Nicki

In this episode, we continue our conversation with Robin Grill, international speaker, psychologist, and parenting educator. Robin is the author of three books: Parenting for a Peaceful World, Heart-to-Heart Parenting, and his newest title that we discussed last episode, Inner Child Journeys.

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to Raising Wildlings, a podcast about parenting, alternative education, and stepping into the wilderness, however that looks, with your family.

Nicki

Each week we'll be interviewing experts that truly inspire us to answer your parenting and education questions. We'll also be sharing stories from some incredible families that took the leap and are taking the road less travelled.

SPEAKER_00

We're your hosts Vicki and Nikki from Wildlings Forest School. Pop in your headphones, settle in, and join us on this next adventure.

Nicki

Hello and welcome to episode seven of the Raising Wildlings Podcast. I'm your host, Nikki Farrell. In this episode, we do a deep dive about parenting and how culture and science is so vastly different. We talk about smacking and how we can move away from this practice as a society. We discuss the collective wound of all civilization, the fact that we are tamers and how we went from belonging to nature to seeing ourselves as tamers of nature. We talk about how that's where authoritarianism began and how we became domesticators of everything, including our children and ourselves. It is a deep dive, my wildlings friends. Do be prepared. If you've had a tough parenting day, then I do recommend that perhaps hold off on this episode until you have a day where you're feeling like your cup is overflowing. Because there are some points where I can openly admit that I was triggered and that you may too. So in episode six, Robin covered what to do when we are triggered. And when we're triggered, he suggests spending some time going back into your childhood, feeling that feeling, and then processing what happened in that moment. Thank you for your patience. Thank you for your work. But right now we're going to jump straight back into where we left off last episode with Robin. Unfortunately, in a lot of our mainstream media, we're still getting a lot of those messages about perhaps smacking children and you know, um, letting babies cry to sleep and not picking them up and quote unquote coddling babies. And my mother's intuition screamed and screamed about that. And it wasn't until I picked up your book out of all the other parenting books that I was reading that your voice said to me, That's listen to it. That's what you're hearing is is is truth. So how do we get this out more?

SPEAKER_03

The disconnect between culture and and and established conventional evidence-based science, the disconnect between those two is absolutely cavernous.

SPEAKER_02

It's can't believe me neither.

SPEAKER_03

I'm I'm in absolute shock. I cannot believe what is still being given as advice by by health practitioners. Why is somebody still saying don't worry about leaving your baby crying alone in a room? Here's where the inner child is the way to explain it. What confronts us at the cultural level is that if I'm a health practitioner and I've been saying to people for years, don't worry about a crying baby, it doesn't matter, they forget it. And suddenly I have to accept a new thing. This do you know what I'm confronted with? It's much more than pride. That's that's not the biggest deal. The big deal is that suddenly I'm having to consider that that crying baby that nobody picked up was me. And and and the person that didn't pick me up was the greatest betrayal of all, which was the mum and dad that I adore. And I don't want to I don't want to be alien from a mum and dad. I uh they're precious to me. And the conflict that that sets up, and I now need to, it's this massive cognitive dissonance of you know, I was comfortable until you got me out of denial. Well that old rhetoric, I was fine, and the kids are yeah, and then you came with your bloody science and told me that um I will probably fight you and say, Look at me, I turned out fine. You know that story? I turned out fine. Listen, if you turned out fine, you would not be saying to people to abandon their babies. Okay, and you're abandoning you and you wouldn't be doing that if you weren't abandoning your own inner baby every day of your life.

Nicki

Oof, it's some deep work for everyone that's been triggered from this part of the conversation.

SPEAKER_03

Right. The the person that gives that advice is gonna be the person, is the person that does not know how to reach out when they when they want the comfort of a friend. You know, they're the kind of person that says uh pull yourself up by your bootstraps, gym, and it's that kind of that rigidity that really gets in the way of intimacy. And you know, where you see the wounding is of course you turned out fine. You're you're brilliant, actually. You're a great neighbor and a good com contributor to your community in so many ways. However, where you see the issues is in is in intimate relationships. Um, that's where you see, and in close friendships and and in parenting, that's where you see where those deep emotional wounds get played out. Uh so you're not fine. No, you no, you're not. You're you're hurt.

Nicki

How do we then because I I know I can think of dozens of people within my circles, particularly my older circles, that this will be really bringing up some discomfort. Um I'm talking mainly about the smacking. It's funny that it's coming back to that. How if if you've been if you've gone down that route as a parent, yeah, what would you say are some tips to to beginning to try to break out of that the old parent trap? You know, it was done to me, and so I don't know any different.

SPEAKER_03

Well, you know, I I I know from past experience of doing this the wrong way and and and um too many times, which is I'm not gonna start out by making you feel guilty for smacking your children.

Nicki

No, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Because I didn't smack my daughter, but look at all the other things that I did wrong for her, for her.

Nicki

My hands up over here too, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, right. So there are other ways to offend a child and wound a child that that don't involve smacking, and and you know, I'm in exactly the same boat. Whenever I was really overwhelmed, I'd go back to the old script of my ancestors and um um and was not a good person uh for my my daughter, and it hurts to admit it. So the first thing is to to to own that.

Nicki

Yeah, and I think like you said, just to reiterate, we it's really difficult, no one's going to get through parenting without doing that in some way. It's but we're gonna be exactly to do better.

SPEAKER_03

The the the first thing if if I'm gonna say, look, not a good idea to smack your child, uh it doesn't work for me to come off like I'm um like I'm like I've got a halo or like I'm your teacher, or or you know Yeah, yeah, naughty naughty, sit in the corner. No, all of that, yeah, none at all. I'll lose you in two seconds, and I don't even have the right to be in that position, or to come at you with a whole bunch of research which you're not gonna want to listen to, it doesn't matter how you do it. Um boring you won't work either. Uh trying to be self-righteous, and don't you know that it's legal in New Zealand and all of that is not gonna work either.

Nicki

And how many other countries did you say?

SPEAKER_03

Uh it's illegal, it's it's illegal, it's made illegal in another two or three or four countries every year. It's going to be global not long from now, uh, where it's it's it's the same as uh um basically it's domestic violence. It's like a husband smacking a wife, and everybody uh knows to be horrified by that. A wife at least might have a chance to complain, get redress, leave the you know, husband live somewhere else, um, do therapy. A child, you know, the damage is done and they've got no place to go. Um, and once you say this is normal and it was for your own good, then then the damage gets completely entrenched. That's that's the domestic violence on steroids, if you ask me. And it's recognized as such under the law now in I think 56 nations, including most recently France, Japan, almost all of Europe, about half a dozen South American countries, about four African countries, and um Australia is way behind. New Zealand since 2007, smacking a child is an act of domestic violence. And people say to me, Well, what about just a little smack on the wrist? Okay, what about your husband gives you a little smack on the wrist, and now you tell me, is that okay or not? So you tell me, I'm not gonna you tell me. So going back to your original question, how how do you reach somebody that goes, Well, I turned out fine, you know, I don't care how fine you turned out, let me put that to one side. What did it feel like for you to be smacked? Now, you usually people that are you have their blinkers on about that, which by the way, the blinkers are like for good reason, it's like an anesthetic over pain. So don't begrudge it. So you want to go tenderly here because somebody might look tough, but inside there's more pain that you can imagine. And you say then they they often might say something like, Look, I deserved that I was a brat, and and and there's humor, there's laughter about the fact that I got hit with a belt, you know, like ha ha ha, I got hit with a belt, what a joke. But I was a little brat, I had it coming to me, and that I needed that to get respect. And they usually will repeat the whole experience, not from the own point of view, but from the point of view of what the parent was saying about them. So that's like connecting with your childhood by disconnecting from your childhood because you're seeing it from another person's perspective like it wasn't your own. So then you say, Look, I really, really get it. What you did was you broke a window or whatever, or you threw your food, you're offended, you're I I get that. Um, and I know that well, that's what your parents told you about you. What did it feel like to be inside the body of a seven-year-old or whatever it was? What did that feel like for you on the inside? Um, and um because until you connect with that, and some people refuse to completely, and you will in your own time, not just because I pushed you towards it, you will do that in your own time. You know, I think right there, if you bring somebody to connection with their childhood, we owe it to them to be prepared to be a holding presence. I asked you to go there, so I need to be here for you and and to to give you all of my understanding because I know what it was like to be. I remember being caned in in primary school. It really hurts.

Nicki

I I didn't grow, I missed that era, and I just as a teacher cannot believe that teachers had that power.

SPEAKER_03

That's the shock of it that the teacher wants to do that. I mean, they put a lot of passion into creating as much pain as they could, they the the dedication to it was what's breathtaking, and like you come here and the preparation that taking a few swings, and uh it was like a a craft that they honed. That's what hurt because the pain in my hands would go away after an hour or so. Uh, a little bit of bruising. I was lucky because all I got is a little bruise. I had a mate who had a finger broken, and those stories were everywhere in Australia. I heard them all of the time. Uh, but what really stayed with me is the shock of the man's intent for talking too much in class for me. And um that's what my report cards were from childhood always bemoaned to my parents that Robin Grill would do better if he didn't talk so much in class.

Nicki

And imagine if you were if if your voice had been shut off. Imagine the people that wouldn't have been able to experience um the healing that you've been able to provide them if you had actually not spoken your truth.

SPEAKER_03

You know, I just think uh I wanted to socialize, I didn't really want to get into what the the poor soul at the front was trying to get me to learn because his job was force feeding me to learn something that I didn't care about, you know, and um I so I was trying to avoid that like the plague. Uh you know, and now now I get I I talk quite a bit, don't I?

Nicki

I've now you've set off a uh a burning flame in me about I have to be honest here, I'm a teacher, I've done this, I've been that person out the front. I haven't caned a child, let me clarify that. But where does our sense of that adultism and that childism come from where there's this separation of authority? Why do we need that separation of authority in our school system and this power to uh you know manipulate children?

SPEAKER_03

Well, yeah, you're asking a really deep now. You're asking an anthropology question. I think that what you've nailed right there is the number one collective wound of all civilization, all civilized humans, what we call civilization, which is living in state-based societies and um with big cities and stuff like that. We are tamers. The one thread that goes through all of these societies, the ancient ones as well, right? Is that we are at the core, we adapted to life on earth, we made a sudden changeover. We went from seeing ourselves as belonging to nature to people that are tamers of nature. So we have been doing that for 10,000 years. The anthropological record is that even though there's always been human violence, from the moment that we turned to surplus agriculture, that's when authoritarianism began. Um, whereas we used to be democratic, we moved into a state of kings and queens, and every civilization from the beginning was run by slavery. So we became domesticators of everything. Now you can't be a democratic style of parent and expect your kids to grow up to fit in with that kind of society. You must, must, must, but must beat them into obedience. And my first book was about the history of childhood. And if I told you what the people that still smack their children are far softer than what we used to be one generation ago and two generations ago, and on and on and on. Okay, so we are actually moving away from the the sort of the vulgar extent of violence. We're still very manipulative though.

Nicki

Oh yeah. But it's getting less and less, and that it filters into the schools, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03

It's um one of the jobs of school. You notice that schools don't ask kids what do you love? What are you interested in? No, you know, what what what are you passionate about? How how can it help you to follow your passion? School is um in every moment coercive. You know, the bell rings, you know, put your pen down, pack up, get out of here. Oh, but miss, I you know, I really I'm I'm in the flow state. I'm just immersed in this um in this poem I'm reading and um or writing and nah. Stand up, get out, quick.

Nicki

Next class.

SPEAKER_03

Next class. Um miss, I hate geography. Not my problem. So the the the job of a teacher is that some half of the kids will be interested in what you're saying, half of them will not. Your job is to force them to do it anyhow. You have been set up to be at war with at least half of the children in your class. When you see schooling systems that they where they they're give up authoritarianism, so you're still you're authoritative, you're still an authority, but not one that works through punishment and reward, not a coercive authority. So, what the driving force is is the interest in the child as in what is your passion, because what you naturally love, I'll help you to learn that and to perfect it and to be amazing at it. And learning is going to be joy and is going to be a feverish obsession, and it will be uh playful. And I have visited so many schools that work along that, it's called the emergent curriculum, and they have so many names: Democratic School or Sudbury School, or a whole range of them. Uh there they exist around the world, I've been to their conferences. There is zero reason why all schools can't be like this. Zero.

Nicki

It's difficult to do within if you're being audited to fit the Australian curriculum, but the relationship aspect and the way that these schools are run, it can absolutely be done by every school.

SPEAKER_03

Uh yeah, and and can and and furthermore, it can be done enjoyably. I mean, you know, it it's it's stressful being a teacher no matter where you are, and there's there's a there's a overwhelming kind of a career to accept, but um, there's always some drudgery, but but it's kind of like you know, going with the flow of the child instead of fighting against the child will save 90% of your headaches. Yeah, and really that is what's up for humanity right now to give up the very defunct old way of being thinking that we are in domesticators, that we are tamers, that we tame children, tame nature, tame, tame, tame, tame, tame. And in the moment you're over 25, you're suddenly the authority, you're authoritarian, and do as I say, or else why? Because I'm older. Um, that attitude pervades our parenting, our economics, our agriculture, our industry, and it's killing us in a planetary scale. That's no longer a surprise to anybody to hear me say that. And the only way out is to is to relearn how to be partners with children, partners with nature, and all of the systems for that are abundantly in place.

Nicki

Yeah, yeah, they're there. And the research is there again, it just it blows my mind. The education research, the attachment theory research, the environmental research. Yeah, it's all there.

SPEAKER_03

So it's all there. You know, with that, you know, parenting becomes about so much more about um being a guide, but being one that really listens, really, really listens to our child. You know, who are you? You're not an extension of me. You are you are you, who are you? What are the what are your passions, your propensities, your loves, and what is your language? What's your language, child? How do you speak your your inner inner world? And you know, that connection is worth everything. It's worth everything, everything.

Nicki

Oh, and it just makes life so much easier. Not just easier, but more enjoyable. It's so easier to dish out the love that the children need when you can connect on that level and and help them and help them so much.

SPEAKER_03

It's yeah, we've been doing it tough for 10,000 years, and to in my mind, tough is the opposite of strong. You know, it should never confuse the two.

Nicki

Yeah. All right, so let's have a go at our rapid fire questions. So, first one, and I've already given you a bit of the way about this, but what's your favorite? Let's let's just split this into two. What's your favorite current book if you're reading at the moment? And what's your favorite all-time book if you have one?

SPEAKER_03

My favorite current book? I'm really enjoying reading about the the um this book's called Masters of the Universe, and and it's the story of neoliberalism.

Nicki

Ooh, wow.

SPEAKER_03

And um, oh my god, understanding that makes you go, no wonder we got this terrible stuff going on in the world right now. It just explains everything so well. It just makes you go, aha.

Nicki

All right. What piece of advice do you wish someone had told you as a new parent?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Be prepared that you're going to find moments that you don't like yourself. You will be stretched to reactions that you'll really regret. Be prepared that that's coming, and you're not as good a bloke as you thought you were. You know, the next thing to say is when that happens and you see that the part of you that's that is that's not to be liked, the regrettable parts of you come out of your mouth. Be sure that you know that that's when you've been triggered, and that speaks to your deepest wounding, and you have an inner child journey ahead of you there, my friend. And and it will you'll be glad for it. After you apologize to your child, your actual child, then you'll be glad that your child's triggering showed you what remains unhealed inside you.

Nicki

It it is a healing journey.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Hey, I wish somebody had told me that, Nikki, before I I wish definitely I wish people had told me that a lot.

Nicki

Um, that would have been whenever I have a friend that gets pregnant for the first time. I'm just gonna send them that little snippet. Be prepared.

SPEAKER_03

Send them the snippet. And that parenting, you know, everyone thinks parenting is about uh rearing a child and getting it right for your child. Hang on a minute, you're looking at a small part of it. It's a personal growth journey. It if you accept that that's what it is, it will be the most magnificent personal growth journey. Like all personal growth journeys, it's going to be hard as well as well as exhilarating and joyful. Your heart will be larger if you let it be as a result. It's it's and it's a growth journey, adventure, adventure in in personal growth. There's a context that makes it far more tolerable when you get into the hot water and into the mud, a purpose that you can follow up on. That feels sacred to me. And the fact that no one says that and everyone says this is about bringing up the kids and nothing else. Come on, what a robbery that is. Your children are your teachers. They're your teachers. Don't miss it. You know, it's like missing the greatest story ever told.

Nicki

I've learned so I've learned more during this parenting journey, not just about my child, like raising children or myself, but about the world, like literally about how the world works and why it is the way that it is purely because I've had kids and it's powerful. I think you've summed it up right there that that's probably the essence of the episode is parenting is a is a powerful inner work journey.

SPEAKER_03

The greatest, yeah, I think so. Yep.

Nicki

All right. Question three. If you're having a rough day, and when you were oh, probably not now, because your your um girl is raised and out of the house now, am I right or not?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, she's 22, she's studying in an art college in Wellington, New Zealand.

Nicki

So if you're having a rough day, then what's your favorite place for uh to go and reset, reconnect, and rebalance?

SPEAKER_03

I notice how you ask it in the singular, that's very limiting.

Nicki

Oh, it is, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03

I'm I'm a bit helpless in front of nature.

Nicki

Okay, so we haven't had a single person yet say anything but nature, which is really affirming for us.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's good, isn't it? You know, this is this is where we're all the same.

SPEAKER_03

We um I'm I'm glad to hear you say that, actually, that everybody feels that. And you go into nature, whether it's the ocean um or a national park, or do you know what? If all you get got is a garden in the city, do that. And one of the things that it tells me, you know, even recently when I was getting really depressed, actually, and and in despair and angry about what's happening with the corona and and and the responses of governments and all that, yeah. I found that in my moments of great gloom about it, going to where nature is and seeing how unbothered nature is where it's healthy, and how everything is working perfectly, and how silly we must seem to them. And my lungs started to just take a deeper breath and go, oh, it's all okay, everything's okay. And that was gratitude, really, to the wisdom of the trees and the birds and um into you. It gets under your skin.

Nicki

It's really hard to not reset when you're out there. I was the same when I was feeling the anxiety, and and I I'm not an anxious person. I would never even claim that I've really had a truly anxious episode. I've been really lucky, but I was feeling it during the start of this whole virus and the lockdown. And but the garden, I'd I'm not I'm not a great gardener, but that's what got me through. I'd go out there and I'd lose hours and I would just reset. This is the last one. If you could change the Australian education system in any way, what would you change? I'm gonna limit you to one year because we could do a whole nother podcast on this.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, look, I'll put the restraints on. Um stop exams. Stop them. Wouldn't that be you you don't actually need exams to see where someone is at, and the curriculum needs to be negotiated with each individual child, and don't worry, that sounds idealistic. It's it's being done in so many places around the world. It it saves you work. It doesn't add it, it saves you work in the in the long run.

Nicki

Thank you so very much for coming on and for chatting for so long. I'm but yeah, I really appreciate and I really appreciate your vulnerability and and diving deep with me today. It's fantastic.

SPEAKER_03

And thank you. And I will say to you, I really, really appreciate your questions because it's the calibre of your questions that draws out the stuff that I uh love the most.

Nicki

Thank you so much for those kind words, Robin. I can't even begin to tell you the unpacking that I feel I need to do after this episode. Please don't hold any guilt around the things that we have done in our past as parents. We're not perfect. We are all flawed human beings. And that old saying of no better, do better. We can't do what we don't know, we can't be what we can't see. But what we would like to think is that we can try and help people do some of the work. So I'm leaving this episode A with some deep work, but also with some real inspiration and hope about instigating change in our education system here in Australia. But before we go, we want to thank you. And we have a huge favor to ask. We want to help more parents explore their inner child and help them on their self-growth journey. So if you haven't already, please subscribe to our podcast and share with a friend, or take a screenshot of the podcast artwork and post it on your Instagram. If you tag us, we'd love to share that on our stories. It might not seem like much, but your word of mouth is making a huge difference in how and where our podcast is reaching. And if you'd like a little inspo to help uh make some changes in the language that you use in your family, just head to www.wildlingsforestschool.com at forward slash free dash downloadables to get your free words of empathy and validation printable. Now that's also in our show notes, which you can find on our website under the Raising Wildlings Podcast. In our next episode, episode eight, Vicky and I will be taking a look at wild schooling. Now, if you're curious about what wild schooling is, what it might look like for us, what our children do, how they learn, how they do their numeracy and literacy outdoors, then this is the episode for you. So until then, stay wild and we'll chat to you next week.