Vicci 0:00

It may seem a little dramatic, but the once beloved childhood rite of passage of tree climbing is now a dying art for the modern child. The statistics on children and tree climbing are heartbreaking, and in this episode, we discuss the ways in which we can build our own confidence in allowing and supporting a child's right to climb. Before I start, I'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Kabi Kabi and the Gubby Gubby people. I'd like to honour their song lines and storylines and pay respects to the elders past, present, and those that are emerging. I'd also like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which you are listening to this episode. Welcome to Raising Wildlings, a podcast about parenting, alternative education, and stepping into the wilderness, however that looks, with your family.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Each week we'll be interviewing experts that truly inspire us to answer your parenting and education questions. We'll also be sharing stories from some incredible families that took the leap and are taking the road less travelled.

Vicci 1:00

We're your hosts, Vicki and Nikki from Wildlings Forest School. Pop in your headphones, settle in, and join us on this next adventure. Hello, welcome to the Raising Wildlings Podcast. We're your hosts, Vicki Oliver.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

And Nikki Farrell.

Vicci 1:14

The joy of climbing trees to travel up through the sprawling limbs and stand all the way above the ground seeing the world from a bird's eye view. There's something so magical about it. Nikki, you've got lots of special memories of tree climbing.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Yeah, they were my safe haven as a kid on the farm. It was where I used to escape my brother and sister, who I love dearly. But sometimes when you're, you know, you're a child and it feels like there's nowhere to go. Cause I shared a room for years as well. I had a Capricorn tree at the back that I used to hide amongst, and also some great big Chewet gum trees that we used to climb in and sit up there as well and had a great big rope swing. So yeah, trees were a large part of my childhood. And uh yeah, I can I mean, even thinking about those space spaces bring back that sense of nostalgia and childhood.

Vicci 2:05

Does we were just recently back at my grandparents' house and they have a ginormous mango tree, not unlike the one you've actually got on your property. And I was showing the girls where the old platform was that we used to sit up and we used to hide from um uh little friends that we had that weren't able to get up into the tree. Uh and the platform's looking a bit dilapidated now, but it was such a haven. It was a place where, you know, that feeling of like this is where I'm meant to be. Like this is where, you know, if I had nowhere else to be, like if I think about my future and and what my future looks like, to me, it was there's a few things. It's like being up in the in the trees, it was being in near a waterfall or being in a rock pool. Like those key areas as a kid, I just thought that they were the most magical places in the entire world. And that tree brings back that memory for me.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Yeah, there's something like a womb-like state when you're sitting up there, that sense of calm and peace and the sound from the leaves rustling and that bird's eye view that it's it's magical. But if we compare what we felt as a child with the current statistics of today, today's children, it's so sad because we now know that one in four Australian children have never climbed a tree.

Vicci 3:24

This always floors me. It floors.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

I know. In Australia, you know, we're meant to be this outdoorsy country and we're meant to be, you know, a bit rough and a bit tough and a bit rugged. And yet, quarter of Australians haven't climbed, haven't like never. This has never climbed a tree.

Vicci 3:43

Yeah, that's right. And I mean, I wouldn't believe it except for the experiences that I've had in public spaces where my own children, actually, all four of our children, were asked, and I've I've met we've mentioned this before on the podcast, but all four of our children have been asked to get down from a tree in a public place from security guards. And it was probably one of the first times I've publicly had to advocate for our children. Um, and I felt so uncomfortable. I thought, no, damn you, that's not right. Like, what are you worried about? Like, why is this your liability? I'm uh they're my children and they are not in any way at risk. Wasn't even a big tree.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

It wasn't even a losing tree.

Vicci 4:29

I have so many photos in my of my camera of my kids in trees, and I might even post some like a little montage of the hundreds and hundreds of photos I've I've got of them since they were able to almost walk.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Yeah.

Vicci 4:44

Um, so it just seems so baffling that we have such a strong reaction as a society to seeing children in trees and going from going from a place of knowing that's where we lived as children to now saying it's too scary, it's too risky, and children don't belong there.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Uh it's because it it's it's so sad. It's so sad. And again, I know we've talked about this before, but it's not just a once-off experience, but the vacation gate care group we had that lined up, had them lined up in a bloody line, and they got placed, like literally picked up off the ground, placed on the branch, which was what do you think that is a meter? It's not a meter and a half, I don't think it might be a meter and a half. Yeah, maybe at its high climb point, which is the goal for children to get to. Placed in there, given about 10 seconds in there, picked up, put down, next child. And I looked at again, I I didn't advocate that day. No, but I think it was I was just flabbergasted. And I think I just kind of looked at them and went, if you really think that that's okay, I don't think I'm gonna be able to convince you anyway. And I'm probably making excuses for myself, but I I think it was just such a shock.

Vicci 5:56

I think it was equal parts bizarre, but then also there was a part of me that was like, we can bring this back, we can bring tree climbing back. Like the children clearly want to be there because the line was yeah, long. There was a line, there was a line, there was an actual line of children waiting to have their 25 seconds in the tree. Oh my god.

unknown 6:18

So it's sad.

Vicci 6:19

So, and I guess that's I get when I think about it, the challenge that we have now is how do we sit back and uh and watch and allow. And I even feel funny about allowing children to do it.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Like I don't even remember it being do you mean your own children or do you mean children in our programs?

Vicci 6:37

I think both. Like about like, did my parents allow me to be in a tree? I think I was, I just went and did it. Like it wasn't, yeah, I didn't need to seek permission. Yeah, and now it's like, how do we allow? Like, I I often think about the language that we're using now, but how do we allow our children to have that experience of being in the tree? And and I think it's we need to give ourselves permission to support them in this.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

Yeah, because it's crazy that we're even talking about it. It's ridiculous that we have we have to have a podcast that we literally, Vicki and I are advocating to bring tree climbing back, but that is how bad it's got. And we're telling you, we're on the ground and we see this all the time. People don't even realize it's happening. We have to do this so that people bring tree climbing back. I'm definitely serious.

Vicci 7:26

And and the thing is, in order for you to get to that point, I guess we've got to deconstruct it and show you how we did it. And I uh and how did we become so confident in allowing our children to climb? My goodness, we were filming some tree climbing footage the other day of your son in the trees, and it was phenomenal to watch him just moving around the trees like it was nothing.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Like a monkey.

Vicci 7:54

Like a monkey, like literally his movements were so fluid, but he also had he he did all of the things which we're going to talk about, but it is a skill.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Um, and it's a learned skill.

Vicci 8:06

And we can make it safer and put our own anxious minds at ease and find some middle ground. So I think that's where we're at with so much of what we do. It's like we shouldn't have to, but we do. So, how do we find that middle ground between letting them do the things that we used to do growing up without having to seek permission or need permission to, you know, and then the other end of the spectrum saying no, it's too risky. So where's that middle ground? And that's why these programs that we run are so important because people do need their handheld.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Well, we're educating the educators.

Vicci 8:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Giving the educators permission that it's okay to do.

Vicci 8:44

That's it. So how do we help children get up into a tree, Nikki?

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Trick question. We don't.

Vicci 8:52

We don't.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

And I think this is probably a bit controversial for some people too, especially when you know if it's your first child and you really want the, you know, that photo up in the tree. I can tell you right now, if you put that child up in the tree, they're gonna ask you to put them up in every tree.

Vicci 9:05

Well, that's the problem. So I think for me, it's it's not that we don't want them to have the experience, it's that if you do it for them, they will consistently ask for your help. And that's not what we're trying to achieve. And it's hard because um when yeah, particularly little children are watching older children in the tree, they want to get there, they want to be where that older child is, and there is a clear progression of their skills to get to that point.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

So and the problem is they can, once they're in the tree, they can climb up higher generally. The problem is then that you probably can't get them down.

Vicci 9:40

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

That then becomes the problem.

unknown 9:43

Yeah.

Vicci 9:43

So what we really one of our golden rules, one of my rules very quickly became because I probably did start by putting them on some limbs or limbs to get them started. But then after a while, that became annoying and also not feasible. So we I went with their developmental and physical limitations. And so now we say if you can't, it's not only can you get in the tree, it's can you get down again? So it's finding ways to help them get in the to help them find their own ways to get into the tree and and be able to think a few steps ahead. So that conversation happens a lot, like explaining to children, you need to be able to get up and down the tree unassisted. Otherwise, we might not be ready. And exactly that, I can't come and get you. And the thing is, and I think I'd like to talk about this a little bit more. Um, honestly, it's not safe.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

No, and that's something we forget. It's not that I can't come and get you.

Vicci 10:45

I can come up to you, but getting you down I can't chuck you on my back or throw you on my hip and then scale down a tree like I don't have a possum. It's like me. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

It feels like it. It does feel like it sometimes you've got 10 children hanging off you, but it's not safe. It's not safe for you to go up there and rescue your own child from a tree. It's way far, far more dangerous. There is real skill to tree climbing, and there's some actual real life tips for parents and educators who are supervising tree climbing. So, Vicky, what's the first one?

Vicci 11:16

So I'm gonna reiterate what we just said. You actually need to wait to see if your child shows that they're ready to climb a tree and that they want to. Like, we don't want you pushing, forcing, coaxing your child to climb a tree because you want them to. Um, there's two sides to that. It's children wanting to climb further than what they're capable, and those children who aren't ready, and you're like, tree climbers the best. We want you in the tree. Like, you know, they need to be ready. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Yeah.

Vicci 11:42

Um, so as I was saying, the challenge, what we see here is your younger children seeing the bigger ones who are competent, capable, swinging around like they were born for climbing. Um, they've absolutely mastered it and wanting, and this children want to fall in their footsteps. So we actually have to help them more in this point, in this part about their big emotions and their disappointment and their frustration. Because that's actually the first step is the desire, but they don't have the skills. So you have to help them through those emotions of not being able to get there yet.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

You're amazing at this. You're I wish you were my netball coach as a child. Like you are an amazing coach. Have you got some tips for things that you've used and things that you've said to um to help children navigate those hard emotions when they can't climb the tree because they're not ready for it?

Vicci 12:33

I think one of the most powerful statements is wow, you know, look how high they're climbing. They must have done so much practice to get up that high. I know you want to be able to do that. Where do you think we could start so that you can learn how to do that? You know, it's it's validating what they want and then finding a way for them to get there, finding the way to start. And, you know, it there's a little bit of distraction there, like validation and a little bit of like, we're not going to get all the way up there, but where can we start?

SPEAKER_00 13:02

Yeah, or where's a different tree that you can like there's small achievable tasks? We talk about that in forest school all the time. How can we make that a small achievable task for you?

Vicci 13:10

Yeah. Um, or something like, I can't put you up that high. Um, you need to be able to climb up yourself and get back down. Is there a way for you to get up by yourself? Can you see a really low branch? Like help them to see and observe a way for them to achieve that.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

And risk assessed too. Like if they say there aren't any and I can't reach any, then you're kind of like, well, that's the answer. Yeah. You're not ready for that tree.

Vicci 13:34

Yeah, I can get you to that branch, but how do you think you'll get back down? Like I'll find that really hard to get you back down again.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

And never forgetting the yet, maybe you're not ready for that tree yet. Yes. Let's find another, another tree.

Vicci 13:46

That's right. And there are some great trees that lend themselves so well with their branches, you know, reaching right down to the ground, which I guess is the second tip is starting with small, healthy trees that have really strong, stiff limbs that are easy to climb. Um, so you're looking for things that aren't going to bend under a child's weight because smaller trees can like they're if they're not the right type of tree, they'll bend and then that's you your child won't feel safe in that. Or they'll they'll have a false feeling of safety because they're climbing it, but it's not a safe tree to be in.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Yeah, and there are some of those trees like gums are really great in general, but there are some other trees that are really common, particularly in our area. I'm thinking, you know, jacarandas and things that do have that real and points, that real bend in their branches, that they're not great for climbing unless they're they're really thick, established branches. So yeah, having those really open and clear conversations with children and showing them how and what we're thinking when we're assessing the safety of the branches, because that's how we pass on that knowledge, you know, that oral storytelling as well. Oh, I remember when I climbed a jacaranda and that branch was really scary. Or yeah, what tell them about your near misses.

Vicci 14:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

People know that have fallen.

Vicci 15:00

My sister um fell out of a franchipani tree when we were in Fiji um the day before Christmas. I was so devoed. Um, because franchipanis are so brittle, and the and I I told her I wanted a flower right at the top, and the and the branch just snapped. Um, and that was a hard lesson to learn because we just didn't know about that tree. So um that because franch pennies are quite common. No, no. No, no, an absolute no no. Not only that, they're full of sap, sticky sap. Um, and they won't hold weight. So, you know, it's not your job to know every tree. Um, but you can give them a little bit of a test. Test it. Yeah, with your own body weight on some of those lower branches to show them, you know, well, if it can hold my weight, it's gonna be able to hold yours.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Yeah. Can be really, really helpful to some children to explain the mechanics of your body and how to best use them, particularly those children that maybe you don't have great bodily awareness. So, you know, what I mean by that is well, you you know, your hands and arms are for grabbing and guiding and reaching for tree limbs, but your feet and your legs are for pushing and climbing. Because a lot of children will try and pull themselves up with their arms and not do anything with their legs. But of course, you know, you your glutes and your thighs are the strongest part of your body. So any rock climber knows you're you're climbing with your legs, actually. So we try and teach the children to do the same.

Vicci 16:23

And and that will help them to remain strong and not fatigued by it, but also it will ensure that they've got those three points of contact that we talk about so so much in in tree climbing. It's like other than you know, the golden rule of not not pushing kids and allowing them to climb when they're not developmentally ready. Three points of contact, two hands and a leg, two legs and a hand. Um, and that's what I was saying about um your son in the tree the other day. He was moving around like nothing else, but he had three points of contact on that tree at all times. It was fascinating to watch at the speed he was going through that tree.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

You'll be pleased to know he said today, I'm a little bit sore under my armpits. And I was like, Oh, what have you been doing? He goes, uh think I was the would have been when I was showing off in the tree.

Vicci 17:14

Showing off in the tree. Well, he did, he was he was very impressive. And I I just, you know, I see them doing it all the time, but it still impresses me because I wish that my body still worked like that.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Your youngest has one of the best rock climbing finger pincher grips I've ever seen in my life. Like she's like mission impossible style rock climber.

Vicci 17:37

And they just love it, don't they? Like they they genuinely just have such a deep love for climbing.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

They do. And I I think because they're body, they're so body aware in those situations and they've been doing it, they're strong, so they feel confident in their situations too, which is another really important thing is to get out of the way. Move, parents, get out the way. Yeah, it's it's probably we supervise and not supervise, we hover too much. I'm not saying don't supervise your children. What I'm saying is stop hovering, stop being that anxious, overbearing helicopter parent, and allow your children to find that mastery because with mastery comes confident. You know, there becomes that point where every parent needs to trust their child to do it on their own. You step back and bask in it. Like you said, you were you were basking in it yesterday. How nice that you were doing that for my child. But it's amazing. All you're there to do is support and guide them if they're in trouble. But once they gain a little confidence, you can allow your child to do it independently, like like we used to do. So many of the things we talk about, we all did without that one-on-one 24-7 supervision that our poor children stuck with at the moment. Yeah.

Vicci 18:58

Yeah. I think um when I when I also think about it, it's we have to think about the impact that we have on our children by our constant hovering in our narration. So I think that it's important for us to stop and think about these things whilst we're watching our children climbing a tree. Like, am I giving this child the space and time to actually plan for themselves or am I jumping in too early to preempt what risks they need to assess? And I think that there's going to be uh like a spectrum of where you do this. So when you're first starting out, you might narrate it a fair bit to make sure that they're thinking about things that you're thinking about. But can you give them a bit of time to see if they'll find those things without your input? Like how quickly are we jumping in to risk assess for them, even if it's a or a risk assess along what we're saying alongside. And it takes a bit of practice and it will be in response to the age and skill level of your child. And younger children do require a bit of narration or children with uh specific needs might need you to point out things a little bit more or a little bit more often, but then you need to start thinking about okay, can I step back from this a little bit and see if they can come up with their own process and ask them instead of narrating it, check in and say, what are you thinking? What's what's your what's going through your through your head? And I've done this with my kids before um in a different situation um when they were jumping in off like a sand ledge into some water. And I was just curious and I said, How'd you risk assess that? And she goes, I didn't. I said, Oh yeah, so how did you know you could jump in there? And she goes, Oh well, and she listed, she goes, I know it's deep because I can't the sand, I can see the sand here, and then it gets really deep here. And I've already been in and I've walked through there. So I know I was like, Oh, so you did risk assess them to you know sometimes that process is so quick in your brain. That um, you know, you need to stop and make sure that you're not doing it all for them.

SPEAKER_00 21:00

Yeah. And I think even when we are narrating exactly, exactly what you're saying, then it's not the be careful, it's the questions, the leading questions that are making them think for themselves. Because our generation of parents, I think we need to be really mindful of the inner voice that we're creating in our children. And I think we're not going to see this impact. Well, I can say, I frankly, as a high school teacher, I was seeing it as one of the reasons I left was that children, teenagers were not resilient. They doubted their decision making. Well, they couldn't make decisions because they doubted themselves, because they didn't trust themselves. They didn't even have a voice, they didn't even know what they thought.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

And I know that's I'm not painting a whole generation, but the mental health issues, these children aren't having the time and the experience to be able to test these things for the out for themselves.

Vicci 21:50

So And it starts with this little stuff.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

It is the be careful, they'd be careful. Are you capable? You mustn't. Are you okay? Like, oh, I don't know if you're real capable of that, you know. Let them try.

Vicci 22:01

That's right. And when you check in, it's showing that trust. It's showing, you know, I'm just I'm just checking in because I what what I'm doing is I'm I'm trusting, but I I also love and care about you. So there's, you know, it does both of those things. It's it's allowing them giving, you know, showing them that you trust them, but also that you care.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Yeah, without ruining their experience and taking away the joy of tree climbing by being too involved. You know, again, like how can we give our children the space to explore, be present, ruminate, you know, let their brains run, process the emotions of the day if we're constantly there in their brain all the time.

Vicci 22:43

I also think about um actual proximity as well. So like if I'm standing under the tree, am I making them any safer? So I'm curious, and I'm not saying that this is the right, wrong answer or what you're thinking, but I'm curious to know if you pause and you think about where you're standing, do you actually think that you're making them any safer? Is it are you standing there because you think you'll be able to catch them or break them at their fall? And if you're not doing it for that reason, why are you so close? So can you perform the same supervisory visory function at a bit more distance? Which I'm I'm curious about that. So I'd love if you have done this or you do this, what do you think is going through maybe subconsciously? Um, if you are standing really close or under the tree and you're doing that because you think it's a safer place for you to be, how are you increasing that safety by standing there? I'm I'm just curious about that. I feel like that's a really great reflection. Because I feel like maybe it feels like we would break their fall if they fell. But I can guarantee that.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

Maybe we're doing it so other people can see that we're supervising our child in a tree. Maybe that's it. I've definitely done that. I've definitely been under a tree, not concerned about my children at all. But I'm the flag announcing that my children have somebody to watch them.

Vicci 24:06

Yes. Because that's a huge, right? That um decided pressure.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

Yeah.

Vicci 24:12

Yeah. And uh recognizing it and and having that knowledge that we might be doing it for those reasons, I think is an important part of the conversation too. Because we I still I still have that.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Oh god, we yeah, everywhere we go, we still can't.

Vicci 24:25

Yeah, we're still like, oh, should someone be over there? Should someone just let them know that they're not just random children?

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Just do the wave across the playground. Happy's mine. You can see them just about shaking their head, oh heavens, heavens, what will happen to this child?

Vicci 24:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

I don't know. Hopefully be resilient. He's hoping.

Vicci 24:43

He's hoping. Um, and then I just wonder if we're ruining their experience and their joy by being so involved. So can I give them space? Can I be present without being intrusive? Because um, I know that if I was sitting up in the mango tree at my grandparents' house and my mum was underneath there, I don't think I'd have the same memories that I do now.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

Same.

Vicci 25:05

Wouldn't be the same at all. In fact, I'd probably wouldn't even go up there. Like, where else can I go that I'm not gonna have someone watching me?

SPEAKER_00 25:12

But it is, and this is, you know, we talked, we've talked about risky play in previous episodes too, but children need secret spaces. And a tree is not only uh feels private and sheltered and mysterious and magical, it's also got that, you know, nowhere else do you get that bird's eye view, especially as a small person, as a small child, to be able to get up high and get that little bit of risk and smell the leaves and the breeze and feel the sun on your cheek and be away from bloody mum who won't stop nagging me to do the dishes and my annoying brother, like it's a safe haven, so let them have it.

Vicci 25:44

Do you know I was actually thinking it's you know, they get to look down instead of having to look up all the time, don't they? Their whole lives are looking up at us. When do they actually get to look down and be and you know, they're with with that height comes the feeling of power as well. You know, that's why we say get down to the same level as a child, because you're using your size as power over children, and we get down onto their level. Maybe being up high allows children to feel some semblance of power that they probably otherwise don't have in their lives as well, like that symbolic power as well. All of the things that tree climbing evokes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

But this is we are clearly passionate about that. Um, but I hope you are too. I hope you all have really fond memories of of trees as a child. And if you don't, go and hug a tree. I hugged one yesterday, the day before. Oh, good. I haven't hugged a tree in a long time.

Vicci 26:41

Yeah, do that more often. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and if you are feeling unsafe about your child being in a tree, you can just calmly ask yourself, do you feel safe? So there's lots of wonderful alternatives to be careful. Um, and we have lots of tips on what to say during Risky Play. And if you want even more tips, take it even further because you really, really want to support this as an educator. You can absolutely find out more with our online course, Wild School Skills. You can check it out at raisingwildlings.com.au. Uh and we are so passionate about giving people the skills and not just the skills like the minute. It's the it's the very small details that make a huge difference in supporting this sort of play and making it easier for us and safer and make us feel just confident. We don't bat an eyelid about it. That's what I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

It gives you the confidence when you've got that minute and the planning and the group management and all the paperwork. That's it.

Vicci 27:50

That's it. As always, we love doing this journey with you. Um, if you've been climbing a tree this week, show us in your instagram. We'd love to tap in your photos. So until next time, stay wild.