Curators Talking About Curating

Just what the heck is curating anyway? In their premiere episode, Jenn and Cliff talk about working with art and artists from two very different career perspectives. With a good dose of humour, they reflect on communicating and facilitating creative ideas, as well as their hopes, aspirations and dreams in episodes to follow. Super casual. 

Transcript

spk_0:   0:07
by everyone. And welcome to between to curate er's the podcast, where two friends and, well, curator's discuss art life and what, or rather, who inspires them? I'm Jen

spk_1:   0:22
and I'm Cliff. And for this grand debut episode, in a time where everything from gift lists to cafe menus to even your sock sure are curated, we want to approach the question. What is curating?

spk_0:   0:41
What is curating? Indeed, we're making it really simple for ourselves, but we thought that we kick off this question by doing something that we do best, which is talking about talking, Um, or, in other words, communicating aren't the way that this started was? Was it? A couple of weeks ago, Cliff, when I started this little Siri's cold art bites and I figured we could provide concise information and tit bits on exhibitions, artists and I invited you to be a guests. And turns out people wanted to hear more from you.

spk_1:   1:18
Um, yeah, I low. I do remember that people has one hear more from Eugen. Um, but I think generally speaking, that the gist Andi art such a rich field and has so much to offer art and artists. Um, the way they think about the world Onda. Things that aren't opens up, um, for you to be able to see the world in different ways that there's always so much to talk about and so many interesting people on things and, um, ideas out there and and we just wanted to get going with a little bit of a dialogue here, um, between two cures to, um, exchange some ideas and also to bring some interesting people into the fold. Interesting people that we meet along the way along our travels, which are at this moment in time from the lounge tiu the bedroom to the bathroom and back again kitchen as well,

spk_0:   2:15
their extensive, their extensive. I mean, I don't know if you've got steps where you are, but for us, it's pretty lateral moving. Um, but I think back to your point about about speaking. I think 11 point that we really wanted to get across was just be speaking at an accessible way, right? I mean, Cliff, you've been the senior curator at Hayward Gallery for a number of years, so there's being very true to our historical discovery, but also engaging different types of audiences right and not just staying within a very like, art historical speak. And I think that's something that we really want to flesh out.

spk_1:   2:54
Yeah, I agree. Absolutely. Yes. I definitely would agree. Yeah. So? So in in, um in my role anyway, at the at the Hayward Gallery, as a curator, as as an institutional or an organizational curator, Basically, you have this sort of middle person between Theodoric or the artists and the general public Andi wide variety of general public's. And so a large part of what you do is it's a facilitation role. It's or an interpretation rule, um, different ways of saying communicating, for example. So it's basically, um ah, sort of trading being the person between the interface between, um explaining, communicating, translating, um, or finding the best way to put forward on artists, artwork and ideas.

spk_0:   3:52
I love what you say about translating, and that's something that really resonates with with me. I mean, my path has been different. I lived in London than in Hong Kong for a number of years where I actually didn't do literal translation because that was far too difficult for me but was working primarily in the commercial sector and so as a gallerist occupying amore curatorial role. There was a lot of communication, but back to your term. Translation. You know, between artists, work to collectors. Artists work to curate Er's artists work to a general public who might just walk into your gallery and just tryingto engage right different groups of people into what you believe in and what you see Andi inspiring them in turn. I mean, it's borrowing, maybe is a bit lofty, but they're there is that aim. There is a

spk_1:   4:52
mm and you've also been of it on the speaking circuits. And that's probably giving you some of the the the foundation or idea to get going with the art bite. Syriza's Well,

spk_0:   5:02
yes, well, I do like speaking. I mean, I have a background in law, and at one point I thought I'd become a barrister. That was a sharp fail, But carrying forward, Yes, I've yeah, lectured at Sotheby's Institute, the Courtauld and so on so forth. And there is that passion for educating and sharing and hopefully away. That doesn't sound like you're stuck in the 19th century.

spk_1:   5:27
And what what gave rise to the the art bite Siri's, which is going really well when it's available.

spk_0:   5:33
Jensen's to grab it is available. My Instagram Thanks for the plug Art bites started about a month ago, which doesn't sound very long, but there is now a whole Siri's. And it started because off Art Basel, Hong Kong and their online viewing rooms on there was this opportunity Love, do you know? You know, there's still a lot of question marks, but any way you could, you could see the art. But what was really missing and what I really missed is having that one minute that one minute and 1/2 to speak with either someone I know, but also people I didn't know about the artists and the artwork and doing so in a way that was personal, informative, but also engaging. So I realized that while yeah, you could see something digitally that just took away the human element right that took away the soul from actual engagement communication, which is something that I really deeply enjoy. So I just started on a whim. Andi, the offshoots of that have been quite fun and quite incredible, but you've also done a lot of talking and engaging and I think this is I think everyone should out there should know that Cliff is an incredible coach. Um, maybe you could tell us a bit more about your coaching, right? And, um, how communicating for you is not just about art and in, ah institutional sector, its wider field.

spk_1:   7:12
Definitely coaching is something that I sort of like I found my wind to, I guess a few years ago, um, I trained up as, ah as, ah, professional coaching, pro fish, fresh coach, and, um, is something that I sort of took Teoh on and yeah, really enjoyed. And it So it's completely separate in a way. Teoh Day job Not wholly unrelated, as as we shall see through the multiple episodes that we record

spk_0:   7:44
as we shall see.

spk_1:   7:47
But it's it's a sort of a discipline of communication and away, um,

spk_0:   7:53
discipline of communication

spk_1:   7:54
when you're speaking 11 to 1 with a person and your Holy devoting your concentration. You thinking, um, to that person and the most important thing is listening. So yeah, I'm completely guided. Onda Listening to what the coach he says, Um, something quite amazing happens for the coach. He and a person who's talking and given the space and the freedom to work through particular issues or or just a place in their life, or just to actually find out what's what's making them take on the inside. Just the process of articulating that over an extended period of time without the other person sort of jumping in and saying, Oh, yeah, that reminds me of when this happened to me as a kid. So without that sort of interruption, But just having a space held open for this actually really powerful, um,

spk_0:   8:53
space to unravel.

spk_1:   8:54
Yeah, and it's something that we don't often have that in life is that Is that space to just have somebody listen and let us work through things verbally?

spk_0:   9:05
Yeah, that's something that I've been thinking about quite a bit. Listen, the distinction between listening Andi, hearing on Bond actually curated a project about that distinction earlier last year in 2000 and 19. But before I get into being super excited about this because I mean coaching and psychology, an engagement with humans, this is I could go on about that, but that's definitely not what we're here for to talk about today. maybe I don't know. Cliff, should we talk about curating or you know what the hell is curating through? Need a definition way? Have a running joke between us. Whenever, As you know, you said at the start when we come across another gift list on like, Here you go, Cliff, it's been curated. Um, So what is curating to you or for you Cliff Laws?

spk_1:   10:05
No. I got thrown my way first. Um, yes. Um all right. Yeah. So we thought we'd have to set this out a little bit because the podcast is called between two. Curator. So we'll have toe have to sort of lay the ground a bit. So I've spoken, I guess a bit about, um, curating as, ah, as a kind of facilitation. What? That means in in an organization of context between art and artists on the public. Um, but the determine the concepts goes way back to its roots. Like to curate to care for, um yep. And basically to like, you can hear us. You can have another cure. It s so you could care for somebody in a medical sense or even in a spiritual sense. Um, but in an art sense that's actually come through amore. Um, we tape musicological or collections based history where you might develop a collection you might develop the expertise that sits alongside that collection on bring bring a sort of specialist knowledge of objects and artworks into, um, to understanding into showing into sharing that work on a few dates back to things like cabinets of curiosity. Um, where lots of people explorers travelers were bringing many things back from around the world, lots of it also stolen. Um, but those cabinet secure

spk_0:   11:49
keeping us and checklists

spk_1:   11:51
not to be repeated a lot of confidence. Um, cabinets of curiosities, this fantastic one in the British Museum that everybody should go see when we are allowed out of our front doors again. But, ah, you know, various objects for around the world like demonstrate or show knowledge. So it's a way of developing a special ism of knowledge in the field.

spk_0:   12:16
Mm. This is making me think of the Pitt Rivers Museum

spk_1:   12:19
in Oxford. It's great example.

spk_0:   12:22
It's really like getting lost there. End of that sentence. Sorry, speak. And it was great. And that's that's the end of that story. Um,

spk_1:   12:38
but it's It's true that museums of today are places to get to get lost in there. Absolutely fascinating repositories.

spk_0:   12:47
Yeah, and I think it's It's such a interesting history to think about Onda also from the musicological side, which is which is very different to my experience off curating. In a practical sense, I mean, I would completely, completely agree with you. And I mean, at the end of the day, it it is Latin, so I can't disagree with that with the Entomology. But it does come from a place of pace of care, um, carrying about artists, caring about artworks. But I mean, a big thing that I've always been interested in is dialogue. Andi, when it comes to dialogue and I I studied art history in a university that was very, very, very traditional, very traditional. I don't think I can add any more varies on. And I think that initiated my my sense of discovery. So going off and living in Hong Kong for five years. So I've always been interested in creating dialogue primarily, I mean always in the in the contemporary sense, but between artists of different regions across different mediums, who you might not necessarily at first sight see a thread between but trying. Teoh, we've won, Ah, with delicacy but always thinking about that initial standing point, which is, you know, to care, right? Eso leading into each of the practices each of the origins but also looking at where they can go. And I would say that with me one thing that's always been I've been passionate about. It's about finding, you know, alternative approaches to exhibition making. So, in a sense it's actually quite different, you know, from the museum on. Do you know that really started when? When I was working with this commercial gallery, it was Milan Gallery and we started collaborating with nonprofits. Andi making exhibitions happen along with them or with external curate er's and finding spaces to do projects which, well, you what might not necessarily expect an exhibition to take place there. You know, I think back to a first example where we took over a private apartment in Liverpool or the time of the Liverpool biannual, and we exhibited an Indonesian collective called Trauma Rama. And you might ask, like, Why would you bother showing their work in a private apartment? Well, I mean it was because they were looking at the way the digital world was impacting our apprehensions of reality, especially in a domestic context. So it was curating. See matchmaking, Um, if one can call it that. And that sort of approach has followed since. I mean, we did an exhibition with an incredible artist called Union who creates these elaborate beautiful oil on canvas paintings. And we did it in a palazzo in Better Gamma, where it actually looked like his paintings were an extension off the bilateral right or most recently had a six month project space in a beautiful grade, one listed building in Islington, where we did a series off three exhibitions each time thinking about listening, quiet, meditation, different topics that might arise from entering a deconsecrated space. So, I mean, I think I bring this up because obviously that's my own personal trajectory. But it's also I think, it's just interesting to think about these different angles to curating right, even though it will have that very, very original core off care right? There's actually quite a spectrum

spk_1:   16:48
he absolutely is, and your your, um, listen great examples there, so it's curating as exhibition making which is probably, you know, how we kind of basically understand that term. And in galleries and museums and art in the contemporary world. Um ano and you mentioned Dramarama there who are great artists, that everybody should go look up. Um, and as well that consecrated church And Islington. That's where you have that, um listening. Hearing exhibition. Is that right?

spk_0:   17:20
Sorry. Excuse me.

spk_1:   17:22
That the consecrated church in Islington. That was where that you mentioned before on listening. Hearing was staged.

spk_0:   17:30
That's ironic that this is really funny. Excuse me? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. It was actually the very first exhibition that we held there. Andi. It was called Listen on. It was a site specific installation by a Chinese artist. Cold one way. And it was performative. And we I mean, my friends joke that I built a glass box in a church. But that is what I did. To be fair. You, actually so is a glass box in a church. And you had a performer who was inside every day. It was on rotation. Incredible project. I mean, the collaborations with the Courtauld students were the Courtauld RC a. So ask you name it and their point was to eavesdrop on visitors and because of the way that the box was lit Andi, uh, the texture off the glass, they actually became the subject of attention. So, yeah, that was really that was really poignant in enigmatic and really made you think about that fine line between hearing and listening and actually how we communicate and engage with one another. Right? So, I mean, it's an interesting example of how coming back to one of the first things that we said at the start of this podcast how art can be a trigger for thinking about wider things not to be so eloquent in everyday life.

spk_1:   19:03
Yeah, Yeah, I remember with the thing that was fascinating about it was like the deafening silence in this space is a huge, huge glass box of frosted glass. Um, with the with the person inside, backlit with some really strong bright spots. Um, just see their silhouette as they sort of engage you visually. But at the same time, there's this game happening amidst the deafening silence where Ah, yeah, they they're sort of listening to what's happening outside, and then you're trying to get sensitive. Where is that person inside the box.

spk_0:   19:42
Yeah, And I think just one thing that I'd add to that. I mean, this project, by one way, was first staged in 2000 and six in Beijing, and this is the only other time it's ever been recreated. And it's just interesting to think about evolutions of a project, you know, from 2000 and six to now. Like, what significance does that have, Right? Obviously, there's been a much people connect much more through technology. Um, what is the context around it? And I mean I mean, you must face that all the time as well, right? I mean, you've done a number off historical survey shows, and, you know, placing an artwork back then is completely different to context. Realizing it now, right? I mean, I'm thinking about the space shifters show, which I featured on art bites. Andi. Um, yeah,

spk_1:   20:35
which was

spk_0:   20:35
two rating as an evolving practice. Nine. It was Episode nine. Yeah, Good memory. To

spk_1:   20:43
be fair, were only an episode tendering

spk_0:   20:46
weird episode 12. Thank you very much.

spk_1:   20:50
Moving quickly. Um, but I mean with your example of that work first thing staged in Beijing. Um, besides artworks traveling across times. Absolutely fascinating. The whole thing is about communication and often silenced communication. Um or, um, I mean, in the context of being presented in Beijing, China suppressed communication because there isn't freedom speech in China, right? And so how one encounters that work there it could be It could be a work of protest that could actually be shut down by the government if it's taken the wrong way versus being presented in a place that has freedom of speech but also has a completely different visual history. I think of the way that people encounter and think about art when they meet it.

spk_0:   21:43
Yeah, it's gonna be a completely different approach. Um, I mean, now, I really felt tempted there to go down in a system ology route, like being like perception, Like how you perceive things. But maybe, maybe maybe we will save that. We'll save that for when ready, we're engaging Ah, psychologist or one of the very interesting people we hope to have chats with, right

spk_1:   22:10
on this historial back pocket

spk_0:   22:14
exactly in your back pocket.

spk_1:   22:16
But you're I mean, you're absolutely right that taking ah presenting art around the world in different context is absolutely fascinating. Exercise on. Do something. That's a privilege as well in what it is that

spk_0:   22:30
it is. It is. Yeah.

spk_1:   22:32
On, um, you know, certain work you can you can take around the world. And there is Ah, an exhibition I worked on called the light show, and

spk_0:   22:41
that

spk_1:   22:42
went Teoh, New Zealand, Australia and the United Arab Emirates and Chile. And, um, each of those times casual, total catch weight would have had the world map out there planning, planning, the travel. The only time I've worked on where we actually use both canals around the world first. Amazing. Yeah, but the you know, each of each of those audiences, it was really refreshing and and inspiring to see local audiences bring their histories of, you know, not just art, but a way of being, you know, for example, with the light show way of understanding, light and what light means in any given place. It has so much to do with less escape. It has something to do with you know how we negotiate cities and countries, and, um and so everybody would sort of brought their own perspectives, which was something that was really amazing to see

spk_0:   23:42
I love what you say about bringing their own perspectives, and I think that I mean, that leads in quite naturally to one of the reasons why we wanted to kick start between to curate er's right. Because obviously we're looking at art and artists and places when we are putting together exhibitions. But we're also really inspired by the people around us and how they see things and how they create and how they do. Um, so maybe clubs should we talk a little bit more about talking mawr?

spk_1:   24:22
This'd is the the alternate name for this episode of the meta episode? Yes. Talking about talking? Um, definitely. So, uh, I think what we aim to do in this podcast is have some really interesting dialogues about creativity and art will play a role in there. But we're definitely not going to focus just on artists on where we're already putting together some, you know, exciting. Ah, people from different walks of life, whether it's from food or film or science. Um, who else you got there, John? Architecture.

spk_0:   25:02
Well, I'm in architecture well being and fitness on dumb. I mean, I think it's really just a reflection off. Being obviously curator is and being in the art world, but also being humans, right? I mean, I was saying to clip the other day, we met what, like five years ago? On day? One of the things that was amazing is while we shared this passion four art Andi artists and so on so forth. It was also like, Oh, let's have a conversation about yoga on then All of a sudden we're having a conversation about design, and then suddenly we're having a conversation about something else, and it's what makes us up as people, right? It's It's of a more holistic approach.

spk_1:   25:49
Yeah, definitely recognizing the sort of interconnectedness of everything. And of course, all those All those wonderful people aren't just specialist in the field. But you know, of course, have interest in art and other forms of creativity and how they're all connected. So, yeah, we're hoping toe explore those connections. The the spaces between.

spk_0:   26:16
Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's so important, and I think it comes back to what we're talking about in terms of forms of curating. It's that lateral thinking. Andi, I know people have asked me beforehand. Like why art? I mean, I I mentioned briefly beforehand that I was initially studied law on. I come from a family of scientists and the reason that what I say to them each time is that for me, art is one of the most empathy. Empathetic. But see if I can get that out Is one of most empathetic get critical mediums. Ah, by which we can communicate about topics. So using it as a springboard to explore further revealed

spk_1:   26:57
infinitely relatable, all about communication. Definitely inspiring. Yeah, hopefully funny.

spk_0:   27:04
Yeah, it's totally fine. Yeah, half

spk_1:   27:09
an hour. It was just laughing at your own jokes. Um, so you wanna end every episode with little nugget a souvenir that you, too, can put in your back pocket as you're taking your daily walk? Um, so it's Ah, it's a question that we will set our speakers, but we're gonna ask ourselves the question for the first episode. So, Jen, what creative inspiration High. Um, what creative inspiration do you have for our listeners?

spk_0:   27:38
Mm. I love this question. Um, no, I could list out a bunch, but I'm gonna focus on one, and I think it's a really important.

spk_1:   27:49
You only get one. Good.

spk_0:   27:50
Um, I want to get one. All right. Okay. It's just stream it. It's about ah, permission to hover. So sometimes you'll have an idea. Maybe you're out for a walk. Maybe you're in the shower. Maybe you've just had a conversation with a friend and I like to let it just hover over my head. And maybe in a week's time or a months time, it could even be a year. It could be two years time. Another little piece of the puzzle will come into your life. Makes sense. And at that point you can grab that idea that's been hovering over your head and make it happen. And I think that that idea of hovering is a is an exciting one because it mean it doesn't leave you. It just means that maybe it's not number one on the agenda for today. And it's about also not forcing things. I really have found that things happen to unravel. So that's mine. Let things hover.

spk_1:   28:51
Very good.

spk_0:   28:52
That And what about you, Cliff? What creative inspo do you have for our listeners?

spk_1:   29:01
Very good women like that. Permission to hover. Um, which I first heard his permission to Hoover, and I thought, Well, we're also houses. Just give yourself permission to clean. It's gonna be OK. Um, but permission to have it might might not similar to that, Um, and it's about breaking patterns. And I think if and hopefully we'll hear the some other people as well that to find ah, kind of creative inspiration that you don't expect, you need to do something that is surprisingly unexpected. So, um, need to do the thing that you didn't think he would be doing or the thing that you don't actually want to be doing, um, or something that is a challenge. And, you know, there's lots of ways of challenging, um, yourself, ourselves someone when we're in Ah, some kind of quarantine or lock down. Um, yeah, but when one is doing that learning something new breaking patterns um, your mind works in a different way, and you will learn and be able to take things from that new way of thinking new way of doing things and apply them to the things that you are familiar to, uh that you're used to doing. Um, and you will then find new ways of thinking and making something that was old, new and exciting and creative. Once again,

spk_0:   30:27
I love that. I don't think I break enough patterns or I do it without noticing it. And I'm definitely going to be consciously thinking about doing that. I mean, obviously, right now we've been all force to break who surgeon patrons and I already see the benefits for, you know, the benefits from it for me as an individual in terms of yes, sleep primarily. But I love that. I'm gonna I'm gonna carry that forward with my day. Some food for thought

spk_1:   30:56
for good. So we are very much looking forward to rolling out a series of noon. Exciting guests?

spk_0:   31:03
Yes. We'll

spk_1:   31:04
start taping the next one right now. Um, you will start listening to the next one right now. Um, that's just keep press play for that.

spk_0:   31:14
Just Yeah, yeah, yeah.

spk_1:   31:17
Good. Well

spk_0:   31:17
and cool. Well,

spk_1:   31:19
this is us signing often. I'm going to go over. Um, yeah, and

spk_0:   31:24
you're gonna go, Hooper. And I'm going to break some bread. I don't No kidding. Okay, I'm getting awkward. Thank you.