Madam Athlete
Madam Athlete
Transferable Skills with University of Maryland Director of Sport Psychology Kristi Hall
On today’s episode, I’m talking to the University of Maryland Director of Sport Psychology Dr. Kristi Hall about transferable skills.
Kristi is currently the Director of Sport Psychology at Maryland and the owner and founder of Wholesome Minds, her private practice. Before branching out on her own, she worked for eight years in neuropsychology and forensics psychology, administering evaluations and helping diverse populations. Kristi also spent time working with veterans at the VA in DC, as they worked through issues including identity, injury, and teamwork. When the position at Maryland opened up, Kristi took a leap of faith and applied. She successfully made the case for how the sum of her experiences and strengths could help student-athletes thrive and perform and landed a job that had everything she was looking for wrapped up in one role.
We talk about:
- How to overcome the barriers of switching directions in our careers.
- Reaching out to those who have already found success and asking how they got there.
- Why and how to check in with yourself to avoid burnout.
You can find the show notes and more resources at https://madamathlete.com
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Welcome to the MetaMathly Podcast. I'm your host, dr Giselle Arnie. I'm a sports medicine physician with a passion for teaching and a mission to support other women with careers in this space. On this show, you'll hear the stories from amazing women in their field of sport and athletics. They'll share their journeys, triumphs and hardships in order to help and inspire you in your own career and life. Thanks for joining us. Let's do this.
Speaker 1:On today's episode, I'm talking to the University of Maryland Director of Sports Psychology, dr Christy Hall, about transferable skills. Christy is currently the Director of Sports Psychology at Maryland and the owner and founder of Wholesome Minds for private practice. Before branching out on her own, she worked for eight years in neuropsychology and forensic psychology, administering evaluations and helping diverse populations. Christy also spent time working with veterans at the VA in DC as they worked through issues including identity, injury and teamwork.
Speaker 1:When the position at Maryland opened up with a move to athletics, christy took a leap of faith and applied. She successfully made the case for how the sum of her experiences and strengths could help student athletes thrive and perform, and landed a job that had everything she was looking for wrapped up in one role. We talk about how to overcome the barriers of switching directions in our careers. Reaching out to those who have already found success in asking how they got there and why, and how to check in with yourself to avoid burnout. Hi, christy, I'm so excited to talk to you today. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I'm pleased to be here. I'm excited, nervous, but excited.
Speaker 1:It's going to be so great. We just recently connected because you were also faculty at the AMSSM Fellows Research and Leadership Conference. I'm going to get to that because I want to talk about your topic there. I always like to start at the beginning with your educational journey, because I know you got your bachelor's in psychology, Virginia Commonwealth University, and then you got a master's and then you got your SID. I'm just curious from the beginning, what were you thinking? Was that always your career goal, or how did that whole educational journey get started for you?
Speaker 2:Oh boy, yes, initially I was on a pre-med track at VCU of Virginia, commonwealth and I was a biology major. I thought I wanted to be a medical doctor, like you. When I entered into college I was just fascinated by psychology, and everyone takes those intro classes. I was fascinated by psychology and why the brain works and why people do the things that they do. I started taking interns. I had some undergraduate internship classes and courses in psychology. I was pretty much hooked.
Speaker 2:From sophomore year changed my major to psychology. At that point I still didn't know what exactly I wanted to do with psychology. As you mentioned, I got my master's degree and actually my first semester probably in my master's program I was introduced to testing. Then I learned that, okay, I think I want to continue on to get my doctorate degree so that I can test individuals, and I fell in love with assessments. From that journey I entered my doctoral program and even initially in that program my initial concentration was family, but then I immediately changed to health and neuropsychology again because I fell in love with testing and the process of learning how individuals think and why we do what we do.
Speaker 2:Initially I thought I was going to be an evaluator for the duration of my psychology career, I thought I was going to work with children. Because I did a lot of training at children's hospitals, I thought I was going to be a. Actually, I just thought about this In those rotations at children. I was introduced to sports, but on a different side. It wasn't performance psychology, it was again a lot of concussion training and what happens to the brain when athletes experience concussions. That was exciting. From there I moved on to forensics. I did a lot of training in forensic and health psychology and more assessments. Actually, I worked in neuropsychology and health and forensic psychology for about eight years after I received my doctoral degree in psychology. Like I said, I did assessments. I was an assessment psychologist, neuropsychologist and forensic psychologist doing those types of assessments and evaluations.
Speaker 1:As your first round. I love this story because I think one of the things that's so fun about this podcast is hearing everybody's journey and that it's not like 99% of the time it's not a straight line. It is like I thought I was going to do this and then this happened. I thought I was going to do this and then this cool thing interested me. I followed this path over here. If you look at your CV, it's like great psych, psych, psych. I know what I'm doing. I had this clear plan, but you were like well, actually I thought I do pre-med. Then I was like nope, this psych is what's interesting to me. Then I thought I might do this testing piece. Let me go into there. Oh, maybe I'm going to do this neuropsych. It's so fun to just see how it all unfolds.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like a total winding road. Total winding road. Within that span of time I created my private practice because I Should. I introduce how I got into sports psych.
Speaker 1:now I still want to dig into some of this early stuff because I'm just super curious because I know that you're doing that now and I do want to know I love hearing even that from the very beginning there was these little flavor profiles floating through of like I was working with kids with concussions and it maybe wasn't the performance, but it was there. It's always fun to find those nuggets after the fact to go, oh I know what. Here's this little inkling that led me down this road to where I am now. One of the things that I saw on your resume and I just wanted to ask and feel free to be like nope, don't want to talk about it One of your earliest jobs. I saw that you were psych evaluator, probably doing those testing, those assessments, and you were for juvenile sex offender treatment. Yes, I remember right.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, in sports and athletics and college student health, this is a thing that we have to do. Everyone, everywhere, women, have to deal with this, not just women. I remember one of the first times I'm a grown-up doctor working my job as a team physician and I'm talking to our psychology department, our sports psych folks, because we're just talking about creating EAPs for mental health and all this stuff. One of these things came up and they were like yes, and so part of our role is if something happens, if there's a sexual assault, if there's here's Title IX, how these things unfold. And then here are the services for the accused, for the person who did the sexual assault of here's their mental health treatment, and my mind just was blown.
Speaker 1:I just was like what? And of course everyone needs mental health care, like everyone does. But it was just I don't know, it was just sort of a wild thing to consider. I had never considered being on that end. So I'm just curious as, like your early job, as you're getting started, you don't have to talk about it, but just if you wanted to or willing to talk about, like what that was like, and I don't even know some of the lessons you learn from that that you just about practicing, about working with everyone, I don't know what might have come of that for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. Like I mentioned this winding road right that I went from neuropsych to forensics and within that forensic realm I worked a lot with juvenile offenders and even a large part of the population I worked with when I was inpatient forensics was young adults, young adolescent adults, and so within that working with that population helped me along the way, or along the road maybe, to work with the population I'm working with now and students and student athletes, to your point that it was exciting, but not so much exciting like, oh my gosh, it's like CSI but it was exciting, like you learn to have empathy for all types of people right, like you mentioned you have you learn to have empathy for the offender as well as the person who was offended, as you know, the victim.
Speaker 2:And I, for a fact, know that in psychology and other psychologists, you need to be able to be diverse, right and to have Be able to know how to work with different populations and different groups and Types of people. So that's really what helped me with that. We do have on campus we have a, a, as you know, you probably know, like we have a A sex offender is called care. So, basically, if an athlete is offended or if they, you know, just want to, something that they may want to report, if they had some sexual assault that happened against them but they wanted to be anonymous, you know they can go there to report it.
Speaker 2:But on the flip side of that, also, if the offender you know comes in and and they want to seek treatment or they've had their own experience, typically, in my experience, most people that are offenders not to give them a pass and not to say that what they did is okay by any means. At the same time, my role when I was, when I did that type of treatment, I was the person that worked with the offender right. So again it helped me to have you, know, empathy and understand what's the reason that they did this, and not only the reason that they did it. But how can we help them? Like what? What services can we provide to them that can help them in their own treatment?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, it's. It's such a, I think, a tricky thing. I really it's an important thing to have that Empathy for your patient and whoever is in front of you, you're the one taking care of them and it's like and it's weird sometimes to think about it in those situations. You know, I can think of sometimes working urgent ortho and we had a contract with, like, the local prison, so if somebody broke a bone, a fight, got out, whatever, then somebody come in, they're in their jumpsuit, they're in chains, you know they're in with guards and but my job is is no judgment, it's okay.
Speaker 1:You're here. This is broken. How can we help you feel better?
Speaker 2:like you know, I and it's.
Speaker 1:And it's, it's, yeah, it's, I don't know yes.
Speaker 2:You know, especially when you're earlier in your career and you know you read all these, then yes and you know case studies, and and then boom, the thing actually Happens in front of you.
Speaker 2:When you have this real life Patient in front of you and, to your point, you just care for who is your patient? Like you, you know, it's no judgment, so that really helped me to be able to care for anyone and in any environment. Really, um, you know, when I was in inference forensic, doing forensic work, in neuropsych work, you know they, they would tend to say, if you can work here, you can work anywhere. Right, and that really was what it was, you know, unfortunately, in that population and environment, which is which led me to say, okay, I, I'm gonna get skedaddle here.
Speaker 2:Yeah but um, you kind of get burned out, a different level of burnout than I think I've experienced Before. Like it, you get emotionally burned out right, yeah it is a tough population. We are human beings, even though we're trained professionals and trained clinicians. You are human being. You are a human being and seeing that, being exposed to that, having that secondary trauma that you know.
Speaker 2:I talked about that in my yes, but yeah that's the trauma that you experience day in and day out. It can be emotionally draining. So that's one of the reasons that, and especially, I knew that by this point, by that point not this point but by that point I knew for a fact that I wanted to pursue um sports site. You know, however that looked, I knew I wanted to pursue it, whether it was private practice or you know the role that I'm in now, um. But I knew that it was something else that I wanted and it just wasn't a passion for me. And I'm all about being able to work in a space, in an environment that you're passionate about. Um, because, when it comes down to it, work is work, right, but at least if you're working in an environment that you enjoy, it's you. I hopefully you don't get to that level of of um burnout where You're like I don't want to do this anymore, like I, I think I'm gonna, you know, switch and go to a whole different.
Speaker 1:Right, like you can't see any good out of it Right yeah yeah, so was this?
Speaker 1:when, so, did you start the private practice? Thinking about going into sports? Or how did you start your own private practice? Okay, tell me about starting your own private practice, because I am I'm always just so impressed with anyone and everyone who's just like and here, let me go do my own thing, I'm just gonna start a practice, I'm just gonna open a business, I'm gonna do this thing. Yeah, it's hard, like it is so hard. I mean, I find personal experience it's hard. So tell me, like this decision, how you did it, like how you made it happen, like what was it? Like I wanted I?
Speaker 2:literally started my private practice so I could do what I wanted to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, so I believe it was 2017. I think I have to look at my own cb. I think it was 2017, but, um, yeah, so I was still, you know, full-time. I'm a neuropsych and forensic evaluator, um, at the same time, like I said, I like I'm a person like I do a lot of things in high school.
Speaker 2:I played sports in high school and then, throughout college and Graduate school, I kind of like just, you know, sports was kind of like something I did as a coping mechanism, because I just love to be active and work out. Um, it's just helpful for me and I did not know there was a such thing as sports like until it was time for me to apply for internship. But I don't know if you know, you know that you guys is training probably is a lot similar to ours. You know, it's kind of difficult to kind of switch gears after you've already Done all this training and you know, on trying to apply for a certain internship role. You know what I mean. So, um, it sports like was kind of in the back of my head, like, maybe I'll get to it, Maybe I'll be able to, maybe I won't, you know, if not, I have this whole educational background and training in forensic and neuro psychology.
Speaker 2:So, um, again, fast forward to. You know, being just completely and emotionally Drained working in the forensic realm, um, I was like you know what? I'm going to do this on my own, I'm going to figure out how to pivot on my own, however that looks. I didn't know what it was going to look like, but I knew that I was smart enough and I knew that I could figure it out enough to do whatever I wanted to do. So I, um, started my private practice and it was just me initially, um, and so it at that time sports like wasn't as large or wasn't such a um I don't know if I should say popular, but popular thing back then, yeah, I said back then. I sound so old, but like.
Speaker 2:I, it wasn't like a thing, um, especially for new, for psychologists more so for um, just in my personal opinion, psychiatrists or like medical doctors it was.
Speaker 2:I just felt like Like, again, in my personal opinion, was quote unquote easier for medical doctors, kind of being that sports world, because Psychology, you know, it's a stigma to it, right, um, unfortunately, yeah, unfortunately, um, so, yeah, so I started a private practice and then I was like, okay, what am I going to do now?
Speaker 2:So, again, like I said, I was training and people that I worked out with and like my own Chaya practice and you know I have pt friends that are also in the sports world were for a client to me, um, and then I also saw outside training from um, one of the sports psychiatrists back then he was working with the Orioles and he also, um, I think he was a professor at Maryland, um, but I thought I like sought him out for training and I knew I could. He couldn't supervise me because he was a psychiatrist. Anyway, I worked with him, um, and he, you know, helped me a little bit, gave me some guidance as to how, how he works with athletes or how he works with athletes. Again, he had no formal training in sports psychiatry at all and he was like yep, I just decided I wanted to specialize in this and I got my own training and now I work with the Orioles and now I call myself a sports psychiatrist. I said, okay, that that's what we do.
Speaker 2:Okay, um, so, yeah, so my long. I hope I answered your question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that was great. I think it's. I think it's awesome and inspiring because I, like you said, it's really hard that inertia, like to switch fields and to say, ah shoot, I figured this out too late, I was doing all this stuff. It's like that sunk cost fallacy, like I've already spent all these years doing this one field and but like people switch and people reinvent themselves and they pivot and it is okay and it is a thing to do. It's not necessarily easy, like we're not pretending that it's easy, but, um, like it's doable.
Speaker 1:And the fact that you're like I am going to make this pivot and get into what I'm interested in doing and I'm going to figure it out, like I think that's also another thing People want. Here is the straight path directions. I mean, like I do, I want the here is the direction manual for how to make a business work, like just tell me exactly what to do and I will go through that checklist and I will do it. But when it's like you got to just wing it, like just good luck, there's a million ways to go make this happen and you got to figure out the way that works for you, that's overwhelming and hard, and so the fact that you were like. I know that I can figure this out.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 2:I can figure it out, I can do it, I love that, yes, it's doctor is david mcduff, um, so he's a psychiatrist and he he worked with the orioles. I don't know if he still does, but he did a lot of trauma and like addiction and um, so I don't know how I found him. I just was like I want to do something different. I know this is what I want to do. And I found him and he was willy enough and this was years ago. He probably doesn't even remember who I am, but this was years ago.
Speaker 2:I saw him out and he was like, um, he didn't have anyone, like I said, he didn't have an, he didn't have a psychologist in his practice that I could work under and train under, and because our feels are obviously different, um, but together, but you know, coincide, but different, um, I couldn't necessarily train under him, but he did give me some guidance, so that was pop. That was like how I Said okay, if he did it, then I can absolutely do it, like I didn't know where it was gonna leave me to, but that's how I got started.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love the like I'm gonna figure it out. And then also the All right, who's doing this? Let me just go hit them up. Yeah, I'm afraid of that. I like I've now figured out how to talk to strangers and email random people, and, like Raj introduced us at the conference that I was like hi, kristy, let's be best friends.
Speaker 2:I would like to have a podcast.
Speaker 1:Let's talk right. Like me three years ago, that would have never happened, like ever. And now, like I reach out to somebody Um the other week who is doing this really cool career thing and I just personally wanted to know all about it and be like Maybe this is a thing that I could do. And I was like, hey, you might not remember me, we talked once six years ago or like seven years ago about this, but I heard you did this cool thing.
Speaker 1:I'm really fascinated by it. Could we talk? And he was like, yes, just I would love to, let's do it. And we set up a zoom call. We talked for an hour like it was amazing and Like just being willing to go reach out and do that right, just like reach out to people. I think more often than not, you're surprised that people are like oh sure, cool, I'll talk to you. You want to do this thing that I like and think is awesome. Yeah, I'm happy to talk to you about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah for sure. That's literally how I got started. So here I am.
Speaker 1:So that's just brave and badass and awesome.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:All of it. So at what point? So you've had your business for like six years now. It's grown, there's more. It's not just you anymore, no, it's not just me anymore.
Speaker 2:I have, um, I have five consultants that work, licensed consultants that work for me, and they don't all focus on in sports, only myself and another clinicians focus within sports. Um, but yeah, they, you know, primarily focus on um anxiety and depression, which also translates, as you know, over to the sports world, but anxiety, all of the world.
Speaker 2:Right, everybody, trauma and relationship and just normal. You know, day to day we call it the worried will, yeah, of issues and concerns. But yeah, so I have that. I'm, hopefully it will grow more. I had to, you know, hire an office consultant because obviously I don't have time to manage that and in fact I don't. I'm not even accepted in any new clients because I just don't have time. But yeah, like it's, you know, um, obvious. Well, I don't know your, your viewers can't see me, but I'm a black woman and you know a lot of the stigma, not just the stigma for the general population, but more so within the African American black community.
Speaker 2:And this is a, this is generally speaking you know there's a stigma around it and you know just not having a psycho education, not having someone that you know, that is licensed or that you know knowing anything about psychology or about you know psychological issues or or diagnoses, and you know just not, like I said, generally speaking, not having that psycho education. So obviously we see anyone it doesn't have to be someone that is African American or black or that identifies that way, um, but I didn't want to have a safe space, that, or a space for, you know, the population that wants to be seen by clinicians of color, that they can do that.
Speaker 1:Um so, yeah, Well, we know how important that is right, that representation like as kind of breaking down one of those barriers, because when there's such stigma and when there is such um you know, rightful concern for how is the medical community treating me and my people and people like me and um and and there's not enough physicians and providers and psychologists and every like down the line in medicine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. So, and just the clinicians that I know mostly aren't in the private practice world and it is hard for people to find clinicians you know to be seen by Um, so that's also a reason.
Speaker 1:And yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's one of my wise.
Speaker 1:That's incredible. So, like you were, did you just like fully quit your day to day job like your forensics, nervous like eval job to start this, or did it transition and like?
Speaker 2:you were doing a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of, um, so like everything, covid hit right. Yeah, that little, that whole thing, yeah. But honestly so I think I think I decided I just, I don't know something in me, I you know cliche, I prayed about it but no, I didn't, and I was like, okay, I don't again.
Speaker 2:I just I didn't jump out like um, I'm one of those people that I do take risks, but the larger risk. Sometimes it takes me a while to like just do it right. So I have probably been thinking at least maybe a year, at least, really really like planning six months to leave, because I was at an inpatient forensic facility where I was doing neuropsychological and forensic evaluations and, like I told you, I was emotionally burned out. I really like not really. I liked the population, I liked my patients, but it was just too much.
Speaker 2:And I knew I wanted to do something different so I decided I was going to leave and I didn't know what that was going to look like. I was anxious because I was student loans right Like I had. I was in the student loan for public student loan service forgiveness program. Yeah, and I spent eight years in and I was like, yeah, like my friends are like what are you doing? And at that time nobody really knew if your loans are going to be free or not.
Speaker 2:I was like, whatever I don't know If it happens in the future, it happens. I was just like I'm over it, Like I'm going to leave. So I had eight years in and I went full time private practice and I wasn't. So this is another thing. At the time I was still nervous to do private practice by myself. So I still had my practice, that I had my own clients then and it wasn't a lot. So I don't want I don't want people to think she had this thriving private practice back then. I did it, but I didn't have my own practice. I didn't have my own practice and I still felt like I needed to learn, because in school they don't really teach us the business part, right?
Speaker 1:Nothing, not a single thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they don't teach you anything, unfortunately. So what I decided to do was I worked at one private practice in McLean where I did only testing, and then I worked at another private practice which was one of my friends practices in Silver Spring and she had been trying to get me to work with her for years and I was like I'm not doing that, I don't want to do therapy. But I started with her doing therapy. So I split my time and I enjoyed it. I like the private practice world. The only thing about it private practice is it is. It can be. It depends on what, how the practice is set up. It can be isolating and lonely and for me that's like a people person. I really like a team aspect. I really like, you know, a collaborative approach to treatment, whether it be assessments or therapy. So I enjoyed it. But it was. It was. It was very demanding and then COVID hit right. So when COVID hit, I swear I could have worked around the clock If I want to. It was. It was a lot, obviously, and so I did that for for I don't know how long I did it after COVID, but I knew again. I was like, okay, this isn't really looking how I thought it was good, or or how I I didn't even know how I thought it was going to look, but it wasn't looking how I wanted it to look at the time. So then I just decided to apply to everywhere under the sun that I thought my skills were transferable and that I thought I wanted that I would enjoy working with the population, like my thing is always doing what I want to do and enjoying, you know, utilizing obviously you know my clinical background and acumen, but also enjoy what I wanted to do and helping you know my patients. So I was high and I even thought about going back home to, like top water area closer we're closer to home, like my brother lives here. But I thought about going closer back to home where my parents are. So I was even hired at the Naval base back then and I accepted the position and I went and I even signed for an apartment and the week before I was supposed to start my brother was like, do you really want to do that? Are you just? Do you just not know what you want to do right now? And I was like you know what? I'm so glad you said that, like because my parents were so excited for me to come back home and I let them know that I wasn't going to come. That was scary too.
Speaker 2:And I ultimately was hired with the VA. So I worked with veterans, with the veteran population in DC. So I worked with them for like a year and a half and I still had my practice on the side. So, although I stepped away from my the two practices I was working with, with the one in McLean and with my friend I still had my practice. So I saw, you know, clients, a couple of like, probably like five. I probably had a case load of five that I was working with outside of the VA because I just needed some type of balance, you know. And then that became overwhelming too, very overwhelming, and so I was like I think I'm going to pivot again.
Speaker 2:And somehow within that, I applied for the position at Maryland, for the director position, and I was nervous because I was like I don't have I don't know if this is one of your questions but I was nervous because I was like I don't have the you know special training for sports psych and I don't have the educational sports training for, you know, sports psychology. But I had all the other criteria of, like you know, being a director, because I was. I was in director role at the VA and obviously I had all the clinical skills and backgrounds from all the diverse populations I had worked with and just all of that helped me in this role that I'm in now. So I was like this is perfect, this is what I've always wanted to do. You know all the way that. You know all the things that tried to kind of like piece together on my own, like it was a package in this. You know nice package. How I like it.
Speaker 1:It's so convenient of you to put this all together into one job for me.
Speaker 2:Thank you for doing this for me. So I apply and that's kind of what got me to here, because I, you know, working and really working with the veterans, because they have the mindset like the athletes do too. You know we're a team, we're all working together, we're not leaving anyone behind, and they also suffer, or I don't want to say suffer, but they also have a lot of, you know, identity and confidence, especially, you know, leaving the military like not knowing what their identity is or who they are outside of.
Speaker 2:you know, being in the military, similar to the athletes and unfortunately if they suffer injury, you know it's very difficult for them to kind of manage that as well. So that really those skills that I, that I acquired with the VA and working with that population, are so much transferable to athletes. So I don't even know the original question, but that's where I am now. I love it.
Speaker 1:I don't remember either. But because this is so fascinating, because I love kind of like I said at the beginning, I love all these windy, twisty journeys and how things unfold, and there was this like little tiny baby sports thread at the very beginning and, like in your personal life, there was a big sports thread and then it kind of like kept growing and growing and you just kept figuring it out Like the whole time. You're going like all right, we're going to try this, is that it? Oh, nope, that wasn't it. Let's pivot over here.
Speaker 1:I'm going to try this, I'm going to figure this out, is that it? Maybe, maybe not. That was for a little while, but it's not anymore. Let me go try this, right. And then now and I'm not even saying this is the be all end, all job, right, who knows where you're going to be in five, 10 years, like what cool new thing you're going to be doing. But like now you are the director of sports psychology for the University of Maryland, you are full in the sports psychology world, like deep into this, and it's just like it's so fun to see all those little steps along the way that like, as you're going through, sometimes it doesn't feel like they're adding up or going anywhere. What am I doing? But like when you look back and you go ah, I see this. This is where we were headed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all the little, all the little pieces of the puzzle I feel like just magically came together, which it wasn't magic but that's how it feels right, like all the little pieces of the puzzles and even because for such a long time, although when I was working inpatient, I aspect of my job was therapy and treatment, the larger part was assessments.
Speaker 2:But even in those assessments, learning how the brain works and learning while we do the things that we do with the evaluations, and even, like I told you, the concussion clinic early on in my career even that was when I was a student, a doctoral student but all of those things and all of those nuggets working with the VA, like learning mental performance and mental recovery and those types of skills, it's all come together to help me who I am now and in my director role now and I split my time now between administrative work and hands on working a lot doing the mental performance work and I have a caseload to of individual student athletes, and so all those things came together to, like I said, like build the roll out. For that I am now at the University of Maryland, yeah.
Speaker 1:I love it. I think that's another little piece of it too. That you said of like and I just applied for it and I didn't have all those pieces, but I had all of these pieces and like. Here's what's gonna make me go for that. I think a lot of women we know in the studies they don't apply for jobs unless they think they meet 100% of the criteria and do's will just apply if they're like. That sounds cool. Like they might not be able to do it if they just toss their application in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we need a little more of that. We need a little. And like you weren't just being outrageous applying for this job, you're like, here are the things that I am well qualified for this and like, okay, I don't have that traditional pathway over here, but here's why I'm gonna be actually awesome at this and believing in yourself and figuring it out and going for it Like that's awesome. We all need a little more of that attitude. We're just gonna borrow from you. We'd be like remember that time that Christy went for it, not just like like just threw her hat in the ring outrageously, but like talked herself up and reminded herself that she knows all her shit and she's actually really good and knows all these things. So like, sure, maybe it doesn't look perfect, like traditional, have these things, but look at all these other amazing things I have and how they're gonna translate For sure absolutely yeah, thanks for that.
Speaker 1:Well, it's awesome, it's inspiring. I love that. So, all right, you're kicking, but you're doing all this amazing stuff. You have been doing all this amazing stuff this whole time. Now what? So? Like I said at the beginning, how we met was we were both faculty for the AMSSM Fellows Research and Leadership Conference, which happens at the end of July, so it just happened we just finished that up the other weekend. But you gave a really incredible talk on burnout and I was like I'm just gonna sit in the back, I gotta get some work done. And I kept being like. I just kept like listening to you and not doing my work and not doing my UDLs, but I was just like whatever you want me to do.
Speaker 2:I guess I did, but I was supposed to do this. Thanks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you sucked me right in and it was very good and it was just like ugh, it was incredible. And I just thought, for funsies, like I obviously cannot ask you to recreate your you know, like hour long presentation for everyone on this podcast, but like if you have some just words of wisdom for women who are going through burnout, especially in their career, like you said, like sometimes it's just the emotional burnout or it's the time commitment burnout or it's the being taken advantage of burnout or all these things. If you have any kind of like. This feels like a really rude question. Just take all the amazing information you know and have studied for decades and learned.
Speaker 1:And just, could you just give me like two sentences? That's rude, like feel free to have more than two sentences, but if you have any words of wisdom for women currently struggling through the burnout in their career, what, what, a what wisdom would you share?
Speaker 2:I think, initially I would say to just you know, stop for a moment, because to your point, a couple of minutes earlier, you said that men, they and this is just generally speaking but like studies have shown that men do, they just apply right, they just go after it. And I think, for us, we do go after things, but in a different way, Like we keep going, but in a different way. We keep going and we neglect ourselves and we neglect our mental health and our physical health because we're just going, going, going. So I think, first things first is just, you know, giving yourself the gift to just relax for like five minutes, 10 minutes, 15, if you feel like 15, you don't have time for 15 minutes, that means that you need to take time. Yeah, Right, If you're like I don't even know where I could find 15 minutes in my day, Then that's your first indicator. You need them so badly, you need it so badly. Right. But just like you know, tap into yourself and give yourself permission. If you're the type of person that is like me and your your life is, you live your life by your agenda or your calendar and the things you have to do, not to make self care another to do thing on your list, but maybe you do need to schedule it initially to you know for you to say okay, this is the time that I have to relax and just to sit with myself and just to reflect. And, you know, do some meditation and check in with yourself. Are you, have you taken time to step away from work? Have you taken time to step away from your household responsibilities? And that doesn't mean neglect them, but it also doesn't mean neglect yourself so that other people can thrive either. You know what I mean. So that's just, that's just step one.
Speaker 2:Sometimes we don't even know how to do that, even right, or you might, or if those things, or if thinking about telling yourself or giving yourself permission to step back, that makes you feel guilty, that you know, geez, like I don't I feel badly, or I do feel guilty if I, you know, tell my children or my boss or my coworkers that you know I need to take a day off on a Wednesday or whatever. I just made that up, Then this is who I'm talking to, right? So step one is checking in with yourself, always checking in with yourself, and I like to tell people, I like to suggest, you know, a everyday check in, like in the morning, before we reach for our phones. You know, just before you, as soon as you get up, check in with yourself and just ask yourself you know, how am I feeling Like, did any feelings from the previous night like maybe you went to bed anxious or maybe you went to bed overwhelmed? Are those feelings gone? Have they like carried over to the next day?
Speaker 2:So check it in with yourself, maybe doing some, taking just a few quick, quick, deep breaths before you wake up I'm sorry, not before you wake up, before you get up, before you, like I said, before you reach for your phone or your agenda or whatever for that day. So just check in with yourself and see how you're doing. And if you are anxious, you know, like I said, take some deep breaths and like center yourself. And if you're like geez, I don't even have time to do that, and you know, sometimes it's like maybe you don't, but kind of, maybe you need to build that time in right.
Speaker 2:So like five minutes, even before you check on your kids, not to neglect them, but to check in with you first before you do that. Like just five minutes, you know. And you know sometimes people like geez, we'll already get up at, like you know something crazy 545 in the morning. Okay, well, five less minutes, what's that? You know? Like let's just get in a practice of asking yourself how do you feel?
Speaker 2:A lot of times women again, generally speaking, women tend to be caregivers and caretakers at home, and then we're also caregivers and caretakers at work. And then who's left to take care of us or who checks in with us? Right, I know, for myself, at the end of like one day before the semester ended, I swear I saw like 16, 16 student athletes and for us for a clinic, for a psychologist, that is a lot. That's, you know, 30 minute, 15, 20 minute sessions, like that's a lot, right? Like I was totally burned out that day and I wanted just so badly for somebody to be like, well, christy, how are you doing? You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:And sometimes our normal reaction is to say, or our normal response is to say, oh, I'm fine. Even that, before you say I'm fine, or our mindless response, pause and like, check in with yourself. Even if you tell them, fine, at least check in with yourself and see, well, how am I really feeling, right? Like, am I frustrated because I'm tired? Am I sad because? Or again, frustrated or sad because, you know, I'm hungry? Or I've gone all day and I haven't, you know, taken time out to have any type of nutrition meal for myself? Like, how are you feeling? So that's, you know, step one check in with yourself and ask yourself how are you feeling. And then next step what is it that you need? You know, do you just need someone to ask you how are you doing? Do you just need to? You know, check in with yourself and set fire for yourself how are you doing. And then also, don't get upset with people if they don't ask you how you're doing. If you've taught them that it's okay to neglect you because you've neglected yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so tough. There's so like I think, oh my gosh, I think so many things, like I think that taking that time to reflect on yourself is hard, because I think one of the things I think that goes on is Like not only do we feel bad, but we feel bad about feeling bad because we should be happy.
Speaker 1:We should be productive, because we should be getting all this stuff done, because we should be doing better, we should be happy about this and like so then you're not only just like not feeling good, you're like putting guilt on the not feeling good.
Speaker 1:I'm good about not feeling good and it's just like, oh, like I don't want to sit here and examine this like and you know, I was talking to another guest recently and we were talking about trusting your gut and I think some of like what we are taught as women is Because of that caregiving role that we are expected to take on both that woman in the workplace that our gut doesn't matter and our feelings don't matter.
Speaker 1:And we are, we're there to like, make sure everybody else feels good, and so, like, you stop trusting your gut, so you stop going. How do I feel? Because it doesn't matter, and and even if you're like, how do I feel? I don't feel good, you're, you're told like that's a failing of yours, right, like, and and you need to just suck it up or you'd be right, yeah and instead of going, what do I need?
Speaker 1:and maybe what you need is not this boss, and that's not a quick fix. That is not a quick and easy thing, but sometimes just knowing what that thing is and going, ah, yes here's the problem. It's not. Your gut has been trying to tell you about this forever, ever, right, you have just been Neglecting it and pushing through, pushing through. Yeah, and then that's not helping you, it's not helping you at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and not only is it not helping you, but it's not helping your co-workers and and you know this is a part that I talked about that leads Leads to burnout like, or even compassion fatigue, but it's not helping you. It's not. And because it's not helping you, you may not think a lot of us tend to you know, I'll have a lot of clients, or Even myself even like oh, you, you didn't like I thought I was hiding that. No, you weren't hiding Like you're, like you're, because you weren't checking in with yourself and trust in your gut, like you said. Um, then you know you're frustrated or irritated and you're bringing that on to work and you're, you know, projected it to your co-workers. Yeah, you're, you know, projecting on to your clients or your patients, even though you're not trying to.
Speaker 2:You don't think that you are, but you are yeah, so it's affecting everyone around you. We're in if we did take the time to just say, even if you acknowledge, right, maybe you're not at the point in where you're ready to um, do anything about it or change, but at least if you acknowledge how you feel, like yeah.
Speaker 2:Knowledgement is so important right like you can acknowledge, then we can move towards Some type of change for you and you know, like kind of figuring out well, what do I need? Maybe you don't know what you need, but at least if you acknowledge that I need something like this, isn't it? Yeah, then you can move towards figuring out what it is that you do need like.
Speaker 2:I have some, I have some Clients, and you know patients I'll work with currently or in the past that you know, as soon as they sit down or as soon as we Start like tears have come down because they've like held so much in for such a long time, and they apologize especially the woman Apologize, yeah right, like I'm so sorry. You know I'm crying. Well, it's okay, it's because you know that emotion you know is right on the surface and so we need to just check in with ourselves and you know that's how your mental health affects your physical health. And people like, oh my gosh, mental health is real, yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:You have all this anxiety or pressure that you, you know a lot of times, yeah, on themselves Because, for whatever all the reasons, whatever reason, and then that that starts affecting your you physically and physiologically. So, yeah, just that one simple thing of like a self-check-in, that is so helpful that you know, and a lot of times we just jump up and we go and we are like, geez, I have to get to what I have to get to and again you neglect yourself.
Speaker 1:So yeah, oh so much. And I like just thinking when you talked about how, like people know, like you think you're hiding it and like, but people know, like I had a particular situation and I it was a work Thing that did not go the way that I was hoping it to and it's actually really devastating, and I just like I was Unhappy, I was angry like I was, but still having to do my job like it's right, like wanting to do good, and I thought I was still, you know, like doing fine. And then I like once I finally checked in with myself, once I finally worked through making that change, having that plan and being like, all right, here's what's happening, right, this guy that I'd worked with for years, I Was telling him about this and he was like, just, I'm so happy for you because you look happy and I haven't seen you smile Six months.
Speaker 1:Wow and I just like, had no idea, you know like.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like, no, like, nope. So so out there on my face. Like you know, I have a Resting. This is me being neutral and not judging you face, but really everybody else reads that as the accurate. I'm thinking you're a fucking asshole like part of all of my friends.
Speaker 1:But I am there like Thinking oh no, sir, like I was on a panel for women athletes and it was all women on this panel, but for some reason we had a male moderator and every stinking question that somebody came up he had to just put in his two cents and my base. I'm sitting there, vince, that I am giving neutral face. And all of my friends came up to me afterwards were like you are so pissed.
Speaker 2:I.
Speaker 1:Could all tell and I was like oh yep, I was not actually hiding that.
Speaker 2:Right, right, I try to do the. I've been trying I don't know I still need to work on it Like I try to have the, the neutral but caring face, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:This is my new idea I was talking about has it about this the other day is like I need that zoom filter that Like Microsoft Teams filter, that is just like AI needs to just take my face and put it into neutral and Interested and neutral concern, neutral, like you know, and just, and I could just push that button and then I could roll my eyes, make the face that I want right, right, exactly, listen.
Speaker 2:Ai is doing a lot of things, but that.
Speaker 1:I need help with that. On that somebody, I need help with my neutral face.
Speaker 2:For sure, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, your talk was so Wonderful and I'm really glad the fellows got that at the beginning. I think it's one of those. You just probably need these reminders throughout your career. You do right like they're coming in all optimistic and happy and it's like revig, it's invigorating, it's like energizing for me to be like, oh look, all this like positive, new, exciting energy, and then I'm like cool, let's see how this goes down.
Speaker 2:And I also think it's important on the front end too, because, you know, it's like with a new job, right? Like yeah, and overachievers, like Like I'm certain that we both are. Obviously we wouldn't get to this point, but like, whatever, you know environment, career, athletics, whatever, yeah, you know career path. Like you tend to want to perform well, right, obviously, you wouldn't be doing it if you didn't want to, so you want to perform well. Sometimes people have a difficulty with boundaries yeah, boundaries, it's not a bad word Like you know panacea to when you respond to emails. And like you do want to be that go-to person, but again, with boundaries, right, like, yeah, no one, you know what. How are you teaching people how to treat you?
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Are you letting, are you teaching them that, hey, we can go to her at any time? Or, you know, at midnight she's gonna respond to an email. She just had a baby today. Who cares like you know she and you know neglecting. You know taking time out for yourself like you don't have to go, you know on the most extravagant vacation, even like having to stay home, like a staycation is important. You know, sometimes you know you're just in and out in our home like, well, maybe that's just me.
Speaker 2:Sometimes you're just you know going, going, going, that you don't have time to just even relax and watch a TV show. You know, yeah, yeah, or reading a book, or whatever it is the thing that you enjoy doing, so remember into getting back to that and you know finding a hobby if you don't have one. Sleep is so important, like sleep is so vital and sometimes we'll neglect sleep because you know we can sleep when we die. No, you need to sleep now, now, so you don't died soon.
Speaker 2:Yes so, yes, it's. You know. I started off by saying it's important because they're so. You know, like I said, either like the fellows starting your career path off or a new job, or, especially as women, like, if you're, you know, pregnant and or either getting married, you don't want others around you, not even like a male boss, but you know, just others around you to think that, oh, I can't do it all or can't handle it all. Well, it's important to take some space for yourself and, like, have those healthy boundaries to know that it's okay, but because we're not, we shouldn't do it all. Right, like it's okay to ask for help and it's okay to say, geez, like it's not that you can't do it, it's just maybe you can't do it right now, or maybe you can't do it today. You can do it, but maybe it doesn't have to be done right now, you know, and so, just you know, having those, like I said, boundaries and taking that time out for yourself and you know.
Speaker 1:They do not have to figure it out at the beginning. Right, we're all gonna work on it all the time.
Speaker 2:Before, like people like a lot looks up and I didn't want to do this anymore. Well, probably because you didn't check in with yourself along the way you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, and if you have been checking in with yourself, you're like I, yeah, no, I really don't want to do this anymore, but it's. But you, you're coming from it from a like informed place, right, because you really have been thinking and reflecting and taking that time and Checking that like, was it you know that boss? Was it the job? Was it the work? Was it the patients? Was it the environment? Right, and then right, instead of just that knee jerk like I'm burnt out. I can't do this. Goodbye, right, I love it. Okay, well, all right. So that was your lecture in mini miniature form. Right, it's very good. So, um, all right. What I wanted to ask because I ask everyone is what particular challenges have you faced in your career? What things have been difficult have you had to overcome? Are things that you still struggle with today?
Speaker 2:Um, I think that's a great question. So, as um, I think now, as like, while as it was, I think, looking back at it, like when I was figuring out, I'm just gonna figure this thing out. I don't know what it's gonna look like, but I'm gonna do it. Now that I am here, it's some days I do like I am nervous sometimes, like you know, when I have to meet with a new team or a new coach, or just walking and working in this field of athletics as a psychologist, it's you know, we wear many hats, like there's well, at least I do there's the administrative hat, there's the clinical clinician hat, then there's the sports performance hat, and so you know, I believe my personality has helped that. But also, like personality, you know clinical background and you know acumen. But, just like you know, sometimes you just want somebody to tell you you're doing it right. You know, yeah, yes, and you don't get that a lot so well, not that loud. Like you know, like obviously it's very rewarding, you know, but in the moment you don't know if it's gonna, like I said, quote unquote, turn out, whatever right is. You know, and just you know being able to say okay, let me take a quick, some quick deep breath. If I can talk, right, let me take some quick, deep breaths.
Speaker 2:And you know I have like knowing what I know, what I know, right, like a lot of times, especially when I started you know a lot of the ATC or athletic trainers, and even some of the coaches. They were like, okay, so what school did you come from? And I was like I didn't come from a school I didn't come from, you know, formal sports training, but these are things that I have to offer, right, and this is what I know, what I know from what I've studied, what I know just about sports, performance and health, and you know psychology in general and this is what I know to work for, you know, the average athlete, and so this is what we're gonna try and if it doesn't work, we'll try something else. But you know. So I guess you know the most difficult part is just now, like I said, like gaining trust.
Speaker 2:And you know, sometimes coaches have been, you know, in this space for a long time and you know it's their quote unquote team, which it is, but you know, letting them, I just always I'm just so grateful when they are open to us being a part of, you know their organization, even though this is my job and what I'm hired for, still it's a large part of relationship building, right, and like relationship building with the coaches, like I said, with the athletic trainers, with the student athletes. So you know they already have a lot placed on them and you know they are themselves under a lot of scrutiny. So you know, to be able to build those relationships, sometimes it can be like geez, like I'm. Like I said, even though I'm hired to do this, that doesn't mean that they automatically are like welcome, come on in to this world, you know. But so, yeah, and just because I am the director over all the athletic, you know over all the sports too.
Speaker 2:That could be difficult at times. Like you know, learning just all the different aspects of all the different sports, and not just like your favorite sport, but like all the sports right, and learning what athlete needs, what is just like and I'm not a, I don't have children, but like I feel like I'm the mom to all these kids, cause I'm a young adult, it's not kids, but because you have to you know identify what works for some, what might not work for others, and you know just having a larger sense of responsibility. That can be tough sometimes, but also, again, rewarding. Like this is I love my job, like I just love it. You know, like you said, I don't know if I'll be here in five or 10 years or whatever, but for right now, I'm not only enjoying it like I actually like what I do, and so I think it's so important to be able to do that and or to be able to say that.
Speaker 2:Yeah that is awesome, yeah, like and a role as a psychologist, you know, and also like a medical doctor too. A lot of times you don't like your patient or your client. They meet. They meet with you once a month, I'm sorry, once a week, maybe once a month, but they meet with you once a week and then they're off and you don't get to see them or interact with them. You know, to know what's going on or just to know, like this is all they, you know you can only go based off what they report to you, but to be able to see, you know our student athletes and their natural, you know worlds and environment. It's so helpful and it's so rewarding and you know again, like when they welcome you into their world and their environment. That's rewarding as well.
Speaker 1:So it's challenging, but it's also rewarding. It's both Well good well, good, I feel like you're cheating my next question because my next question that is fine. It is so good because it's closed very nicely. My next question is what triumphs you've had in your career, what things are you really proud of?
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 2:So I'm really proud. I'm really proud of, like, this role that I have. It's like geez, like I'm actually doing this all right. So that's for awarding. I'm really proud of that. I'm really proud of building the team that I have in my department at Maryland, like they are so so it's two other clinicians that work in the sports psychology department and we're hiring for a fourth.
Speaker 2:So I really enjoy, you know, working. You know you can have this great job or this great role but if you again, if you don't have help or if you don't even like the people that you work with, that's, you know, that kind of adds to when we talked about burnout. So I'm really grateful to be able to, you know, have the team that I work with and my direct supervisor, who's a medical director, dr Rooks like just her trusting me and you know I just have a lot of trust from people that I feel like a high up, like her, and the athletic director and you know a lot of the head coaches you know for them to have you know the trust in me to work with the student athletes. Like I said, this is my job but they still don't. They don't have to say you guys can come in and work with them, you know. So I'm really proud of that. I'm really proud of that and I'm really proud of the organization that we're building and the just how we are able and have been able to be inclusive with, like, the athletic department as well as academics and you know diversity on campus. It's just exciting for me Just to build more building. You know, provide more psychoeducation about.
Speaker 2:You know mental performance and psychology and you know just the basics of what I might think is something basic of you know a small list, like creating a goal and like you know a process goal and what that looks like, and not just having this holding on, having this anxiety to like I want to get to the league, okay, you want to get to the league, but what do you need to do to get there right?
Speaker 2:Like so creating a small things like that that you know. When an athlete texts me, you know something that they remember from what we talked about. This happened last week. One of the athletes texts me something that they saw on social media somewhere and it was something that we actually talked about in our session and I was like, oh, we might know what we're talking about. Huh, like those small things. There's a chance, right, it's a small thing, you know like, but those are things that are rewarding. And even like when athletes say you know, they tell me that, oh, I refer such and such to you and you know that's rewarding, you know. So.
Speaker 1:I love it this is really felt good. So many good things. So many, it's so many, it's so many. I love it. Okay, last question You've already had a ton of great advice, especially about burnout, but I ask everyone if they have any career advice for women maybe, who are early on in their career, still figuring things out, what advice you might just share?
Speaker 2:Um, geez, I would say to not be afraid to ask questions, not be afraid to ask, especially in this world of social media, like you can contact anyone, right, like I remember one time this is so funny I remember one time I like DM'd this was way back like maybe Instagram had just not just started, but I'm not that old Like I had DM'd. I'm really not like I had DM'd. It just seems like a different world you know what I mean than before.
Speaker 2:Yes, it really does Right, like I had DM'd Serena Williams. Even I was like this is like when I was just starting, right, like trying to get myself going and sports I can, like she had said something about psychology or something like that and I had DM'd her. So I'm not saying you have to jump out and do that, but you know, especially if it's someone that's a psychologist or a master's level person trying to get their footing, asking someone or even you know, for medical doctors too, like reaching out or LinkedIn or researching someone in the position that you want, and like reaching out to them and asking them can you shadow them or can they work with you? Or you might not for us, like you might not be able to work with clients or patients, but you know, maybe you can see, like what we're reading, or you know how you work, how we work with clients. So just like reaching out to someone and asking them, like someone in your role, just anything right, like how'd you do that? And then also knowing that the thing that you're doing today might not be what you wanna do in five years.
Speaker 2:So I always am like you know, maybe gain as much knowledge as you can like, generally speaking, so that then maybe in the future you can kinda hone in on what you want your niche to be, because right now you might not know yeah, yeah, and then you know like maybe it's not that you don't wanna do it anymore, whatever it is like, maybe it's that you wanna do something different within that thing. That you wanna do yeah, yeah, and it's okay to pivot right. Like I think we get so stuck on and I don't think I know like we get so stuck on what we want something to look like, that when it doesn't look that way, like especially if you're all a nothing person which is not healthy like being able to pivot, being a little bit flexible.
Speaker 2:Just because it didn't look like how you envisioned, and wrote that thing down in your journal because I'm a journaler and I always suggest journaling but just because it didn't look like how you planned, it doesn't mean that it still can't be great. However, you know it looks in real life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love it. Such good advice, chrissy. I'm so excited that we've connected and that we have gotten to know each other better, and that you came on and shared your career journey on the podcast. I think it's gonna be so inspiring to so many people. So thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you for coming up to me and inviting me. Yeah, inviting me, yeah, because, like you said, you wouldn't have done that three years ago, and probably three years ago I definitely would have been like I don't have anything to say to you or anyone else but yeah, I'm so thankful and I'm excited. This is good. I really I appreciate you and I'm glad this type of podcast is out there for women and for women in the athletic world and sports athletic world. So thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for joining me for another episode of the Mademathic Podcast. Thanks again to Dr Chrissy Hall for sharing her story with us here today. As always, you can find out more about Chrissy in the show notes at mademathletecom. If this or any other episode resonated with you, or if you have a friend who might also enjoy this conversation, consider sharing the episode with them. It's one of the best ways to help new people find the show. While you're there, consider leaving a rating interview with a podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It is a fantastic way to support the show. Thank you for being here. I appreciate you.