SPEAKER_02

Battle sounds fill the forests. Swords clatter and arrows whiz through the air. Groans and victorious shouts ring out. Huzzah! No, it's not a medieval war you're witnessing, but children playing with weapons. In today's episode, we talk about this controversial type of rough and tumble play. Welcome to Raising Wildlings, a podcast about parenting, alternative education, and stepping into the wilderness, however that looks, with your family.

Nicki

Each week we'll be interviewing experts that truly inspire us to answer your parenting and education questions. We'll also be sharing stories from some incredible families that took the leap and are taking the road less travelled.

SPEAKER_02

We're your hosts, Vicky and Nicki from Wildlings Forest School. Pop in your headphones, settle in, and join us on this next adventure.

Nicki

Before we start, we'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Kabi Kabi and Gabby Gubby people. We honour their song lines and storylines and pay our respects to elders past, present, and emerging. We'd also like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which you are listening to this episode.

SPEAKER_02

Hello and welcome to the Raising Wild Things Podcast. We're your hosts, Vicky Oliver.

Nicki

And Nikki Farrell.

SPEAKER_02

As the year comes to a close, we're starting to get a lot more inquiries about homeschooling and what that could look like for your family. So if homeschooling is something that you've been thinking about for 2022, we just wanted to let you know that we have a really comprehensive introductory course to homeschooling, which includes a step-by-state breakdown of the requirements for registering your child. This course is for those of you who are thinking about homeschooling but are yet to take the leap. Maybe you're worried about doing all of the paperwork legally. Maybe you're feeling a bit anxious about dealing with your current school or the additional needs that your children have. Maybe your partner isn't too keen on homeschooling just yet. Maybe you're a little bit worried about your friends and family who are going to be quizzing you about your child falling behind. All of these questions we have addressed because we just have been getting so many emails. I've been having so many conversations with people who are seriously considering homeschooling next year. So we've got our webinar up on the website. If you head to wildlingsforestschool.com forward slash homeschooling dash webinars, we have the introduction to homeschooling webinar there, as well as our additional ones on unschooling and wild schooling, which is the type of homeschooling philosophies that Nikki and I personally follow with our own children.

Nicki

So let's talk weapons play. And it's actually quite a controversial topic, isn't it, Vic?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, before I had kids, I thought I was going to have a really zero tolerance approach to weapons play. I really would be quite disturbed when my nephews would have guns in my face and pretend to shoot me. I would just think to myself, this is just it feels wrong. And I know that a lot of parents have a very similar feeling when they're specifically in the firing line of weapons play, but also just watching their children playing with weapons as well.

Nicki

Yeah, I grew up as a child in a family that was not allowed to have guns or fake guns, toy guns, plastic guns, because I grew up on a farm and we had real guns on the house. And my mum's reasoning behind that, and dad's as well, sorry, it was a joint decision, was that it was about gun safety and they didn't want to learn us to learn to point guns at people in case we picked up a real one and couldn't discern the difference when we were we were young. So when I when my elders was at a playground and picked up from a random child, you know, pointing a gun at someone and then pointed it at me, I was horrified and a little bit devastated. But I've come full circle.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I guess the more you know about these sorts of things, the the the the way your perspective changes is really fascinating to look back on. And I know that we do, we have a really powerful and emotional reaction to weapons play and particularly gun play. And a lot of the time it is seen a lot in boys, but girls equally can participate in this sort of play.

Nicki

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

Um, because of the culture we live in, right?

Nicki

I mean, exactly Especially here in Australia, comparatively say to America, yeah, where we have a very anti-gun country. That's right.

SPEAKER_02

And uh yeah, it it evokes that concern about the violence that we perceive to be what they're learning or what we're unconsciously allowing by uh letting them get into gunplay or uh weapons play. All we often happen at Wildlings is that that the kids really get engrossed in weapons play. So it's swords, uh arrows and axes, and it's interesting to watch. It's been a very fascinating process to how we used to deal with it to how we deal with it now. The adults can often look quite uncomfortable, even our staff uh can sometimes be a little bit unsure how to handle it, and it's taken us a little bit of time to be okay with weapons play. Um, so with good boundaries in place, I think that weapons play is a really, really important thing to talk about today. So let's backtrack a little bit and talk about weapons play, what it looks like, what kind of skills children are learning, and why we maybe need to not be so hard line on having a zero-tolerance approach to weapons play.

Nicki

Yeah, so weapons play falls under, if we're talking about the six risky types of play, it falls under rough and tumble play. And rough and tumble is social play that involves physical contact, positive emotions, shared stories, which I love, and really vigorous activities such as jumping, swinging, chasing and play fighting.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, chasing.

Nicki

It is, and it's that good versus evil, or you know, the battle of territory and these negotiation skills and whatnot, which is what I really love to see in it, and boundaries, development of boundaries. But yeah, rough play really helps young children really understand the limits of their strength. It helps them explore their changing positions in space, and I think this is really important because they can't do it in a space that's supervised, they're gonna do it at some point. So, would you rather let your child do these kind of things and have these weapons like sticks and daggers and whatnot? Or I'm talking pretend daggers, or would you rather them discover these boundaries from under your eye out from under your eye? That's exactly right. Uh, rough and tumble helps children find out what other children will and won't let them do. So really important boundaries, and it helps them work out social relationships as they play roles and take turns and sort out those personal boundaries.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So I guess the question then is like, at what point do we step in and tell them not to fight?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Or I guess the bigger question again is does encouraging weapon play send the message that violence is okay? And it's really interesting. That answer might really surprise you. There's a child psychologist, Michael Thompson, who uh Dr. Michael Thompson, and he's said that research shows there's absolutely no link between battle play in children and real life aggression. And the the reason we don't like weapon play is because it can feel and come across as really violent. But we have to remember that violence is actually intentionally aggressive. Someone gets hurt, but we're talking about weapons play, and play is consensual, it's fun, no one gets hurt, or at least it's not intentionally getting hurt, or it's you know, playing with the boundaries of how much we can be rough without being aggressive and really wanting to hurt someone badly.

Nicki

Yeah, if you step back and watch children discuss their rules that they've created around weapons play, they're very strict.

SPEAKER_02

Very strict. They are, yeah, especially especially in children who have been permitted to play in this way before. When weapons play doesn't work well, is with children who've never really engaged in this type of play before, and they're still trying to work out the rules and the boundaries and and how much fun they're actually allowing themselves to have and in how serious they're taking it. So I think that's sometimes the blurry line here is that what we witness at Wildlings is children who are allowed to play in this way and have this space and have this freedom and have conversations around boundaries, body autonomy, consent. Um, that's happened frequently, often guided hand in hand, checking in all of that sort of stuff. But if you leave children to do this on their own and they've never been allowed to do it before, that's when it may not be the type of weapons play that they need they need help and guidance.

Nicki

They do when they're young, and then especially when they don't quite know their peripheral vision and things like that. But yeah, we'll get to that in a minute as well. Yeah. I I think it's really important to acknowledge that that weapons play allows children to experience that full spectrum and range of emotions, including fear, but all the way to heroism. Give them the space to work through those ideas about themselves and where they fit in the world, particularly on that spectrum that we perceive as humans of good versus evil. You know, we as adults, we know there's no one is all good or all evil. You know, we're we're complicated beings and the decisions that we make don't make us bad people. But as children, we're testing that theory all the time, and that's really exciting.

SPEAKER_02

It is exciting. That's why they love superheroes, that's why those sorts of genres are really appealing to children because when you're young, you want to know that good overcomes evil, and that's what this play is exploring in a lot of the time. It's that power and dominance, and they're trying on those various roles and they're negotiating that image imagination and the challenges that come with being the good guy, being the bad guy, you know, good overcoming evil. And it's a really important power dynamic for them to experiment in a safe space.

Nicki

Mm-hmm. We take power away from children as adults every day. You know, here's the blue cup. No, I want the red cup. Well, no, sorry, bad like getting the red, you know, the getting the blue cup. So in this kind of weapons play, they get to be sometimes that in that position of power, but they might also be on the flip side and they might be experiencing those feelings of vulnerability or weakness. So it's such a great way to explore that full spectrum of feelings.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and it gets to they get to really uh experiment and be exposed to really big concepts like justice, yes, and then also practicing empathy because when they take terms playing the bad guy, um they can see the world through someone else's eyes and and be able to, like you said before, you know, we're we're complicated human beings, and when you put your shoe on the other foot, you get to see and develop those skills of empathy, uh, which are so important for children. And you can't explicitly I think sometimes we feel like we have to have explicit lessons in some of these things, but you you can't you can't have a lesson on empathy, you need to experience it and play, and particularly weapons play and rough and tumble play is a really great way to be able to on the ground learn all about empathizing with other people.

Nicki

Yeah, and how does it feel to be a bad guy? Is this what I want? Is this what I want to be in life? Ugh, I don't like it. I'm being outcast, I'm being shunned, I'm being run away from. You you can't teach that without feeling those feelings.

SPEAKER_02

The other thing about rough and tumble play is that it really requires some opposing social skills. So you've got competition on one hand and cooperation on the other. So with competition. So competition, you know, you're having to defend yourself, facing adversity. Territory. Yeah, and dealing with conflict in a pro-social manner. So uh it's a healthy like we know a healthy sense of competition will help children with self-esteem. And but more importantly, uh it helps them to know that they can stand up for themselves. So I think that I'm not a huge fan of competition on podcast for another day.

Nicki

Yes, let's thank that one because that is a really important one.

SPEAKER_02

But but I think healthy competition, it definitely does. It it's it allows people to actually stand up for themselves. But on the on the flip side, the second skill, which is sort of the opposite on spectrum, is the cooperation. So that's where you're having to listen to others, see things from other points of view, taking turns and sharing as well. But I think what you find is that if you've got someone who's always competitive, they can become socially isolated.

Nicki

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Because they can't work with others well, because they're so competitive. And someone who's really cooperative may not actually learn to defend themselves or assert themselves and what they need. So rough and tumble play brings these oppos this opportunity to balance a bit of competition and a bit of cooperation together. And that's what we want. We want to be able to tap into these two opposite spectrums and and find in the middle where we can assert ourselves, but we can also work with other people. We're not going to isolate ourselves. We can work in groups, but we also stand up for ourselves when we need to. And that's really vital.

Nicki

Absolutely. I think there's that's that wide spectrum of experiences that we need to see it as more than he pointed a gun at me or he, you know, he pretended to kill me with a sword and I feel really violated.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

Nicki

We need to also think about how risky play directly benefits childhood development and in particular emotional regulation. When I was teaching in school, one of the things that was commonly brought up by the older teachers was that children were having more trouble regulating themselves and their environment and particularly their emotions. You know, they're having trouble controlling their impulses, delaying gratification. Rough and tumble, and particularly risky play helps children think more symbolically and view things from another's perspective.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

Nicki

That's how we help regulate, that's how we build empathy, that's how we delay gratification as well. I think that's so important to not raise entitled narcissistic children.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And I and I think that in particular, well, risky play in general does this, but um, it gives children the space to experience like a manageable dose of fear. So that's important because we need to help them know that they can overcome that feeling. Like we can't shelter our children from feeling fear. It's important that they learn to control their fear and anger so that they can encounter real-life dangers and interact in really close quarters with others without really succumbing to huge negative emotions.

Nicki

Well, just think about our culture of king hitting here in Australia. I'm not sure if that's a worldwide term, but the one punch kills. You're in a bar, you get into a bar fight, you know, guys generally go for a big punch to the head and not think about the consequences. You know, if we let allow this rough and tumble play where they can manage their emotions that close up real life danger in close quarters, perhaps when they get to 18 under the influence, they may make better decisions or be able to regulate their emotions better in those situations.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. And that's that long-term thinking. You know, we have to be thinking about all of these concepts and these things that children need to experience from a young age so that we can guide them through these really important phases of our lives where really big, scary decisions can be made in an instant if we don't have the emotional capacity to deal with heavy feelings and losing control.

Nicki

Yeah. Yeah. I think another quick side note, so my brain's going a bit sideways, is handling those dangerous tools. You know, even for a two-year-old, a stick is a dangerous tool. But if you've got a pretend sword, like some of the stuff that we sell in the shop, yeah, it's hugely rewarding for children to learn how to handle a tool for its own purpose, whether that's a hand drill or a pocket knife, or you know, the stick that's a pretend dagger, because it adds that thrill of knowing that it could also hurt them, but they're responsible enough to handle that, big enough, you know, and smart enough to handle those those weapons slash tools as well. And it's they just want to do what we're doing and they want to be, they want to be seen as responsible, important members of their community. And this is just one of the ways we can help them do that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it yeah, it is really important. It can be really triggering to stand back and watch it unfold so many times. How many times? And in particular, I guess um, one of the hard so when they're really getting into intense weapon play, but even just in Rough and Tumble, and I may have mentioned this before, but I've watched your son and a couple of the other girls really engage in some real like intense, rough wrestling, and like and and every time someone has interrupted them, they've looked up at us like, Are you kidding me?

Nicki

We're having fun, we're having a great time.

SPEAKER_02

No one's getting hurt. Yeah. So um, look, there this because children are motivated to play in risky ways, um, and they're very good at knowing their own capacity, like believe it or not, children do know their own capacity. Uh avoiding risks it it actually decreases their capacity to know their own strength and to know the limits um and to know themselves physically and emotionally. So I guess what we're trying to encourage people who work with children or who are parents is that maybe you could try embracing the play.

Nicki

Yes, just embrace the play.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so you'll spend so much time and energy trying to police it, and in all likelihood, it's it's gonna be futile.

Nicki

Well, it's like the whole restricting sugar completely, isn't it? It becomes a wanted, desired thing.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And they'll just do it in their own ways when you're not watching and um, it's gonna backfire. So uh, you know, if we can embrace it. And so I guess the next step is um, how do we help parents and and caregivers to embrace that?

Nicki

So I think we need to I can give some tips.

SPEAKER_02

I think we need to see this as an opportunity to help children about limits on what can be seen as aggression, making sure they understand that no one should feel hurt or uncomfortable and help them understand the signs that um that everyone that's playing is having fun.

Nicki

So Yes, that's it right there.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so we need to verbalize some of those signs and explain what to look out for.

Nicki

Yeah. So one of the things that we, our boys are rough and tumbled with myself and with um Scotty, my husband, since you know, since as long as they were interested. And the one of the first things we ask them is watch their body language. Are you checking the in and checking their body language? Because sometimes when we're so involved, we forget to say stop before we get hurt. So check are they smiling and laughing, or are they frowning, staring, crying, or getting red in the face? My boy's biggest, biggest um sing signal, that's what I'm trying to say, biggest signal is they grit their teeth. So once their teeth are gripped, Scotty and I look at each other and be like, yeah, is everybody having fun? Yep. And if there's a no, right, okay, let's go take a breather. Let's split apart and have a breather.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. Um, one of the things if you're watching this um from afar is that are all of the children playing a willing and equal participants, or does it look like that one child is dominating all of the time? Um, and if that's the case, then you may want to step in or just check in to see that everyone's still enjoying themselves. Because if children, if it's not equal, if there's not equality in it in the play, um, that's when things are gonna escalate.

Nicki

Yeah, which brings us to the next one, keeping an eye out as the adult, but also teaching the children to keep an eye out. Like, do you after you've had this rough and tumble play or this war play, the weapons play, are you coming together afterwards because everything is still amicable, or are you separating because you're cross or you feel frustrated or an injustice feels like it's occurred?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

Nicki

If you're separating, then maybe it's time to check in and and and have get that feedback. What happened? How are you feeling? Um, did you not like when this happened, or what was it that you didn't like? It's really important to not, you know, to follow up and to check in on people.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Um, another thing to look for is this if there's stro a stronger or an older child, are they letting the younger or less skilled children win? Is there any self-handicapping happening? And if there's not, then that's when things also can go south.

Nicki

So I can just picture we've got um little Miss Indie, who loves, who's what half of my boys' oh, yeah, she loves. She's four years younger than my elders, and she beats them up good and proper to the point that I'm checking in on my boys to make sure that they're okay. And they're like, Yeah, mom, she's cute, she's great, it's we're having a great time. But they definitely absolutely self-handicap.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, and that's the way they keep the play going.

Nicki

Yeah, because they enjoy it. They enjoy seeing her turn into a wrestling, wrestling queen.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And then also, like, you want to know, are the children like alternating roles? Um, or are the roles always staying the same? So that's something to just be aware of as well when you're watching the play.

Nicki

Yeah, and again, are there lots of children participating and they're all enjoying it, or is it only one or two? And and when the one or two are at it, is it does it feel like it's a power dynamic, or does it feel like it's fun? Because adults, if you listen to your intuition, you've had children, you know, you know when things are about to flip. We call it to each other all the time, you know. Here we go, I give it two minutes. Yeah, that's when we step in and we have the chat. You know, are you having fun? Is everybody okay? Good, okay, off we go. I can see you gritting your teeth now. You do you think you'd need a breather? Would you like a drink? No, good, okay. Just checking in.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's right. That's right. And then also, um, one thing to look out for is are there spectators?

Nicki

So the high school teachers. This is a big one.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so if people are coming in to watch but not participate, that's maybe a bit more serious. So um if if if more people are wanting to get in on it, then that that's play and it's a game. If there's people watching from the sidelines, there's a red flag there. So just some things to look out for.

Nicki

Yeah. So it just remembering that children know, most children know that rough and tumble play is not real fighting, and therefore they will act appropriately in order to sustain the play. So you'll hear them regulate themselves too. Like, hey, hey, we're just playing, you know, or can you not hit so you know, or your sticks too big? We get that down the forest because one of our rules is, you know, if we're doing weapons play, that sticks can't be any longer than your arm. Your sticks too big. So there's a real sense of justice and fairness and safety amongst the group.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

Nicki

Um they really police each other well.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And then, you know, um, you can have rules and and boundaries on how how they're playing with your weapons.

Nicki

So stick, I mean, we like it, we're just gonna still not like it, and you can put individual boundaries up for sure.

SPEAKER_02

Um, so you know, you might say to them, I'm I'm okay with this, but your sticks can't connect. Yeah. So that might be a way for you to to minimize what you your perceived risk in this situation. Um, and that can change.

Nicki

Low stick play above your hips.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And definitely, you know, being careful of people's eyes and heads. So it has to be low play. So that, you know, like you can put those boundaries in place. You can also put in some personal boundaries because I know uh you might be okay with them with weapons play, but if it's aimed at you, um, you can say, well then, yeah, I don't like having the gun held held to my face. Or um, we were at a PD uh in Townsville and one of the educators said, holster your gun. I was like, that's a great one.

Nicki

Because it's not don't. It's not don't. And it's not making them feel shameful. Because sometimes we say I don't like, or when you do that, it makes me feel as that level of shame and guilt about them being responsible for your feelings. Yes. Which while there's empathy, there's also I think holster your gun is is a great way of acknowledging here's my boundary without bringing the shame into it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, um, and what whatever the equivalent is for a sword, you know. And then um you could also um flip it as well and be like every time they go to shoot you, you run after them and give them a kiss and a cuddle. And after a while they'll learn that if they're gonna do, if they're gonna point the gun in your face, you're going to respond in a really playful and peaceful way. And that might curb them doing it directly to you. If that's true, if that particular action is what triggers you the most and you don't want them to point them at you, then you can put that boundary in place or make it playful so that it becomes less less inclined to point it at your face and make you feel okay.

Nicki

Okay, because you know, and it has happened down there too, whereas you know, if I pretend to die once, that's it, I'm dying the whole day. So that's my my boundary now is I don't do it down here, you know, either holster your gun or I don't like it in my face, whatever it is. Um, but at home with my own children, rather than having 30 children chasing me with guns, I do. I get a bit like, oh gosh, this is a bit overstimulating, a bit a bit sensitive to it. So yeah, I think that's great. Another thing that we do, and I know a lot of people do, but um, particularly in rough and tumble and wrestling, is we're all about consent, but we also know that sometimes when we're really caught up in the act of wrestling or really caught up in role play, that we might use words in the wrong context. So stop might sound like stop hey, stop it while I'm running and being chased. So then we introduce the safe word, which might be bananas or thunder or whatever it is, so that they know that the game needs to stop immediately. It's I'm feeling unsafe and you're not listening to my stop. And I think that that works really well in our house and down in the forest.

SPEAKER_02

Yep. Uh and then when you're watching Rough and Tumble play, just at intervals, are you still having fun? Are you guys still having fun? Are you still playing? You can just throw that in there. And then it's not gonna break them out of their play too much. They can give you the one-a-word answer and you can keep going. Um, if you feel like it's getting a little bit too rough, you can go over to them and say, guys, I feel I'm feeling this is just got a little bit too much. Can we scale it down a bit? I'm absolutely okay with the play, but I just feel like when you start doing XYZ, um, that's making me feel like it's a little bit unsafe.

Nicki

Yeah, and I think exactly that. If you're pointing out the triggers that are making you feel that, is it they're is it they're gritting their teeth or their face has gone red or the sticks are hitting harder, or you know, point out to them so that they can learn those triggers as well.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, exactly.

Nicki

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And any children who you think are taking the game too seriously, you can pull them aside for a second and just see if you can talk them through their thought process because we've had times before where it has gotten a little bit out of hand and one or two children are taking it a little bit too seriously.

Nicki

It's so rare though, for her.

SPEAKER_02

It's more that they've told themselves a story about what the other children are thinking, um and they've escalated and so they're responding to this little story in their head about something that's happened, and um, we can we can talk them down, or we can check, and we'd be like, Well, if that's how you feel, do you mind we'll go and ask them and make sure that that's not what they're thinking or doing so that we can bring the play play back to play and not the serious issue that they they may have concocted, and children do sometimes they make up little stories in their head from an action or a word that's said.

Nicki

Yeah, yeah. Now, when enemies are storming your wildlings castle, we have got everything you need to armor up. So no weapons kit is complete without a whittling knife. So, with my first Opinel, you can craft all kinds of primitive weapons using resources from the world around you, such as green wooden sticks. Just to know if you're purchasing them from our shop, there is a worldwide Opinel shortage at the moment. Whatever we've got in our shop is all we've got left, and we won't be able to get any more in for Christmas. I want to add there though, we're not about FOMO, we're not about scarcity marketing either. So don't just go and buy one. But if you were looking to get one before Christmas, please hop on soon because we aren't able to restock. Now, if you prefer to slay dragons, no worries, we've got a Lancelot sword that will transport you to Camelot and the Knights of the Round Table. You can command your armies like King Arthur wielding the Excalibur.

SPEAKER_02

And for the princess who can save herself, she can protect the city with her purple unicorn dagger, which is a really cute addition that we've got at the shop. Or the prince. Yeah, or the prince, absolutely. So um, anyone that, yeah, just would like to take on a new adventure. We can also strike from a distance with our bow and arrow set. So if they're not using their openel to craft their own bow and arrow, um we've got this little kit complete with suction cups for protecting their precious treasures, and they can store their arrows in our adjustable quiver so they can stay in stealth mode and surprise their enemies.

Nicki

Whatever they gain, the Wildlings online store is your gateway to endless fun. And don't forget, weapons play is a healthy, creative part of childhood and childhood development. And who knows, maybe you can even join in the battle next time. Until next time, on guard and stay wild.