing the children that we have at Forest School and all of our other programs, is that when you have that connection to nature, it is a lot easier to understand how it can be about you and how you fit in to the whole connectedness of everything as well. Like if you don't have that connection, if you're not out there experiencing nature, then it's a lot easier for us to dismiss all of the big problems and not see how it affects us.
SPEAKER_00Yes, especially when, you know, the way the system's set up where you throw the garbage out and you don't know where it goes, or you flush and you don't know where it goes, and you think that it's this endless, you know, cycle, but it's not. Everything comes back, and we're wrecking the plastic issue is a huge example. You know, that and it's a f it's a fascinating, you know, because plastic, when it was created, was to really help improve society in so many ways, and it has, and there are some uh you know, great benefits of plastic, you know, the medical uh absolutely that's the first one that came to my mind. Yeah, but we got into this, you know, quick serve society where now everything's gotta be takeout and and then you just throw it out. And and then even when one of the most disheartening things was finding out that recycling wasn't really what it was. Just when like I said, when I was in high school, I was teaching the younger kids when I was in this nature defense club about how important recycling was. So now we have to change our mindset on that as well.
SPEAKER_02And that makes it hard for people to um, you know, like you feel like you've been, I know that this is how I felt when I found out about that. I was like, all these years I felt like I was making a difference. It was something actionable that I felt like I was doing and it wasn't actually what I thought it was. And then it, you know, like that's uh you don't we don't want those sorts of things happening. We want to feel like when people are taking action, it's actually making a difference.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And I think that the hands-on activities, volunteering outside in nature really does help, you know, help with that because you know, when you are cleaning up a beach or a park, it can be a little bit frustrating because you're like, oh, there's more and more. But on the other hand, it does leave you feeling like you're you're giving back and you're making a difference, and you can actually see the bag that you have collected and will dispose of, you know, properly and all that. So and a cleaner environment that you're leaving.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, I think it it's important for our kids to learn what they can do to protect it and why, why, you know, you know, how that all helps them feel better.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. So tell me more about the Eco Happiness Project.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the other piece of the puzzle is the mental health and emotional well-being that that happens from being in nature. And so the other part of my story was that while I was passionate about cleaning up the environment and also communicating about science, I also was struggling and and frankly can can continue to struggle with stress and anxiety. You know, it's just my my makeup, you know, and long line of genetic warriors. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you know, family in my family. And so I began to seek out natural ways of coping with my own stress and anxiety and emotional health. And I came across the world of positive psychology. And that are some approaches like gratitude, practicing gratitude, mindfulness, um, really honing in on all, all of our of the of nature and our surroundings, all is fascinating. And so that's where Eco Happiness Project was born, out of that concept that nature and in mental health are connected. And how can I educate people about it and then also inspire them to build a nature habit in their own family?
SPEAKER_02All right. So let's go with that. So, how how can people get started on building a nature habit? Because I think what I see where we live is that we have a beautiful place that we live. A lot of people do spend time outside, but I wouldn't necessarily call it a habit. So, how can we build that?
SPEAKER_00Well, first I think it's good to recognize that the studies show that spending about 20 minutes a day can be very beneficial to our health. There was a groundbreaking study in 2019 published in Scientific Reports, and it really hit the media pretty far and wide. And I think that really, you know, changed the discussion. And so, you know, that 120 minutes a week or 20 minutes uh, you know, approximately a day is a good goal to set for us. And I know that can be intimidating to some people who aren't outdoorsy or very busy, but I like to explain it as start with what you're already, what you already love, what your kids already love, and go from there. You know, are your kids into creative arts? Do they like to write, um, you know, write poetry, draw, paint? Well, instead, I like to use this example. Instead of a child sitting inside drawing or painting, let's say cartoons, for example, get them outside, you know, to the local park, to your balcony or backyard, whatever you have, and get them, you know, trying, you know, challenge them to paint with the scene out there. You know, take them to different, you know, inspiring locations and see what they can create. If you have a child who loves sports, you know, encourage those outdoor sports activities more. Yes. So it's really, you know, that, you know, that those are like some of the main activities that you can do as far as, you know, let's call them hobbies, right? Yeah. But then there's also really weaving in nature experiences to your daily routine. And that can be as simple as having a meal outside or walking somewhere. We happen to live, and I and you know, the other piece of my story is I am a total suburbanite. And so, you know, that comes with its own challenges with having to drive lots of places. But we have uh a library that we can walk to or bike to very close by, and so and a few little shopping centers. So it's really makes you feel good, you know, when you walk to the library. Yeah, okay, I didn't get in my car today. And so, you know, I encourage people to look at those opportunities where they can walk more, ride their bike more, combine activities in into one that would allow them then to do more outdoor things together with with others, with their family. So it's a it's a lot of getting creative.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I guess too remembering that nature doesn't necessarily have to be like wild nature. It doesn't have to be, you know, in the middle of a forest or down at the beach, that there's nature in your neighborhood, um, and that you can I mean, I I just absolutely love what looking at through people's gardens and and all of sometimes there's green space in between as well, and that's just as beneficial as you know, having to seek out something that's feels secluded. It's born around, um, that nature's everywhere.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, even in the heart of a big city like New York City, Central Park. And I didn't really discover that until I was an adult. I grew up about two and a half hours south of it. But when I really began to see what Central Park was, it was it was incredible to me that it was planned out that way, that the city was planned that way. Because, I mean, when you're in Central Park, you feel like you're immersed in nature and the birds are chirping and and the squirrels are, you know, running around. So even in urban environments and suburban environments, we can seek out parks and nature centers and science museums, botanical gardens, and uh our own neighborhood, the flowers of your that your neighbors have planted in their garden. Um, yeah, there's a lot of opportunities. We just have to open our eyes and be more mindful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, actually, it's funny, so even museums, like I feel really connected. Our museum in Brisbane's got this amazing section of taxidomied animals, and I just love being able to see up close um these animals that I see in my neighborhood and be able to, you know, take that in and really slow down and and see them clearly because sometimes you just see them in the trees or you know, scuttling into the bushes. Um, so even though that's an indoor place, I still feel connected to nature there. So that's a that's a great example as well. Um, if you're already really connected to nature, what other things can we do to challenge our family a little bit more if we're taking that next step?
SPEAKER_00Sure. Well, that that is kind of the key is to challenge yourself, to think out of the box, maybe try something you have never done. I'm sure there's something. Even if you are an avid hiker and camper, there's probably something you haven't tried yet. Um, and you know, something that is a little bit out of the ordinary that I like to talk about is tree hugging.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I just saw that on, I was having a look at some of your articles, and that was the first one that came up, and I was like, that actually it's out of my I've still got the tab at why tree hugging is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, years ago, you know, I've been writing about parenting and wellness and and environment for for years. And so a few years ago, I wrote about how important it is for, you know, parents to have contact with their kids through touch, you know, since they're, you know, uh born an infant, and then the hug, how important it is to have hugs, you know, and all that interaction. And there's a lot of research on that skin-to-skin contact. And so then I actually had spoken to a really cool guy who wrote a book, he's called known as the hug doctor, Stone Crushar Crushar. And he wrote a book called 21-day journey to embracing yourself, your life, and everyone around you. And so he he explained that that 21 seconds uh is when when you're hugging like an animal, so like a pet, a person, and even a tree, that's when those positive hormones kick in. And so, yeah, I really got into that. And I thought it was kind of cool to bring that concept of hugging a tree because, of course, the term tree hugger has an interesting connotation in the environmental world. But actually, stopping and trying it, it's very an empowering moment because a tree is that epitome of nature and stability. And when you're holding on to the tree, you know, you feel so strong too. So, you know, that's a fun and different out of you know, thing to try. Yeah. To breathe deeply, you know, and and breathe in the scents of the tree because they have, you know, they give out um the the special scents that that help calm us down. So yeah, like go hug a tree, there's one for you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm actually I challenge all of our listeners to um, and I feel like that's you know, even for me, I'm like, wow, um, what are my instant barriers to doing that? So my instant barrier is like, where would I do that so that no one sees me? Right. Like, you know, but I can't everybody says. Yeah, right. And then I think, oh, like that doesn't, you know, that's my instant thing. I can work through that. It doesn't really matter. Like, I'm I can absolutely go hug a tree in in a very crowded place. It's not not a problem. But I can imagine that would be a lot of people's first thing. But you know, there's absolutely ways to go and give that a go and see if you do feel something. I'm really keen to do that actually this afternoon when I'm out. I'm gonna I will um pop that in the show notes actually about my experience hugging a tree. Yeah, um, so yeah, I definitely for those listeners who go out and try it, we'd love to hear about your experience as well. So um we'd love, yeah, let us know. Um, you've got some other really interesting things like cow cuddling as well. Does this give you a the similar sort of feeling?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so cow cuddling is fascinating. Now, I have not done it yet, it's on the bucket list. But I I interviewed several people that are involved in this, and so animals are commonly used for therapeutic purposes, and you know, cow cuddling is like this kind of you know, fad that that just kind of started, at least in the United States, a little bit more. It did come from Europe. Um and so farms are offering, and I guess the premise too is that farms in the United States, you know, they're they're closing down a lot of them. You know, we don't have as many farms. So they're trying to come up with unique activities to attract uh customers. Um yeah, so they're doing like goat yoga and cow cuddling is this concept of the a cow just becomes your like couch, the way it it lies down in a half circle and it creates this cozy like area for you to just snuggle up with the cow. And you know, the research shows this can be very meditative, and a big reason why is besides the snuggling, but that cows have slightly slower heart rate than humans. Okay, so it helps our heart rate slow down, and their body temperature is also higher, and so they're warmer, so that helps us feel more relaxed. Yeah, it's really interesting, and it was it was challenging to find places that are doing it. There was one in New York State, one in Hawaii, maybe one in North Carolina, but not too many people. So actually, the woman who who does it runs the farm in New York, she got a lot of press. It was like in the New York Times, then it kind of went viral. But I so I don't know if where they are exactly. You know, people can Google in and see if there's there's a cow cuddling experience near you. The then the animal yoga as well, uh, like I mentioned goat yoga, but there's all kinds of other animal-related, you know, mindfulness and yoga experiences, like um butterfly pavilions are offering yoga with butterflies and and bunnies, you can do bunny yoga. So these are really cute experiences that kids would really enjoy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I guess if it's something that you you do enjoy and it and you will keep doing it, that's the thing too, is that sometimes these things um like we like the ideas of them, but how do we get ourselves to do them regularly? So if you find something that really does tickle your fancy or something that you will commit to, then you'll get even more benefits from those. So that's amazing. We haven't explored forest bathing too much, but I'd like to know more about it from your perspective.
SPEAKER_00Yes, forest bathing, I actually did do forest bathing in Pennsylvania, and it's essentially going on a hike in a very mindful way. So, for example, you and it's very an all-sensory experience. So I was at this kind of like spa lodge in Pennsylvania, one of my favorite places I've ever been. I love it, going back there this summer, actually. And so we started, we were in a small group and we started down the path, and we had a guide. You know, they have these trained forest bathing guides now, and um, you know, they're certified, and there's organizations that do that now, and there's more and more of them, so that's pretty cool. And we first started with looking up. He asked us to look up really high to see the top, the treetops, and to look at the sky, and you know, you could see how it was shady. And then we were asked to walk very slowly, and you could walk in different ways, right? So you would hear like and then you would listen and hear the crunching of you know the rot your feet on the rocks and I mean I walked I tried different ways I walked backwards I walked sideways I lifted my knees real high and so yeah it was just being really immersed in that environment and and then like the in the where we were the trees tree line kind of ended and then it was like this little open field and so then there were like more bugs and butterflies and birds and you know so it it changed you know our environment and what we were experiencing and then um we ended up in a spot where we he asked us to find a sit spot so different people dispersed you know some people went under a tree I actually found a nice big boulder to sit on and we were just asked to to you know sit there and be mindful for like 15 minutes alone and it was amazing. I remember seeing like a squirrel come up to me you know and everything really came alive.
SPEAKER_02Oh wow yeah do you know I found that um we do sit spots here too um but I do you know where I find that I have these experiences is when I'm scuba diving because you know like you're actually really shut off from a lot of your senses you know you can't hear a lot and so you're very you you know you're concentrating on your breathing and like the animals will come up to you in a way that I've never experienced on the land. I've had so many really unique and life-altering experiences with animals in the water and it is it's like this connection that you and this oneness with nature that I've really really experienced on the land but the fact that you experience that like I feel like we don't have squirrels here so I feel like that's a that would be a really cool thing to see. But anytime you see any mammals that come up close in in the wild I feel like that's such a unique and amazing experience. They stay with you those moments.
SPEAKER_00Yes Richard Liu's latest book talks about oh and wild wild calling he talks about how important it is to have those experiences directly with the wild wildlife. And a lot of that is linked to this concept of awe and wonder and we can't really describe it but it's this overpowering incredible feeling that you know you kind of lose track of where you are and what's going on you know when you're you're staring in the eyes of a critter.
SPEAKER_02Yeah yeah there's this um I don't know if you get Bluey over in um the States a beautiful little cartoon that we have here and there's a moment where she goes down to the creek with her dad for the first time and they they they capture that moment. There's a little um pottery type of kangaroo that comes up to her and and looks at her and they and and it's that moment that they capture in this little children's cartoon and I was like that's that's it. That's what happens when you're out in nature is you have these moments, these micro moments and like you say that awe I think is such a powerful word to describe that moment where like you say everything slows down and you're just so in the moment. And um yeah I I think it's it's really it was so amazing to see it in a a show like a mainstream show to see that moment captured so beautifully that you know I've had plenty of these moments in my life but seeing it captured in that way I was like that's it that's that's the moment that we all I guess don't realize we need to have those those encounters with wildlife is so special.
SPEAKER_00I still when I see a butterfly it's like I'm five years old again you know it's like oh butterfly look and you try to look at you can't quite see it because it's so quick.
SPEAKER_02But uh yeah yeah and looking at the birds that sometimes end up in my backyard and trying to figure out which ones they are yeah and that's I think I love have loved about becoming a parent is that if I feel like I've gone through that all over again helping my children to see the world that in that way slowing down and you know they they are so in tune with what's happening around them. They they observe and they notice things that I don't and I I'm so appreciative of having those experiences because they're like oh look I found a well my daughter was talking about a snake she saw yesterday when she was out and I you know like those sorts of things it's I wouldn't notice half of what I've been able to experience if my children hadn't been there noticing for me.
SPEAKER_00That's interesting and you know they they seem to know a lot more too I mean we didn't have these experiences but you know my kids they went to different camps where there was always the animal classroom and they would talk about this chinchilla and I'm like what's a chinchilla and but they were always like learning about animals that I you know we never did.
SPEAKER_02Yeah we go to with you know if we need an ID we go straight to the kids now what bird is those particularly birds we we're like where's you know where's Harper? Where's Gabe? But we know that the kids that will be able to tell us what what species that is because none of the adults are going to know we're still you know a lot of us are on on that journey of trying to increase our ecological literacy whereas these kids it's just embedded now which is amazing. All right well Sandy that's been so fascinating to talk with you about all of these things. When can we hear more about your work?
SPEAKER_00Yes well you can find all kinds of blog posts and articles. My website is ecohappinessproject com. I also have a book coming out soon called Finding Eco Happiness Fun Nature Activities to help your kids feel happier and calmer.
SPEAKER_02And excited for that one to come out for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah and if you're running out of ideas for nature activities I guarantee that you won't when you you know start looking at the book I have activity checklists at the end of each chapter. Perfect and the chapters are categorized by you know aspects like mindfulness, animals, food. And so there are endless opportunities for you to build that nature habit. And I'm also excited to share I have a children's book coming out too it's actually up on Amazon now. Oh yeah awesome what's that one called Sky's Search for Eco Happiness. If you just Google eco happiness it'll come up but it's um yeah we wanted to I I teamed up with a teacher friend Julie Newstadter and we wrote this book so that we can you know help parents start to build that conversation with their kids about how nature can help them with their emotional well-being. And so it's about a little girl who's feeling blue and her mom says hey why don't you go outside and check out what your friends are doing and they're all doing these great you know nature activities like outdoor yoga, painting a sunset. And so it yeah it's really it it it really brings in you know that what what the parents will learn in the book and now the kids can learn it as well.
SPEAKER_02Ah fantastic that sounds great. All right just to wrap up our interview today I'd love to ask you our little rapid fire questions. So one of the questions we like to ask everyone because I've benefited so much from asking this one is what's your favorite book of all time or um what's a book you've been reading rec reading recently get my words out that people might benefit from knowing about is it nature related book or can be like because sometimes people don't do nature related and they're still really really great recommendations.
SPEAKER_00Yeah the first one that comes to mind is the four agreements oh yeah I've heard about that one I don't know that I've read it yeah I it's so good especially to help with my mental health and perfectionism and all of that. It you know really it's one of those books that I really should read every single morning before I start my day. I wish you could just put your finger in a book and like the knowledge goes in your head. Yeah but it's really about like not caring what other people think and and just these simple aspects that can improve your life. So that that is important. And then of course I'll put a plug in for Richard Liu's books, you know we wouldn't be here without his nature deficit disorder book.
SPEAKER_02So yeah brilliant um it's funny I think that that book that you recommended um will really help people to go out and um hug a tree, not care what people think. So that's a great recommendation. Yes that's true it's a good connection there. It is um all right so where do you go to reset after like a tough day or a tough week? Where's your go-to place?
SPEAKER_00You know I try to take lots of walks my typical day is I take my kids to school and then I head outside for a walk. Sometimes a bike ride I just started playing some pickleball too once a week.
SPEAKER_02So I've heard Brene Baran talking about pickleball and I have no idea what it is must be in the round I have to look into it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah it's uh like mini tennis. Ah okay but uh and then even if I work out at home we we have a balcony on our second s f story and I have um you know a stationary bicycle out there so even if it's raining I can still actually be outside and I want to read a book while I'm um on the bike. So yes getting outside taking a break taking a walk for sure.
SPEAKER_02Awesome.
SPEAKER_00If you had to choose one thing about the education system to change what do you think that might be to tell the whole story the whole truth about everything history whether it's history or environmental issues that is been you know especially the last few years my eyes have opened uh I'm I'm 44 and I feel like it took a lot of you know protests and changes in in society you know finally in my 40s for me to open my eyes to to recognize that history isn't what they really taught us in elementary school.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so my children and I and I like to explain this to my kids you know my kids are nine and 13 and I'm like you know when you're studying this make sure you realize that it's actually this what happens what happened. And I'm glad that I have that that knowledge now. So yeah I think you know that comes to play with our plastic discussion as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah yeah because I feel like if we've we're not getting the whole truth of where we've come from uh we can't actually learn from mistakes or um have a holistic understanding of what where we are now so that we can make better choices for the future. I think that is a really really important one I see that a lot um particularly with American history and stuff like that. It's the same here in Australia though. Yeah there's a there's a lot of gaps a lot of things that have been left out intentionally I think too so yeah you're your children are lucky that you can fill in some of those for for you because I'm I'm sure there's a lot of children that don't and like all of us take a really long time to to know what the truth actually is. All right thank you so much for being on the podcast with us today. It has been absolutely illuminating to talk about all of the the mental health connections we have with nature and eco-happiness. I'm really excited to hear to read your book so thank you so much for all of the work that you do and um all of the amazing journal articles people should be definitely going onto your website and having a look I've been looking through these and like wow I've a bit of reading to ahead of me and yeah thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00Yeah and if you have any other ideas for blog articles let me know.
SPEAKER_02Oh shall do yeah if anyone's got any uh ideas you can definitely drop a line in um under our Instagrams usually where we have some really great discussions from the podcast. So thank you so much Sandy.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_02I love a good reminder to get outside and continue building on my own nature habits so I'm gonna go out this afternoon and I'm gonna try hugging a tree. I don't care who's gonna see me I encourage you to do the same and tell me all about it and I'm gonna give you the lowdown on my experience in the next episode that I record. And if you'd like a little bit more inspiration to get your family outside you can head to our website wildthingsforestchool.com forward slash free dash downloadables and you can find things like our free nature scavenger hunt printable and we've got some other really cool resources there. And in addition to this one of the projects that we are looking at more this year is to perhaps provide a membership platform. It may be an extension of our current Patreon platform or maybe it might be in a different format. If that's something that might interest you so that you can get access to more nature plate tips, tricks and bush skills and all of the other amazing learnings that we can gain from being families that spend time outdoors I'd love to hear more about that. So you can send us an email at hello at wildlingsfore school.com or you can reach out to us via DM on Instagram is usually one of the best places to reach us. We'd love to know more about how we can make that look for you but I do have to go now so until next time we love doing this journey with you so stay wild