The Garden as Talisman: Astrology, Magic, & The Zodiac Garden Guide with Isaac Hill

In this episode, I’m joined by Isaac Hill — occultist, astrologer, musician, gardener, and co-host of the always-fascinating Plant Cunning Podcast. Isaac lives on an herb farm in Central New York State with his wife, AC, and together they have interviewed some of the most important herbalists, occultists, astrologers, and permaculturists working today. He is also the author of The Heathen Golden Dawn and his new book, The Zodiac Garden Guide, which we discuss in this episode.

In our conversation, we talk about what it means to create a zodiac garden - not simply as a list of plant correspondences, but as an intersection of astrology, plants, place, magic, and the intelligence of the garden itself. (A garden as an astrological talisman, in a sense.) Isaac shares how he came to astrology through tarot, music, astrological magic, and permaculture, and we explore tropical and sidereal astrology, plant correspondences, and the balance between magical perception and practical gardening knowledge.

This year's Plant Cunning Conference will be happening July 24–26, 2026, on AC and Isaac’s land in Central New York State. Sadly I won’t be there this year because I’ll be traveling, but I was grateful to present and attend in previous years, and I highly recommend checking it out if you can make it — or visiting the Plant Cunning website and podcast either way, to learn more.


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Find Isaac Hill online -

Buy the Zodiac Garden Guide: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0GW7F2KRP
Plant Cunning Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/plantcunning/ 
The Plant Cunning Conference: https://plantcunningconference.com/
The Plant Cunning Podcast on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@plantcunning


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And Watch Episodes on YouTube: The Garden as Talisman: Astrology, Plants & The Zodiac Garden Guide with Isaac Hill 


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Transcript

0:00

where's the separation between the magical and the non magical when you're living in a in a in a world full of conscious beings you know it's there's not so much of a dividing line so is the is the plant with the yellow leaves is that a form of divination like you have to read the signs you know like oh that's that I know what that's saying it's saying it it the pH is wrong welcome to coffee and divination a podcast about the arts of obtaining hidden knowledge in changing times join me Joanna Ferrar to chat with experts from around the world on tarot runes geomancy and the many ways divination can help us navigate and plan our paths ahead I'm happy to be speaking with Isaac Hill today Isaac is an occultist an astrologer and musician and gardener who lives on an herb farm in central New York State with his wife AC you may remember that AC and Isaac have been on the show before they are both wonderful and together they host the Plant Cunning podcast that I'm sure many listeners are also familiar with he is the author of the recent book The Zodiac Garden Guide exploring the creation of a Zodiac Garden which we'll speak about today and previously he is the author of The Heathen Golden Dawn before we begin of course I also want to mention that the Plant Cunning Conference is happening this year on AC and Isaac's Farm from July 24th to the 26th which is very soon but if you can make it I highly recommend it I won't be there this year sadly because I'll be in England but I was grateful to present and attend in previous years it's beautiful to see what AC and Isaac have created on their land in New York State you can find details in the show notes and even if you've missed the conference this year check out the Plant Cunning podcast and their website as always if you enjoy the podcast please share it with a friend and leave us a five star review and of course you can always find me for more conversations at our Instagram at coffee and divination and over on our website where I am excited to say that there will be some very new offerings and announcements about courses and other things happening this fall so now enjoy this conversation with Isaac Hill so it is my pleasure to have back on the show someone who I'm sure many of my listeners are very familiar with Isaac Alexander Hill and it is a pleasure to have you here so thank you for coming back on well of course it's my pleasure uh and honor and I always like uh hanging out with you talking with you so uh I'm excited to get going yeah alright let's do this so you know the traditional first question and you have answered it before so this is an unusual situation where I'm kind of gonna ask you the same question again but I feel like considering what we're going into with your book today it makes a lot of sense to go back over so the question is of course what was your first exposure to divination and in this case you know what was your first exposure to astrology and the way that you sort of first encountered astrological things sure so my first exposure to divination was probably I mean flipping a coin right um but I started with the tarot uh intensely probably at age 21 or 22 23 that early 20s um and uh the tarot was was I actually wrote a bunch of like songs about like I wrote some songs that are named after some of the the Major Arcana um when I when I when I was really focused on the the band and music thing as my main as the main thing um because there's just such great symbolism in the tarot and they're useful as an initiatory tool as well as a divination tool and that's kind of how I see astrology as well and that's how I got more into astrology was more as initiation and so I mean I had heard you know I knew my sun sign and I was like what's my rising what's my moon that kind of stuff and I had a friend who was an astrologer who would get really complex you know but um when I started getting into into magic and before that I was more interested in like the spiritual development like I was kind of chasing enlightenment that kind of thing um I was more interested in magic as as initiation and um I got interested in in working through the the celestial spheres and doing astrological magic in that way like which is really an ancient like hermetic way of of of of of initiation moving um back up through the spheres and I think I the first book I I worked with was Frater Aros Rufus Opuses Seven Spheres um and so I was doing that for a while and then I was like what's up what's I hear I keep hearing about the picatrix and you know John Michael Greer was translating this with Christopher Warnock who's Christopher Warnock uh what's this traditional like uh medieval Renaissance astrological magic so I started studying with Christopher Warnock and um learning like more intense like traditional techniques for creating talismans um and I also studied horary with him which is like straight divination um in terms of astrology and I'm still like there's still a conversation about like what is astrology is it divination I mean that's like a whole whole uh can of worms that we could get into um but horary is like very much divination so so that was learning horary was and was really important for me too um in order to see like how it works and like get practice with astrology especially and you get like feedback yeah pretty immediate usually feedback especially with with horary um and then I started studying with Freedom Cole in the vatic vatic lineage that I that I'm currently mainly uh situated within so that's kind of like my astrological background ha ha and how I got into it that's a that's a lot of different pathways and a lot of different strands of of astrology all leading here so yes um to go back to your your thoughts on whether astrology is divination I think you and I could go off on some tangents about how we define the word divination cause then we would have to go there before we went any further but yeah maybe we'll get there today maybe that'll be a separate conversation but still um the one of the main points of course you you mentioned Vedic astrology and you know you mentioned you knowing your your sun sign maybe your moon your rising which might be the situation that a lot of listeners are in of like that's where their level of knowledge is I'm sure we have some people who are listening who are extremely knowledgeable about many of those other branches of astrology if you were to um two of the terms that are very important in your book are the the difference between tropical and sidereal uh astrology do you think you could just define those two things for us I know it's it's kind of complex but I'm sure you could break it down in a way that would be understandable for some people if it's new yeah for sure and in a way it's also it's it's very it's complex but it's also very simple it's just um the difference between siderial and tropical is the difference between the seasons and the stars um is one way of saying it but and and we've had you know there are megalithic structures that are oriented towards fixed stars and there are megalithic structures that are oriented towards solstices and equinoxes so um relating to the sky either through the tropical or the syberial way of our is an ancient thing like um and you know we've known about the procession of the equinox for quite a long time but the procession of the equinox is the the the movement between the stars and the seasons so the zodiac uh the way that the astrologers use the zodiac it's it's using the sexy decimal system which is a 60 base 60 12 um rather than the 10 um which is the ancient um way of counting especially it's very good for circles and um and we still use it with the clock right the clock is a zodiac in a way but this zodiac is a circle of the sky cut up into 360 degrees right that's 360 degrees in a circle um and those 360 degrees are cut in cut up into 12 30 degree sections so those are even 30 degree sections of the sky and we have 12 because there are 12.3 full moons in a year in one year so that's why some people say there's 13 there should be 13 signs or 13 um full moons um but you know we're rounding so there's there's 12 and that's why we have twelve um in those 12 30 degree sections of the sky are named the same names in both the invatic astrology and in tropical astrology but because the due to the procession of the equinoxes they have moved apart by one degree every 72 years so now they're almost a full sign apart and this is what gives rise to the idea of like the age of Aquarius when the the vernal equinox point will be in the sign of Aquarius which is still another 200 years or so away but we can see that we're like at maybe at the dawning of that where the first light is breaking in a certain way we're like in the getting to the cusp of that um change but the the sidereal zodiac is those 12 30 degree sections of the sky attached to the sky at the fixed stars and in India we generally attach it at the fixed star Spica so the fixed star Spica or Chitra is 0 degrees Libra basically that's the roughly that's that's the basic basic way to do it and then in the tropical zodiac which we use mostly in in the west um and this is it comes from Persian Arabic Middle Eastern astrology um this is the the 0 degrees Aries is attached to the sky at the spring equinox so we have the these the same 12 30 degree sections of the sky named the same but they are actually different because of where they're attached to the sky so maybe maybe at some point the the tropical zodiac signs will get new names um maybe not who knows names are names to a certain degree are also are are arbitrary so even though Aries no longer tropical Aries no longer contains the constellation Aries um we still refer to that window that portion of the sky as Aries um and black used to mean white or something like that so haha there is this arbitrariness to it as well um so that that's a little I guess I got a little complicated there does that make sense yes I I think so it's it really is a matter of the different orientation of what your in a sense could you say it's almost like what you're considering your zero point is is different but then beyond that the the delineations are basically the same it's just where you're starting from would you say I'm I'm just trying to come up with like a yeah yeah so so they are um the the tropical zodiac which is used in in western astrology and the sidereal zodiac which is used in in Vedic astrology um they the zero point is the frame of reference is is different it is one is the fixed stars one is the is the seasons now there are a lot of differences in technique as well so there is a lot of things that are similar and Vedic astrology is very similar to like Hellenistic like ancient Hellenistic astrology and it's also important to note that people like Hellenistic astrology that we're currently see is a is a reconstruction so we don't even know really everything that they were doing back then but the Vedic astrology is a living lineage that has been maintained for you know a long time um so and in tropical astrology there is also a living lineage that has been maintained for a very long time yeah so they're using different techniques too so there are some similar similarities but when I'm using the Vedic astrology and I'm working with Vedic astrology I'm using the sidereal zodiac and then I'm using the the techniques that are associated with this tradition so I'm using whole signs I'm using whole sign houses I'm using whole sign aspects I'm using dashas I'm using um amakarikas and charakarikas I'm using all these other technical things when I'm using the tropical zodiac when I'm working with the picatrix to make astrological talismans um or even when I'm doing astrological gardening from from this tradition then I'm using the the the tropical signs I'm using applying and separating exact aspects between planets trines sextiles squares oppositions etcetera which is different than whole sign aspects they're they're different kinds of aspects I'm and so they're using different techniques with within each tradition so that and that's how what that's what makes sense to me in order to be able to like toggle between systems mm hmm so so we'll get into I'm sure the some of the those techniques themselves when we get into a few specific plants or or things of that nature but then what was the uh impetus for creating a Zodiac garden itself like how do you see that connection point between all these studies that you've done with all these amazing teachers and different traditions and what LED you to putting it in the ground yeah well I'd like I guess I'd like to say that before being an astrologer or a um even a spiritual seeker I've always been a plant guy haha uh I was homeschooled um until until high school yeah and so I I was allowed to be out in the woods for like hours all the I was just out in the woods all the time and I was allowed to then also pick my own curriculum to a certain degree so like I wanted to do a a research project on edible wild plants when I was nine so I Learned all the edible wild plants in the vicinity started I dug a pond I you know so I've always been interested in plants and you know that's kind of like my primary um one of my primary passions um and then right after college uh I I got interest interested in permaculture and that was kind of like this mind blowing experience for me um I I kind of see permaculture as a as a as a mystery school in a certain degree to like uh it it in its way of um inculcating or cultivating the whole systems or systems theory from an ecological perspective uh that that world view or that perspective that paradigm I I mean I'm not sure the exact right word but that consciousness the whole system's consciousness and that was mind blowing for me so and one of the reasons I I wanted to get into to magic and astrology in the first place I mean part of it was the the initiation the the spiritual spiritual um progression that kind of thing but part of it was also I I really I had this vision of like a magical garden so what does that actually mean sacred geometry or like what what are we doing like what is what's involved in this and that was a thought I had you know when I was getting into permaculture and like working on my garden but you know as I studied and studied it's like took took took more shape like you know astrology is in in especially you know western you know this this this this this magic astrology is like the and it also in India too astrology is a a like a language a common language between all the esoteric um disciplines uh so you know when you look at Agrippa uh which is sort of like the even in you look in the grimoires it's like they're using astrological language throughout the whole through everything so you know that that's pretty crucial and at at a certain point I was like I I I I think I actually was reading in a book about some was some like um historical novel set in the in the 16th century or something and they had they were talking about this alchemist who had like a tree planted in a particular place because he wanted to boost his mercury I was like well that's interesting um so what is how do you do that so I kept digging in I was I was you know studying with Chris Warlock and he said that you could make anything into a talisman you could make a city you know that Addison time this the city as a talisman you can make a garden into a talisman I was like wait what you can make a garden into a talisman how do you do that and so I asked him he was like you know well you know like pick the date you start pick the date you end um like okay it seems like a little more complicated than that though um so I but I had this idea of a zodiac garden when how do you actually make a zodiac garden and so the book is basically me figuring out how to make a zodiac garden because it's something that has existed you know it's like a a thing I just don't know I I couldn't see very many examples of it though um and the examples that I did see were kind of like you know like what's your what's your sun signs flower you know plant your sun signs flower something like that it's not very like uh integrated into like a traditional understanding of astrology um so I did the research you know and I was like but after this is a several years of me like thinking about it and like pondering it and then me like sitting down was like what plants would go where what plants would go in each bed how would I actually design a zodiac garden um it's like oh well there's the the the the western or this is the the North Indian chart in India we would see this diamond chart and we would consider this like the um the like the diamond chart or like the a square chart in medieval Renaissance astrology um and it's actually the perfect design for a formal garden you know you have like you can have make it into four beds with like divisions you know it it works really well and there are actually all these other traditional uh chart styles from India too and that are also used in in in Greece and in other parts of the world um like this like this chart style I don't know if you can see it but that's the the the East Indian chart style which is also used in Byzantium you know there they're wonderful wonderful ways of of making a zodiac garden you can also use a circle chart there's you know ways to do that too the circle is a little bit harder to make into a formal garden you know but uh but you can do it um and so I was just putting these together trying to figure it out and I was like I'm just gonna do it I'm gonna do it so I I had the time I was like I'm gonna do it so I did it and then I was like well I better write a book about it so other people can do it if they want to too haha I think that so that it's very interesting because when people are approaching astrology I have sometimes had friends there's a sort of impact that you get to where people's understanding of astrology can get blocked by the idea that well everything just becomes a chart in a book do you know what I mean where you find a list and the list told you that Mars plants or Mars qualities are this and I feel like the the act of putting it into something like plants or garden layout or other aspects of the world can help to break that sort of list thinking when it comes so you break down the book you spend a good deal of time talking about the qualities and how many different ways of of you know classifying these plants and different qualities there are but by the end of that the through line is that then you can figure it out for yourself as opposed to just reading a list there but it can be a little overwhelming if you were to if you were talking to someone that was like I I can't memorize every quality of all these different plants or ideas what do you think the big picture qualities that are found in this is gonna be a little unfair perhaps that are found in both of the the large world traditions that you are a practitioner of would be the most important for people who are just trying to dig in and understand like what qualities to be looking at when they're looking at a list or a plant yeah and and I would like to first say that there's this difference between like natural astrology and like judicial astrology is the way to say it um there's a difference between like using the astrology as a language for relating to the cosmos and then using that language in order to predict people's futures or give them remedies or etcetera you know what I mean so you don't have to do the whole practicing astrologer thing to understand astrology and have it be very useful for you and to learning this the language of astrology is very helpful for anybody who is undertaking an esoteric path the the other core thing is that it's about relation and and that's the thing I think people don't get it growing up in in the US you know you might learn in school like these lists and you have to memorize these lists for this test and there's just one to one there's one correct answer very the cut and dry reality is a lot more messy and it's a lot more complex so if you understand the the the the the core like qualities of the planets and the signs and the plants then it's very easy for you to to make the these connections these relations so some of the most important ways for understanding the planets are 1 the energetics of the plant of the planet and and cause those are those translate directly to plants cause plants also have energetics and this is the the first thing in framework is hot dry cold wet and those are the elements the vedic framework is a little bit different but it's it's similar still it's similar um so Mars is hot and dry in the third fourth three it's extremely hot and dry that's Mars planet of aggression masculinity blood like these kind of things so plants that are very hot and dry are martial garlic garlic can literally cause chemical burns on your skin hot and dry now uh so that's that's the energetic way uh moon is cold and moist it's moistening it's soothing so plants like a cabbage which is cold and moist and soothing that can be a a moon plant and and and down the line each each planet has its has its energetic qualities so those are important to understand and then the the the Zodiac man or melothia or um the Homo signorum or in in Vedic astrology we call the kalaparusha the the person the embodiment of time the person that is time um time as a person so this is the macrocosm of the zodiac and in there we have Aries as the head Taurus as the throat Gemini as the shoulders and hands and lungs cancer as the breasts and the stomach Leo as the heart and as the spine um and so on down to Pisces are are the feet so that's the the zodiacal human and that's and this is the the core system that Cole Pepper is using so if if people know Nicholas Culpepper's um complete English physician complete herbal that's like a core like core herbalism uh text that's been continuously in print since the the the the 1600s and he's using this astrological framework and he's and and how he's corresponding plants to to diseases is and through through planets is uh is these elemental qualities the actions of the of the plant so like Mars is heating drying there Venus can be relaxing so he's using this relaxing for Venus um and then the the part of the body that the plant is affecting so Venus rules in his system uh is Venus rules dandelion because it relaxes the urinary tract so the uh the the and Venus rules the the the the the rains and the um the kidneys so it's like relaxing the kidneys it's helping you helping you pee hahaha right so that's Libra Libra is the rains is the kidneys um so this is like this this framework now there are all there's also the magical framework which is important and these are kind of the two core and there's other ways too but these are kind of the two core this is like herbalism this astrological herbalism framework which is using the qualities and the zodiacal human and then there's just the magical qualities of the plant these are the what what a gripple would call the occult virtues and so Mars is protective right so Mars is the warrior uh the police person this like this kind of can be aggressive you can use it for like attack or you can use it for defense this is the main Mars thing so um what do we use garlic for what's everyone knows garlic is used magically to protect against vampires right so like it's like that kind of it's a it's a protective plant uh thorny plants are Mars thorny plants are also commonly used magically for Protection um and then you know love magic Venus Venus rules love romance so plants that are used in a for love magic are associated with Venus so for instance like orris root an orris root is a is an Iris and irises are generally ruled by the moon or Venus but orrises specifically used uh for perfumery it's made into perfume and then because it's used for perfume it's used for for romance for attraction so it's a Venus herb you know so those are kind of the the the the the two ways of relating with plants and planets that that I think are especially useful and simple um to to understand and they're core that and a lot of people for some reason well I mean I I think a lot of people understand that as well but um it's it's good to clearly like just you know go through it and see like how the plants and the planets relate instead of just just like reading off a list ha ha ha ha ha exactly and that can also then help with uh when you find lists that conflict or with ideas between these various even the the very traditional authors so uh can have differences of opinion and I was curious when I was looking over your list um have there been ones that when you have been working with the plant and when you were going to say put them in the ground you found that you just fundamentally disagreed with with how they had been handled by other authors or do you find that usually it's like nope that that just about lines up every time you know what I mean like are there ones that you have found that particularly no I know that this is traditional but the place where I placed it in the garden or when I have relationships with this plant it actually has seemed like it's under a different rulership than I was expecting sure and so I guess the one other thing that's important to to note too is that it because it's all it's relational it's gonna depend on what the purpose is for working with that plant in that way is gonna that's gonna determine how you're relating with it and so what planetary hierarchy you're you're relating with it through so like um for instance dandelion you know Colbert was using it as a Venus plant because it's it's working on the kidneys relaxing to the kidneys uh but another person could use it as a solar plant if you're collecting the flowers because those flowers are are yellow and they're they open during the sun when the sun's shining so you could you could work with it as a as a solar plant you could also work with it as a lunar plant the nutritious milky leaves right the the milky sap and leaves you could you could work with that as a Jupiterian plant can bring luck um you can work with the root it the root works on the bladder but it also works on the it works on the kidneys but it also works on the liver so the liver is ruled by Jupiter so it depends on how you're relating with the plant there are a lot of times where the where authors can be have conflicting associations with with a plant and a lot of times it's just based on how they're using it there's also this um this principle of sympathy and antipathy and this is very crucial for traditional medicine um but for everything really haha sympathy and antipathy uh it's kind of a core magical the principal as well um and so some plants will be used worked with to in a sympathetic way because garlic is hot and dry it's it's associated with with Mars and it will heat and dry but there are also if you read the the literature um there's a lot of plants that are applied antipathetically so especially with Saturn cause Saturn is extremely cold and dry a lot of his herbs are actually moistening so for instance Solomon seal comfrey those are both cold and moist and so uh in that way they're they're applied to heal the the the diseases that Saturn makes so there but there's also other deep like saturnian like associations with both comfrey and Solomon Seal but then also somebody might so for instance some people will have comfrey as a Jupiterian plant and that also makes sense from that perspective so um usually if if there's a a conflict I can see why there's a conflict it's depending on the use but so for just just now just like a couple days ago I got these balsam for well they're actually Canaan fir it's a subspecies of balsam fir from from West Virginia and I just have some balsam fir essential oil here I'm like on a little bit of a balsam fir kick right now and so I was looking it's like what how do I plant this cause I'm I'm trying to plant especially trees on on good elections and that will depend on what planet I'm associating with that that plant or that tree and so I looked into in in colpepper and he has fur listed as a Mars plant and that makes that makes I can see why there's like this hot dry quality to it there's a a martial quality to to the evergreens in general um but I I I I was like this is to me Balsam fir is a sun tree and there's a lot of similarity between Mars and sun they're both hot and dry right uh Mars is extremely hot and dry hot and dry in the third and fourth degree sun is more moderately hot and dry um they both are protective um but the sun is more like blessing and and this apotropaic Protection Protection again it removes evil influence right um and balsam fir to me I mean so the sun also rules things like frankincense and Angelica right and to me balsam fir is very much in that vein the resin of the balsam fir is that means balsam it's um it it it removes negative influence it's um it it also is hot and dry and helps clear the lungs of phlegm you know so I'm like hey this is a sun plant to me so I I I I I picked a well I I didn't have very much time but I I I I picked a Leo rising haha to plant it so so that was that was one example exactly exactly yeah and that's the drawing then upon all the other experiences that you have with plants that are within those you know within those differing qualities that you can then compare and contrast to for what your purposes are but also your experience of the plant so yeah you are also I mean you you mentioned colpepper there's a number is many sources that you list in the book but there's also the traditional sort of folk practices of North America and that has you know very deep roots as well though it is uh different so can you tell us a little bit about like how you incorporate that or what your your background is in that and how you see that kind of interacting with this because then I think that takes us into timing of planting which you have just uh you know mentioned because that's a that's a big part of your book as well is is how do we get to good sort of electional astrology for planting itself um so because you know I live in in the US you know I've my I've my my family's lived in here lived here for generations over seven generations of in the north central Appalachian region a lot there are a lot of plants here that are from Europe and that Culpepper talks about but most like a lot of the plants are native plants and I work with a lot of native plants that aren't listed in Culpepper or any of these traditional European or Middle Eastern or Indian sources right um so but if you you know by understanding how things are corresponded it's very easy to just on one way just look at like so for instance butterfly weed uh Asclepias tuberosa which is a beautiful uh orange flowered milkweed that doesn't have any milk um people grow it all the time as a ornamental plant it's a fan one of the favorites of of native plant gardeners um so it it's pleurisy root it's it works on the lungs so right away there's this there's this Gemini Association with it because the lungs are ruled by Gemini and then we can look at some of the ETH ethnobotanical um literature and see that like it there there are also used as this messenger of the gods sort of or messenger to of spirit sort of plant um by by some native tribes so we see there's again there's this mercury association um so we have this mercury in Gemini for for for for butterfly weed and you know I I that's one thing that one project that I that I want to do is more is really dig into the ethnobotanical sources um for for these plants and I've done some of that uh but there's a lot more that I have to do haha as well um but for instance um apopanax apopanax uh horridus which is uh a a ginseng family member from the West Coast it's also called Devil's Devil's Club um it's a pretty intense plant um and looking at the ethnobotanical sources for that which are just online you know just look on Wikipedia you can find them and and go read those articles um they're talking about the native tribes working with it as a plant of Protection you know spiritual Protection and it's like you know and why did it because it has all these thorns on it right it has this potent uh you can potent sap it's a strong smell um and it's you know it's got it's covered in these thorns so right away I mean like from the ancient ancient text any thorny plant is considered a Mars plant right but it's also you know Mars is is a protective plant so they're using it for this Protection that's a Mars plant from that perspective too and and it's also interest it's important to note like there's a reason like it's it's thorny so it's a Mars plant it's thorny so it's used for Protection right spiritually I mean there are other reasons too not just that it's thorny but they're all related you know Mars is is the symbol that we're giving for this kind of protective thorny energy this influence right so that's kind of how how I'm doing that makes sense absolutely and it also kind of it shows the the interactions of yes I mean you're looking at thorns as one very obvious thing that we can see on a number of plants that that lead obviously or the color of of a flower or if you are knowledgeable then about like the the properties and the medicinal uses of the plant you can go there but there's a lot of different um aspects of any one plant that you can then relate to your knowledge of any these other and then when you put them all together they're generally going to line up to some sort of majority opinion depending on what your use would be like what what is your relationship with that plant will then lead you to be looking more at that particular element of its of what its component parts are yeah and I I think there's another important thing important point to make here too and it's that the the the plants that I'm that I'm going through in the book for the signs I'm I'm choosing plants that are like very clearly embodying that influence but most I mean a lot of plants like a lot of people I mean well everything in the subliminal sphere is composed of all of the planets and all of the celestial influences right um and everybody has a chart everyone has a birth chart with all of the planets in them right some people might have Mars rising with Aries you know Mars and Aries rising and they're like a very martial Aries kind of person right but most people are a mix of everything and depends on what what part of them that you're looking at same thing with plants for instance you know roses have thorns the thorns are martial but the rose itself is this kind of Venusian beautiful flower so plants are complex haha none of us are one aspected although yes exactly so we've spoken a lot I I have a lot of Aries influence on me so I'm like oh yes let's talk about the thorny plants but we have I feel like we need to talk more about the moon right now because as you point out of course um the moon is very important for all plants and all forms of gardening on some some level so the moon also then has a lot to do with the timing of planting itself and there's a number of different ways of interacting with and looking at the moon as it's important for timing so can you maybe talk to us a little bit about lunar things for a moment sure yeah and I guess the first thing is that the moon is the ruler of the sub lunar sphere it translates and transmits all of the other celestial influences to the sub lunar sphere in in the classical you know understanding of the cosmos so the moon is important for doing anything you know and if you're getting into electional astrology or mahurta it's like the moon is the most important I mean you have the significator planet planet but the moon is always important for every election and the moon is especially important for planting because the moon rules plants um the growth of plants and so there are several different traditions for working with the moon uh in terms of planting um one that many people might know is the planting by the signs which um is talked about in the Foxfire book Foxfire Book one planting by the signs there's a section on that and this this is the the Appalachian uh folks especially in the southern I mean southern central Appalachians um my great grandmother also planted by the signs um in her in her in her garden we use this this knowledge and and uh we're you know doing this they still still are doing this I'm I'm still doing this um and you're using the tropical signs the moon going through in each in each of the tropical signs is a means a different thing so the the what I especially like is when the moon is in tropical water signs and Taurus to plant and then when the moon is in like Aries it's good to till when the moon is in like you know the the fire signs it's good to till or kill etcetera um and then also factoring in the phase of the moon you know you generally you like to to grow above ground plants in the waxing moon and then uh grow below ground plants in the waning moon it's good to kill plants in the the the dark moon um etcetera those the basic phase so phase and sign and this is the the the planting by the signs which is this um comes from this this almanac tradition people in in the Appalachians like when people are reading the the the Foxfire book they might think that so they're just like they're they're all like getting an almanac every year and reading it and seeing when the moon is in that sign and planting and that's my great grandmother did she would get the almanac every year and and use that to plant so it's like using the almanac and the almanac was the almanacs were made by astrologers it's the calendar that everyone could have so uh it would have the feast days on it it would have the the moons transits um and some other and also prediction usually there's still the the I think the Old Farmer's Almanac still has still has the the the moon phases in it though the Old Farmer's Almanac also I think that that was the one that was more scientific and was started after the the Enlightenment so it like at famously at the beginning it didn't really have much of the the astrology it was more just astronomical so you know that's like the basic the basic like planting by the signs from this like Anglo American tradition um moon in water signs and Taurus and other earth signs too but not so much Virgo more like and Capricorn I like Capricorn for root plants but not Taurus is the exaltation of the moon so we're always good there Taurus is the best um so and the moon phase that's the Anglo American tradition coming from earlier traditions um and then what what I like to do too with that to expand that is also I'm looking at like when the moon is like applying to Jupiter or etcetera that's that's like that's more advanced you don't have to do that um so most people working with the the moon in that way aren't aren't going to that level but so there's there's that then there's also the biodynamic calendar which was started by Maria Thun um in she was a biodynamic grower obviously biodynamics was started by Rudolf Steiner um he was sort of collecting and transmitting all of this uh continental European agricultural lore to this this this uh 20th century crowd um and you know by the by the dynamic calendar it uses a true siderial zodiac or a constellation zodiac and so this does not use 30 even degree sections of the sky they use the actual constellations and I understand why they do that well it makes it it it makes sense from this mid twentieth century scientific perspective they're using astronomy not astrology all that you know so that's and that's kind of how they frame it there's a whole system for doing it and biodynamics is a beautiful system and the biodynamic calendar is used by a lot of people to great success so I'm not dissing that by any means that's just not the main way that I do it currently so that's another system but that really is part of this almanac tradition as well um and then the other tradition that I work with is the the Vedic tradition and in the Vedic tradition we're looking at the moon going through the nakshatras and the nakshatras are the the the mansions of the moon and we use 27 there's really 27 or 28 cause it takes 27 and a third or so days for the moon to come back to the same place in the sky so that's like the lunar zodiac and so these 27 we use 27 for mundane purposes and 28 for spiritual purposes in my Vedic uh tradition in in in the yogic tradition so the moon going through these 27 nakshatras is the core of the uh this vedic way of planting um and these nakshatras have different qualities uh so like um pushya the nourisher is this is this has it has this quality has a soft nourishing quality so there's the quality of the actual nakshatra which is either like fixed or sharp or soft and there's also the quality of the nakshatra itself you know so pushya is this nourisher so it's a good time to take medicine or to plant medicinal plants it comes in early uh sidereal cancer so it's like this home base of the moon um pushya and uh and mula mula is root it means root and so it's it's actually the Noksha that's uh connected to the galactic center you know this dark space so it's this root and it's good for planting roots right haha but it's also it's it's it can be a little bit tougher for other things uh you don't wanna be planting your flowers in Mula so you know there's this whole this whole system with the nakshatras and then there's a lot more complicated things you can stack on top of that just like I stack a lot of more complicated stuff on top of the basic moon in the tropical sun tropical signs right so those are the basics you know moon and the signs and then the the phase of the moon yeah and making sure that the the that the moon is happy that the moon in whatever else you are doing that the the moon is not afflicted or in some way in in a bad position could you maybe give us an example of something where uh that would not be the case that if if you saw that the the moon was somehow afflicted that you would say well in that case maybe maybe don't do what you were planning well yeah and so there's also a way to work with I mean so earlier this year we had the moon um when Mars and Saturn were conjunct in tropical Aries um it was also during the time of year where that was in the dark moon phase so when the moon was transiting Aries and transiting Mars and Saturn in the dark moon phase that's a like a afflicted moon dark moon angry moon not happy um I weeded and killed and I like I just weeded and killed plants for two days and I have that many plants that I have you know like I was I was cutting honeysuckle and pulling garlic mustard and pulling couch grass um great time to kill stuff right so but then later when the moon was in tropical Taurus sextiling it was conjunct Venus and it was sextiling an exalted Jupiter in tropical cancer that was a beautiful time to plant trees so it's like looking at the moon in that way that's like the more fine tuned like when the moon is happy when the moon is sad cause you could have I mean like just the basic like moon going through the signs you could have the moon in in Taurus and it being afflicted by by the malefic you know it depends I think that it's also as you were saying the deeper you go with the stuff the more that you can kind of layer in order to try to find these perfect moments when you're looking for something or you know to understand the nuances but then there's also just some some larger pieces that people people can pick up and look at and just kind of well I can I can hold on to that without trying to go too far and then getting themselves so'cause I know I I can speak for myself at times you just kind of uh can get lost in the weeds oh not an intentional pun but um essentially like go too far beyond the the where you just complicate it to such a degree that then you would not move yeah yeah yeah that's the danger is that then you need to just have a certain base where you decide to use this traditional level and this is where I'm going to be at and I will move from there which doesn't mean you can't change that over time but that you don't try to say well now I need to be perfect in all these forms of knowledge because then you probably won't have a garden at all that's that's that's so that's so crucial to remember like that's that's very important um like in a way like don't worry about it at all right just plant uh and and folks make sure that the weather is good make sure you're not planting in a heat wave or you know what I mean tilling when the when the uh when it's raining when it's pouring you know like you gotta be common sense first and then really start off small so that's why I like the easiest level simple level just do plant when the moon is in a water sign or Taurus you know and that's just that's simple easy it's gonna be good no matter it's gonna be fine uh what I'm doing I'm just like I'm obsessed with it so so I like I can't help myself you know and I'm also like currently planting a lot of trees um so like with the training with with Christopher Warnock for making talismans talismans are incredibly complex to to to elect so like learning how to elect those electing trees is like a little bit easier it's still very complex but it's like it's kind of it's fun for me to do so that's why I'm doing it but I would definitely not recommend just do just do the the moon and the signs that's fine that's all you need to do if you and don't let that don't let how complex I'm getting deter you because it can definitely it can be way too much and definitely cause analysis paralysis for sure yes I think that there is that that balance between uh one of my permaculture teachers I'm sure this is old folklore but I always think of it in his voice where he just basically said well the best someone asked what is the best day to to prune and he said well when your tools are sharp and that's also kind of what it is is when we do all of these things to get our timing correct but then we also do it when the other aspects of life and the world make it so and you have a tiny little section on how omens kind of outrank all of this and I was very intrigued by that little two pages in your book and I I was just curious if you could explain to people what you mean by that yeah yeah so I was I was working with with freedom my my my teacher my jothish teacher um and we were we were you know he's translating this bit from Kali Prakashika and we're going over the things um and by the way shout out to freedom he's an amazing Vedic astrology teacher if anybody wants to like get in depth into Vedic astrology I highly recommend the science of light program so we were getting into it it's like we're getting like with the full complex election or mahurta from Kali Prakashika it's really complex I was looking through you know best times to plant a fruit tree years years and years and like there's not one exactly perfect time right where all of the rules are satisfied right I did find a few ones uh that were really cool and and I and I I have found some more since then but they're they're a perfect election is pretty impossible you know a completely perfect election is almost entirely impossible but a good enough election is possible and so it's like kind of wait seeing what the weights are but as we were working through this um I I the the wording I was using he was like you should you should be a little bit chill with that basically and I was like like it's not gonna be the end of the world if they don't you know you know do all that and it's like actually also like this this is this is if the more the the omens are as important um and so if like you you have this perfect election and you go up plant your trees but then like you know you have like a a crow attack you you know when you're planting these trees like okay there's there's a Saturn thing that I didn't I didn't notice about the selection or you know this is not really the right time um and and um there there's a story freedom sent me this story from the this this this book about a Frenchman's travels through the Mughal Empire and um you know all the kings had their court astrologers and the astrologer picked the right time to plant the trees uh for the royal Orchard and the gardener had dug up all these these uh these holes to plant the trees in and amended them for the particular trees cause each tree needs its particular amendments right and uh the astrologer was like oh now's the time to plant it you've got to plant it with your own hands so they they went out and the king planted the trees with his own hand the gardener comes back half drunk and he's like you planted the trees in the wrong holes right so I don't care what this astrologer said that's the all the wrong place yeah so that's obviously a bad omen too you know um but you have to you have to have the practicalities first um and then if you're interested in the elections that's important too um but also it's like pay attention to what's going on around you if you've planted something and then you get a call you get some really bad news on the phone a text that saying like hey I got into an accident bad omen right but if you get a a text you plan this train you get a text saying oh hey I forgot to send you this hundred dollars here it is it's like hey that's great you know that's a good omen so that's like the basic level omen that I that I'm working with and you know the the practice of omen reading is especially in the the vedic sphere is like highly complex and very interesting um and there there's you know there's if you go into like brihot samyeta there's all these which direction birds are flying and all that kind of stuff which is a lot of fun um but simple just pay attention to to what's going on is it a good thing or a bad thing when you're doing the thing and that's a little bit of a clue so so in connection to that is I think you and I both completely agree on that that's for sure have you ever had times where specific plants or certain things that you're attempting to do within the the garden or within your your land do not flourish in a way and you find that there was something that was I'm not just gonna say like oh it was because I planted it at the wrong time but if there is something that is not going well that you will then layer any type of like magical operation or changes to what you're doing in essence to try to correct for something that you're seeing show up as like not going well in the garden like do you look at sort of how the omens are going how the plants are going as a form of communication of like what should be done differently next time or something that you need to uh amend in some way most of the time it's really just on a physical practical level it's like are the you know like my blueberries are getting yellow I need to add some acid I need to add some sulfur right um this plant isn't doing well in that spot there's too much water in this spot this needs more well drained soil communicate are that's like literally that is communicating with the plant the plant is giving you a message saying hey there's something wrong here and that's the other thing with the place that we're going it's like where's the separation between the magical and the non magical when you're living in a in a in a world full of conscious beings you know it's there's not so much of a dividing line so is the is the plant with the yellow leaves is that a form of divination like you have to read the signs you know like oh that's that I know what that's saying it's saying it it the pH is wrong and be kind of a cult if you don't know that that's what it means though you could consider if you haven't done your research yet then yes and and that is another thing that I try to like be aware of too is like sometimes I feel like I'm getting too woo and like you have to have a good balance between the woo and the the the non woo the practical you have to like you know to to be a good gardener you know you you have to know what how plants grow what the diseases are and sometimes I you know and I don't want to get to the point where I I mean I and I and this has happened to me too where it's like I'll I'll I'll read into it too much of a magical thing explanation for it when it really is just a like pH thing um and here I'm making the dividing line more but it's funny I'm trying not to and yet there haha yeah yeah um but you know I do my my style of of permaculture design is is is sort of very different than than than a lot of permaculturalists and and I don't know if I would I don't I don't know if I consider myself a permaculturalist anymore or if it's just like that it's like I'm I I was certainly trained in this system and I use a lot of the techniques and I'm you know in mindset um but like I'm a gardener you know and like my gardening style has a because I am also kind of this ADHD kind of guy you know I have a lot of influences from from different things um but for me it's a very like it's an art for me it's a feeling thing it's a pain it's like walking in the garden and like feeling out and envisioning what this plant is gonna look like in 20 years you know what is this gonna be a big tree where it's gonna go like this envisioning and feeling it to me is a very important part of my design process and I'm also I mean I'm not doing like this is my personal garden I'm not like um designing somebody else's that needs to be you know I'm I'm feeling it out for myself and so for me it's it's very like uh in a way intuitive where I'm but I'm I'm also using all of my intellectual faculties I'm you know what what kind of soil this plant likes what kind of how much light it needs uh what functions it's filling etcetera um it's all these things are going on and then also the astrological it's like kind of like all these you know it's all part of the same process that at a certain point you know once these things are internalized there's an intuitive level that that develops where you're like you're feeling it you know and so there's that's kind of like my main way like that's how I relate with my garden it's a it's this art it's this living art cocreating process uh that's the garden for me so ha ha ha yeah total sense because then once it of course that's the that's the trick there is that if you don't have the technical underpinnings then it doesn't become an art as with any art because you're still so worried about the technique so it's that internalization of the technique to such a degree that it can become of like part of your intuition because it just becomes another way that you take in information and express it out but that only comes with the training and the getting pieces in place first so yeah like you need to practice your your violin exactly so part of that technique that that yeah right right that's beautiful um so when you you at the towards the close of the book you give a phenomenally wonderfully laid out uh explanation of of actually how to create this garden I love step by steps I'm an exercise person in the sense that I do appreciate good clear instructions so so thank you for that in the book and for those who are going to go and read it you will see what I mean um you of course I'm sure one of the things that you have in mind for people when they read this book is to be inspired to create their own is there anything else about you know people's experience of reading this book that you hope that they take away from it do you know what I mean yeah yes and so I guess one thing is that yeah I do hope people make more Zodiac Gardens and part of the the the goal of this book is to inspire other people to do it and to to show an example to to you know make this this technique available for people and then they can do it however they want to they can use whatever style chart whatever plants what you know these are all gonna depend if you're more of an herbalist you're gonna might be using more of the the zodiac the zodiacal human way of relating plants if you're more of a magical practitioner you might be more of using more of this magical way of associating plants etcetera um but for me really the other crucial thing is to it's like the the Zodiac Garden is a a way of uh understand of of of learning about how every all of these things are relating and so that's kind of the other you don't have to build a zodiac garden to to to get something out of the book the Zodiac garden is this is this teaching tool as well in order to understand how the plants and the planets and humans are related uh and and and to to to to really understand these these patterns um which I think are crucial to you have to internalize these like in the same way with the gardening it's like in the same with permaculture like we have different they're like thinking tools you know like we we we we think about the um the the the the contour of the land you know like and measuring the contour and and and making sure that the contour is you're working with water and with contour and with earth in the right way like you have to have this principle you have to understand the principle of contour what is contour and it amazes me sometimes too cause I've been working with contour for so long they're like I'll see people laying out their gardens they're just like you know um that plant with no no yeah it's like they're not conscious of contour at all they they're not paying attention to it at all and and and that's what I see a lot too with with people working with with plants and plants sometimes these days is like they just don't understand these these like concepts these principles that if you understand those then everything else just makes sense and so I that that's sort of the other the the other main goal is to like um I'm using the Zodiac Garden as a way to uh demonstrate and explicate or elaborate on these core principles that's very fundamental and I I think that comes through beautifully in the book so so thank you for that now uh I want to tell people what where obviously there will be everything in the show notes but you also have a conference coming up and I think that this episode will come out before then I'm pretty so can you tell people about that I am so sad I can't be there this year but I have been there in the past and it's awesome so maybe tell people about that and anything else that you wanna let people know about yeah yeah um and it was awesome to meet you in person um at the at previous plant cutting conferences and hope hopefully we'll have you back again soon um and so we have this conference in Central New York where AC and I live up in our gardens um in our you can call it gardens you can call it a farm it's an herb farm I don't know it's not really a farm farm it's a we do grow ashwagandha and we do have some some crops that we grow but um it's more of a garden um and so we have this this conference it's gonna be July 24th through 26th this year um at our at our at our at our small farm in Central New York and we have some of the the premier herbalism teachers in the region um as well as astrologers and magicians so um we have seven song and Tammy Sweet and Kate Gildea who are all gonna be speaking who are some really excellent herbalists and you know KK Lee is gonna be talking about um flower essences which are working with more of the subtle energies of of flowers and herbs um and seven songs gonna be more of like you know the scientific stuff we also have like Lisa Fazio who is an amazing teacher of Italian folk medicine and magic which are connected very I mean so just like one fast they're too fast of the same thing you know um but she's gonna be teaching a class on apotropaic magic where everyone will walk away with their own amulet um we have Zamboni Funk coming who's an amazing astrologer um you know we've got a lot of really great classes that are kind of in you know this this year is a little bit more herbalism heavy but we do have like the astrology and the magic and the spirituality as well Trista Hagerty is is an amazing teacher of of of spirituality will be here too um so so yeah so it's gonna be a great time to like meet the other plant people um in if you're if you're if you're around it'll be it'll be a great time so I hope to if if you're interested you can just go to Plant Cunning conference.com or Plant cunning dot com both go to the same place and you'll see like the full list of speakers and and and so on yeah it is if people have not been I I would absolutely be there if I was gonna be in town there my husband and I would be there 100% so I I strongly encourage everyone to look at that and if you are especially if you're on the East Coast there's no excuse you should just you should just go so yeah that is wonderful and thank you so much is there anything any other piece of wisdom you wanna like leave people with before before we end I like to always leave room for if there's something the way I put it is that sometimes I feel like there's a thing that I have to keep repeating to people or it's like a thought that keeps occurring that I'm I've been sharing often or could be related to your book could be totally separate from anything we've been talking about yeah I guess I I feel like I repeated some of the stuff a lot from different ways but one thing that I would like to to to to say and and this is something I didn't really talk about when we were talking about the zodiacs but you know I see different magical systems in general um but also specifically astrological systems as languages there are these languages for relating with the cosmos um and if we want to talk about astrology as divination um one way of of of saying that would be like you know in order to be like a true astrologer will be internalizing a system of astrology for many years and by internalizing that system then the universe they can understand what the universe is trying to tell them right um but and and some people will be like what which zodiac is the right one you know it's like you know which which which language is the right one you know can you can you talk about can you talk you know so we have we have like a a a a Norway spruce tree you know I'm calling it a Norway spruce tree using the English language there's a a native well I'm sure there's in in maybe there's a Sami language name for that tree um if you're a Japanese person you might have a different name for that German might have a different name for that there's many many different languages in the world you can all talk about the same tree using a different language right none of those languages are wrong you know like no no system of astrology is wrong um what I will say though is there are some system there are some systems of astrology that are more complex and so you can understand more of what the universe is saying you know what I mean and and so the more the more there's more there's a bigger vocabulary in a certain way you know what I'm saying so but there's no system that's wrong and I see it as like the coherent systems so like when I'm working with Vega Astrology there's a coherent system using the siderial zodiac and the whole sign houses and and the dishaz and so on you know and you know there's a coherence an internal coherence to the language you know if you start using all these different language different words from different languages to somebody you're gonna sound incoherent you're not gonna be able to communicate so that's like another thing that I that I you like to to talk about when I'm talking about different zodiacs and language but also art you know these are these are another way of seeing is like different ways of of of creating art so you know you can make a painting of this tree um or a person uh using oil paints and you can make a a a painting of of a of a of this tree or or of a person using watercolors you can also make a sculpture with clay or with stone you know you could make a crayon drawing um you can make a charcoal you know each of these different mediums uh has different techniques associated with it too you know you're not gonna use the same techniques you use in an oil painting as with a watercolor painting but you can still make a a piece of art that captures the essence of a person like with poetry too it's like um you can write poetry about the same about the same person in these different languages you can translate poetry but sometimes you know you can't so that that's partially why I've been studying so in depth into the Vedic astrology lineage cause it's this really deep coherent system um and all I guess also I would like to say if anybody wants to get an astrology reading with me you can email me at ask Isaac hill at Gmail dot com a s k I s a a C it's two A's a lot of people say it's two S's and one a but it's two A's and one s Isaac Hill at Gmail dot com ask Isaac Hill at Gmail dot com um and and yeah so yeah that's a I guess I don't know if that's wisdom but it's just it's a way of of looking at different systems of astrology not being like that's wrong that one's right they're all right depending on you know how you're using them and you can have a really good astrologer from any different system you know cause they've developed that system to a good degree so yeah it would be as and to to I really like the the association with with uh between divination and all these different systems and language is one that I completely agree with and also with art because it would be as ridiculous as saying well the poetry is the right art to describe the beauty of a sunset it's like really what about the others haha there are there are many paths and many ways of getting to that so so thank you for that I think that's a wonderful thing to close on and I will look forward to cause clearly there's so many other paths we could have gone down with this conversation so I will look forward to many more conversations um with you and yeah thank you so much for your time well thank you very much and I look forward to having you on our show again soon to talk about your new book so that's true congratulations on that