074 I Did That, What's Next?

What happens after you hit a major artistic goal? How do you navigate success, and also grapple with what happens next? This week Charlie talks with his former student Guy Lockard, who is currently figuring that out. Guy and Charlie talk about his series regular role as Dr, Dylan Scott on NBC's hit show Chicago Med, and how he is navigating the next chapter. Join them for a fascinating conversation ranging from on set lessons to a real talk about being a Black man in this business. You can follow CBP on Instagram @creatingbehavior, and Charlie's NYC acting conservatory, the Maggie Flanigan Studio @maggieflaniganstudio. Theme music by  https://www.thelawrencetrailer.com. For written transcripts, to leave a voicemail on SpeakPipe, or contact Charlie for private coaching, check out https://www.creatingbehaviorpodcast.com

Transcript

Charlie Sandlan:

So I think that all of you probably have some pretty clear goals in mind as you're pursuing your artistic career. Actors, you've got what? That Broadway job, that big film role, perhaps a series regular on primetime television. Those are the things that you strive for. You bust your ass for those life-changing opportunities. Well, what happens when you get that? When you book that? What happens inside of you creatively, personally?

How do you navigate your life when you've hit, I guess what you would think would be the top of the mountain and then realizing, no, no, no, this isn't the top of the mountain? I'm still just meeting it at its base. Is that right? Well, we're going to talk about that today with my former student Guy Lockard. He did just that. He booked primetime series regular on Chicago Med, 23 episodes and he walked away and we're going to talk about that decision. We're going to talk about what it means to be a black man in this business and what you have to navigate some shit that I had never even thought about. It's a great conversation. Put the phone back in your pocket. Creating Behavior starts now.

Speaker 2:

(Singing).

Charlie Sandlan:

Well, hello my fellow daydreamers. Every once in a while I'll have a conversation here on this podcast that really knocks me for a loop where I've learned something. I mean really learned something. I didn't know that I feel almost stupid for not knowing, particularly as a white man, a 52-year-old white man. Talking to Guy in this conversation, I learned a lot, particularly the struggles of what it means to be a black man in this business and what you can and cannot do.

What you can and cannot show in terms of your humanity, simply because you're black and things I had never even considered before, never even thought of how freely I or any of you who are white, particularly white women, white men who are able to have their anger depending on the scene, depending on the circumstance and to be able to have that rage, no, no, I can't do that. If you're African American, you can show that you're frustrated. You can show that you're irritated, but rage on camera from an African American, nope, never even thought about that. Never even thought about it. We're going to talk about that today and I think one of the things that are really interesting about this conversation with Guy, this is a man who's been grinding out an artistic life since he was 14 years old. Okay.

He gets on this BET show called Teen Summit when he was 14. And what I said to him in this conversation, "You can't teach charisma." So of course he ends up becoming the host of this show. It launches him into a recording contract, which did not work out the way that he thought it would. He reaches what he thinks is the top of the mountain as he calls it, primetime television, series regular. And well, what do you do when you're done with that? What next? What now? And that's a lot of what we talk about. It's a fascinating conversation. I think you're going to learn a lot, and I'm just going to get right to it here at the top of the conversation, we're just talking about that kid at 14. Did you even know that you were going to end up on this artistic life path? And that's where we started off our conversation. Here's Guy Lockard.

Guy Lockard:

I was 14, I had just entered high school and I'm from the DC area and BET back then was based in DC. So I don't know that when I entered that I was thinking of the possibility of a large acting career. I loved acting. I had done a bunch of community theater and stuff in church and singing and all of that. I used to watch the show a lot and I sort of had auditions. So I just went for it. I don't know if I knew I was going to then aggressively pursue a career move in New York. I don't think I knew all that at the time. I was just on there talking about stuff.

Charlie Sandlan:

You ended up getting promoted to host of the show, right?

Guy Lockard:

Co-host. Yeah, they did.

Charlie Sandlan:

I mean, so you were doing something that stuck out. You can't teach charisma.

Guy Lockard:

I must have had some... I was going to say, I think I'm just a ham. Me and the producers, we were in the meetings we would have before shows I was always selling jokes and just being available and not trying to be impressive. But really just digging into it. It was a cool show. We were talking literally about teen issues, teen pregnancy, abortion, HIV, and things like that. And then what was really cool about it, BET had some situation with the different record labels where that is where a lot of labels would come to break their new artist. My claim to fame is I was on the episode where we first saw Destiny's Child on television because we would always have a performance at the end of the show. I believe it was their first television performance at the time and I've seen a lot of that. I mean I have a relationship. I had a relationship with Bad Boy Records and all-

Charlie Sandlan:

Because I know you signed a music contract early on.

Guy Lockard:

I did. I had a production deal that was after high school, which stemmed from being on BET. And they knew, I sang and I remember this one-time Puffy was there with a new artist of some sort. I don't remember who it was and the producers had told him I sing and he came up to me, he was like, "I hear you sing." I was so nervous and he was asking me to sing and I didn't do it. And he was like, "You can't be scared man." Yeah. He was like, "You can't be scared man. You got to take an opportunity. You on TV already. They tell me you sing, I'm asking you to sing." And I was like, "Nah. And I'll never forget.

Charlie Sandlan:

Aw man. Do you look back on that moment and go, "Fuck man, my life could be a little bit different if I had sang."

Guy Lockard:

Listen, man, I definitely do. But I also, I'm super everything in its time and everything I have to in this industry, you just have to lean on that you are where you're supposed to be. But yeah, I think about that-

Charlie Sandlan:

Do you think it had to be one way or the other? Because you have a great voice. You could have gone down a music path just solely do that.

Guy Lockard:

I thought I mean that was what I was focused on initially. Especially when I first moved here to New York. I thought that that's what I was going to do. And in 2014, I had already studied with you by then. And in 2014 though, I had done a couple co-stars and I was singing at weddings and I had recorded a couple things and some commercials and stuff. I went through a big breakup in 2014 and my mother was like, "So what are we going to do? We going to keep singing on the weekends and auditioning when we get auditions." She's like, "I think you need to focus on one for now." She said, "Because you're great at both. But Jack of all trades, master of none."

She was like, "I think people are successful when they laser focus on something, and then it creates other opportunities." And she said, "And I think it should be acting because no offense, you have bigger credits in acting than you do in singing." Which did offend me because remember I did move up here with a record deal and I thought that I used to write, I was in the studio writing for artists in Daddy's House with Diddy. I mean I could name-drop to the nines I wrote in studio with a lot of-

Charlie Sandlan:

Well I would think once you get at 19 you book a sign record contract, you're thinking I'm fucking set.

Guy Lockard:

Yeah, you think but you are far from that. You are so far.

Charlie Sandlan:

What did that teach you about having a big accomplishment like that and it didn't lead to what you wanted? I mean, did you look back on that, and did you take anything from that time?

Guy Lockard:

I think it's all cumulative. Number one, the advance money I got, I mean I was smart enough to know that that wasn't enough money to really... There's more money in one check than I had ever received at the time. But I knew-

Charlie Sandlan:

It's just a taste.

Guy Lockard:

Yeah. And I was like, this ain't going to last. And I had all, again being at BET for so long, I knew the stories of people who spent their advance money and who didn't... So I always knew that that wasn't the top of the mountain in a way. But I really think what sustained me, believe it or not, is just I liked doing this shit and I wanted to do all kinds of stuff.

And never even to this day, people are like, "Where do you want to end up?" I don't think there's a mountaintop. I want to do stuff. You know what I mean? I literally enjoy the process of doing all of this, of songwriting, of singing, of acting, of finding, of being creative. I think that fuels you. It's not enough to get a record deal or to get a big role, you haven't made... I don't feel like, oh I'm done this thing. No, it's like shoot, now what do I have to try to aim for? Because I did this, now I got to do something else and I think you have to be like that. Money can't be the thing.

Charlie Sandlan:

No, I mean if you are in this business to make money, you're not going to make it because you better have passion and you better have an obsession for the art and do it for the art-

Guy Lockard:

You have to.

Charlie Sandlan:

...and the money will come. But that can't be the reason

Guy Lockard:

Even when you get it. I mean look at our, I won't name any names, but look at some of our contemporaries that have all this money and all these damn problems and all of this unrest. You think you make all this money or you have this name. It really just makes your problems bigger if you're not doing the real work on yourself and figuring out who you are, what you want, and what your contribution is supposed to be while you're here.

Charlie Sandlan:

Well, I mean do you look at success now differently now that you are? I mean I think you're always a struggling actor to a point. But I mean you just came off of 23 episodes of a primetime television showman. That's what everybody dreams about.

Guy Lockard:

That's what everybody dreams about. I won't lie, the money's great and all the things that come along with it are really cool but you're only as good as the last thing you did. I know I'm not in it to impress anyone or to get the hand clap for it. I did that. What's next? I never want to coast and I didn't move to New York and struggle waiting tables a hundred hours a week and trying to figure out a way to pay to afford Maggie Flanigan Studio and am like yeah, all the things. You know what I mean? But for real, all the things. I didn't do that to coast through some episodic television show. And I'm not saying that I was coasting there, but I mean wherever I end up anything. And of course, there are some projects that are more challenging or less challenging than others, but I want to have fun.

I want to say something. I want to do stuff and that has to be the thing that drives you. Because even if you do get a billion dollars, what are you going to do? You can only spend so much money. Yeah. It just gets really boring and really unfulfilling really quickly. And I learned that in one season and having a lot of the things I thought I wanted, I was like, thank God I learned that lesson quickly because I was like, well what are we going to do next season? It's part of the reason I walked away the way I did.

I don't know if that is going to fulfill me and you're right, it's 23 episodes minimum. They usually add more but because of pandemic and stuff but they told me be prepared for more. That's 10 months of filming. There are 12 months in a year. So you have no time to do anything else and so you better love it. Once you've had a taste of success, you start being like, well damn this isn't as fulfilling as I thought. I still have all these questions and all these things I think I want to do. I thought this would solve all of that or check all the boxes and you realize that there are so many more boxes.

Charlie Sandlan:

What do you mean by that? You thought you'd be more fulfilled than you were?

Guy Lockard:

I did. And I don't mean that project. I don't mean Chicago Med, right? I mean it could have been anything. I just thought after the kind of excitement about reaching that mountaintop wears off, which happens really quickly because any job you dive into the work, particularly anyone who does this knows television is brutal. It's 12-hour days back to back. It's 4:00 AM calls. They make it as comfortable as they can, but it's not really because you're a star, it's because they just don't want you to leave the set. Yeah. They'll bring you something to eat so that they know where you are. They stand outside of the bathroom for you-

Charlie Sandlan:

When it's ready, when you're ready to go.

Guy Lockard:

Got to go, got to go every second of overtime is hundreds of thousands of dollars. You know what I'm saying?

Charlie Sandlan:

That's what I tell my students is when they show up and they don't have their lines down and I've given them a week. It's like when you're first starting to try to memorize something you think you know and then they show up and they don't know their lines. I say "Listen, you have no idea what the pressure you're going to feel like when you're on a $200,000 set and they've got three hours as the daylight or whatever it is." There's no time for bullshit.

Guy Lockard:

 It is literally one of the most unprofessional things you could ever do. And it's one of those things nobody even talks about knowing your lines because it's just like... And I've been in situations where actors, guest stars or weren't solid on the lines and-

Charlie Sandlan:

What happens in those situations?

Guy Lockard:

TV is different maybe than a film. I feel like in film you don't have a lot of time either. But I feel like you could be recast a lot quicker in a film and they can make space to refilm that scene than in TV. In TV nine and a half out of 10, we got to go with it. So we have to either do something else while you work on that or tape your lines up behind camera. Which by the way a lot of people do. Nobody cares about that. Do what you got to do, but you won't be getting called again. You know what I'm saying? And your agent will hear about it and you won't be treated very kindly and it's not the reputation you want on a set.

Charlie Sandlan:

And then once you start going down that rabbit hole of fucking up your lines and you hear cut and it's because of you, there's not a hole deep enough to climb into.

Guy Lockard:

And you think you did good because you got two takes and they turned around. No, they're just done with you. Your guest start is just going to cut away from you and maybe they'll bring you in to loop it, which is... What is the real term? ADR later, after a month after you now know the line, because you're in a studio looping it but your face isn't on the camera. They cut away to one of the series regulars and your voice is throwing those handful of lines you were supposed to know a month ago. You can't use that on your reel, you know what I mean? You got paid for it but that's the only check you'll get and the casting director's going to know and they will not be calling you sir.

Charlie Sandlan:

Have you ever seen anybody get fired on set or just-

Guy Lockard:

In the middle? I've heard about it. I've never seen it. I've heard about it. I heard this one comedy that I was up for a while ago. A sitcom that didn't go to series, they were hurriedly trying to replace this guy because I guess he had a stellar tape but then he got to the table and he just wasn't funny. Maybe he coached the hell out of it and then got to the table and he's a one-trick kind of pony. Didn't come-

Charlie Sandlan:

That's what happens a lot of time these auditions, you get heavily coached and you package a nice self-tape together and you can do that-

Guy Lockard:

You get these line, you know get Charlie saying... Charlie doesn't do this, he wasn't there. But you get somebody to read the line to literally give you the tone and the delivery and you do it on tape and you practice that. But then you get there and "They're like cool. The script has changed." Which happens nine and a half out of 10 times and they expect you to have 35,000 different ideas about it in different takes. And you won't know which one they pick until it airs. Even series regulars. It's not like we get to be like, "Oh can you make sure they pick take three? Because I like that one." That's not how it works.

Charlie Sandlan:

Yeah, it's out of your control.

Guy Lockard:

So you just have to be ready and all of them have to be dialed in. You want them to have take after take. You want them to be free to use all, to have a choice so that you look... That's what makes you a collaborator.

Charlie Sandlan:

Well, making choices is everything.

Guy Lockard:

Everything.

Charlie Sandlan:

And having ideas and then committing to them. But most actors don't, they just have conversational reality and it's about all they can do.

Guy Lockard:

Well everybody wants to be like Brad Pitt. I can't tell you how many times I've even on set, not even just in rehearsal or in school, but literally on these multimillion-dollar sets, you booked this guest star or even series regulars and it's like, I don't even know how you got here. They literally just, they have nothing. They're empty. They decided to dim their voice into sound like this. And that's the choice.

Charlie Sandlan:

The Kiefer Sutherland School of Acting. I'm going to whisper.

Guy Lockard:

Going to dim my eyes and I'm going to turn on this word and really stick it and it doesn't work. Not with a mother fucker like me because and I'm not bragging at all. I'm just saying, I come from you. I want to play. I want to create a world-

Charlie Sandlan:

Well, let's work off each other. Let's-

Guy Lockard:

It's fun.

Charlie Sandlan:

...off each other and yeah.

Guy Lockard:

I don't want to see you masturbate on camera and the audience doesn't want to see it. Nobody watches that.

Charlie Sandlan:

Well so talk about what this technique and what your training and going through all of this, what's it done for you?

Guy Lockard:

I was told by another teacher a long time ago that also taught Meisner. I was surprised she said it because you would think that you're paying me to teach you, Meisner. So my job is to tell you it's the only way. But she was very honest and said "This is one approach, one very solid approach that I believe in. But your job is to be a thief of all approaches and ultimately to really create your own approach because everyone is individual. That's what makes us all artists." I'm not-

Charlie Sandlan:

Make it your own.

Guy Lockard:

You got to make it your own and figure out how to get where you need to get and how to crack it open. So I think what I learned, and this is not an advertisement for Maggie Flanigan Studio, but I went there back when Maggie was still in the room and you were as well. I thank God for that time together because I just learned how to really prepare, how to really what are the given circumstances, what happened before, what got us here because just like in real life, why am I talking as Charlie on a damn podcast? You know what I'm saying? How did I get here? And that informs everything about everything because otherwise we just emerged in a scene-

Charlie Sandlan:

They have no idea, if you don't know why you're in the scene, you're completely fucked. I mean that's just fundamental-

Guy Lockard:

It's fundamental. But so many people, Charlie, you say that it's fundamental, but you and I both know nobody does it. It's passé to give actors notes on set. So I don't, but being a big-hearted person that I am, when I see somebody struggling and I know what's up because I know they about to turn around, they about to get you out of here and you're not going to use this on your reel.

I know it's your first guest star and you trying to get a better agent or you trying to use it and you have a really good couple scenes this episode, but this is your first one of the episode, and if this don't go well, the rest of this shoot they turning around on you brother. They don't have time for you to figure it out. They just literally don't. So I'll sneak, I won't call it a note, but I like to ask questions just to help people if they're cool, you bond with people. There was this one guy, he was really cool and I could tell he was kind of stuck in his vision of what he thought the scene ought to be. But he gets to set and it's not working or we already got that one, we need another one because I'm going to give you something different every take because I'm going to try-

Charlie Sandlan:

That's what an actor does man.

Guy Lockard:

Yeah. I just want it to be otherwise why are we doing, it's not a voiceover. So I told him, I was like, "Bro..." Maybe there was another actor saying something. I was like, "Did you hear what he said?" Because by that point we had a rapport, me and the guy. "Yeah, yeah. I heard him" and I was like, "No, no, no. Did you hear what he said though? I'm not trying to be your coach or nothing, but I'm just curious. He just said this and I just feel like if he said that to me and I had your circumstance and I had that big gun that's in your pocket, I would shoot him. But that's not in the script so you can't shoot him."

Charlie Sandlan:

Right. But you can have a point of view about it. You can respond to it in the moment.

Guy Lockard:

I was like, "I just want to know how you feel. I'm just curious again," being stepping lightly because it's unprofessional kind of. And I don't know if you probably tell people this in class, you're not supposed to give other actors notes. You're not the director, you're not the producer.

Charlie Sandlan:

Of course, it's taboo.

Guy Lockard:

It is. But for me, if anything in life, me and Charlie are cool, Charlie could probably say something to me that he may not be able to say to another student. You know when you have a little license to be like, "Hey man, I just want you to feel something about what he just said to you. I think it'll help you a lot-"

Charlie Sandlan:

See when you're talking about it's listening. You're just talking about being able to fucking listen.

Guy Lockard:

God Charlie. I was just helping my friend yesterday, she just started auditioning for series regulars. She's like, "What's the difference?" It is very different. I feel like you hold the weight of the narrative. Guest stars are the earrings and co-stars are the mascara and all of that. But you are the human-

Charlie Sandlan:

I like that analogy.

Guy Lockard:

Yeah. And earrings don't work if there's not an ear to put them on. You're the ear, you're the lips for the lipstick, you're the body for the dress or the suit and that's a big responsibility. So you have to have a very clear point of view, not only about the episode or the scene but about the character. That's why character bible, I was blessed I think on Chicago Med to have writers that were collaborative and they loved me. But I could call Eli or Meredith or Diane or Andy executive producers and be like, "I think Dylan is this or this is happening and I noticed this. Are we going down this road because I wonder about this thing that happened and how that connect?" I do know that I was able to inform a lot of the trajectory and that's really what I think people want to an extent.

There are definitely writers who, this is what I wrote, this is what you need to say. But I think ultimately, and I feel like you've said this in class, come in as a collaborator. Come in with a perspective, an idea, understand the room and the audience, and have an idea. They may not use it and they may not even give you space to say it, but it'll come through in your work. Give them a hint of where this shit could possibly go. You know what I'm saying? Or it could go over here or it could go over here and inspire people. Be a collaborator. And again, I don't want to sound like it's not a pat on the back, but I do feel like I had a great season on the show. And part of that was that I always tried to do that. I always tried to serve the script, serve the text in the moment, but then give a way of, oh wow, based on the way he did that thing, maybe there is more of a relationship over here or maybe there is a storyline.

You know what I mean? And try to inspire ideas. So because it's a creative medium, we inspire each other as collaborators in a way and they would write things that would, oh boom, lightning bolt. It would pop something in me and then it's fun and it doesn't feel like work. It doesn't feel like you constantly auditioning. I feel like some serious regulars feel like they're fighting for their job every episode or every season. Not necessarily on my show, I mean in general, but it's like just listen and respond. But a lot of us are in therapy still trying to learn how to do that in real life, let alone on set.

Charlie Sandlan:

Well, I'm curious, how many series regular auditions do you think you had, guest stars, auditions before you booked Chicago Med?

Guy Lockard:

I couldn't tell you Charlie. I mean lots again-

Charlie Sandlan:

Because there were so many?

Guy Lockard:

There's just so many. And so before I booked this show, I had received two other test offers, which most shows you have to screen test before you become a series regular. And it's usually down to you and one other person, maybe two other people at that point. But before you screen test you have to negotiate all your terms and then they pick the person. Two times it wasn't me and then it was with Chicago Med. I did not screen test for Chicago Med though. Took me off the self-tape. What happened with that show? I had done a very pivotal popular episode of Chicago Fire right before the pandemic happened. And it aired during the pandemic, during the George Floyd protests and all of that. And it was in the vein of all of that. So it was kind of kismet, no one could have anticipated that those protests and that uprising would happen after we wrote this episode that is very similar in a lot of ways.

I was the main guest star, I was the person that they tied me to two fire trucks because they had closed down the fire station in my neighborhood, which is a predominantly black neighborhood in Chicago. So my whole arc, I was a community leader and I was saying it now will take people 15 more minutes to get to the nearest hospital or for the nearest firetruck to come if we have issues in our black community. So we protested to get them to reopen it and it was very powerful episode. And the director of that episode became over the pandemic, became an exec producer on Chicago Med. So when she saw my tape, she said-

Charlie Sandlan:

Relationships, relationships.

Guy Lockard:

That's why you got to know your lines. You better show up on time. You better have choices and you better make because that's what it is. It's nothing but relationships.

Charlie Sandlan:

So she knew you from Chicago Fire?

Guy Lockard:

She directed me on that-

Charlie Sandlan:

This guy's a fucking pro. This guy's a fucking pro.

Guy Lockard:

That's it.

Charlie Sandlan:

Boom.

Guy Lockard:

It's him and she said, "It's him." And they hired me and they remember. The franchise is obviously everybody knows everybody. So they saw the Chicago Fire and it ended up being obviously a very big episode because of the timing and because I think we all did a good job. She's a phenomenal director. Nicole Rubio is one of the best directors. She leaves no crumbs on the table. I've learned so much from her and we're good friends now. I thought she hated me while I was filming Chicago Fire because she never spoke to me. But I learned later her style, she just left me alone because it was an intense, intense role to be. You're protesting and you're upset and also I had to be stretched out between two firetrucks the entire shoot. And I'm screaming at politicians and then I think at the time they said it was the most extras they had ever had in an episode. They had a hundred extras piling in with some... We were going at it.

Charlie Sandlan:

Man, what was that like to live through? What a great thing as an actor. What a juicy part.

Guy Lockard:

It was juicy. It hurt but it was supposed to, if you're living truthfully and you're in it, that shit hurt because I can relate to, I'm a big black man, I know what's up. And it was well written and then the actors on that show are phenomenal. Shout out to Eamonn Walker and all of those guys. Man, we were dialed in. You said it one time, I remember you were like, "We teach you how to do this because everything else is easier." If you can do this theater work, TV. Not to say TV or movies don't have their challenges, but nothing's like being-

Charlie Sandlan:

No, but a lot of acting in TV and film doesn't require much. Sometimes you don't even have a rich emotional life. You just got to have point of view actions, objective, and-

Guy Lockard:

Know where your light is.

Charlie Sandlan:

Am I going to... Yeah. And hit your mark. And you start asking yourself, "When do I get to live through something?"

Guy Lockard:

It's really hard to live through something because we have to get these angles and so we have to capture it. So it's hard to have the full moment because we're cutting and we're pushing in to get the close up in this cool thing and getting your eye light and your thing. But on stage, it's you and that light. You don't get to cut away and you don't get to take it again. You're living in front of people and if you can do that honestly you can do anything.

Charlie Sandlan:

I want to pick up on something you said because I'm curious about your thoughts about this talking about being a big black guy and I'm wondering if you had this experience when you started training and started getting comfortable having and expressing your anger. But a lot of work that I do, certainly with people of color is how difficult it is for them to express their anger, to have their anger, to be fully and freely alive because they've spent their whole life being told that that's going to get you killed and-

Guy Lockard:

Yep. It's been difficult. Charlie, my parents are both retired police officers, and my mom, I would say from the view of the black community, I would say maybe they would look at her as someone who raised me a little more in a modern way than other black moms. My mom knew the dangers out there because she's faced them every day. I had the police officer talk before any of my friends. I knew what was up. But it also allotted me in some ways more freedom than my friends because I had a later curfew because she was Captain Lockard. She knew where I was at all times.

I had a little more freedom I think than a lot of my friends because she wasn't as scared because she knew what was actually out there. That said, as I've grown and particularly in acting, a good friend of mine when I was really starting to dig into auditioning for guest stars and series regulars and when we would work she would say, "For better or for worse, you have to play frustrated, not angry." And it sucks because you would love to have this rich emotional life that white guy over there or that white girl over there gets to have. They just get to have all those colors but even I know what the script says and I know how far you should be allowed to take it. But if you want to work, you have to learn how to play frustrated and make it compelling and make it all the things and so that's-

Charlie Sandlan:

I've never heard that before.

Guy Lockard:

Yeah, that's what I do. I'm being honest. You've never seen me angry on camera. You've seen me severely frustrated. I dimmed my eyes and it takes rehearsal. Because again, if you want to be truthful, I can't be thinking about dimming my eyes and being aware of my tone. So you have to practice it enough where it comes out, it flows. So now even when I'm preparing a script and I see how angry I ought to be, I know that won't play well at six foot four almost, and very dark-skinned as I am. And that I know a lot of people don't want to hear that I know it makes people uncomfortable. But you put me on here to tell you the truth, that is what I play. I play frustrated and it works.

Charlie Sandlan:

What are the repercussions of going the other way and say, "You know what? I'm supposed to be fucking lit the fuck up here and that's how I'm going to play this. Because that's the truth."

Guy Lockard:

Going to get a note. Going to get a note from the director-

Charlie Sandlan:

Producers and...

Guy Lockard:

If you're live on set and you're doing, "Hey, that's so beautiful. Can we have one more take? Just-"

Charlie Sandlan:

Tone it down.

Guy Lockard:

Well, they're not going to say it like that, you know what I mean? But it's like one more take where you just, damn man. I'm like, well someone just killed my mother-

Charlie Sandlan:

Doesn't that piss you off though? Do you say, "Listen, that's bullshit," or internally do you go roll your eyes?

Guy Lockard:

If I let this shit piss me off, man my life would be a life of being pissed off. But on most television and movies, if you want to work, only Denzel gets to do that to soliloquy at the end of training day where he go, "You ain't seen a lot of that."

Charlie Sandlan:

You know what I mean? Maybe this is my own, just my white privilege of not understanding that. But that's the first time I've heard that experience and I guess what you're saying to me is that's just across the board when it comes to African American men and what they're allowed to do on camera.

Guy Lockard:

It terrifies people. Charlie, it terrifies people. I did. I was just telling my mom today, I did Chicago: The Musical in Chicago in 2017. I played Billy Flynn. I think he's such a good part and people, it's so easy to just slide through him, but there's so much stuff. I had stuff, man, you know me, I had stuff and the director at the time, this is also when I learned to advocate for myself. We were doing it at a theater that's right outside of Chicago and it was a very Catholic white place. I know people will listen to this podcast and I'm not saying anything disrespectful, it's just the truth. He wanted me to be very aggressive... During rehearsal process. There was a moment where he wanted me to really be aggressive with Roxy. You got to tell her you got to grab her.

And I was like, "I don't think that'll play so well." So he was adamant about it at the time and I did it in a preview. I think we were in previews still and I did it and the audible shriek from the audience from stage, the entire company heard it. I came backstage and he was in tears and he apologized to me profusely, "We've separated you from the audience, we've separated you. I'm so sorry." And I was so angry with myself. I get it. He had a vision and at the time, I don't know his life or who he interacted with, but he was clearly not as aware kind of what you just said. He wasn't as aware of that-

Charlie Sandlan:

Was he a white guy?

Guy Lockard:

Of course, he was. Yeah. No offense but a black director would've never, or any other director of any other color, to be honest, would've never asked me to do that. She was very short and frail and blonde and I tower over her naturally and I'm grabbing her. So we had to rework it, which is what I was trying to do in the first place. And I was also just like, "Why would Billy ever get that mad anyway? That mad. He don't got to do that. He never has to do that." He can have layers. I felt like Billy because my whole thing was Billy's black. So when he is talking to Roxy, he's telling her whatever but when he is in the courtroom and he talks... I had it all. And Billy, my backstory, I said, Billy's from the hood from the South side of Chicago, he got vouchers and went to private school and he learned how to hustle.

Because his father was a big drug kingpin. So he's clever and slick and he went to the best schools, they shipped him to a boarding school and he's been clever and slicked his way to Harvard or whatever big law school he went to and became this thing. I had a whole thing and he didn't understand the need for me to have that because to him it's like, "So what you're black? Your Billy dazzle them and do the..." I was like, "Man, you going to put my ass on stage." He has a line that calls him a mick lawyer. Mick is an Irish derogatory-

Charlie Sandlan:

Irish derogatory term. Yeah.

Guy Lockard:

And because look, they going to think I'm trying to get them to take your class because Charlie Sandlan taught me to listen and respond. I'm just going to act like he ain't just, I used to look out, I used to break the wall and look out into the audience. What do you call me?

Charlie Sandlan:

Yeah, I'm sorry. You don't even know the right racist terms to use.

Guy Lockard:

Didn't want me to do it I was like, this is not-

Charlie Sandlan:

What did he want you to do? Just ignore it or not even-

Guy Lockard:

Just not even acknowledge it. No-

Charlie Sandlan:

That's crazy.

Guy Lockard:

I was like, it's so good though. There's so much stuff we can do. And I've always wanted to play. I still had a good time. I found my show and that's the thing I got back. I learned how to take agency, how to collaborate professionally. But say I am the lead actor of this show. Can we talk about that? Maybe not in rehearsal. Can I call you later? Especially when it comes to things that I know you don't understand like being a big black dude in this very white town and being aggressive under the lights. I need to give you a quick little history lesson of how terrible that's going to look. But we got the lesson. I got terrible reviews but I learned my lesson and I took my show back and it happened to me again. Never again.

Charlie Sandlan:

Are you cognizant or selective now about the kind of roles that you'll take because of the fact that you're a person of color?

Guy Lockard:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Charlie Sandlan:

I'm not going to go out on a fucking pimp role or some drug dealer or some-

Guy Lockard:

I don't play unredeemable characters. I don't play unredeemable characters. It doesn't serve me. Now talk to me in a couple years if I need a check, we'll see. You know what I'm saying? I mean maybe. But I do make a point and my agent, I love my team. Shout out to Danielle DeLauder, Anthony Calamita, and Ryan LeVine. I think that they know by now this stuff they don't even send me. I think there's space for strip clubs and drug dealers and thugs and all of that stuff. I don't think I have to play a lot of them unless they're interesting. Again, redeemable unless they're layered. If it's something, but I don't-

Charlie Sandlan:

If it's Omar. If it's Omar, yeah. Okay.

Guy Lockard:

Omar, right. I mean Jesus.

Charlie Sandlan:

You know what I mean? Talk about character man.

Guy Lockard:

God rest his soul man.

Charlie Sandlan:

I think it was one of the best characters ever put on television.

Guy Lockard:

Absolutely. I used to be a bartender at the Mercer Kitchen and celebrity hotspot and I was doing it while I was working, while I was in class with you. And he came in one day and they tried to play him because a lot of them didn't recognize him and I came from behind that bar like, "That is Michael K. Williams. He sits upstairs."

Charlie Sandlan:

How long were you pursuing your career before you had to stop survival jobs like bartending, waiting tables? How long were you at that? Because all my students, you know what this is like you get out of school and you're like, "Fuck now what? I got to start my career. I got to survive and pay my bills. Will this ever end? Will I ever stop waiting tables?"

Guy Lockard:

Right. Hard to directly answer that question because I was also a band leader for a very, very bougie top-level wedding or event company here in New York, element music and I had one of the premier bands in New York City. So we got to a point where we were doing well enough where I didn't have to bartend anymore. But I loved every Saturday. I mean I would have a meeting or two-

Charlie Sandlan:

See I wouldn't look at that as a survival job. I'm doing what I love because I'm good at this and I'm not in a restaurant.

Guy Lockard:

Making six figures, singing my off in private islands in the Philippines with Donatella Versace. It was that. So if that aside, I guess my last bartending, whatever survival gig if it was 2000 sometime in 2016 or '17, I think. You know what I tell people all the time because everybody's always asking how does survival thing, how do you do it? Never do things you don't love. Find stuff you love. And I know that sounds very vague, right? Yes. You will have to wait tables for a little while at a restaurant you might not like or whatever. But maybe you can find one you do like or maybe you can... I sing. So I was lucky enough, I got a lot of friends that want to be actors that are aspiring actors and singers professionally that scoff at doing weddings and oh it's corny.

I'm like, "My shit wasn't corny." I'm a record executive. I'm friends with celebrities that I met at these gigs. I used to perform, I used to try shit out on stage. I'm a baritone but baritones at the time. You got to be a tenor if you want to work. So guess who had to learn that mixed voice and practice it every week in front with lights? Where else do you get to get paid to rehearse? That's how I used to look at it. I'm getting paid to work to try and even acting Imma do this song like it's musical theater. I would literally put storylines in my head and really perform and which is why I elevated a lot in that industry because the people ate it up. They were like we getting the damn Broadway level or-

Charlie Sandlan:

Broadway caliber.

Guy Lockard:

Yeah. Or a recording... He's Luther or whatever or Usher or whoever. And I would just sing it down and really give it, deliver performances, and try stuff. Some stuff worked, some stuff didn't. I knew it would all be good because it's better than what they could do because they can't sing. You know what I mean? And it built my confidence. It really did. It built my presence. But it translates to camera, it translates to stage the theater because of the confidence, because of the curiosity, telling stories. What is this moment? Paying attention, listening, responding, and then yet the whole week free to go to school to audition. I ain't got to do nothing Monday through Sunday. Maybe I got to get on a zoom with a couple. Come on man. But people, oh because everybody thinks they're better than being a wedding singer. I was like, I've never been a wedding singer day in my damn life. I was an artist. I was a big giving concerts. You understand? But if you think you're a wedding singer then I get why you hate it.

Charlie Sandlan:

But that's a mindset. Yeah, that's interesting. It's a mindset. It's how you flip that switch and the way you look at it. But also you're an artist so it's not just a job, you're doing that. You're miserable about this you're an artist.

Guy Lockard:

You're an artist. I ask people all the time when they ask me for advice, well do you want to be an actor or do you want to be famous? I have to know before I give you because they are two very different things and I'm not judging either one of them, but before I give you an answer to whatever you're asking me if I don't know who they are already, I'm like, and if you don't know the answer, everybody says they want to be an actor.

But then I ask other questions because for me, do you love it or okay, you're not booking, are you and your friends writing anything? Don't be the one that's waiting around for an audition and waiting for people to tell you what kind of career you're going to have. I have to write and produce some things because I know the kind of things I want to really do. And Dylan, that character is definitely one of them. I love what it did. I love being in the lexicon of black doctors on network television next to the all the others and I love being a part of that, right? But you got to create, just like in life, you got to show people who you are.

Charlie Sandlan:

I can't let you get off here without asking you what it was like to work with Jay-Z and that Smile video because it's a great album first off, it's an incredible video. If any of you guys have not watched it yet, just watch it. It's like an eight, nine-minute movie to this song and you play a nice part there.

Guy Lockard:

Shout out to Dominique Fishback who is killing it.

Charlie Sandlan:

Oh my god, what a fucking actress man.

Guy Lockard:

Man, that's my baby.

Charlie Sandlan:

Jesus and the Black Messiah. She was fucking... That was some of the most vulnerable acting I have seen.

Guy Lockard:

She does not fuck around.

Charlie Sandlan:

She was incredible.

Guy Lockard:

She does not fuck around. She is a good friend. That's my sister. I love you Dominique and I'm so proud of you. I met her on that shoot. But working on a project was incredible with Miles J who directed it and we filmed it in his childhood apartment in Marcy Projects. The people who currently live there in the unit he grew up in, they put them in a hotel for a week or whatever so we could film and it was cool because again, it was a music video but it had some narrative to it and Dominique and I played off each other. We really did it and it wasn't this script, you know what I mean?

Charlie Sandlan:

Right there's no dialogue. It's just all behavior.

Guy Lockard:

But we really just we would create dialogue. Of course, the song is over it. But her and I would just live, she's clearly the star of the video and she demolished it. She killed it. I'm going to tell you, I ain't going to lie. Sometimes I watch it and some of the way they captured this, it's so epic. And I'm like, I can't believe I did that shit. It is so cool.

Charlie Sandlan:

I love you had a moment at the kitchen table where you've got a rocks glass and you're just doing something to the rock glass with your fingers.

Guy Lockard:

I had just found out-

Charlie Sandlan:

It just said so much about what's going on inside of you. It was just such a nice subtle piece of behavior. But it said so much.

Guy Lockard:

Behavior, behavior, behavior, behavior. I think what had happened, either my brother or my mother had just died. I found out something like that in that scene. I noticing you talking about and again thinking, going back to behavior and what I've learned, you got to create a world. It's not enough to just know that there's this smokey light on you and you're going to push in on you slow and you just have to look really cool. He didn't tell me to throw that glass.

I don't even know if they gave me the glass. I think I grabbed it, you know what I'm saying? And the cigarette. I just went, I allowed my mind and my spirit and all of that to just go to wherever it went in that moment and just sat in it and let them capture it. I mean there was a couple takes where I was hysterical and I knew they wouldn't use those. But you go all the way and then as you know it come and then they find the one. And it's all truth because you just allow yourself, you give yourself over to the story. This is what happened and this is how I feel about it and you just sit.

Charlie Sandlan:

Incredible, man. This is such good stuff.

Guy Lockard:

Thank you man.

Charlie Sandlan:

Listen, we'll get out of here now. I want to thank you for coming on man. I could talk to you for another hour.

Guy Lockard:

Listen Charlie.

Charlie Sandlan:

So I appreciate this really.

Guy Lockard:

I appreciate you, man. Don't edit this out. I want to give you your flowers. You took me on when I was going through a situation, another situation and you brought me in and trusted me. I did not start day one with you, but I had to make a move and I came and you trusted me. You gave me a shot and the way that you taught us in class, I'll never forget. I said this to you before, it was not only nurturing and I felt so safe and I felt so safe to explore. You left no crumbs on the table. You ain't let us get away with nothing and it was just so cool to be challenged like that and to feel so safe to try. It was the first time I think in my acting journey that I had been in an environment like that where not only was I definitely being pushed and challenged, but was given the space to try to mess up, to fail, and to just create.

I love you for that brother and I thank you and I'm so glad that people like you are here. When I came to the studio the last time, the other day, and I could just see the students, they look so free. Like I told you, I said Charlie, I hadn't been there in years and I said, "Man, you still creating that environment. They just look free." And it's so important, especially when you're learning the work because you're really digging up all this stuff that you've been taught to suppress. How do you feel about everything? In the beginning of Meisner], you might have nightmares you might break up with your girlfriend or something because you're going to be digging up. We're taught to block things out because you have to live your life. But as an actor, you have to take it all in and you need an environment. We can do that and so I thank God that you create that and you are a special human to me man and thank you.

Charlie Sandlan:

I appreciate that, man. Thank you. And you know what, we're going to fade the music up here in a second, but why don't you take us out with some advice that you like to offer to everybody that's out there that might be maybe a little dispirited, might be thinking of it's not for me. It's hard. It's not panning out the way I want. Given where you're at now in your journey, what would you like to say?

Guy Lockard:

You have to love it. It can't be attached to a specific outcome. I said recently when I knew it was time to leave a show that I had only been on for a season, my biggest break, I told my therapist because I took a risk and I said, "I thought when I got the show, the call that I got the show in July 2021 that I had reached the mountaintop. But I realized that I had only just met the mountain that I had to climb. This whole time I've been walking through the field thinking I was climbing the mountain, but really I had just met it." The pressure was insurmountable and I faced it and I had a great time and I'm climbing. But what I'd learned is if you're doing it for fame, if you're doing it for recognition or to be this star or this thing that you think you're supposed to be, find something else. Love it.

Charlie Sandlan:

Well, my fellow daydreamers, thank you for staying around and keeping that phone in your pocket. Please subscribe and follow the show wherever you get your podcasts shared with your friends. If you got a few seconds, please go to iTunes, write me a written review. I haven't had one in months, it'd be fucking great. You can go to https://www.creatingbehaviorpodcast.com  Go to the contact page, hit that red button. I use SpeakPipe. All you got to do is hit that button, leave me a message, share with me some of your thoughts, ask me a few questions. You can go to https://www.maggieflaniganstudio.com if you are interested in coming to New York City and training with me in my New York City classroom. My next class begins January 5th. You can follow me on Instagram @maggieflaniganstudio @creatingbehavior. Lawrence Trailer thank you for the music, my man. My friends, you do it for the love. All right, you play full out with yourself and don't ever settle for your second best. My name is Charlie Sandlan. Peace.

Speaker 2:

(Singing).