SPEAKER_01

White linen, tule princess skirts, ballet flats, designer clothing, and no bloody pockets. Today we're asking if we're restricting girls and children's ability to play by buying inappropriate play clothes. And if we're restricting one sex over the other with our clothing choices. Let's chat the genderization of clothing and the restriction of functionality and movement because of it.

Vicci

We acknowledge and have deep appreciation and respect to the elders, lands, and seas on which we work and extend this to the nations worldwide. We acknowledge the importance of sharing knowledge, culture, and stories respectfully and understanding that our babies are the future knowledge keepers who will continue this journey of respect all round. Welcome to Raising Wildlings, a podcast about parenting, alternative education, and stepping into the wilderness, however that looks, with your family.

SPEAKER_01

Each week we'll be interviewing experts that truly inspire us to answer your parenting and education questions. We'll also be sharing stories from some incredible families that took the leap and are taking the road less travelled.

Vicci

We're your hosts Vicki and Nikki from Wildlings Forest School. Pop in your headphones, settle in, and join us on this next adventure.

SPEAKER_01

Hello and welcome to the Raising Wildlings Podcast. We're your hosts, Nikki Farrell. And Vicki Olivar. Let's start this episode with a few stories of the kinds of inappropriate clothing we've seen down in the forest. And by inappropriate, we mean clothing that is unsafe or restricts movement or functionality in some other way. Talk to me about some of the things you've seen, Vicki.

Vicci

Uh look, we've seen all sorts. And probably the first one that comes to mind is children wearing skirts. And I've actually had this conversation with my own daughters quite a fair bit about the fact that they like wearing skirts, but actually it really restricts their ability to do the things that they like doing. So oftentimes they'll come out in a skirt and they'll say, Oh, actually, I won't be able to do cartwheels in this. Or um, I'm gonna hang upside down in the trees today. So that's probably not a good idea. And so when we're actually down there, is you see children wearing skirts, um, depending on the age too, because some children don't really care, um, but the older they are, the more that they do and they they will be restricted in what they can actually do because uh they're baggy and they're flappy and they make it hard to jump around and to do somersaults and flips, and yeah, they're they're very impractical.

SPEAKER_01

They really, really are. I mean, I'm sure you've seen it too, you know, when frozen was all the rage and those Elsa Frozen dresses came out, but they're floor length. The amount of those dresses we saw caught on branches, when you know, girls, generally girls, not always, we had boys in Elsa dresses too, running past, falling over, grazing their knees and tearing their dresses, and then they would just be beside themselves because the beautiful dress.

Vicci

Well, that's the thing too, because it's not so much about restricting, you know, the freedom of expression, but if it's something they cherish so much, then probably being in an H-of-place setting is not the place where we can keep it mint and pristine. Like it's gonna get dirty, it's gonna get potentially ripped, particularly those materials. Like if you're talking about ulcer dresses or those beautiful fabrics are fragile. Yeah, they get caught on sticks, they get caught on branches, they rip easily. Um, they they're not durable.

SPEAKER_01

No, and those loose flowing fabrics, they're just unsafe. They do get caught. And I mean, I've even seen, I'm pretty sure it was another Elsa dress, a child standing up trying to climb up over tree roots and up over steps, and they kept treading on their own dress and falling over as well. So it's not just the you know, billowy shape of it, it's the length as well. Now, don't get me wrong, I do I love wearing skirts and dresses, and I've even got the odd delightful moo moo, you know. Because they're comfortable, and in some situations they really are, and our climate, it's easy, breezy, lovely. But do I think they're safe to wear in the forest? No. And I we really need to treat forest school like any other work site, and we need to teach children to wear appropriate clothing, no matter their gender, their sex. Would a flowing skirt be considered safe on a construction site? No, it's loose and can be caught. So it's the same at forest school.

Vicci

Yeah, I agree. And on another note, um, we probably need to stop genderizing play and taking away functional movement and those sorts of aspects for play. And this we see mainly for girls. I mean, anyone, like we mentioned, anyone can wear a skirt. And we've had this happen multiple times. And that's a brilliant. And I wish more people felt comfortable in wearing whatever they felt like wearing. Skirts are amazing, as we've said, um, but they do really restrict the play. So let's stop putting them in skirts and dresses when they are heading out to play. It doesn't even have to be in the forest, it can just be any play environment. We really want to make sure that they are freely able to move their bodies around.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And again, like going back to that genderization, anecdotally, we do see parents and educators tell girls not to get their clothes or shoes dirty way more often than boys. And I know you've seen it, we've commented on it before. I'm like, oh my God, that that poor girl has been told three times to get out of the water with her shoes. And yet there's a boy right next to her that's had no comment. It drives me mad. And again, no, it's not just girls, not all men.

Vicci

Yeah, it's not. Um, anecdotally, though, far more often we do see girls um being concerned about it a lot more, especially children that aren't there with their parents. So if we do have a vacation care group or a holiday group down there, it's generally the girls that are more worried about getting dirty as opposed to the boys. Um, when it comes to boys, it can often be more to do with their shoes. So they don't want to get their special shoes dirty. Um, and and that's that's something that is really interesting that they would choose to wear that again, probably because they haven't had a lot of experience in being outside. And so they're not actually not being prepared for how to be outside. So they will put on, they're they're thinking more. I'm talking particularly older boys, like around eight to 12 years old, more prepared about what they look like than the functionality of their clothing. And so they chuck on their bright white Nikes or something like that. Not being prepared for the fact that there's going to be mud.

SPEAKER_01

And again, anecdotally, because I won't dubbing in any names. We've often had schools come for excursions, and by far, those inner city private school educators and children tend to be far more worried about sending children home in dirty or wet clothing. Like we've heard things, I don't know you have to. I can't go into the creek, my mum will kill me if my shoes get wet. These are 300 bucks, and we're looking at each other going, 300 bucks?

Vicci

Why do I spend 300 bucks on a pair of shoes that's gonna last them a season because they're allowed to do it?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And all educators who have been explicitly told themselves by parents not to let their children get dirty. And we don't tend to see that more uh as much in the state schools. So, I mean, we're really, really explicit in our communications to parents and schools that children and their clothing will 100% get wet and muddy when they're with us. So it's a parent's job to make sure they're dressed for the occasion. But it's, you know, my question kind of is when did families stop having play clothes? And while you were saying, when did we start worrying more about what other people are thinking about what our children are wearing rather than if they can just be kids in what they're wearing? It just society's gone a bit mad, I think.

Vicci

Yeah, it's funny, it's like that um that meme or that that um video it was sad beige clothing for sad beige children. Um you know, those clothing can look beautiful, and those photos sometimes can look really lovely, but that's what they are. They're photos. Um, they're not real life, it's not what children often feel comfortable in wearing, it's not what they would choose. I know that a lot of parents would die before putting their child in a Batman t-shirt or a um my little pony dress. Uh and that's fine because you know, each to their own. But children need clothing that they can actually feel free to do all of the wonderful things that we want them to be able to do. We want them to be able to try a cartwheel. We want them to be able to roll down. There's nothing more like the first time I watched my children roll down a grassy hill brought back so many memories and so many sensory things as well. I was thinking about the itch and I was thinking about you know being dizzy going down, but then loving it for them and knowing that they're not, you know, the adult me who's thinking about all of those things. They just get to see in that moment and feel the thrill of rolling down a grass hill. And children can't do that if they're wearing clothes that are covered in sequins or are bright white or made of fairy material that's gonna get every piece of bone grass stuck in it or whatever it is that's gonna prevent them from doing those things, uh, even jumping in muddy puddles, you know. Like, how many times are children freely given permission? And I like to think that there are lots of people that do this, but we'd like to see it a lot more. Freely given permission to jump in a muddy puddle. Just on a whim, just because you can.

SPEAKER_01

And that's the point, isn't it? At any time, are they dressed that they can jump in a puddle?

Vicci

And that's what that's what life's about. It's those micro moments. If we honestly think about our day, and I think back to those moments, particularly uh when my children were little and were experiencing things, these things for the first time and quite regularly, those micro moments are what made motherhood for me in those early days.

SPEAKER_01

That's what it's allowing that awe and wonder and being able to participate it rather than go put your adult brain on and go, oh, I have to wash them. Oh, they were those shoes were $300. Yeah. Will your children look homeless sometimes? Yes. Will mine look like he might want to sell you drugs out of a bumbag at times? Yes, there is a bit of Eche in our closet at the moment. But is that a reflection on who I am as a parent? No. And I think that that is the thing that parents get stuck on. I think we're so worried about what other people think that we forget that we're restricting our children by choosing what they're wearing for them. So again, again and again, we keep going back to this idea like they're not models, they're kids. So let's not try and mold them into our likeness. They're not mini adults, they're not symbols of our virtue as parents. Yeah, they're children. We need to let them be children.

Vicci

Yeah, exactly. Um, I had another thought too about just you know, how far we've come with school uniforms and watching those um activist children who are out there, particularly, I mean, it's on both sides of the spectrum, really, but um often starting with young girls petitioning to not have to wear dresses and not have to wear skirts and to be able to wear the same uniform that boys are wearing so that they can have the same opportunities to move their bodies in the way that boys get to move their bodies. Um, and on the other side of the coin, if if boys wanting to wear, you know, whatever they want to wear to express themselves as well. Um, I love seeing that activism from the children because they're the ones that are experiencing it and they're the ones that we need to be listening to.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. They need to be able to move their bodies without societal restriction and just be kids and have stop us adults putting freaking agendas on them. Just let them be. And on that, this one's a bit contentious, a bit controversial. Tell me your thoughts on high viz vests on children, Vicki.

Vicci

Yeah, not a fan, not a fan. Um, I understand that there are many places that feel like that is a way for them to actually get children outside. But I think that the problem with putting children in high viz vests is that it takes away the onus of the child to be responsible for themselves. It's like this veil of safety that you know, both both I guess educators and the children are under this idea that the high-vis is somehow improving the safety of the child in some way, but it's not, and actually it's another bit of flowing clothing that can get caught.

SPEAKER_01

And again, we've seen it again and again. Those high-vis, and look, there are child-sized ones. So please, at least if you're going to do it, get them as tight as you can on the children because they get caught. They get caught in trees and on branches again. And like exactly like you said, realistically, the vests are to look like centers are doing the right thing, but in fact, they pose more of a risk. So who are we actually wearing them for? Are we are the children actually feeling safer in them and actually safer, or is it just to appease parents or the department?

Vicci

The perception of safety. I think a lot of things that we observe people doing is for the perception of safety. And interestingly, I mean, you'll you'll see pictures of children wearing high-peeds vests on our socials, and they are usually people that have come to us. Um, and the only time that I've I've actually thought where they act they fit is when we've been at our City Makers and and it's more of a role-playing scenario. Like they're they're part of the workforce that are building a city, which is what our City Makers program is. Um, and in that case, that was more about role play as opposed to that wasn't anything to do with safety. Uh, but I also think that children are not used to having 15 layers of loose clothing on and they don't know how to manage themselves in space with that that extra clothing on. So you need to think about whether or not it is actually improving the safety or not of children, because there are definitely other ways that we can keep kids safe and to keep eyes on them without having the colored vests on.

SPEAKER_01

And that's the thing. I think, you know, the idea is if a child goes missing, which with your active supervision, your boundaries, and your safety briefing, that shouldn't be an issue. But even if it is, a hat, a colorful hat, is way less of a danger than a vis a high-vis vest, or just ask them to wear bright clothing. If you're if that's the thing, if that's your one safety measure for if your child goes missing, that's a problem because they can take that off anyway. That's not actually if they're leaving in a tantrum and they're in a huff and they're smart enough to know that they're looking for you, they'll take it off. So that's it's not again, it's that false sense of security. I think we need to be practicing our safety measures, our safety drills, and all those things rather than relying on a loose, dangerous piece of fabric to missing.

Vicci

Exactly. And you know, doing regular head counts, um, you know, they they're part of your procedure as opposed to just seeing that that that colour. And also when you're trying to be in nature and learn about the environment, high vis isn't is there's there's something wrong about you know natural. It's not natural, it's like it's like you're not you're not sending the message the children are a part of nature. It sends this. You just nailed it.

SPEAKER_01

I can never articulate why I hate them so much. It's that it's jarring.

Vicci

It's jarring, it's it's sending the opposite message, like we are separate from nature. That's why we put this little vest on because we're he visiting nature. It's a it's a visit, not you know a dangerous visit. A dangerous visit at that, yep. Not being part of it. And and I think that's that's what gets me about them in saying that if it's something that you do as part of your procedure in getting children outside, it might be worth just having a reflective talk with your team and asking yourselves why and going to your upper management and saying, let's really have a think about this and um is this the right safety measure or practice for children and what we're trying to actually achieve by taking them outside? Yep, agreed.

SPEAKER_01

And while we're in Rantville, can you tell it's 7:30 at night and we've been on the computers all day? We've got a lot to say. Let's talk about the genderization of clothing. Like, why the hell is most girls' clothing still pink, covered in fairies, unicorns, and princesses? And why are boys' clothing still blue and black and covered in monsters and trucks and animals? I mean, I like animals. Am I not supposed to wear these things because I've got female genitalia?

Vicci

So frustrating.

SPEAKER_01

I know, and before anyone comes at me, I know children can choose clothing from any section of the children's wear aisles. My question is, why are there still genderized sections?

Vicci

Well, the thing is, uh they those unconscious unconscious messages is, you know, when you go there, it's like, well, here are most of the clothes that I generally wear. And they don't think to go and look that there isn't even another section. And I know I unconsciously would like it, it takes me a while to think, oh, well, let's go have a look in the boys section. There might be something that you really like there instead. Uh and then, but then I've even heard them say, you know, that's boys' clothes.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, my my children have done the same. And it's frustrating that we've got friends, children that love rainbows of both genders and unicorns of both genders and mushrooms. Like, why can't they just love particularly nature like or anything really? Like, yeah, and then the sexualization of clothing for young girls also it riles me up, and I don't have girls, so I can only imagine what it's like for you. Like, why on earth are girls' shorts only barely covering their butts, but the boys are down to their knees? And why are girls' shirts cropped at you know, four, six, eight, ten years of age, and boys are long and baggy? Like, stop sexualizing young girls. Like, this is a message, fashion industry, take note. Yeah, it's it's freaking annoying.

Vicci

Yeah, it's it's annoying even as an adult. I I look at fashion trends for women and I think, no, more material, please. Like that might look good on some people, and even if it does look good on you, like it you'll still get cold, you'll still get hurt because you're exposing parts of your body. Like it's got nothing-standing old now. Yeah, but it's got nothing to do with um what you want to wear, could be, but it's like we swing too far away. Like sometimes I look and everything's cropped, all of the jumpers are cropped. I'm like, how is a cropped jumper helpful when you're cold? Like, I it needs to have length. Like it's frustrating that we're having to sift through to find practical clothing because practical clothing can still look good. And it should have only pockets, it should have pockets.

SPEAKER_01

This like male-dominated fashion industry like seriously needs to listen up and smart up. Like women, girls, and boys need and want functional pockets in their clothing, like no pockets or fake pockets, which oh, they just don't cut it. Like, where on earth are children or me expected to put my shelves and my rocks and my coins and my phone? Like, where are we meant to put that stuff?

Vicci

Yeah, exactly. I I mean, I when I walk the dogs, I need somewhere to um put my keys and to put the shells that I find and my dog poo bags. Like I can't leave the house. Like, I don't want to walk down the beach with a bag. Like that's ridiculous. And it's the same for children. They don't want to be restricted. And also, I don't want to be a handbag. I don't want to be the child's handbag. Hey, mum, come and hold my shell, hold my stick, hold my rock. They have pockets and be able to hold it themselves.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. And why do men get to shove their phones and their wallets or entire pizza boxes and elephants and houses down their freaking pockets, and we just can't even fit a credit card in it.

Vicci

Yeah. Because the credit card won't fit because pockets not real.

SPEAKER_01

It's like I'm at that point now that I refuse to buy clothing without pockets, including dresses, but like it's so unfair. Poor, poor privileged me. It restricts my choice in clothing. Like there's been so often I've gone to buy like the perfect set of jeans or the perfect dress, but it's got no pocket. So back on the rack it goes.

Vicci

Like, yeah, it is. It's incredibly frustrating. And I've seen it done well, so it can be done. So I I would like to hope that more. I think the tide's turning. I do see I feel like it it comes in waves. Sometimes I feel like we're really heading on the right trajectory, and then I feel like we step back in time, depending on the season. So hopefully more people are taking notice or making enough noise about it. Uh and yeah, like getting through to parents that we really need to be investing in play clothes. And in by investing, that might mean going and looking at thrift stores and op shops and hand-me-downs and things like that. Because that's you can still get good quality stuff. And particularly if you haven't had to pay a lot for it or it's been handed down, you'd be less likely to be worried about it. It getting really dirty, messed up, or ripped, and all of those things.

SPEAKER_01

I've got one more thing I want to add before we finish up, and that's a quick note on shoes, because again, it's something we see really often, even though you know our all our communication is enclosed shoes, enclosed shoes, and we even put descriptions of what we think are the easiest kind of shoes to wear, but we still see thongs or you know flip-flops if you're listening from the States or jandles in New Zealand, whatever you want to call them in your country, they just don't cut it in the forest. They've got no grip, they're slippery, and they break in the mud. And this goes for hiking and rock hopping and things. Same with ballet flats and even gum boots. And this is probably gonna stir a bit up as well. Gum boots are great for splashing in puddles. That's about it. They're terrible for rowing.

Vicci

They're a wet weather clothing item. Uh, and they actually need to be paired with something so that water doesn't fall fall down into them.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, waterproof pants over the top of them to actually work how they're meant to work.

Vicci

That's right, because they're not great for climbing trees. Um, they can be quite slippery. They're yeah, you're not I don't think you experience the connection between your foot and the surface when there's a lot of gappy room in gumboots, as opposed to other types of enclosed shoes. Um, so yeah, it's very interesting to have to try and really drill that home about the types of shoes that children really should be wearing in order to maximize their time outside if we can't let them go barefoot. So obviously barefoot's great, and maybe that's another podcast in itself, but there are times when shoes are going to be essential. In Australia, there's a lot of burning concrete and bindies in the summertime. So even if you do want to go barefoot, sometimes it's just not practical.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So the go-to then is just a simple pair of old runners. And if they can't tie their shoes yet, Velcro. At least then educators can help with their shoes really easily, and we're not having to worry about getting, you know, urine on our hands when we're tying shoelaces for children as well.

Vicci

All this ranting to say our top three tips for empowering girls and all children to use and move their bodies without societal and movement restriction and dressing safely for play are number one, buy from op shops, or better yet, lovingly accept hand-me-downs with pockets that are not too loose, baggy, or flowing, and a gentle reminder that skirts and dresses aren't really a safe option and often stop children from climbing trees due to not washing, wanting to flash their knickers, um, or it obstructs their vision when it falls down over their face.

SPEAKER_01

It totally does. Number two, thongs, gum boots, and ballet flats are terrible for running and climbing. Choose a runner that laces up or for younger children by runners with velcro fasteners.

Vicci

And number three, clothing should never restrict movement. It should be practical and comfortable, not be expensive or precious or delicate, definitely not white. So if you don't like removing stains all the time, um, so like our grey water goes out into the garden, so we can't even use bleach. So if you can find a more environmentally friendly option than bleach, the planet will obviously thank you. Um and if possible, something that's hard wearing. As we said, op shops and hand-me-downs are the best. Let's just let kids be kids and dress them in clothes that they can actually play in. And the fashion industry, we demand pockets and stop sexualizing. Sexualizing our children.

SPEAKER_01

And until next week. Stay wild.