The Women's Running Podcast

Ep 8. Anna Harding, founder of The Running Channel

September 03, 2020 Esther Newman Season 1 Episode 8
The Women's Running Podcast
Ep 8. Anna Harding, founder of The Running Channel
Chapters
The Women's Running Podcast
Ep 8. Anna Harding, founder of The Running Channel
Sep 03, 2020 Season 1 Episode 8
Esther Newman

In this episode, Esther Newman, editor of Women’s Running, speaks to Anna Harding, the founder of the Running Channel. Anna has gone from non-runner to running expert in a ludicrously quick time. Just a few years ago, she made the leap from couch to marathon, and hasn’t stopped running since. She talks to us here about starting the Running Channel, and supporting a community that she truly loves, as well as how an ex boyfriend prompted her to start running in the first place (by telling her that she couldn’t). She talks about running goals, strength training during lockdown, her love of trail running and hating tempo sessions. She also talks openly about how the trolls in the comments section affected her mental health, and how she has won that personal battle. Find out this, her top tips for ultra recovery (it involves a paddling pool) and what’s in store next for Anna and the Running Channel right here.

Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, Esther Newman, editor of Women’s Running, speaks to Anna Harding, the founder of the Running Channel. Anna has gone from non-runner to running expert in a ludicrously quick time. Just a few years ago, she made the leap from couch to marathon, and hasn’t stopped running since. She talks to us here about starting the Running Channel, and supporting a community that she truly loves, as well as how an ex boyfriend prompted her to start running in the first place (by telling her that she couldn’t). She talks about running goals, strength training during lockdown, her love of trail running and hating tempo sessions. She also talks openly about how the trolls in the comments section affected her mental health, and how she has won that personal battle. Find out this, her top tips for ultra recovery (it involves a paddling pool) and what’s in store next for Anna and the Running Channel right here.

Unknown Speaker :

It's episode eight of the women's running podcast. I'm Esther Newman, editor of women's running and in this episode I speak to Anna Harding, the founder of the running channel. Anna has gone from non runner to the running expert we know love in a ludicrously quick time. Just a few years ago, she made the leap from couch to marathon and hasn't stopped running since. She talks to us here about starting the running channel and starting a community that she truly loves, as well as how an ex boyfriend prompted her to start running in the first place by telling her that she couldn't. She talks about running goals strength training during lockdown her love of trail running and hating tempo sessions. She also talks openly about how the trolls in the comment section affected her mental health and how she has won that personal battle. Find out this her talk Tips for ultra recovery involves a paddling pool. And what's in store next for Anna and the running channel right here. Have you got the latest copy of women's running? If you're missing it, the easiest way to get hold of a copy is to go to our online shop at shop dot women's running.co.uk. Or you could get it delivered direct to your door every month by subscribing. If you prefer instant access, then digital is for you. You can buy the digital [email protected] or download the app to your phone or tablet via your app store and you can read it straightaway wherever you are. For all the different ways to read the magazine, go to shop dot women's running.co.uk really important, you must be important to the world of running at the moment. Yeah, we've just had we've just done a survey for our readership which we do quite often and we were I've only just completely rattled through it. I haven't really looked at everything but one of the questions was, and what runners Do you follow on Instagram, and you cropped up? And not just the running channel, but you? Yes, you you've got quite a lot. Actually, it's been really weird like during lockdown, because I had probably 7000 followers maybe on Instagram and during lockdown, I went well over 10,000 which was always my my personal goal for that because then I can put links like swipe up link to my stories. And so rather than it just being like an arbitrary number, I'm not bothered about the number of followers that I have, but having that feature when we've got links to like videos and blog posts and stuff like super helps. And, and yeah, I've really noticed during lockdown that the numbers have gone up so much so yeah, I think people are desperate for support, aren't they? And yeah, anyway, so um, right well Well, I think right, your job title, I've got it down here as head of content for the running channel. Is that right? Yes. Right. So can you tell me how that came about? And like how you said, because you said stuff as well, didn't you? Yeah, basically. And wow, when. So the story goes, and I was at, I was a journalist working in radio. And I had started running in 2017. So think it was about 2018. And I was working in London, I'd been promoted to news editor at global radio, was working in London. And I kind of took it upon myself to do all of the London Marathon coverage. So I got to media spots I was going to run it was going to be doing all of the coverage for global. And as part of that, I was doing sort of a series of documentaries looking into running and I went along to a press call that Strava put on and they had Joe pay up there. And I got to interview Joe PV which For me, just like huge of so nervous, but she's so lovely, and it, the nerves were misplaced. And so did the interview. And we were chatting about all kinds of different stuff. And then the PR agency that were doing the PR for Strava. At the time, they had representatives there at the press call. And so I got to meet them and chat to them. And the next day, I got a phone call from the founder of the PR company and to say, hey, it's great to meet you. I've got this idea it might be a bit off the wall but what I really want to do is set up a YouTube channel about running and I from that just that sentence was like that would be incredible. Because I know from personal experience of starting money and going couch to marathon which is what I did at the start, that I was just engrossing myself in blogs and magazines and everything that occurred about running because Though I didn't realise there was so much you can learn about it. I said, if there had been sort of a resource like that when I was training, I would have loved it. And I think you've got a really strong idea there. How can I help? Yeah. And he said, Well, you know, it's just an idea at the moment, we need to get it off the ground, you need to have a think about what it looks like. And I said, Well, I'm working the breakfast shift. I was reading the news on hot breakfast at the time. So I was finishing work on radio about lunchtime. So I had three afternoons I said, Oh, well, I can come in help you in the afternoons and do it on the side and whatever. And he said, You know, I'm just kind of thinking more of a permanent thing. To that point, up, to quit my job, my career for 15 years. But at the time, there was a lot of Brexit chat, there was a lot of terrorism. There was a lot of just real negative stuff going on in the news and it was affecting my mental health. It was it had a real impact on May, I just felt really sad and really stressed about my job. And so actually, yes, I did think about it because it was such a big decision to make. But I didn't think about it for very long. And the gut instinct at the time was I've got to do this. So bit the bullet and handed in my notice, and went to what was the very beginning of the running channel, and just spent about three months, coming up with content ideas, speaking to people in the mining space about what they would want from it. Pipe piloting videos, practising being on camera because I'd spent my life behind the microphone and building this content and we eventually press play on the eighth of October 2018. With no subscribers, no followers on social media, um, and went for that. How did you go from there? What happened? So the first day was amazing. We, we have like a digital counter, but that connects to YouTube and it shows you how many subscribers you've got. And I think we probably spent the first couple of hours of that day just watching it. And every time it went up by one or two or three, we're like we had cake to celebrate. And, yeah, I guess we we've gone from sort of building this brand that we hoped people liked to where we are now at nearly 150,000 subscribers with just the most wonderful community. And that's the one thing the biggest thing for me is just seeing runners coming together. It's the same with with all kinds of running groups, isn't it? You know, just whether you're part of a crew or a club or you're in a Facebook group or you read a magazine or you're on Twitter like that that community that running committee That's the buzz word with running and feeling that we've sort of brought people together is Yeah, I just yeah, gives me gives me all the feels. So what what do you think? what what what's the secret to your success? Do you think? I'm okay, so I think it's probably but there's, there's probably a few things I would say. What makes the running channel successful is the fact that we cater for all all runners. Whether you have just started whether you're trying to get faster whether you want to go longer, doesn't matter what your distances doesn't matter what your paces, there's something for everyone on there. We do sort of entertaining content of like challenges. And as well as you know, useful tips that people can can take away and I think having that broad spectrum and being relatable to all, all of the audience can be really good. difficult time. So we publish two videos a week. And one might be how to run a faster half marathon. And that, you know, that won't necessarily appeal to someone who's just finished couch to five K, and we get that but then we'll then make sure that you know, we've got a video coming up. That's the best shoes for beginners. So we know that every video won't appeal to every single person. But what we do try and do is make sure that there is a mix of something for everyone. And I hope that we are as a team representative of the diverse community that we have within the running space. Tell me about your team, who do you have working with you. So we are super fortunate to have an Olympian on our team, which really helps with the faster and the badly is a 1500 metre runner. He is also the parkrun world record holder, and he ran it in 13 is going to kill me if I get this wrong. I'm sure it's 1314 To us, yeah, at Bushy Park. It was on Super Saturday during the London 2012 Olympics. So he had failed to qualify for final. And his coach to pick him up and dust him off at the disappointment took him to Bushy Park to park run clinic with them, obviously the event organisers and stuff because popcorn is not a race. Um, but Andy went down there with his coach. She's coached post him around on the bike, and he broke the record and it still stands. Wow. And so yeah, so it's so we've got Andy, he is our CEO, and is also on screen and he like checks everything that all our content that goes out to make sure that everything's good. He's got great contacts with coaches and physios and all sorts. And we've got Kate Carter. So Kate comes from a background of being a journalist as well. She wrote for The Guardian for a long time and she used to have the really special festival running blog on the Guardian, which was a really popular blog to them freelance after that, and comes in does freelance stuff with us. And so you see Kate on camera, she's what I would call our fast female. And she's unreal. She also holds the world record. So she has the world record for the fastest female in an animal full body animal costume. She's the panda. So you can ponder. She ran London Marathon in a full panda costume in 2019. And she did it in something ridiculous, like three hours and 40 minutes or something. Coast fantastic. And then we also have Rick on the presenting team. So Rick is our kind of like, male counterpart of me like your average runner. He loves to park run, but he also loves a glass of wine on a weekend. He's a new dad and we featured his wife and in one of our videos about running in pregnancy when she was pregnant with their first child. So um, you Yeah, that's that's kind of the team at the moment. We have Tom our videographer as well, who does all the filming and editing. And we have someone who looks after our social media, which is a giant role, and one that we've only just kind of hired because I used to do all of that as well as the filming. And, and we also have a another member of staff who just looks after kind of like the researchy logistics. So we are, I think we're bigger than some people think we are. But I think we're smaller than some people think we are as well. So yeah, it's a good team though. It's an It is like being on a proper team because we're all very sport orientated. So we bring that into work, which is it works well. Are you do you find yourself competitive with them? So competitive? So even even against Dundee? Like sometimes I'm like, Yeah, I can beat you. It's something I'm decaf and we have a really great challenge series that I'm thoroughly enjoying at the moment we launched it during lockdown because obviously we were all filming separately and sort of submitting content to make these videos so we thought well what can we do separate so we have a challenge accepted series where the four of us go head to head on challenges and they do have to be handicaps because of the difference in in abilities across the board. But one of them we did like the Ross Barkley five k where you pause your watch and try and run a five k as fast as you can in in like Sprint's basically Um, and I didn't come last but I did not come first. And then we did girls versus boys against 10 K so it was Kate the fast girl versus me the average girl and versus under the bus male and and Rick the average male and to see who could have the shorter Just combined 10 k time. Sadly the boys beat us. Which we are not happy about, but we will get them back. Well, that'd be a rematch. salutely Absolutely. I am very competitive. I'm not sure if that's coming through right now. And so yeah, yeah, it's all good fun. It's all done in jest. But yeah, it's great to be able to do that, that kind of stuff, but some of my favourite videos that we do. I was gonna ask you about that, but first of all is going to see it See, do I have there been any learning curves from setting up the running channel? Huge learning curves, I think like we have, always strive from the beginning to fail hard and fail fast. So we're not afraid to try something and if it doesn't work, we will work out why it didn't work and figure out how to do it better next time and I think again, from our sort of sporting background in the way that we think about things from a running point of view, you do the same if something doesn't work during a marathon, maybe you took a dodgy gel but didn't agree with you or you set out too fast like you learn constantly. And I think that's really beneficial from the side of building the running channel as well because we are constantly learning what our audience likes, what they don't like. And, and I mean, the biggest learning curve recently for me has been filming. So again, being in lockdown, we were still making videos. And Tom our videographer, he used to do all the filming and all the audio. I can't be with him right now. And so it was kind of like, right, how do we do this? We don't know how long lockdowns going to be on for it obviously ended up being quite a long time. And we're still not back to filming altogether as well because of social distancing. So um, yeah, that's my sort of skill sets gone from Radio and audio to video and yeah. Presenting? Would you have you had any failures? Would you consider any, any of the challenges that you've met along the way? failures? That's a really good question. And, and I can't I don't think so. I don't think we've really, really missed the mark yet. And we're all human. So I'm sure it's bound to happen, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that anything that we've particularly done, has failed. I think what's been really interesting to see is the stuff that hasn't performed as well. And and when we say performed, I mean, like just people showing an interest and watching the videos and stuff. What's been really interesting to see there is that actually the stuff that hasn't performed well as and if we we've showcased like a couple of epic places to go and run. So we did it. We started a series of like, Most beautiful places in the world to run and didn't, didn't perform particularly well. So we've been the format and and we move on. And But yeah, I think overall, it's, we've, we've gone from from strength to strength, and what have been the surprising successes then. So if you haven't had that many failures, the most had loads of successes and what been the best ones. So for me, the thing that blows my tiny little mind every single time is, and this is really hard for me to say because I'm quite, I'm actually quite like self conscious, and I don't have a high opinion of myself, but the stuff that's done the best the videos have been my challenges, things where I've gone and run Brighton marathon was one of our best performing videos for a very long time, and followed by me winning New York Marathon, just probably into the camera Hello emotional icon, and doing just this epic ultra event where I run 260 kilometres around the Azores in six days, again crying about being tired and being injured. And I was on my period which just threw a whole new spanner in the works and being really open and honest about it. And, for me, surprise, it was surprising that people sort of bought into that and cared about that. So that's, that's the most surprising for me, and why do you think they did? Why do you think it was your stuff particularly? No, no. We, um, we get so many really lovely comments on videos and like, I've always felt really awkward using the word inspiring, and I feel I feel like why would anyone be inspired by what I'm doing and but that is a word that comes up so often when people are coming On the video and like it means the world to me, but it's still kind of something that's a bit like, I don't know why I'm just me being me. Um, so yeah, I think maybe, yeah, hopefully, hopefully, at the same time I say that like if I find it hard to take that, you know, lots of people find it hard to take compliments and things like that. But what does give me so much joy is that actually there are people who are watching these videos that I'm creating, and say, you've inspired me to believe that I can do something that I didn't think I could do, and to be able to pass that on is huge to me, because that's something that I strive to do my running is I run to be strong, and to prove to myself that I can do things that I didn't think that I could do, and actually I quoted in our New York Marathon video when I run that, but that was the goal. In front of me running and he was wearing on the back of his shirts, it said, Tell me I can't. And my ex boyfriend who started this passion of running of mine when we broke up, and so I'm not giving him credit for actually starting my passion. It was a I'm gonna go and do something for myself. He, we were watching the Bhakti marathons documentary on Netflix, when we were together, and I said, I'd love to do that one day, and I wasn't a runner at that point. I didn't I genuinely didn't run. I said, I'd love to do that one day and he looked at me and he said, he couldn't even run a marathon. And I I saw that guy, New York Marathon that said, Tell me I can't I just thought watch me because I felt like I was going to ask you about your start to running because and I did read that you're actually timescale allowing a relatively recent runner which I think lots of people might be really surprised about because you are a running authority. And I just find it so astounding. And you just you seem so capable and you are so knowledgeable. And you went from parkrun to marrison. It felt like a matter of seconds. It was about three months. I think I downloaded a I think it was a 12 week training plan. So I signed up to Edinburgh marathon. And so it wasn't because of that boyfriend. So that boyfriend and I also lost a very close friend of mine. And he went out on a night out and was a victim of a one punch attack. And he died at the age of 29. And it was it was a really tough period. It was you know, just really hard to kind of like deal with. And that whole time in my life. I just felt like there was something missing that I needed a release for something. And I was either going to go into the pits of despair or You know, pick up all four habits or whatever, or are going to do something with my life that that mattered. And so I thought, right, I'm going to make the most of what I've got so bad. My friend who died, he was one of these people who just grasped opportunity. He said yes. And he always did well, he set up his own business, he had so much going for him, he had such a zest for life. And so from his death, his we spawned the phrase, be more Bab so live your life and really embrace the opportunities that you've got. And so I thought, I'm going to be more bad and I'm going to run that marathon and I'm going to do it before in 30. And that's my challenge. I'm going to set myself so I signed up for Edinburgh marathon and downloaded their like beginner plan. I think Yeah, like I say I think was 12 weeks. And I were you about stage? No, I wasn't like even going to the gym or anything. was so unfair, that three stone heavier than I am now. And I was living just a terrible lifestyle. And yeah, I just, I love a goal. I love the list. I have my list of runs to do do three miles this day then arrest then do four miles and tick them off and join a running club. I was living in Yorkshire at the time. So join the soul test riders and I have a lot to be grateful to them for because it was you know a bit of a lifeline for me at the time making new friends and finding this passion for running, being surrounded by other runners and um, yeah trained trained my little backside off for an American and they came and it was and still is one of the best experiences of my life. I I it changed crossing that finish line changed me and that was it. I was just hooked on money. I was it How was it apart from the Changing How was it? What was the? You know, did you do a good time? Did you have a good time? Yes. So, um, I, I went into it with the I, like I said, I've been reading loads of blogs and been, like devouring all this information about running. So I went into it, I've read somewhere that it's great idea to have a couple of goals because if one goes to pot, you still got that to cling on to. So I went into it with the goal to finish my first marathon. And then the second goal was to go sub four, because I think that you know, that's quite a big goal for a lot of runners. It's quite a stretch, I think for your first one and I don't think I realised how hard it was. And but I was on track for sub four. And then I hit 16 miles and I'd had a niggle in my it burned during training, but I haven't really known what it was. I just thought that my knee hurt and that flared up so badly during the marathon Actually, it was more like 14 miles because I rang my mom while I was running. And I said, my knee really hurts. Can I meet you at 16 miles so she was there. She had deep heat. And I remember she dropped to the floor and just slathered my leg and DP and was like, You got this, you can do it. I believe in you. And it was so wonderful. I was bawling my eyes out. I said I was in the most pain I've ever been in in my life. But I think seeing her just flicked a switch. And I was like, just get this done. So I hobbled my way through the last 10 miles. And by some miracle, I cross the line in four hours, seven minutes, which obviously isn't some fall but for the drama and the pain that I went through. I still to this day, don't know how I did that. And so it was memorable for sure. You've done some races since What have you done after them? Yes. So and then on my continued hunt for the sub four, I had signed up to Budapest marathan. So that was the autumn of 2017. So I've done the Edinburgh in the May went to Budapest in September and it was hot. So I have like a like cursed with running hot races. Because my first four marathons I think we're all above 2324 degrees, even Edinburgh which is unheard of. And so yeah, it did pass a little bit quicker than Edinburgh but still not so cool. Then I did London 2018 that was when I was working at global. And then I did race to the kings. So I decided to do an ultra just throw that in the mix. So that's 54 miles along southdowns way and which is a whole different ballgame. And then I did Berlin marathon a The autumn of 2018 and I got my sub four. Oh, a 359 21. And, and then I did another one in the spring of 20. No, that's this year there's no racism spring of 2020 2019 a common what it was, was it Brighton Brighton, which I did for the running channel. And then my Lego race for that year was amsterdammers. And so, autumn 2019 and I did like 353. So, yeah, and then my final marathon that I did was my backyard marathon that I filmed during lockdown in my mom's 10 metre longer garden which took five and a half hours and I would not recommend. Yeah, that looked painful. The course was very uninspiring, flat, not fun. Yeah, that was hard. And I assume you had some races this year that you were going to do but will have been cancelled. postponed. What What were you looking forward to? I was supposed to be running a marathon on a frozen lake in Norway. Wow. It's called the ice book marathon. It's run on air lake in a place called goal in Norway and the late f1 says, aren't you worried you fall in the lake is so like frozen solid that they actually test military grade vehicles on it. So I wasn't worried about falling in worried about falling over a little bit. But there's special shoes which I get to run in on ice because obviously probably practice I've run in them on the trails and to see what they like. And they are a bit like a minimal cross country bike so they're not as aggressive as cross country spikes. And, and but yeah, there's somewhere between a cross country spike and a trilogy. And so it's really looking forward to that. That's been cancelled. entirely this year, but I will hopefully be running that next spring instead, you know? And have you had any races coming up like towards the end of this year? Is there anything that you have tentatively signed up for? So my Christmas present to myself last year was to enter Valencia marathon. So I still have a place at Valencia. And as it stands, it's still going ahead. And I think the fact that it's in December has really helped I, there's a little part of me that is like, it might still happen, and I will, I will start my training. I'm due to start my training next week. And so yeah, I everyone's in the similar position they want they were it's like it's that kind of will it won't it in that kind of, I don't know whether I'm going to be able to run it or not. But I like having a focus and hey, if it doesn't go ahead, it's it's all training and it's all learning and You know, so running. So how many ultras have you done? So I've done technically two ultras, but a couple more than that, because some of them were like 24 hour races where I ended up doing more than 30 miles in the 24. So it kind of depends how you how you want to describe an ultra runner, an ultra run a guess it's anything over 26.2 miles. Yeah, done then race to the king, which is my first and that was a real eye opener. I don't think I really considered how far 54 miles of hills is until I cross the finish line at Winchester Cathedral in absolute tears of just it was it shock and all of like, Thank you body for carrying me this far. And over how much time were you doing that? So that took me 13 hours. Yeah. Which was, yeah, long day, very long day. Um, and the most remarkable thing about ultras is going that distance so actually like realising that you can go that distance, but the recovery process afterwards, so I spent the next day after race to the king. I had so much adrenaline going through my body I woke up. They go across the lineup at 10 o'clock at night I went home tried to have a glass of Prosecco with my mum, but just couldn't even cope with thinking about drinking. I was so tired and got in a cold bath, and I think I was finally in bed by about half past 11 slept terribly and just kept waking up with just all this adrenaline going round. You know, when you've got like restless legs and you just, you're on such a high and such a buzz. And so woke up the next Morning at six o'clock and, and think about sleep so I got my phone, searched out the nearest McDonald's and left my mom asleep in the Airbnb and hobbled down to McDonald's for McDonald's breakfast, which was great. And then spent the rest of the day in my four year old niece's paddling pool and freezing cold water, which just honestly, if you can do that after an ultra it's the best form of recovery because I was out running two days later I did like I say running like a little recovery, five k trots. But from crossing the line in Winchester and thinking I'm never going to be able to walk again, let alone to actually being able to get back to sort of shaking that out a bit. isn't real, like it just my body just constantly amazes me. And the same can be said for the Azores when I run 260 k in six days. Like the longest Good day then was 78 kilometres? Yeah, yep, sharp intake of breath that was unreal. And that included climbing up to the highest point of the island in the dark in the box. And yeah, I think just people a lot of time, this kind of goes back to like, what's your piece of advice for newbies and sort of saying Believe in yourself. A lot of people will say, how many marathons Should I run before I attempt to do an ultra marathon? And my advice there is, there is no it's not like you should probably do five and then do it genuinely. If you are willing to put in the hours and work of just constant long runs pace doesn't matter in an ultra. Let's let's get that clear. It's the time on feet and and the mental side of pushing through, if you can push through, you're always going to be in a bit of discomfort during an ultramarathon. It's so far, something will hurt, you'll feel very tired. you'll, you'll want to stop, you'll think you can. But if you can build on that mental side of it and push through, then it doesn't matter how many marathons you've run, you can just, I would say, Be brave, sign up, do it, experience it. It's like an all day picnic. You just snap all along the way. But I mean, I guess the thing is, is like if you're if you begin to do a race, which is 260 kilometres over six days, you can't really train specifically for that because you can't you're not going to be doing that. Oh, you know, and you've been what was your longest run before then? Sort of leading up to anything? Yeah, and a marathon two marathons. So I did it off the back of so I did. Amsterdam marathon is my goal race. So race that hard, took a week off. And then we actually went out to New York for the running channel. So I was filming New York marathons. That was never a race. For me that was never sort of to get a time. And, but I was counting it as a long run ahead of the Azores. And, and so sort of having that two weeks between the marathons and I know you've spoken to Susanna who did seven marathons in seven days on seven continents, so I mean, that that is incredible. knows me going oh, well, I mean two weeks between marathons. It's, it's about and people say this all the time, and I when I first heard it, I was like, what does that mean? But it's about listening to your body. And once you get the hang of that, and don't, don't use listening to your body as an excuse, as I do quite a lot of my own, my body says that it's very tired to do so. I'm going to have a line and skip my run. That's not what I mean. And, but if you, you know, listening to your body and if you feel like you can step off and push yourself a little bit harder, then yeah. And that's that's the key to training for ultras and that time on feet. And, and just like running back to back days running on tired legs. Is is key. And what was amazing during the Azores was feeling that adaptation process of hitting the beginning of the fourth day, so we've done 42 K, and then 235 k days, going into that 78 k long day, knowing that I still have two days left after that. I'm actually feeling stronger on that fourth day than I did when I started and that's because you're body is adapting and is getting used to running on those tired legs. And that's something that I experienced when I was training for Amsterdam marathon because I chose to use the hansons marathon method which is based upon running six days a week and constantly running on tired legs so your the volume of it is quite a lot of volume and actually if your time poor if you're, you know, BUSY WORKING MOM or you know, you struggle like a shift work or whatever it is, it's probably not the plan for you. But I was fortunate that I was able to fit that in around my work life and that running on tired legs, I hundred percent believe in is what shaved like seven minutes off my PB and run through that finish line and I sprinted the last 400 metres of the Amsterdam marathon and probably could have got a bit faster In total, and if I wanted to, because I had never felt as strong as I did, and I put it down to that training cycle. So yeah, running on tired legs is the key for ultra running. And with ultra running do do you bring in like a walk run method? Or do you prime on as much as you can walk walk the hills? Yeah, genuinely. I mean, the Azores, the Azores was like a key, like, example of if there were bits that weren't runnable we'd have our morning briefings and they'd say, right, checkpoint one is here, checkpoint two is here, then it's probably runnable checkpoint three to checkpoint five. Because yet, there are hills and just time even times when you can't run anymore. And, and so rather than I would say, rather than it being like a walk run method, which I would, I would sort of take Being a bit more structured, so I'm going to run for five minutes and walk for five minutes. There was no structure to it, it was walk up the hills, run the flats, if you can run the downhills, the downhills are fun. And and on the long day I actually ended up sort of doing a bit of fart lacking. So running between the flags that we're marking the course, on the flats, just to give myself a bit more of a motivation to get a bit more running done. And when you really feel like you can't anymore. I will. Do you have a preference between ultra marathons because I have a preference for an ultra or at least a trail just mainly because the food is better. And because it's quite difficult to eat flapjack I find if you're running a marathon, but if you're running an ultra it's really easy. Yeah, definitely. I think the thing to the thing to remember is that marathons and ultras are just completely different. If You're especially if you're like a mid pack back of the pack runner. You know, you've got elites like Tom Evans and like Dean karnazes and like just amazing ultra runners, a company with just mentioned two blokes there. When there are so many amazing ultra women who I should have mentioned, like Sophie power. Nicki speaks like all those women who are just so inspirational. And yet they're at the front of the pack. I don't know if they eat flapjacks when they run because they're running so fast. But, um, but yeah, it's just such a different ballgame. And I think, do I have a preference? No, because I love them both for the challenges because they are different challenges. And what I love about an ultra is that it's for me, never about time because I'm not going to run an 8k Ultra one year and then run a different 8k in it. different environment with a different elevation and go of, you know, miles an hour slower that time because you can't compare them. And I think that's what's so nice about ultras is that you see so much of beautiful places because they have to be in beautiful places because they're so big. And, and, and then with marathons, you have got that kind of time element to it, and you know, I will forever not forever because this is a goal that I will hit I my biggest goal is to qualify for Boston Marathon. That's what I want to do, and more than anything, and I know that I've got a lot of hard work to do to get there and I've not, I've not given that goal enough yet, but I will get there.