Vicci

Do you want to get outside more but you're stuck on what you need to get started? Well, we have some advice for you. I'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which we're recording today, the Kabi Kabi and Gubby Gubby people. I would like to recognise the continued connection to the land and waters of this beautiful place we call home. I also recognise Aboriginal people as the original custodians of this land and acknowledge that they have never ceded sovereignty. I'd like to pay my respects to all Gubby Gubby elders, ancestors and emerging elders and any First Nations people listening today. Welcome to Raising Wildlings, a podcast about parenting, alternative education, and stepping into the wilderness, however that looks, with your family.

SPEAKER_01

Each week we'll be interviewing experts that truly inspire us to answer your parenting and education questions. We'll also be sharing stories from some incredible families that took the leap and are taking the road less travelled.

Vicci

We're your hosts Vicki and Nikki from Wildlings Forest School. Pop in your headphones, settle in, and join us on this next adventure.

SPEAKER_01

Hello and welcome to the Raising Wildlings Podcast. We're your host Nikki Farrell.

Vicci

And Vicki Oliver.

SPEAKER_01

Now we're going to start with this simple idea. You don't actually need resources. This is the key. If you don't bring resources, the children will find things to play with. From years of experience, reflection, and professional conversations, the overall idea is that the resources that you personally provide should be at a minimum. The less, the better. If you do provide resources, think about items that are useful and will extend the children's creativity. So let's talk about getting started with tools. Vicky, what are some of your favorite tools? Or what are the if I could only have enough money to buy three tools, what would your top three be?

Vicci

If you're really wanting to be selective, my top tools that I would recommend, number one, would be drills. And I love drills for a number of reasons. Number one, children are absolutely drawn to them. The look on their faces when they give them a go for the first time is absolutely priceless. And the type of drills I'm actually talking about is not like a hand power drill. I'm talking about like a hand crank drill. It sort of looks like one of those olden day egg beaters. And they're really common in really intricate woodworking. And you'll often find them. We found them when we first started out. The ones that we found, first of all, were in old farmers' markets and on marketplace and on gumtree and things like that. And they're quite rusty and needed a bit of TLC. Um, and if not, those sorts of drills also palm drills as well. So um that that's probably that would probably be pick number one for me. What do you think about drills?

SPEAKER_01

I love those egg beater drills, but I really also love the old, old school bitten brace, the one that you have to put your hand on the top and kind of move it around in a circular motion. You can't see me, but I'm making that motion right now. Again, that's so good for the you know, across the body motion that we're looking for in child development. And it's almost like patting your head and rubbing your tongue. You can see the children's like tongue sticking out and they're concentrating so hard to get it working. They just love getting their hands stuck into things that work before their eyes, you know, it's that real work. And the palm drills.

Vicci

Yeah, and the the palm drills are great. Um, just back to the those other drills, though. I what I love about those is they are easy to achieve a success with. I very rarely see those not working and children not being able to see the little bits of sawdust coming out. That's when you know that you've got it in the right direction because funnily enough, they do have a forward and a reverse. Yeah, and and um, other than needing a little bit of pressure from the top, they are really simple um for children to be able to use. And for whatever reason, children just love putting holes in wood.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and they will they would do it for hours out one of our log seats down in the forest currently looks like we don't have woodpeckers in Australia, but it looks like a woodpecker or wood borers have attacked it, and it's just because children uh go to it, which is completely fine with us with the drills. As my youngest would say, it's his word of the year. It's so satisfying.

Vicci

It really is. I find it still satisfying myself. Um, you know, a child passes it over and and I'm like, yes, I get to use the drill. And then palm drills are great too. They do, I do think they're they're great for beginners. And um another, especially if you've got a softwood, palm drills really work. It has to be soft wood. So they're not going to work if you've got a seasoned bit of timber that you're trying to drill a hole into, but they will work really well with something quite soft and uh a really safe and easy way to get started and inexpensive. And you know what? You only need one, you can just start with one drill, and children have to take turns, wait their turn to have a go. You don't need to have 20 drills. In fact, we wouldn't we've never had 20 drills.

SPEAKER_01

No, no, it is as part of again when you could talk about forest school, it's all social emotional learning. It's it is turntaking and sharing or not sharing and dealing with not sharing, it's as important as the actual practical skills themselves. Um my second favorite, I would almost I would almost put this above drills. I think these might equal two, would be just your old school saw. Like, and there's heaps of different saws, and I've noticed that many early education centers are drawn to the mini hacksaws, I think just because that's what they can get in the you know, those education wholesale catalogs, and you can find them at your local hardware store. But I mean, take it from us, we tried them too. But those little hacksaw blades, A, they snap so easily, it's just so wasteful. And people just end up not replacing them because they break so often. But they're also confusing for children, they'll because they're still getting coordinated, they'll sometimes put their hands through the middle of it and tangle themselves up, and it they're just not as safe. They look safer, but they're not as safe. So I would just go for your standard run-of-the-mill, old school saw, and and that's it, and a saw horse.

Vicci

Yes. Do you know it's funny? I'm the I'm the wife of a carpenter. I have learned so much about tools, in particular saws. And I think that's the mistake that people make is that a saw's a saw, and they're saws for different reasons. So it's worth knowing what the saw is used for, and that's why the hack saws don't work, because a lot of the time they're actually used for intricate woodwork, they're not used for actually sawing large plants force, like large branches and sticks or pieces of timber. Um, they're actually used it for different purposes and sometimes not for timber at all. So uh I think that's the mistake a lot of people make is they see something and they think, oh, children could use that, but they're not a child's tool. They're an actual tool that adults use and for a very specific purpose. And we can't just transfer that purpose to children just because they look child-sized. But then in saying that, having tools that are child size is actually really essential, also. So, you know, that's why knowing the ins and outs of the tools can be part of the learning process and something that you, if you're really interested in getting outside, something that you'll want to learn so that you A, don't waste a lot of money in buying tools that don't work, uh, that don't do the job, and that make children feel unsuccessful because they're using them for the wrong things because you don't actually know how to use them.

SPEAKER_01

And I say that from experience because I was gonna say this is because we've had an education in hand tools over the past six years.

Vicci

My husband's like, what are you using that for? Like, I'm using this to cut a branch. And he's like, No, that's a timber sore. I'm like, Radio, lessons learned the hard way. And yeah, there is, there is, I mean, that's why Bunnings is massive for those of you that live in Australia. That's why hardware stores are massive. The selection's huge because technology's come a really long way. And what we're doing down in the forest is we're actually using really primitive forms of tools. We're not using electric tools, we're not using bandsaws and electric saws and power drills and all of those sorts of things. It's so much more satisfying using the manual types of tools that we use, um, which is, I guess, why we also love the handy hammer. Uh, that's also a really great, easy tool to start with. Um, there is some tricks to using hammers, also. Um, as we're creating the course, I remember putting together information on hammers, and I was like, wow, you know, when you know the tool well, you can use it well. So yeah, you know, the more you know about the tools, the better you are at helping children to understand and to be skilled at it as well. And they're not using it willy willy-nilly and also not going to injure themselves by using it for the wrong reasons because they're not toys. Um, we can use them in a way that helps us to create things and to be playful, but they are still a tool and they still do have a purpose and we have very clear safety procedures around using them as well.

SPEAKER_01

I want to reference your podcast that you did with Celia Hogan from Little Kiwis a couple of weeks ago where she was talking about life-altering injuries versus uh learning injuries. And I think the trusty old hammer is a perfect example of this. Like people freak out about seeing children with hammers, but nobody learns to use a hammer without banging their thumb. So, you know, there's there's other ways we can help um achieve more success with a lower risk of injury. And we've got things like nail pegs and nail holders so you can keep your fingers away from the hammer. They're amazing, they are an incredible little invention for especially for the early years. But at some point, when you're learning to use a hammer, you are going to bang your thumb. And hopefully the worst you're going to do is bruise it, have a few tears. You may pierce it, and this is why we try and use new nails and screws where we can in uh early years in particular. But also we wash it, we move on. It's a it's a learning experience. Nobody's going to die from hammering their thumb with a nail. I don't mean to be blasé about that, but we really we are really overprotective of our children at times.

Vicci

Yeah. I I think that's important to distinguish. It's it's not that we're being blasé, it's that I think that we need to recognize that we have to be accepting of some risks and some uh negative outcomes that aren't earth-shattering. Um we know see their children getting hurt.

SPEAKER_01

No.

Vicci

Um, but we still need to give them the experiences. And to give them the experience means that, yes, sometimes they may end up with an injury. Um, but I also want to add, and what I mentioned before, you reduce the risk of injury if you actually buy child-sized tools. So one of the mistakes you can make is to buy an adult hammer and then wonder why the children keep banging their fingers because they're off balance because the tool is not right for their dexterity, their development. And if they you were to swap that with a child-sized hammer, which also happens to be lighter, lighter, they will achieve more success, less likely to hurt themselves. Um, and so it's a much better, safer way of allowing children to use tools in the forest, and you can feel a lot more at peace. And I mean, when it comes to hammers, we've I don't I I can't think of many times that that we have logged an incident report for a hammer.

SPEAKER_01

I think the worst hammer injury we had was someone again using it as a toy and not a tool, and was digging with a claw hammer in the dirt rather than our fossicking hammers. See, we have two different hammers for those things as well. Um, and they drew sand up into their eyes.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Again, that was just an eye wash and they were fine. But it's again, there's a tool for every job, and that's teaching our children. Oh, if they had used the fossicking hammer, they would have been fine. But the claw draws the sand backwards. So that's part of it. That's part of the learning, is there's a tool for every job.

Vicci

That's it. So if you're thinking about, you know, what tools should I start with, I think that a drill, a saw and a sawhorse, and a hammer are a fantastic way to get started, a fantastic way to feel comfortable managing children outside with tools. Having one of each is absolutely fine. I mean, you don't take down 50 buckets. You usually have, you know, one or two for children to share and they have to take turns. And the great thing about being out in the forest is that most of the time children are so scattered and varied in what they want to work with that for the most part, not all of them want to use the tools at once anyway.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. Just a quick note also on sawhorse, because we haven't gone through what that is. And I know I didn't really know we call them sawhorse, but actually what we're referring to is a sawbuck. So it's a X-shaped cradle that will hold the timber. And again, there's ways you can use it that are fine, and then there's ways that you can use it that children will be far more successful and far safer as well. But essentially it's so that children can hold circular wood like branches really safely and not hurt at people around them as well. So that is a great addition to any early years, center or school as well.

Vicci

They're so cool. I remember when we saw them for the first time when we did our initial training, and I thought that it was just genius for so many reasons. The size of them, the fact that there's only one. So when you're normally wearing using saw horses in an actual traditional carpentry sense, you're using two of them to be able to and safely house. It's not even housing, it's just resting a piece of timber. Uh, so if you were using sawhorses, you'd have to take two of them down, whereas the sawbox just one foldable contraption. Uh, and the fact that because we are in the forest, we're not using milled timber. So it is circular. It is circular. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And it takes away the need for clamps and vices as well. So it's less things to be carting around. So 100% sneakily add that in as our fourth thing.

unknown

Exactly.

Vicci

It goes along with the saw, can't really use the saw and wouldn't really recommend using saws without a saw buck at all. Um not in the forest. Not in the forest, no. Uh, there are other types of um garden pruning tools that you can use, uh, but any type of proper saw, you would definitely want to make sure you're using a saw buck with that as long alongside the appropriate PPE that uh we that's essential for anyone using saws in our programs.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. All right, let's move on. What other things would you add to your toolbox as your programs grew?

Vicci

Well, if you're looking for yeah, if you're looking for inexpensive items to get you started, uh things that you can include are like a mallet. And the thing with mallets is there you can get a rubber-headed mallet or a metal-headed mall mallet. Now, clearly, a rubber-headed mallet is probably the way you're going to want to go with children. Um, and they can be used for lots of different activities as well. So it might not necessarily go with your tool kit, it might actually go with cubby building or even your fire kit. Um, pliers are also really handy in uh more of a craft sense.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, especially the pointy nose when we're doing things like uh magic wands and fishing rods and anything with that craft wire. Those pointy nose pliers are a real asset.

Vicci

Uh wood planes, maybe uh as something that you could um introduce as just a not with an outcome in mind, more of just to use the tool.

SPEAKER_01

And just be aware with wood planes. Um, they're not great on bark, so really um textured branches, and children love to pull them apart. So what I would do is not probably keep them in your toolbox, but like exactly like Vicky said, bring them in every now and then, teach them how to use it for a particular thing, and then take them back out of the toolbox again, because otherwise you will be replacing blades and nuts and screws and all sorts of things.

Vicci

Oh, that actually reminds me also of the drills. Um, there are certain drills where you actually need a little key to unlock and lock the drill chuck the where you put the drill bit in. Because if you don't have one like that, they've children just they know how to unscrew things and they don't know how to put it back together.

SPEAKER_01

They want to know how it works, they don't want to know how to put it back together. And if you lose one of the little um chucks, what do you call those bits? Claws.

Vicci

Yeah, the claws on the inside, or there's there's they're they're all different, but there's just bits on the inside.

SPEAKER_01

That was yeah, all the bits, because you can take the whole head off of some of them too. You can take the drill bit out, the chuck, the claws, the head. So go for the ones and we sell them in our shop that you can't undo without a key.

Vicci

Yeah, and also the one that we sell, you actually have you use a screw to screw it onto the top. So you'd need a screwdriver to actually undo that. Um, so yeah, they're they're great.

SPEAKER_01

Hot tips, we've learnt the hard way.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I would absolutely, now that I'm thinking about it, not in the toolbox for the children to use so much. And I'm not saying that they don't use them. I think a pair of SNPs is great. Uh, but on your person as a forest school leader or educator on your Nature Play program, oh, I would be nowhere without a pair of SNPs in my bum bag.

Vicci

Yeah, absolutely. And uh hot tip the $10 pair that you find at the local hardware store might be cheap that day, but it racks up when you're replacing them every other week because they do you will.

SPEAKER_01

The springs constantly come undone so then they don't close properly, so then they're not safe to be carrying around. So don't waste your money. Invest in a really great pair of SNPs straight up and you'll save money.

Vicci

Yeah, it's hard to spend a lot of money on something like secateurs, but it's well worth the investment.

SPEAKER_01

And on that, you know, as you get bigger running your own program, especially if it's in a private business, you'll start getting bigger and bigger groups. So some of the inexpensive, or you know, we could call them fillers, I guess, the things that you can put in a lot many children's hands and not need huge ratios would be things like screwdrivers with screws and nuts for with wrenches and spanners. There it as long as you add a bit of non-treated timber, you've just created all of a sudden a great construction kind of building loose part zone. And the children love it. Throw the drills in there, boom, happy, happy, happy children.

Vicci

And there's a reason why there are so many of those replica toys, plastic wooden construction sets with spanners and screwdrivers, because children love them. Why not give them the real deal?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, because they get really frustrated with those plastic ones because they don't actually go into real wood. You'll find they'll get those kits and they'll take the plastic screw and the plastic screwdriver, and then they'll try and do real work with it because that's what they want to do.

Vicci

That's right. Yeah, and it a lot of those, they're just putting them in place and not actually making a hole, like it's a pre-drilled hole. Yeah, just putting it in a hole and twisting the screwdriver as opposed to actually making the hole themselves. Um, or you know, and that's where the drill can come in as well, because you can pre-drill and then um pop screws in with the screwdriver. So there's lots of different ways that you can scaffold and extend the use of the different tools and using them together to create a larger project.

SPEAKER_01

I've just had a thought too. For those big groups, cardboard is incredibly fun. Um, but sticky tape, don't ever let a group of children next to sticky tape because it'll just stick on. And it's so wasteful and it's plastic. So we love uh something called a make-do kit. They're bright blue press, we've just been speaking about giving them real tools, but for cardboard, they're perfect. They come with a little plastic screwdriver and a whole set of screws, and you can screw cardboard together. Yes, you can create walls and houses and all sorts of things with them. We've seen some incredible creations using those kits.

Vicci

They are fantastic, they're actually a fantastic resource because they are part of your loose parts kit. So they they really do allow children to experiment with that creativity.

SPEAKER_01

Yep. All right, and as you get more confident, or your children are getting older and they're looking for extensions on those tasks that they've been successful at, what are some other advanced hand tools you can add to your kit?

Vicci

Well, if you followed us for a while, you'll know that we are huge fans of whittling. So adding a a single whittling knife or maybe even starting with a vegetable peeler. There's lots of different ways in which you can introduce whittling, but whittling is like without going on about it, it is one of the most amazing activities. That you can do in terms of mindfulness and being connected with slowing down. I just love it so much. So that that's probably so great. You could use other carving tools. You could also experiment with wood burners, maybe as you say, for like maybe some older children, for younger children, maybe even things like a fossicking pick, something like that.

SPEAKER_01

We've had children have loved the fossil king pick. It's definitely probably out of all the tools, ironic, well not ironically, funnily enough, that's been the one that's caused me the most anxiety and letting go of my own fears around it. And again, that was just because I didn't know at the time how to teach children to use it safely. And once I did, I was like, ah, here's a couple of tips.

Vicci

Yeah, exactly. You can manage it. You can see when children aren't using it safely.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. But it does need supervision, just like an axe.

Vicci

Exactly. Uh and which we're coming to axes, uh, that's been one of our favorites to that we've used at the moment when we've been camp, we've been camping a few times recently, building the fire. And uh it's one activity that my girls absolutely loved doing with their dad. Um while I sit back and watch them build the fire. They have been um creating kindling with the axe. So they are very proficient at using that now. And again, it's all about knowing how to use it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And if you're looking for a gateway drug to using an axe or, you know, that introductory tool, then a kindling cracker. Oh, that's been one of the best things we've introduced to our Forest Kidney sessions in the fire season. It's a cast iron, how would you describe it?

Vicci

An upside down axe where you're not having a permanently fixed axe. Yeah. So it's sort of the blade faces up in a cast iron frame. The timber sits in sort of like a circular section at the top on top of the blade, and then you use a mallet or a hammer or something of the like, or even another piece of timber to hit the timber, and so it's actually split from the bottom. So it's really safe.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so instead of swinging a sharp axe, you're swinging a rubber mallet onto a piece of wood. So the safety level, it's so safe. And again, it's so satisfying. Children line up for it. They just love being able to crack these great big bits of timber. Like they feel like superheroes. It's a it's it's a really great um tool to achieve success before they're ready for an act.

Vicci

With a purpose in mind as well. You know, like that's not just a tool for the sake of a tool, which we think is fabulous. It should, you know, you don't always have to have an outcome, but it is a fantastic tool that has a purpose, that children are actually achieving success and moving through a series of steps in order to get to the end goal.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I want to bring that back to what you just said on all of these things, it is process over product. Like children don't need to be, you know, we're today. We are sitting down and we are hammering a photo frame. Today we are whittling a bow and arrow. It can just be here is the tool, here is how you use it safely, go nuts. And that's we're focusing on the process, the skills, the resilience, the grip. Going back to those learning experiences when I was talking about the hammer potentially causing injury. If we don't let children try these things and fail or hurt themselves in minor ways, you know, this is our generation are whinging about the generation coming through about not having grip and not being Brazilian, but we're taking away every single opportunity they have to grow that muscle. Like it's a muscle and it needs to be tested over and over and grown over and over. So tools are such a beautiful, brilliant, satisfying way to introduce that.

Vicci

And if you would like to learn more about using tools, then we are your gals. We're actually putting together a course, Cordwild School Skills, and learning how to use tools with children is one of our favorite modules. Um, so if you're interested in learning more about that, you can head to raisingwildlings.com forward slash wait list to find out more because we would love to see more people outside using tools with children, and we certainly have many, many years of experience in learning the hard way to tell you all of our tips and tricks.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, let's go build some resilience muscles.

Vicci

Well, we love doing this journey with you, so until next week, stay wild.