We all know that getting children outside is good for them, but that doesn't mean that everybody that works with and for children does. That's where organizations such as Nature Play WA come in and why I've invited CEO and researcher Dr. Kelsey Prabawasia onto the podcast today to share why children really do need a childhood of play and nature and the challenges that we face to achieve our mission. I acknowledge and have a deep appreciation and respect to the elders, lands, and seas on which we work and extend this to the nations worldwide. We acknowledge the importance of sharing knowledge, culture, and stories respectfully and understand that our babies are the future knowledge keepers who will continue this journey of respect all around. I would specifically like to acknowledge the Gubby Gubby and the Cabby Cubby people of the Sunshine Coast and also acknowledge the lands on which you are listening to this podcast. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Raising Wild Things Podcast. I'm your host today, Vicki Oliver. And I don't know about you, but we have been so busy over the summer. We have many, many, many projects happening behind the scenes, and it really feels like 2023 is going to be a huge year for us here at Wild Things. One of those projects is the creation of our new social playgrounds on Insta and Facebook. And we felt like it was finally time to create a new space to talk more about our advocacy work, disrupting our ideas on education, and providing a space to support you as a parent or a significant person in children's lives, whether you call yourself a teacher, an educator, a mentor, a facilitator, or just an extended family member. So if you could so if you would like to join us as we evolve, head over to our new InstaVillage where our handle is Raising Wildlings Podcast. And then while you're there, we would love for you to share that love. Starting from scratch is mega hard work, but we know that we can serve you and the children everywhere better through this change. Welcome to Raising Wildlings, a podcast about parenting, alternative education, and stepping into the wilderness, however that looks, with your family.
SPEAKER_00Each week we'll be interviewing experts that truly inspire us to answer your parenting and education questions. We'll also be sharing stories from some incredible families that took the leap and are taking the road less travelled.
SPEAKER_01We're your hosts Vicki and Nikki from Wildlings Forest School. Pop in your headphones, settle in, and join us on this next adventure. Now I'm thrilled to introduce you today to my guest, Dr. Kelsey Prabhuasir, who has recently taken on the role of CEO of Nature Play WA. For many of us who have been invested in getting children outside, our state not-for-profit organizations like Nature Play Queensland, Nature Play SA, Nature Play Canberra, and Nature Play WA have been our guiding bodies, shining lights on all aspects of nature play and the intersection between education, health, the environment, and community. Such a role comes with so many great opportunities, but also has many challenges. And we're going to talk about those in today's episode. Kelsey also talks about some really fascinating and critical research that I believe is needed to make sure that we can continue to advocate for change and ensure that play takes its vital place in childhood and beyond. Kelsey, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. We're talking to, well, I'm talking to you here from Gabby Gabby Country on the Sunshine Coast. Whereabouts are you?
SPEAKER_04Thanks for having me. I'm over the west side of the country. So I'm on Noga Wajat land here in we call it Bulu, which is Perth.
SPEAKER_01Amazing. So I love to know how people land where they are in their professional or otherwise place in life. So I'd love to hear your origin story. How is it that you are now um steering the amazing nature play WA?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's a it's a question I'm interested in of other people as well. Um I have never been one to map out a pathway when it comes to uh a work or a career or anything really. Um, but what I have always done is follow what feels right and what interests me, um, which means I've been on, you know, quite an interesting path, really. So um I grew up in um a really kind of middle class white family uh here in Perth and had a very ideal, you know, ideal kind of childhood. Um, but I think the thing that probably started this journey for me was that when I was back in primary school many years ago, we had the most wonderful uh teacher who took us out. We had a bit of bushland next to our school, and Mr. Bigwood, his name was, and uh, he was our art teacher, and he also ran our environmental group, which when I think back now that would have been late 80s. So, you know, not something that was that common for the time. And he used to get us to do things like sit in the bush and you know, look at the leaves and paint the leaves or that kind of thing. And I think for me that was the start of feeling comfortable in a bush environment and then starting to really love it and value it. And he took us on a really cool kind of activist journey because uh the suburb next to us was um the site of some really important bushland that was going to be um developed for housing. And so the kids, the environmental group, we joined with other sort of adult environmentalists and we worked really hard to try and save that bushland. And we saved about half of it. So at the time it was devastating to me as a little kid to try and understand why on earth adults would want to bulldoze that. Um, but now as an adult looking back, I think gee, we did well to get half of it. Yeah. And now I live in that suburb, not in that development, but in that suburb, and we have that as an asset for our community, which is amazing. Yeah. So that's um, I think that's kind of where it started.
SPEAKER_01Or that just fostered that idea of being important.
SPEAKER_04And of course, you have no idea as a kid that this is going to be something that really impacts on you going forward, you know. Um, yeah, and then I sort of went through the rest of my schooling, not particularly focused on anything. Um, and then when I was at uni, I had the chance to go to Indonesia to study.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_04Um, because I'd done Indonesian at high school and at uni. And so I went on a um an exchange up to a university in central Java in Jakarta. And that kind of just flipped everything for me because that as a kid growing up in Perth, you know, everyone sort of says Perth's the most isolated city in the world. So your experiences can be pretty limited growing up in Perth. Um, yeah, so for me that was just the most wonderful, mind-blowing experience. Um, and then kind of set me on a path because while I was there, I was like, this is a whole nother kind of beauty environmentally, so beautiful, you know, tropical rainforests and rice fields, and but also so many big environmental challenges. Um, and so I kind of thought, oh, I need to do something. I have this skill in that I have both languages. I just was coming towards the end of a science degree with a major in anthropology, and I thought I'm probably in a position to be able to do something positive. Um yeah, so I enrolled in what was then a uh an honours course and then ended up doing a master's by research. Um, yeah, and you know, meanwhile my life went on, um my husband and I had kids, and I was working here in Australia in environmental education and government, and then did some consulting work, and then an opportunity came up. Um, there was a group of universities that were looking for a PhD student. Yeah, um, and the unis, there was one in Indonesia, uh University of Indonesia, UWA here, and uni of Newcastle. And they needed someone with the most bizarre set of skills. They wanted a PhD student who had lived and worked in Indonesia, had an anthropology background, spoke Indonesian, and had an environmental education background, which is you couldn't plan it, could you? Yeah, it's it and you know, if you did plan it, it would make no sense. So, you know, I was just combining all these things I was interested in. And um so that opportunity came up, and that was when I was pregnant with our third baby, and like, oh, is that great timing? Um, and it turned out to be, you know, whatever, it was the most wonderful thing. So we packed up and went uh went to Indonesia for four years while I did my research for the PhD, yeah. And my husband's from Indonesia, so it was just wonderful. The kids had time with their family. We didn't know COVID was around the corner, um, but it turned out to be just the most wonderful thing. And while I was doing my research in Indonesia, I was also uh I had opportunity to do some consulting work and um work with some community-based organizations there in the conservation field. So yeah, it's it certainly hasn't been planned. We came back to Perth kind of just before COVID, not knowing. Um yeah, and then uh halfway through last year, I uh the opportunity came up to join Nature Play here, and I'd known of the work of Nature Play and our previous CEO, Griffin, you know, I really admired his approach and the work that the organization was doing. So it just, you know, I I've learned the term happen stance, but I feel like um for me, of course, there's privilege involved with my story and opportunity and support and all those things, but it hasn't been through clever strategic planning on my behalf. It's just been, you know, following my interests, really.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, where the energy is flowing for you at the time. And yeah, clearly you are where you're meant to be at each of those stages, which is amazing. I have I'm I'm just I love hearing how people find themselves all around the place. And I just really resonate with people just being able to live a life that's just unconventional as well. Like that's that's just takes them to places and it has experiences that hopefully are making a better world, which is yeah, but what I believe you guys are doing, and I'd love for everyone to hear more about the work of Nature Play WA, because we have nature play bodies. We've got one in Queensland, uh, there's one in South Australia, Canberra, WA. Um, and I do believe there are movements in some of the other states.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But what is it specifically um that Nature Play WA? What's its role and how is it actively promoting nature play in Western Australia?
SPEAKER_04That's a really good question because you're right, we do have um Nature Play across different parts of WA, I mean Australia, and we work together as part of an uh kind of umbrella approach, but the different states have all structured ourselves differently and our approaches um structurally, our approaches are different. So um here in in WA, there's been quite an evolution of Nature Play here because uh the team started 12 years ago, and over those 12 years we've learnt and we've refined and we've explored and questioned the organization and what we're doing and how we can do it better. Um, and we have a really kind of simple approach in that we want to connect kids to nature uh through community and outdoor play. And the reason that we want to do that is for better health and well-being. And it's really that simple. So for us as an organization, when we're looking at opportunities, is it about kids? Is it about connecting them to nature? Is it about health and well-being, community? If it's those things, that's our that's that's us. Um so we don't have a particular focus um on any one area. So we work across education, health, recreation. Uh, we have a really great project with what for ease, we'll call Department of Environment here. So I think that's um by having a very clear mission on kids' nature, well-being, it means that you can work across a lot of sectors and really get the most benefit for kids.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Because we don't want to, we don't want to shoehorn this into one to one sector. So um, yeah, it also means we get to do amazing work because we get to work with all different people across WA. Yeah and um WA, and WA is so huge and diverse that uh it means there's never-ending opportunities for us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. What have been some of the biggest challenges do you find um working in this industry? Because I know that big well you're working with a wide range of people, so the challenges are going to be diverse anyway. But what are the ones that spring to mind for you that um we can all maybe know about and then obviously make some headway in trying to find some solutions?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think as a um as an approach, there's a few challenges, you know, key challenges. And I am still new, I'm still new to this role, so I'm still exploring them and learning them. Um I think one really obvious one um is understanding the broader community. And when I say that, I mean government departments, funding bodies, partners, teachers, um, health professionals, understanding the value of play and you know, what is play? What do we mean by play and what is the value of it? Um, I think we've got some real work to do there. And my observation has been that in the in early years education, and you know, here in WA, early years education really means uh zero to, well, we have kindy, so kind of zero to four, five, and then we start to really move away from a kind of play-based approach. Um, but I feel like in those, in those years, we tend to accept play for children. Yeah. But once they get past a certain age, I don't know what the magic number is, you know, all of a sudden, as a society, we don't see the value in play uh as much as we should, and as much as some other countries and communities do. So I think that's a that's a really big one. That the value of play, we one of my jobs is to explain that, that um even if we are looking at little ones that seem to be just mucking around, there's huge value there educationally, physical development, cognitive, social. So there's that, I think understanding what play is and what it means in different settings. But then for different ages, that the value of play doesn't change as we as we age. Um, and perhaps we as an approach need to use some different terms. So when we're talking about teenagers, play might not be the right word to use when we're talking about, you know, in an educational setting or in a mental well-being setting, maybe we don't, maybe we don't say play, maybe it's chill time or well-being time or you know, um Yeah, because it probably doesn't even resonate with that age group either, to call it play anymore.
SPEAKER_01Like it does, it probably isn't a word that resonates with them specifically either. Um it's just my heart like to think that, you know, beyond really year two, what I've observed is that it goes all goes out the window. It's like we've had our time now, you've had your time to play.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you've had your playtime, get on with the serious learning. Yeah. And I mean, I love I I love to use the word play just to annoy my teenage daughter. You know, do you want to go to a play date? Are your friends going to come in for a play? And it's ah, but you know, I mean, I was reflecting on it the other day and I was thinking, even and you know, uh TikTok as a as an app, there's there's problems, it's problematic. But also I was thinking it really encourages them to muck around to play, to make up dance moves, to be creative, to share. You know, there's lots of those things that are an all that are all part of play, that physical movement. And yeah, um, but you know, we stop calling it play at a certain age. And then it doesn't stop. We know as we get older, we need a release, we need fun, we need a, you know, if we come to things with a playful mindset, uh, it's really beneficial for our well-being as well. So I think, yeah, we probably need to work around, you know, what is what is play.
SPEAKER_01I think that you're right. There's like this evolution of trying to find the ways to get through to people first to bring them back to the simplicity and saying, you know what, all this time we've been talking about it as this and that and that, but ultimately it's all been under the umbrella of play the whole time. And I I hope that in the future we can just call it that and and that everyone just everyone needs it, not just five-year-olds and not just three-year-olds, yeah, not seven-year-olds, that even adults, you know, defining play for adults. And that we I was having an interesting conversation with one of my colleagues about the fact like, do adults play and what does that look like? And when in what capacity is play, is the definition of play bound strictly to children? And all of these amazing questions that that come from people who are interested in talking about it, but we can't even have those conversations with people that can't acknowledge how important it is for children.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. And I think once you in once you engage in it as an adult as well, it's maybe we'll call maybe we call it fun. You know, as an adult, if you're having fun, because we're not comfortable calling it play, you realize how how good it is for you. And and you know, I've I've recently started um having fun um with some friends, and we do, we, you know, we go dancing and and it's amazing that you encourage each other to have fun and all those benefits fall into place. And it's the same for our teenagers, it's the same for our 10-year-olds. You know, if they're having fun, chances are they're socializing, they're doing something physical, they're probably having a side chat about something because they've got the time. So I think, yeah, those benefits don't go away. But possibly the biggest um challenge that we've we've we're really focusing on here at Nature Play WA is that there's a real risk that the Nature Play movement becomes something for a certain part of the community. So generally middle-class white family. Yes, yeah, you know, and and we're very cognizant that nature play does not have to cost a cent. It's not uh it's a we always say it's a verb, not a noun. You know, you don't have schools, community groups, local government don't have to spend thousands and thousands on constructing things. No, it's literally just about being outside. Um, and so we're really focusing and and working hard on working where we're invited. Um, co-designing is a really such a big part of what we're doing now, rather than hey, we've got this great idea, do you want to do it? Co-designing with kids and and communities, and then trying to make things more accessible, so physically accessible, yeah, um, but also economically accessible um and kind of in a cultural sense as well, you know, to acknowledge we are a really multicultural society, yeah, and not everyone has the same views around the value of outdoor play. And so, you know, part of my job is to um appreciate everyone's viewpoints, but also share the research benefits of you know, why is it good for us, why is it good for our kids?
SPEAKER_01That's amazing because I think that is really important. And I think that the messaging too sometimes does look very much middle class. White children are out there having fun in nature, and you know, there is a lot of diversity within our communities. Uh, and you know, there there are very specific barriers that we've also seen with lots of different diverse groups of people finding it hard to get out into nature. And it can be, yeah, like you said, an economic reason, or it can be a belief or uh uh some sort of myth that has manifested its way into feeling the truth for some groups of people. Um and it makes me really sad. And what we always uh want people to understand is that forest school is for everybody. And I'm so glad that you guys are doing the work to do that, to make that more accessible, because um I think that for us as a private business, it can be a little bit harder to get to those touch points with like governments and all of the different areas that need to come together, which is why the work of not-for-profits like the nature play governing bodies in in each of the states is so, so important. So thank you so much for doing that work. Um I'd love to hear a little bit more about your background in research and your time in Indonesia. Tell me more about that. What was your research about and and what what kind of research are you looking at now that's helping us in the nature play industry?
SPEAKER_04Sure, yeah. Um, so my research in Indonesia, um, I started off, as I said, as part of a um uh bigger research project, and we were looking at the role of environmentalism and so kind of trying to work out where does it come from? You know, where why are some people really into environmentalism? You know, where does that stem from? And so the project looked at all different parts of the community, and my research was with uh secondary school students.
SPEAKER_01Oh wow, yeah.
SPEAKER_04So yeah, um, which is, I mean, I don't know, I say I love I love little ones, I love middle-sized ones, a lot. Yeah, I love the big kids too, you know. I love china. Um, so yeah, and and they are very insightful, you know. So they're a great group to work with. So my research um started off in Central Java, and I worked with some not-for-profits, some NGOs who are doing amazing work in the conservation field, um, to look at their approaches to working with schools and students, and then also looking within the uh school systems. So um I did uh research with a state school and a madrasa, which is um an Islamic school, an Islamic state school. Um, and really just to work out what's going on and what's influencing people and why, and how does the curriculum fit? And and really what I came out with was uh the role of culture in environmental education, because my research was in Java and Javanese culture is wonderfully strong and permeates the, you know, they have a curriculum, a national curriculum, yet the the Javanese culture is a really has a strong um impact on that. And what I was seeing was uh international environmental education from, for example, UNESCO or um other not-for-profits being given to Indonesia to roll out. And it was just a mess because no one, you know, sometimes they translate them into Indonesian, but there was no cultural understanding. So that the way a school runs, the way a classroom runs, the role of the teacher and the students, the roles of boys and girls, and you know, the importance of not getting dirty or not getting your skin any darker by being in the sun. And there's all these really important um cultural aspects that meant that these programs weren't very effective. Um, and then also the expectations of teachers to teach in a way that really doesn't exist in their system. Um, so there's still there's a lot of um movement around trying to get students to become critical thinkers within the education system in Indonesia, but it's never been a valued part of their education system. So until very recently, the most valued, you know, value was placed on compliance and rote learning and and all those um more sort of traditional approaches to education. So it's very difficult for teachers who came through a very traditional compliance-based education system to then know how to how to encourage critical thinking amongst students.
SPEAKER_01That's challenging that's incredibly challenging. Yeah. That's the students that go through in Australia that that have all these amazing the access to all the ideas, and then to still get into classrooms that think they're really forward-thinking and still move away from chalk and talk. It's it's incredibly difficult here.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. And so we saw, you know, we could see, I was also um doing work in conservation and orangutan conservation, and we could see so many of the problems are quite easy to identify the problem, but it's the solutions that are complex and um and need to be relevant to the the place. And I think that is something that we see here. We have, you know, we might, if you kind of named all the issues, we probably have similar issues. Yeah, but the solutions and the responses need to be suitable for that community.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um, and so, yeah, so just wonderful, like the most wonderful experience. I yeah, I absolutely loved it and do still keep in touch with a lot of you know friends and colleagues that are still working in that space. And I think it helps me coming back here to Australia and just realizing that if we continue, we being, you know, middle class white people, if we continue to design things for ourselves, it's really only applicable to ourselves.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And so if we want to design things that are beneficial for the whole community, the community needs to help us design them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04You know, you and I could brainstorm all day long about what is great for that community over there, but we don't know. They know. Yeah. So I think it's helped me to really keep that at the forefront of my thinking is uh I don't have to have the solutions, I don't have to know the solutions. No, the community already know them.
SPEAKER_01And that's right. It's and about remembering that there is lots of different people out there that can help us problem solve. And it's about how do we get all of those voices together.
SPEAKER_04Exactly. Yeah. Oh my god. And it's exciting because, like you said, working for a not-for-profit, there is opportunity to amplify other people's voices and um yeah, and that's an exciting part of the job. Yeah, and and those other people are often children as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's uh I've forgotten monographic that is and I I find that's one of the trickiest parts uh for us is that the end user is a child and who we design everything is around children, but who we message to are the parents and what the parents think the children want can often be, not always, because some people are really onto it. But some people just there is a real gap between you know what we've been conditioned to think children need and what they actually need. Um and that messaging is so important for us to still be able to be really to to to get our message out to parents without watering down what we actually deliver for children. And I think that is the probably one of the trickiest parts of our job in actually being able to achieve our mission.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And I think the further we get away from our childhood, the more influenced we are by messages outside of our experience that tell us this is what your child needs or this is what you should be aiming for. But really, if you could take yourself back or simply talk to children, they will they will really let you know. They'll let you know they they don't have a problem with um clouded kind of messages, you know, they know they know what feels right, they know what they like, what they want.
SPEAKER_01So in tune. All the things we want, I think that's the thing we forget. It's all the things we actually want for them as adults, but we sometimes look at them too far in the future about where we want them to be that we don't actually allow them the process to get there. And that's what I love about nature play is that it's so hard to quantify. And I think this is why I think people need to spend some time observing children in nature because it's it's like I love watching people have that heart moment or that, you know, that realization of what can happen when children. Are just left alone and how powerful that is and how much we don't trust children. But if we actually did, they just knock your socks off because they're so capable and they've got insights that we couldn't possibly plan for and teach and replicate over and over again. Um can just so naturally happen with nature. So um yeah. What um I'd love to know some more research that you think is really helpful in us delivering this message.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, well, it's interesting. As she was saying that, I was thinking about a project we're working on at the moment. And um one of the things we we did was ask kids. So it's around the uh education system. And to my mind, kids have got to be experts really. If you're asking them about their learning experience, surely they're experts worth asking. And what we found, and it shouldn't surprise me, um, but it kind of did, was what the literature was saying was what the kids were saying. So the literature was telling us that children should have choice when they're playing. You know, they should have choice of the different physical environments, whether it's uh, you know, somewhere to little nooks to hide, or whether it's big physical challenges to conquer, or, you know, big vast areas of land to run, you know, and that they should have the choice of environment and then therefore the choice of play uh and how they want to play and who they want to socialize with and focus group with kids, and the kids are telling us exactly the same thing. We want choice, you know, we want to be able to go into the early years area because they have that special playground, but there's a fence that means we can't go there, or you know, some days I want to be able to run around the lake, or you know, so the kids wanted choice, and they also told us that they could focus better when they were outside. So I have the most amazing, the kids didn't know what why who we were or why we were there. We're just talking about learning and play. And I had this year six student explain to me that when we go outside to read, I can focus better on what my partner is reading to me. And then I can ask better questions because I can focus better. And you think, this is amazing. This is exactly what research is telling us, and the kids are telling us the same thing. And then another student was explaining that after she's done something like a maths test, her teacher will often let them just go outside and hang out and swing on the swing and play. And um, I said to her, Oh, that sounds cool. How does that make you feel? And she said, Oh, it's so nice. I feel free and I can feel the, you know, the air and I can hear the birds, and it just makes me feel so calm. And that is exactly what the research is telling us. You know, that's what it does to our stress hormones, that's what it does to our body, and this is what the kids are telling us. So um, I think for me, the more I'm reading the research, the more I'm going, knew it, knew it. We all know it, the kids know it. Our old people know it, our oldies know it, our grandmas and our ancestors knew it. Um, but for some reason we've kind of gotten busy focusing on other things. So I think that educational research has been really interesting to me. That there's, you know, been reading this last week or so about the educational benefits because I don't like to necessarily focus on education outcomes in a standardized testing way, but I realize that's the system we work in. It's the language you've got to speak. It's the language, yeah. And so I was just thrilled to read some research reports that are demonstrating the educational benefits for kids when they've got time in time outside, just time outdoors. And it actually went so far as to say, even if the kids can look out the window and see greenery compared to kids that couldn't, and this with this was with all factors accounted for, you know, socioeconomic and cultural language and whatever, kids who had access to greenery did better educationally. And so for me, that's the exciting stuff because I feel like that's the stuff we can we we already sort of know that to try and uh for Nature Play WA to try and get the most for the most kids, we have to influence the big system.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_04And so, and the big system, the big education system talks in standardized testing language, therefore, we'll need to talk in standardized testing language. Yeah. And that's in addition to all the well-being and physical benefits that I think as a community we're getting better at, you know, understanding and accepting. So I think that's that's been some great research for me. But um another one that I was really excited to hear, actually to read about was um the University of Kent's Darrell uh institute did some research with adults taking it back to nature and assessing the impact it had on their well-being. And what they found was adults, it was beneficial for everybody, but it was more beneficial for adults who had had time in nature as a child. And the reason was that they associated the smell of nature with positive experiences from their childhood. And because we know that the sense of smell is such a uh it's such a memory trigger. Um, and so when those adults went back into nature, their memory associated with positive childhood experiences, and then it had a bit bigger impact on their well-being. So I was thinking, okay, so that's great. So we know for adults it's great to go back to nature because it will help them with their well-being if they've had if they've had that as a child. And then I, you know, you can't help but think, but how many of our children aren't getting that now? So in order to safeguard them for goodness knows what's coming in the future, we really need to lay down those positive nature experiences so that they can call on that when they're adults.
SPEAKER_03Wow, that's so powerful.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and and really we're just um we're just learning the benefit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And that's the thing. Sometimes I I just get lost. I, you know, we often um are always collating benefits for lots of different reasons. And I just think I think people would like will start tuning out after a while. There are so many benefits. Like it's not just uh, you know, five bullet points or ten bullet points.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And there's bullet points within the bullet points, like it's it's like it's not just it's not just resilience. It's you know, you can really dissect each of these in so many different ways. And it's so important that we know we have to know these benefits because people are ignoring them. And it's like sometimes I feel like a broken record, and sometimes I I feel like we've exhausted what what we can. And then I realize that we've just got so much more work to do, and the children depend on us, really do depend on people like you and me doing the work to show people that we all benefit, everyone benefits from children being in nature, most importantly the children, but there is a flow-on effect for all of us.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And I I do feel that, you know, sometimes I think, I mean, I'm completely into research clearly, but to do we really need it because don't we just know, you know, when you go out, when you spend a morning with your kids, you know, your family, your extended family by the river, you know, at the beach, in the park, you all come home feeling better.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So don't we just know it? You know, and and I always I always look to Indigenous communities and the Australian Indigenous people know it and have known it for tens of thousands of years. Yeah, you know, and I think, and and it's the same with other Indigenous communities across the world, they know it. And somehow we have lost that message. And yeah.
SPEAKER_01And that's what I think too. For me, it's like it's a remembering. Yeah, it's not this is not new. We are not breaking ground. This is just remembering what we actually physically need as human beings, as a part of nature, not separate from it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01We need to be there. Uh, unfortunately, we have to tackle all of this bureaucratic and language barriers so that we can be heard, so that we can go back to what we know is wrong.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I think I I think you're right with the there's so much research and there's so many benefits. Um, and for us, because we're working across different sectors, you know, the health sector and education and community, we we pull the research that's relevant to that audience, even though in my mind it's all interconnected. For the sake of that audience, we need to focus on those things. And um, we're doing some work uh in the health sector at the moment. And for me, it was new research, you know, it's not an area that I've worked in. And I was thinking, okay, well, understand that nature is good for you, nature makes you feel better, but in a medical sense, how how can we quantify the benefits of nature, you know? And so I was doing, I was doing some reading about it because the last thing I want to do is to talk to medical people about something that doesn't stack up or something that doesn't sound scientifically appropriate or or whatever. And and so I was I was reading all this stuff, trying to, yeah, that sounds great, that sounds great, but but what is it? And really, um, there's this research from the 1980s, and I'll I'll I'll read it too because it's just so simple. It says, put very simply, patient's psychological state significantly affects the duration and quality of their recovery. So when someone's in hospital, how they're feeling affects how quickly they recover, which makes total sense. And that's been really, that's been well accepted for a really long time. So we know that. And then we also know that nature positively impacts on patients' psychological state. So we know if you have a good psychological state, you recover more quickly, and we know that nature helps you to have a better psychological state. So then I was like, oh, that's actually very simple. Um, so what we're looking at here, and we're getting a um we're getting an expert from this area, Dr. Lindheim, come out from Norway to talk to us uh later in the year, because Maren uses that as part of her therapy. But once you integrate nature into uh hospital therapy, we start to see the physical dimension. So the, you know, feeling less pain and quicker recovery times. And then there's also the the things like patients feeling empowered and not feeling so part of a system that they have no control over, or um depression and stress and anxiety and all those things. Anyone who spent any time in hospital or particularly in hospital with your child, it's such a stressful time. And then feeling a sense of you know purpose and being some part of something bigger is now the research is demonstrating that put that together, you get a quicker recovery, you get a better recovery, you get longer-term recovery. So it's just fascinating.
SPEAKER_01It's yeah, it would be, and then I can only imagine you know, the flow and effect for the practitioners who would then feel a lot more empowered on how they're helping people to recover. And the flow and effect economically for the fact that you know we're not spending as much money on pain relief and number of days in hospital and all of those other overburdened hospital systems. Like there is such a solid effect from something so simple, but we need to get that message out that just because it's simple doesn't mean that it's not important.
SPEAKER_04Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. I'd also love to know per like your personal educational philosophy.
SPEAKER_04This is a really interesting one because I didn't up until this morning I didn't think I had one. Yeah. Um, and I think I think it's because I was thinking for something big, you know, what is what is it? What is it? Put some words to it. But I think really for me, it again, it's quite simple. That I, you know, I say kids, students, learners, kids are individuals and they're wonderful human beings. And that is at the core of what I think an education system should consider, that we have some wonderful human beings here, and then the rest should come. So I think the role of an education system should be to get kids to thrive and grow into the best versions of themselves. And I understand where our systems have come from and what they are and why they are, but if I got to design a system, it would be about that, about picking every child for who they are and just trying to get the best out of them. And I and I think if we could support kids to learn and be excited about learning, I think education would be such a joy for so many people. And when, you know, when we're nowhere near that. Um, but I think our approach to education really needs to focus more on equity. It's still a very, you know, it's weighted in a certain way for a certain group of people. Um, I would say student-led learning just to me just makes sense. Um, and a system that supports kids, it's really at its core, it should be about supporting them. Um, and yeah, it that's that's not where we are, but that's where I'd like to see it.
SPEAKER_01Mr. Michael, get behind. That's a I love the simple. And I think that that's ultimately, I think that's what's so good about really pairing it back and understanding and asking those questions of ourselves because if we can nail that down, then the decisions tend to be a lot easier. Like, okay, we need to make this decision. Does it help children to thrive? Is it centering? Yeah, and and it just it makes it so much easier for us in that decision-making process if we can keep those ideas at the core. Kelsey, you have been so delightful to talk to you. I just love your backstory and the fact that you're doing such amazing work and it's all research-based because I think it's it's as much as I wish everyone just knew and could feel that inner knowing. It's needed. It's absolutely needed to be able to speak the language of the people who are making decisions for our children and our community. Um, so to wrap up the podcast today, I'd like to ask you our quick rapid fire questions. So the first one, really simply, is a book that you would love to recommend to our audience. It can either be one that you've read in the past or one that you're reading at the moment.
SPEAKER_04Oh um, I just I don't even know that I could off the top of my head. Um no, I would just say no. I'll say read anything. Read anything that interests you, read anything that interests you. And same with the kids. Get the kids to read anything that interests them because I don't think there's anything not worth reading.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's you learn something if you don't enjoy it.
SPEAKER_04Yes, yes. I love like period pieces. I love, you know, and for what, I don't know, gives my brain a break. I'm not sure. But yes, so I would say anything, the value is in reading. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Brilliant. Uh, where do you go to reset after say a tough week or just a brain break?
SPEAKER_04Uh I walk, I go, I walk. Um, if I'm feeling fancy, I might get myself to the beach. Otherwise, yeah, I walk around the suburbs, you know, anywhere. I walk around looking at trees is what I do. Um, sometimes I do laps of our park and and watch how much the the little trees are growing, you know. Um, but yeah, for me, absolutely walking. Um, and then my my garden, I have a back garden that's beautiful, has a bird bath, watch the birds. Yeah. Um, and any time with my kids isn't is a reset of priorities. It's just a constant reset of priorities.
SPEAKER_01Um, I know we just talked about the education system, but if you could just change one thing, what would it be?
SPEAKER_04Oh, it'd be all the testing. It'd be the standardized testing. I don't, I just do not see the value in it.
SPEAKER_01No, I don't think many of us do. Um, where can we find out more about Nature Play WA and your work?
SPEAKER_04Well, thank you for asking. Um, so we have uh Nature Play WA, I think if you pop that into Google, Nature Play WA, there's a lot of Nature Play stuff. Uh our website is full of resources for families, for educators. We have a research section on our website. Um, so if people are interested in finding research, we have it there. Um, we also have a Facebook page, Instagram, all those normal channels. Yeah, that's probably the best, the best thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely amazing. And I think you'll have a few more people reaching out because the work that you're doing is amazing. And WA is a huge state. You have a lot of work cut out for you there. And I know that the rest of Australia is also benefiting from the work that you do. So thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. Really, really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_04Thank you for the opportunity. It's been my pleasure.
SPEAKER_01Kelsey just nailed so many of the pressing issues that we have as advocates in the nature play industry, and we all need that reminder that we have a lot of work to do, including redefining what it looks like to play, including you and me. So I'm going to challenge myself and I'm going to challenge you to find time to play this week and share your joy on our new social media page at Raising Wildings Podcast. Tag us in your fun, let us know what you've been up to, and I'm going to aim to try and do the same. You may have seen me doing this for a few weeks now, because I think it's really important for our children to see us playing as well and playing outside in nature and making that time. Now, before I head off today, I just wanted to pop in and say that if you're actually curious about starting a nature play business or a forest school, then you'll definitely want to check out our signature online course, Your Wild Business. Now, this is a business Kickstarter program like no other. We've specifically designed it for teachers, forest school leaders, outdoor reckees, early years educators, anyone who's ready to take the leap into the big wide world of business. And it's all specific to the Nature Play industry. And if you want to take the guesswork out of starting from scratch, and more importantly, if you want to avoid the three most common mistakes others have made when they've started their nature play business, then head over to raisingwildlings.com.au forward slash wild business. And you can check out our exclusive training to get you started on the right path towards your wild business journey. We'll also share with you our proven seed sprout blossom framework that will help you create a nature play business deeply rooted in community, values, and of course purpose. So head to raisingwildlings.com.au forward slash wild business to check it out. Doing this podcast is one of my favourite times of the week, and I've absolutely loved sharing this episode with you. So until next time, stay wild.