Gazing up, selecting a branch, and finding your way up into the canopy of the trees. You're on top of the world. Until you look down and suddenly a panic sets in. It happens. Sometimes children have a moment of trepidation and need our support and guidance to navigate the downward journey. In today's episode, we give you our four top tips on how to help children down a tree without you having to climb up to get them.
SPEAKER_01Hello and welcome to the Raising Wildlings podcast, where your hosts, Vicki Oliver.
SPEAKER_00And Nikki Farrell.
SPEAKER_01We're talking about tree climbing again this week. For the most part, like we want to talk about it again because children are really quite capable and excited to get up a tree. But the other day, I was uh at one of our favorite spots. There's this amazing labyrinth of trees over at Chambers Island, and it's got this cottonwood tree forest. The branches start all the way from the ground. It is honestly one of the best places for children to play. I'm pretty sure there's like some possums that live up in the tree. It's honestly in there.
SPEAKER_00It's like a treasure island.
SPEAKER_01It is, and it's got a bridge that you cross, and the water's generally like crystal clear. It's just phenomenal. Anyway, there was a little boy having a small panic when he realized he'd climbed too high. And he and he called out for his mum to come and get him. And it just made me think. And I thought, you know, we've just talked about tree climbing on the podcast. And one of the things we didn't talk a lot about is what happens when children have this moment of panic. And it's the coming down. It's the coming back down that is often the problem. It's not that, you know, they're quite capable of getting up. They can, they're not, they've got that goal in mind. I'm going to get to here or where's my next place I'm going to put my hands. And then all of a sudden, oh my gosh, now I have to get back down. And I think it's happened to most children at some point. Um in this moment of panic, like, and and then as the parent too, like, oh my goodness, what am I going to do? How am I getting my kid back down the tree? Like, I can't go back up. I can't get there. I can't go up there and get them. Not only may I not be able to climb, even if you are a capable climber, we which I think we talked a little bit about last week, is I can't come up and get you and then help you back down. Like I need three points of contact on the tree. I can't then have you in my like, how do I get you down again?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I've been in some hilarious predicaments where I've been in short skirts, or I've got a toddler that needs a snappy change, or and one up the tree that needs help, or it just can't even reach the child in the tree.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So then we like to get them down in the end, exactly. But it is always like, uh, I let them go too high.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. But I had a lot of time to think and research about this. Um it's it's a really natural thing, that moment of panic that does happen. There's actually a biological explanation for what can happen to anyone that's at height. So it happens clearly when children are up a tree and then they turn around, come back down, and they're like, oh my God, I can't. But I've seen it happen to lots of people. And I think I've even had moments. Um we often call it vertigo, but it's it's a very specific feeling where you're like, oh my goodness, I don't, I don't all of a sudden feel very safe. And then you're well. Yeah, you can start to have those actual like physiological reactions. Um so I think it's helpful to understand this so that we don't feel like we have to call a fire brigade because we can actually use this information to help them down. Um so we're gonna focus on what happens when the child has that uh-oh moment um and they have to climb back down, and their confidence is wavered. And what we actually, what they're actually experiencing is height vertigo that's being activated. So I think for the most part, children who aren't afraid of heights. So I think there's it's a really clear distinction. Children who climb up really high generally aren't afraid of heights, like they don't have like a that clinical My eldest, not zero fear of heights. Zero fear. So it's not a fear of heights that's being activated when they look back down. It's something that scientists refer to as height vertigo. So I'm gonna deconstruct this a bit because I didn't realize that this was a thing. So at height, your perception becomes really warped and the distance to the ground feels a lot further away than it is, and then because of that, our nervous system kicks in. So fight or flight, flight, flight or flight, but more likely in this scenario, which is freeze. So when that happens, we can often get that feeling of spinning or feeling dizzy or a little bit nauseous when we're up high. And and that's what we're calling hype vertigo because vertigo in itself can happen without being at high, it can be anywhere, can't it?
SPEAKER_00You can just get vertigo. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So when you have hype vertigo, there's an intersensory mismatch where your visual information is at odds with your vestibular and proprioceptive inputs. So what that means is what you see is different to your sense of balance and where your body is in space. So we keep our balance due to the feedback from nerves on our skin and our muscles and our joints, as well as in our eyes and our ears. So when you're standing really high on a tree branch and the ground is far below you, it's difficult for your eyes to make sense of what's going on because the senses in your feet and your brain tell you you're standing on something. And the neurons in your ears tell your brain that your body is upright. However, your eyes can't see the ground clearly, and you don't have that reference point to confirm that you're standing up. So then your senses are just going, hey, why going, oh my gosh, this doesn't make sense.
SPEAKER_00And you just nailed it. Like you as you're describing that, I'm going, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Oh my God. Because I I don't think I have a fear of heights. But the older I get, the more of this I get. But I can justify it. I know I'm not that high. I'm not worried about the like falling, but I've this is not, I don't like it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's it. That's it. And how much, how much more empowering is it to know that it's not like a an irrational fear? Like it's got nothing to do with fear, it's actually got to do with our sensory system. So and it is completely different to a fear of hypes because you can have hype vertigo without a full hype phobia. And the scientists are putting down to that conflict between your eyes and your brain. And when you can't accurately determine the ground's position, or it doesn't seem right with where you're feeling because your body's like, I'm on a concrete, I'm solid. It doesn't have that point, that concrete spatial reference point, it causes that dizziness and disorientation. And the brain tells you you're in danger and it triggers your fight, flight, freeze response. So it's so helpful to know the next time your child's in a tree or even yourself, when you're suddenly doesn't you don't feel great, you can understand why. And then you can use that and have some tools in your back pocket to coach the child safely back to the ground.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god, I feel better already.
SPEAKER_01I just found it so fascinating. I was like, this is so helpful.
SPEAKER_00It just when you put it like that, you go, ah, that makes sense. Poor brain. Like, but now I can tell my brain that it's okay, brain.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and we can think of some ways to bring balance to that system. Um, which is like I guess why people say don't look down.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, which you've got tips. And I mean, it's funny because we've been giving children tips for years of how to get down trees safely and confidently. I've just finally understood why they work. Yeah, because like you said, it's don't look down. I've never I've just thought, oh, but it's because you're scared when you look down, but it's not that. So give me your top four tips of trying to help children get safely in the ground and navigate that fear.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. So the first not fear, navigate that yeah, yeah. Because I mean, it does kick, like I guess you go from feeling dizzy to feeling scared because you're like, oh my gosh, how do I get down? So the first tip is to remind your children to just follow the same path or to remind them that they got up there. So there's a safe path up, which means there's a safe path down. They know the branches are sturdy, they that it can hold their weight. Um, and so we know it's doable. You know, like that it's not like there was a one way up and then there's you've got to find a different way down. There's a clear path still there. So that's probably the first tip to sort of ease their mind. But then what we need to do is to try and integrate the senses. So we're gonna remind the child to keep their body close to the trunk and facing towards the tree. Um, we call this the koala climb. So it helps them to position their body facing the most solid part of the tree and their eyes focused on something that can recalibrate that nervous system. So the eye, what the eyes see and what their vestibular and proprioceptive inputs telling them match together, which makes sense, right?
SPEAKER_00This works all the time. But often when children go to get down, they go to get down so that gravity is pulling them backwards. And they look down below them and they feel like they're being pulled as well. But when they turn around and hold on like a koala would, suddenly they've got they're hugging it. That might feel a bit nice too. But it's funny how when we go up, we go up one way, but we seem to want to turn around and go almost head first. Children seem to go head first.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, spinning them back around and go, no, no, no, koala climb, it does really help.
SPEAKER_01And I guess uh it's making me think too of like when you're on a boat and um like even with seasickness, and they say, you know, you're looking out at the horizon, it's the same sort of thing. You're trying to match, you know, what your senses feel in your eyesight and and and looking right out. Um but then when you're on a boat and you're going down a ladder, like I've tried to do it even in my adult life. I'm like, I'll just go down forwards. It's the most ridiculous way to get down a ladder on a moving bouncy boat. It doesn't work. You have to face the ladder and go down backwards.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um and it's the same, same sort of, I guess, um, concept.
SPEAKER_00With children. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and then if you once, you know, you've you've said to them, you know, we can get back down, let's get closest to the tree trunk as we can. Um, then we can give them some clear instructions of where they can lower their feet. So this is where we're giving them verbal directions about where they're lowering their foot. So you can be like, it's nearly there, it's it, it's a you're nearly there, just tiny bit, you know, how far away your foot is to the next branch, or um, you know, just to the left a little bit, you'll find a really good branch you can use. Move this hand here. Um, so giving them those very clear instructions means that they just don't have to think as much.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And it is that's that scary feeling of not being able to see where you're putting your foot. Whereas on the way up, they're so focused on where their hands are going. They're often not too worried about where their feet are, but they can see their feet more easily going up than they can going down. So that's right. That coaching really, really helps. Don't forget if you're an educator or you're helping someone else's child to ask for permission to help them if you need to hold them, say, around their hips or their bottom or whatnot, just say, hey, I can reach you now. Is it okay if I support you around your your hips? Yeah. Again, just modeling it, you know, they know it's not sexual, they know it's not predatory. Well, we're assuming, yeah. But getting that consent is really important because, you know, you're just helping children know that they're still they're still in control of their body and that will help them too.
SPEAKER_01That's right. It should always be back to bodily autonomy and body consent. And um, you know, the more we model asking for permission, the more they will come to accept that that is how we work when it comes to our bodies and they won't take it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think even in that sense, it's it's giving them a bit of power back too. It might not be about the tree climbing directly, but they're making a choice that feels empowering, like yes, yes, you can or no, you can't. Or I've got to do this on my own. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, if you can reach my butt, I don't want you to touch it. I'm gonna jump from here.
SPEAKER_01Um, and then I guess the last tip of you know is to just remind them to take it slow and to breathe. So is I guess that then is it all about how you talk to them. So you need to make sure you don't have panic and frustration in your face.
SPEAKER_00Be regulated, try and regulate yourself.
SPEAKER_01Yep, you're co-regulating with them. So um, it's a lot harder, I think, if you're a parent, um, because we can get to frustration and annoyance with our own children quicker than perhaps.
SPEAKER_00It's so much easier coaching someone else's child to come out of a tree than my own.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, 100%. So uh, you know, just being mindful that, you know, we we can co-regulate them through this. And if we start to get frustrated or panicky, we're definitely not going to help the situation.
SPEAKER_00I was just thinking, just going back a little when we were talking about um, you know, the brains pretty much getting scared because they're having the mismatch of senses, I think our children would understand that as well. So even giving that information is you know what's happened right now? Your brain's gone into freeze because you know the eyes aren't matching what the feet's feeling and what the eyes are seeing. And and I think that's probably too much for younger children, you know, clearly. But the older children, if you're giving them the you know, the facts, so you it's but you can coach your brain back out of that fear if you just stare at that tree trunk right in front of you and hold it like a koala.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And I think that so much about working with children, we forget that they don't know so much. It's our job to point out what seems like obvious things to us, to them, in a gentle and kind and respectful way. Um, and then that goes so much further for them to be able to manage those situations and think, you know, if I do get flooded in my brain, okay, I I can maybe this has happened to me before, and my my teacher told me that there was a mismatch in my brain. And maybe it's not even they won't start beating themselves up about how they're feeling and just trying to find a solution or slowing themselves down because this is how we're showing them examples to regulate and to problem solve in those.
SPEAKER_00And separating ourselves from our our shame and guilt around the things that our bodies do and not attaching them to ourselves, I think is so important too.
SPEAKER_01Do you know what I'm also really curious about is to see if they, you know, eventually do some research into the antiphobic effects of risky play, um tree climbing, um, and the incidence of like a fear of heart acrophobia. Like I'd love to see someone do that study. Um, maybe there's absolutely no correlation, but maybe there is. Maybe, you know, the more we allow children to experience these risky, adventurous just play, just just play, um that maybe it would go a long way into helping people not feel so phobic about things that we're commonly phobic about, and you know, heights, spiders, snakes, um, fire, all of those things.
SPEAKER_00Um I just thought, sorry, my brain is like ding, ding, ding. Um I went to Alison Davies, you know, a previous podcast, I don't know, month, two months ago, and singing as well. I think making not making light, but bringing music to something. So one of my favorite songs of hers is that every little cell in my body is happy, every little cell in my body is well, and just singing that and getting that mantra so that your brain's focusing on the positive rather than the fear as well. It might work, it might not, but I think music always helps.
SPEAKER_01It does. And storytelling too, like you know, those using those moments in time to create stories out of it so that we can make sense of things that were scary or unknown and and um yeah, that that sense making that children need.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that debriefing too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, storytelling can be a really powerful way to do that too.
SPEAKER_00And in the meantime, if you're interested in more ways to support children in their pursuit of spending more time outdoors and engaging in adventures like climbing a tree, please, please, please help join us and be a tree advocate, tree climbing advocate. Then come and take a look at our Wild Skills course, which you can find more information on at raisingwildlings.com.au. The more of us that normalize this, the more resilient, determined, confident, and competent our children will be. And I think, you know, I think we think we want our children to be happy, but they can't be happy without those skills. And as always, we love doing this journey with you. And until next week, happy tree climbing and stay wild.