Welcome to the Tribe of Hackers Podcast. In this premier episode, ToH Podcast host Ray [REDACTED] interviews Marcus J Carey, the author of the Tribe of Hackers series of books.
It's been attentional Day one that everything that I'm a part of is trying to making it inclusive as possible and in all the books would That's definitely been a goal to make sure that we have multiple forces. Multiple
viewpoints. Welcome to the tribe of hackers podcast Heiner, host Ray Redacted and this is Season one. Episode one The Tribe of Hackers refers to a series of books compiled and authored by Marcus J. Carey and Jennifer Jen and available as both Ah Hard Copy and in Elektronik additions. Each book features dozens of interviews from industry professionals about the information security industry and a wide variety of other topics. Tribe of Hackers refers to the books, yes, but it also refers to a movement the movement of information security professionals to end gate keeping, to increase diversity and inclusion in our industry, and to reclaim the positive connotation that should ever be associated with the term hacker. Each week on the Tribal Hackers podcast, we're going to feature one member of the tribe. You do not need to own the books to enjoy this podcast, but the experience will certainly be enhanced if you do have either The digital or hard copy virgins of tribal hackers this season on the tribe of actress podcast. We're hoping and looking forward to featuring guests such as Lesley Carhart, Jason Street, Cheryl Biswas, Wire Fall Tracy May leave Dave Kennedy, Jackie Sing, Dan Tendler, a k this Whitney champion malware Jake Williams in Cold Water and many, many more. One of the unique things about the tribe Attackers podcast. That is, that instead of having traditional sponsors, so to speak, the tribe backers podcast Is it going to instead do reverse sponsorships, where each week we will use the platform to publicize a non profit organization, a hacker project involving community services or in upcoming nonprofit conference that highlights what we could call hackers giving back these so called reverse sponsorships do not imply that that nonprofit endorses the T o Drive actress podcasts, but it does apply. The Tribal Hackers podcast endorses the nonprofit cause This week in our premiere episode. Our first reverse sponsorship is a organization known as Masks for Docks, which is M. A s k s fo r D o. C s Mass. Redox is a grassroots movement with one goal to get PPE or personal protective equipment into the hands of health care workers as quickly as possible for free masks. Paradoxes, a volunteer organization comprised of volunteers from the tech business and nonprofit community, is banding together all around the world to turn fear into hope. And you can follow masks for Doc's on Twitter or Facebook by looking for masks, four docks or by going to masks for Doc's, dot org's and following the links there. And speaking of following, you can follow the Tribe of Hackers podcast on Twitter by going to T. O H podcast. That's at T. O H podcast or T. O. H podcast dot com. Our first guest on the tribe of hackers is none other than the author Marcus J. Kerry himself. Market Securities has 20 years of cyber security experience. He's worked in the penetration testing incident response and digital forensics with federal agencies, including the National Security Agency, D. C. Three D, I A and D ARPA. He is currently doing free certifications for those new to the industry on Twitch twice a week. Marcus is a constant advocate of gate smashing rather than gate keeping, and will hopefully be a regular guest on this podcast. How are you, Marcus?
Am I'm super pumped. Thanks for having me.
Well, it's good. Teoh, have you here thinks that it feels like it is the You are the appropriate first ever guessed for the folks that are listening out there that may not be familiar with the tribal hackers or with you. Can you give us a little bit of background on how we got here?
Yes. So the from of hackers is to me. I would I would describe it as a community. Uh, then, uh, that Jin Jin and I think a lot of the books and we've been asking a bunch of questions. And so far, this ended up being three books published by Wiley Tech. And so we just released the third book, Travel of Hackers, Security Leaders, and, Ah, and it's just the community. People in the community have just have been so awesome to give us their time and talk about problems. They're facing solutions that they have this 1/3 book. There's one more to go coming up in the future. But we just dropped security just this week.
So markets for those of us that all of you on Twitter. We know you're kind of an idea guy. You're kind of a guy who is always coming up with ideas, and some of them are fantastic. And maybe we don't ever hear about the ones that are. When did you come up with the idea of the series of books for travel hackers?
Just about two years ago? Now, Um, and I'm a huge fan of Ah, Tim Ferriss. Temporaries writes a lot of really good books for entrepreneurs. What yourself type stuff like, I guess what you got self self help books and life hack books or whatever. And so people know really well for the four hour work week. Sure, a couple of the Bush called Markle Tool Titans. So the book that he released recently that I was drawn to was Travel of Mistress. Okay, now Tim First has all kind of access to all kind of different stars and celebrities here, and he's super popular in Silicon Valley and in the Hollywood circles, you know, is a big time influencer. And so I thought to myself, I was like, Well, you know how we have hallway con during car offices where we just talk about stuff? Sure, we had a We had a virtual hallway kind of the day. Uh, what? You So, uh, don't Sometimes those are the best conversations, your body clean information. And so I was like, Man it. What if we did a tribe of mentors for the hacker slash info SEC community and so troubled hackers eyes what I came up with? We did two initial book. It's Orange Book. Uh, and I called it the blueprint that set up the blueprint for to do more books. And I'm really happy that Ah, you know, Wiley is putting out the books now.
And, you know, markets has become a smash hit for people that are interested in getting a career kind of starting out an in process, right, because there's so much information there for people that maybe aren't don't really know how to approach it or it was not intentional is I've just been in extras Bonus.
1%. Like you know, when I first came in info sick, there were people that had, like, names are, you know, like thes this person's kind of famous in our industry. Well, I mean, a lot of times there's two things that some. Sometimes those people just aren't approachable on. The second thing is, sometimes there's so many people trying to get that person's attention that they don't have. They can, you know, see all the people that want to talk to them. And so the whole the whole point and the whole mood Waas take All right, you're just new in the game. You want to hear what this person has to say about these topics for, you know, people that know a lot about the topics insure their knowledge, and that's what people want to do. That's what we'd go to conferences. That's why you know, some of these people get mobbed after they give talks. Eso I wanted to give the people that I know and the people that want to help out the community adjusted help up and ensure their knowledge. And that's all of this. Did
you anticipate getting the kind of response that you've gotten so far from these books with regards to When you reach out to people like the Dave Kennedy's and Jason streets of the world that you get in you, they actually do respond to you and give you the answers
you know what's insane? Like, uh, those guys, they didn't have big names, offers metal. So, you know, nobody knew me already knew. Knew Dave Kennedy. Nobody knew Jason Street Waas. I mean, nobody knew many of the people were. And so in some of the people, everybody in the book is not like some kind of rock star, something that some of the people nobody ever heard off. But they were always good people. I'm like, lucky is our doors because some of the people I know that have been putting their work in the community and helping other people. I didn't have any follow ups. And now they've blown up. And not not because of a book, because they're just awesome people. So I was like, Oh, now you look at the book. You like Ben. All these people read it, some of whom didn't have names at the time. Hey,
And what about the response that you've gotten from the readers? Were you anticipating that yours was gonna be a smashing as well Or have you been surprised by that?
I was surprised that it was It was so successful. The other thing that absolutely blew my mind that I just didn't anticipate. It seemed like the right people were part of the books, their projects, because those people are all out doing charitable stuff, leading stuff, teaching stuff, all these different things. And so it's like a movement. And if my, you know, I just happen to be ah far of it and the people that are part of the whole tribe a hackers, they help other people out and mean. It's the people that read the book, want help People out is the people that were in the book want help people out? So we have this whole snowball effect of everybody just helping everybody out. It's just blows. My mind is the unintended side effect I met you do this thing. I met so many awesome people as a part of this thing, and everybody's trying help everybody up and that's what the That's the thing that blows my mind. We'll
tell you there were some extra benefits that probably maybe maybe you intended, but certainly came about happening. You know, one of them is that the stigmatization of the term hacker really embraces and grabs at term. You know, it was a lot of people have been trying to get that to be popularly embrace as well. But I mean even myself, when someone says, How can you go with the term hacker? I start pointing to that book and say, This is exactly why right, right, This will tell you that It also makes it easier for eating for new people to come into the industry lowered a lot of barriers around some things around race and ethnicity and LGBT Q and everything else like that. I think it's people. You've accomplished quite a few goals. Besides, you know, just the fact of selling books
one under sentiment. It's been intentional Day one that everything that I'm a part of is trying to make it inclusive as possible And are the books were? That's definitely been a goal to make sure that we have multiple forces, multiple viewpoints because I read a lot of books. I mean, I've read going on close to 300 books. I do a lot of audio books, so, you know, sitting myself a lifelong owner, I can tell the difference between a book written by man. I mean, written by a woman is typically the women women's books and more empathetic and all that stuff, and you can tell what a man writes a book. It's a more masculine viewpoint. And so we need both of those, right when you need a getting in the game from A from a masculinity and femininity perspective, that's okay, senators to suit it. Sometimes in our world, it's not okay to have both viewpoints, but I value all the inputs, inputs and viewpoints that I get
the market. You're actually a relatively technical person. You code, and you've got some intellectual property and patents. Did you ever think when you were working with the military and essay that you were gonna be a book author
moment? Um, I just always wanted to No, I When I was growing up, I looked up the intellectuals and people that wrote books invented things, and I wanted to be an adventure, since I could remember. I remember when I was, like, eight years old, trying Vince stuff. I remember drawing out stuff. My event since seven. I've been in a inventor in my head since I was a young kid. Okay, so, uh, all these things that are happening now it's all in the in the right time. You know, I always wanted to do it always was pushing towards this getting Patton's Regine books all this different stuff. So I'm I'm just tremendously blessed. And I'm definitely example, was the foreskin I knew growing up from the bottom of the bottom of the bottom. And ah, some people look, look at me, you dancing. I'm successful. So inspiration
its engine. And I think you definitely have to accomplish that. But I also do you know that you probably think that that's more of a journey than in an actual accomplishment. Those. So I will tell you this. It is interesting that you mention that you came from an economically disadvantaged background because you're biggest kind of that claim to fame for several years was that you constantly air helping people negotiate higher salaries, right? Dizzy idea. Where do you ever run into people that are particularly angry with you? Because you've helped one of their employees get up much of more money?
Well, it's always there behind the scenes, so and yeah, I love doing that is that is like sometimes in life, like when you help somebody out, there is a long term process were. But when I help people negotiate salaries in many cases and raises, it's like instant gratification for them, for sure. For them like hey, okay, cool. Then why do this crazy stuff? The market is telling me to? Dio has just given play this what you say it is, how you position up and then you'll run the play and then they come back with a lot more money. And what, and negotiate everything. Leave all that stuff. So that's why I like to do I like to separate Bluff Assess, bro. I just believe in said people up for success,
that would actually kind of leads the next question. Which is how do people that are in the information security business? How can they derive what they're worth? Like what, what, what kind of advice could you give someone in order to figure out what the job market should be paying
them? I just use a couple of different things, but I recommend that people go under resource is like the last door. So what I recommend people do is they go toe Resource is such a Zaha last, nor, indeed, and try to get. You know, some price ranges in my advice, and this works a lot. Get the top number at 20% onto the top number. Really? OK, 1%. Yet because typically what they're gonna do is they're gonna negotiate a probably around 20% decrease on whatever your number is. So if you tell them that you have arranged everyone to come in probably 20% less than low, low number or if you get in the high res, they're gonna get 20% less. You're gonna end up at the Lawrence. Always take the top number. Tell him that you've done your research and never make it about you. Make it about This is what the industry is paying for these particular skill sets and take you so far, the equation. You
actually sold your company last year for an undisclosed amount of money. Do you think the people that required your company might be listening to this going? Damn, He had a 20% to the top.
I wasn't able to negocio and I'm happy to be women, but I didnt definitely go sheet attend today s Oh, this is book called ah by Chris Boss, a lot of people talk about it. Ah, he used to be former F B on negotiator and it's never split. The difference is the name the book they look out like, really applied of things in life. Don't just go through quoting people. But I know plenty of people to conclude the Bible, but they live in wretched lives. Just go just go through. Just see, like, learn stuff, an implemented into your life. And that's what that's what you gotta do. You just gotta, like, you know, be open to new information and just be a good person and things good things are gonna happen to you. So
markets the world is changing pretty rapidly about the economic climate as well as a lot of things in society and things like that. Do you think that tribal packers will be having a conference
this year? Well, I think we're probably gonna end up having a virtual conference, and I'm looking forward toa organizing that So Ginger and I, uh, genders the court there and and runs runs about a lot of the operation stuff. When it comes to tribal hackers, we said we're gonna wait to the end of this month. Toe figure out what got Ideo But we didn't have an epic event last year. Ah, a lot of people were touched. A lot of people in the form and honestly, you know, leaving an event. It I had some good feels. It was like it was amazing thing, and I think there will be able to duplicate that home on, uh shut out, everybody. They did pancakes, kind. I saw that. That was amazing. I think people really were touched by that. And, uh and hopefully Ah, there's a lot of people that are building and building Get virtual conferences now. And I think that that's gonna increase in in in the future usually divert some stuff was done by corporate people. Not a community is during corporate stuff. I mean, not corporate, but this online stuff because of the circumstances that were not right now. So I love it.
Well, markets in the middle of all of that going on, we're gonna be launching this tribe of hackers podcast. And we would love to have you check in with us periodically. Maybe you could check in with us every 10 or so episodes. If you're happy. and every two or three episodes if you're not happy. But we really do appreciate you both writing and books and establishing it and also being our first ever guessed on the tribe of actors guests
A definitely appreciate everything. You do ray for the community. Uh, you, you know, you help out a litany of, ah, nonprofits, and that's one of the things that we want to do with this part gets a swell. I love the concept that you have behind that because you want to tell people about that.
Oh, absolutely, for sure. So each episode is gonna have a nonprofit or a project that is mentioned as that week that episodes cause. And this very, very 1st 1 is going to be masks for doc's dot com, which is masked Murdoch's on Twitter as well. Ah, non for profit organization that is dedicated to getting personal protective equipment into the hands of medical personnel.
Fantastic, great organization. Hopefully did you can. Hopefully you're if you are able to contribute and support them, amplify their message online. Uh, I really get a print over there. Chad Loader, uh, work, which had a rep. It's seven. He's one to represent founders. Good. He's fighting a good fight, and he's trying to protect other people on the front lines.
Yeah, markets in the next. The next time we get you back on the podcast, we're definitely gonna walk through your You're quite storied career because it is a very good is. It did. It's definitely a good journey, but I'm going to save that one for Episode 20 or so. Way talking to you very soon. Okay. Thank you, Marcus.
Hey, Appreciate you. Thank you. Three
opinions pressed on the tribal Hector's podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the host or the guests Employers Riley and sends publishing or any of the non profit organizations or causes advocated or publicized on the tribe of hackers podcast.