If you've been listening to our podcast for a while now , then you will have already met this week's guest .
Nicki FarrellJill Howarth is the owner of Bournemise Education and she was our most listened to episode on Spotify last year , and our conversation with her starts some really great conversations and questions that we wanted to continue with her , mainly how , for some people , the best time to start a wild business might be during maternity leave or when you have young children . It sounds crazy , I know , but in this episode , hear us out . We'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which we record today the Kabi , kabi and Gabi Gabi people . We recognise their continued connection to the land and waters of this beautiful place . We recognise Aboriginal people as the original custodians of this land and acknowledge that they have never ceded sovereignty . We respect all Gabi Gabi elders , ancestors and emerging elders , and all First Nations people listening today .
Vicci OliverWelcome to Raising Wildlings , a podcast about parenting , alternative education and stepping into the wilderness , however that looks , with your family .
Nicki FarrellEach week , we'll be interviewing experts that truly inspire us to answer your parenting and education questions . We'll also be sharing stories from some incredible families that took the leap and are taking the road less travelled .
Vicci OliverWear your hosts , vicki and Nikki from Wildlings Forest School , popping your headphones , settle in and join us on this next adventure .
Nicki FarrellFirstly , I want to say a big thank you and welcome back to Jill , because she was well . Your episode was the most listened to last year out of our Spotify episodes and we've had lots of queries afterwards regarding your episode and I felt like this conversation hadn't finished . So thank you for coming back and thank you for sharing your wisdom with us again this week .
Gill HowarthOh , thank you for having me back on here . I was really really happy to be here , amazing .
Nicki FarrellSo I guess one of the most common questions we've been getting recently and post your episode as well was ah , I'm really passionate , I really want to start a business like BornWise or Wildlings , but I'm either about to have a baby or I've got young children or a mum maternity leave and it just seems crazy Am I crazy to be starting a business in this season of my lifetime ? So I wanted to hear your journey , because I know you have a similar journey to ours and then just being really transparent and authentic about what that looked like , the ups , the downs , and why you chose that season .
Gill HowarthYeah , I mean it's it's a great conversation to have and I think it opens up , you know , the possibilities for different topics covered by this one . I just feel quite , you know , endless and and so important , I think , to listen to and tell our stories , as you know , especially women . You know all parents who are working , but I think , especially women , because the landscape is changing in many ways . We're kind of , I guess , thinking a little bit more philosophically about what it looks like to work as a mother and start a business , and I feel like for me , none of this was particularly planned . I didn't sort of have a really , you know , I'm not , I'm not a five year kind of a goal sort of person . I don't kind of even tend to think that far ahead .
Gill HowarthSame and yeah , and it's interesting that you were in a similar part , I feel like , because it was around 2017 that you had the same this is my new yeah , which blows my mind , but I was , that's when I was pregnant with my third son in 2017 . And , like I probably would have shared on the last episode , working in a school is actually an awesome school . Awesome school that I was working at , very nature based , regia inspired , beautiful space to work in . But I had two young boys already and was finding it just difficult , difficult to show up as a teacher , show up , then show up at home as a mom and do all of the things . And then was pregnant with my third . I just thought I don't , I don't know how I'm going to do this , you know , and I was , I was very , very tired , yeah , you know , even to the point , and I think what I thought I could do , sort of it was early , early in the year that I went . He was due in August . So I was thinking , well , I'll start another school year , probably be able to work till June , because you know , that's what I'd worked to quite close with my other sons .
Gill HowarthI assumed I could do that again and I think by March , so not long into the school term , I just had this awareness of I'm exhausted , I'm not going to last till June , you know just really aware of how , how my body was feeling and I think the beauty of being pregnant Well , I don't know if this is for all women , but for me I'm less apologetic when I'm pregnant . For For him , right , do you know , like it's it's , it's not great that we have to be that what you know , that we have , we should feel OK , no matter what season we're in . But that stage I think third son , I thought I've done this before I feel terrible and I'm just not willing to be so tired and stressed , and I took early maternity leave . So I think that's an important thing to even mention in this conversation that I probably had a little bit of a backup window . I didn't just quit my job , I wasn't on paid maternity leave just for full transparency , but I had a window where I thought I actually still have a job to go back to and took that early maternity leave and very soon into that maternity leave I was thinking I probably won't go back to teaching .
Gill HowarthI think I've picked the wrong career , reflecting on what my working life would look like and what it had looked like , and within a couple of weeks I sort of had this idea of well , what if I just didn't teach in a classroom ?
Gill HowarthWhat if I taught in a different space ? What if I just did things a little bit differently ? And I just allowed myself to explore that creativity , I guess , and inspiration , in stepping stones along the way , without , like I said , a very clear plan of what that might look like , but I did have like I sort of gave myself that year . I thought I've got a year to play with . When you know , when it rolls up and the school's calling and saying , are you coming back to the classroom ? You know I can decide then if this just all goes pear shaped and it just doesn't work .
Gill HowarthBut I think you know and I say this about children all the time but I think it's the same for us I'm a big believer in allowing time and space , you know . So , just opening yourself up a little bit of space to go , well , what is possible when we try things differently ? And so that was , honestly , that was about as clear as I was in those early days . I knew that I was passionate about early childhood , I was passionate about play and I was passionate about being outdoors with children . So I just thought , well , let's just focus there and see what happens . So you know , that is in itself probably coming from a quite privileged position , isn't it To be able to say I have this time and space to see what happens ? Because does everyone have that , you know ? Does everyone have time ?
Nicki Farrelland space to see what happens . When you were saying earlier about the amount of conversations this can pair off to , I was thinking the fact that Australia has you know it's . What are we now ? Is it 18 weeks or 12 weeks ? I'm not sure what it is now , because obviously I haven't had a baby recently , but we have access , unlike our US friends , to , let's call it , 12 weeks maternity leave if you've been working in a job for a year , I believe , and that gets pro-routed , depending on your hours , that you've worked .
Nicki FarrellSo there's an immense privilege in that already the fact that you've been working , because if you haven't been working , say you're on your third child and didn't go back to work you don't have that space and time . It is an enormous privilege and I think there is an end to that is that there is still an enormous amount of bravery , courage and willingness to fail , or I have a crack at it and go , oh well , I gave it a go , without burning yourself with any guilt or shame around that .
Nicki FarrellIf it doesn't and I think that's what I actually think that's what stops most people . I think it's not actually the finances , it's not actually the idea or the logistics or the planning or the paperwork . I actually think it's that leap and that willingness to fail . Do you have any tips or advice ? Or what is it that allowed you in your mind , I guess , other than the job to fall back on to that allowed you to go whatever . If it doesn't work , it doesn't work .
Gill HowarthI think I've always been pretty good with that concept of mistakes . I don't mind trying things , I don't mind . I've probably throughout my life had different just I hadn't planned it that way but different life experiences that did include failure . Do you know what ?
One of my first teaching jobs was actually a teaching contract in South Korea , and I was straight out of uni , quite young , with the Bachelor of Arts degree . I didn't have an admission degree back then and I took this teaching job in South Korea . I didn't know what it meant to teach , just assumed that they would teach me what they wanted me to do , but they didn't . They just opened the door and sent me in . There's a group of children teach them , and I didn't even speak . I didn't speak the language and , to make it even worse , I think our director watched us on our first day as well , so we didn't even get a chance to kind of try . I'd never planned a class in my life before . I had no idea what it was to plan , do a lesson plan , and I wrote this . I wrote this plan on paper and thought , yeah , that'll last me . He was the director's come in for 45 minutes to watch , and because I was so nervous and had no idea what I was doing . I went through that lesson plan in about six minutes and then got to the end of it and it was another excruciating , probably 40 minutes of me just trying to make anything . I failed . I failed one of my boss in front of all the kids in the class . It was awful , and I walked out of that room and I just thought , oh my gosh , I'm just feel humiliated and didn't wanna go back the next day . But the thing is I did go back the next day and I ended up loving the world . But I'm good at showing up , I'm good at coming back . So I feel like and that was part of for the first journey I think , with with BornWise for the first three or four months I had very small numbers in the classes as well I had .
Gill HowarthI think it helps to share with full transparency . I don't want to paint a picture of it perfect from the first few days . I think there was one session that was a particularly wild and wet day but we obviously were still running and I left my children here with my husband . I had a late night I hadn't slept much drove out to the farm where I was teaching and I had one student , one family . I did the program , we went through everything . I was driving home and I just thought maybe this isn't wanted , maybe this actually doesn't have a demand . But I just kept checking in . I kept checking in with my intuition , I guess , and it said , just keep showing up , just keep showing up . I did .
Gill HowarthA couple of months later , all of a sudden the program was full and there was a wait list and it got to that point actually quite quickly . I think I was quite lucky with how quickly it got there . But I had to go through a lot of discomfort and a lot of questioning myself and asking what are you doing ? There was a trust . There was a trust Also just being okay . Well , people will say that there's one child here and here , and how does that feel ? It feels uncomfortable , that might feel a little bit embarrassing , but just give the best that you have to this one child that's showing up because they're still here . There was a lot of that . There's a journey with that .
Nicki FarrellYou've touched on about three different things . I want to bring it back to , first of all , intuition . Without getting all hippie-diffie , I want to add there that we don't trust it enough , and I think , particularly in that postpartum period , it is like you have an electric , magnetic antenna on , and the more you can lean into that creative period and follow those creative juices , I actually think it's the best time to do that , because you're also I don't know about you , but you know your breastfeeding . You're quite often naptrapped . I don't always want to be on your phone , but my brain was just ideating oh , I could do this , I could play with this , I could try this . I couldn't do anything about it . I was absolutely naptrapped for those first couple of months , but I just kept a little pad of paper next to me and just wrote down all these ideas . And I think there's something to be said for writing these down and vision boards and things , because then you see the opportunities . So how , in what other ways have you listened to your intuition and it's worked for you ?
Gill HowarthYeah , so with BornWise that was . You know that was my commitment as well . I'm glad you asked that question . I made the commitment at the start of BornWise to trust my intuition every step of the way and that was because I feel like I've always had a pretty decent connection to my intuition , as in there's often a knowing there and I think that actually comes from being so connected to my inner world , which has just come through storytelling , creative writing , poetry , all of that you know that's been in my past and they're just the things I love doing . That I think has kept and I would have to say working with young children I think has kept me that space of my inner world and I have a pretty good relationship . The thing that I didn't do was always trust the intuition . So I don't know about you , but you know , many times throughout my 20s and probably early 30s where my intuition was very loudly speaking to me and I would , I would shush it . You know I'd say no , no , no . You look crazy if you follow that .
Gill HowarthYou know other people shush it other people shush it , society shushes it . You know , we're not brought up to come into those . Well , I think we're turning around now to say , hey , that inner voice is very powerful . So , you know , and the you know , however that speaks to us , I guess it's through the body , the body , wisdom and all of these things we're starting to learn more about . And I was studying , doing my yoga teacher training , because I've always been interested in that philosophy and you know that was talking a lot about using your intuition to connect your body and being pregnant , I guess with my third , it was that intuition saying you can't keep working , you can't keep going to work , you need to stay home and rest and just going that , being unapologetic for it . Then you know , just saying , actually , my body and everything in me , my intuition , is saying no to continue working in this way . And I was scared oh , that's what . I was scared to leave work early because I was like , oh , what about this ? And what if I lose my job ? And what if they replace me ? And what about the money ? And what if , what if , what if ?
Gill HowarthBut I followed the intuition and I think two weeks later I can't remember how it happened but the money that I was worried about actually came to my husband via another means and it was almost exactly what I would have earned to the end that I stayed . And I thought , oh , that's one of those just funny beautiful life moments and I thought , okay , I'm going to do this , I'm going to trust my intuition at Bournwise when I make decisions about my work and even if I can't do it in other areas of my life , you know , even if I struggle , this is just almost like an experiment . It was almost a bit of a science experiment . What will happen if I just make decisions based on my intuition ?
Gill HowarthOne of the things that could have stopped me doing this would have been to say well , you're not a business person , jill , you're an educator and know about running a business . And plenty of people have said to me in those early but what do you know about running a business ? And I thought probably not much . But I know a lot about relationships , I know a lot about early childhood and I know a lot about play . And I'm going to stick to what I know and trust that those other decisions will come . And it seems to work Every time I go against my intuition and make a rational , logical choice , because usually an external person or idea has told me to it doesn't work out for
me . I don't know why .
Nicki FarrellOur stories are so parallel . It's freaky , really Terrible , absolutely . So what does intuition feel like for you and your body ? Could you , is there a saying that you use , or how do you test something to go ? Yeah , that's my intuition says yes .
Gill HowarthThat's such an awesome question . I think for me it is just a no . I know for one of my sons his is a body experience . He seems to have a very physical experience to that yes or no , or it's his body to tell him and I can get that body knowing as well . You know , there's even those little exercises I think it's in kinesiology and things like that .
Nicki FarrellYou know , muscle testing yeah .
Gill HowarthI've , and that works . But for me it just seems to be a knowing in my Gut or sort of in the area between my gut and my heart . It's just . It's really hard to describe and I don't think I've Become particularly articulate at being able to say what that is . It just is this knowing yeah , you know , it's just , there's no doubt , it's trust the thing . Like I said , the message is always there .
Gill HowarthThen the acting on that can that I still , you know it can can get a little bit confused with that when it's when I second Self , you know , I think it's almost like it's so instinctual . You know , when you drive in a car and you do something to hesitate . You know when you hesitate , and then that's when you something Doesn't know happened with my son on the weekend playing cricket . He they put him on the head to play on the other team because the other team was short numbered and he went to take a catch . And he said to me afterwards his instinct was to take the catch because that's what you do when you play cricket . But then his mind said , hang on , that's your teammate and you're going to get you to any hesitated , and in that hesitation ball went straight into the nose . He's got a nice big kind of bruised .
Gill HowarthSwipe and I said to him afterwards that it's that hesitation , isn't it . But there's this moment For me when I hesitate , that's when I kind of , then I , then I can shake my knowing and shake my intuitive space .
Nicki FarrellSo there's that's particular , particular no , but it's funny even as you were saying it , and I know what you mean about not being able to label it . I'm the same minds , but somewhere between my , my chest and my belly , and it's just this steady , affirmative , solid kind of yes , and I sometimes ask myself , you know , is it a excuse French , is it a fuck yes , or is it a yes ? And if it's , not a yes then , then my body , because my body will tell me if it is , if I go all right , is it ?
Nicki FarrellYeah , no . Quite often it's not that black and white right . Most of life is not just yes or no .
Gill HowarthIt's not , and that's actually a beautiful point because it's often there's . I'm a big believer in timing as well , because I think this might be getting a little bit hippie deep , but I think we have to try to remember it . We're just not one individual floating in space . We're actually a vision , with so many other humans but also life forms in the natural world , that sometimes you know , when we're trying to make a decision about something , it's actually we think it's all about us , but it's not all about us , and sometimes life to happen , or it needs to , you know , the time isn't right .
Gill HowarthSo sometimes I can go and want to get , you know , a very clear guidance or , you know , decision making process , and there's just nothing . You know , I don't get a yes , I don't get a no in this , in between space . That used to be really frustrating for me , but now I trust that of just going , this isn't the right time to know that , and sometimes it can be a week later , and then I'll suddenly get a really strong yes or a really strong no . You know , up until whatever happened for those things to pan out . And that's something I like to remember because I think . I think sometimes it's important not to well , just to remember , it's not always about you as the individual either . You know like this system anyway .
Nicki FarrellThat we're in this collective as well as in the human experience and you know there's a lot to be said for that where energy goes and flows as a society , if things are changing , then things , those doors , will open up more quickly at those different times .
Nicki FarrellYeah , yeah , I've been in the same boat where it's been like I really want to do that , but it's just feeling really hard , or it's just not feeling like my mind wants to do it , but something's just I'm not making the calls or I'm not doing the things I know I should be doing to make that happen . And then a month later maybe it's cyclical , because I definitely , you know , in my , in my PMS phase , I'm definitely less likely to outreach and really push for things and drive for things . But often a week's not long enough in most decisions , you know , to make things just disappear . But you , like you said , a month later , sometimes a year or more later , those things will come up again and it's a different person or a different version of what you originally ideated , and then bang it's on . It's wild .
Gill HowarthIt's kind of you know to follow that as well .
Nicki FarrellSo another thing I wanted to circle back to was you were saying oh , sometimes I just needed quiet that voice or those doubts . Another thing that we get a lot of people say to us is , oh God , the imposter syndrome . Like you said , who am I to run a business ? Who am I , to you know , lead programs with children outdoors ? Again , what is it the fact that you're willing to fail ? Is it the fact that you're , is it just the confidence that you're having yourself ? How do you shush that voice when it , when it does raise its head ? How do you shush ?
Gill Howarthit ? How do I shush ? Well , for me it's often turning up and actually doing the thing , teaching . I get a lot of what's the right word , not so much reassurance , I think satisfaction . I get a lot of satisfaction in my work , and so when I show up and it's so relationships-based and that's something that is a huge driving force for me . You know , it's when I see a child , simple things , telling a story , or when I see a child just being able to express themselves . Or last week we had a sharing circle that came about spontaneously , around mistakes , and so myself and Nat , who I work with , and the children , we all shared a mistake in the circle . The rest of us just listened to the circles , and you know that whenever I'm having doubt , I think I draw upon those , those memories and those experiences .
Gill HowarthI spend a lot of time reflecting . It just seems to be something I naturally do . Whether I'm in the shower or I'm driving or go for a walk , I'm often in reflective mode . I'm probably in reflective mode more than I'm in planning mode . Nice , so I yeah , I don't do much planning at all .
Gill HowarthI'm very backwards by design , but I think what reflection gives you is an opportunity to not through any bells and whistles .
Gill HowarthYou know it doesn't don't need to hold a party or anything like that , but it allows me to celebrate the winds and celebrate the really beautiful moments , and my job's always done that for me , like even when I was teaching in the system and classrooms .
Gill HowarthI'm good at and I don't know why , but I'm good at reflecting on and finding these beautiful , joyful moments and holding them inside . I don't know , I don't know , and I think that's also comes to I . Also documentation is a lot reflective the way I use my social media . I make sure my social media is . I don't want it to be like a inauthentic space that everything you know is just happy all the time , but I do use it as a gratitude space to reflect on the beautiful moments . And so at the end of the week , if it's been a tough week and I think , oh , you know , what are you doing , should you be doing this I will use my Instagram post as a way of expressing joy and appreciation for the good stuff that's happened in the week . So I think I think that's a lot to do with it .
Nicki FarrellYeah , I was just going to say I think mindset . I think , if you want to know , the number one thing that makes a successful business is a business owners mindset , and I think everything you've been saying it's been about reflection and positive mindset , it's gratefulness , it's finding the good in those things , being able to be a scientist that experiments and is willing to fail . I think I think it's mindset . I think when you can fail and get back up again and have another , go and reflect on that and go , oh well , I'll try again . I honestly think anyone can run a business if you have the right mindset . And again , we I want to continue this conversation about seasons and whatnot and expectations on yourself , but I truly think if you're a lifelong learner and curious to learn , everything's available . It's on the internet . You know we talk about that . With learning and homeschooling as it is , there's no , no different to a child homeschooling or unschooling , as there is an adult learning how to do business without a business degree . Here we are , we're doing okay , yeah .
Gill HowarthYeah , it's very true , it's really true and also , I think , being okay with so . For me , everything about learning , no matter how old you are , is about getting to know yourself , and the more you know about yourself , you know , and I don't believe in just sticking to the areas we're really good at . I think it's a growth and an evolution . Is also about getting you know , paying attention to the things that we aren't so good at , but just not obsessing over those things . And , if you can , what I've managed to do is pair , pair up something I'm not I didn't know much about , which is business , with something I know a lot about , which is early childhood and nature , and though they complemented each other so beautifully . But the other thing is being welcoming in , support and help and other people who , you know , just thrive on doing the things that I'm not quite asked .
Gill HowarthThere's awesome art educated working with me now . Nat and I got her into BournWise because I started to observe that the children's art skills had gone beyond mine , as in their technical , physical skills . You know , I'm great at open-ended creativity , but I'm not so great at product and technique and skill , and the children were asking me questions about clay and I , you know , I was like I actually don't know and we can learn together . And part of learning together was finding Nat , and Nat came in and did a clay workshop for us and then I said I think I need you to be here all the time and welcome to BournWise .
Gill HowarthYeah , she's been here now I think it's maybe two or three years . She's running her own specialist art program on the same philosophy as BournWise , now as an extra program that we can offer . And you know that all came about just from me going OK , I know also well , I'm not good at it . I know I like to find people who are Good at the things I'm not good at . And I've got a gardening educator now as well , because we've got access to the farm that I run the programs at . We've access to that a lot more now , so we're running the program three day a week .
Gill HowarthIt's a beautiful organic farm and part of taking on that space is knowing how to take care of it and doing all the permit culture . And I thought , well , I know that when I'm at capacity , I'm pretty much at capacity in what I do football and why is it the moment ? So I thought I need someone else to come in and help with this . So we've got now an awesome garden educator who comes in and the beautiful thing is Carmen when she's gardening . Carmen is so good at what she does , it's such her passion and such her thing . And that's the same for Nat with her art , and I'm a big believer in community being about allowing people to shine in their purpose , and I think when we try to do everything by ourselves , that's when we just that doesn't even feel very good we're not built to be like that .
We're going to pause our conversation with Jill here for now because it's so juicy and getting quite long we thought we'd break it into two parts . So we understand a lot of you are listening to this on the drive to work or on your walks . It's nice to have shorter episodes to finish . So join us again next week as we continue this conversation with Jill . We talk about being enough , about forgiving yourself , about what Jill's days look like with young children , starting a new business and how what we're doing is , as running small business with children is almost an act of activism . Join in next week and until then , stay wild .