In this episode, we're talking about the benefits of play, particularly right now in light of coronavirus and the role of outdoor play for family culture and community. Wondering how to create a habit of daily outdoor play for your family? Then this is the episode for you.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to Raising Wildlings, a podcast about parenting, alternative education, and stepping into the wilderness, however that looks, with your family.
NickiEach week we'll be interviewing experts that truly inspire us to answer your parenting and education questions. We'll also be sharing stories from some incredible families that took the leap and are taking the road less travelled.
SPEAKER_00We're your hosts, Nikki and Nikki from Wildlings Forest School. Pop in your headphones, settle in, and join us on this next adventure.
NickiHello and welcome to the Raising Wildlings Podcast. I'm your host, Nikki Farrell from Wildlings Forest School. Today we're lucky enough to be speaking with Linda Oaks and McGurk. Linda is a Swedish American journalist, blogger, and author of There's No Such Thing as Bad Weather. She believes that the best childhood memories are created outside and started the blog Rain or Shine Mama to inspire other parents and caregivers to get outside with their children every day, regardless of the weather. Now, before we start, don't forget to subscribe so that you're notified when our next episode drops. But let's get chatting to Linda. So hi Linda, thanks for making the time to chat with us today. Hi, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be joining you.
SPEAKER_02How is the weather over in Sweden today? You know, today it's actually we got uh blue skies and uh sun. So um yeah, knock on wood, but uh I think uh today's gonna be a really good day for for being um outside and and um yeah just enjoying enjoying the weather because this is uh this is not typical for over here.
NickiAnd we're the exact opposite here. We live on the sunshine coast and it's currently dusk, pouring with rain, and I'm going to say cold, but that's laughable to a Sweden. So I think it's about 20 degrees Celsius.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So having grown up in Sweden, you really know to appreciate these days when it's like really stunning and comfortable outside. And uh we have a saying here that you know you gotta take advantage. Passa poa, you gotta passa poa. Take advantage because you don't know how long it's gonna last. And I've heard this growing up. Like because you enjoy it so much more because it's so rare. So um, so that's why you gotta take advantage.
NickiLet's let's talk about that. So, for people that don't know, you authored a book called There's No Such Thing as Bad Weather, which is a phrase that we must say to the children at our forest school programs anytime that it's not blue skies and sunny. But talk to us about how why you decided to write the book and how that's I guess changed the way that you parent. Right.
SPEAKER_02Um, well, I uh like I said, I grew up in Sweden, but I I moved to the States um when I was in my 20s, and then I had my kids over there, and I realized that the culture uh surrounding outdoor play was very different uh in Indiana, where I raised the kids than it had been for me growing up in Sweden. Uh whereas we were outside playing in any type of weather over here in Indiana, it was uh much more restricted, or it was just not happening in the winter time. Uh so at the preschool, you know, the kids weren't outside and at school there was no outdoor recess if it was you know the least bit rainy or windy or whatever. So that made me think about these differences in thing. And the schools would often close uh, you know, in the winter. And I and I like for for the cold, I got a little frustrated because there was a bit of culture clash going on, and I I wanted to write about the Swedish culture of outdoor play and hopefully sort of get those ideas out there because I so I felt like the kids were really missing out on something, like an essential part of the whole childhood experience by being confined to the indoors, you know, whenever the weather wasn't exactly perfect. So, um, so that was kind of the the background too is I started uh writing it when my first daughter was born, and then it it just uh took off from there.
NickiSo, with that, let's talk about the benefits of outdoor play, particularly right now when so many children are still in isolation and having to practice social distancing in this time of coronavirus. Where are you at in Sweden with uh lockdown and and whatnot?
SPEAKER_02So we've actually been pretty spared over here. Sweden has gone a completely different direction than most countries, I'd say. I've read about it in in international media. We've been highlighting international media.
NickiI've been reading about your approach here as well. It's definitely an anomaly amongst all the other countries, which has been really interesting to follow.
SPEAKER_02Right. The virologists and experts, other experts, they've all recommended going outside. You know, go outside, get some sun, get your vitamin D. It's crucial for the immune system. Just keep your distance. And I think this is a little different from what it has been. I know in some countries it's been very severe where you basically can't leave your apartment. And to me, that just seems like a nightmare. And it seems misdirected.
NickiYeah, I can't imagine the poor parents in those apartments in Spain and Italy that weren't allowed to leave with their children.
SPEAKER_02The research I've done uh and that I did when I wrote my book is I I I learned a lot about the transmission of disease and how it happens and why children at forest schools tend to be healthier and have less sick days, and it's because viruses and bacteria they just don't transmit as well when you're outdoors because you're you're naturally you know at a greater distance from each other, there's more space to spread out.
NickiYeah, there's less common contact surfaces too. They're not sharing the same toys as they would in a daycare center. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So it's interesting. I was reading just the other day that in Scotland, uh, I think the government is now eyeing uh forest schools as uh a possible way to get out of this um, you know, when they're starting to reopen, they're looking at forest schools and what they do and uh may be able to use that as a model for other, you know, traditional preschools, just apply apply that on traditional preschools. So it's gonna be very interesting to see yeah, if this pandemic will have any lasting change um and if it will give another boost to the forest school movement, because I felt like it was really it really had momentum before this happened, and then all of a sudden everybody was on a lockdown and it seemed like going outside was dangerous, and I was afraid that oh shoot, now we're gonna take a step back because now everybody thinks that it's dangerous to be outside, which couldn't be more wrong. But now hopefully people are starting to realize that the outdoor learning is really a good idea from a health perspective. So, and yeah, so aside from those obvious benefits when it comes to the transmission of disease, there I mean there are loads of other benefits as well. I mean, we have this trifecta of lifestyle diseases, obesity, heart disease, diabetes, um, and outdoor play basically counteracts all of those. Nearsightedness is another one in China today. I mean, we have this epidemic of um myopia or uh short-sightedness. And uh in China today, I was just reading that 90% of the teenagers and young adults have it. And in in South Korea, it's 96.5%. I mean, these are staggering. Not much? 96.5%. What was that? No, that's what I thought you said. Um it's insane. And they used to think that it was because these kids were maybe using screens too much and like staring that it was the staring at the screens, but now they've gravitated towards, they actually think that it's uh rather the lack of outdoor play or time out spent outdoors because um, you know, when you're outdoors, you have objects that uh uh, you know, a lot of different um lengths and uh distances. So when you're inside, you just the eye just doesn't get that stimulation.
NickiSo I just had a story about my optometrist when I went there, we got talking about forest school, and he said forest school would be the best thing for my clients. It was exactly that for that exact reason. He said, Children don't look up and look into the distance, you know, hunter-gatherer people, we were forever looking into the distance, and now we're looking less than a meter in front of us all day. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, aside from the physical benefits, um, and and yeah, and also um I forgot to mention um motor skills too. So balance, coordination. They're also better developed uh in children at forest schools. There are actually studies on that, absolutely, as well as mental mental health benefits. Um, you know, it counteracts um symptoms of depression and anxiety can all be uh helped when you're outside and and in adults as well.
NickiSo I was just about to say it's not just for kids. I find whenever I walk down into forest school, I can just feel my whole body relax. Oh, yes. It's my happy place.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, it's mine as well. Um, and like whenever if the kids and I are having a rough day, um there are very few uh things that we haven't been able to fix by going outside. It's like all the tension just is kind of released, and and uh nature just has this soothing effect, I think, on our um on our minds. So it's really amazing.
NickiYeah, you have to be really present in nature, I think. It's really hard for your brain to be elsewhere when there's so many beautiful and wonderfully joyous things to look at in nature. Right. Okay, so to those parents that are listening that might struggle to get their children outdoors or are a bit afraid of getting letting their children get muddy, we see this all the time when kids come down and the first thing they say when they see the creek is, Oh, my mum won't let me get these shoes dirty.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah.
NickiI don't know, breaks my heart. Yeah. What's the one piece of advice that you would give them to help them to create a habit of daily outdoor play? What I mean, what's the easiest way to get started?
SPEAKER_02Oh well, I I was gonna say I don't think I can keep it to one. Easiest ways? Yeah, but I think that I think the part you gotta start with, because you gotta start in the right spectrum. I think that you gotta rethink uh the way you think about playing outdoors and really start to prioritize it. Because I think it hasn't, I don't think it's been prioritized lately. It used to be just uh just a a normal part of children's lives, but today it's a lot harder. We got we gotta compete with electronics and and um all that stuff. So I think parents today have to work a lot harder to get kids outside. I mean, I noticed it with my own kids. You know, with my generation, we went outside a lot of the time because there was nothing else to do. But today the world at their fingertips, right? So um uh if you're apprehensive about kids getting dirty and just getting the facts and sort of working on your own biases towards weather and so forth, and thinking about all the benefits instead of you know thinking, oh crap, it's raining, you know, let's just stay on the couch. Um, you know, that's that's the reason why I wrote my book because I wanted to write sort of a manifesto of sorts that people could read and just sort of um to get that sort of research back, yeah, the the fundamentals uh of why we should be going outside with our kids. So start there and then I'd say just do it in baby steps. It's better to create like a daily habit of going outside for a little bit than just saving it all for the weekend, uh thinking that you know, well, you I don't have time. Or um, you know, there's a great graphic of this. It's called the Nature Pyramid, and um it's showing sort of different levels of um outdoor recreations. Um so at the bottom of the pyramid is you know the things that you can do on a daily basis. Maybe it's uh uh it's like using your nearby nature, the nature, you know, whatever nature you have outside your door, the things that you can easily get to. Maybe it's just a parcel of woods nearby, or maybe a city park or something like that. And then the further you get up the pyramid, the the bigger the adventures. So on the weekends, maybe you'll drive somewhere to a park or area, you know, a little farther away. And at the top of the pyramid, you have like the big, big adventures, maybe uh like a trip that you you'll uh plan for, you know, to do once a year or something like that, like a big backpacking trip or something. And I find it useful because you know, you look at it and you uh realize that the everyday stuff, I think that's what's ultimately is gonna have the biggest influence on the kids.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So and then as as far as dirt goes and clothes and like I my kids, I like I highly recommend getting just you know uh hand-me-downs uh that you don't have to care about that much. Like I've always had different sets of clothes for my kids. If we buy new clothes, you know, that may not be for uh rolling around in the creek, you know. Um, but if that's an old hand-me-down, uh then that's okay.
NickiYeah, I do think that's one of the barriers is that people buy such nice clothes for their children now because we can afford to, because we live in wealthy countries now that they are hesitant to let them get dirty, and it's it's just one of the saddest things to see.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So yeah, I think it's crucial to invest in some, you know, good clothes, clothes that is um adapted for your climate. So where I live, uh, you know, especially in the wintertime, obviously you need um clothes that are well insulated. Uh, you need uh really good like boots and uh winter boots and things like that. But a good pair of um muck boots or rain boots, I think those are universal. I think you can use those um pretty much anywhere in the world for creek explorations and side building and whatnot. But it's yeah, I I can't emphasize enough how important it is for the kids to have that freedom of getting dirty. Uh, and that's actually good for their health too, because there's uh bacteria and the dirt that actually is beneficial to our mental health, uh, as strange as that may sound.
NickiNo, it's we have to remind people this all the time. So I'll actually link to one of our articles that link to the research on this as well about that. I I just want to add there for our audience, just a reminder that Linda's in Sweden and that she's getting out in. How low would will you take temperature-wise, your children out in in snow?
SPEAKER_02Um, I I'll I'll say this. There hasn't been a day when I haven't been out with the kids because it's been too cold. And that includes um actually in Indiana, where winters can sometimes be more severe than in Sweden, believe it or not. But we have some really cold uh some periods of what they call the polar vortex. I don't know if you heard about it. Wow, yes, yeah, but I think when wind chill, the temperature was like negative 40 Celsius. Oh my goodness.
NickiI've only been out in weather like that for two days in my life, and it was intense. With it with all the gear, it's intense. So I'm just gonna clap you there because I think that's amazing. So for all of you Queenslanders out there that don't have rain jackets when we're in a rainy state, uh-huh, please go and get rain jackets. If you get nothing else out of this podcast, go get your family op shop rain jackets, gum boots. And also here we're at the beach a lot. So maybe some reef shoes if you're worried about cutting your feet on barnacles and oysters and things like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. For you guys, it might be more important uh with like UV clothing as well to make sure your um protected since you get a lot more sun exposure, those uh long-sleeved uh swimsuits and things like that, obviously um important.
NickiBut um we've seen a real hike in what they're calling fishing shirts here. They're just a really lightweight UV. So rather than the light current, a really lightweight shirt. Yeah, and it's been really heartwarming to see kids out in the heat of the day but still being sunprotected.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, it's all about um adjusting or or you know, working with the weather. Um, because I get a lot of questions about that, because my book is, you know, it talks a lot about cold climate, of course, but then I get questions about hot weather as well. And I think it's it's all about sort of um uh going with with the weather. So if it is uh you know oppressively hot out, try to pick a time when it's less hot outside. So maybe you're outside more like really early in the morning or late at night, obviously try and stay in the shade and and and be okay with less activity, you know, maybe because there are times when it's just too hot to do much, and I don't want people to to feel guilty because they're not out hiking in the in the midst of summer, because sometimes it's just too hot, but it's still important to to get outside and um maybe you can just uh you know make sure to have water around, like for example, a super simple thing to do.
NickiI think that's a really important point. I think when people think about going outside, they're assuming that we're exercising. So, particularly here in Queensland and during our heat waves, people are thinking they need to stay inside because it's they don't, you know, it's it's it is too hot. But exactly. Add water, go out in the evening, take your mozzie and bug repellent, and it might just be sitting outside on the deck or sitting outside in the backyard in the shade. It's getting that fresh air and that sunlight still, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So, on that, talking about being um taking kids out into the cold, we still get this, and it doesn't even get cold here. Like the chances of catching hypothermia in Queensland are so low, and yet we still get people concerned that their children are going to catch a cold from the cold.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. Yeah, this is common um misperception. It's uh don't swim after you after you ate because you'll drown, uh, and you know, don't go out with cold uh with uh wet wet hair. There are a lot of a lot of um wives tales that unfortunately are still around. And uh being outside in cold weather is not uh does not increase your risk of getting sick. I mean, I'd say it's the other way around. Uh so here in Scandinavia at the the daycares and preschools, you know, they actually put the babies out to nap in their strollers all year round, including in you know, negative temperatures. Um, in Finland, there are examples. Um I've probably drawn the line somewhere around negative 10 or negative 15, but in Finland, there are babies who nap outside in like negative 25, to mention too that that the infant mortality rate in Finland is among the lowest in the world. So yeah, I I know this sounds crazy to a lot of people, but seriously, it's um according to the research that has been done, which is not much, but there's some research in uh the babies just they tend to take longer and deeper naps outside and they have a healthier appetite and they're more alert when they wake up after a nap outside in the cold um than if they sleep inside.
NickiIt makes sense when you look at our anthropological history. We we haven't been indoors for that long, so it makes sense that we're we'd still be playing catching up.
SPEAKER_02And saying it's like I remember myself growing up, my parents would always say, Well, go outside, you know.
Nickithe fresh air is the fresh air is good for you and uh that's what I tell my kids about to as well um but lately you know there's been a lot of research that's actually you know the research is starting to catch up and it's backing backing them up so that's that's really neat I think that we're finally seeing some hard facts that uh yeah fresh the fresh air is good for you it is good to get outside it's uh it's a little sad isn't it that all of these things that we intuitively know people don't really believe until science backs it up but I'm really glad that there's that research out there now so that we can say yes it is true.
SPEAKER_02Yeah because some people need that reassurance you know that they need that it's good it's good that that the research is done.
NickiAbsolutely what is the role of outdoor play for family, culture and community?
SPEAKER_02Having grown up here in Sweden uh what we call three lufslive or um open air uh life is what it loosely translates to has always been a very keen presence in my life um and this is part of a tradition passed on um from generation to generation so it's part of our well I'd say both family culture and national culture being outside in our nature areas it really makes us connected to those places and I think that's important because if you know we want to protect those places and so so so there's so many levels to this. So you want to create this you know it starts at the family level where you want to create this habit of going outside every day and connecting with nature and then at the community level it's about connecting with others who you know have the same interests and and um and sort of trying to spread it on that level on a on a higher level you know is trying to get it into schools and in you know other institutions on on and um and in Sweden we're pretty in Sweden this is sort of embedded in all uh levels of society it it's just a great way to connect as a family and uh and a lot of families just they make it a part of of their everyday lives and that's exactly what feed of sleep is about it's it's a type of sl I want to call it slow nature because it's not about these it's it's not just any outdoor activity. It's not like going water skiing or uh you know like these action activities it's more of a uh just just go outside in the simplest form just um it could just be walking your dog around the neighborhood um being in nature is both the the means and the goal um there you don't need a specific agenda or any expensive equipment um it's supposed it's supposed to be simple because if it's you know if it's too complicated it just it doesn't happen for a lot of people so and I think it's really important to to have um to have this sort of consensus around outdoor play among all the adults that kids encounter in their lives so it's not just the the parents who are constantly going on about you know going outside but it's also the preschool teachers the teachers doctors um you know any adult uh in that deals with children you know if you have this sort of consensus and this understanding that outdoor play is really beneficial then all of you can sort of help create this culture um so in places where this culture is not as prevalent then then you you'll have to work on these different levels to to get there and um I think connecting with other families is really a wonderful way of doing it um partly because the kids tend to uh enjoy outdoor play more if it's done with friends or you know just other kids there's a group dynamic which um you see in in forest schools I'm sure yeah I would if if I was going to recommend anything to take with you to when you have to be friends even over equipment good clothes and good friends and you're set that's right so uh let's start with the first rapid fire question.
NickiWhat's your current favorite book or your longtime favorite book and why?
SPEAKER_02Um obviously one that was has been a great um inspiration to me as um Last Child in the Woods by Richard Lube. He's been uh you know the basically the founder of this whole you know movement to get children back outside and it it just made a profound profound impact on me. It's like my little um yeah my little Bible uh here um our social media pages are just filled with quotes from that book I highly recommend it um and also one that I read more recently is the Nature Fix by Florence Williams it's also a a good one um talks about lots of the benefits of nature um of just being outside in nature but it it does it in a very uh she uses herself as the sort of um uh to to move the narrative um through it throughout the book and and uh there are a lot of it's really interesting uh things in that book so what piece of advice do you wish someone had told you was a brand new parent to uh put my uh smartphone in the hands of my toddler thinking that it would be uh you know a good way to distract her uh for a few minutes while I was trying to do something because it's like crack to them so I would have delayed a lot more um the you know the whole introduction of electronics um I was still pretty strict and also it's hard if you have other people uh taking care of your kids it's hard to you know they they're influenced by um you know what they do at the babysitters or whatever and delay delay delay because there will be a day when you it's it's gonna be out of your control i I now have a tween and um it's it's to that point where um where smart her smartphone is very much um an you know a big part of her daily life and uh that's you know that's I think one of the most common battles for parents today is like trying to balance screen time with green time. So it's something where it's hard enough for us at all isn't it I mean some days I'm totally the worst offender. I'm the first to admit that but I do also put my phone away completely some days and we've done some um I've experimented with screen free sundays with the kids and um you know I yeah I there are different things you can do to try and counteract it but we also have to adapt to this new new order.
NickiSo have to be all right if you're having a rough day with your kids what is your favorite place uh for you and your family to go to reset, reconnect and rebalance?
SPEAKER_02I we typically go outside um preferably the woods but also you know down to the lake I find that the water has a very calming effect. I love just going to the woods and uh just letting the kids do their things and not not pushing anything on anybody but just sort of letting everybody relax and uh typically you know nine times out of ten I'd say um we were better off um afterwards than we were before so it's it's effective.
NickiAbsolutely all right last question and you probably don't have much to change actually in this if you could change the education system in your country this is generally aimed at people from say Australia or America in any way what would you change?
SPEAKER_02Oh I would still promote more I I wish they would promote even more outdoor learning. I think we're good at really good about it here in Scandinavia during the early years like the preschools um are very good about getting the kids outside even like uh traditional preschools that are not forest schools are very good about getting the kids outside every day. But as the kids get older they get stuck uh you know at their desks more and more so so I think I think incorporating outdoor learning uh more actively because I think studies have shown that that when you combine outdoor learning and out and indoor learning that's when you get the best results. So you I mean there are very few things that you can't teach outside. So I think uh yeah I I definitely think we could do better there.
NickiYeah I wholeheartedly agree from Australia's point of view but we've got nothing on where you are well that finishes us up here Linda thank you so much for joining us and for so quickly from all the way over in Sweden and starting your day with us while we're ending our day here.
SPEAKER_02Well it was very nice chatting with you today.
NickiI appreciate the opportunity to to talk a little bit about my of course a a subject that I'm uh very passionate about so yeah and if you haven't read Linda's book There's no such thing as bad weather highly recommend it. I've got two more chapters I'm going to finish tonight but it's been a a really eye-opening read about uh what's possible in the school system. So thanks for putting such amazing inspiring work out there and for changing the world one book at a time. We really appreciate it. Wow what an inspiration Linda's completely re-inspired me to take my kids on one excursion day a week whether that's hiking a mountain or chasing waterfalls around the Sunshine Coast or just free playing at the beach with friends on top of our normal exercise. We hope Linda has inspired you to think about how you can add more outdoor play time into your family's week and reminded us all that outdoor play is an essential part of childhood and that we as parents and adults have a true responsibility to protect it and promote it. Before we go we want to thank you. You Wildlings have been incredible at sending us to the top of the charts on launch week charting at number one in Australia number two in New Zealand and Ireland number three in Great Britain and top ten in many other countries across the world with your mad subscribing skills. We couldn't have done it without you and we are so eternally grateful for your support. We want to help more parents learn about how children learn and the importance of play so if you haven't already please subscribe to our podcast and share it with a friend or take a photo, take a screenshot of the podcast artwork and post it on your Instagram or Facebook pages and we'll share that on our stories. It might not seem like much to you but your word of mouth is making a huge difference in how and where and who our podcast is reaching. And if you'd like a little inspiration to get your family outside head to www dot wildlingsforestschool dot com forward slash free dash downloadables to get your free nature scavenger hunt printable. Thank you and until next week stay wild