Vicci 0:00

In this episode, we're talking about nature play groups, why we're so passionate about them, and some of the misconceptions people might have when they go to attend one. So, wondering if Nature Playgroup is for you? In this episode, we answer that question. Welcome to Raising Wildlings, a podcast about parenting, alternative education, and stepping into the wilderness, however that looks, with your family.

Nicki 0:26

Each week we'll be interviewing experts that truly inspire us to answer your parenting and education questions. We'll also be sharing stories from some incredible families that took the leap and are taking the road less travelled.

Vicci 0:39

We're your hosts, Vicki and Nikki from Wildlings Forest School. Pop in your headphones, settle in, and join us on this next adventure.

Nicki 0:54

Hello and welcome to episode 20 of the Raising Wildlings Podcast. We're your hosts, Nikki Farrell and Vicky Oliver.

Vicci 1:01

20 episodes. What a milestone. Who would have thought in January that we would be starting a podcast, let alone be up to our 20th episode already?

Nicki 1:10

Ah, it's been such a steep but rewarding learning care for both of us. I don't know if our audience knows this, but Vicki has become a self-taught audio editor, which just, you know, it goes to show that unschooling works, right? No, exactly.

Vicci 1:24

More in the last four years of running business than I have my entire learning career.

Nicki 1:30

If you could see, and we need to do this, a behind the scenes of what goes into putting a podcast together, you would see Vicky up at all sorts of hours uh editing this podcast. And I'm so proud of the work that she does, and I'm so grateful because I did it for about five minutes, gave up, and got so close.

Vicci 1:46

But it's so good because I get to actually hear all of the whole entire episodes, particularly the ones that I'm not sitting in for. The interviews that you do is so good that I can actually hear all of that. I get my own special preview. So I I actually really enjoy doing it.

Nicki 2:02

Uh I'm so grateful that we have opposite skills.

Vicci 2:05

That's why we work so well as a business because what one of us hates the other one is quite happy to do.

Nicki 2:10

Yeah, and then and then on the other hand, I've really learned to have to put on my big girl knickers and approach some of our, you know, some of our idols to come on and chat. And that's been big for me for having to ask for help in one of them. And um, I guess just seeing people as humans. Everyone has been so approachable and so generous, and just going, oh, people are good.

Vicci 2:32

They are, they really are, and we've had so many moments of just like awe and learning and yeah, and being able to share that with our audience has been something that's really, really special.

Nicki 2:46

So rewarding. And as far as I guess achievements go, we've unbelievably been in the top 10 shows in the parenting section on Apple Podcasts since we started. Just can't believe what we've accomplished with this podcast already. The people we've met, the things that we've learned, and the positive effects it's had on our business, which in turn has enabled us to encourage more families outdoors more often, which is, you know, that's why we're here.

Vicci 3:11

That's why we're here. And in talking about helping more families, we've actually got a little download for you on our website at wildthingsforestschool.com forward slash free dash downloadables. And it's a little forest fairy nature craft template. So you can print that out and then you can use different nature items, leaves and flowers and petals or even gum nuts to create your own little forest fairy. It's a really cute little template.

Nicki 3:37

It's so cute. And as another bonus, uh, if you're a playgroup coordinator or a childcare worker or parent, we think you'll love our friend Brooke's books. She's got a book out called Your Wild Imagination, and her brand new book that just dropped this week is called Your Wild Child. So each of these books includes more than 20 different nature play activities, and they're aimed at around children two to 12 years. But Vicki and I were chatting this morning when she received our order for our online shop that you know we've been talking about creating a book like this. It was on our list of projects probably well since we started, really. And then Vicki said as soon as she saw Brooks, it was like, nope, that's it, that's done.

Vicci 4:15

She's done an incredible job. And we've looked at so many different nature books and craft books and been on Pinterest. And when when we had a vision for something like this, the one thing we both said is it really needed to be just stunningly beautiful. And what Brooke has done with this book is exactly that. It is a stunning book, and I think that it would be such an amazing resource and addition to anyone that works with children or just parents who are looking for a bit of inspiration.

Nicki 4:46

And it ticks all those boxes for us. It seriously is exactly what we've been searching for, and it's Australian-based nature craft, it's printed in Australia, photographed by an Australian photographer, and it's written by Brooke, who lives in Adelaide, and in she's an experienced and passionate nature play advocate. So we are really happy that we've uh partnered together, and you can get 10% off your purchase of your Wild Imagination and your Wild Child from either our online store at wildlingsforestschool.com/slash shop or Brooke's online store, which is wildimagination.com.au. And both of us will be running the discount code Wildlings. Just a note that needs to be in all caps, and that code will be valid until the end of October.

Vicci 5:29

We are so excited to be partnering with such a like-minded, women-owned, child-centered business, and we're so proud of what Brooke has accomplished. And who run the world? Girls. Girls. Girls.

Nicki 5:41

So today we're doing things a little bit differently because yes, it's us chatting about a topic that we're passionate about, but today I'm going to try and interview Vicky as much as we can about nature playgroups because Vicki's play group is what started Wildlings Forest School. So, Vicki, can you tell us what it was that led you to starting Little Wildlings back in what year?

Vicci 6:02

2014. I think I started the very first version of Little Wildlings. And I started that because I'd originally been to a playgroup in Mackay where we lived for the first two years of my eldest daughter's life. And I went to a playgroup there and it was phenomenal. I loved it so much. And I wanted to create that here on the Sunshine Coast because there was nothing like it here. And it was more of a Steiner influence playgroup in Mackay, and I started off that way, and it quickly evolved for a number of different reasons. But the main reason I wanted to start it was because I wanted to find like-minded families who wanted to meet and see our children grow up together. So that was my original inspiration, and that's exactly what happened. And I still have those long-term friendships with people even now. My children have friendships with those children that they have known since the very beginning.

Nicki 6:56

It's so special, isn't it?

Vicci 6:58

Yeah, it's so special. And it's and I know that that's what so many new mums are looking for.

Nicki 7:02

Yeah, and I think that's really important, is that often people they're not actually coming to Playgroup for they're not looking for an activity for their children. They're looking, they're using Playgroup as a place to meet like-minded parents.

Vicci 7:16

Yes, and I think so, especially when you have really little babies. You know, when you're a new mum, you are looking to connect, you are looking to find other people who can empathize with what you're going through to be able to support you through those difficult decision making and and worrying about what we're doing as parents and finding out that we're quite normal and everything that we're experiencing is being experienced by other people. We're sharing that together, which is, I think, why so many mums feel isolated because they haven't necessarily found that.

Nicki 7:46

Yeah. So what was missing for you from other play groups? And and just remember to our listeners that this is a personal opinion.

Vicci 7:53

Yeah, this is my personal opinion and observation. What I I think there's a few things that went for me missing with other playgroups. And the first one was that we were really drawn to being outside. So I found that I was more easily entertained and my children were more easily entertained when we were actually using the outdoor space. So a lot of playgroups are run, say, in halls or in churches, and it there's just an ease that comes from being outside. So I think that was missing. And then also just finding some people that are like-minded in the way that we are approaching the parenting journey. That definitely was a little bit mixed. So finding people that do have some similarly aligned ideas about what kind of parent we want to be and what we want for our children, that helps a lot as well.

Nicki 8:42

Yeah, yeah. It's probably something we don't advertise a lot on our nature play groups, is that there is a lot of respectful communication and respectful parenting that goes on, not just from us as coordinators, it's the parents that we seem to attract, parents that are very mindful about the way that they speak to their children, which is just beautiful. I've learned so much over the years from our parents, more than any parenting book.

Vicci 9:09

Yeah, yeah, indeed is. It's a watching it in action is something to behold because you're actually seeing how it how it's been spoken and then also how it's being received from the children as well, which uh you you can't really get out of a book.

Nicki 9:22

Yeah. Can you talk to us about some of the things you've learned over the years about the way children learn in that age group?

Vicci 9:29

One of the main things that I've learned about the way that children learn is that they really truly learn when the learning is in their hands, when they have the freedom to choose what they're going to do rather than being quite adult-centered. So a lot of the way that our playgroups have evolved have come from that central idea that children really are in charge of their own learning, whether you like that or not, whether you are trying really hard to attain an outcome to see an end product, the children will only learn what they want to learn, what they're interested in learning at that time or what they're ready for.

Nicki 10:03

I can, sorry, I'm just giggling, I can think of an example where I had a quite complex cutting activity and the parents really got into it. The parents enjoyed the activity, but the children just enjoyed cutting a ball of string with the scissors, and that's all they did. And they loved it. And I know that could have been the activity, but in my head I was trying to please the parents instead of the children.

Vicci 10:27

Yeah, and I think that comes down to some of these misconceptions that we see and those expectations of what it is that we provide. And yeah, it's it's interesting because obviously we're building our programs based around the philosophies that we truly believe in and what we have learnt about children and education and in the way that they learn.

Nicki 10:51

So, and let's caveat that. If someone else is running a nature play group and it's different to ours, we are so in support of what you're doing because that works for you and your your families.

Vicci 11:03

And you creating what you feel is needed for your family and your children and the children in your community.

Nicki 11:09

That's right. Yeah, this is just what we have chosen to run based on our experiences. So let's let's backtrack a little and what is Nature Playgroup?

Vicci 11:18

Yeah, so Nature Playgroup for us is aimed at zero to three year olds, although we do often get families coming all the way up to sort of your preschool age children up to six. And it's basically a nature immersion group. It's not specifically about skill building. Skill building happens as part of what we do, but it's not the aim, it's not, it's not the entire purpose. Uh our nature play groups are set in nature spaces that we're trying to find quite wild spaces, somewhere that will provide complexity and challenge for children. But we also include a seasonal song circle. So our songs will change based on the seasons, but they're also just about having a bit of fun and body movement. Then there's also a seasonal story time, so this is like a Steiner-influenced activity. And for me personally, when I run playgroups, I like to do oral storytelling with props because I really find that fun. And um, we've got beautiful families like one of my dear friends who creates these amazing felt mats, Little Clan Wild. So using those props in the seasonal story time, and then we also provide a seasonal craft or activity, but that's something that's got to be super simple.

Nicki 12:37

Yeah, we'll delve into that in just a second. I think I'd only think I'd like to add to that is that our main purpose is to build a village to gather children for free play in nature.

Vicci 12:48

Yes.

Nicki 12:49

If if that was if we were going to sum it up, it actually wouldn't be about the songtime storytelling craft. It would actually be about the free-minded families for free time in nature.

Vicci 13:00

Yeah, it's community, it's and it's free play in nature. And I think that message sometimes gets lost a little bit.

Nicki 13:07

Yeah, so let's talk about that. So we're going to start breaking down some of the myths or misconceptions about what Nature Playgroup here at Wildlings is. Again, this isn't other people's playgroups, this is what we offer here. Yeah. Um, and probably one of the ones that we get is well, we could go to the creek ourselves and we could do it for free. Let's chat about that.

Vicci 13:27

Yeah. We get this. A few people have said, Oh, I love what you do, but I do that with my children already. And my first reaction is, thank you. That's amazing. Fantastic. We are so glad that we could do that. That is exactly what we want to see.

Nicki 13:43

That's exactly why we do what we do, is that we offer playgroup in the hopes that it will encourage groups to get together and do it for free, or that you'll meet people in our playgroup that you can then go and create your own group with for free.

Vicci 13:57

That's exactly what happens. And a lot of the people we get attending playgroup, uh people that are new to the area or uh looking to make some mummy connections because let's face it, a lot of the time when we have babies, sometimes we are not surrounded by people who are also having children. So it can be a lonely space and we're looking for those people. So if we can help you find some people to meet with regularly, then that then we are heartsful. That's exactly what we want to see.

Nicki 14:26

Yeah, more of it, please. Yeah, honestly.

Vicci 14:28

Yeah, yeah.

Nicki 14:29

But the reason we continue to offer that is the flip side of this, is and we're as guilty of this as anyone, is that often free things aren't valued. No, people are a bit more flaky. If there's something to turn up to that's free, people are much less likely to attend. To commit uh yeah, that if you don't pay for something, often you don't commit to them. And I'm super guilty of this. Prior to Playgroup and playing for it, I didn't go out in nature much with my babies. But then once I committed and I paid, it was this commitment for me to get out of the house, get our rain gear if we needed it, and go out and be in nature for a an a length of time. It wasn't two hours, you know. No, more often than not, it was three or four hours that we were down.

Vicci 15:12

Oh, yeah, for sure. I I I mean, we spent I've been I've been running Playgroup for for years now, and it was the biggest day of our week. So the two hour session, I'd be home at three or four in the afternoon because there were plenty of parents who were just we just rolled with it, and it was just everyone was having such a great time. The day was beautiful, even on those rainy, miserable days. Like we some of those days were the most amazing, fun, adventure-filled days. So yeah, they they definitely got us out there. And same for me, like I committed to Playgroup, I was there every single week, every Tuesday since the German Shankos. I have been going to Playgroup, and that's because I made that commitment to be there for other people. And that has meant that our family has had some of the most amazing experiences. And I can tell you right now that even when we arrange to meet up with other people outside of Playgroup and Kindy and all the other things that we run, it is so easy to pull out. So easy to say, I'm sick, someone's sick, someone's not feeling right today, we're having a you know, we're having a bad day, didn't sleep enough last night, it's a little bit windy, whatever the reason is, it's it's a so easy to not go. So by by also valuing that for people is that once you make that financial commitment, you will come and you will get the value out of that just by knowing that you have to turn up every week.

Nicki 16:41

Yeah, yeah. On from that, I want to say that Vicky ran playgroup for free for how many years?

Vicci 16:49

Oh, probably about three years.

Nicki 16:51

Yes, for about three years, and that was just it was a labour of love. So it took another year to for us to become Wildlings Forest School and to make that a paid offering. And it didn't pay you, it didn't pay you enough for your time for two years, I think.

Vicci 17:10

Oh yeah, probably all the way up until I stop.

Nicki 17:14

I was just about to say, it hasn't actually really been until this year that we've made any sort of profit on Nature Playgroup. It has always been a labour of love for us, and it has always been community building.

Vicci 17:25

I mean, it's that's that's always been the aim of it.

Nicki 17:27

It's never been Yeah, it's been it's an essential service for us. It's a at some point we have to value women's labor. And part of the reason we have kept Playgroup on is that we want to provide employment opportunities for stay-at-home mums in a child-friendly work environment where they can bring their children and their children can cry and need attending to without any guilt on their part.

Vicci 17:51

That's exactly right. It is, and and it's not until you sort of slap we slapped ourselves in the face with this and went, you know what, we really do need to value women's labour, particularly when they go into these caregiving roles. Um, it's been said over and over again that the work of stay-at-home women and those that's and men that stay home with their children, it's more than a full-time job. It is an ongoing, relentless job that nobody gets any monetary value. And it's just not acknowledged as a financial contribution to our society.

Nicki 18:24

Yeah, which is ridiculous because coordinating a nature play group, it might sound easy, but the admin behind it is ongoing and continuous because people don't just join up at the start of the term, and a lot of people will inquire but not attend, or they'll want to come one week but they're sick, which is it's parenthood.

Vicci 18:42

There's we're not holding any grudges against that, which is that's part and parcel of how you how we run these programs. Yeah, administration is part of that, and also because of the way that we ran it for a very long time, there was a lot of correspondence about where we were meeting, uh, and then there's also all of the the gear that we have to take with us as a most nervous that's not even part of the actual activities that we might provide. So there were there was a lot of things that I had to take every single week just in order to set a mat up on the ground. Um so all of that we want to value the time that women put into that because it is women who run these programs for us.

Nicki 19:20

So again, there's just this assumption that some woman somewhere will do it. So yeah, so I guess just to summarize, we're very, very passionate. If you haven't can't tell about paying women for their work.

Vicci 19:33

Yeah, and also having an opportunity to be able to work with your children alongside you, that's really been a really special part for me. It's my children have been able to watch me be of service to the people around us and to commit and to show them what it what it takes to show up for our community, uh, which you know, and they they have had to sacrifice a lot as well because of the role I had to take. So my children had to sacrifice a lot of attention from me because I have had to spread my attention amongst other families and their needs as well. And that that was something that my children have done of overall fairly well, um, particularly because that my my children can be very loud when they are expressing their needs. Um and that's difficult to parent as well in front of everyone when you're the like leader of a community and your children are pushing those boundaries, and you're having to parent in this spotlight as well. So that that's that's also difficult as a coordinator as well.

Nicki 20:31

Absolutely, yeah, really difficult.

Vicci 20:34

So then the next point, which is something that we have learned over the time, is that nature play groups are not meant to be adult-centered. And what I mean by that is that when we're not providing activities for the parents or the outcomes that the parents are thinking we're providing. We're we're providing activities that serve a purpose for children and developmentally appropriate for children.

Nicki 21:04

Which for zero to three have to be really simple.

Vicci 21:08

Super, super simple. Because what I found is that I have I have done a range of activities and continue to do so sometimes as well, where the activity is far too complex for children to achieve on their own. And there is a flow-on effect and there is a message being sent to children when we take an opportunity for them to do something themselves, and as parents, we do it for them, it's disempowering. And it's teaching children that they are not good enough and that they are not capable, and that is the exact opposite of what we're trying to achieve with our programs.

Nicki 21:45

We want these tasks to be small, achievable tasks that they achieve success from. And if they're not developmentally appropriate and they don't have the dexterity to manage the tools that are required or the skills required, then that leaves them disengaged with the Activity, which then can lead to you know behavior issues and big feelings.

Vicci 22:06

That's right. And a lot of the time, and don't get me wrong, I actually do love stepping into a craft activity and finishing something off. Um don't be whole. And a hundred percent if parents love playing with the we and I always say this if you want to play with the flowers that we've brought down to make something, or if you want to create your own necklace or whatever we're doing out of leaves, absolutely go for your life. But we're really trying to de-emphasize the finished product is is what we're trying to, you know, the finished product is not what we're there for. So if you want to be able to take home home this beautiful art and craft activity that your child has made, but they didn't actually make it, you did. That's sending that real a really wrong message to our children. And that's not what we're about anymore.

Nicki 22:51

No, we are about process over product. So the skills required in learning to pick up a pair of scissors and cut a piece of string are far more valued than the necklace that was tied by the parent and cut by the parent and threaded by the parent.

Vicci 23:08

Leaves gone and picked by the parent, and which is, you know, we're all guilty of that. And it's taken us a long time and a lot of reflection and a lot of observation for us to get to the point where we've really had to scale back what we're talking about.

Nicki 23:21

Well, and the people pleaser in us, yeah, I think, because we do want to provide, and we, you know, when it comes down to it, our stakeholders, our customers, our parents, but really we're children's rights advocates. So our programs are for children, but we still have to ensure that the parents understand the why behind our processes.

Vicci 23:39

Yeah. And I guess too, this is something we've grappled with is that we then provide very simple and just one activity for children because what we're trying to encourage is to play in nature, to come up with their own games, to find ways of using the space with other children alongside to create you to use their imagination or to be creative. And when we provide too much, number one, it's a waste of our time.

Nicki 24:10

They're not interested.

Vicci 24:11

They're not interested. So I often say if the setup and the packup of a craft activity outweighs the time or the value or the learning of the activity, then it's not worth it.

Nicki 24:20

No, it's not.

Vicci 24:21

And I can I can hear parents all over the place going, Oh my goodness, you know, like I saw this beautiful thing of Pinterest, spent two hours gathering the resources, and then I sat down with them and they they played with it for five minutes, and then all of a sudden, instead of painting the thing they were meant to paint, the painting all over themselves and the and the table, and it just got out of hand, and then you end up spending three hours cleaning it up, was it worth it? Did your child actually use that experience to learn what you thought they were going to learn? And again, this is all upon a lot of reflection. Every time that we've done an activity, and I've thought to myself, geez, that took me, you know, an hour of going to source the materials, and then I had to go and pack this and find that and get this extra thing, put it all together, and then actually when you get to play a group and you put it on the mat and the kids are just all over the place, and then you know, wanting to use the glue and they're starting to squeeze it out like it's water, and and it is just because they're not developmentally ready for that, those activities are not appropriate for the age group that we're targeting.

Nicki 25:21

And you know, again still a cause and effect. What happens when I squeeze glue? Like that's where we're at developmentally.

Vicci 25:28

Exactly. And so there's other ways in which we can meet that need without expensive products and the and the outcome, this beautiful craft outcome. So it is trying not to provide too much because it's not actually worth it. And we're really looking at providing more opportunities to develop their essential skills that are often sometimes soft skills, but those social and emotional skills purposely don't supply a resource for every child.

Nicki 25:58

Because children, not that we believe that children need to share, but we do a whole nother topic of conversation. That's a whole other podcast on that one. But we do believe that this is a great opportunity to teach children about uh consent and about um bodily autonomy, about patience and waiting your turn and things like that. Not about not in particular about sharing. Again, I want to reiterate that.

Vicci 26:21

Yeah, sharing is a definitely a whole other ball game.

Nicki 26:24

Um, but those essential social skills, this is how we develop them as well learning.

Vicci 26:32

So it's not necessarily that's the outcome, it's that they're given an opportunity to work with other people and to see how we negotiate social interactions over time because they're not going to learn it in a day or even after a year of being a playgroup, but they are watching those social interactions amongst adults and children and other children together, older children, and that's the important part, not the craft activity.

Nicki 26:59

Absolutely. So to summarize, our nature playgroups focus on building essential social, emotional, and physical skills through free play in nature.

Vicci 27:08

Yeah, we're really looking at following a loose rhythm because children learn best when they're able to choose and follow their own interests, not the adult-centered interests.

Nicki 27:18

Yeah. We make sure that we provide very simple nature crafts because crafts need to be developmentally appropriate and require minimal help from parents because children want to be able to do and make their own things independently to achieve success.

Vicci 27:32

Yeah, we're really focusing again on the process over the product.

Nicki 27:36

And ultimately, we just believe that free playing in nature is how children learn best.

Vicci 27:41

And we want to make sure that people have that community to do that with.

Nicki 27:44

On that note, before we get slammed with inquiries, yes, we are going to offer a how to start a nature play group course, and that will be up right before the end of term four, so right before Christmas, so that you have time over the Christmas holidays to get yourself ready to start playgroup in the new year.

Vicci 28:01

And which would be amazing. We'd love to see more people taking the steps to creating that community. Next week we'll be chatting to Kaya Lyons from Active OT in Sydney about the physical benefits of Nature Play programs. Now we met Kaya at the ABAC conference last year on the Gold Coast and we connected and so excited to learn more about how she's doing her occupational therapy just a little bit differently. So really looking forward to that interview. So until then, if you'd like a little inspiration to get your family outside, you can head to wildlingsforestschool.com forward slash free dash downloadables to get our free nature scavenger hunt printable. And we would love for you to share your adventures with the scavenger hunt on our socials. So please tag us on Instagram. So until next week, stay wild. Stay wild.