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Dr.

SPEAKER_02

Carla Gal is a woman who embodies the idea of experimentation and curiosity. And so in today's podcast, I wanted to explore this through her work and research and all of her experience with nature play programs, with tree climbing and loose parts. I'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which we're recording today, the Kabi Kabi and Gubby Gubby people. I would like to recognize the continued connection to the land and waters of this beautiful place we call home. I also recognize Aboriginal people as the original custodians of this land and acknowledge that they have never ceded sovereignty. I'd like to pay my respects to all Gubby Gubby elders, ancestors, and emerging elders, and any First Nations people listening today. Hello and welcome to the Raising Wildlings podcast. I'm your host today, Vicky Oliver. And in today's episode, we've invited Dr. Carla Gull along to talk to us. Carla does a lot of different things, including hosting a podcast. She facilitates the international Facebook group on loose parts. She writes all about loose parts and leads workshops, presentations, and of course, really importantly, academic research around loose parts, tree climbing, STEM, outdoor classrooms, and nature-based education. And I can't wait to get into it with her. Introducing Dr. Carla Gull. Welcome to Raising Wildlings, a podcast about parenting, alternative education, stepping into the wilderness, however that looks, with your family.

SPEAKER_00

Each week we'll be interviewing experts that truly inspire us to answer your parenting and education questions. We'll also be sharing stories from some incredible families that took the leap and are taking the road less traveled.

SPEAKER_02

We're your hosts, Vicky and Nicki from Wildlings Forest School. Pop in your headphones, settle in, and join us on this next adventure. Thank you so much, Carla. Dr. CarlaGull, for joining us on the podcast today. We're gonna get started. Um, I'd love to know, Carla, how you got started in this field with loose parts and nature and all of the things that you do.

SPEAKER_01

Most definitely. So when my last child was born, uh about almost 11 years ago, I was just looking for something for myself to do. I was teaching college classes online and I was just looking for some me time. And I saw two different programs. One was a master naturalist program, and one is one was an Indiana Master Naturalist program. And the Master Naturalist program worked better with my schedule. As part of that, I ended up uh doing some training and classes, but volunteering. Uh and with young children, I started volunteering in a nature center that I saw something about preschool um opportunities with as part of that. And I ended up like co-leading the preschool programming um with the person who was there already and eventually started doing more programming at the nature center, kind of expanding those things, trying to figure out how to make this small uh nature center work, and also going from like a larger city to more rural area uh and trying to find activities for my kids. I'm like, well, let's just plan something and invite the whole community as part of that. And uh so did a deep dive as part of that into children and nature um in particular. Uh ended up doing like an outdoor classroom. We had 10 acres of woods at this nature center and um doing an outdoor classroom as part of that. Um, so there's a place to play kind of up close. And then things kind of snowballed from there. But that was kind of my beginning aspect. My kids got yelled at in a park um because they were climbing a tree. Um, one of them wasn't up very high, but when he was yelled at, he kind of like fell. And um, I mean, and he wasn't up high, like waist high or so. Uh, but the the lady was like, see, that's why kids can't climb trees. And I was like, it's because you yelled at him. And um, Mama Bear and me uh went and checked out all of the regulations on all of the green spots in our county, um, our regional area that we have, to see what their policies were on tree climbing. And some of them were almost ridiculous. Like one of them, it looked like the way it was worded, and I recognize they're just trying to cover their bases, but it was worded that if you picked up a leaf in the park, that that would be against the regulations. Or if you bought a plant on one side of the park uh in the town square and walked across the park, um, that that would be against the regulations. Oh my god. And I know that they were trying to probably prevent people from uh digging up their plants and things like that. Yeah, yeah. But the worded made it almost criminal for a child to pick up a leaf.

SPEAKER_02

It's fascinating, isn't it? Like if if I mean, I'm not really a policy maker in in a large scale like that, but how it's written in a way that's trying to solve a problem but creates problems somewhere else because they haven't thought about it from a holistic perspective, that is absolutely ludicrous.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. And uh thankfully, I mean, that type of policy is kind of few and far between. But we did find um tree climbing bans frequent places. And so I took those concepts to, in my frustration, to my research colleagues and uh teach in college, needed to do some academic research and such. And so that became the basis of looking at the benefits and risks of tree climbing. And so um with that, uh have published maybe three different research studies on uh tree climbing and risky play, kind of with that. Actually, did just get an email from uh an organization noting that I was one of the top five um researchers, myself and our research group, uh, on risky play on Google Scholar.

SPEAKER_02

It was like, wow, that's so cool. I probably use some of your research in um that course material because it's so important. I was gonna ask you about tree climbing a bit further down, but I may as well um ask you now, what's been some of the most interesting things that things that have come out of your findings around tree climbing? Because I'm sure there'll be lots of interesting things.

SPEAKER_01

I will say I have been sent so many videos and pictures of children in trees and parents asking, is this child too high? And I or things that make me feel a little uncomfortable, actually. Um, but I'm not the judge of those situations because I don't know the child, I don't know the tree, I don't know the background um and the parents' comfort level and some of those kinds of things. And so while we have some suggestions and and guidelines uh around, you know, what what typically helps keep people safe in situations like that, uh, I can't make decisions for other people's kids because I don't know them and I don't know the tree and and such. So um I thought that was interesting. I also found it very interesting uh just what tree climbing is compared to. Uh people see it as very risky sometimes, but you know, statistically, you know, children are more likely to get hurt on the soccer field, uh the football field, um, what you may call it. Uh, and we pay for that here in the United States. We pay for our children to play these things. And I've seen a kid break their arm on the soccer field, you know, not mine, thankfully. Uh, and then uh also like stairs and monkey bars. Uh, there's a lot more research that's documenting um injuries on those places, but we haven't banned uh stairs, we haven't banned um monkey bars, any of those kinds of things. And so why are we putting this extra layer on it? And even the policy at our local county parks, it was like there was no technical climbing. And I was like, it's just a kid climbing up a tree. When I think of technical climbing, I think of like harnesses and ropes. Yeah. Um, so it's a little unclear. And I recognize that uh here in the United States is a liability issue. However, can we come up with some common sense kinds of things around that? I also found that some parents that uh would like to see their child doing more risky play uh felt a lot of judgment from the community and other parents. I feel that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. And I think um, from my observations, it feels like that in the United States, the spotlight is far more judgmental there than it is here. Whilst we still get it here, uh people are a little bit more less likely to say something to other people. Whereas I have read so many stories of people, and I think that is a big barrier of that the neighbors saying something, being daubed into the police of like these really crazy stories of parents having to justify normal childhood experiences because somebody has had a a different idea of what's safe. And so people are then afraid to doing to do these things, which they know are good, but it's actually holding them back. And it's it's quite sad.

SPEAKER_01

Or uh parents allow it, but not when other people are around or something of the sort, which then makes it not as normal for children to be engaged in risky play and such. But you know, I've been to the playground with um my child and another parent with her child, and uh I let my children like climb up this the slide if conditions permit it. It was two kids on the whole playground. And you know, if it's busier, you know, I'm like, uh right now is not the best time to be climbing up the slide because there's so many people going down the slide. Yeah, yeah. But if there's few people there, uh, you know, I'm like, sure, that's totally fine. And she kept insisting that her child could only go down because she wanted to be consistent with rules every place that she went to, which I understand. And our kids happily played next to each other, each of them following different guidelines and regulations from their parents.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So I think it's it's okay to do things in a different way. And uh, and over time, I did see that parent uh allow more freedom with her child as well.

SPEAKER_02

Well, yeah, because we need examples. And I think that's probably one of the big barriers for a lot of people is that those examples just disappeared very quickly, you know, of that normal childhood play and what was recognized as normal and safe. Like, you know, so many I've seen it a lot lately of people saying, you know, my childhood, I I didn't even have food or water half the day and I left the house, you know, and now my life as a parent is like water bottles and making sure there's snacks available and I know where my child is at all times and the and how quickly that changed within a generation. So we don't actually see that what we had experienced, which is probably the other end of the spectrum. And so because we can't see it, it it's a lot harder for people to make that choice very intentionally.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, children's uh space, like if you map out where they're allowed to go and such, that has shrunk so much since I was a child. I mean, I remember getting on a bicycle and going all over the place. And, you know, we have one road in our neighborhood and then a busy street at the end of it. And so, you know, our kids can go on the loop in the neighborhood, but not really easily beyond that. We've tried different times about a uh riding over to grand and grandpa's house or something like that, uh, and walking the bike on the busy road and then catching up on the next one and such. But uh, one camp that my son did recently was getting geared toward tweens. So that little one that was a newborn when I started this master naturalist class, um, he's now almost 11 and uh he went on an adventure bike camp. And so other kids his age they met at different parks and then they would ride their bikes with adult leaders that weren't parents, not us, uh, to go do fun things like go to a uh water park, uh, to go to a climbing gym and get ice cream, uh, to go mini golf and get ice cream. There's a lot of ice cream. But I mean, help get them gain experience and confidence in going places on their own to where I would feel more comfortable with him going with one of his brothers on one of the bike paths that we have, dropping them off the bike path because we have the busy road, yeah, but then letting them drive, I mean, ride their bikes to the next town over and get ice cream on the way back or something like that. Yeah. Giving them more uh freedom to their childhood.

SPEAKER_02

Isn't it interesting? It's almost like um, in order to give our children that freedom, we need to, as adults, like step ourselves through, you know, that process of like, this is where my comfort level sits. And, you know, you'll have to go through this training in order for me to feel comfortable almost like it's you know, I think it's fantastic for kids to learn that way as well, because you know, it's it's not devoid of risk, like there is risk involved. Um, and we don't want them to just learn these things the hard way sometimes. And so I think it is nice to have that in between where you you get to step it out.

SPEAKER_01

Most definitely. And I think that's when we hear like free range parenting, and I'm not quite free range completely, but a fair amount of um opportunities for them to uh, you know, go throughout the neighborhood at least. Uh, I would say that even with what I've seen in free range parenting, it's not like the parents just let them go do whatever. They start younger with us, you know, they can be in the backyard. Um, then they can be at the neighbor's house if they catch they touch base every two hours or something like that. And the amount that they are allowed to roam gets further and further as the child shows that they're capable of following the parameters that are there, yeah. With touch base or whatever it may be. And I liken that into like crossing the road, you know, children cross roads all the time, but we don't just like say, please just go cross the road. We teach them to stop and look both ways and those kinds of things. It's a skill that we we teach them as one step in in learning how to function in the world around them. And so giving them that that gradual freedom, I think is part of that as well. And the same thing happened with our boys, you know, the first time we left them by themselves, you know, it's for 15 minutes we walked down to the neighbor's house, you know, and then it was a half an hour, and then, you know, wider uh parameters as we they understood what was expected, and also we felt comfortable that they were capable and we'd practice, you know, what happens if uh some if you know someone gets hurt. Uh we have a pond in front of our house. Uh, are you allowed to be by the pond when there's not an adult at home? Are you allowed to be at the pond? Um, they're a little bit older now, so they have more freedom with that. Yeah. But every year, you know, we go over ice safety once again because um those are yeah, those are the things that we need to be aware of and just be reminded of as especially as kids get into teenage years and um their brains haven't quite fully developed and caught up with um the invincible nature that they may have as well. Yep.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, exactly. Um, this is so cool. Um, I'd love to talk to you because loose parts is a huge part of what you do as well.

SPEAKER_01

Uh for that, uh started at the nature center as well. And also just watching, you know, how children play and interact with things. Uh, but I had gone to some training and you're supposed to, you know, write down one takeaway, one thing you're going to do. And I was like, let's put a loose parts um area in the nature center. And so, you know, collected all of these things from a variety of places and such and created this loose parts zone within the nature center, but then also in the outdoor classroom that was there. So that was kind of my start and uh ended up doing some training at the state level of Indiana here, and we were planning for like 60 people, and we ended up being in a room with 200 people, and people just kept coming in and coming in. And with that, um, we didn't have enough handouts and such um for it. Um, so I was like, you know what, let's get your email addresses. And I opened up a Facebook group to disseminate information and to uh also um continue helping people through challenges where a place where they could ask questions and things like that. And I uh innocently called it loose parts play that was available at the time, and you know, the perfect name for it, I guess. Um, but it went from that small group of people there to over 123,000 people from around the world now. And uh, but didn't stop, you know, just at that, started doing academic research on it, the topic as well, and then also blogging and then podcast episodes about it as well to help kind of organize information. Uh, I've been in unique roles where I've been able to um go into preschools to host community events, um, to try things out at the elementary level uh in classrooms as well with that. So have been able to, and even with adults, you know, with training, um, and then also just community experiences, uh bringing light painting to some of our community and events, experimenting with a variable of light and time and how that's captured on exposure, um, long range exposure of um a camera and such. Uh, so I've been able to try and dabble lots of different applications of loose parts and uh once again brought the topic to my research colleagues, and uh, we all had elementary education backgrounds. And so uh we noticed that it wasn't happening as much for early elementary, so in the United States, kindergarten through third grade, uh, which should still be kind of play-based, not as much sometimes. Um, but we wanted to put together a resource uh to show how you could still meet standards within school context using loose parts. And so we did um come up with the book Um Loose Parts Learning in K through three classrooms, which involves lots of play as part of it and lots of student choice and voice. So, like no cookie cutter kinds of projects, yeah, but lots of inspiration with that, and then also some academic research, um, kind of trying to define loose parts a little bit better. It's really squishy, yeah. And like yeah, how do you even define that? Uh, people like, so what do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Do you have a definition now that you like that that would suit where you're at now?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I would say it's changed and progressed over time. And we do have an official uh definition that we have published in academic research uh out that that's out there. Um but for me, I would say it boils down to experimentation and exploration if I give the most basic um understanding of what loose parts are. Um instead of having like a checklist of is a cork uh a loose part uh or a tree cookie, but what if it's a toy car? Could then it still be a loose part? Or does it depend on how that car is being used?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so if it's being experimented and explored with um the variables can shift and be all kinds of things. Um, Mark Armitage, he talks about, and I've learned so much from him as a playworker, uh, in his perspectives on loose parts as well. But you know, I think he was one of the first people that brought up like, why can't a toy be a loose part? You know, I've seen one of those visuals like with tree cookies and and all the things that a tree cookie could be, and you know, do do do do do. And then they have like a pickle slice or cucumber slice, um, plastic play food. Yeah. But I find that, and you know, this is just a cucumber, um, but but I find an application when there's that loose parts mindset that that pickle slice, yeah, children see beyond what the pickle slice can be with experimentation and exploration, and it becomes a stamper for play-doh, it becomes coins in a game, it becomes something they're trying to spin, etc. So they're really yes, tree cookies are lovely and I love them. And I think that when we think outside of the box and we allow experimentation, exploration, anything can be a loose part, and it doesn't necessarily have to be something tangible.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So there's one quote by Simon Nicholson, the kind of the original uh landscape architect who kind of wrote down this theory of loose parts. Uh, he talks about things such as fire as a loose part, which makes people anxious. Yeah. I've done a loose uh podcast episode about that, but I'm also starting a research study on that as well. Um, and then uh words and smells and chemical interactions. Um, he calls all of those variables or loose parts. And that's really expands the opportunities beyond sticks and rocks. Though I love sticks and rocks. Well, that's it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I mean, I think it's just expanding the definition. And in exactly that, it becomes less about the tangible items and more about the culture that you're setting in terms of the play space or the space that you're that you're in. I think that's a really cool shift in mindset around that. And around mindset, I'd love to know how you. Think loose parts helps to cultivate or become a backdrop for growth mindset in children? Because I think that that's such a huge thing that the education system sometimes wants to see that outcome but doesn't provide an opportunity for.

SPEAKER_01

That's a great question. And now I'm like racking my brain are there research studies that put the two of those together because they pair so well together. You know, that's a great pairing. Uh when I see children left to their own devices to work out, and and one of the tenets of uh loose parts mindset in that original theory is that children are solving real life environmental problems, whatever that is in context for them. And when we think of growth mindset, you know, they're solving real problems and they're persevering, they're developing um the diligence and the perseverance to keep moving forward with something and being willing to experiment with things, being willing to fail and make mistakes and learn from those mistakes. And all of that is happening as part of uh a loose parts experience. Yeah. Um so I think that there's a lot of connection with that and something that should be investigated more, uh, but it does take time and space and resources, materials, and an educator that will allow for that type of learning as opposed to like a worksheet or something of the sort.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think so. And one of the things that I've seen you talk about is curiosity. It gets talks of talked about a lot in education, but when as teachers, it comes from a, you know, this is the curriculum and this is what we teach. And then it I I ask the question, like, how does that allow for curiosity when we're sort of telling them what they need to be curious about? How does those parts sort of solve that problem?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I would say that um curiosity, like, what can I do with this thing? You know, it makes us question uh the purpose, the intent, and the possibilities of anything that we encounter. Uh, I would say that some educators are more willing to go down those avenues with children than others. And I think that there's always room for questions in anything that we do. And that's to me, kind of what curiosity is. And I think that as educators, we need to cultivate that curiosity. Parents and educators ourselves, we need to play around and muck around sometimes um to understand what that's like and to uh recaptivate that as part of what we do. I recently read a book, um it was about Fred Rogers, Mr. Rogers, um, and uh his uh his kind of philosophy on education. And uh it was called When You Wonder You're Learning. I loved it so much that I went to Pittsburgh to go visit many of the places there, and then also have been able to interview the authors of that. But they just talk about curiosity as part of Mr. Rogers' uh approach. If you think of something as simple as a spoon, I'm trying to see if I've got one. I don't have one here. Sometimes I do, uh, but think of something as simple as a spoon. And how could we be curious about a spoon? Is a spoon just something that we eat with? Yeah. Um, we use them in all kinds of different ways. They're great at scooping, carrying things, uh, stirring things, of course. Flicking else, say again, flicking things. Oh yes, they're a great simple machine um as a lever if we use it that way. Um, and then also um making sound, experimenting with sound and noise. And you know, there are some people that even you know play spoons professionally. And uh so he did a whole segment just on spoons and being curious about spoons and what all the range of using spoons are and how they're made and and what's unique and special about them, and what's different between a metal spoon and a wooden spoon and a plastic spoon, you know. So just being curious about things and how are these the same and different, I think is important and essential as part of it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. When um it comes to those parts, one of the things I I like to talk about is the barriers or the myths that that surround that, because um, you know, there's all this theoretical ideas behind things, but the implementation of them can be quite difficult or challenging for people. So, what do you think are some of the main barriers or the the the initial barriers that people find in thinking about loose parts or implementing them? Implementing a program.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think one of the first things is just kind of our expectations. Uh, I've heard many times in the group uh I put the loose parts out and the kids didn't do anything. Yeah, they didn't do it the way they're supposed to. And I'm like, is there a way they're supposed to do it?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_01

Uh and so it has taken time, but I'm uh now I may have an idea of how it might be used. Um, but I also know kids and I understand child development and the different schema and ages and stages of development and such. But I I love that I can step back and put things out and allow other things from other spaces in their lives to come together with what materials are available there. And I can just be surprised at where they take it as opposed to expecting that it should turn out a certain way.

SPEAKER_02

I I think that when we've um hosted loose parts and and I was saying that it's one of our favorite things that we do now, because of that, it's like those moments of seeing what children come up with that it flaws me like all the time. I think, wow, that's so interesting that you saw the combination of those things to create that you know structure or a that that thing inspired a story or a you know a type of play that you you're doing. And I would I in a million years as an educator, I could not have come up with the parameters to get you there. And you came up with that all on your own. And I I love seeing that.

SPEAKER_01

It's a beautiful moment, you know, and and I learn from the children, you know. So we have explored like electricity as a loose part, and uh, and I've done it with different age groups and things. And of course, we're not it's fine to put safety parameters around it. We're not seeing forks in electrical outlets, just you know, yeah. We're safe. Uh, but I have learned so much from children being curious, um, given the variables that that are there around electricity, uh, and allowing them to experiment and explore with that. And so I've learned from them um just seeing what they're curious about, and then we'll let's see what do you find out? Um, let's try it, see. And so it expands my knowledge and understanding in addition to what they are learning. And if we think about like engagement and motivation, and that's so high when they get to follow their own interests um with the materials that are there. Absolutely. It makes evaluation a little bit trickier. You're like, how do I know what they've learned? And so oftentimes we're doing different uh types of assessment, like observations, um, maybe interviews and videos uh to show evidence of learning as opposed to like a pencil and paper test or something of the sort.

SPEAKER_02

And I think that that's a way for us to evolve as educators. Like we if if the assessments aren't working because of the learning that's happening, then the it's the assessment that has to evolve, not the not the learning, not that's what's happening in the classroom. And I think that's a key part that educators get stuck in as well, because there's, I mean, there's a whole new process we need to go through to figure that out, which is can be a lot of work.

SPEAKER_01

Most definitely. And I've been an elementary school um classroom teacher, and I don't know that I could just do loose parts all day, every day. Um, I recognize that uh the way that standards are set up, it may just be part of what we do. But having those blocks of time to do that, I think is essential and it really can be done. I think a lot of people also another barrier would be um like the mess involved in it. It's a little bit more chaotic. Um it looks chaotic um on the surface, but really the children are actively engaged in learning. Uh, I set up like a light lab um at a nearby elementary school. And so they had an extra room and the classes would just come in and rotate. And I would set it up and then maybe read a book about light and say, okay, now you are the scientists. I want you to learn as much about light as you can. And later they were journaling and we debriefed and um, you know, they had some other activities and such with it. But some educators would like come to the door and like one just like walked away because it was like too stim over stimulating for them. It was not a neat, orderly space. Um, it was a lot of children exploring light in magical and fascinating ways that looked different than children sitting in rows in desks. Um, so I think that, and then um also just the cleanup that comes with it. Uh, I think that people uh think sometimes that everything has to be sorted out and categorized afterwards. And so we've actually written a whole article about uh myths around loose parts. Um, that if you want to link to you, more than welcome to. But uh so like it has to look like aesthetically pleasing all the time. But my experience has been if we just shove everything into a bowl afterwards, if it's smaller loose parts, that the play value is still this high, it's still the same as whether it's all separated out. And that doesn't mean we never sort things and separate them out, maybe a once a week time type of thing, though, instead of an everyday thing. And that maximizes our play and interaction time as opposed to spent sorting all of the time. Though those are good math skills too.

SPEAKER_02

So yeah, that's right. And it's very different loose parts, I'm guessing, inside than outside too, because I know that within out like we don't we don't do inside loose parts. We it's always outside. And because of that fact, it has to be packed away at the end of the day because that's how we maintain the equipment and and the things to be used. So there's like that culture of this isn't a permanent thing. This is a for now. What you're what you're creating is a for now and it will have to be deconstructed at the end. Um, which I think that there's value. I mean, there's value in in permanence of things, but there's value also in not having that stress of having to keep it together tidy and there, especially when it is messy and it doesn't look lovely.

SPEAKER_01

I've been uh creating these threads in the loose parts play group because lots of times people share the pretty pictures on social media instead of the during or the after or just what you find later on. And that's been kind of interesting to see that. Um, and I would say you said you don't do loose parts inside, but I would say that they probably do. Um, you just haven't named it that.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, we don't have an indoor classroom, so everything we do is outside. Oh, okay, you're all outside. Never mind. Yeah, no, and and if we were inside, we would, but yeah, everything we do is outside. So it's yeah, we we just don't have that opportunity to see what it's like on the inside from a personal perspective. But I can imagine it it's just a different, there's just different parameters to being inside and using that space. And as you say, like when you're in an educator, you're using that space for multiple different things and it's not loose parts all day, every day.

SPEAKER_01

No. And uh I do find that being outdoors with those parts is kind of freeing, though. There's more space, there's more room for movement, um, typically. Yeah. Uh, you know, uh, we don't have sounds bouncing off of walls everywhere. So it's okay to be a little bit louder. And there's oftentimes uh opportunities for children uh to meet the variety of needs that they have. Like if one child needs a space that's a little bit quieter, you know, they can go hang out underneath a bush. Um, and another child that needs that open space just to move their bodies in lots of ways, there's room for that as well. Um that's one thing that I have liked about like the outdoor classroom concept. I typically use the nature explore kind of approach. Um, there's uh an organization that does research and certifies outdoor classrooms in the United States and they've started a few other places as well. Um, but they have different zones, just like we have indoors. And while there are zones for predictability, uh any of those things can happen anywhere in the space. Um I hear it often referred to, you know, like we may have uh a kitchen table and that's where we usually eat, but that doesn't mean that I don't bring my um dinner out and sit in the living room every once in a while. Or we can take my my dinner outside to eat sometimes. Uh so while there are zones, um, those activities can be happening throughout this space. And the there's freedom to move the loose parts from one place to another, um, but then it has a home that it can go to as well.

SPEAKER_02

I love that. And I love like, I mean, I feel like we come from a place of feeling very free in what we do. But what I really love seeing is other educators see and experience that freedom as well, because it's it's like you're saying those expectations and those constraints that we put on ourselves make it stressful. But if we can just slowly chip away at that and we feel more free and find ways to make it happen in a way that doesn't feel like it's overloaded or it doesn't feel like it's a huge cleanup, like we we start to be able to meet everyone's needs, including the educators, because I think that a lot of that what we do in education is about the children, but also about one person having to manage multiple little people and their needs need to be met as well, otherwise it's not going to work together. So when you find those little freedoms as you go, it's just I I love seeing that for educators. It's just it it I think everyone benefits.

SPEAKER_01

Most definitely. And you mentioned, you know, the the health and um wellness of the educator as well. I've met so many educators just recently that have just been embracing this nature-based type of early childhood. And uh many of them have said, you know, if I have not, if I didn't have this in my life as an educator, I wouldn't still be in the field. Yes. And, you know, uh it raises different challenges and such, as you know. Um, but at the same time, it offers opportunities that we can't replicate inside. And I'm not saying we should do one or the other, but there are benefits to both. And I think it's wonderful when educators are recognizing that restorative power of nature for them, that curiosity, that sense of discovery, um, that that moment of awe as they are slowing down and focusing and observing right alongside the children. You know, we don't have to know everything about every plant and insect behind.

SPEAKER_02

That's right.

SPEAKER_01

We can just be curious.

SPEAKER_02

That's exactly we can just be curious. Um, finally, Carla, just to wrap things up today, where do you see the future of loose parts going? Like you're in the field, you're you're doing the research, you're talking to educators. Where do you see the future of loose parts and nature play going?

SPEAKER_01

So uh when I talk about this concept, I oftentimes talk about this isn't a new concept. This isn't new at all. You know, the first time a and someone picked up a stick or a rock and used it for something beyond a stick or a rock, is that could that be considered loose parts? You know, they're thinking outside of their experience right there. And you can see progression of different um tools and toys throughout the history um of what we have recorded, I guess. And I I see and I hope that we continue to see the the learning applications of and the value and power of play as part of that, and uh that it just becomes part of instead of it's it's something that's outside of our realm of experience, it's just part of how we live and what we do all the time. You know, um, we see the power and the opportunities in a box. You know, I got a new pair of shoes recently, and it said you could recycle this, or you could do this or this or this or this or this or this, you know. Um so even in marketing, they're recognizing that something as simple as a box has some really cool opportunities if we try, if we do something.

SPEAKER_02

I love that. Well, I'll tell you what, if any box that ends up in my house is immediately taken away by my children and transformed into something else, and I love that. I love that we can not only talk about it from an educational point of view, but also start to find ways to bring that into the home and it just be part of our everyday experiences and whether that's for us as parents, but all sorts of people just experimenting and having fun and being curious, like you say.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I look at my mother. Um, she does quilting, and as part of that, she loves to create and manipulate and play around with her fabrics. And so she's always trying new and different techniques. And to me, I see her quilting and her experimentation with fabric as loose parts for her. It doesn't have to be something that we stop at any age in life, but it's a mindset of just trying things out and exploring and experimenting um with them, no matter where we are. I see people pushing boundaries as adults and creative problem solving with that as well. And so I think that there are opportunities for us to apply it in our whole life. Um there are some people also doing um work with dementia patients or uh and so they have like a senior tray play. So they may have um trays with loose parts, maybe some animals or characters on it, and then the the stories that come out of these these dementia patients as they're manipulating with their hands uh and smelling, they'll put lavender in it sometimes. Um there's some great work that's happening with that. Uh, and great to see the memories and the sparks and the connections that that people make as they uh just play around with things. You know, we all need to play.

SPEAKER_02

So we do all need to play. Carla, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for putting the research behind the stuff that we know is so important for children because that's the step that gets us through the bureaucracy and you know, being able to put those benefits forward so that people make new choices and can see the value that everyone's getting out of it. So we appreciate your work so, so much. Um, we'll be diving more into it. We'll link a whole heap, but where else can people find out about your work?

SPEAKER_01

So I've got the Facebook group Loose Parts Play. Um, and then also um podcast Loose Parts Nature Play. Couldn't quite separate it all out, so I put it all together. And clear is good. And then on Instagram, um, loose underscore parts underscore play, um, or the main major places you can find me. Um I've actually just changed jobs recently. I'm the coordinator of a master's degree of environmental education. Um we've got close to 1200 acres um at our site with a nature preschool and all kinds of beautiful uh opportunities to explore the natural world around us. Um so I'm looking forward to continuing with that role and helping future educators um continue with this as well. And I'll continue doing um my my groups with um the preschoolers and elementary schools and community things and such as well. So it's fun.

SPEAKER_02

What a legacy. That's so amazing. Thank you, Carla, so much for your time. And um, yeah, we'll be seeing you on the interwebs. Sounds great. Thank you so much. Now, as I said, loose parts are increasingly one of Nikki and my favorite things to facilitate with children, whether it's in the middle of the city, like um one of our programs that we run is called City Makers, uh, where we do have a loose parts playground, or whether that's in the forest, you really can't plan an activity with outcomes that we see in the way that free expression and creativity flows from children with space-time and those open-ended resources, like in those loose parts playgrounds. If you actually need any help with getting started with the nitty gritty when it comes to policy procedure or would like more information on loose parts, don't hesitate to contact us at hello at wildlingsforestschool.com. And as always, we love doing this journey with you. So until next time, stay wild.