93. The Right Kind of Tough with Donovan + Rosemary

Donovan + Rosemary are phenomenal parents doing their very best to raise 3 girls in Louisiana.  They're working to parent differently than they were parented, in the South, with a strong-willed child.  They joined me in this episode to share an honest look at the struggles and fears they've experienced over the past few years; some unique, most universal.

Rosemary shares vulnerably about being so hard on herself, especially as an OT working with kids, struggling with her own child. 

Donovan uses great analogies to depict how much his understanding of "good parenting" has shifted over the past year (hint: it wasn't from IG posts sent his way).

If you've ever wondered how to get your partner on board with gentle parenting and transform your home together, you BOTH need this whole interview.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE COVERED...

• The misconceptions that had Donovan convinced gentle parenting wasn't going to keep his kids out of jail - and what would
• The hesitations they each had in investing in their parenting (it wasn't money)
• The most powerful takeaways they both still use while parenting today

DON'T MISS-

• Why Donovan got "mad" at me quite often as we worked together
• A moving realization that brought tears to Rosemary's eyes

// SCHEDULE YOUR FREE CONSULTATION //
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I believe in you & I'm cheering you on.
Come say hi!  I'm @parent_wholeheartedly on Insta.

Transcript

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Donovan: 0:00

How can you not be emotion... emotional about your kids, you know? And so you kind of have to take yourself out of this situation and turn that side of your brain off and say, Look, I'm gonna make an intellectual decision, not an emotional one. And this is this is how they're going to respond to this because of their brain development, which you've showed us from because of how they react because of what they can understand all of these things that are really, you know, just a, when you take that emotion out, it's like, okay, well, this makes this makes a lot of sense.

Danielle Bettmann: 0:38

Ever feel like you suck at this job? Motherhood, I mean? Have too much anxiety... not enough patience. Too much yelling... not enough play. There's no manual, no village, no guarantees. The stakes are high. We want so badly to get it right. That this is survival mode. We're just trying to make it to bedtime. So if you're full of mom guilt, your temper scares you. You feel like you're screwing everything up. And you're afraid to admit any of those things out loud. This podcast is for you. This is Failing Motherhood. I'm Danielle Bettmann. And each week, we'll chat with a mom ready to be real. Sharing her insecurities, her fears, your failures and her wins. We do not have it all figured out. That's not the goal. The goal is to remind you, you are the mom your kids need. They need what you have. You are good enough. And you're not alone. I hope you've had an ear buds somehow sneak away and get ready to hear some hope from the trenches. You belong here, friend, we're so glad you're here. Hey, it's Danielle. I am so excited for you to hear today's episode because it is the hugest gift to be able to peel back the curtain and see and hear a family's true honest journey of their parenting and what it feels like what it really looks like not just the Instagram highlights but the real juicy backstory. And I'm so grateful for my clients, Rosemary and Donovan to have had the willingness to join me on this episode and talk about all things. Gentle parenting, parenting in the south, and parenting a strong-willed child. So Rosemary and Donovan are raising three girls in Louisiana. They invested in my Sanity and Solutions one-on-one coaching, which is a four-month relationship mastering Positive Discipline tools, rewiring your triggers and expanding your capacity and your composure, and writing your Family Business Plan. And in this episode, they give an honest look at their journey as parents over the last year, Rosemary was working in the field as an OT, and she speaks to the added pressure to get it right as a professional in the field struggling to regulate her own child. We speak to the misconceptions around gentle parenting and believing if it's tough, you're doing it right. You have to be tough, if you care about your kids, and it's all going to be worth it in the end when they're not jail. And the impact of that parenting around other family and friends, especially in the south and getting comments or fearing judgment for going against the grain of what others are doing or how you were parented. They share legit hesitations they had to working with me and value they experienced as a result of taking that risk. And there's so many good nuggets in here of not only things that they realized, but just their own perspective that I think you'll really resonate with not only Donovan's great analogies, but Rosemary's honesty around being so hard on herself, that I know you will relate to so much, you'll get so much value from hearing this conversation, whether you are a seasoned parent just like them, or you're brand new to parenting any differently than you might have been parented. But especially if you have a four-year-old-ish with big emotions, that you struggle with self doubt, and you feel like your relationships are suffering as a result:your parent-child relationships, sibling relationships and your marriage relationship as well. This is an episode to share with your partner, because they will be able to see their views and their fears in this family's story. And I know that that will spark conversation you just would not have been able to have otherwise. So make sure that they tune in and hear the same thing at the same time as you. That's why it was really important to me to get both Rosemary and Donovan on this call, and I'm so glad that we managed through many, many technology difficulties to figure out how to get all three of us to not have echoes and hear each other and we lost. We lost Donovan in the process, but we found him again. And it was great. So, without any further ado, I want to make sure that I let you dive into this episode. And if and when you have questions, and you want to be able to talk further about how to find that same level of support for your family, go to parenting wholeheartedly.com. Dive into one of my free trainings, download a free resource and then schedule your initial free, no-obligation consultation as a result. All right, enjoy. Welcome to Failing Motherhood. My name is Danielle Bettmann. And on today's episode, I'm joined by Donovan and Rosemary. Welcome, guys.

Rosemary: 5:56

Hi!

Danielle Bettmann: 5:56

Thanks for coming on the show!

Donovan: 5:57

Hey, Danielle. Hey. So your guys are some of my favorite clients. Oh, and I've worked with you now for like several months, one on one. We met back in May. And it's now November when we're recording this. So I have no doubt that we have plenty to talk about. And I'm just so grateful for the opportunity to bring you on the show. Because I know you're nervous. And I know it feels like a really big deal to be like "Average Joe" parents talking about their parenting. But I know you're just here to like brag about how perfect you have you have it all figured out. And everybody just needs to listen to you, right?

Rosemary: 6:35

Yeah, we're taking over the podcast.

Donovan: 6:39

Just trying to share the knowledge.

Danielle Bettmann: 6:40

Right, right. Right, right. So this you told me that it's not going to be Failing Motherhood, it's gonna be like, Nailing Parenting?

Donovan: 6:47

Yeah. So you're gonna have to rename it after this podcast for sure.

Danielle Bettmann: 6:51

Okay, perfect. So go ahead and introduce yourselves, who are you and who's in your family?

Rosemary: 6:59

So I'm Rosemary, I'm a pediatric occupational therapist. Donovan and I have been married I think, eight years now. And we have three girls Magnolia, who is five, Ophelia who is three, and Prudence who is one.

Danielle Bettmann: 7:16

I just love their names. They're so sweet.

Donovan: 7:19

And I am Donovan Mulvey and I manage investments for a living. If Rosemary says were married for eight years, that's what it is. And I have the same children as she does.

Danielle Bettmann: 7:35

Perfect. And you guys live in Louisiana. Yes. Correct. Yes, yes. Okay. I feel like that is important context for the upcoming conversation. Yes. So you originally found me, I think over Instagram. And we connected talking about your oldest, Magnolia. But you had like a long road leading up to even when our work together started. So I want to be able to give kind of that context to listeners who might find themselves in a similar place to where you were as a family, maybe a year ago, and just what that looked like. So back then, or even now, have you ever felt like you were failing parenting? And what did that kind of winding journey look like?

Rosemary: 8:21

Yes, definitely have felt like I'm failing a lot. I would say it's trickled down some but still, there are definitely times that we feel that way, probably at least daily. And our journey started with me, I would say when Magnolia was probably two, and started having normal two-year-old behaviors. There were moments where I just kind of had the mom rage. And I didn't even know that term, but just felt kind of shocked and sad and scared by the rage that I would feel during her behaviors. And we started out she was our first kid and we started out just disciplining her the way that we knew and the way that it seemed everybody disciplined their kids and the way that we were disciplined and it wasn't long. It was probably within I don't know, six months or less or a year or less that really started thinking this is not right. So we did spank her, we did timeout, and it just wasn't sitting right with me. One, because I had read how spanking is ineffective and how there's research on it causing more aggression. And then we just start I started on a journey of just Following one Instagram account and then following another and the more and more that I read, the more it aligned with the things that I had learned in school and in my career working with kids. And I work with special needs kids, but obviously it all as far as how a child learns, and the brain science behind it. And so that was how I kind of got into the world of gentle parenting. And then I was kind of pulling Donovan and along with me, I would say, sending him you know, if I found a good little blip on Instagram, I would send it to him, send it to him. And like I said, we stopped the spanking. And then at one point, we stopped the timeout, but it was like, we were just, you know, white knuckling through what to do instead, and then butting heads. Because, as it played out, she is a very strong willed child. And so big, big emotions, not a people pleaser at all, you know, when she has an idea, that's what she wants to do. And she's not going to do something else just because you tell her to. And so after we had our third, we started seeing so, Magnolia turned four, and then a month later, we had our third. And so within two months, we started just seeing some pretty extreme behaviors with her, where she was having trouble at school, she was having huge meltdowns almost daily with us at home. And we just kind of felt desperate with how to help her and help ourselves honestly. So that is when I think Danielle, I just came across your account at some point, you know, if you follow this account, and then it leads you to this account. And somehow I just ended up on your account. And I guess the rest is history. Because it was it, I felt like we really needed the the one on one, like, specific, like, I got all the concepts, and I believed in all the concepts and the reasons behind them. But, you know, push come to shove, when we were in the moment with Magnolia, it was like, I didn't know what exactly to do, or I wasn't able to do what I thought I should do. And then luckily, Donovan, was on board and knew that this was really important to me. And, and so here we are.

Danielle Bettmann: 12:28

So Rosemary, I know, for you being in the field of working with kids, there's an added level of weight on your shoulders of feeling like I should know what I'm doing. And you know, I should have it all together. And you might be even like hypersensitive to the behaviors you're seeing because, you know, in the field, what that's like to know when kids need help. And so what did that look like for you? Did you have more anxieties? Or? Or did you feel like something was wrong with her like, what what that looked like for you.

Rosemary: 13:04

So there was definitely a point where I was terrified that there was something wrong with my child. I remember thinking that, saying that to Donovan and asking him and we actually sought out professional help. And yeah, I think since I worked with kids, and you know, always have seen the benefit of extra support for kids. So I'm an OT, and I've seen how much an OT can help a PT, a speech therapist, all these different things. We're always quick to recommend, you know, if we think they need additional support, and so for me, I right away when I started seeing these extreme behaviors with Magnolia, I thought, you know, we have to get we need to talk to somebody. And so there was the pressure of I work with kids, and everyone sees me as someone who's so good with kids, and I've always wanted to work with kids. I feel like that is something that came natural to me. So then to think like, wow, I I am working on all these skills with other people's kids, including self regulation is something that we work on as OTs and I don't know, how to help my own child self regulate. So yeah, it was kind of like this. Wow, what am I doing wrong? moment, but also yes, we are going to seek out additional help. And so we talked to a psychiatrist, and we talked to a psychologist, and I just didn't feel like we got the answers that we were looking for. It was kind of the more traditional, you know, if your child does this, give them a consequence, and I just kept thinking, but why is my child doing this? You know, one of her behaviors that we saw was, she was bringing things home from school every day. You know what we perceived as her she's stealing from her classmates every day. And even though we had talked about it, she kept doing it. And then like I mentioned, she was having these big explosive meltdowns daily. And so I just, I really wanted to get to the bottom of why these behaviors were happening. So that we could treat the cause not the symptoms. Yes.

Danielle Bettmann: 15:18

Yes. Which I'm so glad that you listen to that gut instinct, because it was there for a reason. Yeah. And even though you felt probably a little bit crazy, especially of like, not only, you know, worrying about how you're coming across, but you know, the eyes in Target and you know, family and friends not probably seeing the same thing. It's a very isolating place to be when you feel like I know, my kid best. And I know what we're doing isn't best for them. And I need like, there's something missing, but I don't know what it is. Yeah. And I, oh, like, that's such an icky place to be. And I know that, like, let's say there might be listeners that are in that same place right now. And so it's really valuable for you to be honest, and just be able to speak to some of those fears, because they have had the same thoughts, I guarantee it.

Rosemary: 16:09

Yeah, it's definitely a scary place to be. And that can feel lonely, kind of like, everyone else's child seems to be doing just fine. And mine is having all this trouble. You

Danielle Bettmann: 16:22

yeah. Yeah. I just talked to somebody the know, other day, and they're like, I took my kid to a birthday party. They were a mess. Everybody else's kids. Were just sitting there. Yep, totally fine. With me and my kid.

Rosemary: 16:36

Been there.

Danielle Bettmann: 16:40

So eventually, you ended up finding my page? And what was it that seemed to like click or resonate or feel like there? There is something different here that maybe we haven't tried?

Rosemary: 16:53

Oh, gosh, I wish I could remember the specific thing that you posted. Oh, I know what it was, it was either a question or a post about parenting alongside your spouse, like, being on the same page with your spouse when it came to disciplining your child. Because at that point, in my journey, it was like I had all these strategies, I'd read all these strategies, I knew that they were the right fit for us, and, and they were the going to be the best practice. But I felt like I was kind of dragging Donovan along. And I felt like, Oh, if I could just get him to do it with me, then we could be successful, then I could be successful, because I still felt like I was failing. Even though I knew what I wanted to be doing.

Danielle Bettmann: 17:55

Like you're learning, like, I know what I should do, but I still can't do it. Yeah. When it comes down to it in the moment.

Rosemary: 18:02

I felt like I was also kind of fighting along him like, No, we can't do that. This is what we need to do. And so it was like, How can I get him on the same page? Yes.

Danielle Bettmann: 18:15

So Donovan, what did that look like? Because I'm pretty sure that you had said initially, that Rosemary was showing you like videos, from somebody through like a course. And like you felt like it was like, you know, she wasn't like doing what she said and like, what did that look

Donovan: 18:34

So I think if you just overinundate or oversaturate like? anything, it becomes a little watered down. So I mean, I was getting like, I don't know, 10, Instagram, you know, whatever messages a day. And yeah, and they were, they were kind of saying the, it wasn't, it was like, it wasn't very specific. And it was this very gentle parenting concept, like, like, Rosemary had said, and to me, it wasn't that I wasn't... I don't want, I don't want anybody to think or you know, even you to think that I wasn't ever on board with trying anything or ever on board with the gentle parenting concept. It to me... it was just that I was willing to do whatever it took to raise a good child, whatever good means to that parent, but, you know, I didn't want I wanted to keep my child out of harm's way. And so whatever, whatever that took, and generally how I was raised anyway, you know, the harder you do things, the better the results, you know, I mean, working, if there's no gentle workout, you know, routine. Like, let's just, you know, kind of do half a set up once a week, and don't push yourself too hard. You know, and your body's gonna respond to that, you know, and, and things are tough, you know, working is tough, and, you know, working on relationships is tough. And, and so why would parenting be any different, right? You have to be firm, you have to be tough, you have to do the hard thing. And the hard thing is not fun. And it just seemed to me that gentle parenting was possibly too easy, if that makes sense. To where like, just be, you know, that's how I looked at it at first was, hey, just be your child's friend. And, you know, I mean, you let them talk to you. And a lot of that was like, Well, no, that's, that's lazy, you need to be authoritative. And you need to, you know, force things. And, and, and, you know, that's harder right now. And they're not going to, they're not going to be happy with you right now. But one day, when they get older, and they're out of trouble, it'll be worth it. So it was very conflicting to my original ideas. Because at the end of the day, and I think that a lot of people can relate to this. There's absolutely no parenting manual that says, Look, if you just follow this, then everything's going to turn out okay. And so nobody knows. And so because nobody knows. I was reluctant to just say, like, well, what if this is wrong? And if this is wrong, then we screwed up for the I don't know, three months, six months a year? How long are we gonna go down this road? Yeah, before we say this is not working. And now we have a problem that snowballed because we let our child you know, walk all over us. Right? It's so valuable.

Danielle Bettmann: 20:46

No, I'm so glad that you can, like articulate that so well, because I know that that will resonate with a lot of other families where that's that's the reality is like, we both want what's best for our kids. That's not the question. It's how do we go about that in the most guaranteed way to create the kid and the the outcomes that we're looking for. And it's scary to trust a system that either we haven't been taught or weren't parented with, or don't have enough education behind to truly be able to trust and like you're trusting, your, the biggest thing that you care about the most, which is like your kids and their livelihoods and their ability to contribute and thrive in the hands of like a methodology that seems i don't know, iffy at best, right? That's the reality. So big emotions from Little People are running the show at your house. Is that right? Do they fall apart when something doesn't go their way? Just once, why can't they accept the fact that the answer is no. Am I right? The struggle is real, you're not alone, and you're in the right place. When your days are filled with relentless push back, it is so hard to feel like a good parent, especially when you're in laws aren't shy and sharing how they think your kids just need a good spanking. Every time you lose it, when they lose it, you feel like a failure. The worst part is, without addressing the root of your child's behavior, you're doomed to play a fruitless game of Whack a Mole reacting rather than preventing the next conflict. And next time, nothing's gonna go differently. The good news is, when you have a handful of effective discipline tools in your pocket, you're able to step into full confidence as their parent, parenting actually becomes a whole lot easier. I promise, you're not failing them, you just need more tools. So if you have a tiny human, who's full of love, and yet so, so difficult, if you can only be so nice for so long. If you've tried everything and still feel defeated on the daily, I free class, authentic and unapologetic is for you. In this free training, I share five huge misconceptions in parenting strong-willed kids that inadvertently invite defiance for mistaken goals, they're using their behavior to meet and what to do about it. How to let judgment roll off your back and truly feel like the parent your kids need, and why what you're currently doing just isn't working and isn't going to anytime soon. So go to parenting wholeheartedly.com/unapologetic To access this exclusive free training immediately. That's parenting wholeheartedly.com/unapologetic The link will be in the show notes.

Rosemary: 24:19

Yeah, and I think I think there is a big misconception about gentle parenting being permissive. Now, especially down here, I think that's a big misconception.

Danielle Bettmann: 24:32

Yeah, speak to that for a second about like, what the overall was, what is it like to parent in the south? And do your friends and like your extended family have the same ideology or what is that like right now?

Rosemary: 24:46

You know, I don't want to like throw out. I don't want to throw the South under the bus. Because I think there are a lot of people in our generation who are are realizing and wanting to do things differently. But especially where we are, what is the norm and expected is that you teach your child to be respectful. And the the definition of respectful is basically obedient and polite. And, yeah, there's definitely been comments, especially from extended family on both of our sides of, you know, you're just gonna let them get away with that. You need to give them a punishment for that your kids are out of control. And so it is hard, but it's, I feel like it's aligned, because I feel very strongly about it, that it is a much better method than how we were raised. But you're kind of looking especially, you know, our parents generation, were kind of looking him in the face and saying, NO, you did it wrong. Yeah, by saying no, we're not going to do it that way. So, you know, especially when they think they did it, right. So it's definitely tricky. Yeah.

Danielle Bettmann: 26:16

Yeah, that's really challenging. And did that did that play into your impression at all of like, what it is to be a good parent, or what it looks like to have a good, quote, unquote, good parent, child relationship? Donovan, how did that play into kind of your impression of

Donovan: 26:32

Sure. Um, I Yes. There's a simple answer. I mean, things? you know, I, I, we I'm very close with my parents and I would say I have two sisters and we you know, relatively I think we turned out all right. It's hard to argue against that, you know, and so I think you have to go, I don't know if you heard this. But if you have to go into, you have to go into this process, not only teaching your child this, but you have to teach yourself how to do this. And you have to be, you know, you have to, you have to forgive yourself on a lot of things. But you also have to teach your, your parents if they are involved parents, and you have to teach people around you, kind of not necessarily what you're doing. But it's a lot easier if you show them what you're doing and say, you know, look, I'm not arguing against how you parented I'm not putting it up against that, it's just this is how we're choosing to do things. And, you know, I mean, if, if a parent is teaching a child how to drive and you know, he sits in the, the parent sits in the front seat every time, you know, and then grabs the wheel, every time that the kid is about to go off the road, then you know, the child's not going to really learn how to drive and like the parent is going to have to stay there forever, and he's going to be involved in the parent is going to constantly be there and see, like, look, my child didn't get in any wreck. But I think what we're doing with gentle parenting is allowing the child the freedom to make a mistake, and the freedom for be a little bit more, you know, open and, and allow them to express themselves. And that may look like this respect, but they're learning how to talk to us, and they're learning how to drive. So that one day, we don't have to be in the passenger seat, we can feel comfortable with them driving on their own.

Danielle Bettmann: 30:09

You're so good with analogies. Yes. And I would love to pick your brain just a little bit more, because there was a lot of times throughout coaching that you got really mad at me for making a lot of sense. And I'm saying that jokingly, because we have a great relationship, but I just loved how how Frank, you were, and like being saying, like, what you're saying makes so much sense. And it's so frustrating to me that it makes so much sense. So describe, describe what that felt like, as we started getting going, because I know you had some legitimate hesitations with moving forward, even though you guys did move forward, like, you know, right away, and and you had a great conversation, you were very much on the same page about how your family is a huge priority to you. And you know, you aren't afraid of making investments in the ways that you consider growing yourselves and as a family. But you know, for good reason. You didn't know me, you don't know my process. And you know, there there is a lot of risk involved with that. So for you, as a dad, what did it feel like to jump in trusting me in this process? And then what did it actually compare to versus what you expected?

Donovan: 31:26

Yeah. Well, you've been waiting eight months to say that. Wrote it down in a little notebook? No, I think that, you know, it goes back to what I said earlier is I didn't know what would work. And so then I don't want to get ahead of my head of your any kind of schedule, but you know, it also is a monetary investment, which, you know, being an investment advisor, you know, I if you whether you can afford it or you can't afford it is not the question. I mean, because I think it's very necessary to use these tools. The question to me was, was there value in it, I wasn't looking at the cost of anything, I was looking at the value of the product. And so, you know, I said, Well, what can that money spend? You know, I mean, could we go on a vacation and work things out? Is this going to work itself out? Is this going to be you know, not worth the squeeze and so there is there is that part of the struggle and so, I was a little defensive on you know, saying in the whole world Have of, of, you know, Instagram and the whole world of people we can talk to? And, and, you know, is this really a process that's going to work for our family and we're willing to make a monetary investment in a time investment, a time, not just in our schedule, but in our child's life. You know, all of these were really high hurdles for you, Danielle to kind of jump over and, and whenever something was working, it was it was kind of like a tongue in cheek pleasant, like irritation that it was like, it was, it was I think it was frustrating to me how obvious some of the things were. You know, because, and I, you know, Rosemary and I went on a date night where we're talking about this, that when you're when you're kind of down a rabbit hole, and you look around you you don't, you don't recognize anything other than where you put yourself. And when someone pulls you out of that rabbit hole really quickly, and is able to show you kind of a different perspective. It's like, Well, man, the door was right here the whole time?! I had no idea. Like, it's so obvious. Like, of course, she doesn't want to get yelled at. I mean, like, how would like, you know, how would I respond? If I was on the floor, and I didn't know and I was opening a candy wrapper, and rosemary came in and just started fussing at me like, a course I would be upset. Of course, I would throw it, you know, and it's not disrespectful that I would do that. It's a reaction. And so a lot of things were frustrating to me, because I was like, Why didn't I think of that? But I think that that's a good thing. Because it's it Parenting is hard enough, you know, you don't need the process to be, you know, physics like it. It's good that it's like the simpler, the better. It's like cooking, you know, I mean, sometimes you just keep it simple. And things turn out like really well. And so I think that I think that that's why I was more frustrated. I was more frustrated at myself not using you know that. I was like, Why? Why didn't we think of this already? You know what I mean?

Rosemary: 34:10

Yeah, and that's kind of what I was trying to say as far as when all these things started aligning with what I knew. Working with kids, and, and knowing childhood development. It was like, oh, yeah, like, of course, course a child doesn't learn when they're fight or flight. I know that. But when it was, in our face, our own child, it was like, we were too close to the project.

Danielle Bettmann: 34:36

And again, I'd love that analogy of like being in the rabbit hole, because you only see darkness. Everything is like two inches from your face. It's very hard to be able to zoom out and think objectively and critically about something that you're so emotionally involved in on a constant exhausting basis.

Donovan: 34:59

Right? Yeah, I do it. I do it a lot with people with their money. You know, it's hard to think intelligently when you think emotionally, and how can you not be emotion, emotional about your kids, you know. And so you kind of have to take yourself out of this situation and turn that side of your brain off and say, Look, I'm gonna make an intellectual decision, not an emotional one. And this is, this is how they're going to respond to this because of their brain development, which you've showed us we're from because of how they react because of what they can understand all of these things that are really, you know, just a, when you take that emotion out, it's like, okay, well, this makes this makes a lot of sense. You know, we were, I think we were in church the other day, and like our kid was, one of them was running down the aisle. And afterwards, an older lady came up to us and was like, and I was like, I'm sorry, if that bothered you, you know, immediately you're, you're so nervous that Why are my kids doing this and all this stuff? And she she said something that was pretty profound, she said, she said, nobody notices your child's actions more than you do. So so like that parent at the birthday party, I was thinking about that, like how many how many parents do you think we're staring at ladies are man's child being like, wow, everybody else He's been behaving, but that child is so bad, like nobody,

Rosemary: 36:02

where I was very anxious and apologetic of Magnolia. And friends would say, she's fine. And she's just as a kid, she's fine. But in my mind, I was, you know, taking it to the worst case scenario.

Danielle Bettmann: 36:19

Yeah. So a big part of of some of our work together was being able to differentiate like, this behavior is not personal. I don't need to take this personally, I don't need to catastrophize this, you know, and being able to have more inner peace and like, get a hold of kind of that voice in your head. So speak to either that or anything else from coaching that you found really valuable? What do you wish that you would have realized sooner? Or what was some of the things that have really stayed with you?

Rosemary: 36:54

So, for me, I think the biggest thing was, when we started, or when I started, you know, learning all these new things. It was, I need to fix my child, I need to fix my child, how can I fix this behavior? How can I fix that behavior? And turns out what I needed to fix was myself so and that was a big one for me was the catastrophizing, the the black and white thinking it was, it was that was the biggest area of work. And the biggest area of growth for me throughout our program, was working on my triggers. And I feel like a word is out there so much now, especially if you're following all the accounts, and listen to all the podcasts like I do, trigger trigger trigger. But what does that mean? And I think being able to work with you and break it down, into okay, what is triggering, but what's the thought process that you're not even realizing you're having you don't realize you're, you're doing these things, you don't realize that you're taking one moment in a typical child's day and projecting it to when they're 20. In the moment, you're not realizing that you're just acting from a place of fear. And so that was the biggest area for me was really identifying and breaking down the different thought processes behind the triggers. And then being able to realize, no, this doesn't mean there's something wrong with my child. This doesn't mean my child's going to end up in juvie. It just means they're doing a completely typical developmental behavior in this moment, and I just support them through it instead of reacting. So yeah, it was just realizing I don't need to fix my childhood. I really need to fix this myself. Yeah, hard. It's hard to do.

Danielle Bettmann: 38:53

That's powerful, very hard. And you paid a lot of money to realize that that's like a punch in the face, right? What about you, Donovan, what was what was

Donovan: 39:07

I agree. It was all Rosemary needed to fix herself. helpful for you? No, I think I think a big part of I think something I'd take away as I kind of touched on it earlier, but was just, they respond to your reaction and kind of mirror that reaction. So even if you want to kind of just like, you know, scream or jump up or do something, you know, because it's just the rush of emotions, kind of taking a step back and waiting and taking a deep breath. And even if it feels so weird, especially at first just being like, you know, Hey, why are you so upset right now? Like, can you want to tell me about it a little bit? Like, it sounds so hokey, but it's like, it's so it's so amazing. And irritating. whenever, whenever they're just like, immediately, it's not going to happen every time either. But even if it happens, like one out of every five times, that they just stop, and they're like, oh, Phil, you said this. And I'm like, wow, like, imagine if I would have like, raised my voice, she never would have told me that. And I never would have realized why she was upset. And I could have never fixed the problem. Because I didn't know what it was. And in fact, that would create another problem, because I was bossing. And then in her little mind, it's, it's me just being so much more broad, you know, I'm distancing myself from her because I'm like, not trying to solve the problem. In fact, now I'm fussing at her when she's emotional. It just, it just compounds when your emotional and your thoughts and instead of trying to get on their level, and it's frustrating getting on their level, because you're, you know, you're an adult, and they're a child. And so it's hard to try to, you know, retrain your brain to become a child and say, you know, think about, I don't know, think about how big a door is to them, like, just look at a door and be like, That's a normal sized brain, instead of trying to put my own emotions and my own thought process behind everything. I think we do that a lot, and a lot of different things. But you know, I mean, I think if we tried to understand people and where they're coming from and our children, I think it does make it a lot easier. And you've showed us a lot of tools to help us do that. It take a second to calm down to, you know, Rosemary, actually, at one point, put a bunch of sticky notes around the house drove me nuts, because I'm OCD and like, they they like, like, literally I would go to get my coffee and like there'd be like, be called confident parent. And like, I'm like really? All my coffeemaker you know, but it's, it's true. You know, I mean, being being confident and, you know, being you can be assertive without being punitive. You know? I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it's okay to make a stance and be and like rosemary said, it's not permissive. It's you still set boundaries. It's just you, you let them kind of you get into their world a little bit more. That's that's kind of what I'm trying to get out.

Danielle Bettmann: 43:24

yeah. And have you seen that shift in Donovan, Rosemary?

Rosemary: 43:30

Oh, for sure. It's been huge. Especially in the last month or so it's a it's like he, he heard it and he believed it. And he wanted some proof, some reasoning behind it. And then now he is it's more natural to him now, though. It's not him kind of pushing through when he wants to yell. Now I'm gritting my teeth and asking. It's like he genuinely is asking what's wrong? what's going on? From a place of concern, instead of just kind of gritting his teeth and and holding back that? Yeah, yell, I would say.

Danielle Bettmann: 44:15

and being surprised by the outcome, because I remember him coming coming to a session being like she was bawling and yelling about something and then I got down on her level and I asked her about it and then like two minutes later, we had a conversation about it. She was over it she was on to the next thing and I was just like reeling and like a hangover of like what just happened and I love that because like that that shock and awe is is part of it where you're like oh wow, like there was a potential here I didn't even know was possible. And it feels a little bit like magic. Like what's this voodoo? like... What am I what is happening? But it's still not like actually integrated into your instinct at all. It's going completely against your instinct is having to write years and years of conditioning for you to stop the train while it's like already halfway off the tracks. So that takes time. It takes a lot of time and practice.

Donovan: 45:09

Yeah, I would say and again, this is not the first stop under the bus. Because, I mean, we travel a lot and something that we I mean, it's something that I get it anyway as I can, you don't have an accent and I can't even tell you from the south. Like thanks a lot. But it you know, my my dad, which was the more authoritative parent, you know, his family grew up in Massachusetts, and he was raised in Florida. And so he, you know, that's a different world, though. He, but he was more assertive with everything. And it was more of the children are to be seen and not heard. And it's okay to fear your parents, because that's, that's, you know, where you get discipline from and back? Yeah, exactly. It was, it was a very, like, you're not supposed to be their friend, you're supposed to be their parent, you know, I mean, that was, I mean, those are all those are pretty, pretty much quotes. And I don't blame them. I mean, you know, because I told rosemary, like, if you look at how they were raised, it was, you know, it was completely different as well. And so we're, we should be progressing and all things even, you know, especially our relationships with our children, and so why not? And I think my dad would say the same thing. Like, yeah, if you have a better way, then why not do it? You know? And it's just hard to kind of think about that, it's hard to say, like, you know, this is, this is something that's very different than how I was raised, you know, you know, and so, again, how do we know that it's not wrong? But no, um, um, I would say, it's, I don't want to sound too, like hokey, but it's like a philosophy and a lot of your relationships, not just with your children, you know, I noticed my relationship with my wife being better. And she, she credits that to me, you know, she likes our relationship, you know, she likes my relationship with my children being better. And that, in turn makes her closer. And that's probably true. But it's probably a lot to do how I reacted to, you know, her maybe in a tough situation. And so, you know, you take those same tools into your other relationships and your, you know, your office, or wherever you work, or, you know, you're it's just, it's like, at some point, it's hard to shut off, you know, like, kind of putting yourself in the other person's shoes and saying, Boy, you know, how do they feel about this? Because instead of just reacting, instinct, you know, on instinct, it's, you just, you cut them a break every once in a while, and you say, Okay, well, let me let me let me try to put myself in their perspective. And let me take a deep breath. And let me let them cool down. And let me let them articulate what's going on. So that, you know, we can maybe solve the problem and I don't know, a bonus.

Rosemary: 48:30

I think kind of a, an aha, for me at some point. And what I think other people sometimes don't think about is, when you're parenting, you're in a relationship with your child. And it is a relationship. It's, it's unique in that you're the parent of the child, but it's not so different that you would treat them and all these ways that you would never treat a friend. Never treat a coworker never treat your spouse. But I think some of the really like aha moments for us or when you were able to say, Okay, well, if you did this, and Rosemarie reacted this way, would you be willing? Would you be open to hearing her perspective? Or would you shut you down? And it's so true, and it's the same for our kids, we still need to treat them, you know, with the same respect that we would treat adults, if not more so. So then they can learn to be respectful.

Danielle Bettmann: 49:36

highest form of leadership. And I know you know, when you're in a corporate setting or when you know, you're in the role that you're in dominant, you're leading other adults and you're leading, you know, a business and when we completed like the family business plan process, it brings in just a lot of those kind of core principles of, you know, having high values and being in integrity with how you You know live your life and how you create belonging and, and a mission and a vision, you know, that others ascribe to you. And so much of that is wrapped up in the day to day of your parenting to that. It's just a new lens to kind of see it all in.

Rosemary: 50:25

Right gives you a new perspective, and I think pulls you out of the rabbit hole that you were in. Like we talked about, you know, we talked about recently. Zooming out, like it's so hard to zoom out with all that fresh perspective. Yeah. Yeah.

Danielle Bettmann: 50:43

Yeah. The relationships, Rosemary, I'm curious for Magnolia is relationship with Donovan.. from the trajectory that it could have been on, and the trajectory that it's on now. What do you see? Where do you see a difference? And what does that mean to you?

Rosemary: 51:11

I'm sorry. Sorry. It's, it's just, it's a huge, it's a huge take for me, because that was, that was one of my biggest worries was, I want my girls to have a strong relationship with their daddy, I feel like that's so important. And it's something that I didn't have. And I really was, was scared to see. Especially when Magnolia was little. And she was a baby when she was a toddler. She was such a daddy's girl. And then I felt like I saw this break starting to happen. And, you know, she really didn't want to listen to him. And he I think he felt as equally discouraged with how things were. And yeah, now to see him respond to her with patience and openness, and to see her kind of pull into him versus push away, is, it hasn't been much more helpful for how she'll be with her daddy, when she's a teenager and an adult. And it's just, it's everything, you know? Yeah,

Danielle Bettmann: 52:29

Yeah, I could so tell. And I know that that means a lot to Donovan to, but I just know, like you said, outsider perspective of like, getting to watch, the dynamic change is a really beautiful place to be because you can notice some of those things that again, you know, you don't notice when it's you where you don't notice, you know, the day to day that's so close to you. So, now I have to put you on the spot for you, what do you feel like has been the biggest takeaway or benefit or value add, from what your experience has been over the last few months of, you know, working together?

Donovan: 53:27

great. This is what we have to do. Because this is all we know. And this is the discipline. But it was always in the mindset of like, again, things that are tough, yield good results. And what was tough was being tough as a father. And Rosemary said a word that she saw me relax and be patient with my daughter for the first time. And I can tell you very clearly, to anybody that's listening. Being patient, with a three to five year old is much tougher than spanking them. And so it is the tough thing to do. It's not the easy out. It's not being permissive. It's not being, you know, letting them walk all over you it is tougher to listen to your parents and other people say how you should parent, it is tougher to get down on their level and let your emotions run all over your brain. Like you're trying to be calm for your daughter. That is the tough thing to do. And so then I like to challenge and so then it became a game for me where it's like, Oh, hell yeah, I got this, like, you want to you want to go to a level 10 I'm gonna go 11 Like we, I will put my patients on 11 scale right now. Like, and so it was like, it was like, I'm not going to be the parent who blows up. I'm going to be the parent who is just so calm, that this child thinks I'm crazy until she tells me you know how is hugging me and telling me what's wrong? So that I can fix it and be there for and I am a daddy's girl? I have three girls. And you know, I? I tell her all Yeah. I'm not a daddy's girl make sure to edit that out. But there's, you know, I mean, I say, you know, best friends forever. And they they no matter what, you know, I mean, I love that close relationship. I want to close relationship. And that's that's why I think this will resonate with people during the process because like I said, if you don't want to close relationship, I don't think you're listening. So I think that you know, it that was the, the kind of aha moment for me was it came full circle that you know, that we are doing what's best for our kid by letting our children open up to us be who they are. express themselves when they don't know how and and we have to do the tough thing to you know, allow them to live you know, that's what I would say.

Danielle Bettmann: 54:46

That was like, such a bow tie like the beginning of our conversation to the end. I feel like he just like converted it to a TED Talk like, that was so good, so eloquent. So I would like powerful because the it's so true, that is the hardest thing to be patient, it is the toughest way to go about it, to have the maturity that they don't have to handle what they cannot to be the strong person and their safe place that they can come to when like, all life is hard and everyone's mean and everything's falling apart, we don't need to be their first bully, we need to be like their safe shelter, there's their haven that they feel like they can fully be themselves with, and like, flail their arms and figure out all the boundaries of the world with and then the continued to come to us year after year, down the road, and you know, want to come home for Christmas and know that like whoever they're going to whatever they're going to do is is going to be like, you're always gonna think the world of that. And there's no greater gift you can give your kids than that type of support you get guys are phenomenal parents, I'm so grateful to have had the opportunity to support you and get to know you. And there was at one point, even my husband popped into a zoom to meet you because I just like we just need to be friends like I wish closer. Maybe someday, or you keep saying that you're gonna fly me down. So I can be a fly on the wall. So we'll make that happen. But to wrap it up, is there anything else that you maybe had thought to share that we haven't gotten a chance to talk about yet, or anything that you would say to families listening that are still really struggling?

Rosemary: 56:39

I would say another big point for me was learning and working on the self compassion. And we talked about the beginning, you know, holding myself to a higher standard. And I think I did I think I've put so much pressure on myself to be a good mom, that when I don't react perfectly gentle, calm, peaceful. I'm very hard on myself and not realizing that being so hard on myself, it was like shooting myself in the foot like it was making it harder to show up for my care. So that was a big area. For me, it was just the self compassion. And I hadn't really dove into that, you know, corner that that niche of parenting before.

Danielle Bettmann: 57:30

And I've seen you grow so much, because you are your own worst enemy, your own worst critic. And you know, it'd be so quick to be like, well, 99 things went well today. But there's one thing didn't and how dare it not. And you know, I'm the worst parent, because I let that one moment, you know, happen. And I know that that was something too that that dominant bring to calls and say like, Hey, I feel like what I'm seeing is pretty good. Like, I feel like we're not seeing the same thing. And that was really healthy to be able to have that you know, back and forth to be able to broaden your perspective to have instead of being so, you know, narrow minded into the negative, just truly being able to give yourself the credit that you deserve for, you know, the work that you're doing.

Rosemary: 58:24

Right. And I think just the credit, but also the compassion for in the moments that I mess up. Because, you know, I think you said at one point you can't give to your child what you don't give yourself and so how can I show up and be compassionate to my child, if I'm really not being compassionate with myself? Yeah,

Danielle Bettmann: 58:47

person and now being on the other side. And that's why it's so incredibly valuable to hear your journey and your perspective, because you're speaking exactly the same language, as you know, families that have kids just like yours, and to find themselves in the situate same situations. And they may not even be in the south. And so that's why I'm so grateful for your vulnerability and your willingness to speak to that because it so incredibly valuable. I feel like I've said that were million times. But so to wrap up as like the last question that I asked every guest that I have on, is how are you guys, the parents that your three girls need?

Rosemary: 59:29

I would say I would say I'm the mom that our girls need, because I am willing to learn and willing to be on the journey with them. And I think I'm the mom they need because they're the they're the kids that I need. You know, I think we were put together for a reason.

Danielle Bettmann: 59:58

Thank you again for For the time taking the time, I know we had like 18 million technology difficulties to get us to this point. So I'm so grateful for you to come on that journey with me and for just taking all the time that you have to be so self reflective and intentional and mindful of the way that you're parenting this year, because it truly is an investment they you will not regret in the long run. So thanks again for coming on this show. And I so appreciate your time. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of Failing Motherhood. Your kids are so lucky to have you. If you loved this episode, take a screenshot right now and share it in your Instagram stories and tag me. If you're loving the podcast, be sure that you've subscribed and leave a review so we can help more moms know they are not alone if they feel like they're failing motherhood on a daily basis. And if you're ready to transform your relationship with your strong willed child, and invest in the support you need to make it happen. Schedule your free consultation using the link in the show notes. I can't wait to meet you. Thanks for coming on this journey with me. I believe in you, and I'm cheering you on