Nahshon Cook

Recently I had someone share a Facebook post with me from someone I had never heard of and was amazed at how profound the words were. I had to find out who this person was, so did some research, and ended up several days later recording this podcast with Nahshon Cook.

 Following is an excerpt from the post I read.

“As you're going around, more and more of the shield is falling off you like shed skin. I can see it because your horse is calming down. You don’t need a crystal ball if you can read body language. And so, whatever you feel like you have to protect yourself from, leave it out of the saddle. Because then, your horse feels like she has to protect herself from you. Don’t bring the rest of world to this work, it’s not allowed. Wherever else in life that you’re brilliant, and you are, it doesn’t matter right now. Just. Ride. Your. Horse. Don’t think about riding your horse, ride your horse. Listen to the sound of her hooves touching the ground. Train your mind to quiet down. Is the footfall even? That’s what I want you to listen for. Is your body moving in synch with the sound of her steps? I don’t want you to force it. I want you to feel it. I want you to observe it. Give yourself to her. This is what I meant when I said, “You don’t train horses to change for people. You teach people how to change.” I don’t want her to be anything other than herself. But, what I do want is for you to be completely hers. “

This interview with Nahshon just blew my mind, I’m sure you will have a similar reaction.

Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00:12):

You're listening to the journey on podcast with Warwick Schiller. Warwick is a horseman trainer, international clinician and author, whose mission is to help people achieve a deeper connection with their horses through his transformational training program.

Warwick (00:00:35):

And welcome back to the Journey On podcast. I'm your host Warwick Schiller. And this week we're doing something a bit different. So far every person I have interviewed, I've known quite a bit about them. I may have written rhythm. I might have seen them work with horses. I've shared some fun times with them. I've ate with them and some of them even drink with them. But today I have a guest on here. I know almost nothing about, but I know that a little bit I do know about this person makes me believe. I'm really, really excited to hear where this podcast goes. So the other day I had someone share a post on my Facebook group from a Facebook page called Nashont cook horsemanship. Okay. So the guy's name is Nahshon Cook from Colorado. And when I read what this post was, I thought I have to have this guy on the podcast.

Warwick (00:01:28):

That's some of the most profound stuff I've ever I've ever read. So I'm going to read this post to you. And from that, you'll get an idea of what this guy's mind might be like. And then I'll get him on here. But the post said from a lesson with one of my students, and it goes on to say, and this is the thing you're writing too much in your mind. You're playing this video in your head about how it's supposed to look, and you're not in your body every time you think you're supposed to be doing something, your horse offers resistance. This is what I want you to really understand. Don't be afraid to be at the beginning. If you're afraid to be at the beginning, you are not gonna make it to the end. It's okay. Not to know what you don't know. What's not okay.

Warwick (00:02:11):

Is feeling like you have to present half understood ideas to your horse, because then you create problems, work in the space where you are master the simple stuff that has a lot of profundity in being okay with where you are. If you listen to me, I can turn you into a good rider. But what I'm going to ask you to do is to really choose consciously your responses, to what I'm saying. If you're always preparing for a rebuttal and I can't finish your thought, you're not going to get it. The art of writing where lay in listening. Well, if you can't hear me, if you can't listen to me, then there's no way you'll be able to listen to your horse. And I don't want to come to our lessons, having to prepare myself for a war of ideas with you. I will not do that.

Warwick (00:02:57):

Here is not where we learned to seen. It's where we learn to see. I want you to trust what you feel and let your thoughts go. When you think too much about what you're doing, and you're thinking about doing this, you're thinking about doing that. Your mayor cannot understand you. I just want you to feel the war, what the war feels like. And I want you to feel what your body feels like on the horse. And I want you to be okay with that. The only thing I want you to do right now is learn how to be honestly, as you going around more and more of the shield is falling off your, like a shed skin. I can see it because your horse is calming down. You don't need a crystal ball. If you can read body language. And so whatever you feel like you have to protect yourself from leave it out of the saddle, because then your horse feels like she has to protect herself from you.

Warwick (00:03:46):

Don't bring the rest of the world to this work. It's not allowed wherever else in life that you're brilliant. And you are, it doesn't matter right now. Just ride your horse. Don't think about riding your horse. Ride your horse, listen to the sound of a hooves. Touching the ground. Train your mind to quiet down is the footfall. Even. That's what I want you to listen for. Is your body moving in sync with the sound of a steps. I don't want you to force it. I want you to feel it. I want you to observe, give it, give yourself to her. This is what I meant. When I said you don't train horses to change for people. You teach people how to change. I don't want her to be anything other than a self, but what I do want is for you to be completely hers.

Warwick (00:04:39):

Worst thing you can have is a horse that feels like it has to protect itself from you. Fight is what horses do. And they're feeling overpowered. Schematic training methods built out of broken horses, devolved into savages of slaves whose strengths have been conquered is an idea. That's outlived its usefulness. For me, there are no colonizers in my band. If you're going to be a trainer of horses in the tradition of love and respect and co-creation in life and art, you must learn to listen to what your Mary is telling you about what you're asking her and how it's making her feel. If it feels forced, it's not correct. If she shielded, it's not right. And in, she stops feeling like that. We're not moving on. Her being willing to work for you is all there. It's not about obedience. It's about understanding and peace horses only give you what you've offered them.

Warwick (00:05:32):

And so what is the goal of this work? The goal is for the horse to have a subtled spine and a supple mind and an open body for as long as possible, no matter their job. This is the Holy grail of happy horse centered horse humans. Wow. I hope you're having a whale moment right now. Cause that's what I had when I read that. So that's the words of this man named Nashawn cook and we're going to get him on the lawn right now and see what he, what he's all about. Good morning, Sean. How are you?

Nahshon (00:06:05):

I'm doing well. How are you?

Warwick (00:06:07):

I'm good. Thank you so much for joining me. You know, this is a little bit of a different podcast for me because normally everybody I've had on the podcast so far I, every single person I know if I don't know them quite well, I, you know, I've met them face to face and I know quite a bit about them and you to me are a complete enigma because I know nothing about you. And you know, in the intro, I, I I read out that a post that was shared of yours the other day on on Facebook. And it was just, it was one of those things. I read that and I'm like, I don't even know who this person is, but that is some wise words right there. So hopefully in this conversation, I can get to find out a bit about where those wise words come from. So tell me, let's tell you with, where do you live and what do you do? That's an easy question.

Nahshon (00:07:08):

Yeah. So I live in Parker, Colorado on my farm. We have a 10 acre little farm out here. And I basically do a lot of rehab work with horses, a lot of musculoskeletal stuff. I'm clean, I'm trained classically as a dressage rider. And so, but yeah, a lot of my work focuses on, on rehabilitation and working around traumatic issues that horses and riders have. Yeah. Horses and riders. Yep.

Warwick (00:07:44):

So like, are you doing like somatic stuff with riders?

Nahshon (00:07:49):

Well, a lot of it is, so a lot of the work that I, I I do with riders is, is based pretty heavily in mindfulness and Vipassana meditation. Yeah. And yeah. And so so, you know, and kind of the crux of the pasta work is, you know, breathing basically, as I understand it, reading into the spaces and finding, you know, kind of doing body scans and going where the breath isn't really reaching and breathing into that space and figuring out what emotions are hiding in that space. And so what I've pretty much found is that, you know, when Brian, when writers are coming up on a trauma around writing their body stops, accepting the breath at a certain point, and that's usually where they're protecting. And consequently it's where the horse finds the balance in their rider for resistance. And so if we can begin to work through, if we can begin to work through that stuck point and it's, you know, it can be trauma, but sometimes it's a, it's a, just an untrue belief. Then we can start really working on, on, you know, writing from a place of communication. Instead of writing, thinking that control is necessary.

Warwick (00:09:12):

Well, we're three minutes in and I already got the price of admission already. That, that was, that was kind of what I thought might come out of your mouth based on that, that you wrote. So the million dollar question is that, well, let me say this first, that is not normal in the horse world. Okay. It's going to be a bit more normal in my horse world cause that's where I'm going to, but you didn't learn that from classical dressage training. So can you share with us, how ha how old are you by the way? 35 to 35. Yeah. I think you're 350 actually. You, you have like the thing that I read out early on in the, in the intro that's, there was just such wise words and old wisdom. And, and can you tell us a little bit about how you, well, not even just the, the, the personal meditation stuff to do with the horses and the people. Maybe we can back up a bit and, and cause I can tell you've got a story as to how you got to this point in, it's probably a pretty compelling story. So do you mind sharing that with us?

Nahshon (00:10:29):

Just to clarify how I got to what point particularly like with the riding or the, the give, like my riding story, my horse story.

Warwick (00:10:40):

No, you know, most of what you just said then has nothing that big, long speech you just made has nothing to do with horses and everything to do with life. So it's more that, you know, like, like I said, the understanding part, the understanding part and how you actually come to the point in your life where you understand that's what's going on with right. Is you're not just giving up down lessons like up down elbows in heels, down, chin up sort of thing, getting to the root of it. And how does it, how does that, how does a person get to that point? How did you get to that?

Nahshon (00:11:11):

I think first I trust life and I think that when you trust something, you're, you're able to relax into it and, and clarity comes. And so I work a lot off of just the, and since I have my own arena, since I have my own space I'm pretty privy to how the energy of the spaces and those space that my horses holds for me. And I can feel it kinda changing when I'm in my arena. And what I have learned to do is train my eyes to what's the horses telling me, their riders, doing I a lot of time just playing around in my arena with just figuring out where, you know, how different parts of the body affect different places. And I, but I don't really know that that's answering your question. How did I get to this point? So I think that the easiest answer is when I was like 19,

Warwick (00:12:13):

Yep, I'm listening.

Nahshon (00:12:15):

When I was like 19, I had a friend who is an astrologer telling me that if I trusted the horse and he said, he says, follow the horse. Then he said, follow the horse and find heaven in every step. And he goes, this is your path in life. And I didn't know what that me, what that meant. And so there have, I think on my, on, on, on my journey there were times when I ran away from horses and they always came back. I lived in, I lived in Thailand for a while trying to just be done. And there happened to be a stable across the street that needed a trainer. I'm not going to be around the Bush. I, you, you said Nahshon it takes three lifetimes to come to that kind of wisdom. I think that when you use this precious human birth as a, as a horseman and you've done it before, then they're just understanding that you'd come into the world with, and it's kind of this continuation of the same idea in consciousness, but in a different place in body.

Nahshon (00:13:17):

And I, and it struck me that you said that because you would only be able to understand that if that was kind of where you were coming from too, there's the love that that's deep in horses sometimes where you can hear what they're telling you. You can hear it by the energy they put off. You can hear it. Some people sometimes for me, it comes in a, in a vision you can feel by how they're breathing and how, and, and, and by what there, and the interplay of like where they're at. And so like with horses in training situations, I really like taking courses with trauma because you begin to understand a lot about people. And you begin to understand a lot about where the people who mess them up, where their fears lay and where their ignorance was and where they projected their inability to get through this horse on the horse as resistance.

Nahshon (00:14:16):

And then when, you know, a lot of my students are coming from situations where they were in not so good training situations. And they had these horses that were super sensitive and super, super sensitive and super opinionated, and understood how they needed to use their bodies in ways in, you know, so that they could do what we were asking them to do. But it wasn't, it wasn't the schematic, you know, idea of you know, when you put your right rein on your horse goes, right, when you do this, it was, it was like, they're, they, they teach people. They taught people what works for them, and they taught people how to teach them. And some of those people just didn't listen and it just turned into a fight and then they got sent down the road. And so I think that, I think that the wisdom came from taking those horses and having them help me teach that, you know, they were, they were, they were in this space of chaos and fear because somebody didn't understand that's what they were, teach the person who was teaching them out of with chaos and fear.

Nahshon (00:15:24):

And you just begin to understand and get a little bit more compassion for them, the person on their journey, even though unfortunately, the horses, the brunt of that is the proof of, of what they really know. Does that make sense?

Warwick (00:15:41):

I'm mesmerized here. I actually, I don't know. This is interesting cause I know nothing about you and I'm assuming, you know, nothing about me, but I've been on a bit of a unraveling of trauma journey and just this year, and I've been working on trying to get bodily sensations back in my body for a few years now. And just this year, I've I probably have reached the peak of that. And I've talked about it before in the podcast, but I was at, I was at a, yeah, what was called a three-day men's emotional resilience retreat. And I really got a lot of stuff working in my body then, and while you were talking right then I was having all this somatic stuff going on. So whatever it was you were saying right then was yeah, really connecting with me. So you said you're a classically trained classically dressage trying to what's let's talk about let's, let's stay away from what I call the woo for a minute. I'm all about the woo, but let's stay away from the Wu for a minute. And where did you get your classical dressage training?

Nahshon (00:16:46):

So I, I actually learned how to ride at a after-school arts program cause I'm originally from, you know, the inner city of Denver. And there's a place called the urban farm in Stapleton where they offered riding lessons to kids in the city and they had different levels. And so, you know, I moved through and they had their school horses and all of that stuff. And I first got introduced to just eyes by one of the main instructors there. Her name is, was angel Hoskin. And then they got me in touch with clinicians and who would come on a regular basis. And one was Cynthia Spalding who used to live out here in Colorado, but now is in Branson, Missouri. And she used the grand Prix dressage trainer. She was the student of of a German class at this named Gunnar oestergaard.

Nahshon (00:17:40):

And then also I worked for a while with who a man Jean-Francois who was a rider at the cadre Nuon used to show the horses in the air is above the ground in hand. And so I studied until I was about 16. I studied with them until I was about 16. And then from there it's basically been me and my horses and my books. And and that's kind of what it's, you know, that's kind of been what it's been. And I think that, you know, they teach you the technicalities of it. They teach you how it's supposed to, they teach you kind of, you know, I think that that's the thing is that there, I think there are different levels of writing and instruction and instructors, right. There are, there are. And, and, and, and I think that there are different right.

Nahshon (00:18:36):

Levels of people who meet you at your level of need. And like, so you're like, this is more than just up down, but they did teach me, they did teach me by the technicality of it all. But, but but then I think that, and I think that maybe you can identify with this, that you come to a place in your, in your walk with forces where so much of what you learned, and it could just be one horse, so much of what you've learned from your teachers, just doesn't supply. And then does that ha can you resonate with that?

Warwick (00:19:13):

Oh yeah. I mean, I've, you know, I've been on a bit of a journey for about the last four or five years and it all came because I, you know, I've told this story before, but I was, you know, I was doing clinics all around the world. I was training, I wasn't training horses anymore. I'd given up training horses, but I was doing clinics all around the world and I've got this YouTube channel and everybody loves it. And yada, yada, yada, and I'm starting to believe my own sort of thing. And then I got a horse, my wife bought a horse that had a few little issues that I knew it was a running horse. Cause I was really another ending back then. But he had a few little issues, spooking issues or whatever that I thought I could fix quite easily. Cause it seemed like it was pretty normal.

Warwick (00:19:50):

And I just could not the spooking bit that was easy to fix. It wasn't a problem. But this horse had a level of shut down that I had not ever encountered before. Nothing that I knew, knew how to get him out of it. And so I kind of stepped back from, from trying to make him any different and trying to change him and left him here. He was, but I really started exploring other stuff. And some of that other stuff led me to explore my own stuff and, and you know, led led to me gone and seen therapists and, and learning a lot about trauma and about, you know, the autonomic nervous system and different States of arousal and all that sort of stuff. And yeah, it was, it was a horse that, that kind of led me down that garden path.

Nahshon (00:20:37):

Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's a horse that shows up as the, as, as the master you need to so that you can continue to stay alive while you're living. You know, I lived abroad for a while. I, cause I went and traveled instead of did my graduate studies. But when I had come back from China, there was a horse that I had gotten a call about Nova and he's a horse. He's great. I don't really know how old he is. He's about 17 or 18, but I got him when he was 10 and I had just gotten back into the country and I had been coaching actually. I had coached in Thailand, I dressage and jump jumpers. And then I left there and went to China and then came back home and I got a call about this horse and I swore I was never going to train again.

Nahshon (00:21:35):

And then I, I met this horse and he was angry and he was bad and his body was breaking down. And so and really he's been the catalyst for this whole thing. He's been the light that has led my way and made me not be afraid to get to this point where I'm talking to you. Right? And so he had kissing spine in his lumbar spine and he had really horrible stifle issues and was beginning to have lumbo state rule are sacroiliac joint issues. And so I had never, and, and so I was really happy about was that this was the way in which I could use the work that I had learned with the goal of competition, but to heal my horse and you know, nobody wanted them. And so I figured that, you know, I would just take the chance and I had a job as a counselor at the, I was the counselor at the children's hospital because that's what I'm trained in.

Nahshon (00:22:38):

And I just took this journey of beginning to see how I could use the movement to heal the force. And it took me into you know, everywhere his body was hurting was where he was protecting himself from people. And so it was, it was him really helping me see what he was, what he was seeing that I brought to the situation. And if I were able to become then aware of where my breath was, when he froze, and then I could move beyond that and kind of change the energy that was created between us, you know, so that a partnership could be more possible. And so when I got him, like I said, he was, he was, he was horribly broken and angry and you know, he's 18, he'll be, he'll be about 17, 17, 18, you know? And I trained the source up to the LVAD in seven years.

Nahshon (00:23:42):

So which is the first of the EHRs above the ground as practice and at the Spanish riding school and the, you know, all the, all the major pillars of classical dressage. And so he taught me how to heal horses bodies. And so that's kind of been what I have been able to do. And it also let me know that, you know, horses, you know, horses hurt themselves in the places that they're protecting themselves from us. And so if we can, then if I can then, you know, work on, you know, the fear that the rider is protecting and, and, and all of the stuff that they don't know that they're chairing to their horse, then we can begin to work through that space by using the breath kind of as floss to, to take the plaque away. Then the horse's body begin to open up because they're, people's hearts begin to open up. And so that's kind of the, that's kind of the, where my practice of, of, of, of working is happening now. Yeah.

Warwick (00:24:47):

Okay. So you know, I was the thing I was trying to figure out was where, where does this stuff come from? But you said you have account, you, you, you have a counseling degree, is that correct? And what exactly is it?

Nahshon (00:25:03):

And it is in human services with, in counseling with a focus on at risk youth and, and children, you know, gay or lesbian or BI kids. And so but I took that in, used it actually on I used it and I worked on the inpatient autism unit at children's hospital here in Colorado and Denver. But yeah, but I think even before that, you know, that, you know, I mean, it's all, it feels like, it feels like, you know, my, you know, language is growing into a life I've always lived because like, when I was little, I would talk and just keep them up. Like I would go to the doctor and the doctor would just tell my mom that I'm really smart, but they really don't understand what I'm talking about. You know? I mean, and so and initially I was the philosophies and comparative religions major, but I needed to learn how to be more human. And so I, I, I, my mom, my mom suggested that I do counseling instead. And so that's what I did and it helped, it taught me how to listen and it taught me how not to be afraid to speak purposefully and clearly and without it, it taught me how to, how to not be afraid of not being heard. Right. But it also helped me understand just like horses. Like they hear us, they hear us when we speak loudly, but they listen to us when we softly, you know what I'm saying?

Warwick (00:26:46):

Oh, yeah. I know exactly what you're saying. So you kind of skimmed over a very important thing here a second ago that you kind of said in a way that you almost brushed it under the carpet. Tell me about the philosophy. What, what were you initially start?

Nahshon (00:27:02):

I studied comparative religions and philosophy, very comparative religion, which is, it's a way of using observing religion and their goals of helping people become human beings and, and the different ways in which they go about doing that. So, you know, in the different ways in which they go about doing that would be, you know, whether they are, you know, if they have a deity or, or, or, you know, if it's more humanistic, if they're, you know, the ritual, you know, all of that stuff out of the poems during their services that they use. Right. and so that's, that's, that's kind of, that was kind of that. Yeah. And, and, and instead of, and, and, and I loved it, I loved it. I loved it. I loved it. I loved it. But the conversations that I was having with people weren't helping. Right. they were too heady and they were too deep and they were too, what is the word?

Nahshon (00:28:10):

Tribal? Yeah. They were too tribal. Right. And I mean, and it was, and it was a very interesting way. I mean, and that in saying like, you know, like, because we understand, you know, this part of human, you know, human nature, and we study this part of human nature, you know, it was, you know, we, we have the key, but in the rest of life, it's not valid. And I just didn't want to live my life like that. I don't, I didn't really like people that much, but I did know that people were worth being considered, even if they didn't know everything there was to consider. Does that make sense?

Warwick (00:28:47):

So, so much sense. You know, I had a a guest on the podcast here recently, and she's a writer from Scotland and names, tenure Kindersley. And when she talks, like when she writes, she writes, she doesn't write poetry, but it's so poetic, you know, she could tell us she could write down what she had for breakfast, and it would sound amazing and talking and talking to her, and she talks the same way she writes. So I was just so eloquent and I feel you are the same way. Like I, I'm not doing it, but I want to kind of take notes. Cause you'll say a sentence and it'll be just a zinger. And I'm like, Oh, I got to write that down. I'm going to have to go back and listen to this stuff, because there's already been about 50 sentences. You've said that I'm like, Oh, that's prophetic right there. So yeah, I really think the, and I know another one of my guests was Tristen Tucker, you know, HITRUST and Tucker

Nahshon (00:29:37):

Is

Warwick (00:29:39):

Okay. So, you know, he has a degree in fine arts. And so he brings that fine arts degree to the horse space. And it sounds like you bring quite a bit of that, not usual education for horse trainer to this horse training space. And I think that's, you know, like when I, when I read that thing, that, that I read it at the start of the, the podcast, he, when I read that thing, I was like, that's just, that's not just a horse trainer. There's so much more than just horse training. And that there's no much more than just, you know, the, the horse fear of that. There's so much more outside influences. So tell me about I'm really intrigued my ears pricked up when you said Thailand, what led you to Thailand?

Nahshon (00:30:29):

Oh, so it was what led me to Thailand is so the backstory like I had, so I had gotten a scholarship to do my masters and PhD work. And I had taken a year in, in, it was a masters of divinity with a focused on like social justice. So working on just it, it was just working on trying to make life equal for people as equal as possible on the policy level. And, and, and the interesting thing was, is that I had actually I, one of my mentors through the process of deciding where I wanted to go and study and all of that was Dr. Vincent Harding, who was the speech writer for Dr. Martin Luther King. And he wrote the beyond Vietnam speech. And he, he and I had had many conversations over dinner. And he said that, like, he thought that this would probably be a good road for me to go down.

Nahshon (00:31:41):

And, and, and I was like, well, here I am 22, 23 years old, not knowing what else to do. And I was really, really excited, but it wasn't the place for me. And I believe, well, I don't, I, you know, I hold as true that, you know our paths are affirmed sometimes by people along the way. And while I was there, one of the professors, while I was in my program, one of the professors said, Hey, Mr. Cook, how are you doing? And I said, I'm doing I'm happy. And he said, protect that. And the thing that popped up in my head when I did that was get out of this plate. And so I gave my scholarship back and I called my mom on my way home. And I said, mom, I gave my scholarship back. And she says, I think that's a really great thing that you've done for yourself. And I said, and she says, so what are you going to do now? And I said, I don't know. She says, well, maybe you should travel. And she goes, and I said, well, I don't know where I'm going to go. And she says, well, I will support wherever you go. As long as it's not, there's no war. And so I didn't know where I was going to go. And I went home and I spun the globe and close my eyes and my finger landed there. And so I was there six weeks later.

Warwick (00:33:10):

Oh yeah. I'm just laughing at you. You are such a traveler. Wow. I don't mean travel as in get on planes and go places, but just someone who can, who can just follow what the universe presents to them. And I might not, I've done several podcasts on how I got to this place and how I got to this place was just going with whatever showed up. I've never been much of a planner. I'm not terribly organized, but I do know how to say yes to things. And it sounds like you are quite good at saying yes to opportunities that come your way.

Nahshon (00:33:50):

I trust life. Yup. I trust life because Mike has proven itself to be trustworthy, not painless, but it's proven as though it's proven itself to be a trustworthy endeavor. And, and I, I trust that and I trust that, you know, it's, it's, it's gonna work out because this is where my next step is. And when I, and, and I am a, I'm a brilliant planner, but it's still, it's still turns out to be of no value. If I don't listen to where I'm supposed to be going, like, you know, there are things that I really, I really love, but aren't good for me. And every time I make that choice, it always ends up in disaster, like told you. So, and so like next time that space presents itself to me, then it's not so bad. Like, I mean, and it's like that, it's like that way with me with horses, like, you know, my, my three horses I have, I have N I have known and loved, and they weren't like my first day, but they weren't like my first choice of creatures because they were broken in body, your mind, or, you know, two of them are off of the [inaudible] both very brilliant and all very hated by the people who had them before.

Nahshon (00:35:18):

And, you know, those, the, the, but their mind. And they're teaching me how to teach people and, and, and, and me teaching. And then teaching me how to teach people is allowing me to build a life that I, to live in this world for myself. You know what I'm saying? I had a young core Chevy who just was not my horse and I, and they sold them to me and they were downsizing their herd. And he was this really beautiful little national show horse. And I had trained him up to third level and I had, and we did our first competition and we won. And then he, I brought him back and he got a fever and the fever wouldn't go away. And the vet I called the vet and the vet said, yeah, we'll do this and do that and gave him a shot.

Nahshon (00:36:13):

And, you know, he should be better tomorrow. He wasn't better tomorrow. And there was one night when he appeared to me in my sleep. And there was just this heat all around his body, in his stall. And so I went to the barn and he was sleep and, and he was not getting better. And I called the doctor, the doctor called me the next day. And she says, I have a feeling Chevy's not doing too good. And I said, no, he's not doing too good. The fever hasn't broke. And I was a few hours downspouts, and he, you know, he wasn't, he wasn't, he just, you could just tell that he wasn't there. You know, I mean, and, and so I said a prayer on my way home. And I said, I will do whatever my horse needs me to do so that he can be happy.

Nahshon (00:37:07):

And the picture of his old owner, the image of his old owner popped up in my brain, popped up in my mind. I was driving down the highway and I called her and I said, Chevy wants to come back to you. And she says, there's no way that I can afford him with all the work that you've put into him. And I said, well, this is the thing, like, I'll just give him back to you. And so I paid the vet bills and I did all of that. And I gave him back to him because I knew that if I kept him, because he was not my horse, it was likely that this horse would probably have a bad colic that took, that took him out. And I said, okay. So if this is a real thing, and I know it all sounds like super, super fairy tale ish, but this is basically how my life works.

Nahshon (00:38:03):

I said, if it works, then the fever, if it's true, the fever will be gone when I get back to the barn and it was, and I said, I told them, I said, you're going back to your mama. And the fever broke. And then I dropped him off two weeks later, and that was it. And then I had my other horse, I had my other horse. And, and so, and I got my other horse who my other young course, who's six now, seven Remi. And, you know, he, he, he was, he was, he was horribly and had, had horrible damage to his super spinus ligament, right at the Dumbo sacral junction, because they were jumping him too young and he was bred and Mexico to raise. And I said, Hey, kid, if you want to be my horse, you've got to make a way to make it happen.

Nahshon (00:38:53):

Because right now I'm at a point where I can't afford three horses and Chevy went back to his people and he came to me and Chevy's now like a wonderful kids horse. And, and, you know, I took rimming with, you know, them saying that he wouldn't be rideable again and that his back, but I'm like, this baby is four years old. And, and, and and I had an, I had a dream about how to fix them. And I told the lady who had them that that's what happened. And that I, you know, I knew the way forward. And she said, okay, he's yours. And sure enough, like, he's, he's really helped me understand. He's really helped me understand the mechanics of the horses back and the rebuilding of Gates and, and the unlocking of muscles and, and how healing, how, how, how feeling, how healing just a loving intention for a horse that, you know, can make it, but don't know how they'll make it, how, how, if you believe it and create the space, sometimes they do.

Nahshon (00:40:01):

You know, and so a lot of my work too is around, is around, is around rehabilitation. And I had a case just a few weeks ago. Well, they came up on Sunday and the lady comes a lesson that I was doing. And she was the last one of the day. And she comes to me in tears. And she says, if you can't figure this out, I have to put my horse to sleep. She goes, I have been trying to figure this out for the last five years, and I don't know what else to do. And I'm like, well, this is, you know, this is horrible. Because you know, his life is, is in whether or not I can hear what he's telling me. And and, and I did some in-hand work and unlocked his jaw and unlocked his pole. And, and, and she says, well, he has arthritis in his lumbar spine.

Nahshon (00:41:00):

And I said, yeah, I have, but the stifles are the staples. Okay. And she goes, no, the stifles aren't okay. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I just wrote them around. And, and how this horse had been written was the reason this arthritis apparently had shown up because he wasn't able to engage as top-line. And this is where the writing technique comes in, because you know, some people, when you know you, and as a teacher, I believe that you, you probably see this, how people guard themselves for movement. And, and think that by forcing themselves to be deal, they'll find harmony with their horses. But what happened was that this lady was riding with her elbows too close to her slide, which wasn't allowing the horses hind legs to come up through her back and her spine absorbed his movement. And so he inverted and over time it caused him to disengage his stomach muscles, his, his rectus abdominis muscle, and, and he started, and the joint started working incorrectly. I, so what happened is that I just softened my body and brought my elbows a little bit away from my side. And, you know, this horse dropped his neck and started chewing and engaged his back. And it was, and it was just that simple. It was just that simple. And like now the horses and being both asleep, because now he's figured out what's going on and how to move forward, working with him.

Nahshon (00:42:33):

And they came to my farm, they came to my farm just Saturday. She says the vest we've taken them to the university. We've taken them down to the big hospital, down South Littleton, equine vet. And she was like, now he's doing bodywork. They were doing chiropractor. And now he's going after the chiropractor, just because he doesn't like the way people are having him use his body and are telling him he needs to use his body. And, and, and so he came and, and would, you know, the first thing he did when he came into my arena and they drove like two and a half hours down, almost from Wyoming, he came into my arena and he just laid down and took a deep breath and laid down and just let everything out. And then we got to work and he was good. And so he's on my mind now. And I'm going to check in with them just monthly to make sure that he's on track. Wow.

Warwick (00:43:26):

I'm just fascinated listening to all this stuff. The whole line down thing, you know, I've had, excuse me, a lot of horses at clinics in the last few years that we'll lay down and have a sleep during the clinic. And when you ask the owner, they say, are they, but he never lays down, or he hasn't laid down to three months or whatever. And a lot of times it's the, sometimes it's, it's what we do or don't do with them really it's like that, those sort of horses for the most part, I think it happens because of I'm really in the big end of polyvagal theory these days, even the polyvagal theory,

Nahshon (00:44:04):

No, I'm not familiar.

Warwick (00:44:06):

It's basically about attunement. It's about the sense of being seen, being heard, feeling, felt, getting gotten, or that sort of stuff. And when we start a lot of these horses at the clinics that end up laying down, it's not that we trained them to do anything, or we worked with them or worked on them. It's more about letting them know that they're seen just the little things they do just to, you know, just that attunement sort of thing. And I've been on it about this for, and I'm, I'm lucky because I've been kind of open about it. So the people that come to my clinics to watch, as well as the people in the clinics, but the people that came to my clinic to watch and not there to see, you know, the big stick approach. And so there seems to be this energy at these clinics.

Warwick (00:44:49):

That's almost like, you know, if you've ever been to Europe and been into one of those really old cathedrals and you walk in there and you just feel that energy of every person that's ever been in there, sort of thing, it's a bit like that, but that's the thing I got from. So I, you know, I read that thing that you posted that I talked about the start of that, that thing at the start of the episode. And then I went, Ooh, who is this guy? So then I went on your Facebook page, I guess it is. And it was a short video that you'd videoed at home. And you were talking to the camera about something, and I didn't hear what you said. I just felt you, you go, you've got this, you've got this chill vibe that, you know, even just through the phone or through the computer comes, comes through so powerfully. So I can imagine what it's like in real life, what those horses would feel from you without you actually doing anything, just you being in there in the presence. I'm sure it has a huge effect on them.

Speaker 4 (00:45:54):

Well, you know, so I, you know, doing comes from being right and how we, how we are determines how we do what we do. Right. And can you say that one again? I don't really remember.

Warwick (00:46:20):

Okay. Keep talking. I'm sorry. That's fine. That's fine.

Speaker 4 (00:46:26):

You know, and I think that we all work out of the places that we relaxed into. And I think that, I think that everybody is Holy and I think that every horse is Holy. And I think that, I think that our lives are Holy. And I think that because I feel like that, and that's how I approach my work. Then the work becomes bullying, not like religious wholly, not like I need to like bow down on my knees. Holy, but Holy enough, to understand that love is enough. And that even though most of the time I work with one of these cases, I am desperately afraid that I will not be able to help them. I'm terribly afraid. You know? Then I trust that if the horse wants my help, then the horse of show me the way and they always do.

Speaker 4 (00:47:36):

They always do. And I think that, and I think that, you know, I think that credit can't be given to me for being a really good horse trainer. I think credit can be given to me for being a really good listener of horses and a really good translator of horses to people. Because, you know, you find people who really do love their horses, but don't have the place to be out of to reach where they need to be, to feel like they're doing the right thing for their horses. And I think that that's where my work comes in. That's where my work comes in, is safe enough to be okay, not knowing what you need to know. It's safe enough being okay, feeling like you're, you can't hear your horse, but you're hearing your horse quite well because you brought your horse to someone who can hear them. And that is a gift.

Speaker 4 (00:48:44):

And I feel, and I, and I think that, that, and I think that as you know, a holder of space, and I think that you understand this as a holder of space, you know, it's not like you have to be perfect as a horse, mineral horse teacher. And, and, and, and when you, and when, and when you show up as somebody who helps you really begin to understand that, you know, you know, even if you do believe all of your, there comes a time when the work becomes so deep. And the presence of love becomes those strong. Like even that doesn't matter, and life has moved you out of your own way and you are there and there's this synergy that is created. And then that's where the trust comes from. And then you begin to realize that there's only two ways of working with people and horses.

Speaker 4 (00:49:41):

It's either trusting in the chaos or it's trusting in the calm. And if you trust in the, if you trust in the calm, you feel like you have something to prove. And a fight is almost always, always, always the product. And, you know, and that's from that emotive space in our mind, right? It's an undisciplined emotion, but if we trust the calm, it's like, it's like being in the ocean and giving your body to the bigness of the ocean. And the ocean just carries you. Like that's, that's, that's, that's the place that I like to work out of. That's the place that I like to live out of. And that's the place where, where, where like you, where you move beyond hearing people's words to hearing their heart and, and like, and, and, and, and you begin to realize where all them life, life has made them protect themselves. And then you start working through those spaces. You start working through those spaces with, with their people, and then the horses just give you their bodies because you've given them your body.

Speaker 4 (00:50:56):

And I think that that's the most important that's the most important thing is, is, is, is, is creating the atmosphere in which it is safe to surrender me, surrender as the teacher, the horse, and, and, and, and, and the horse take its place as the master and the person taking its place as the princes horses will lead us through, they will lead us through, if we have the courage to trust their intelligence, they will, they will teach us how to heal our hurt if we have humility to be okay, understanding that the question is always the answer with them. The question is always the answer, but when we trust only the answer, we never find the right question. And so the problem doesn't get solved. It's a place, it's a place with heart, and it's a place of love, and it's a place of extreme kindness, and it's a place of self-acceptance and it's a place of learning how to be.

Speaker 4 (00:52:14):

So you do in a way that's helpful instead of learning how just to do and destroy everything that you come into contact with, which unfortunately is the best majority of training theory and training practice, and training movement. The horses intelligence is not taken into consideration, and we don't trust that they know how best to use their bodies to meet the ends that we're asking them to help us meet. And so they break down, they fall apart and our hearts are broken because we're doing everything that we've been taught, and it's doing nothing but destroy them. And then the trainer toes, the person, if they're big competition, people often just get a new horse, totally discounting the life and the sentience of what they have and not deeming it valuable enough to try and make better. And then we caught in this horrible cycle of Hales, full of hungry ghosts that never have enough because they're chasing emptiness. It's horrible. And I have allowed myself to be the person on the end of that cycle. Okay. Bring them broken, bring them broken. Because when they're brought broken, I have the most valuable thing I need to help all the time in the world.

Speaker 4 (00:53:58):

And so I used to pay, pray for the skills and the technique which I now has. And now the prayer is patience.

Warwick (00:54:08):

Give me a minute. I feel like I was somewhere in the Holy land about 2000 years ago, and I've just heard the sermon on the mound.

Speaker 4 (00:54:17):

We're all Holy words. We're all Holy. Even if we don't know that we are, we're all, we're all worthy to feel that peace, we're all worthy to just be okay with where we're at, even if it, and if it's a bad place, even not knowing how we got there, that's the first step to ending an unwanted cycle. And this, this is the heart of my practice. As a horseman. My horses are my path to that enlightenment. And that's the path that I'm on. And that's the path that I teach unashamedly. And the fact that, you know, someone of your Notability deemed it valuable enough to talk to some trainer on the side of the road. You know, this is proof that if I trust life, everything will be okay. You, my friend are an omen for me, that I am on the right road.

Warwick (00:55:32):

You are definitely on the right road. You've you're quite quite a long way down the highway from where I'm at right now. But it's a good place,

Speaker 4 (00:55:44):

I think. But I think that this is the thing, and this is the thing is that when we don't allow it to be that when it's, when, when we, when we allow it to be Holy enough, that we don't even have to compare ourselves amongst ourselves, compare ourselves with each other, then we're all at the same plate, no matter where we're at, we're all exactly at the same place. And that same place is only where we are. And that is the key to our next step. Because when we take, when we take the hierarchy of enlightenment or evolution or any of that, when we take that away, when we take that away, we are all in the same spot. And the beautiful thing about it is that because we're all where we're supposed to be. That's how we know the next step is possible. That's how we know the next step is possible because I can see you and I can see each other where we're at. And if that's where we need to go, we know how to get there because you're there. Does that make sense?

Warwick (00:56:54):

Yes. And it makes all the sense in the world. None of the sense. It was mostly, mostly for me, it's all the sense in the world. So, you know, listening to you hear you, you know, I I've, I've had some people on this podcast who who I think are just absolutely amazing thinkers and look at the world in a completely different way than most people do. And then there's you, my friend and, and it's not a comparison to them, but you, wow. Okay. So the question, the first question that comes to mind is you're a horse trainer. Okay. How do you, how do you, cause, cause I'm out in the, like the social media space. So I get to be observed and get feedback from sometimes critical feedback from every kind of aspect of the horse world. And for the most part, quite a few people aren't ready for I'm at.

Warwick (00:57:57):

So how do you, you know, how do you attract the sort of people that are ready for this? Because this is not your average. Hey, you know, my horse has got a problem, help me fix it. You know, this is, these are not up down lessons. This is not just your average horse training. So how, how do you maybe you just attract the right people, but I mean, you, you, you, you, you are so far from the average horse trainer is not funny. I'm just wondering how you, how you deal with that, how you worked through that.

Speaker 4 (00:58:30):

So I'm honest with myself about people who are healthy for me and how it really happened, how I really haven't is I had a friend who dared me to try and get into the Rocky mountain horse expo here. And I said, you know, there are a lot of trainers and, you know in, and, you know, I don't know that I was fit and, you know, I mean, and then the thing, and then the thing popped up, you know, that, you know, I'm a black horse trainer and I don't necessarily, I'm a black dressage trainer and I speak about horses being hard creatures. And, you know, I didn't know how that would be received. And a lot of people didn't know how to receive me. More than once I was mistaken as my horses groom. And those are just punches that life throws at you sometimes to see if you trust in your gift enough to let earthly stuff be earthly stuff and continue to walk on up.

Speaker 4 (00:59:54):

And so I taught there for three days and all of the horses that came in were changed in a positive way. And I answered questions, honestly, like I'm answering yours and people started offering to host me for clinic. So I did that and I was able to quit my job as a counselor. And so I did that for about a year. And then I started feeling like I needed my own space and my mom called me one night. And she, because she was tired of just the rigor Moreau, because I, I'm a, I'm a good writer. I'm a good writer when you don't have your own space and you're renting from people or you're at a barn. And, you know, the owners are really happy to have you there because you bring in business. And, and my mom wasn't liking the way that it was looking.

Speaker 4 (01:00:56):

And so about two o'clock one night, she told me that she would buy me a place if I found it. And she gave me this criteria, like we had to not be too far from the city. And, you know, it had to have a paved road on the, you know, from the main drive and all that stuff. Street lights, preferable because remember we're city people. And I looked for about a year or for about six months because I had gone to Germany to teach. And then I came back and I broke that year up into like, you know, you know, three sections three, four months sections. And so I had come back from Germany that October and had begun to look and none of the places fit and right when I was about to give up I checked one more time and this place popped up.

Speaker 4 (01:01:48):

And when we put in our offer and we got it, so I trust the, and then, and then, because I had my own place, people just started showing up, like I would be teaching and, and, you know, people were bought with follow me. And I had, I was lucky to do a panel on a dressage horse, biomechanics geared Heisman here, when he came to Denver in last year, last June. And I got a lot of exposure there and, you know, every I haven't advertised, I just haven't ever people have shown up. Yeah. I don't know how it happened. I honestly don't know. That's my short answer. I don't know how the hell these people come here, what they do and it's right. And I'm thankful I trust life.

Warwick (01:02:40):

Yeah. You just attracted there kind of people. Well, that's, that's pretty much, you know, the thing about the thing about those horse expos is what I have learned. Cause I, you know, I've, I've basically been to different people. You know, I was present at horse expos when I was doing what I used to do and which was more, which was more about training horses, more about that, telling them what to do, teaching them what to do, but I've always been on the, the subtle end of the scale anyway. But then I've made a bit of a change in the last four or five years into more relationship-based training in listening a lot more. And so I've, but I've been presenting at horse expos the whole time. And what I found is that there are so many people looking for that sort of thing, but a lot of times at the expos, you know, that it's, that's not the sort of trends that are there and you think, well, those other trainers, that's what people are looking for.

Warwick (01:03:40):

But I've found that it's, it's almost the opposite. And I did I presented a horse expo in, Oh, some way back East that's called, never went back East is cold, I suppose, maybe it was Minnesota or something last year. And some of those horse expos, you know, I'm really getting to the back corner, cause there's a big name, horse, you know, several other big name, horse trainers or whatever. And they get the main color same. But sometimes I get the main color scheme and this one, I got the main Coliseum and I did it an hour and a half thing on, I forget what it's called. It was basically about listening to your horse, basically about not asking for stuff, but about listening and stuff and about communicating with energy, asking with a mental picture and, and, you know, starting with the, your internal energy first, before anything else and all that sort of thing.

Warwick (01:04:28):

And when I was finished, I looked around and that Coliseum was about half full. And they said it holds about 4,000 people. So I had about 2000 people who stayed and listened to this stuff, which amazed me, especially in the Midwest. And I said, okay, I'm going to go back to the booth. It's anybody, if anybody's got any questions. And so I get back to the booth and there's a lot of people in a line and one by one, they come up to the booth tonight, they ask the questions and I help them out as best as I can in, in the lawn. There's this big toll on old cowboy looking dude, he's probably in his early seventies, big, tall guy kind of looks like John Wayne. He's got like BIM and brace overalls on and he's got a Carhartt jacket and his dirty, old cowboy hat, you know, and he comes up and he finally comes up and I introduced myself to him and we, and he says, you know, you're out there, you were talking about asking a horse to move with energy.

Warwick (01:05:21):

And I said, yeah. And he goes, let me tell you the best way to get a horse, to move with energy. And I'm thinking this is going to involve a big stick or a shotgun or something, you know? And he said the best way to get a horse to move with energy is to generate a great deal of energy. And you root shakra breathe it up into your heart space and breathe it out towards them. You could have knocked me over with a feather because I'm like, that is not what I was expecting from this old cowboy dude.

Speaker 4 (01:05:48):

Yeah. And I think that, and I think that that's the beautiful thing is that holiness doesn't look a certain way. Yeah. I mean, and like, and like, I mean, and just on that point, right? Like you weren't expecting that from a cowboy and a lot of people aren't expecting what they get from a black man. You know what I'm saying? Because this is still America, you know, and a lot of people don't expect that from, from, from a black person in the horse world period, the few black people that there are, but then you have this little man, five, seven, 150 pounds when he's wet and talking about this stuff. This is the thing, is that when you, when you, when you understand the value and the gift that this life is, it goes beyond a truth. It goes to a truth beyond everything else that we say should matter.

Speaker 4 (01:07:00):

Right. And so like, you know, my, my, my challenge, my challenge is that, you know, like I've competed and I've poached. And I won gun well as a competitor for the short term, but I don't put any of that on my thing. Like my, my, my, my, my bio is not super shiny and so challenging. We enough, like, it's kind of hard for me to get into other places outside of, outside of Colorado where they know me, but that's fine because I, you know, the thing is, is that you present how you want people to see you, right? You, you present, you present. Do I want people to be, I don't want to feel like I'm baiting people to come and see me because I don't want to disappoint them because I've changed. And I have to trust too, that the change will be enough to hold my life.

Speaker 4 (01:07:56):

It's really valuable for me. It's really valuable for me to be able to honestly say, you know what? I can really see that. You're, you're scared. I am not going to ask you to move your horse into an extended trot, because if it's done incorrectly, it's going to hurt your horse's back. So let's work through this fear, right? What are you truly afraid of? I'm afraid of my horse spooky. Okay. So what happens if your horse spooks, then I lose control, but what happens if your horse doesn't spook? I don't know. Okay. Well, let's try, try. How about you give your body to your horse in a way that you're asking your horse to give his body to you? What happens? Oh, there's my horses back. What happens if you think of her, your horse, his front legs being attached into your hips, and then your body begins to move that way you begin to feel behind laid in your seat, bones in your body begins.

Speaker 4 (01:09:05):

Oh my goodness. Look, reign, contact. How do you feel free? Because you are that's freedom choosing what you want to be responsible for. Do you want to be responsible for all this chaos? Or do you want to be responsible for this calm? Do you want it, do you really want to bring all of life that you're trying to get away from into the saddle? Do you really want to do that? You know, I mean like, and that's, and that's where I'm, that's where I'm choosing to work out of. And so I'm writing and I love to write, I love to write, and I'm compiling a collection of, of, of those type of writings that you read. And and, you know, because a lot of, for the horse training, a lot of them, a lot of it is just a lot of it is built on training per se.

Speaker 4 (01:09:58):

And like, this is the end result and product. I'm very much, I'm very much processed. And there aren't a lot of people who want to deal with that on the emotional spiritual level. And so I'm gonna, I'll probably be self-publishing that one next summer and that what you read is going to be included. So, and there'll be more of those. I am. So looking forward to that, I think, do you have, do you have, do you know what you're going to call it? No, I don't, but I was, but I, but you know, in, in, in honor of like the old cowboy who told you that, like, you know, breathe up through your root chakra up into your heart chakra, you know, and how consequently that opens your crown chakra, and then you're in heaven in the earth. You know, I want to try and find something that honors just that, that, that unequivocal truth of horse culture across tradition.

Speaker 4 (01:11:07):

Right. I don't want it to be tribal. I want it to be true. You know, so I was, so what I was thinking is like, you know, look at what I was thinking was like, you know, there's the, you know, every horse culture has the name for horseman. So like for, you know, Spanish speaking people, it's Caballero for the, for the you know the how's the tribe in West Africa, it's Doty, you know? I mean, so I think that, I think that, you know, like horse, horse, horse, people, horse people understand that the work is only right. If it's from the heart and that the heart is the end of the world and the beginning of the universe, you see what I'm saying?

Speaker 4 (01:12:01):

And so it's, it's the, it's the end of, of, of tribalism and the beginning of truth. And that, that is, I, I feel that is where my road is gonna take me, Nick. I don't know what that's gonna look like until last week. I didn't, you know, I, I couldn't dream of possibly talking to you because right. I, you know, like what would it look, you know, I mean, it's so weird. It's kinda like spending the time, you know, kind of like spending the application to a horse expo, but I don't know who this person is. Sounds interesting, but you know, there's nothing that I can really cross references for. And so, you know, you spend your, you spend your, you, you know, because of social media, I'm able to send my workout, like flower pedals down the river, somebody will see it, somebody will see it.

Warwick (01:13:07):

Well, I certainly saw it cause that, that that thing you, you posted came across my, well, it was actually shared in a group of mine. Cause I was going to say it came across my Facebook newsfeed, but I've actually employed a, I've actually downloaded a what is called a newsfeed blocker on all the computers for Facebook. So I don't get a Facebook newsfeed it's blank. There's just a quote. Have you ever heard of that? And so like right now, if I go to Facebook, it's right in front of me, there's a quote it's by James Baldwin. And it says not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it's faced. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:13:48):

Yeah. Baldwin is one of my favorite writers.

Warwick (01:13:52):

Really? You get, so that just popped up, but that's all I've got there. And over on the side, I can go to any groups I'm in or groups that I manage or whatever, but there's no Facebook feed. So you didn't pop up on my feed. Someone shared that thing that you wrote on my face. One of my Facebook groups, that's how I came across that. You know what I think we should possibly start to get to these questions

Warwick (01:14:18):

That so I'm pretty sure, well, most people who listen to the podcast, but know how this works, but if you're, if you new to the podcast, I have 20 questions that I send to my guests. And they're actually, most of them are from a book of Tim. Ferris's called tribe of mentors, where he asks all these questions and I have the guests pick four or five of those questions. And in an earlier podcast, I answered all of those questions. So I entered, I've got a podcast is devoted solely to me entering all those questions. I've had my wife do it. So there's one of the podcasts has her doing it. And just last week, my son. So I have a 23 year old son who was helping me before with the tech stuff. He actually did it too, cause he's a bit of a, he's a bit of a wise soul too. So anyway, let's get a hold of your questions here. And that one of the questions that you chose was what qualities do you admire most in a person

Speaker 4 (01:15:14):

Heart. I admire people's hearts and I admire people who and value people who work from that space because they're helpful.

Warwick (01:15:35):

You know, what's funny is when I answered that question, I had a before and after, because it's, I've kind of, you know, I've had a big shift in the last few years, but the quality I'd used to admire most in a person was, was physical courage. Because that's something that I've always struggled with. But then I said, that was in the past. What I admire now is someone who is, has an open heart. And so, yeah, so we kind of have this,

Speaker 4 (01:16:04):

It takes a lot of courage. It takes a lot of courage to have an open heart. It takes a lot of courage to have an open heart. It's basically the, one of the most courageous things in the world that anybody can do is have a heart that's open enough to feel. That's what horses teach that when we, when we, when we, when we feel, we see plainly in without worry that we understand the, the intention, we understand how our questions reflect our intention. That's the courage, that's the courage that having heart takes.

Warwick (01:16:50):

I think so. Wow. Okay. I've got to get through these questions here. Number two, that I'm really interested in, what you think of this one. What do you think it means to be a leader and a follow-up and what does leadership slash followership look like to you?

Speaker 4 (01:17:09):

Well, I think that, I think that leaders aren't afraid to listen, and I think that followers aren't the, to speak and be heard. That's what it means.

Warwick (01:17:22):

Well, that was much shorter and sweeter than I thought it was going to be.

Speaker 4 (01:17:26):

Yeah. That mean that's, I mean, that's, that's what it is. You leaders are supposed to be helpful. They can't be helpful if they don't listen and they can't listen if nobody speaks

Warwick (01:17:35):

Well that no one's answered it that way before. And I, I L I love that answer. That's amazing. Okay. Next question here. What drum roll? What is your relationship like with fear?

Speaker 4 (01:17:48):

I love fear. Why

Warwick (01:17:50):

Does that not surprise me?

Speaker 4 (01:17:53):

I do. I love, I, I, I, you know my next step is always hidden behind what I fear the most. So I've, I w but I've learned not to be afraid of it, so I'm not afraid of it because that's a learned behavior. Being afraid is taught with fear is always there being afraid as a cultural thing though. So can you expand on that? Yeah, of course. So we'll go back to James Baldwin. James, have you ever written read, read any of James Baldwin?

Warwick (01:18:36):

You know, the universe works in funny ways. I've never heard of James Baldwin until I just went on my Facebook newsfeed blocker thing. And I said, there's a quote. And I clicked on it and the quote came up and it was this fellow named James Baldwin, who I've never heard of, but it turns out the person I'm talking to on the phone right now is a huge fan of James Baldwin's. And that's how my life works these days.

Speaker 4 (01:18:58):

Yeah. And I understand it because that's how mine, mine, mine, mine, mine works too. But James Baldwin was intellectual. He was a black gay intellectual in the 1960s during the civil rights movement. And he was friends with both Martin Luther King and Malcolm X who are giants of, of, of black upward mobility in this country. But he, he was kind of like this. He was kind of like this bridge between the artistic and the political, and he was so incredibly eloquent. And I have studied his work, like in the face of all of this stuff happening even lately earlier this year with all of these black people being mowed down. And he said something that really resonated as the post that, you know, that, that, that really resonated with me, that I was able to transfer kind of transform and put it in according to horses.

Speaker 4 (01:20:15):

And he was speaking about black, white relations in the sixties. When he said sister vibe, black people have to know more about white people than white people know about themselves. And in, he said, and it was part of his essay, one of his essay, or one of his lectures that he presented in England at the university of Cambridge or Cambridge, Cambridge university rather. And it's kind of like horses, right. To survive, to survive us courses, have to know more about people than people know about themselves. And, and I think that it could resonate a lot with how you, from what I'm hearing you say, how, when you become aware of everything you do, you can change how horse begins to respond to you. Right. But we have to understand that, like we are, we are, we're coming in thinking that we are wise and no, no. What courses? No, we don't know.

Warwick (01:21:14):

Yeah. Quite a long time. I've been on about an old Ray hunt quote that says, they know when, you know, and the know and you don't. And I used to think that that meant, they know when you know what you're doing and they know when you're done or what you're doing in the last few years, I've really flipped the switch on that. And it's, it's, they know when you are present and aware of both what's going on within you and around you. And they know when you don't know that. And if you don't know that they don't trust you, you're you're

Speaker 4 (01:21:46):

That's right. Yep. And we have Ray hunt and James Baldwin speaking about the value of awareness. Right. And again, so this, again goes back to the idea of the truth, that, that is the undercurrent between the tribalism. Right. We have Ray hunt and James Baldwin who didn't probably didn't even know the other existed, but they're saying the exact same thing.

Warwick (01:22:11):

Yeah. That's what I'm getting these days is all adults are just joining more and more all the time. And yeah, it's, it's that's pretty amazing, but Hey, that was, that was so cool hearing about about James Baldwin. I had no idea. I honestly, I'd never heard of the guy before.

Speaker 4 (01:22:29):

Yeah, no. A lot of people haven't. Yeah.

Warwick (01:22:33):

I happened to pop up on my, my quota, my Facebook right here while I was talking to you. And who else? Maybe you're probably the only person I know who could have given me that information on on James Bowen. So, yeah. Very cool. Next question. Last question for the day, and I'm really looking forward to this cause I'm sure it's been pretty cool. What's the luckiest thing that's ever happened to you?

Speaker 4 (01:22:58):

The luckiest thing, and I thought about this a long time, because, you know, you know, in retrospect my whole life has been a dream come true. So far full of a lot of laws, but I think the, I think the luckiest thing that has happened to me is that I've been given another chance to spend this precious human birth as a horseman. That's the luckiest thing that has happened to me that I, I, I, I, I have another, I have another go round the sun learning to love horses better, and serving people by helping them learn to love their horses better too. And, and seeing the value and the changes, the positive changes in people's lives that, that work brings to birth. I feel good that, you know, I can look out of my bedroom window and see my horses eating from their hay boxes, you know, during turnout time. And that when I need to cry, I can go down to my barn, anytime that I want now and know that my tears are safe with them. But still is my joy. And that, that is teaching me to hold that space for people, you know?

Warwick (01:25:03):

Huh.

Speaker 4 (01:25:06):

You know, I mean, and, and, and, you know, I mean, and, and, and that's the thing, right? Leaders listen, and that's all forces do, and that's what they're teaching me. And it sounds like they're teaching you how to do, you know, and what a gift, what a beautiful, beautiful gift.

Warwick (01:25:33):

Yeah. Well well I can't wait to listen to this thing back again, because this is going to be amazing. Yeah. I, I actually, I actually think you are quite a gift to not only the horse world, but humanity in general and, you know, we've been going for an hour and a half an hour, so we might wrap this thing up. I could talk to you for days on end, and I'm sure people could listen to you for days on end, but yeah, I think you, you have a gift. You have been, you've been given a gift and I think there are a lot of gifts wrapped up in one and I'm so so grateful and thankful for the, the work you were doing. And hopefully now you're writing those things that can get a bit more out there into the mainstream. I think, I really think there's a, I think there's a, I really think there's a global change in consciousness. And I really think right at this moment, a lot of people are ready to hear what you have to say. So I,

Speaker 4 (01:26:37):

I hope so. And if not the people who are will, you know I, but I, I wanna, I, you know, thank you for, thank you for trusting, trusting your, your yourself in reaching out to me. And you know, I hope that someday we can sit down over separate. That would be lovely.

Warwick (01:27:08):

I'm planning that already. So how can people contact you or how can people get in touch with you or how can people see you know, how do they find out more about you?

Speaker 4 (01:27:22):

Well, like right now I just have my Facebook page and like, that's you know, that's kinda my go-to because I don't, I don't, I don't do a lot of screen time stuff. But yeah, that would be the, that would be the easiest way you can send me a message, like you sent me a message. Yeah.

Warwick (01:27:43):

No website. No. Okay. Well, I'm sure the universal provides someone he'll help you with that. He pretty quick. So okay. I'm going to wrap this up, but once again, thank you so much for joining me. This has been the most, I've had some fascinating conversations on this, on this podcast. And every one I have is like a little more fascinating than the last one. And this one here was completely off the charts. So it's been such a pleasure to talk to you in such an honor. And thank you so much for joining us here on the podcast. And we'll maybe give it a bit of time and I'll have to have you back again when I'm ready for the next lesson.

Speaker 4 (01:28:23):

Sure. Thank you very much. Okay. Well, thanks so much for joining me.

Speaker 1 (01:28:28):

All right. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to the journey on podcast with work Schiller Warrick has over 650 full length training videos on his online video library@videos.work, schiller.com. Be sure to follow Warrick on YouTube, Facebook, and Instagram, to see his latest training advice and insights.