SPEAKER_01

In today's episode, I am joined by the beautiful Dr. Marta, who's a psychologist. And if you don't already follow her on Instagram, well, now is the time to start. Her mission is to make the science of psychology accessible to all and to support parents to see their child behind the behaviour. She's really good at distilling big topics into simple ideas, but more importantly, those actionable strategies to support your everyday with your family. I would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Kabi Kabi and the Gubby Gubby people. I'd like to honour their song lines and storylines and pay my respects to the elders past, present, and emerging. I'd also like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which you are listening to this episode. Welcome to Raising Wildlings, a podcast about parenting, alternative education, and stepping into the wilderness, however that looks, with your family.

SPEAKER_00

Each week we'll be interviewing experts that truly inspire us to answer your parenting and education questions. We'll also be sharing stories from some incredible families that took the leap and are taking the road less traveled.

SPEAKER_01

We're your hosts, Vicki and Nicki from Wildlings Forest School. Pop in your headphones, settle in, and join us on this next adventure. Hello and welcome to the Raising Wildlings Podcast. You've got me as your host today, Vicki Oliver, and I'm really excited to bring Dr. Marta to you. She's a clinical psychologist who's on the podcast with me today. She's got 20 years of clinical and academic experience. But one of the things that I love about her mission is that she's striving to make the science of psychology easy to understand for everyone. She's got this huge growing Instagram community that just trust the calm and the empathetic way that she tackles really big subjects. And that might be really big things like current affairs or death or consent and gender and all of those things, as well as the small day-to-day challenges, such as just getting your children out the door or brushing their teeth. And I think what I love about her is that she's focusing on that common humanity and the topics that are relevant to us here and now. The fact that ultimately as parents, we just want to feel less alone. So without further ado, I'd like to invite you to um listen to Dr. Master today and uh hope that you get as much value as I did through our conversation. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for joining me today. Thank you for having me. Um, we might start. I always like to find out your background. How did you become um working in your field? How did you become a doctor?

SPEAKER_03

Um, so I'm a doctor in clinical psychology, yeah, which is slightly different from a medical doctor. How did I become a psychologist? I don't know. I think um it was a bit kind of I fell into it a little bit. It wasn't like the career I expected to have uh when I was growing up. I was just interested in biology and I was interested in people and the way people think and the way people behave. So I went to university and did an undergraduate degree and I loved it. And then I just kind of knew then that this is what I wanted to learn more about.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So it became more about learning, and then it became about doing. So it was like a gradual process for me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's awesome. And then you've got quite a profile now on Instagram and your podcast and all of that. Um, is that just something that's grown organically? I mean, I thought it doesn't surprise me because your content is so helpful. And not only that, it's I think it just makes people feel supported in the challenges of parenting. Um, and one of the things I noticed in one of your social posts was talking about like parenting's not a skill or it's not a strategy, or there's like not models of parenting, it's a unique relationship. Do you want shall we start there about parenting being a relationship?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, parenting is a relationship, and there isn't really a model of parenting. I think there's lots of words out there, and as a clinical psychologist, I don't actually like hold on to any of these very tightly, you know, like gentle parenting, conscious parenting, respectful parenting. I I am a little bit confused as to why we need these adjectives. And I think for me, professionally and personally, the only reason is because what parents want to say is I'm not doing this other kind of parenting, you know, the punishing, coercing, whatever, you know, yeah, uh smacking, all that kind of stuff. So we need something else. Whereas I just feel like we should just be calling it parenting because that's what parenting is. We should be more aware of ourselves as parents, you know, conscious of this relationship we're building. We should be respectful towards our children the same way that we're respectful towards adults and people we love and care about.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Just part of coexisting and cohabiting in the world for me. And we should be gentle parents. It's not about being soft. We should be wanting to be gentle to our children because they're small and they're vulnerable and they need that from us. They need kind of gentleness and love to thrive. Children don't thrive on harshness and you know, force. That's not where thriving lives.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And I I think for me, my biggest parenting journey has actually been about me. It's not actually been um a lot of the time I feel like it's I'm projecting that it's about my children, but at the end of the day, it's it's more about my reactions and my triggers as opposed to, you know, I think in the short term, it's about I want I want my children to do something, like in those challenging moments. But when it comes down to it, what I feel like is when I'm reflecting, I'm like, that's actually more about me and how I'm responding and why those things make me so mad as opposed to changing my children in some way. Because you know, when we know more about children, they're where they are developmentally, the more that is or more on me. Do you would you say that that's probably where we're at? Yeah, I think absolutely.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I think that's the most challenging part of parenting. And I think it's amazing that you're so self-aware of that. Because I think it's the you know, for me, the biggest shift when you become a parent is moving from thinking that your job is to control your child, you know, to control their behavior, and then to kind of actually shift into thinking, actually, my job is to control my behavior, you know, to regulate my emotions, to show my child what I want them to do or how I want them to behave, is to be able to model that to them.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And if as an adult you struggle, and lots of adults do, like the thing that I always say is, it's not your fault. And you can still learn. You can still learn this. Well, it's not your fault because you've never learned it. And often we haven't learnt it because that's not what we were taught when we were little. Like maybe we weren't taught how to manage our anger, or maybe we weren't taught how to speak up respectfully. We were just told to stay quiet. That's right. So if that's the case, it's really hard to then witness your child in anger or witness your child kind of speaking back at you and you think that's wrong, but actually, it's not wrong. It's about the how more than the no. So for me, it's more about teaching children how you can allow you're allowed to feel angry. Anger is a really important emotion that we've kind of made into like you know, a bad guy in our life. Villainized, yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely villainized. Well, actually, it's a very healthy emotion and it allows us to develop assertiveness, which again, I feel like lots of adults don't have. Lots of adults don't know how to be assertive.

SPEAKER_01

No, I think I even struggle with that. And uh and I feel like I can be assertive, but I still fall into patterns of doubting that I should be in in certain situations and and with set within certain people. Um, and that's something that we're really uh like what I'm working on with because I've got two daughters and they're eight and ten, um, is really actively thinking about how do I teach my children to speak up for themselves and not to just be compliant. Like I know that sometimes what society deems as like a goal for children is to be compliant in some way. Um, but then we sort of go, why don't children speak up? Why don't teens speak up? Why haven't adults? Why don't these people in this situation speak up? And it comes down to that compliance. So if we want children to stand up to peer pressure or question authority or the validity of something, how like, you know, what should we be doing there? Like where should we be focusing our attention?

SPEAKER_03

So it starts from when they're tiny. This is the bit that I think parents find really hard because most parents will want exactly what you just said, you know. I want my child to speak up when they're a teenager, to stand up to peer pressure, you know, to say no, like you don't have to follow the crowd, you know, be your own person. We want that from our adults, more adult, kind of teenager-y children. And we do want that from our adults. That's their long-term goal. That's the long-term goal. And I think the issue is that when they're really little, what we actually say to our kids is comply, do as you're told, don't speak up, don't say no, you know, listen to authority. Those two things don't match. Okay. If we start to show our children that the experiences that they're supposed to have are to say yes blindly, I'm not saying children shouldn't sometimes do, they have to do what we say sometimes. Absolutely. There's a nuance here, because for me it's about, it's not about just shutting down kids every time they speak up. It's not about saying, you don't talk to me like that, or you know, you're not allowed to say no, you have to do as I say. Your child might have to, for example, get dressed to go to school. They have to. It's a have, okay? Even if they say no. But the way you respond to their no can be different. It can be, you know, empathic to their no. It can be, okay, you're saying no, let's sit down, let's slow down. I know you're, I know you're rushing, mom and dad, because it happens to me too. But sometimes you just have to go, you know what, my child's the priority. So I'm just gonna sit down, slow it down, and be curious about it. What's going on today? You really don't want to go to school. That's what it's about. They don't want to go to school. So listen. Yeah, you know, notice your child and listen. Don't push, you know, like two poles pushing. No, yes, no, yes. Just stop, just stay still for a moment. Be curious, listen in, notice, and then you can feed it back, which might sound something like, I mean, I don't know what's happening, but it could sound something like, I know you don't want to leave me. I know you want to spend time with me, and I want to spend time with you. You have to go to school. So we're gonna have to get dressed now. But I promise after school, we're gonna spend lots of time together, we're gonna do nice things together.

SPEAKER_01

And then it's about encouraging their willingness rather than forcing them when they say and I think um, you know, I've even been caught sometimes in um saying things that aren't true to try and get them to just do what we want them to do in that moment. Um, and it's taken, I mean, I'm I'm I'm I'm more aware, I think, about these things, but it still pops out, right? Like those things that we sometimes promise, or um we we sort of try and trick them into thinking a certain way so we can just get them out the door, or we can just get them like if they're feeling anxious about leaving us or being separated from us, and we might say things like, um, I'll be I'll be right back. You'll it'll the time will go before you know it. And that's not actually accurate. Or like I mean, one of the classic ones for us is we've been on hikes and we're it's we're nearly there. We're nearly there, but we're not actually nearly there. So you put this fourth promise out into the world, and then you like erode that trust almost.

SPEAKER_03

Yes. I mean, I think the thing that that does is everybody does that, by the way. So you're not a bad parent if you do this, and it's not really helpful in the long term. So it can over time erode your trust if you do it a lot. Yeah, but it also means that your child just doesn't really believe you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You know, like in that moment, they're like, Well, I don't know if I believe you or not, which can be really unhelpful at times when you are telling them the truth and you want them to believe you because they're like, Well, I don't know anymore. Which one is last time you told me we were nearly there, we went to the case. Yeah, so it's really confusing to kids. I think a much better it's kind of like the strategy that I invite parents to take, but I know this feels hard, is to just get really vulnerable and talk about you. Like, be honest about it. So, you know, rushing out the door or in the car, just kind of saying, Oh, you know what? We're still really far away, but the more you ask me, the more annoyed I'm getting. It's okay to say that. Yeah, it's okay to say, just name it rather than being like, We're nearly there. Like you're just playing a game, right? Name before leaving the house, just gonna say, we're in a rush. We need to go. I'm my body is starting to feel really stressed right now. Okay, and that might help you regulate, which comes back to what we said at the beginning. Yeah, because I've noticed that when I name how I'm feeling, I'm starting to get annoyed or I'm starting to get stressed. It then makes me go, oh, I need a moment. Yeah, I am feeling annoyed, actually. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Then I might say, you know what? I do need to get you to put your shoes on, but I'm gonna take a minute. And I just go off, I take a breath because I struggle to do that in front of my child personally. So I go off, take a moment, I come back, and I feel a lot more ready to be like, Come on, shoes on, let's go. But it's about just being honest with your child because they're witnessing you doing something, but they don't know what it is. Like, unless we name it, they're like, My my parent is screaming at me, or they're getting annoyed, or what's going on? And you're saying something like, Come on, let's go, and they can't tell. Like, just name it. You're also teaching them emotional literacy, you're teaching them regulation. You know, it's a learning opportunity, those little movements.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, because kids find it hard to self-regulate, right? Like, can you can you talk to us a bit about self-regulation?

SPEAKER_03

Uh, yeah, I mean, it's such a big topic. I also think people don't know what self-regulation is. What would you call self-regulation? What do you think it is? It's not a test. Don't worry.

SPEAKER_01

I I I don't I think for me, I I think of it as having different ways in which I can have an awareness of how I'm feeling and finding a way to move through that. Like having an awareness to move through it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's beautiful. It's exactly that. Just, you know, being aware that you're feeling, which by the way, we feel all the time, and most of the time we feel more than one emotion at any time, you know. Uh more than one thing can exist at the same time. Yeah. And it's about just being able to move through it whilst making like healthy choices, right? So kind of managing our emotions. Managing does not mean shutting down. That's a key. Yeah, because it's so, you know, if you feel angry, it's not about blocking it. It's about how you channel that angry energy into something useful or positive, which could be assertiveness, could be, I'm gonna walk away from this right now because I need some space to breathe. There's so many different options that might not include yelling at somebody or, you know, yeah, getting really wound up in that kind of explosive, aggressive manner. But children can't do what I just said, which is notice an emotion and then say, What can I do with this? They can't do that because their brains are not fully formed when they're born, they're kind of under construction. And the first like three years really builds a foundation for their brain, but then their brain doesn't fully mature, like all the connections, the wirings of the brain, they don't even fully form or happen until they're around 25 years old.

SPEAKER_01

Which is massive.

SPEAKER_03

I know. And it's a you know, when you think of a 25-year-old, most you know, they're young adults, but we often see them as adults, they're often, you know, working, having independent lives, not always, but often.

SPEAKER_01

Well, that's I thought it was teaching by the time I was 22. So I'm, you know, teaching children in high school. Yeah. And my brain wasn't fully developed then. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And I think just being aware of it can be helpful, just in terms of being like, for me, those years are all about nurturing and developing opportunities to experience things that are more or less useful. That doesn't mean children should have perfect lives. They have to go through disappointment, they have to go through challenges, right? But there's a part of their brain which is at the front, it's called the prefrontal cortex. That doesn't even begin to kind of switch on. It's there, but it's like asleep. It's particularly asleep between the ages of like zero to five. Like you just have to imagine it does not exist, okay? But it's the prefrontal cortex that kind of modulates, mediates, buffers our big emotions. Yeah. And it's not until they're around eight that it starts to kind of go, oh, I I've got a job to do. So in those early years, as parents, our job is to be our child's prefrontal cortex. I sometimes think of myself as I am my child's brain right now, because her brain can't do this. Her body can't do that. Yeah. So we have to do it for them, which is why, you know, and it sounds airy fairy, but it isn't. You know, the idea of when they're really exploding in a tantrum or a meltdown, your job is just to stay calm. Yeah. Because that's the bit of their brain that they don't have. They don't have the calm switch. You're their calm switch. So if you get riled up, if you get like explosive with them, you know, if you join their chaos, it just makes it worse because they're terrified in that moment. So then you're then they kind of look around at the adults for support and they're thinking, no one can help me with how scary this feels in my body. Yeah. But if we just stay calm, it's not about pulling them out. Okay. You don't have to pull them out of their distress, fix it, find a solution. Just stay calm. And by calm, I mean try not to move very much. Like inside, you might be freaking out. That's okay. It's your external bit, right? Just stay kind of, you know, quiet tone of voice if you're gonna say anything. And at that, you know, top of a kid's tantrum, say nothing is what I would say. Don't speak. The most you can say is something like, I'm here, that's it. Just remind them of your presence, calm presence. Yeah, but just stay like, you know, kind of calm and floppy, like I talk about floppy, but yeah, relax a little bit, not internally necessarily, but externally. So your child is not afraid.

SPEAKER_01

Really helpful. And I think the more you do that and you get and you and you see how your child responds in that moment, the more powerful and the more, the easier it becomes to get in that habit of doing that rather than meeting them in that chaos, which can be really hard. And I'm I'm hoping that the more people can start practicing this, the more people will also see it.

SPEAKER_03

And it's a lot easier to be so when you witness it, it feels really strange. Like I'm still moved by my child when she does this, and she's like, you know, she's three and a half, but she'll she has very explosive, angry protests. Very, she's a fiery little kid, and we just stay very calm, and she sometimes runs off, and all I say is, I'm here. Yeah. Sometimes I'll say, When you're ready, my arms are here. So I but that's when she's like started to de-escalate, and she like does it so much quicker now. Like me and my husband were talking about this this weekend. Like, wow, did you see that? She exploded, fully exploded, shouted at us, you know, blew raspberries at us, and then I just we did nothing, we just waited. Yeah. And she came back, gave me a cuddle, and straight away said, I'm really sorry, mommy. I was so angry. And I'm like, that's okay, you're allowed to be angry.

SPEAKER_01

Like it's so hard. I think a lot of people take it really per. I've I I know, I notice now. Um, I've tried to take myself out of it, like not taking it personally when my my children do stuff, and you know, the older they get, the more they can verbalize things and they can and they can um appear to get to the like you know, knife in the heart sort of stuff. And the more you buy into it, the more explosive it gets. But if you don't, I know that my daughter will come up and apologize to me over and over again sometimes for stuff, and I'll be like, it's okay. I I knew you were angry and I didn't take it personally. I still don't think you should say talk to me like that. Yes. But but I also knew that you were angry. Like, and and it just gets so much easier the more that you try and do that. I mean, I can't say that I do that all the time, but it it's like you can feel it in her, like that, oh, that relief of like, okay, you know, she my mum's not gonna, you know, explode at me or feel or I, you know, she's not disappointed in me, or she's not holding on to any anger herself in those moments. Like, how powerful is that?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, to just know that she can rest in like your acceptance.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's right. And I think that especially, I mean, I've got two completely different children, and one that can be very apologetic, and the other one's quite explosive and will stay in her. So, you know, there's different I I can notice different things in different in the different children as well, which is really yeah, and the way we are with children is different depending on them.

SPEAKER_03

So you have to adapt a bit like a chameleon to kind of adjust to the needs.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, because one child will have, you know, which are just different challenges in the different, you know. I find that my challenges with one Child are completely different with the other as well. Which is, I guess, that whole idea of that that parenting, you can have a what you know, you might say that you've got a style, but you've got different children, and that and that even within what you're doing will vastly be different when you're dealing with different personalities and the challenges that you have with one different to the other.

SPEAKER_03

Tantrums and meltdowns and all those kind of like big emotional outbursts, they're not a misbehavior. So, like, you know, as adults, we need to stop seeing this as this child is misbehaving, like in a shop or a restaurant. What they're not misbehaving. Yeah, they're emotionally overwhelmed and their brain can't do anything about it. So it's our job to stay calm, to be show compassion to them. And their learning process, like the things that you're doing, they happen when children are calm. So when they're calm, when they're able to go, I felt really angry that, you know, I'm sorry about that. It's about then teaching them the how, you know. So you can't say that to me, but you can feel angry. So what can you say next time? And practice it, role-play it, you know, model it. If you have an argument with your partner or you're angry while you're driving, it's a really good example because lots of people get very angry behind the wheel. Practice. And when I say this, it's really hard. Like if somebody's cut you up or is parking terribly or whatever they're doing, you're like, ah, instead of doing your usual just shouting or swearing at them, which is again really common, you know, like in a car and your child is there witnessing it. Try and do what you're teaching your child to do, which is say, This is really, you know, whatever it is, this is really annoying. This person's just cut me up. That's not right. You know, show them I'm angry, but I'm not swearing at this person or shouting or screaming. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Because I think it's about us practicing and modeling it too.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think so, and having those moments, like in just having those little anchor moments of like, oh, this is a this is an opportunity for me to do that. Yes. That's really cool.

SPEAKER_03

Behind the steering wheel tends to be a really good one for people.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I can imagine. I've uh yeah, sometimes get those stories from kids where they're like, just in the car, then, and dad or mum did said and did this, and you're like, Yes, it's that universal place where it is sometimes. Um, I want to talk a little bit about children having to show respect and saying please and thank you. Um I know that uh particularly within my family, we've talked talked a lot about this within my wider family of um not forcing manners on children and why that's important.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I mean, I think manners are important, they're you know, a social balm. Yeah, you know, they're like you know, they're a it it shows that we respect each other, it's about kindness and gratitude, gratitude. Yeah. So for me, there's like levels with manners, right? Firstly, yeah, I think they are really important. We should teach our kids manners, okay? Teaching for me is not forcing, we don't learn anything by force. So the more we tell our child to say please or say thank you, we're teaching them the words, but we're not teaching them that social bomb. We're not teaching them what this is about. And you know, the third bit is about gratitude, which is not a behavior, it's a feeling. It's something that we feel when we're in a relationship with another. And I guess there's another layer of that, again, going back to self-regulation. When children are in a heightened state of emotion, it doesn't have to be a tantrum. It can be I'm excited, or somebody's gifted me something. So often it comes around gifting, okay? Or they really want something, they want a drink and they're really thirsty. So they have a strong need or they have a strong emotion. What happens is they lose their words. Okay, this isn't rudeness, this is about their brain prioritizing emotion over language, and their brain in children always prioritizes emotion over language, okay. Language develops later, but babies are born feeling and they feel sensations, and so emotion is actually one of the first things that children start to learn about. They might not have the words for it, but they know what it that's why they cry when they're hungry, right? They feel so they communicate. So this is a similar thing. So when we our child receives a gift, and what we do is say thank you straight away, we don't give them a chance, we're not giving them a chance to just receive, feel an emotion in their bodies, consider what they're gonna say or do next. And when we just pause, just wait, you know, like one of my techniques is really just wait. That's a great one. Yeah, just pause. You want, but if you want to say thank you as an adult, yeah, go for it. But it's your thank you, it's not your child's, okay? Yeah, model again. This is modeling, it's about your child representing. Oh, oh, thank you so much for gifting that. That's so kind. You know, show them, let your child process, think. You've already said thank you, you've done the social bomb. Okay, your child saying thank you is a bonus. And I want to say this to all parents. They are learning to say thank you when you say thank you to others and when you say thank you to them, yeah, or you say please to them. If you say thank you to your child, they learn thank you because they feel the social balm. So every time you say, Oh, thank you for putting your shoes on, or thank you for your warm cuddle, whatever it is. Thank your child for all the little things that they do. You know, thank you for getting in the bath when I asked, whatever it is, they learn, oh, that feels nice. It's nice to be thanked. And then they want to do it back because they will want to do it back. Yeah, kids want to copy us, so they do what we do. Yeah, I've never asked my child to say thank you, please, or sorry. And she is possibly one of like the most polite three-year-olds. And I feel like I don't do anything, but I know that I do this. I thank her all the time for all the little things, and she's so thankful. Like we give her a meal at night, like at dinner, and she always will say, Thank you so much for this lovely meal, even if sometimes she goes, I don't want to eat it. That's fine, but she'll thank. And I, you know, I she's not a special kid, she's not, she's not I know what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's just that it's that modeling, and they're perceptive and they want to. I I think kids genuinely do want to do what other people like that's you know, socially around them is acceptable. Um, and when I I I often observe when children are forced, it it makes them feel more uncomfortable to do it, and then they feel a little bit like like anytime you're forced to do it, it doesn't feel right. And then no, and I think that's a problem as well.

SPEAKER_03

Like if you keep forcing your child to say please and thank you, it makes them resentful of you, right? It makes them like, oh, you're forcing me to say something. And then, you know, saying thank you when you don't want to say it is not gratitude. That's right. We're not teaching our kids gratitude, we're teaching them like if I get a kid who says thank you to me, but they're like, Oh, thank you, but they don't want to say thank I'm like I'd rather you kept that to yourself.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, we would rather you say nothing at all. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, because that's not that's not a social bomb anymore. That's an irritant, right? That will irritate you. Yeah, so we need to consider as adults, of course, we want to teach our kids manners. Like sometimes when I say what the conversation we're having now, I sometimes parents will say to me, but that that's not teaching them manners. I'm like, it is just trust in the process. Like, yeah, we are remember that children, again, they have incomplete brains, they're not gonna mature till they're about 25. I've never met like a 10-year-old who can't say please and think.

SPEAKER_01

No, that's right. Just give them. I've had conversations with my my children afterwards and said, Look, um, I think, you know, I noticed that maybe you didn't say thank you, but maybe next time I know that they would really have appreciated that you acknowledge that because I they went to a lot of trouble to pick out a gift or whatever it is. And you can have that conversation with them while you think it's important to remember to do that um without doing it in the moment and like, you know, say thank you, you know, or yeah, which is also interesting.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. And actually doing that conversation is lovely because you can then get curious and say, I wonder what happened that you didn't want to say thank you. Were you like so excited about the present? You know, were you overwhelmed? This is about you learning about your child too. And as parents, we're always learning about our children. And you know, our the most our greatest power as parents is when we can like see their inner world and like understand them for who they are. So don't don't be scared to do that afterwards, and like you know, your example was really beautiful, just like stick with them and explore it.

SPEAKER_01

I think it's important to have those ongoing, like that explanation. I think, I think, well, I mean know that we all forget sometimes that they don't know the stuff that we know and they actually do need us to spell it out. Like they they don't just know why we think manners are a good idea, they don't just absorb that meaning behind it. So if we have that conversation, it helps them to understand why why we believe it to be important. So yeah, um, the last thing I wanted to really talk to you about today was the transitioning children um around routines and like after school and that, because I think some I mean my kids don't go to school, but um a lot of children that do go to school or if they've been somewhere for the day, we often get the download from the day. So is there some ways that we can help transition them through those periods?

SPEAKER_03

So there's a few things. You mean coming home or going to but or maybe both back then? Yeah, yeah. I mean, different things, but sim similar in terms of like um the concept. For me, it's about making sure that you prepare. So preparation is key. You need to prepare your child for leaving you, separating from you. So this is the same whether it's for school or it's something like bedtime.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I see bedtime as a separation, too. So they're leaving you for the longest part of their day to sleep in a room, you know? So the preparation for me is about things like routines and rituals, and they're two different things, they're linked, but they're different. A routine is not a schedule, because I sometimes talk to parents who feel like it has to be like, I'm gonna make it up, but you know, bath at seven and then book at 20 past, and like, no, it doesn't have to. Like, that's a schedule, it's not that. A routine is some is like a series of steps, and you should have no more than three or four. If you have too many, it doesn't, it's not a routine anymore. So it has to be a small number of steps, and it makes it predictable for a child to know what's gonna happen next. So I have a bath and then I brush my teeth, and then I read a story, and then I go to bed, you know? Yeah, and they know. So, okay, now I'm at step two. And you don't need to name the step, they begin to learn it just because they're doing so. A routine before school also really helps, whatever it is. They get dressed. I don't know, I could tell you my child's one, but you know, they get dressed, tends to play for a little bit, she has breakfast, and then she plays with us for a little bit, and then we take her to school. So she knows like there's a little routine here. Routines really help with anxiety and predictability, and then the rituals are tiny little things that make children feel like they belong, like they're connected to you. And those tend to be like when you when you're separating, kind of little goodbye rituals. So me and my daughter like rub noses, you know, we do like a little kiss that is a bit different. Some kids do like hand clappy things, or you know, special handshake or a special hug or special words that you say to each other. These are rituals, okay? They're things that say, I'm with you, even though we're gonna stay apart. And then if we're planning for after school, another thing that really helps, particularly younger ones, but it can help at any age, you know, this is not an age thing, is to allow your child to feel connected with you while you're away. Again, this works at bedtime too. So it could be something like they have a photo of you that they carry in their rucksack or in their diary or on a keychain, like on their rucksack or whatever pencil case, a little keychain with a photo of you. Yeah. Uh you write little notes to them. Like, you know, it's like they're taking you to school with them. Yeah. You're with them. They open their pencil case and oh, mommy left me a note, or daddy left me a note, or there's a joke in the lunchbox, or whatever it is. It just allows kids to feel like you remember me, and now I'm thinking of you, and you're thinking of me. The tiny ones I talk about, the like the love buttons where you can draw like a little heart on your hand, and they can draw a little heart on their hand, and you tell them anytime you miss me, you can like either press the little heart or look at the little heart, and I'll feel it too.

SPEAKER_01

And it's like that's so sweet.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, but those concrete, so for little ones, particularly below the age of eight, they need concrete, literal things that they can see and touch to know you think of them. Otherwise, they don't know that this idea of I miss you, like makes no sense to children because they don't understand abstract.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So if you're not there with them, you're not there with them. So if you show up in these little moments, you know, the heart on that, they see the heart and they go, I think of my mummy. Or they open their lunchbox, oh, that joke is from my daddy, whatever it is, that makes them feel connected to you. And that will help when you pick them up, not with their sensory overwhelm or their tiredness, because most kids are exhausted. Yeah, but it will help with what we call like defensive detachment, which is like that they they're angry with you for leaving them. Yeah, right. So some children get really angry that you let go, right? And then they push, they do this. They want to hug you, but then they're like, ah, I hate you, or they become really anything you ask them. No, I'm not doing it. I don't want to do it, I don't want to do anything you say. Some of it is because they're exhausted, but some of it's because they're angry. They're both angry and and if you've done this collection during the day, it can really help to shrink that feeling of anger because they're like, we're still together.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's really fascinating. I've never thought of it like that. But yeah, I think that will be really, really practical tips for people. So thank you so much for sharing those. Yeah, no, I always think that um people need concrete things because it's one thing to know theoretically and another to put it into practice. So I think that was really helpful. Um, I'm gonna wrap up our interview today with a few rapid fire questions, if you don't mind. Um, so I'd like to know what your either your favorite book of all time or a book that you think that our listeners might really get something out of. It doesn't have to be um nonfiction, it could be gonna be like.

SPEAKER_03

Oh my gosh, I love books and I'm gonna struggle to find one. Uh, what can I think of? One of my favorite books, but it was just enjoyable, is The Time Traveller's Wife. Oh, yeah. Really enjoy that, but I quite like fantasy and there was a lot of connection in that book. There's a lot about how you stay connected across the years and all that kind of stuff. There's really interesting layers to that book. Yeah, cool. Um and then I have a culture club, and I'm trying to remember what we did recently. I have a culture club that I do on my Instagram once a month where we talk about books and films and that kind of stuff. But I know we did Heart Shopper, which is a TV series, but it's also a book. Oh, cool. And I know lots of parents, it's a graphic, kind of a graphic novel, like it's got kind of ah cool. So loads of the teenagers love that book. And if you've got children who are becoming tweens or teens, it's a really good book to read. Um like I often say this to parents read the books that you you know you think your child might read. Like you can't read all of them, but some of them it's really helpful to read so that you know what they're reading about. I think so. Heartstopper is um is very moving, it is like about all the best things of teenagehood, I feel. Like that's cool.

SPEAKER_01

I got a 10-year-old, so got a lot of love.

SPEAKER_03

I got a lot about friendships, a lot about mental health. It's great, it's a really nice book.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, awesome. Thanks for that recommendation. I'm keen to look into that one. So thank you. Um, where do you go to reset after a tough day or a tough week?

SPEAKER_03

I run.

unknown

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_03

Uh so I would run after a tough day, I might go for a jog. I love jogging in the woods, so nature is my kind of sanctuary. I feel like nature is really healing, and we know that, but definitely. So a run or a walk, usually it's a run, or I'll do some yoga.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_03

Um, if I've had a really tough day, like it really helps me. And where I go, I just go home, like with my family, really. Like, you know, our little core family and try and find some joy and laughter together, which tends to be quite simple because I've got a three and a half year old who delights in like the simplest things, that's you know, like silly games.

SPEAKER_01

But that's what I love about that. Simplicity is good.

SPEAKER_03

I think that that's do something for me, and then I do something like as a unit. Yeah, yeah, I think that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01

Um, if you could change one thing about the education system, what do you think that would be?

SPEAKER_03

It starts too early. So what it would be in the UK, uh, like my child is at school, she's at preschool and she's three and a half, and she's lucky because she's in a school that's Montessori, so she's actually just playing. But for me, playing is how children learn, and we know this, it fits with development, it fits with their brain. So for me, children should not be tested or do any form of like formal academics at a table, like that where they have to they're forced to sit at a table until they're about eight. Like the developmentally, it is not appropriate for them. So that's what I would change. And I would not worry all the parents who are going, ah, they'll never learn to read. They will when they're eight. Kids will learn to read so much faster, and they won't find it so difficult, like emotionally. And the kids who fidget at the table or at the desk or who can't stay still for like 40 minutes or whatever it is, they'll be able to or find it easier to, at least, because their brain and their body are in a different place. So that's what I would do. Amazing. I mean, lots of other things.

SPEAKER_01

I know it's hard to choose one. I know. Um, but yeah, no, they're they're definitely great starts. Where can we find out more about your work, Marta?

SPEAKER_03

So you can join my community on Instagram, it's Dr. Marta Psychologist. I also have a podcast called Talking Sense with Dr. Marta, which you're very welcome to. Um, it's on most podcasting apps. And I answer a real question every week. So people send me audio questions, something they want me to answer, and they're like, answer it.

SPEAKER_01

Brilliant. And I think a lot of people will be tuning in because I think the way that you have framed all of the things that I've asked you today have been really helpful and really positive and actionable ways of looking at being a parent. So thank you so much for joining me today. Your your advice and wisdom is so valuable. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, thank you for having me. My pleasure. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_01

I think we can all appreciate having not just that theoretical understanding, which I think we're all building on over time with more information that we get, but it's that actionable, those actionable strategies that help us connect with our children that is so incredibly valuable. So when we marry those two together, um, that's where we start to see that change. So I really hope that her advice was helpful for you today. I know that it was for me and helping me to reconnect and to consider some of those challenging moments that I have with my own family and helping to get back into the importance of that connection and slowing down and definitely using some of those strategies, which I think will be really, really helpful. Now, before I finish up today, I know that a lot of you are really curious about starting your own little business, perhaps in Nature Play or a forest school. And if you are, then you'll definitely want to check out our signature online course called Your Wild Business. This is a business Kickstarter program like no other. We have designed it for teachers, forest school leaders, outdoor recz, early years educators, anyone who's actually ready to take the leap into the big wide world of business. And if you want to take that guesswork of starting from scratch, and more importantly, if you want to avoid the three most common mistakes that others have made when they've started their Nature business, then head to wildlingsforestschool.com forward slash wild-business, and you can check out our exclusive training that will get you started on the right path towards your wild business journey. We also share with you our proven seed sprout blossom framework that will help you create a Nature business that's deeply rooted in community, values, and purpose. So again, that's wildthingsforestschool.com forward slash wild dash business and check it out. As always, thank you so much for joining me and listening to our beautiful conversation with Dr. Marta today. I love doing this journey with you, so until next week, stay wild.