The Women's Running Podcast

Ep 6. Emma Kirk Odunubi, coach, Under Armour runner and shoe geek

August 06, 2020 Esther Newman Season 1 Episode 6
The Women's Running Podcast
Ep 6. Emma Kirk Odunubi, coach, Under Armour runner and shoe geek
Chapters
The Women's Running Podcast
Ep 6. Emma Kirk Odunubi, coach, Under Armour runner and shoe geek
Aug 06, 2020 Season 1 Episode 6
Esther Newman

Emma knows everything there is to know about running shoes: she's a total running shoe nerd and has put in the hours: she's worked in the running industry for over 10 years and is a sports scientist to boot. But where many of you will know her from is Instagram as @emmakirkyo, where her brilliant videos on shoe lacing had me hooked from the start. And that's not to mention the drills, the strength training, and the general no-nonsense, smart attitude to running fitness. And in terms of running, hers is awe-inspiring: from running 100 metres in ski boots to marathons all over the place, she certainly has the creds. She's been through it too, and talks candidly here about struggling with her grief after the death of her dad, and how she used sport as a crutch during that time. Her passion for sport and running is palpable - listen in to be inspired... And to find out what shoes you should buy if you can't get to the shops!

Show Notes Transcript

Emma knows everything there is to know about running shoes: she's a total running shoe nerd and has put in the hours: she's worked in the running industry for over 10 years and is a sports scientist to boot. But where many of you will know her from is Instagram as @emmakirkyo, where her brilliant videos on shoe lacing had me hooked from the start. And that's not to mention the drills, the strength training, and the general no-nonsense, smart attitude to running fitness. And in terms of running, hers is awe-inspiring: from running 100 metres in ski boots to marathons all over the place, she certainly has the creds. She's been through it too, and talks candidly here about struggling with her grief after the death of her dad, and how she used sport as a crutch during that time. Her passion for sport and running is palpable - listen in to be inspired... And to find out what shoes you should buy if you can't get to the shops!

Unknown Speaker :

Hello, welcome to episode six of the women's running podcast. In this episode I talked to Mr. Kirk Aiden Eb, one of the growing number of Instagram stars. But while others on the grandmas style and no substance Emma's feed is full of practical advice, from running drills to shoe guides, she should be your number one follow if you've just started running. And frankly even if you've been doing it a while has stuff and how to lace your shoes is a little bit mind blowing. In this we chat about shoes, she really knows her shoes. If you want to know what you should be buying if you can't get to a physical shop then she's got the best advice right here. We also talk about her incredible fitness achievements from her Guinness World Record for running 100 metres in ski boots to thrashing 24 hours of burpees non stop Emma is a force to be reckoned with. And yet at the same time, she's so lovely and so encouraging of newbies. She doesn't want any of us to compare our efforts with others and we thoroughly agree with that sentiment. She also talks about what she's missing on lockdown, and yes, it's crazy gym classes, but it's also brunch with her mates. We like this woman a lot. Have you got the latest copy of women's running. If you're missing it, the easiest way to get hold of a copy is to go to our online shop at shop dot women's running co.uk or you could get it delivered direct to your door every month by subscribing. If you prefer instant access then digital is for you. You can buy the digital edition at pocket mag comm or download the app to your phone or tablet via your app store and you can read it straight away wherever you are. For all the different ways to read the magazine, go to shop dot women's running.co.uk I feel a bit kind of fangirly because I see on Instagram time, and this is the first time I spoke a bit like I'm seeing a TV star. You just you do so much on Instagram at the moment. Do you enjoy that medium? Yeah, I kind of I started Instagram when I was using it for just training diary. Basically back when Instagram started like eight, nine years ago, and then realised that with the knowledge and the stuff that I had, I could help people. And then I'd say probably it became what it is today, probably about a year ago, a year two years ago, I started actually sharing kind of weather information and trainer reviews and then sort of s&c stuff and it kind of just built from there. And then I suppose locked down with all the extra free time we had. I just thought you know what, I can't just, there's only so much Netflix, you can watch. So I just started making content and yeah, basically asking people what they wanted What they're searching for because so many runners would kind of appearing out of nowhere so yeah not first have quite a grown ridiculously in the last three months. And so I'm going to go back to the beginning because I've not I've not really introduced you and which I will do when I'm kind of you know, proper professional, you will have a proper introduction. And but I've just been like Google stalking you and sorry, and and I've just got a list of all the stuff that you do that seems to be kind of on your current CV and there's massive So, um, as a bit of a snapshot, I know from your website, that you're a runner which is helpful for us, and that you're also a CrossFit fanatic and strength and conditioning coach, your trainer, track life, London, I think, and a level one British weightlifting coach, which I think is really amazing. And you're I know that you're an ambassador for Under Armour There was once I saw you doing some strength and conditioning work and you're wearing a jacket, I have another Oh, I have this really, really cool gear. And so I'm sure there's loads more that I've missed out. And there but I'm just to begin with how did you get into this app? So I think I think that the other day because I kind of, I always loved sports since I was a kid for four years old when I when I was four, I want to be Olympian. That was what I wanted to do. And obviously, without knowing the whole background for it, but from that point on any sports club that I could join, I would do, I trust her own country, both two young, one, five, and then slowly, slowly kind of tried everything from trampolining to table tennis, football, you name it, I tried it basically and then went to uni did SPORT SCIENCE just love sport and ball that was a natural progression and found my way, using my lot of trainers and training and sort of fell into going down the strength conditioning route. I think the background i'd anticipated are going to be more trainers for a longer period of time. And then I realised that obviously fitness and running was a massive passion of mine. And I must be doing a disservice to myself if I didn't follow that through and then share that with other people. So yes, still a lot of trainers still love everything about sort of footwear and biomechanics that nicely ties in with what I already kind of do in terms of fitness coaching everything else. So yeah, I kind of been given loads of different piles of kind of what I did as a kid and I quite suppose I'm still doing it now. So and see, tell me about your experience of school. I mean, it's a it's such a big question that I ask everyone really because everyone does such a kind of, you know, a wealth of experience. And and people get into sport because they have Either really loved their experience at school or they didn't so and what was yours like? So Primary School for me, I don't remember too vividly. But what I know is that I love pee, I live to pee, and whatever it was those old school gymnastics equipment used to play in the halls, and like climb in and out of all of them thought that was amazing. I remember days when we used to get like foosball coming in. And this is something new. So primary school was just like, the fun side of T which I think sports should be always now anyway. And then secondary school, I kind of still built on that joy of it. And also because at that point, I started to beat the boys or something. So my first main I suppose you could say athletic ability was when I was in your eighth or 1314 years old, and we were doing athletic and we're doing discus and I picked up a discus and basically threw it first. My teacher was an Exactly. She's a high jumper. She was like energy that's coming down the track. Let me introduce you to someone. So then I got introduced to my local track in Brighton. And yeah, from that point on, I proved discussing the shotput for nylon seven, eight years and competed at county level national competitions, my county, one county champs in that stuff. So that kind of, I'd say my first proper foray into going a little bit more, actually. But in terms of back to school, I'd say that was it really. And then obviously, as a girl growing up, it's kind of not cool to like school and everyone was like, forget their peak and things like that. And for me growing up, that was the thing I always remembered. So I was always with my PE kit. I'd always say theosophical clubs, the net balls across countries Atlas it. Yeah, I was kind of the teacher's pet of the T department. They could if they needed anyone to do anything. They're like, Oh no, we've got some indoor cricket fans. Like Sure. We need a goalkeeper for hockey you want to jump in? Sure. So that that was kind of my experience and how I then ended up going into GCSE. I chose PE, a level I chose PE. So yeah, for me it was a love all the way through, but also the benefit of kind of being better than from the boys problem with quantum. Was it? Was it because you talk about, like your peers being a bit I forgot my pk. And it's something that I remember a lot at school and it was it every negative experience. Did you ever get any kind of negativity from your peers at that time? No, I can think of people just sort of knew me as the sporty kid. So it was never sort of frowned upon or anything like that, obviously, yes, it goes through a phase when you're a teenager and girls like who don't wanna get sweaty and I was like, Yeah, I just enjoy running. It was just who I was. And I wasn't about to change that for anyone or anything. So I think I kind of if I didn't even know that they were noisier I just like okay, if you're not my people, that's fine. Yeah, I didn't really let affect me sport was always the one thing. Even at primary school, there was a point when I was learning to play clarinet. And it got to a point where they move the lesson time to same time. He can't do it. So, obviously it kind of overshadowed a lot of things. You never know could have been a world class characters work but yeah, yeah. So um, so then you went to university you studied you studied sport at university. And so what happened? What was that experience like and what happened next. So university, I went to Bruno, but London really, really great sporting University. In terms of kind of the course that was taught but also the athletes I was able to surround myself with. So that was when I was still very focused on my throwing, and through now had an indoor athletic centre. They also had massive outdoor facilities as well and I was very fortunate to train with what often come in GB athletes. So Linford Christie had his group that Bruno that trained at the weekends. Usain Bolt used to come to Bruno in the summer and do some of his summer training around campus. So, we just had that sort of calibre of athlete wanting to come to our university, which was amazing. Actually, Brian, who got Commonwealth silver medal, Katelyn, I used to train with him for a couple of years, actually, because I was part of the multi events group and my throwing so I would see how they train and be with me six days a week. And then on the flip side to that, I also then took network very seriously when I was at university, the netball team at Bruno there were 17. And throughout those seven teams, we kind of had a mix all the way from kind of top Premier League, all the way down to sort of faster league. So it was a real vast group of people, but along with that we trained four or five times a week. So, combined with athletics there were times when I was training seven to eight times a week, just for the pure love of it. But yeah, I did definitely overtrained during that period of time. I had to rein that back in a few times when I got injured because yeah, I was pushing my body too much even though I was enjoying it and loving it. That was when I realised, you know what, I'm not superhuman, and the injuries came up and things like that. So yeah, completed University. And along during that time, between I think it was my second and third year was when I started working at Nike. And I work from a woman's law, so the big Nike town council circus, and I have to say to this day, it was one of the most incredible group of people I've ever worked with. So diverse, all different backgrounds. And it was just yeah, it was one of the best communities of people I'd had the pleasure of working with a nova learn so much. And yeah, did you Topic selling with footwear and clothing. Also, they had gait analysis there as well, which is we'll see running analysis and they kind of didn't use it too much. But with my background from kind of doing gait analysis back in Brighton when I was 13 through two before I went to university, and just as a part time job and through the summer, but it always is something that would run consistent with me. So when I saw it, I kind of jumped at the chance to be able to utilise it in that space. And, yeah, one day it just got to a point. And I think I just graduated at this point. And my boss said, Look, I don't think we're going to be going much further with the gait analysis right now in store going a different direction. And I at that point, she was like look, genuinely for you like handled, how I think you need to go away and grow and, and do what you need to do, which was amazing to have someone say that to me, and be honest as well. And then from that point, I then ended up working perfect, which is the biomechanics. gait analysis lab I suppose the simplest way you can call it but on the high street people. So that was sort of how my university years then went into everyday life I suppose. So, too, can we talk about your running a little bit and so I want to know what your favourite kind of running is and what kind of training you do during the week. And what your favourite sort of running is. So for me running in general, I started running I always been running as such obviously before different sports I did and everything but purely just running, actually started using it. Just a mental headspace to start with. That was where I kind of went to after I left University. I was like, I haven't got that community of people, group of people what can I do have got the availability of space and everything else that comes with having the luxury of an indoor track and everything else. So I thought what can I do? Put on shoes Cycling shoes, went out the door and just kind of clarity headspace and that's how I fell in love with that, that running. At the time, especially after university, I was battling with a little bit of grief because my dad passed away in my first year of university. So when I left that uni bubble, I came out of it and was like, okay, everything sort of hit me and I was into reality again, my main way of coping was by running so that gave me that sort of endorphins that headspace to think and process so that's where my first thought was you for running came from and then from there, I just loved the competitive nature of it myself. I just love the challenge of it. So I was then doing my first 10 k which was remember the we own the night series that night we did yeah. So that was my first ever 10 K I barely trained for it. I just thought I'm gonna do a 10 K and I think I did it in like still came in on the hour just I was broken human. Like, I love it, so good. So I love that challenge. And then up and around 10 Ks Ha. I just fell in love with the process of learning how to get better on faster and combined with the fact that I love strength training as well. I knew that it was a massive part fact that I have a fairly strong at the time and then putting that into the running on the road. So I still say my favourite distances are probably between 10 K and half I quite like a 10 miler, which I did once before the Great South run. That was a really nice distance to run. I really enjoyed that. So I say that's probably my favourite, but then obviously, I can't deny that I don't enjoy American. I love the process of it. I love the build up. And then obviously race day when you sort of tackle and take on everything that you sort of put towards those last few weeks. And so yeah, I'd say probably between 10 K and half but I do a lot of American as well. So what's been your worst race and what's been your Your favourite. My worst race, probably Brighton marathon in Whoo. I want to say 2017 or 2018. My been 2018 when we had that massive heatwave over April for a long period of time. And even the day before black American, I remember picking up my number, and they said to us pay, don't worry is gonna be 16 degrees tomorrow, we've seen the temperatures might go up a little bit, but it's all going to be fine. And I was like, okay, fine, it's all going to be great. Got to race day woke up in the morning 23 degrees was predicted. And it was that year when, during when the long run would have been so like the three weeks prior, we'd had snow on the ground. So it was about three, four degrees that we'd all done our long distances and then everything else Three weeks later 23 degrees. So I remember setting off and I was like okay, I'm fine. And I don't know if you've done all over the broken course you go round them hilly area nine 13 miles out down the coast and then you come back through along the seafront into the city and out through their tails. Like a few rolling hills, we can do this. turn the corner and I kid you not hit mar 16 and just felt everything felt the he felt the humidity as well. And yeah, it was one of the hardest races I've ever done. I got to mile 24. And one of my friends Laura, she was on the side lines and she basically just came on board onto the front alongside it was like you got to keep going. You have to keep going. And I was at this point, like, doubled over like holding my stomach. I was like I'm done. I'm done. The irony of the whole thing is when I did cross line, I still ended up with a two minute PB. It just was the irony. It was like my most painful race ever, but I still was about to the PB. So for me, I think I still have unfinished business with American Christians. Right and I didn't want other which actually was my favourite with London. And ironically, London was my first time ever, but I enjoyed it more than ever. And I think it was, as I was saying before because of the process of the marathon and the journey. So when I got my place at London, I just well been recovering from a labral tear in my left hip quite severely and end up having surgery for it but couldn't walk for three, four weeks when it initially happened and could barely run. But when I got my entry to say that I got through it, and with the help of the incredible Jocelyn Thompson rule working her on my my programming for me to build up to that roof. I feel like I needed someone to to direct me through and make sure and keep me accountable for doing the rehab work still and slowly building up because I knew I was like, so that was, for me the biggest journey and just being able to get to that start line on race days. A feat in itself. Again, of course it was boiling hot. And that was just seemed how I run marathons these days. I've never had a cold one so. And yeah, I loved every minute of it London, it just is that vibe that everyone talks about. It's just, it's incredible. And I remember crossing that line just went to five hours, didn't care about the time I was just like, can't believe I've done it. I've overcome something that could have completely ended my writing career. And now I feel on top of the world, so for me, that was definitely the Crimson the crime of races. As I said, I think I've got unfinished business for the marathon. So it was gonna be 2020 to 2021, for now, to take on another. So what are your plans? Like post lockdown in an ideal world? Would is that what you'd be heading for next would be would it be London? 21. Yeah, in a dream world. I think that's that's why I'd want to try and do I might even defeat my demons and tackle box and again, just because maybe I want to have You know, go back and conquer it and not have the memories because brightens my hometown as well. So it kind of every time I think about that race, I'm like, but yeah, in a dream world, I think it would probably be London just because I absolutely loved it. Or I did look at where was I looking, I want to say Barcelona marathon as well, because I've heard good things about that course. So that was also contemplating. But again, weather for me is a big one, because my body just takes the heat. So yes, it was all resting on that. I do also have potential other idea to do another charity event. And because this year is five years since I did my 24 hours of burpees cancer research. Yeah, I was gonna go I was gonna I was going to try and think of a way to commemorate that or do something again to raise money. So that was another thing in the back of my mind for this year. And let's well I had all these other questions. about stuff. But let's let's talk about burpees because you've mentioned them. So I was reading on your on your blog about how you did this as something in your father's memory and that you decided to do take on 24 hours of burpees. And so that sounds really really bad. So, can you explain why you decided to do that? Precisely and and what that was like? Totally so my my thinking behind it was the reason I want to do a 24 hour challenge specifically was that obviously when when people suffer are diagnosed with cancer, you can't just, you know, switch off and be like, Okay, I'm done with it. So 24 hours a mean, kind of represented the people who have come to have to deal about 24 hours a day constantly. And then because obviously, it's it's one of the hardest things I think anyone could possibly go through. Is I true the movement, which is probably one of the hardest that people talk about in fitness, which is a burpee. So That's that's where the idea came from. It was just combining those two things and then obviously looking back I'm like, why did I think that was? I just figured why not? Let's do that. But it Yeah, there was there was playful method behind that. That idea of it. Um, yeah, it was something I will definitely never forget. And I mean, as kind of the formative reason for this was overcoming or, or talking about your grief and, and you speak really candidly about that on your website. I thought it was a really beautiful piece that you wrote. And but you also talked about how you used exercise as a coping mechanism. And can you can you explain how that worked? Yeah, definitely. So when I left university that was kind of the main time when grief hit me I feel like when I was at university because I had friends surrounding me I had all these new experiences and everything else and it just turned 19 and was just In the wide world of learning everything, so I think those three years I was just in a bubble. And I didn't really think that kind of he died really in my head. I hadn't acknowledged it. And I didn't really visit home too much either. So I wasn't very aware of what happens that when I left University went and moved into live on my own for a short period of time, and that's when everything hit me. So drastically cutting out there didn't want girls birds, to really be able to eat properly, all those kind of things, and I was just sort of spiralling down and just into my own head. And I knew that fitness for me was always something that brought me happiness. So by adding that running, or training, whatever it was, I knew that if I had that set in my day, that was something to kind of tick off and say that was a success. So mentally by going right if I can do that exercise that success if I can get that little bit stronger, that little bit faster, that's going to be a tick. And that would then boost my moods. And then I'd be able to think about right for the next day. Okay, let's see how I feel. If I can do one more thing, that's something else. And for me, I just use that as a mechanism to be able to go, right, I can get through that next day, because I know I've got that plan I can get through that next day. And that's how, when it was worth, I kind of made my way through. Don't get me wrong with that. It didn't come from some injury because I then got to the point where I relied on it so much. I was like a train, train, train, train, train, and that's all I did. I kind of tried to train my way through it. And then also realise that wasn't the right answer to so for me, it was finding that balance between it and also enabling me to then process what my head was trying to process at the same time. And exercise gave me that has been so to me, it's one of the most difficult times of my life probably the most, but I learned so much about myself and The power of fitness and running, especially running how that made a huge difference? Well, I think loads of us use exercise as a way in which we can kind of compartmentalise our life, you know, you don't have to think about stuff while you're doing the thing that you're doing. And but at what point, does that coping mechanism become a sort of controlling issue? Did you experience that? Definitely. And I think that it got to a point sometimes where I'd almost forget about social situations and things that say, events, or things that were happening because I was like, No, no, I've got to do that fitness thing. Or there were points where I got obsessive with my foods, and I kind of use that as a way to be able to control because that's what I can control. I can control maybe the emotions and the thoughts in my head. I can control a and control what I did that applies. And yet, you're right, it becomes sort of a latch on mechanism that I could have the control Because there were other areas of my life that I didn't have control. And so it can be difficult. And I think it's definitely acknowledging it. And I also had like a very good core group for running friends around me who would also acknowledge it and be like, Hey, did you do that and that the other day and have you done x y, Zed, but having that good group of friends around you being like, hang on a minute, you might be doing too much, or people just checking in and being like, hey, just come to thing. I don't see what you're doing. That sort of stuff just sort of level. Level your mind a little bit as well. And the one thing one thing I really wanted to talk to you about was shoes because you're a massive shoe nerd. If you don't mind me saying I am. And I think one of the first videos I saw a review that made me follow you in the first place was you were doing some lacing tips. And I was like, it was just this revelation. I was like, Oh my God. I've got high end stuff and you're like, here's how you can lace your shoes so they don't hurt your feet and got high end stuff. And I was like, What? This blows my mind. So, um, how did you learn about that stuff? Was that through university and and what made you a shoe nerd? So, back when I properly started with footwear, I was literally only 13 years old. I was training at the track at the athletic track and a guy called Pham Lambo and came up to me and said, Does anyone want to have a job? Obviously, 13 years old, yes, me. And he owned a shop called the job shop, which was one of the first sort of specialist retail running shop, possibly in the country. Well over 30 odd years ago now, and I used to go there, work Saturdays, and did that up until I was about, say 1819 and went off to university and they he taught me about looking at foot movement and how to align shoes with foot moves. And he said, different brands coming in talking to us about footwear, and then how that footwear would align with different movements. Very basic, very simple for that kind of when I was a lot younger but then as I started to get older, he got me involved in sort of buying and understanding that buying. I then did my own research and learn about different cushioning heights and things like that and how that affected the feet. And then as I went through university and worked at Nike, I also worked at Runner's world as well. And for different types of feet work for different types of people and I'd say probably my biggest improvement on all my foot when I was definitely came from proof. I was there for just over five years, and started as a running technician for junior technician is what they call it. And basically when I was there, I shadowed a podiatrist for the first three months of my learning so daily would see clients that he would see for issues but problems And then I would also get hands on actually analyse people's feet, look at flexibility, movement of joints. Do full body gait analysis and not just looking at the ankles, look at the ankles and knees and the hips, as well as shoulders and arms and how they all intertwine. so that you understand that when you're focusing on supporting the foot and getting the right shoe for the foot, it doesn't just affect what happened about a foot, back clamp and the knees and the hips and even upper body. So I then learned from there, how cushioning types can affect certain injuries. And it was such a great place to work because we would have continual learning. For example, every Tuesday we'd always sit down for at least an hour and go through the latest research and find some work or injury. We'd have speakers come in, we'd work with chiropractors at Putney Pyro down the road for months, so it was such a hub of learning. We bring shoes up and that's where I learned different lacing techniques. We kind of play around and be like, right what works for this, what works for that, if they've got abundant manuals for this, what can we do to the shoe and it was just such an amazing space to be able to work in because we also had a workshop because we were a all ski running shop. So they did custom ski boots, as well as custom trainers. So I learned how to make optimise insoles to grind them to actually attach foam material and adapt as much as possible to make the custom fit as good as possible. And I think that environment, plus the clientele that I saw, definitely brought me everything that I know today. Like I saw things from children growing up with dyspraxia, so balance issues and problems like that to people that had been in serious car accidents and had massive legs and differences and I needed to make them insoles to help them. So it was such a vast array of people that I saw to try and help their gait and running and an artist that Yeah, that's definitely where I've grasped a lot of my knowledge. And my, I suppose you could say inquisitions always want to learn more and see more and see what's out there. What are the most common mistakes in choosing shoes that runners were making? So the key thing, definitely, it's pretty colour. I have to say it is a classic one people just don't really like the colour of this, I bought it. Okay. Second one, I just want the most expensive shoe, which is the classic people assume because the shoes expensive, it's going to be the best for them. 99% of the time, not always correct. And then another one is not buying a shoe big enough. I'd say they're the top three that I had. And when I say that, most people should have at least a thumbs width off the end of the longest toe between the end of the shoe. That's That's what I'd say is is the ideal. Everyone is different. Some people have a better finger width, but some more finger width is the minimum. You're looking forward to help To prevent against those toenail losses and things like that. And so if if you were advising a new runner who has never bought a pair of running shoes or hasn't bought running shoes for like 10 years, what would you tell them to look out for? So key thing I would be is, if possible, gait analysis, understand how your body moves. And the reason being and I like to use the example of when you go and get a new pair of glasses, your eyes on you don't just buy a pair of glasses because your friends got it and it's exactly the same as theirs, and put them on mixed up to be able to see you go and get tested, you can put it in someone else's hands to sort out what you need. And then when you try the morning, basket as well at the back that works. So it's the same with your feet, you're not going to go all because your mate how's that shoe, I'm going to put it on and it's gonna work great for me. You have to make sure you get analysed and have a look at how it's moving. Now, obviously, I We understand lockdown it's very difficult and shops only just reopening to able to do that I do believe from the independent running stores are opening as well obviously with with restrictions, but if you're not able to do that, my go to advise for people to go go for a stable neutral shoe. Now what that simply is is a neutral shoe where the cushioning is not too soft. Also not too firm. And the main word you'll probably see is responsive, such as responsive, it's going to be helping you to get off the ground as quickly as possible. Once you press enter, so it's going to give you that propulsive energy. That's my be my go to advice for people because no matter what, if you have a shoe that is responsive and propulsive it will help you negate injuries to a degree. Yes, we won't know how you move or anything else but if you're in a neutral responsive shoe, that's one way to kind of go right at least are in a shoe that's going to be looking after your And then once you get to that point where we can go and have a look at an artist and things like that, then you can take that shoe there. And they can have a look and go actually he will write for Well, it wasn't bad, but this is what we think could work for you. So definitely, if you have no clue, just just go down that route. What about what about minimal shoes? I mean, one of our podcast guests has been the lovely Anna Magnus who you might know of running the length of the UK with no shoes on at all. Amazing I know. So maybe there are some people out there who think well actually I fancy running in either minimal shoes or no shoes at all, but how would you advise them? So for me, it's always a question that people throw up in the air like often you don't like it cuz you like shoes so much and it's, it's not I don't like it I've because of how I've worked and who I've worked with I've seen What can happen if you run a minimal shoe too quickly? And the injury that can come from that? But then, yes, I have not seen people that run in shoes that are really bulky and everything else and their feet have no control whatsoever. So, to me, I always say if you're looking to go minimum is a great option in terms of foot strengthening, you have to be patient. And I think it's a lot of runners. In general, when you say, right, I want to take a call, I'm going to do it in two weeks or three weeks, I want to be the best I can be in that timeframe. We always want to do it so quickly. And I think if you're gonna go into minimal shoes from running in a standard style of trainer for so long, you have to be patient with the process because if you do it too quickly, you're going to get injuries, you're going to get cost of knee discomfort and everything else. Yes, don't get me wrong. there's a there's a percentage of people that when they run minimal shoes, they actually feel better than ever before, and they they feel like they can run faster and move better. And that is great. And there are those people out there. But then to flip it. There's also a For people who can't get on with that there's minimal stock shoots. And that's also absolutely fine. Those people can walk in those shoes, you're still going to get the benefits of strengthening your feet, strengthen your lower leg, ankles, etc, just by walking around in them. So don't feel like you have to run. If your body doesn't like it. If it does, and you want to try that, do just build it slowly. And I think that's where I'd give the key advices take your time, there's no rush to build to run really far distance in your machine. And speaking of running in shoes that may not be appropriate for you. And so you said that you were working like this perfect place was more of a kind of a ski shop and, and I read that you got a Guinness World Record while you were there. I noticed too. So can you tell me what that was about and what you were running in as though I was running in a pair of ski Keep up so nerves around there but a pair of atomic backgrounds which were basically a ski Tori. So yeah, I did 100 metre world record in ski boots, which was an experience with it that way my head knew about it the next day. Yeah, they just approached us and we had the boot then I was like, I'll do it. Why not? So? Yeah. Do they weigh? About a kilo? So yeah, when doing the sprint start, I definitely knew about it. And you got a Guinness World Record. Do you have to certificate and everything? I do have the certificate. Actually with me. I still actually have it improve. You need to go and pick it up. But yeah, I had a ticket. And it was it was quite funny because it was one of those things that when I was a kid, my dad always got me to Guinness Book of Records. A Christmas. It was just, oh yeah, always be in that one. I'm always gonna be there. And then when I got it like I'm in it and in the app Book, they actually put a picture of me standing on it in the book. So I could literally say that I was not just my name, but my actual faces as well. So that was a Yeah, a really proud moment. Oh, that's amazing. And the other thing I wants to ask about because I don't know anything about this, I'm sorry about this is tough games. So can you tell me about that? Yes, so tough games came to my attention anyway, a couple years ago, and I think they're not too old of a brand or company and it basically trying to bring the idea of CrossFit which I think people see is very cold tea and very kind of a nice community that they call the portal, but also then bring the fitness industry and people who go to the gym on a daily basis and try and sort of merge them together. And the best way I can describe it is like a big day out of adult pee. That's the best way I can describe it so you can compare your team In the month before, and the first year I did it, I had there was a team of five votes, five women. And ironically, it was held at my own university at Brunel, so we competed against other female teams as well. And it was just one of the funnest days you can imagine, think about pushing sled doing lifting bars like you would in a CrossFit style gym, but then also doing for over running events and carrying a partner all sorts of different things. And you compete on the on the day against each other. So you had like female specific male and then you'd have a mixed team. But you also have two categories. So you'd have an elite category and when you say elite, they're looking at probably like your pts your coaches, people who train day in, day out. But then you also had a really cool everyday category who's just the average person that went to the gym, who enjoyed it, and still wanted to compete in that sort of company. To event so that also took place at the same on the same day at the same time. So it was really great to just say a great celebration of fitness and, and coming together as a community. And it was it for me it's one of the best dates in the calendar. And last year as well, they have something called fittest in the city, which was if you've competed at the turf games, either the summer or the winter because they have to, you would then potentially get an invitation to compete to be one of the fittest in the city. And I was lucky enough to be invited and compete and it was an incredible day, a very tough day. I think in the end winds up doing five events in very quick succession. And yeah, out of 32 I believe I came at both pretty pretty happy with that, considering I had no idea what it was going to be like, but it was just it was just an amazing environment, amazing group of people. Everyone should celebrate fitness and strength, your ability to try and do something, which for me is what fitness is all about bringing people together. Yes. Okay with a bit of competitive edge is always fun but just the idea of having a community around you that's a pool, you will your efforts to try and get stronger to be your best self to meet up with everything that kind of embodies what I try and get other people to do as well.