Speaker 1 (00:00:08):

Magic lies with the trails. You're listening to the journey on podcast with Warwick Schiller. Warwick is a horseman trainer, international clinician and author, whose mission is to help people achieve a deeper connection with their horses through his transformational training program.

Warwick (00:00:35):

Welcome back to the genuine podcast. I'm your host Warwick Schiller. And today I've got a special guest that before I bring my guest on, I've got a little bit to tell you a little bit of a story about how these guests came to be on the podcast. And one of the earlier episodes of the podcast was called how to manifest a car crash. And I talked about some of my experience with manifesting animal communicators and also coincidences enlightened. If had some coincidence is happening, they were pretty unbelievable back in I think it was in December, on the 17th of December, I had someone on my Facebook group post and say, have you ever read a book by Richard Bach called delusions, which I hadn't. And that was on the evening of the 17th. So that's the first and I was 53 years old then as I am now.

Warwick (00:01:32):

And that was the first time I'd ever heard of the book illusions by Richard Bach. So two days later on the 19th and the morning of the 19th, when the mail arrives, I get to hand addressed packages in the mail. One of them from someone I know in England, and one of them from someone I don't know here in the United States and I'd opened, I opened up the first one and it's a copy of the book illusions by Richard Bach. And so you know, about 36 hours before, I'd never heard of this book called illusions by Richard Bach. And then I open up a package from someone in England that was sent, you know, five or six days before. And it is the same book that I've only just become aware of that they, they randomly felt the need to send to me.

Warwick (00:02:35):

And I thought, wow, that is crazy. And I thought, I wonder, what's in the other package. And so I opened up the other package and this is where it gets really we'd sign book. So I looked up, I looked up how many millions of books have ever been written? And I forget how many it was, but if you take, take the fact I'd never heard of that book two days before, and then someone to send it to me and they send it before I actually ever heard of the book. You think about the odds of that happening are pretty astronomical, but then the odds of two different people sending me the same book that I arrive on the same day, two days after I first heard of that book is completely mind boggling. And then new year's day this year. So, you know, it's now 20, 21 new year's day.

Warwick (00:03:29):

I had an eight o'clock zoom call with a gentleman from Texas. Who's a horse trainer and has a bit of an online program. And he wanted me to be on his he was doing some sort of a course. He wanted me to be a guest speaker on his course, and there was some other people who were on the course, you know, I wasn't the only guest speaker. And so sometimes I'm a little bit wary about who I will APY with and things like that in case the others are, I would decide, you know, on a different path than I am. I don't want to be associated with someone who is on a completely different path than me. And I asked the guy, I said, so who were the other presenters? And he said, well, there's, so-and-so who I'd never heard of. And then he said, and the other one is Susan Fay, who I'd never heard of. And he said, you should, she's written a book called sacred spaces. You should read it. It's a really good book. And something started being you're in a little, the little sensor in my head started going.

Warwick (00:04:40):

And I'm thinking, where have I heard that? That sounds somewhat familiar, not terribly familiar, but somewhat familiar. And I said, hang on. I was on the phone. And I said, hang on someone the other day sent me a book in the mail and opened it up. And I haven't, haven't even opened the book yet. It's sitting on the kitchen counter and hang on a second. It sounds a little bit like that. So I walk out to the kitchen and there on the kitchen counter is sacred spaces by Susan Fe. And so I, if that wasn't crazy enough, then I started reading the book. And when I started reading the book, I was like, Oh, I have to get this lady on the podcast. But in the book it says a little bit about Susan fates is Dr. Susan FES been a professional musician, environmental scientist, rancher, horse trainer, sports performance, consultant, hypnotherapist, and psychological health researcher.

Warwick (00:05:36):

She bred and trained Morgan horses for over 20 years and accumulated world and national championships in woven massage. She also showed a horse in open USD after dressage competitions receiving several regional championships and a USC F, which is United States of question Federation, horse of the year award. She has a bachelor's and master's degree in environmental and a PhD in psychology. So that is the most diverse range of qualifications I think I've ever heard. And so we're about to get it on the line here, but I'm really looking forward to talking to Dr. Susan Fe, Dr. Susan faith. Thank you for joining me.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:06:25):

Well, thank you for inviting me. This is just a thrilling time for me, and lots of things are happening now.

Warwick (00:06:33):

Oh, that's good. You know, you're one of my, not an, I don't want to call you out, but you're one of the odd guests that I have that I don't really know much about at all. I've had one other guest on here that I, I knew nothing about, and I was probably the most popular podcast I've done. So this one might be, might be the same when I I introduced, I did an intro for the show before, and I told the story about how I came to have your book and hear your name for the first time. We probably should finish that story off to where I, I posted on my Facebook group about what happened. And I explained the story about how, you know, the, the illusions by Richard Bach, showing up in the mile, and then talking to Noah here the other day on the 1st of January about this course that he was doing. And then he mentioned you were at you're presenting, and then he'd said about your book. And then I said, hang on. There's something out here in the kitchen, went out and Hey, the book has arrived in the mail yesterday, but then I posted about that in my Facebook group. And funnily enough, you replied to it. That was, that was another oddity to the whole thing.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:07:47):

Yes. And the backstory to that was on the 31st of December. I was sitting in my house and I was trying to think about what to do next year, this year, 2021. And I wanted it to be better than last year. And I had very little horse stuff going on just because of all that's going on in the world. And so everything was kind of slowing down and I was kind of thinking, well, am I going to have to do a different kind of job just to make ends meet here and then get going? And I was kind of frustrated and I thought, you know, God universe, whatever it is, can you give me some sort of sign if I'm supposed to continue on with the horse work, because I'm feeling I'm frustrated and not getting ahead. And, you know, sometimes people are rolling their eyes at some of the things that I do cause you know, I'm a little bit different.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:08:40):

And that night I went to bed thinking, okay, so I've got to make a new plan for, am I going, gonna paint houses? What am I going to do for a living? And the next morning, a friend of mine had sent me a private message on Facebook and said, look at Warwick Schiller's website or Facebook page. And I thought, and she had a screenshot of, of what you had put on there about my book. And I thought that is, if that's not a message, I don't know what is, that's a smack in the back of the head. If I don't listen to this message and respond, that's crazy. And for the, for my book to find you on that very day, that I had made that proclamation, like, please show me if this is what I'm supposed to do. I think I just find it amazing. I find it absolutely amazing.

Warwick (00:09:35):

Yeah. I find stuff like that. Amazing too. One of the, one of the episodes of the podcast I did was called that was on manifesting animal communicators and spooky coincidences. That was, there was a whole, there was a whole two-hour podcast, all the, the weird things that have happened to me and that, and that, there's just another one. So in your reply to me on that, on that Facebook group, you, you know, you told the story about how you had said, okay, I need to sign if I'm to continue this work. And you said, because you know, people kind of roll their eyes at me. And tell me a bit about what it is that you do. We will get into sacred spaces here in a minute and the whole book itself, but w why, why do you, why do you think people roll their eyes at you?

Dr. Susan Fay (00:10:21):

Because I think what happens with what I do and it's kind of evolved over my lifetime with horses and training horses and showing and all that. And it just evolved where I started thinking about doing things differently that I watched the great writers, the people that were really successful, and I couldn't figure out what they were doing that was different because some of them had great techniques. Yes. But some of them didn't, and some of them didn't have great seats and they didn't seem to have all the things you're supposed to have when you're a great writer, a great successful person. And I kept looking and I thought, wait, it's something invisible that they're doing. What are they doing? That's invisible that I can't see. And it kind of led me to a place of, okay, I'm going to look at sports psychology and that whole mental part of writing and training.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:11:18):

And so I really got in depth of the, the science behind all the performance psychology and what to do and how to control your emotional state and how to control your mind and your thought processes so that you can slow your physiology down and be more successful. So I was looking at it from that way. So I would say my, my odd places there, weren't a lot of people doing that at the time I was researching it. I couldn't find people to help me with that at the time. So I kind of went off on my own little journey in that direction. And as I started to implement these, just the basic sports psychology things about here's, how to gain more focus, here's how to slow your mind down. And here's how to control your thoughts. Here's how to take reign over your emotional States and be very steady.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:12:12):

And when I did all of that stuff, I started seeing massive changes in my horses, massive changes in a good way. And so that then propelled me on other work with, okay, so what is it about my thoughts and emotions it's affecting these horses? How could they possibly be affecting this horse in the way that I see? And so that got me into a whole nother realm of looking at the science behind what is happening in our brains, what's happening in our hearts and what is it that's doing that? And it's all about the electrical activity that's going on when we switch between different emotions and we switch our thoughts. So we have a lot of thoughts. So that is kind of where I'm at, where it trends. It went from that very real world, sports, psychology, performance, psychology, to something that was more invisible that people maybe had a harder time thinking or understanding about, but it was all about energy. And when I got that piece of it, that it's about the energy that my body is producing and the horse is reading that energy and it's affecting their behavior. And when I could get to that point, I'm like, Eureka. This is it. How simple is that?

Warwick (00:13:37):

And

Dr. Susan Fay (00:13:38):

So basically what I do now is mostly just a lot of energy work with horses. I do less and less physical and more and more about checking in, where am I out emotionally? What do I want this horse to do? Can I make a visual image of what I want this horse to do in my mind? And in that way it changes my physiology and the horse reads that. And I just experiment with that with myself and clients. And they're having a lot of success with that. Just the simple things.

Warwick (00:14:10):

So how long have you been, have you been doing messing with this stuff?

Dr. Susan Fay (00:14:15):

Since I was about 15, it's funny. I, I really was studying a lot of this when I was younger and, and you know, how things progress over time, where you practice something, then you see results and you practice, and then you go find more information on it. So it's been a process since I was 15 years old and I'm 61 now. So I have done this a very long time, as far as the energy work, but it has gotten deeper. And actually when I wrote my book, it caused me to sit down and actually figure out what I was doing instead of just it Willy nilly and, you know, Oh, that works. And I just do it naturally. I had to think about it. If I'm going to teach people this, I need to know what I'm doing.

Warwick (00:15:01):

So you almost came that in came to that kind of back, not necessarily backwards, but you know, there's an old saying that says, you know, if you're a little, one of the lone headed, if you want to learn something really intimately teach it because in the, in the having to explain it to people, you almost have to explain it to yourself as well. And I've found that, you know, doing clinics, I'll be in the middle of the clinic and I'll be explaining something that I'd explained the a hundred times before, but I will just come out a different way and I'll get like a deeper insight. Like I will have a, an epiphany right there, like, Oh, I didn't, I didn't actually think about it that way before, but yes. You know, so I think explaining stuff to people or, or in, in your case having to write it down in a, you know, a non-tangible thing, write it down on paper to make a book that's gotta be, that's probably going to give you a, another level of insight to it. You probably didn't have before.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:16:01):

And you're absolutely right, because before I did the book, I, I knew this stuff and I did it. And, but actually writing the book made me go deeper actually into the research and, and more explanations, more ways to, what I like to do too, is take complex scientific theories and things like that and go, okay, how could we take that from that scientific journal or wherever we find that, that institution, that, that person came up with it and use it in some practical way to make people's lives better. And that's where I think doing the book really helped me delve into that and go, okay, this is a complex idea about how would I explain this really simply so that people could use it with their horse and see results right away. And that was my goal of, of writing the book is I don't want a book. That's so complicated. People give up because, well, that's just, that's science and my brain turns off. And so I can't do that. And I want people to know, yes, you can, you can do it just as well as I can, or if not better. And that's the beauty of this is I can teach it to somebody and they can be quickly come up and go. I just had success. This is awesome.

Warwick (00:17:23):

Yeah. Well, I'm halfway through the book. And so far, it's, it's nothing out of the ordinary to understand, you know, it's very simple and understandable. Just, I've got the book here in front of me and for you listeners it's called sacred spaces, but then the subtitle is communion with the horse through science and spirit. So science, the quantifiable and the spirit, the possibly the unquantifiable. And that's the I had Dr. Steven paid his own. He recently, you know, who's Dr. Stephen Peters is, Oh, yes, yes. Okay. Yeah. Well, he, it was interesting having him on because, you know, he's, he's was a neuroscientist he's retired now and whenever he presents or does anything, he has to have the science to back it up, but he's also got this, he's taken a deep dive into the whole spiritual side of it too. And he said, I'm so glad to be able to come on here and talk about this stuff.

Warwick (00:18:15):

Cause I can't really talk about it when I you know, when I present, because I have to be able to, I have to be able to present actual factual, you know, define stuff. And he says, this is great to get on here and talk about the, the, the, the woo woo part of it. So let me ask you, I've got some questions for you here because I just read out your bio. So how does want to end up being a professional musician, environmental scientist, wrench, or horse trainer, sports performance, consultant, hypnotherapist, and psychological health researcher in one lifetime.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:18:56):

You know, it's so funny. Cause I, I look at that and people, I think, well, people are going to look at that and think if she just really bored or did she make all that up, or how did all that transpire, how did one come into the other? And here's, here's kind of how that all worked out. So at 15 years old, my father was a musician, a professional musician and a teacher. And so being in that family, it was a requirement that you learned that musical instruments. So of course, you know, that, that was what I did. And when I was 15, he got me a job playing in a swing band. And I got that introduction to music and playing. And, and at that time, I w I was thinking about going into music as my thing, but something didn't pull me in that direction and where I grew up, it was all about being outside and in the mountains and hiking and observing nature.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:19:52):

And so when I went to school, I started in music, but then I went to go into environmental science because to me that was drawing me at the time and to, you know, my interests. And I thought, I, as a musician, what are my options as a woman in that timeframe? And it's a hard life. And did I really want to do that? And did I want to teach kids, play how to play music? You know, how to learn an instrument and believe me with my father, having kids come in and out of our house when we were younger and they were at seven o'clock in the morning on Saturday mornings, you could hear the altitude trumpet player and you could not sleep. So, you know, I think he had this other plan, you know, get up and do things, you know, but I thought, no, I don't think I want to do teaching of music and I want to do the environmental stuff.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:20:45):

So I did that for many years. I'll always had horses during all this stuff and writing and taking lessons. And, and as I got, when I got married and my ex-husband had been a doctor and he was done with all his schooling. And I, I said, well, you know, because I went through all that schooling with you, I think you need to we need to talk about where we're going to live. And so we both can be happy at a place that we, we choose. And he was also an outdoors type of person. And so we chose, Oh, let's move to Northwestern, Colorado, and have a ranch. And then you can do your, your environmental stuff there. And I can do my doctoring there and it's, it's perfect. And I found it a lot of what my environmental background gave me was how to do farming and ranching. And I also saw through that environmental thing, how everything is connected, we're always dealing with systems and relationships between those systems and, and horses and all that is just another part of that whole idea. And so, you know, I kind of just transitioned to that. Just found it very easy to look at horsemanship in the same way I did at the environmental stuff, that if something's wrong, somewhere in the system, the ecosystem you go and find out what happened and you go explore and find out where something went wrong.

Warwick (00:22:17):

Yes, it's, it's, it's all connected. That's the message that keeps coming back. No matter what I do, it's all connected in a, you mentioned something early on there that I have found is is a very common theme in, I've been reading some, quite a few books on shamanism you know, and, and traditional healers and stuff like that. And there's something that they all do as part of the learning is spend time sitting still in nature, observing, and there's, I think there's just something about that, that, that does something to a human, that you cannot get that any other way, being, being in nature and being still and being present. I think that does something to a person that, you know, like I said, there's no replacement for it.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:23:18):

And I absolutely agree with that. And I think that's why I'm here, where I am doing what I do now, because I had 20 years of being on a ranch in the middle of nowhere, not seeing people for maybe two weeks at a time other than my husband in and out. And I had to sit with animals. I observed what they did out there, the cattle, the horses, llamas, donkeys, whatever it was, wild animals. And I sat, like you say, in that silent place, because in the silence is where our brain integrates information and comes up with more ideas. And that's where I think I find it really sad for people that don't have the opportunity to do that and sit in silence and see what comes to you. And as humans, we're so busy all the time, and we're always, it's almost like the people that I run into feel very uncomfortable if they're sitting in a place of silence. And that's, that's just the opposite of me. I'm comfortable in that place of silence doing nothing, because I'm really not doing nothing.

Warwick (00:24:32):

Right. You know, you said before, when you, when you sit in silence in a place like that, it gives you, it gives your brain time to, I think you said something about come up with things, but do you think the brains actually coming up with things, or do you think it's tapping into some sort of collective consciousness?

Dr. Susan Fay (00:24:49):

I totally believe it it's our access to the collective consciousness. I don't believe that I came up with any ideas I have other than the fact that I could sit in silence and I know how to connect actually now in a very intentional way to that, I call it the internet of intuition. And that's where I work from when I'm with a horse. There's a lot of times where I go, I have no idea what to do something presented, or I'm working with some clients. And I just sit in this place of silence with the intention of connecting to that, and an idea will pop in. I'm sure you've had that same experience.

Warwick (00:25:30):

You know, I didn't, I'm really late to the party. And that's why I'm so excited to talk to you because I've, I don't know how, I don't even know how much you know about me. So, you know, if you're like, you're on my Facebook group. So obviously we're aware of who I am, but I don't know how much of my past, you know, of, but I'm, I'm kind of late to the party. And it's only been in the last four or five years, you know, but Oh, about five years ago, my wife bought a horse that I thought I could solve the issues that he had. And he really showed me that, Hey, you have no idea what you're doing because nothing I did previously work. And it wasn't like he had behavioral issues. Like he was doing anything silly, but he was just very, very shut down in his own head.

Warwick (00:26:19):

And he really made me take a step back and look for other, other ways, other things, things like that. And then because of that, looking for other ways and different things that led me to have, I don't know if you're much of a fan of Brenae Brown, but that led me to have, you know, Brunei Brent talks about well, I had a I had a breakdown. I'm like my therapist calls it a spiritual, the white neck, a lot of breakdown. I had, whatever that thing is. I had one of those and kind of turned my world on its head sort of thing. And that was about three years ago. So it's only been about three years that I've been you know, probably connected to everything and listening and, and, you know, I was very, very, very much in my head all my life, not in my body at all.

Warwick (00:27:10):

I, I I've had, I had a you know, a case of being shut down for most of my life. And so I'm, I'm new to the new, to the new to the party. But the thing in my with what I do, you know, traveling around the road, doing clinics every weekend, I get to work with 12 different horses and try different stuff. And once I started working with what it's from this book of yours, what seems to be, you've been doing for a long, long, long time you know, it just, it started rolling from there, but reading your book, it's like, Oh, 30 years ago you came up with the same stuff. I've come up with the last three years and it's not like I read it in your book and decided to implement it. It's just stuff that's, that's come to me. And so I, you know, I've never, I don't think I've been, ever been terribly intuitive, but I've never had any information coming in. You know what I mean? I've never had that sematic. I've never been in my own body to experience intuition of being stuck in my head sort of thing. So, yeah, I, I, I think it's, it's coming more and more, but it's in, you know, it's an, it's an undoing, quite a process of undoing stuff.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:28:28):

You're exactly right. Because there is you know, I guess in my lifetime, it was always such a natural part of who I was that I didn't think it being odd or abnormal. And so I just always went with it. I'm always at this place where, okay, I have this intellectual, I, I love the science and that intellectual part, but then I'm always using intuition to guide the science and then the science to guide the intuition. I know how science can help us find our intuition. And so we can't shut down either one. And we're just in that journey of, you know, helping right now, I'm trying to help people find out where do you find your intuition and how, how can you start to develop it more, make it stronger, believe in it. And that's what I love to see is people go, Oh, well, I was in here and I did this and I felt this. And I go, yeah, that's exactly right. That's exactly what I saw at the same exact time. And so it gives them that sense of, wow, I have intuition. I just don't know what it looks like for me. I just never paid attention to what it really is because it's always there.

Warwick (00:29:42):

Yeah. I think, I think for me you know, I'd never really paid attention to it, but I think I sh I think I may have shut it down very, very early on in life too. And I was talking to, they said, Oh, I have to get her on the podcast, but there's a lovely lady from California named Carrie Lake. Have you ever heard of Carrie Lake? Yeah. So Carrie is you know, to put it in a roundabout way, she's an animal communicator, but she teaches people how to do it. And she says, I'm not teaching you anything. I'm just hoping you remember, we all have this ability and, you know, it just gets tamped down over time by society and, you know, cult culture and all that sort of stuff. So, yeah, I think that's, that's really what's going on. So, you know, I said that the subtitle of your book is compassion with the horse through science and spirit.

Warwick (00:30:36):

And you're, you've got, you know, I spent a year doing a type of therapy called dialectical behavior therapy in 2018. It was, and they had this, one of the first things they started talking about. It was like this little Venn diagram thing. And it had there's basically right. Brain left brain, but it was, you know, it was one side was the emotional one side was the thinking side and the, and then the, the, the place where they cross in the middle, I forget what they called it right. Mind or something or other, but you seem to be very, very, very much in the middle of that thing. Whereas, you know, some of the people, cause I did individual and group therapy, but some of the people in the group therapy were very emotional and stuck in that emotional side. And I was completely stuck in the other side. Now we're trying to get us to go to the middle and you seem to have a you know, it's, instead of it being like a Venn diagram where these two circles cross slightly, it's almost like these two circles are on top of one another where everything is, is that the intuition and the highly analytical all in the one place at the same time.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:31:47):

Exactly. And I don't know, I think I credit my father and mother, they were both teachers and they encouraged this part of us were for all the kids where we did, of course the music, which is very much about the emotional feeling part, but also has a component of that left brain. You have to be able to read music, you have to know all that. And then they would encourage art things that we would do, you know, just fun little art projects or things that we would do. And I, I then at the same time, we were expected to be very intellectual and do well in school and to study and to Excel in those areas. So I think I can credit my father and mother for creating that, what we call the double double dominant is when you use left and right brain equally, essentially.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:32:38):

And for me now, I feel like, Oh, there's times where I engage more of my right brain because I'm going to be working with a horse and I need to be in that more feeling part of my brain instead of the intellectual part. And then I will go do some kind of statistical analysis that will require extreme diversion to that left brain place and, and doing all those equations and think different thinking of that stuff. It's more on the, the left brain left hemisphere, but at the same time I'm doing both you're right. Both at the same time. And I just think this is a perfect place to insert this little story that I have about I was in school and I'm doing a research and evaluation is the, the emphasis area that I have in my psychology degree. And so I was doing a lot of statistics and all this, and I was in the, the, one of the final statistical classes.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:33:36):

And it was just really hard and people were just freaking out and they're they're psychologists. So they, they tend to be more in the right brain. And so if they, they shut down whenever they get anything that has to do with numbers, so they would be freaking out and I'm like, Oh, I got this. But I finally came to a place where we got this assignment and the teacher said, okay, here it is. And turn it in next week. And I worked on it for three or four days and I was at a loss. I could not figure it out at all. And so I thought, okay, why, why can't I figure this out? Let me go ahead and do this process that I do, where I'm going to go to sleep. And I'm going to give a directive to my subconscious mind is I go to sleep and tell her to go to work on that problem.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:34:22):

And maybe in the morning, it should give me the answer. I'll know what the answer is. And I thought, this is my last resort. This is my last chance. So again, here I am, I'm going in shutting off that intellect intellectual side. I'm going into my subconscious in the dream state. And it's just how to directive figure out the answer to this problem. I should have specified I wanted at seven or eight in the morning. No, it came at two o'clock in the morning, all of a sudden in a dream or somehow it flashed the entire equation and how it fit together and what it did. And I got up and I went and did it on the computer and Willa, it worked. I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. And it said ability to access that other realm, where all the answers exist. We just need to know where to ask or who to ask. And it's often not the source we would have gone to. So I think it's going to be specific about what time you want it to come to you.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:35:26):

Right. So, you know, that was one of the lessons I learned is it's much more helpful if it comes at a normal waking hour, but, you know, I wasn't argue with that. And the funny thing was that I got, I got the answer, right? And one other guy that went to MIT got the answer, right? And the 50, some other people in the class did not. And the two of us got so many credit, extra credit points. Cause I guess this was such a difficult thing that we didn't even have to go do the final or do any more work for it, like the second half of this semester. But what I want to emphasize by telling this story is that it wasn't that I knew that answer within myself. I had to go outside of myself to a different place to find that answer. And what I think is, as we're working with horses, we have this, all these things that we know and techniques we know, and then we'll hit that block. Like you were saying, you hit that place where you didn't know, and that's when you access this other realm.

Warwick (00:36:40):

Wow. I guess, yes. I guess it's got to be looking for it. I mean, I that's gotta be for me these days. No, that's not hard to believe, but I think, I think for some people that's still got to be quite difficult to wrap their head around.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:36:58):

Oh, it's it absolutely is. And I think what our problem in our society has been is that we have never taught people how to use their own brain. We, we do. We teach kids that you learn information, you memorize it and then you do something, you know, you, you write it down on a test and that tells everybody, you know, how to do that. They don't teach you about anything, about your emotions, how your thoughts work, how you might access different parts of your brain, right. And left. And when they might be important for doing a certain task. And I think a lot of times kids fall through the cracks. If they're not good at the memorization and the regurgitation of facts and they actually think and operate in a different way and we're, we're not helping them. And I believe it's funny. I think I was watching something with William Shatner and he was doing this series and, and he was talking about, we know so much about the oceans and we know so much about space and we know so little about how the human brain actually works.

Warwick (00:38:13):

And

Dr. Susan Fay (00:38:14):

I think that's true.

Warwick (00:38:16):

He's pretty interesting, dude. He shows reining horses. So we used to see him at, he, we used to see him at the running shows quite a bit and yeah, he's pretty cool.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:38:28):

Yeah. I think, and like you're saying, it's hard for people to wrap their mind around a lot of what I do because it has it's brand new, well, it's not brand new. Let's put it that way. It's not brand new. It's just a brand new concept to a lot of people because it's not been emphasized. And I think about it, there's this guy back in, I think like the mid, early sixties and he came up with this theory called the diffusion of innovation. And what he talked about was how different new ideas become adopted and how they first are adopted by just a few people. And then there's this other group of people that sit back and watch and see what happens to that first group of people they're called the early adopters and see what happens with them as they, they delegate through this new idea or new concept.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:39:26):

And, and so the, there's not a very high percentage of people that, that are those first adopters to a new idea. It's only about 12 and a half percent of the population, 13% or something to that effect. So that's a very small group of people and they work for a long time and they do different things with this new idea and test it out and experiment with it and see if it works. And those other people sit back and say, I'm just going to see how that works out for them, because I'm not sure I want to jump off where I'm at now and just adopt that. And then as time goes on, then these I think they call them the early majority and they come on and then they start doing it because they seen other people have success. And then there's a late majority.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:40:21):

They come after they've watched these other people and they don't want to lose out on the new idea. They, so they jump on board and then there's always that group of people that no matter what, they can't accept any new idea. And so they just stay where they're always at, but it's tough being on that place of coming up with new ideas because you get the scrutiny, you get the eye rolls. Like I said, I've been so many times, Oh, that can't possibly work. And so coming across that 13 and a half percent of people who are early adopters, that's not a lot of people out there are willing and brave to jump on.

Warwick (00:41:01):

You know, I think at least in my case I was, I was lucky enough the way the whole thing went down to where I I think I S I, I think I had some credibility with, you know, quite a large number of people before I started in, on this, this rabbit hole. And, and it's been you know, like written your book I'm yeah. I figured that out. Yeah. I figured that out. I figured that, but I didn't figure it all out at one time. So it wasn't like, I, all of a sudden was spitting out everything you're talking about in this book. I kind of had one bit of an idea. So it was basically what I used to do, but slightly different. And then I kind of incorporated that slightly different to what I, what I, what I do. And I think people were, yeah, that's, I'm good with that. And then it got a little further and a little further, a little further. So I kind of titrated the whole, this whole wackadoodle stuff to a lot of people to where it wasn't this huge, big, a huge big crazy thing. So, yeah, I didn't get it. I didn't, I didn't, haven't got as much eye rolling as you would have had to put up with over the years.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:42:19):

Yeah. And that's okay. Cause I, I, I think it's all, I, I really appreciate people like you who are brave enough to go, I'm going to talk about this thing and bring it up so that it becomes part of the conversation and that we can begin to think about these things in a different way, like you said, and I don't believe anything in my book is not what a lot of horse people have already done. I'm just reminding them that they do it and I'm encouraging them. I'm giving them permission to do it. And I'm giving them the science behind why, what they're doing is working.

Warwick (00:42:58):

Yeah. I think some, yeah, some, I think a lot of people maybe do it without even being aware. They're doing it, especially I think especially talented people. I had I had Patrick King on my podcast here a little while ago. And he was actually out here visiting recently. And he does a lot of in classical dressage in hand work. And he was showing me, he bought one of his Kevin's with me, with him. And he was showing me what he does with it. And he had it on my wife's horse, Ray, and he was out in the arena. And so he's just standing beside the horse and he's got his hand on the nose piece of this cavern. And he started working on some stuff standing still, but then he started working on some stuff while walking around, basically backwards. So he's in front of the horse facing him, facing the horse, and he's got the Capitan in his left hand and he's kind of walking around backwards in an arc. And I forget what it was. I asked him and he said, Oh yeah, yeah, I've got a, I've got a sucking energy in my abdomen while I'm doing this, but I'd been watching him for half an hour. And he hadn't mentioned, you know, he was, he was telling me exactly what he was doing, but he wasn't telling me what he's doing energetically. And he goes, Oh, Oh yeah, of course you're doing that.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:44:21):

And, and that's why I love studying those people that would I, at the beginning of this, when I was saying I was studying those people, like, I don't know how they were doing that. And I need to find out what are they doing that makes them different. And it's that invisible thing that nobody really talks about because for the people that have always done it, it's so natural. They don't even think like, well, of course, you know, I shouldn't even have to mention that. Right. For Patrick.

Warwick (00:44:46):

Yeah. And you know, for me, I no longer train horses for other people. You know, I trained horses for the public for 25 years. And I actually think not knowing this stuff was very helpful for that because I could, I could train a horse for somebody and hand it to them and it would work the same for them as it did for me because this rain meant this and this rain meant that, and this ligament, this and this ligament that, but there wasn't that, that energetic there wasn't an energetic exchange part of it. And I, and I think, I think me kind of being shut down on heaven, having no like internal energy, like that was just completely dead. I kind of taught horses to not read that part. So then someone can come along and have a bit of inner turmoil or whatever, and it doesn't really affect them because I, I I've, I kind of, you know, it wasn't like I had a lot of inner turmoil and I taught the horse to not respond to that.

Warwick (00:45:53):

I just had no inner energy, so that, that didn't factor into it. And so I think it, it may have been almost helpful to be a trainer for the public to be able to churn out horses that, that work for anybody sort of thing. But the these days, I, I, I don't think I could actually do that because there's just so much to the, to what you're thinking and how you're thinking and what you're feeling and what you're doing with your energy that comes into it. That I, I, I really don't think I could train horses for the public anymore.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:46:25):

And I got to that realization early on. And I, I'm glad you mentioned that because what I want people to understand about when you begin to train a horse using this energy with very clear intention, I'm thinking this, you do that. The horse gets used to that. The horse expects that you're going to speak to him in that way, through the energy. And then they get the person that's not, let's say you sell that horse. And it goes to a new home, and that person has all those conflicts, emotional and mental conflicts. And then the horse has gone, wait, I have no idea what to do with this. No idea at all. And so I, early on, I felt like I did a disservice to my horses by training them through this energy and then sending them out to a place. And then the person going, calling me up going, well, this horse isn't trained to do this.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:47:17):

It just freaked out on this, or it did that. And I could not for the life of the figured out what was going on until just recently, when I really understood more about the part of this. And, and so you're right. I, I don't, I would like to think when people come to me that what they're wanting is they've got their own horse and they're saying, I want a better connection. That's the universal answer to what would you want from your horse for all of the clients that come to me, I want a deeper connection. And so then it's that invitation to go, okay. So here's what we can do to do that. But you're right. If you want a horses, can anybody could ride that safe out there that can tolerate a lot of turmoil, then probably look and do something different. Although I do have horses that I can put people on that have a lot of turmoil and they're steady enough in themselves and confident enough that they can they'll do the, I look at me like, and I just kind of go, yeah, you got this. And they'll, they'll take care of them because they were trained through kindness, through compassion and empathy. And these horses don't have a mean bone.

Warwick (00:48:34):

Yeah. I don't think any horses, I mean, burned really? No. You know, and it's funny how your perspectives about all sorts of things change over the years and, and, you know, these days, I don't, I don't really look at things as, as you know, that horses do as problems, but just, just as very clear communication on, on, you know, on, on their part on the horse, but

Dr. Susan Fay (00:49:05):

Yes. And, and I think people, what I run into is like, well, can you fix this problem for my horse? And really what they're asking is can you fix this behavior? And yeah, you could fix the behavior, but another behavior is going to come in to replace it, unless you find out what the root cause. Where did the communication, where did the communication breakdown between you and the horse, and where did that horse feel like? It didn't understand something in, it need to keep escalating behaviors until you had no choice, but to pay attention because the behavior came. It was not a surprise. A lot of times I'm like, well, that's not a surprise that that behavior showed up. People want you to yeah. Fix the symptom, the behavior, the symptom, but no, we've got to go to the root cause what caused that behavior? Because every horse you've ever owned will have that same behavior. If you don't figure out what you're doing.

Warwick (00:50:05):

Right. And I, you know, I, all the way along with them before, you know, four years ago, I was always working on fixing the you know, the, the, the, cause not the, not the symptom that I actually think these days, that a lot of times the actual symptom is the person's perception of what's going, you know, that's Oh, sorry. The problem really is the person's perception of what's going on. And yesterday I was, I was outside building a fence and I was listening. I listened to a lot of audio books and I was really listening for, I don't know how many, the umpteenth time to Eckhart toll is a new earth. There was a quote in there because I had on my Facebook group in the last couple of days, I've had several people on there saying my horse does this, what should I, how do I fix that?

Warwick (00:50:54):

And it's it's, for me, it was more their, their perception of the energy they had in there and their judgment and stuff of what was going on rather than what was going on. It was the problem. And so I posted this quote on my Facebook group last night. So just imagine this being an echo, total is two tonic voice. You know this is when obstacles or difficulties arise in the work. When things don't go to their expectation when other people or circumstances are not helpful or cooperative, instead of immediately becoming one with the new situation and responding to the requirements of the present moment, they react against the situation. And so separate themselves from it. There's a, me that feels personally offended or resentful and a huge amount of energies burnt up in useless protest or anger energy that could be used for solving the problem. If it were not miss being misused by the ego, what's more, this anti-energy creates new obstacles and opposition. And then I said, orange captain, Jack Sparrow puts it. The problem is in the problem, your attitude about the problem is the problem.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:52:12):

Exactly. Isn't that beautiful? And it's, it's so appropriate.

Warwick (00:52:16):

Yeah. I mean, I just, you know, I've really you know, one of the, one of the big lessons I learned from my year of dialectical behavior therapy was about judgment. And, you know, one of the exercises we had to do for that was this week, your exercise for homework is to count your judgmental thoughts. And when they said that, I thought, Oh, this will be easy. I'll have about three each day, you know? And they said, you know, get one of those little clickers, like the bounces have the, you know, when people go in and out of nightclubs or, or like try and conduct as have, you know, just a little clicker thing, or they said, put some rocks in one pocket. And you know, when you have a judgmental thought, move the rock over to the other side. And I thought, yeah, well, I'll be able to put three rocks in my pocket.

Warwick (00:53:01):

And during the day I'll gradually transfer from one side to the other one. I have these three judgemental thoughts I'm going to have during the day. And the first day I started on that, I had 21 before breakfast and I just realized how many judgemental thoughts I have about everything. And then, and then I really noticed that with the horses, that instead of being able to see what they're doing for what it is, you haven't, you, you judge it and have a story attached to it. And then that changes your inner energy, which creates, you know, like the last line of this thing of [inaudible], what's more, this anti-energy creates new obstacles and opposition and it's yeah. Having, having that judgment about things and, you know, labeling it and, you know, quantifying and all that sort of stuff, it just changes your energy and actually makes the problem worse.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:54:00):

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think it's beautiful that how stories can really change relationships with people's horses and telling, instead of telling the story about everything that's wrong, like you said, that there's that energy associated with the judgment, this is wrong with my horse. That's wrong with my horse. Instead, I have them switch that it's like, let's not talk about any of that. Let's make a new story. You're going to run the new story for your horse. What do you, what do you say is, is the greatest thing you, your horse does? And you, you build him up with the energy because when you talk in a positive way, you're going to create positive emotions and you're going to have positive thoughts and the horse is going to feel those, and it's going to feel better about itself because when you come in, what does the horse want to do?

Dr. Susan Fay (00:54:49):

He wants to feel good about himself. If he feels good about himself, when he's around you, he's going to want to be around you. And it's as simple as that. And so change the story. It's beautiful. And I love the way you're looking at it. And we all are thinking the same things, but maybe saying it in a little different way. But hopefully as many times as people hear these things said in different ways and they, they start to look at it and they'll start to incorporate that into their own way to do it and the own way to think about it. And I I'm just commending you for taking these steps. Cause I don't see a lot of the other horse men on the, you know, that have this wide audience as you and Noah talking about these things other than maybe the Ritters and in Spain, I think, and you know, a few little pockets of people around,

Warwick (00:55:44):

Well, that's the funny thing is this stuff is not, it's not out there. And, you know, I had to, it's funny. I had a, I had a a thing happened at a clinic here at my house in 2017, I think. And it was during a clinic and, and there was a thing happened where I started looking at things quite a bit differently. And I've got a friend of mine, her name's Katie and the grantee and she trains horses too. And she was here at the clinic and she was staying in her trailer outside. So the clinic was over it Sunday night, I'm actually in bed and I'm on the left, on my laptop looking up something or other. And I came across this article and I forget who it was by, but this article was like, that's it right there. And I sent it to Katie who was outside on the trailer and she's like, and she read the article.

Warwick (00:56:38):

She's like, yeah, that's it right there. That's what we figured out this weekend in this clinic. And it's, but it's, this stuff is not, it's not mainstream, you know, which is why I had to, like, I didn't learn it. I had to figure it out for myself. Cause I w you know, if it had been out there being taught, I'd have been doing it. Cause I think once you, once you see this stuff, you can't unsee it, but it's just not, it's just not, it's not nice for him. It's just, like you said, it's school kids are not taught. They're taught about emotions. You're not taught about your energy. You're not taught about really how you know, how we work. You know, we're taught a lot of stuff that it has nothing to do with it. And yeah, it's just, it's just not mainstream, but you know, if it had been someone else would have taught me how to do it, instead of me trying to figure it out, I'm just looking at your book right here. Just look, I haven't been very much further. I think I flipped through it the other day, but do you have something in here on HeartMath

Dr. Susan Fay (00:57:50):

Oh, yes. It's in that first or second chapter, I believe. I'm pulling my book up there. Right.

Warwick (00:57:57):

Well, I don't need to know about the book. I want to have it. I don't want to, I want to hear you talk about heart math because I find that stuff fascinating. Cause the heart math Institute is actually about 45 minutes drive from where I live it's up in, I think it's in Boulder Creek, which is up above Santa Cruz in the mountains there. What's, what's your, what was your introduction to HeartMath and maybe we can talk a little bit about it for people who don't know much about it.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:58:22):

Yeah. I had, of course I've been working with a lot of people that were doing therapy and they kept matching heart math and I'm like, what's that? What's that during my schooling time. And I was still there and I, I really didn't look into it a whole lot at that time. And then when I was done and it really, I had it in the back of my mind, I'd looked it up and just kind of cursory look through it and all that. And, and it wasn't until I sat down, I was reading my book and I was thinking about emotions and I thought, Oh, heart math. I need to go in more detail on that because I believe that's the huge part of what's going on here as far as the connection that we have with our horses. So I looked into the heart map and I realized essentially, in a nutshell, it's about when we have different emotions, each emotion creates a wave of energy and it's sent into the field around us.

Dr. Susan Fay (00:59:22):

So they can measure this energy field created by the heart outside of our bodies. And all the research they've done is shown that there's different emotions. If you have very negative emotions, it'll create this wave of energy that comes off of you. That's very spiky and just irregular. And it actually eventually leads to you having health issues or having problems in, I don't know, staying relaxed and, you know, communicate, I'm having trouble here. I'm looking up here and just saying, I'm looking at all the different ways that it affects your body when you have a negative emotion and it affects all your physiology. And so they're looking at all of that. And then on the flip side is they're looking at when you have a positive emotion, the wave that comes off of your heart and into the energy field that they can measure has a very smooth feel to it.

Dr. Susan Fay (01:00:27):

It looks very smooth and you've probably been around somebody that you immediately got in their presence, and you could feel that love. And what they were doing was that heart wave that they were sending out was smooth and it felt good. And translating this to the horses, what I'll have people do is play with the different emotions. Let's go through some emotions and see how your horse reacts to that. And the horse can detect that electrical activity further away than the machines could they, they, I think they can detect human heart energy from like 50 feet away. That's a long way. And you will, I will have people play with different emotions and sending them out and you'll watch the reaction from the horses. And you'll see very specific reactions that you cannot deny. You know, they'll say, Oh, that was crazy. That horse just did this.

Dr. Susan Fay (01:01:27):

And I'll say, well, okay, let's do it again. Let's see if we get the same reaction. So we'll do something else for a little bit. Now we're going to go recreate that emotion again, send it out. And I send it out through my breath and through my imagination. I just imagine that it's going out and sending in that direction. And the horse does the same exact thing again. Interesting. And one of the little exercises that I love to do with people is when they're in and they're saying, I, my horse won't connect my horse. Won't connect with me. Look, he's off eating grass. And I say, well, let's do becoming the cookie. Let's figure out what emotion that horse really likes, and that draws his attention to you. And so we'll play with it and I'll help them go through different emotions. And then we find the one, the horse looks up, Oh, we got his attention. You stopped eating grass for a second. He looked over, okay, now let's do more of that one. And let's create that very strong in our mind and in our body and just breathe that emotion in our imagination. And nine times out of 10, very quickly, the horse comes over and is right there. And we found the emotion that horse likes the most, and it's such a beautiful thing. And people get to see the reaction of the horse in real time. And, and they have the total control over that.

Warwick (01:02:57):

Well, now I feel like a Neanderthal.

Warwick (01:03:04):

You know, I, I did a podcast with Leslie Desmond recently, and there was a, a story that I'd heard from a friend of mine who's who witnessed it at a private clinic in Sweden that Leslie was doing and in know how legends are born, you know, like somebody does something and somebody sees it and then, but they see it differently than what actually happened. And then, then they repeat the story. Their story is different than what happened. And then someone hears it and then they repeat it and it's different. And it ends up, you know, it's like Chinese whispers. And the story that I'd heard was that this, that they were walking down a road between some pastures to go and get another horse or something for this clinic. And Leslie had been talking about getting a horse to do things where they're actually doing anything physically, like just through mental stuff.

Warwick (01:03:59):

And there was the story. I heard that there was five horses out in this pasture, like for sorrel horses and a Bay horse eaten grass out in a pasture. And Leslie said to these people, Hey, I'll show you what, I mean, I'm going to get the Bay horse to come over here to the fence. And so there's five of them out there. And Leslie stands at the fence and looks out there. And after a few minutes that Bay horse lifts its head up and kind of looks around like, you know, it's got like a feeling of something and it looks over towards the fence and walks over to him. And the other four don't even lift their heads up. And I had heard that and I've always thought back that couldn't be possible. So the other day I asked the guy, I, I hit her up and I said, okay, tell me, I want to know if this friend of mine, you know, if we're playing Chinese whispers and it happened completely differently than that. And I told her the story, she goes, Nope, that's how it happened.

Dr. Susan Fay (01:04:56):

And, and that's where it's, you know, changing people's perceptions of what can be with your horses. And, and they think, Oh, well, Leslie doesn't of course she can do that. Right. And, and that's the thing I want people to understand is like, yes, she can do that. And so can you, and it's, here's, here's these things, these, these invisible that we do, and boy, you're going to be just amazed at what's happening with your horse. And, and for me, it would be like, of course she could do that because that's the world I live in. Of course you can, you know, it it's like, it doesn't seem abnormal, but I don't realize that there's so many people going, that's crazy. I don't believe that what's going on. I don't get it. What, you know. So I think that's where, as we're bringing this, these different ideas and concepts in for people to play with for themselves, prove to yourself, you can do this, you can do this.

Warwick (01:05:55):

Yeah. You know, I think for me, I don't know how many people out there like me, but for me, I would have struggled to do this stuff four years ago because I had, I wasn't, I wasn't in touch with me. You know what I mean? I, you know, I was in my head, but I was not in my body. And so, you know, I've done quite a bit of sematic experiencing stuff since, and yeah, I'm a bit, I'm a bit more in my body and I, and I can do it, this stuff a little bit that you're talking about, but I really think sometimes people are not, you know, I don't know what you think, but I think sometimes some of this stuff would be too far, not advanced, but people aren't in touch with themselves enough to be you to be able to use their energy and emotions to get in touch with the horse. What do you think about that?

Dr. Susan Fay (01:06:52):

Absolutely. And I totally agree with you because that's why I do these go out and work with people. One-On-One because I can go in and I will ask people, okay, tell me what emotion you're having. And they say, I don't have one. I say, yes, you do. Let's, let's look at this. And we'll, they'll, they'll tell me, well, I'm thinking this. It's like, no, I want your emotion feeling. And they'll keep going back to another thing. Well, I I'm thinking that this, no, just sit here for a minute in the quiet space with your breathing. And we're going to find an emotion because you're right. So many people are shut down because of our society because of what we do. And we're always on the fast lane and emotions, aren't for something we're supposed to pay attention to, you know, that those are in the way those are troublesome. We don't need any of those, but we can only control ourselves when we know who we are. And we know the emotions that we're creating, and we know how to either go with them, get information from them or in this case start to use them in our horsemanship. And so, yes, a lot of what I feel like I'm teaching is the very basics of, okay, what's an emotion.

Warwick (01:08:07):

Yeah. Cause like, for me, I, I, you know, like I said, I didn't have any and it'd be, it's funny when I first started seeing different therapists, they go, so how does it make you feel? I'm like it doesn't. And then I got to where I, I did start feeling some stuff and, and, and for me, you know, I re I, you know, you just said, yes, you are, you have an emotion, you've got to find out what it is. I really believe I w I wasn't having emotions because once I started having them, I was like, Whoa, there's an alien in my body. You know, I thought that, what the hell is that? So it wasn't like they were there. And I wasn't, I just wasn't listening to it. I really don't think there was a huge part of my life. I don't think there was, there was anything that there were some, but the, the, they were very limited.

Warwick (01:09:04):

You know, for me, it was like heartbreak being in love, fear and dread that's the, that was basically the, the range I had and so on. And if you think about the only positive, one of those was the being in loved one, which is why I was, I've always been a bit of a romantic sort of a thing. Cause that that's the one way I could get that. Whoa, that, that feeling, you know what I mean? I, other things didn't give me that feeling. So but yeah, I really didn't experience things at all. And when I, you know, when I started having emotions, how old is care? Like watching TV was like watching it in 3d. Like if you're watching a drama and something happens, it's like in what was it? Was it Aldous? Huxley's brave new world where they go to the feelies, you know, they go to the movies, but they get plugged in and you feel, you know, you get sensations of what's going on on the screen. It was like that. And it was Holy cow. Wow. I I'd be sitting on the couch with Rob and I'm like, Whoa, this is crazy.

Dr. Susan Fay (01:10:04):

And you're totally true. It's like how many people you come across? How many people I run into? It's like, that's not part of their internal vocabulary. They don't even know what to look for. Don't even know it exist. And you know, and I've, I've worked with a woman recently we were in the round pen and we're trying to connect with their horse. And I said, okay, what about the emotion? She goes, I don't have any, cause I just push them down. And so I can't, I can't create any. I said, okay. So what we're going to do is we're just going to breed here. And I love the concept of entrainment, which is that the energy waves start to copy each other. If you can hold a strong energy wave you'll cause all the other waves in that field surrounding you to, to copy that and become that.

Dr. Susan Fay (01:10:52):

And so I said, okay, what I'm going to do is put that in my body. And then you're going to just sit here for a little bit or stand here, whatever she was doing. And you're going to let me know when you start to sense something is different just since, and she's like, Oh, Oh, okay. Wow, weird. Just like you said, wow, that's weird. That's alien. And I think, you know, so much of the work that I do it, you know, it started in the horse world, training horses doing that, but I realized that was not where it needed to keep going. It needed some emphasis on the human part, how our horse is going to help us become better humans.

Warwick (01:11:37):

I think that's a great line right there because I think horses do help us become better humans. And I've said it before with different guests on the podcast that I've had a lot of feedback from people, you know, like an email or a private message or whatever, saying that, Oh yeah. Since I've been doing your stuff with the horses, it's really, it's really changed my life. And I'm really different with my husband and with my kids or with my coworkers or whatever. And they said I would never have made those changes for my husband or my kids or my coworkers. But, you know, it seems like people will, when they're passionate about the horses, they will do whatever it takes to get along with them. And sometimes that's, you know, that's personal changes. And like I said, people have said, Oh, I would never have done that much work on myself or my husband or my kids or my job or whatever. But I did it for the horse. And I think that's something that that's very special about them is that they it's almost like they, they provide the impetus to do that, you know?

Dr. Susan Fay (01:12:45):

And I think that's so beautiful. And that's why I wanted to write the book, not from the place of, here's another technique to use for your horse, but from the place of how can we make our horses lives better. And I think that's the motivation for people to make a change. Like you said, well, it's well, it's for my horse. Well, of course I will do anything to make my horses life better. And in the process, unbeknownst to them, they make their own lives better.

Warwick (01:13:15):

Yeah. And I, a lot of times I think by the time they get to that point, they've exhausted. Every other thing, you know what I mean? Because, because the whole horse community, it's, it's not set up to where, when you're having a problem with your horse, you look inwards first. It's like, well, we'll sell you something to, to, to fix the problem, you know, where there's a piece of equipment or a supplement or a, you know, whatever.

Dr. Susan Fay (01:13:43):

Right. And, and you're right. All those things make people just look more externally for the answer rather than internally.

Warwick (01:13:52):

Yeah. And, and I totally under, you know, that's, there's no judgment behind that. That's I totally understand that's how our society works. And that's how you know, a lot of us are you know, that's part of our culture, but, but I think, I think it's good. You get to the people, get to the place where they almost want to give up. And I go, well, I'll try this crazy wackadoodle stuff here. And then, and then you get in the rabbit hole because then you, you know, you cannot, I, I really think you, you, you can't make those changes only if your horse, because once you make those changes, it, it affects every, every interaction you have with everyone and everything in your life.

Dr. Susan Fay (01:14:39):

Yeah. It's absolutely true. And it, it's interesting that when I wrote the book, I, I sent a copy to my father and he's written all sorts of books on parenting and child psychology and all those kinds of things and relationship. He was a musician. He was, but then he he's like me. Of course he was, but then he did this other thing. And then he went in, he B he started a company and he, he did all this child psychology and parenting and he would, he read my book anyway. And he says, wait, Susie, this isn't a book about horses. Is it, is this book about people? And I said, Oh, you got that one right away. Okay. That's true. It's for both. But yeah, he, he realized that that's it, the scope of it is beyond just horses. It's, it's hopefully encompasses more in. And I think it's just the introduction, the introduction to start thinking about these things. It's not the, how to, you can do get everything, six book, it's an introduction. And now you go on your own seeking journey and find these things out for yourself and find people to help you with these things. And, you know, just watch what happens.

Warwick (01:15:59):

Yes. Yeah. It's pretty amazing stuff. You know what I might do now? If you don't mind, I might start asking you some of the questions that you had told me you wouldn't mind

Dr. Susan Fay (01:16:10):

Answering. Oh, well, certainly,

Warwick (01:16:12):

Certainly. So the first one you picked out is what is the luckiest thing that's ever happened to you?

Dr. Susan Fay (01:16:19):

Okay. I talked about that at the very beginning of this call, the day that you contacted me and the whole book got in your hands. I am putting that with a big star of the luckiest day of my life. Okay. So there you go. It's all your fault.

Warwick (01:16:36):

I think that's funny right then very, very funny. Oh my goodness. Now this next question, I'm pretty sure I know what it is, but I want, I really want to know your take on it. What do you feel is your true purpose in the world?

Dr. Susan Fay (01:16:54):

I believe my true purpose in the world is to be a, a seed and put a seed of a different way of thinking into people's psyche into their soul, into their mind, and just start them on their journey of exploration. And I think just because of my age, I kept thinking I'm running out of time. I'm running out of time. I've done nothing. I need to do something. And, and what is my purpose? And I think, well, just doing that, just the book was a big part of what is my purpose. I need to write this down. I need to get people thinking about this in a bigger way. And that's kind of what I want to leave this world going. I can, I didn't just achieve things for myself. Maybe I made life better or different for even just one person or one person in their horse.

Warwick (01:17:52):

Yeah. You can't see any right now, but I'm giving you a big fist bumper out there. Like that's the stuff, that's the stuff right there. Yeah. I kind of feel the same way. Okay. What's the most worthwhile thing you've ever put your time into. This is going to be the book again, isn't it? What is the most worthwhile thing? You put your time into something that you've done that changed the course of your life.

Dr. Susan Fay (01:18:15):

And I believe this has been a theme throughout my life, the one, and I would call it a skillset. The ability to make mental images, very clear mental images has been the thing that has changed my life for the better. I don't realize how often I do it until I really think about it. Every time I go to do something, I actually go through that thing in my mind beforehand. And then I see it transpire in much, a similar way. And if I were to encourage anybody if you were to pick one thing to do, it would learn how to do that. Go back to being a kid and use your imagination and figure out how to think of something before you do it. And that way you see what might go wrong or what might go, right. And you can play out all different scenarios. And it's beautiful. I, I did it when I was a musician. I would just play the song once I would go through it in my mind and imagine myself playing it again and again, and I didn't really have to practice because I practiced in my mind. So I think that's the thing that changed the course of my life. More than anything else.

Warwick (01:19:34):

Have you ever heard of Dr. Joe Dispenza? Yes. You know, and some of his books, they talk about where they, where they got people to, you know, practice lifting weights. And then they had another group of people, mentally practice lifting weights, and they had a third set of people who didn't do anything. And just the, just the, the people who you know, just mentally practiced lifting weights mentally went through that, picturing it. And the whole thing, you know, they had almost as much of a change, the people who were actually lifting weights.

Dr. Susan Fay (01:20:11):

Yes. And, and that is one of the things that whole concept of Dr. Dispenza. And he has horses too, which I think is really fascinating. Yes. I think he has, he used to talk about a lot about his, his stallion that he would ride and doing different things, but it's, it's how we take that skill and put it into our writing. And then just watching that one thing, change a whole bunch of stuff with your writing and your horses relationship with you. I think if I, like I said, if somebody says you only have one skill, you could keep, it's like, well, I'll keep that one and I'll keep developing that one.

Warwick (01:20:51):

So, so this is a question I ask people that I think can do it. So can you get your horse to do things by mentally picturing what you want them to do? Okay. My next question, this is the one I really want to know is, cause I asked Leslie, there's been this one the other day. What perspective do you picture it from, from your perspective, from the horses perspective, from like a bird's eye view perspective, looking down, what, what, what is the mental picture?

Dr. Susan Fay (01:21:26):

Okay. So let me put myself in that situation.

Warwick (01:21:31):

So you don't even know what you do do, you gotta, you gotta,

Dr. Susan Fay (01:21:34):

I do different depending on this. See, this is one of those, it depends questions. So let's say a lot of times I'll do this demonstration with people in the horse and I'll stand by the horse and I'll say, okay, in just a second, I'm going to ask him to move his front foot back a step. And before I even get the words out, he's already done it. And so I'm also picturing to him that his foot has gone back and I'm sending that picture to him in his mind. So I'm in my place, but here's the important part. I send that picture to an intention of love or fun or joy or something. It's the carrier emotion. That is the important part of getting that to work consistently. And I think that's what people leave out. And I I've, I've found that that, well, if I go, wouldn't it be fun if you moved your back foot back there.

Dr. Susan Fay (01:22:33):

And so I can feel that like kind of joy or wonder or something coming up in me and then the horse, like, I'm just thinking that, and he's doing it already. Like, wow, he is quick. And Oh, I mean horses, I don't know horses. I've never seen before. And so that's, what's interesting. Yes, you can do it. It takes some mental practice. So don't go out there and think, Oh, I'm going to do it and I didn't get it done. And now I'm a failure. No, no. This is about knowing you didn't, you didn't put in there an idea that it wasn't going to work or Dr. Face silly and she's insane. And like, you know, there was no other thought in there other than, Oh boy, wouldn't it be fun if you moved your foot. Oh, thanks. Thanks. Thanks for doing that. You know? And, and so it's, the intention is important, but the way you say it is important in your energy,

Warwick (01:23:32):

You know, I didn't know what the hell happened right then, but in the middle of that, I got this feeling, Oh, this is a weed. Cause I, I'm only new to having feelings. I got this sensation in my chest. Right. Then that was very, very strong, like a very strong sematic sensation. And I don't even remember what that was.

Dr. Susan Fay (01:23:57):

Wow. So maybe it resonated somewhere within your, your body that that was,

Warwick (01:24:05):

Hey Haley, careful. I'll get some weird stuff. Yeah. And I'm sure there are people listening who were thinking right then I could never do that. But for anybody who's listening who thinks you can't do that? Just picture a time when you were hosing your horse off and you were thinking, please don't step on the hose. How many times have you been hosing your horse? And the water stops. You look down on your horse has got his back foot on the hose. And that's probably what you were thinking. The whole time was done. Step on the hose. Don't step on the hose. Don't step on the hose. And you can't think anything that says don't all, all, you know, you, you, can't not picture a pink elephant. Very cool. Okay. I'm going to ask you another question while I'm sitting here with my chest pain.

Dr. Susan Fay (01:24:57):

Oh, I'm so sorry.

Warwick (01:24:58):

That's all right. That's all right. It's not chest pain, but it's, it's a strong sensation. It's still there, so. Oh, good. Okay. I love this question. I love people's answers to this one because it really, if you haven't figured, if someone hasn't figured out yet, that failure is a good thing. I love people entering these questions. This question is what is your biggest failure and how has it helped you?

Dr. Susan Fay (01:25:26):

Okay. See, and that, that one is where I have to go back and make the pictures of the time that this happened and it's painful. And I don't like to go back, but I think it's important to go every time we have a failure, it's just information it's information on. Okay, next time I'll do it different that didn't work. I need to find a different way. And so this is kind of a little bit of a story and I'll make it as short as I can here. I had a chance when I was in Western Colorado on the ranch and I had some young horses and someone was coming into town to do a coat starting clinic. And I I'm, I'm so excited. I've got the perfect candidate. He's just ready. I'm ready. I'm going to go to this thing. And in a nutshell, we were on.

Dr. Susan Fay (01:26:11):

Everything was going well. And then this person flagged me and my horse into the roping chute face forward. We had nowhere to go. And then they stood behind me with the flag and continued to flag until the horse just had no options, like what is going on? I have no options that just blow up. And so of course, I come off face plant in front of the entire town, right. And it's humiliating. And being me, I get back on, he does it two more times, same exact scenario, and then tells me, you have no business starting horses. You're not big enough. You're not strong enough. You're not like me. And it was the turning point in my life. The failure of like I thought I was a decent horse person. And look, I just got booked off three times at the same clinic within a few minutes.

Dr. Susan Fay (01:27:05):

And really, I should just hang it up. I need to quit thinking this. I need to quit my dream. I need to quit all of this. I have no business. And I sat on that for several days. And it's funny again, how the universe or God comes in and says, Oh, wait, my husband comes home that day from work and goes, Oh my secretary there, the receptionist says that her daughter teaches natural horsemanship. She's up in Montana. So she's going to do a clinic in about a week and said, you know, encourage you to go. And it took everything I had to go to that clinic because I was so humiliated. I was so devastated. And it was the best thing that ever happened. It set me on a different course, entirely a different way of looking at natural horsemanship from a woman's perspective and a woman who was my size, who was small, who was not, you know, the big burly guy that has all the strength and power and force that I would never have. And so there we go. The biggest failure was the thing that propelled me to where I'm at now. And I'm so thankful for that

Warwick (01:28:21):

Sounds like quite the failure. Wow. Yep. I think those things, I think in instances like that, you kind of, you learn a lot, you learn you're the learn the way you want to do things, or they will learn the way you don't want to do things. Okay. Next question. Where do you find motivation or inspiration for what you do?

Dr. Susan Fay (01:28:51):

I find the motivation is in the horse itself for me to go, wait, I've got information that can make horses lives better. And then when I go and work with a client in their horse, I'm inspired because usually what happens is something I couldn't even have imagined. And so they provide me with that ongoing inspiration that yes, keep doing this because I always think, well, if somebody doesn't cry after the session that I didn't do a good job and cry in a good way, not the way I cried at that clinic that I got bucked off on, but cry because things were different and things from now on, we're going to be different.

Warwick (01:29:30):

Okay. I think that's great. And the last question that you selected was what do you think it means to be a leader and a follower? What does leadership followership look like to you?

Dr. Susan Fay (01:29:47):

Okay. For me, and this comes up a lot of times for me and in different clinics that I do and people have gotten an idea that leadership equals being the boss and making sure your horse does what it wants, what you asked it in a timely fashion. And otherwise it should get reprimanded. And for me, I have a completely different idea. I don't go into leadership with I'm going to change my body language and assume the position of, of stiffness in the leader and the authority and all that that comes with what I think maybe a leader is. And I try to model it after a horse that I had that I believe was the true leader of the herd. And she was the one that everybody went to. They like to be around her, but they didn't mess around. They did. They knew that if they did something, she was a bird mayor.

Dr. Susan Fay (01:30:40):

So she would be in charge of all the falls. You know, the mayor, the other mayors would lead their falls with her and they would go off and graze and she would watch over everyone. And I thought, Oh, they really trust her. They trust her with their own babies. And so, but she's not mean they're nasty. She doesn't try to bite them. If they tried to do something, you know, like cultural do is kick it, the mayor to try to buy them and come up. And all she would have to do is give them a look and, and just very gently just flicking here. And it was, they would just stop. And so it was this compassion, this empathy she had and this ability to just stand in her truth of who she was. And I think everybody followed her, everybody followed her. Everybody wanted to be around her, but they didn't try anything nasty to her.

Dr. Susan Fay (01:31:33):

They never even thought about it. I don't think. And so leadership for me is just being in that place of, am I consistent? Am I consistent in my emotional and mental state? And am I trustworthy? Does the horse know what to expect from me and does a horse look to me for support and guidance? And those are what I believe for me is the leadership. And it's worked for me within the horse world and I haven't had to be strong and forceful and all those kinds of things to achieve that level of leadership with a horse.

Warwick (01:32:11):

Yeah. Great stuff. Wow. I think that's very good. You know what I am going to do here? All right. I'm going to read you guys. The very last thing in the book, sacred spaces by Dr. Susan Fe. So you ready? You guys ready for this? You ready for this? You've you've you've heard this before. Cause you wrote it. It says this book was written from my heart in my heart is a love for horses. I can't recall a time that horses have not been a part of my being my essence in my heart. I feel that's important for people to hear or to read about the concepts contained in this, in the pages of this book. Not for my sake, but for the sake of the horse. I often hear horse owners or trainers tell stories of the once in a lifetime horse. Now, you know that every horse has the potential to be a once in a lifetime horse. What we should strive is to be our horses once in a lifetime human horses, give us, sorry, horses, gift us with their power, beauty, grace, and wisdom. Becoming better. Humans can be a gift to them. I think that might be a great way to wrap up our podcast. What do you think of that? Dr. Susan?

Dr. Susan Fay (01:33:29):

I, I believe so. And I believe those are from my heart. Those words are from my heart and how I truly do believe.

Warwick (01:33:38):

So. apart from wait, wait, pay. Well, let's ask this. Where can people buy the book? Sacred spaces,

Dr. Susan Fay (01:33:47):

Sacred spaces right now is on Amazon and either a hard copy the paperback or on a digital. I like the paperback just cause I'm a person that likes pictures. So in the, in the paperback has pictures. So just go to Amazon and you can find it there. And if you're some people that have that available too.

Warwick (01:34:10):

Perfect. And what about any other way people can learn more about you contact you, things like that. Do you have a website?

Dr. Susan Fay (01:34:18):

I have a website Dr. Susan fe.com and I haven't been on there for, I haven't really updated that a lot. So that's probably the least way to get in touch with me. And Facebook is the easiest way. And that's just Susan Fe or I have three different sites. One is Dr. Susan Fe and one is my personal page of just Susan Fay and those of course horses there. So you'll know it's the right one. And then I have another Facebook page called science and spirit of horses.

Warwick (01:34:48):

Ooh, I'll get to write that down. I need to be on that one science and spirit of hostess.

Dr. Susan Fay (01:34:54):

I'll be ramping up more on those sites shortly. Cause I started just a couple of them a little while ago and I haven't posted a whole lot on, on those, but I, I have a feeling that maybe things might change here.

Warwick (01:35:06):

I, I get that feeling too. So Dr. Susan faith, thank you so much for, for joining me on the podcast. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you and listening to what you have to say. And during some of your monologues there, I was just kind of listening, but flipping through this book further ahead, cause I hadn't really looked further ahead and I'm like, Oh my God, this book is so good. I can't wait to get further ahead in it. So once again, thank you so much for joining me and thank you for writing this book and putting this out there. Cause I think this is something that everybody needs to be aware of.

Dr. Susan Fay (01:35:44):

Absolutely. And thank you for being brave and, and talking about these different things that aren't mainstream yet, because they're going to become mainstream pretty soon.

Warwick (01:35:54):

I think they're getting a lot more mainstream than you think so. Yeah. And I think this book will go a long way to making that more. So, so once again, thank you so much for joining me and only your listeners. Thanks for joining us on the journey on podcasts. We'll catch you in the next episode,

Speaker 1 (01:36:10):

Doug. Thanks for listening to the journey on podcast with work Schiller Warrick has over 650 full length training videos on his online video library at videos dot Wark, schiller.com. Be sure to follow Warrick on YouTube, Facebook, and Instagram to see his latest training advice and insights.