Maaike Doyer - The Future of Female Investing

In this episode, Nicole Denholder sits down with Maaike Doyer, co-founder of Epic Angels, to discuss her inspiring journey from corporate finance to angel investing, the mission behind Epic Angels, and her vision to empower women to take charge of their financial futures.

Transcript

(0:04) Hello, and welcome to another episode of Raise the Bar podcast by Next Chapter Raise. (0:11) We have a simple mission to get female founders money smarter, commercially confident, and (0:18) funding savvy so they can grow their businesses beyond their wildest dreams. (0:23) You can learn more at nextchapterraise.com. (0:27) We welcome female founders, no matter what stage of business you're in, to join our programs, (0:33) take our courses, and use our resources to become commercially confident and grow your business (0:39) faster.

Hi, I'm Nicole Denholder, founder of Next Chapter Raise and the host of Raise the Bar. (0:52) And on today's episode, I'm really excited about speaking with Maaike Doyer from Epic Angels, (0:57) which was founded in Singapore, but has grown very quickly to be the largest female investor (1:05) collective in Asia. So thank you for joining us, Maaike.

Excited to be here. Thank you, Nicole. (1:11) Yeah.

So now I've only mentioned Epic Angels. I know you have done a lot of other great stuff, (1:16) so feel free to bring that up as we go through our conversations today. But I really wanted to (1:22) spend our time together on this call to chat about, you know, the work you do as a female (1:26) investor, your experiences, the growth of Epic Angels, but also just, you know, what do you look (1:32) for through the investing process? 

Because that's what we really focus on at Next Chapter Raise is (1:36) educating and talking and finding practical information around getting women investing, (1:42) but getting women funded as well.

This is my favorite topic. (1:46) 

I know we will not have enough time, so we'll do part one today. (1:54) Let's see what we get through.So let's just kick off about you first. Please tell us a bit about (2:01) yourself and your career background. Anya, where did your passion for investing come from? (2:07) 

Well, I'm a true and true number girl, right? I just happen to love numbers.Even as a small kid, (2:13) math was my favorite topic. Love math too. (2:16) Right.So studied math as well. Went on, started to work for the big four accountancy firms. (2:21) Nicole, you and I even met there, PricewaterhouseCoopers in our (2:25) lives, right? (2:26) 
Yes.Our prior lives. Yeah. In different countries as well.It's a long time ago. (2:31) 

I was in the Netherlands indeed at that time. And the last part of PwC I worked at was M&A.So (2:37) already being part of the deals. Quit that because I realized, you know, you're not changing the (2:41) world by working for those big corporates. Together with another colleague, we started (2:45) this company called Business Models Inc.and reproduced this famous book, Business Model (2:50) Generation with the business model canvas in there that I hope everyone listening knows the (2:54) business model canvas. 

So we published that book and I was the global CFO. You see again, numbers.(3:00) And we were expanding all over the world. That led me to move. My husband quit his job for me.I'm (3:07) still so grateful he did. We together moved to San Francisco. I set up shop there for the company (3:13) and later on in New York as well.So in San Francisco, I was helping corporates how to (3:17) startups, but also I was helping many, many startups, right? 

So I was super active running (3:23) accelerator programs, being in front of them all about the business modeling strategy, (3:27) obviously also about pitch decks and investing. And at a certain point I was like, you know, (3:33) I also want to invest because I think when you're in Silicon Valley, investing is like getting a (3:38) coffee. Everyone around you is doing it.It's not even something special. So that's when I (3:45) caught the virus, so to say, and I just did my very first angel investing when I was in San (3:50) Francisco. 

Fantastic.Fantastic. So that was the first leap off. And you know, I love nuts as well.(3:56) So I know exactly where you're coming from. And I think when you work in this ecosystem, (4:00) there's always so many amazing businesses you meet that you want to be a part of. (4:04) And it is quite hard sometimes to have some restraint around that, I think.(4:09) 

Absolutely. No, for sure. 

Right.

And I mean, maybe then after that, so I was in San Francisco, (4:14) I decided to do my exit because, you know, that's at a certain point you're like, OK, (4:17) time for the next move that had us move to Singapore. And when I arrived in Singapore, (4:22) I knew one thing for sure. Right.I was like, OK, I want to keep on doing investment and I (4:27) specifically want to invest in Asia. I really believe in Asia as a growth region. 

I mean, (4:33) look, in 2030, more than half of GDP will come from the region.So I really believe in the (4:39) region as such. So I wanted to join some of the existing networks at that time. But they were all (4:44) a little bit old school.Right. So I said to three friends, you know what, let's just do this (4:50) together. I know my way around in startup land.We'll find us a startup. Are you in? And these (4:55) three friends were three women. And they said yes.

Six weeks later, we did our very first investment. (5:01) So that was pretty cool how that went. And then, you know what, I really started to realize in my (5:06) household, I'm the one doing all the finance stuff.Always have been. For me, it's super (5:10) normal. But what I saw is that so many women are just not involved in that financial decision (5:16) making. And that bothers me. 

So for me, with the angel investing and Epic Angels, since we (5:22) only have female investors in our collective, that's really my passion. Like get women acquainted (5:28) at least. At least try it out. Test it. Is this something for you? Educate yourself about it and (5:34) grow your own wealth and be in charge of your own finance.

That's a big passion that I have there. (5:40) How do you use angel investing to target female founders? I'd love to know how you've (5:45) really taken your message to market and found those female founders. (5:50) 

So initially when we started, we aren't investing in anyone.Doesn't matter. Male founder, (5:55) female founder. We're investing in anyone because our focus is female investors.However, (6:00) what quickly happens if we had an all male team with all female investors, it just didn't work. (6:06) They didn't understand each other. So we quickly pivoted that and we're like, okay, (6:10) so now what we're saying is at least one of the C-suite people has to be female.

That's (6:16) our requirement. So we also do invest in male founders as such. But interesting enough, (6:20) the far majority of our whole portfolio is female founders.And that also brings me to (6:26) the firm belief because I know there's a lot of attention on female founders. (6:30) 

And I'm very passionate about like, hey, we need to switch the narrative and get a lot more female (6:35) investors in because automatically more money will go to female founders once we get more female (6:40) investors, because there's just not enough female investors right now. And that's what I saw in (6:45) practice.

So, and what you see happening now, you know, now we've established a brand name, (6:49) we're out there in the market. Many female founders know where to find us. Female founders (6:54) amongst each other are speaking, you know, like, oh, have you checked out Epic Angels already? (6:59) So of course, more and more female founders are coming our way.

But also male founders are like, (7:05) we need women on our cap table. All the investors are men. We need women on there as well.We need (7:11) women as take board seats in our organization. It can't just be only men. So that, yeah, that (7:17) has been very fascinating to see that happening.

Oh, I love that you're really organically sourcing (7:23) deals because there is this myth out there that we've talked about previously, that there just (7:27) aren't enough women to invest in, which we all know is not true. There are amazing female led (7:32) companies out there. 

We have a deal flow of a hundred deals a month, right? We see about 100 (7:39) deals that meet the criteria of at least one C-suite woman right on the team.That's pretty (7:45) insane. And only four of those are being presented to our angels. I mean, yeah, you can't absorb 100 (7:50) deals every month.

So what do we do in terms of deal sourcing? I think the number one source still (7:58) is our own network that we've built over the years. So we have a super strong network with (8:03) venture capital firms in the region. We have a super strong network with accelerator programs, (8:07) with organizations like yourself, Nicole, right, with Next Chapter Raise, where you're seeing a (8:12) lot of good founders coming through.That's where we get the best deals from. That's still what I (8:17) see. The other source that we have right now, more than 400 women in our collective.They bring (8:22) in a lot of deals as well, right? So because they're out there, they're speaking with people (8:25) and they're like, ooh, this is an interesting startup. Let's have a look at them. We also have (8:30) a group of female scouts, 17 of them actually, all in different countries.They're younger girls that (8:36) are typically, you know, in their last year of university, want to get a career in VC and they (8:42) love the whole startup ecosystem.

 So they're out there going to the events locally where we always, (8:47) you know, we can't always be there. So they go out there, source the deals.So we have, (8:51) oh, and then there's the founder to founder conversations that are happening as well. So (8:55) there's really a lot of different ways on how we're getting our deals. And it's a super steady, (9:01) solid stream of deals every month.

Wow. Fantastic. And I mean, (9:04) are you able to share out of those four deals you're presenting a month? I mean, what's your (9:09) either annual or monthly investment rate in terms of how are you kind of going out and actually (9:15) making that decision? 

Yes.So on average, we do one investment a month. So out of the hundred (9:21) deals, we bring that back to about four and we have a group of our angels helping with that. (9:26) It's our investment committee.They decide which four are being presented to our angels. (9:30) We do that during a pitch night. So super fun, five minute pitch by the startup.(9:35) Obviously we can't say yes or no yet after a five minute pitch, but the angels are at least saying (9:40) yes or no. Like, hey, do we want to continue the conversation? Do we really want to get (9:45) your deep dive meaning doing the due diligence to get there? And within Epic Angels, we're not a (9:50) fund, right? So I'm not making any decisions and running this together with Hester, my co-founder (9:56) in Epic Angels. And the two of us, we're not making the decision on who to invest in.The (10:01) angels really do that, but we guide everyone through the process. We're doing due diligence (10:06) together. We have calls with just the angels where we go through all the data rooms and (10:11) gather all our questions.And then we get on a call with the founder to go through, (10:15) and then we make the decision if there's enough interest, because we don't want to invest below (10:19) 50K. That's our minimum threshold, but our angels can already participate with just a thousand (10:26) dollars.

 So for the angels, it's low, but as a group, right, we want to make sure we reach at (10:31) least the 50K.On average, the investment is about a hundred K per deal. (10:37) 

How long does that investment process typically take from when you're seeing them submit that (10:42) first pitch tonight all the way through to signing with them? (10:45) 

If we start from pitch night, so the moment that they're being presented to angels, that's six to (10:50) eight weeks to wiring the money, right? That's roughly what it takes. Before that, it can take (10:56) longer the minute that they submit their pitch to us until the moment that we have pitch night, (11:01) because sometimes we feel like, no, it's too early yet, right? I mean, glad we got to meet (11:05) each other because one of the things with Epic Angels as well, we don't lead a deal since we (11:10) are an angel collective, right? We're not a VC fund.So we've done that once, but in general, (11:15) we don't lead. So we want to make sure there is a lead investor, or at least half of the round is (11:22) committed, because if that's not the case and the terms are changing, it means that the whole (11:27) process with the angels is being delayed and time kills every deal. So we don't want to lose (11:32) the momentum.The moment we're presenting a startup, we want to make sure we can actually (11:37) immediately take action and invest. 

Otherwise, people are out because there's other things (11:43) happening around you and then you lose the attention. So that process varies from the first (11:49) meeting that we have until pitch nights, but once it's pitch night, six to eight weeks.(11:55) 

So what's been one of your most satisfying deals so far? (12:00) 

Oh, there's so many. I mean, I still think our very first one is one that I'm still (12:07) super excited about. That was Aruga, an online pharmacy in Bangladesh.So as I said, (12:13) we did that literally in six weeks. Rosina, one of the founders, she was actually in New York. (12:18) I currently live in New York.She was in New York last week. So we had dinner together (12:22) and she said it as well. That was the most hilarious process.She was pitching at Tech (12:27) in Asia. So we found her at a pitch. I sent her a note on LinkedIn, like, hey, saw your pitch, (12:32) love to talk.And then six weeks later we did that investment. So that was just crazy how (12:36) fast that went. We did that at a valuation.They were super early, pre-seed, right? There wasn't (12:42) anything there yet. 

But last year we did a top up rounds with Epic Angels for 10 times the valuation (12:49) that we went in for. So super excited to see that increase of valuation.It was also our biggest (12:56) check that we did last year with them. So yeah, we're very excited. It's a super solid business, (13:01) amazing founders, and it makes a lot of impact in the region as well.So those are the type (13:07) of deals that excites us most. The business, but combined with the impact angle. (13:12) 

Yeah.And I mean, it's a good experience, right? You know, things have just worked. (13:16) 

What are some red flags when it comes to investment, either before, during, (13:21) or even after you've made that investment? 

There are a couple of red flags. Which one to pick? (13:26) 

Top three.Top three. 

Top three of red flags. I think, for example, you know, when we're in this (13:32) process, gearing up for pitch night, and then we tell everyone like, okay, if you're in pitch night (13:37) and the angels say yes, have your data room ready so we can immediately go into the due diligence.(13:42) So then we get to the pitch night. It is a yes. And then we ask for the data room and then it (13:47) doesn't come.And then a week later, it's still not there. I'm like, what's happening? You're (13:52) raising funds, right? Why is this not ready? That always gives me a little bit of an anxious feeling, (13:57) like, are you really ready? Like what's going on here? Right. So that's definitely a red flag.(14:04) 

Another red flag could be specifically if there's multiple co-founders and then, (14:08) you know, how is that relation between the two of them is one of, we recently had one, (14:14) and then it was actually, it was male founder and female founder. So two co-founders, (14:20) a man and a guy. And then he was taking, he was doing all the talking and you're presenting (14:25) towards female investors.Dude, right? Don't do that. Let the woman talk. And he was all the time (14:31) saying, I am doing this.I am doing that. And I'm like, no, you're there together. Right? So that, (14:37) like that kind of stuff is an immediate red flag.

So that's even maybe earlier on another red flag. (14:43) We just, I was just discussing one this morning, beautiful deck. The custom was, was not even (14:48) mentioned in the whole deck.I'm like, hold on. Right? Like, who's your customer? It's nice what (14:53) you're building, but I want to hear about your customer. Who is it? And what is their real (14:58) problem? And how are you getting them? So I think some of those things are, are definitely red flags (15:06) in the data room.That's where there's a lot more red flags, (15:09) but then we're already a little further along. Yes. Yeah.And I mean, some of that people, (15:13) you know, you know, people just aren't aware of how to set them up. So it's always a challenge (15:18) for them to get them going. But I find the pitch deck one quite interesting.

We, you know, (15:22) people do need to practice that quite a lot. And I remember doing a pitch deck. Someone was pitching, (15:28) you know, just sharing, practicing their pitch with us before going to an investor.(15:31) And then they talked about use the proceeds, you know, how much money do I want? And where is it (15:36) going? And I'm like, great. And then they talked about how they were expanding to America and how (15:41) much money was going to be deployed to America. And I was like, well, that's great.You have not (15:44) mentioned America once in your pitch deck in terms of target audience, in terms of expansion, (15:50) in terms of product development, not once. 

So, you know, it's just these red flags when there's (15:54) not consistency in there. So it's definitely the data room pitch deck and the story that (15:59) you're telling.I mean, that has to be one succinct story, because if something is off, (16:05) then they hold on. What else are you not telling me? I think it's all about trust or another thing (16:09) in pitch decks as well. Like, yeah, I didn't mention the revenue in there because it wasn't (16:13) good.Well, don't try to hide things, right? Because as investors, we will get to a point (16:19) that we need to ask the question. So don't try to hide things because that just makes us suspicious. (16:23) And the relationship is all about mutual trust, obviously.It needs to go two ways. (16:29) So don't try to hide anything. 

Yes.Yes. I suspect that you've seen the same in terms of (16:34) sometimes it's a lack of confidence around the numbers, but the reality is if you've got that (16:39) momentum, you've got a great business opportunity. You still need to be able to talk to those (16:44) numbers, even if there's some holes in there.And I think particularly a number of businesses (16:47) coming out of COVID had to talk to certain stories that they didn't want to talk to, (16:51) but that's okay. I think you just have to be prepared to know that there's going to be some (16:55) tough questions and have some answers and then move forward. 

Absolutely.Right. 

I mean, it's, (17:01) it's, everyone knows that a startup journey is tough and you run into a wall every single week, (17:07) right? And that's okay. But share those things.And only if you're open about that. Also, (17:13) if we do invest, we want, we want to keep on hearing the things that go wrong, so to say, (17:19) or challenging, because that's the only way that we can help is by knowing them. If we don't know, (17:24) we can't do anything either.So, yeah. So, so what do you think could persuade more women (17:30) to start investing in the startup space versus maybe in another area or, you know, (17:37) in a broader portfolio? Because I love looking at the whole portfolio. What should they be (17:41) thinking about before they even start? So I know there's certain requirements they would need to (17:44) meet, for example.

Yes. 

So, okay. So requirements first in a lot of countries, (17:51) there is a regulation around being an accredited investor.That means you need to have a certain (17:57) income threshold or certain assets thresholds. Every country has a different regulation. That's (18:03) very frustrating.So first of all, you need to make sure you comply with that local regulation. (18:08) So assuming you comply with that, then how do you get started? And it's, it's all about (18:14) finding that deal flow, which you can do by joining a network. 

Obviously, if you're a woman (18:20) listening to this, but there's many others out there as well.Right? So take a look around, (18:26) you just Google angel networks in my region and you'll find them and then visit them, (18:30) just join them. And we also, our first three months are open for everyone because we just (18:35) want women to just experience it without any obligation or whatever, not just to (18:42) see is this, is this for you? Yes or no? Because, and you don't know also for women, (18:48) don't think you need a certificate first before you can start investing. You already have the (18:54) knowledge to do it and you will really learn by doing.

What you should not do is put 50k immediately (19:01) in your first startup investment. I think that that's, you know, that could lead to a lot of (19:06) failure. So start small, but start.And I think that's also why in Epic Angel specifically, (19:12) we're saying you can already start with a thousand US dollars. That's it. And for me, (19:17) what I'm very passionate about is how can we get women to the point that you invest $10,000? (19:24) That's it.$10,000. And if you think about that, I mean, I hope many potential investors or people (19:30) that are contemplating this, look at your own bank account. Who has $10,000 just sitting in there (19:38) doing nothing, not part of your emergency fund, not part of your pension funds, probably not even (19:43) yielding interest.

That $10,000, that's the only thing that I'm saying, let's move that, right? (19:49) Let's move that as a starting point into angel investing. And don't do it all in one time. You (19:54) can do that 10 times a thousand dollars, right? And because by the time you're doing your 10th (19:59) investment, you're going to be a lot better investor than when you do your first one.(20:04) And you educate yourself. And the great part is you're diversifying immediately because startup (20:08) investing is, it's super risky. That's absolutely a fact.So don't put all your money in one. You (20:15) have to build a portfolio. You have to diversify, but do start.Start with that first small (20:21) investment and then build it up from there. I think that that is very critical if you want to (20:26) get started into angel investing. And then maybe one last point, because you spoke about portfolio.(20:32) Overall, don't do more than 5% of all your assets into angel investing. Keep on doing the other (20:39) investing, meaning real estate, stock exchange, gold, whatever you want to invest in. Make sure (20:46) the other 95% is in all these other buckets and don't put all your money into angel investing.(20:52) That's just too much. Yeah. They often say if you can't afford to lose it, then don't do it.(20:58) In terms of, you need to have that confidence there in terms of your broader financial position (21:03) because of the risk associated. 

Thank you for sharing that. I think that's a really good point.(21:07) What I see is the biggest hurdle for women to get started is the courage to invest. 

That (21:14) unfortunately is the thing what's holding back most women. I mean, there's even been a study (21:19) where they asked women, who's the better investor, men or women? 91% of the women (21:26) say that the men is the better investor, 91%.However, the same study show women are a better (21:34) investor. I just saw three recent studies. All three of them show that women get better financial (21:41) results out of investments, even though they think the men is the better investor.It's not. (21:46) 

Why are women the better investors? 

Three reasons. They think about long-term, (21:50) so it's not about short-term game.It's long-term about the whole ecosystem. (21:54) They diversify better. What we spoke about earlier, it's about spreading your risk.(21:58) That's a reason. The third one is they do self-education. They educate themselves (22:02) before they're putting all the money into one basket.

Stop that. Be courageous. Just start (22:11) doing it.You'll see you can do it and you're a better investor than any men out there. (22:15) Yeah, 100%. I'm always like the Nike ad.Just do it. Just get started. Have a try.(22:22) Time passes too quickly if you procrastinate, so you've just got to do it. One final question (22:27) before we finish today, because I'm sure we could do more and more and more. Where do you see the (22:32) future trends or what do you look forward to around either industries? 

I know we've already (22:38) talked about Asia being a real growth area and somewhere that you're already focused on.Is (22:42) there certain industries or any particular country you're really excited about, say, in the (22:45) next year to five years? Not sure how far you want to look out. 

We're really industry agnostic, (22:51) so we invest in anything, although in general it's more tech-related because that just leads to more (22:58) opportunities to scale faster and will lead to potentially better exits. That's what we're (23:03) typically in.In terms of countries, we've this year started to include more like the Middle East, (23:10) which officially is Asia-Pacific as well. We're now slowly adding that. Initially, (23:16) we didn't look at that, so that's what we've been adding.We really look at the official (23:21) definition of Asia-Pacific.

 I'm not sure if I see more countries over the other countries. (23:27) I think what we are doing as Epic Angels is really further establishing the local networks (23:33) a lot stronger.That's Hong Kong being one of those regions where we're really (23:38) stronger looking into getting more investors and getting more deals because that always goes hand (23:44) in hand. That's what I'm seeing. What I also see, however, is there is one other region that's now (23:50) having a huge pull on us, and that's South America.

The whole LATAM region is what I'm (23:56) seeing. In Asia, we've actually just been awarded or announced by Tech in Asia as being the fourth (24:02) most active angel network in the whole of Asia. 

Wow.Congratulations. (24:08) 

Yeah. I was so excited because out of all these male investment networks, we are the number four (24:14) most active one.That means doing the most deals in the whole of Asia. That was super, (24:20) super excited. Definitely want to stay there or ideally move up, obviously, doing more deals, (24:27) so keep on doing that, but also looking into South America.(24:32) Because there's a lot of similarities between the two regions, (24:37) so I can definitely see that happening as well in the next couple of years. (24:41) 

Well, congratulations on that award. I love Epic Angels.I joined one of their first events here (24:47) already in Hong Kong, so excited to see more here. 

Thank you so much for being on the podcast (24:54) episode today, sharing your story, talking about Epic Angels, motivating if you're a female (24:59) potential investor out there, look out for Epic Angels. If you're already an active investor, (25:06) I'm sure you can reach out to Epic Angels as well and get involved with them.

Maybe you've (25:10) got that expertise you can bring along as well, or a network you can share. I'm sure Maaike and (25:14) Hester would be excited to speak to anyone who's interested in learning more. 

Absolutely.(25:19) Doesn't matter whether you're a seasoned investor or not. It's an amazing group of women that we (25:25) have all over the world.

Fantastic.Well, thank you very much, Maaike. I really appreciate your (25:30) time today. 

To connect with Next Chapter Raise, follow us on social media, visit the website at (25:41) nextchapterraise.com and subscribe to our podcast for more great stories to inspire and empower (25:48) female entrepreneurs to become money smarter, commercially confident and funding savvy.