Hello and welcome to Snyder’s return a tabletop roleplay podcast. My guest today asked us to join them by the fire. It's embers burning crimson and ash to share tales of gritty heroism, transformation and sanity testing adventures. But before we settled down for our longest rest, we must account for our group ensuring that no one is missing. Because once we have had our salty sweet Phil, we need to be safe safe with ourselves and those we have journeyed with what once burned a bright, like a neon city may now just have masked the way down below. So, as my body crumbles, I will use my last dying breath to welcome TTRPG content creator, writer streamer podcaster and TTRPG Safety Toolkit curator, Kienna shore Kienna. Welcome to the show.
Kienna Shaw:Thanks for having me. What a What an awesome introduction.
Snyder’s Return:Thank you. But well, before we get to the things I've sort of alluded to there in the introduction. Could you tell us a little bit more about yourself and how you got into tabletop role playing games, please?
Kienna Shaw:Yes, so as mentioned, I am aware of many hats in the TTRPG space. But I did eventually get into it because of streaming. I am part of that generation of of TTRPG players and creators who was introduced to the hobby because of actual plays that existed out there. So you know, I was in my first year of university, I was kind of feeling a little lost and unmoored. Especially as a creative person. Just kind of living away from home for the first time, not able to do any of my hobbies. I was just kind of not sure what to do with myself. And then I, one of the content creators that I followed at the time was like, hey, so I'm going to be playing Dungeons and Dragons on a stream. Come follow me over there. I was like, What's tension and dragons heard of that before? And so I did, and I went over to watch over on the witch of the coast channel, and I fell in love with it. And I was like, Oh, this is what I was looking for this kind of collaborative like play, and storytelling, like this is what I want in my life. And so I went in headfirst and, and went, Oh, this is I'm just gonna start going into the online community. I started looking at what people other people doing, credit a Twitter account. And, you know, eventually I made my way into watching other channels and getting involved in in other channels. And just go from there. It's been an unconventional path. But it's been a it's been a fun one.
Snyder’s Return:Well, what more can you say to that, except I have that that one small, unconventional path has has spiralled into so many different projects. So when did we'll come back to community because that's quite important thing for what you're working on the moment and everything else that sort of built up around what you've done so far. But where did you know following across to, to learn about d&d and then take part in these games? Where did that turn into you as a almost full time content creator with SOTC games? Where did that sort of Genesis come from?
Kienna Shaw:Yeah, so for the first couple of years that I was in the space, I was pretty exclusively doing actual plays and actual plays on other people's channels. And I would often also on the back end, so I wasn't just, you know, a performer, but I was also doing, you know, community management. And there's also like, you know, handling the discord and the 20 accounts, were making graphics for the shows, or, you know, any of these other elements of learning a channel. And unfortunately, a lot of those places ended up being toxic or abusive, and they, you know, fell apart for good reasons. And it came to a point where me and my friend Lauren, Lauren Irwin, who had been with me for most of my actual play, career and shared many of these communities with me, we looked each other went well. We love be able to play games with our friends, we love be able to do performance. We're both you know, theatre, theatre nerds and this was a great way for us to express that. I went you know what, like, let's let's try something let's try something ourselves because we've we've All these skills, we were doing half of the work anyways, for all these other places, like we could put our heads together and make our own space, a space that, you know, we could feel safe in, and that we could just, you know, enjoy performing and putting on great actual plays. So that's where, you know, we started really delving into salty, sweet games and, and creating our own content there. But in terms of all the other stuff I've done, it's mostly just been looking at the community and seeing what amazing stuff had been out there. It's the actual queer community that introduced me to safety tools. And that's what I was like, Oh, well, like Why have I never heard about this before? Why have other people not heard about this before, and filling out that need by creating a resource. And, you know, it's also the community that pushed me towards, eventually going into doing design of any work. You know, seeing what amazing people have done in the indie space, especially on HBO, the encouragement that I got when I started with a game jam happening that seemed to interest me. And, you know, being able to dive into that and have, again, you know, people around me be able to encourage that. So we all kind of going back into the space and the people that I found as friends and as a network and as a as a support group out there.
Snyder’s Return:Well, speaking of finding people and resources, just before we move on to some sort of delving a little bit deeper into a few of those points, where can we find you and everything you're associated with, please?
Kienna Shaw:Yeah, so most of the time, I'm over on Twitter, I left my main platform at Kiana s. And most of my affiliated stuff are also at Cana as to whether that's ATO or whether that's, you know, Diems guild or all that stuff. On my website. However, I do point towards a couple of things. As I've mentioned, stop sweet games. We're on Twitter, YouTube, and Twitter, all that stuff. That's all actual play content that I have co founded and CO produce over there. And also, I encourage people to go check out our con, which is a system agnostic cyberpunk setting that I co wrote with my friend Jason Cutrone, which is now published through metal wave games, and it's available as a PDF. And also soon to be Brent. As you know, the world is a little less on fire when it comes to when it comes to paper, and ship.
Snyder’s Return:But I will make sure there were links down in the description below this podcast. So please scroll down and follow those links, the various creative outputs that that you have, I will ensure there are links down below. So please scroll down and follow those links to support Kiana and everything that you're associated with. So you mentioned there, switch Wii games and doing lots of sort of community and playing lots of different systems. No, so obviously games, you've played a lot of different systems you're currently playing through and I'll try and get the pronunciation right, Masters laid off a tip.
Kienna Shaw:And now your last a tough Yeah. We love our Lovecraftian names over here.
Snyder’s Return:So that's been running for for over two years, that particular storyline your character of, of Irene Blackwell. So what has it been like to play the same character over such a long period of people dream of having campaigns running over such a long time you've managed to sustain this character. However many assaults on the sanity there may have been you managed to sustain this character over two years of gameplay streamed at your play. What's that been like?
Kienna Shaw:It's been really fun. And it's a joy, that I know that it's fairly rare to get, especially in the actual play space. So much of it now is so focused on you know, shorter, more contained campaigns which has its place and I love doing those two, but it's a very rare space to be able to to have a character who in game has been doing stuff for like five plus years, and then out of game doing it for two years and really able to explore that have the the indulgence to explore that journey fully. She had changed I mean, changed a lot of the character she used to be a very avoidant person used to be very, you know, try to just not think about conflict run away from things quite literally, in her in her life, even before eldritch monsters came into being and being able to, especially in a Polka Zulu campaign, which is totally fine focus on the seventh edition. See how you know, exposure to the unknown and Eldritch Horror will change a person it's very funny to look back at the the earlier parts of the campaign were like everything and quotation horrific was new and awful and like Zeno didn't know how to deal with it and didn't know how to how to investigate this type of thing. And then like, you know, I have to admit we're, we're about a year into the campaign like, this is like, Okay, we know exactly what to do, and we're going into this new place, we're gonna go, you know, follow up on these leads, we're gonna go, there's probably going to be some weird monster in the basement, and we're going to avoid those basements don't drink any tea, might be poison. So it's kind of really fun to just be like, here are characters that are growing in experience, the same way that I the player am going in experience with the the ways that the the NPCs and the the investigation fold out, and still have a be fun and exciting because Morin is a great keeper. And it's able to really make powerful emotional moments happen. And tie in bits and pieces of all of our character stories and backstories and stuff to really effective ends. So yeah, so it's been really fun. And the fact that we're in our last arc of the campaign, now we're we've finally reached the final chapter. So it's going to be, it's going to be interesting to wrap it up and well, but again, it's a it's a pleasure and a joy to be able to do that to be able to have a full story that we feel satisfied with, and that we can we can go forward with.
Snyder’s Return:Yeah, um, with closing this out, I imagine there's something else down further in the pipeline, you're alternating your Call of Cthulhu. With from dust. Yep,
Kienna Shaw:yeah. So from left, if not almost all TV games, but it is over on an RSS channel, a friend of ours, all three games, you know, we're getting to do some orange one there. And that's been very fun for me as well, again, a longer term campaign that we've we've just been able to enjoy. But in terms of sweet games, we're taking a bit of a bit of a content break after after Max and my last step is done. Give us a little bit of space to you know, just let that campaign breeze and figure out what we're going to do next. We're not sure what we're going to do next. Well, we'll figure it out. But we always know that we have the space on the platform to come back to and to do cool stuff with when we are ready for it.
Snyder’s Return:Yeah, absolutely. And you know, through your time I scrolled through Twitter for both yourself and sorcery games and a few of the other Twitch channels and things like that. And you you played the Witcher RPG you play don't castles burn bright you've and a few other systems. So what has been your favourite system to play? Clearly? Call it or poke Cthulhu has been a favourite because you've been able to sustain that and keep this character growing learning changing for good or worse, depending on how old was the archons I suppose. So what has it been like experimenting with different systems? How do you feel that has helped you as a player and a content creator?
Kienna Shaw:It's been great. I again, we are lucky to have that freedom. We've had some very wonderful partnerships with with sponsors and with Bill 20 In order to keep the channel going and let us experiment with the types of things. So you know, be able to try out the Witcher was really cool. I've never had that that type of the type system was very unique. And the life path system was really unique. And I was really cool to experiment with and see, especially since I would play a witcher like what hundreds of years will look like in terms of like how it shapes who your character is and their backstory. And I had the pleasure of GME a Burnbrae campaign, which was a tonne of fun. I super enjoyed that. And there's a lot about that system that I really enjoyed as a GM and seeing it bounce off with my players as well. I had a very lovely group doing that. So it's really fun, kind of be able to see what shines in each system and then also be able to take that and kind of be like okay, what types of GME and play styles of this lean into and really get to play with that because that's a joy to try out different games. We've done also, you know, short shots of all sorts of things. We tried out rush rifles, which is a great world war one game that was you know, very awesome story about the soldiers, the Canadian soldiers during the war. And we've also tried out I even tried one of my own hacks of Lady Blackbird on the stream as well which was a great actually funny enough if it's going to be part of a foundation of a game I'm working on right now so I was able to explore it and see how it works in play and then be able to refine it later. Yeah, it's been I always recommend people to play as many games as possible to expand out their their horizons and see what other games do well and don't do well and all that stuff. But yeah, honestly, I think I think if I'm gonna say any specific favourite other than focusing on it probably gonna be burned, right? I think that was a really fun system. And like, it's hard to find, for me, it's hard to find base fantasy that hits so well. And Burnbrae really delivered. And it helped that always integrated with Bill 20 stuff. So I was using row 20, I was able to look up stuff really well and might be able to do all the, I imagine would be very unwieldy in person, dice pools in that system. So yeah, so that was really, that was a great opportunity, there's a great opportunity as well to explore how to tell stories on a in that more contained space, because I was doing very specifically, like I'm doing 12 episodes per season. And that's it and try to pace out myself to fit in that constraint was really cool.
Snyder’s Return:So having sort of experimented and played and enjoyed and learned from these various systems are there. This is a two pronged, there's about 30 prongs to this question. But we'll start with just the two. Are there any systems that you haven't played yet that you're like, oh, that's on my that's on my playlist about that one, I'm gonna queue that up, and then maybe have a home game or just a private game, just to see how how the gears and the mechanisms work behind the behind the scenes as it were?
Kienna Shaw:Yeah, so I have seen so many different games, there's so many out there that are so cool. I'm really interested in seeing how thirsty storm lesbians work. I mean, I know it's powered by the apocalypse base and everything, but powered by the apocalypse based games take a lot of really cool freedoms from the, from the system, or from the SRB. And so I'm very intrigued about where they went with that. And I've seen that it seemed to be a really fun and fantastic game. And speaking of powered by the apocalypse, the urban shadows, a second edition is coming out. i We have played campaigns of, of urban shadows, first edition on different channels. And so I'm really introducing what what new and improved, and to II, for sure, cuz that's it, I really enjoyed that this the urban fantasy situation there. So I'm definitely interested in checking that out as well. I'm trying to so many different games out there, I'm trying to, like think of them in my head. Cuz Yeah, people are coming up with all sorts of stuff all the time. And
Snyder’s Return:definitely, definitely. So to save you from sort of trying to remember or think of something, let's turn the focus background onto yourself then. So you played the systems, you have a light for certain mechanics and use and things you like, and you don't like, and you have along with CO creators, like Jason You mentioned, created your own games, some of them are solo RPG, some of them are are more like Archon. So that that system agnostic thing, so how, how has seen these other systems inspired you to, to turn out your own work for for us to enjoy?
Kienna Shaw:Yeah, so I what I really enjoy about different systems existing is that they help facilitate different types of stories and emotional experiences. And really understanding how mechanics create that emotional space, or experiential space is something that's really interesting to me. So a lot of my ideas come down to, you know, I understood thinking about, Oh, what if I could make, you know, this type of vibe, I a lot of I joke that a lot of my games are just vibes with some rules to it. Which means that they're they generally are fairly focused in on a very specific thing you mentioned as my body crumbled. And that was a very specific vibe of like, you are, you know, you are constructed being you would die, you are trying to find answers before you die. And so that's a very specific motion, you're not doing a long campaign of that you're not there's not a lot of like flexibility and what types of stories you can tell in there. But there is a very open landscape of specific emotional experiences that are available there. And so I find it really inspiring to look at other systems and see what they have done mechanically to Eve to evoke specific feelings and responses to to those things. I think a good example of that is in good society. You know, regency era types of, you know, drama and romance. And I have this great mechanic called monologue tokens, where basically you have this way that at any point, you can say hello other player, I would love to know what your character is thinking right in this very moment. And it's a fantastic way of doing stuff because that is exactly how those types of stories go, like you're in the middle of a ballroom scene. And they use zoom in on this one person, and you get their internal thoughts. And it really plays into the whole Regency thing of, you know, repressed emotions and like, secret desires, and feelings and stuff. And just even something as simple as that it's able to evoke what they're going forward, which is the, you know, Regency types of stories, and started to be able to, to parse what each thing is doing and how that flows in and that can even go into, you know, what I'm currently working on, which was the Archon system. If seeing, okay, how does mechanics even fit for? How many dice you roll? How does that make you feel? And how does that, like blend into the general vibes and feelings of what we're trying to aim for here? Like, are we making this feel making the player character feel like they're badass is and we feel like everything is, is smooth and simple with some complications? Are we trying to make it so that they really have to think about every component of their task? And it's, you know, grindy and stuff. So it's all all a lot of experimentation and seeing what other people have done to make something similar or to you know, just do something really well. Which is, which is overly cool. I don't know that point to look at.
Snyder’s Return:Yeah, I can. I do have so many follow up questions, but I'll try and stay on on a path. Icahn has, I think he's like 40 different industrial or what are they called? It's right here.
Kienna Shaw:We have we call them factions or like groups and companies, you know, all these all these different players in the political space.
Snyder’s Return:So there's a whole world created in this this neon city of neon daytime, they liked city of neon daylight for players to sort of fall into and so from a well building perspective, not so much from a game mechanic perspective, what what is it that really gets you excited for the process?
Kienna Shaw:Oh, man, so I guess it's probably a good idea to tell you that Archon Adela setting started because Jason and I did a text RP together, we were just like, let's just do a text RP together. Those are kind of in response to the not great stuff that came out of cyberpunk 2077 and we're just like, let's just do something that's that's cool. And then there's world that's not like we Orientalist and stuff like that. And so we kind of were just creating a world as we went, and then we went, Hmm, I want to do something here. And there might be something here that other people might be interested in. So what was really cool about doing that was able to create a, a world that had several interlocking pieces at once and understanding that we're building it not just cool places, and it's not just you know, things don't just happen just because, you know, any world is a combination of history and of people, no science and of politics. So find a way to be able to weave all those pieces together to create an environment that makes sense, and sometimes doesn't make sense within itself because that's the life contradictions happen within itself all the time. And be able to do that from from a very specific, principled lens that we had. So you know, we were at the beginning of the book we outline here were our principles about what Cyberpunk is in the world, just because cyberpunk has has grown in as many depending on who you talk to. So be able to go like, Okay, what does the cyberpunk will look like? That doesn't have Orientalism that addresses the ecological devastation of the world that looks at cybernetics not in a way that is dehumanising but still talks about you know who what bodies belong to who and be able to really kind of push it towards a new direction and then go okay, so what it will look like and what did the different components of that look like to fit that? So be able to create Well, the fact that if we are going to address cybernetics not as dehumanising but as a point of contention about data and who owns what, then we need to create companies that exist that are, you know, that do lend out and create their cybernetic part, but then have you know, are able to track your data by using it? We basically went once in a real world and we went, Oh, yeah, apple. You know, if you have If you had the apple of cybernetics in this world, which we do technically, that is, what flutter for applications is, they are the top of the line, you know, everyone wants some parts. But the thing is, is that you are stuck with them, you cannot repair them yourself, you always have to go to a to a Fletcher fabrications of station, that you can never the same way that you can't really fix Apple stuff by yourself. You have to go to their specific stores and feed in their money. And then you're always having to give up some of your data, right, so that you can use this stuff. And I'm like, okay, so what if that's your body part? What does that mean for that, and therefore, what is the punk part of that the punk part is that is that therefore in retaliation, there are groups who are doing stuff to avoid that, you know, groups who were hacking body parts, to, you know, liberate them from from giving away data, especially if you know, if you're doing some anti corporate stuff, you don't want people tracking you. Or, you know, you're someone who helps fix up these things. So that people don't have to go broke, going to, you know, bespoke body management stations. So it's all these different layers that really kind of play into each other that are just so cool to work with. And that's kind of where, you know, all these organisations that we came up with blossom from, we're all these NPCs that we're able to develop with other people too, we were able to go to when we each funded and we each funded quite successfully, we're able to go to other creators and say, Hey, we would love you to introduce a new faction, a new NPC into this world, and build it out even beyond what our imagination has, and they have been fantastic as well. One of my favourite created by Sailor Scout, often, for example, is a group of people who are called the vampires. And they're basically have cybernetics that make them look like vampires. And they are specifically against the paramilitary group. And so they terrorise this paramilitary group to to stop them from being you know, a military group and the in this endless world, able to drain away their money or, you know, be a nuisance to them, and like, sabotage, these militaristic ventures. And it all comes down to this really mysterious leader of them who nobody has ever seen the face of the voice or heard the real voice of. So it is really cool. And again, that's kind of the basis of this is that we wanted to create a city that still had gaps and spaces for people to build off of, but still have a strong enough foundation that people feel like they have something to go off of in the first place.
Snyder’s Return:Yeah, no, that's exciting stuff. So you can purchase Arkham City of neon daylight from metal weave games, and soon to be in print,
Kienna Shaw:hey, you can pre order it on print now. But the PDF is currently available. So you can definitely get that right now.
Snyder’s Return:Link down below. So please go and do that. I am probably going to do that once we finish this interview. But using some of the things you've mentioned there some of the things you've mentioned previously. So mentioned layers, we've mentioned emotional space, which I want to tie back to your curation of the TTRPG toolkit, the Safety Toolkit. You did that alongside a different Lauren.
Kienna Shaw:Lauren. Yes. Name Lauren.
Snyder’s Return:So how has that since you create curated and brought it for everybody's use? How, how has that changed your approach to to TT RPGs? And what wider impact have you seen across the community?
Kienna Shaw:Yeah, so that's, that's a really fun question. So in the very, very beginning, the very first iteration of what would become the toolkit was from me again, like I said, I want to deepen the actual play space. One of the communities that was involved in the channel job involved in do they use safety tools on streamers like, oh, wow, this is this is great. I wish I had this before. Like, they were using the X and O cars. I was like, Oh, wow, like I wish I had to wait this like I wish I knew this earlier. So I could have used in my own game so I could have been able to bring it up in some way click play experiences can unfortunately my very first play experience was a witch with a group that crossed boundaries very quickly. And so I knocked out of that after the first session, and I was like, wow, this is this is great. Like I I wish more people knew about this. So I just posted on Twitter, it's like hey, so like, I know a bunch of streamer friends. Would this be interested in introducing you to have like over our friends Are we like these these safety tools that already exist out there? And all right, yeah, that's that sounds cool. And so I, you know, I went looking because into into different archive forms and realising that the reason I hadn't heard about a lot of these is just that they were kind of scattered all over the place, there was no easy way to find out, there was no easy way to look up, like these types of things. So yeah, so I just created a, like a Google Doc, that was just like, hey, here's like, the basics about some of the tools that I know about that, and how you can use them in your, in your streams. And so I put that up, and it exploded, it went far beyond my my circle of people. And it reached a lot of a lot of different people and had a very, very different variety of responses. Most of them were which, well, I had never heard about these before, these are so cool. I'm gonna start using these. Some of them were like, Hey, you didn't mention this safety tool. I'm like, wow, I didn't know that safety tool existed. I will add that on at some point. And of course, I had some people who were like, you know, you're a baby, if you leave safety tools, like this is gonna ruin games. And, but it was really that that well, positive, you know, feedback, and people discovering safety tools, the way that I did and being like, well, I didn't realise these 10 of like, decades of work had already existed out there. It wasn't, you know, mainstream. And that kind of pushed me to, Okay, keep thinking about this. And then more and more investment bank, she reached out to me, and she's like, Hey, so there's a con happening. Local to me, and it would have been a couple of hours away from me, where I was living at that time. And it's like, do you want to like, do a talk about safety tools at this con? And we're like, yeah, that sounds like great. So we started prepping for that. And then we were told that the room we were going to have for this panel that we're going to put on about, let's say 211 wouldn't have any AV in it. So no, no screen, nothing. Like oh, shoot, okay, well, that goes, there goes out most of our ability to talk about this stuff. And then we were like, wait, I was like, I need to create something, I need to make an update to the original document that I had. Why don't we just make a like a link that people can go to. And so we updated the guide. But we created a Google folder that just had, you know, information about safety tools, and like ways to contact us and like ways to look more into safety stuff and all the original links to all the sources that we could find. So we put that together, for specifically for the con, but also for a wider distribution so that when we went to the con, we were able to give out links. And that's where the the bitly link originally comes from. And I was also able to post it on Twitter be like, hey, so remember that document that I made, that was kind of a whim, like we've actually developed out a proper full resource out of this. And that also exploded. And then it just kind of grew from there. And we were, we were very honoured to be, you know, any winners for 20, for free product there, and you know, just be able to see more and more people be able to refer to something and use that as a jumping off point for creating safer spaces in their gaming o world, whether that's at the table, whether it's with inside of their own games, as well. So that's where it all kind of had started and where it's grown from there, it's just more and more people have started using and talking about it because it's just more accessible. And of course, has come with this, you know, with his bumps in the road. Of course, there's been, you know, people who have mistaken us for creators of the safety tools in there, which we have very clearly stated in several different places that no, we're not like we have literally pointed you to the actual originators of the tool, please go credit them instead. We've also had, you know, series of, of harassment and people telling us that we're ruining games, and all that stuff. But in the end, again, it's just been a positive force and even the past, you know, few years, it's been amazing to see just how much more widely accepted safety tools are how much you know, if your general practice to talk about safety in your games MSSM actual play spaces in the writing and design space. I think, you know, we have been able to bring it into mainstream conversation again, like the toolkit, and what more than I did are not the only reasons that happened. There's been a tonne of other amazing work that have been done by other creators in the space to make this happen. But the toolkit is part of that movement. And as part of that, that motion towards a world wide stream and more wide and mainstream acceptance. So yeah, so that's been, that's been a kind of a wild thing that happened. And now women are able to do expand out of out of drift creation work and be able to, you know, work with game designers and stuff to create specific safety tools for their games. So rather than just, you know, having these as like a third party thing built into the actual system itself. So we were able to work with Karen Joanne and we're gonna Deckard die RPG, we're able to work with Shawn pumpkin on Star forged. So that's been that's been really cool, I should be able to see people push it forward even more and try to from the baseline from the foundation, bringing that safety principle and care right into their games.
Snyder’s Return:Yeah. And, you know, we, as a show sort of used the Safety Toolkit. It was, how was it phase two, it was phrased as calibration tools. So we take the Safety Toolkit, and we can use them to calibrate the table to the game we wanted to play. And it's such a such a great resource you've curated as you say, not created curated. So, and within that toolkit, there's so many different systems and approaches to safety lines of bows, X and O cards and things like that. What systems? Do you what are your favourite sort of tools in the toolkit to use? What are your preferred tools?
Kienna Shaw:Yeah, so I mean, this is always talking about my specific favourites are generally generally I use line to veil or some general use accent and go oh, cards. And I use jargon wishes. However, a lot of like, like I say, I the and try to avoid making it so that those are the only ones right, those are not the only ones. The whole point of the toolkit is that we provide a variety of different tools, because you know, everyone has their own needs. And those need may be different, or conflict in conflict with each other. And not every problem can be solved with one solution. And so we call it a toolkit because it's several tools for whatever you need. At the table, like you're not always going to use a hammer for every single, you know, you're not going to use a hammer for a screw will use a hammer for a nail. And it works great for that. But if you have a screw, you want to use a different tool. So yeah, so those are the ones that I generally use, but they adapt from table to table. Some tables work better with, you know, something like script change. Some tables work better with, you know, the locks and technique. There's a whole different varieties there. And I always encourage people to to experiment and see what works for them. And when they have something that works for them to not always be set on that just because sometimes, if you have different people at the table who have different needs, you might need to be a little more flexible. And find solutions and compromises that works for everybody.
Snyder’s Return:Yeah, yeah, for sure. So taking this from table to table to expand it slightly community to community, you've mentioned that you've done a lot of community work. And now you're involved as part of our community manager for the longest rest. So how did you sort of rephrase that slightly? How did you get involved with the longest restaurant and flows that are unfamiliar with it? Because it's currently a time recording start a new project? What is the longest rest, please?
Kienna Shaw:Yes. So the longer dressed is an upcoming game by Gian Sheehan, who is a friend of mine. It is a dark fantasy game, we describe it as as d&d meets House of Leaves. So it's a horror game that's meant to you know, evoke this fantastical world where you were in a at an end, and the end wants to keep you there forever. So it's a it's a very fun game. It's currently in its play, play test phase, and will be going to crowdfund in, in a few months. So yeah, so Gianna and I have worked on other's projects before her projects that I have contributed to. And she were trying to find ways to reach out to, to more people to talk about the game to try out the game, and to you know, get ready for the crowdfunding campaign. And so she reached out to me and say, like, hey, like, I don't have the expertise on this. Would you be interested in helping me out with this community aspect of the longest? Hell yes. So yeah, so I am now the director of community court. question there, which is basically just how do we get this game into the hands of as many people as possible, and get as many people interested and excited about it. So that's been a fun new project to try out.
Snyder’s Return:Now it sounds it sounds like a lot of fun, especially in an inn or a tavern that wants to keep you sealed in a locked in that's that's sends shivers down the spine as it were, but in a good way that sort of anticipation and excitement that you want from from this sort of thing. So with respect to community management, and things like that, say if other people want to start discord servers, or they want to act as part of mods for for Twitch streams, or YouTube streams or whatever platform, they want to sort of curate, if you've got any tips for that, because you have a vast experience that we must be untapped. By, by many. Yeah, so
Kienna Shaw:it's a it's a bit of work that I don't talk a lot about, mostly because it's very behind the scenes and stuff. A lot of what people need to realise, I think, is that community, creating a community is intentional design. community doesn't pop out of nowhere. And if it does, and if not managed properly, that's when it quickly can can devolve into a toxic space. And so a lot of where management comes in, is in setting up, what are the expectations? What are the guidelines? How do people interact with each other? How do people interact with, especially if you're building around the channel? How do people interact with the channel and the cast members and stuff? I am very, you know, a big advocate for sending out you know, what your your politics rules are and what your stuff is, you know, what are your rules for any form of bigotry that shows up? Like, do you have a zero? Like zero tolerance policy? Do you have a you know, three strikes, you're out? And then also looking at, you know, how do you? How do you make the decisions, like if there's a whole mod team, and everyone had equal say, is it one mod and you know, people who were working for that mod. So be able to intentionally create the space for people to come in, and to interact and talk to each other and enjoy what's going on. It's super important. I've been out of the actual management, committee management game for a little bit, there's been some really great spaces that have been created, though, of sample by hyper RPG is a great one that I can think about. And, you know, I, with the longest stretch time, I'm kind of dipping a little bit into there, but I'm more interested, as the, you know, community coordination is more about reaching out to different people and trying to find not just the big names, but also the, you know, the small little groups and the, the channels of doing really cool interesting stuff. And the play testers that have unique experiences, be able to create a, an inclusive and open space for them to come in and try out the game. So yeah, we're a little less focused on on creating a community and, and community management and more, how do we outreach? How do we how do we reach out and connect with people? And, you know, even if they just want to take a take a flip through the pages, that's enough, right? Because that's, it's so so important for indie projects to get your eyes on stuff. Because that's the hardest part, if the hardest part is to get people's eyes on things, because there's so many, you know, games that are out there all the time, and defining what's unique about your project. And making other people interested in is really, really important. And we're lucky that like, we do have lots of longest REC is a horror game. And the horror community is a very strong one there is when people hear horror, they know what to expect. And they they're really into it. So we're lucky to to have that space already, where people already kind of intrigued by a horror concept, especially indie games, but yeah, just be able to reach out even further beyond that, and hopefully find people who normally wouldn't try to pick up a horror game who might be interested in this because it's, you know, kind of d&d, adjacent, we're kind of in that fantasy realm. You know, just kind of, and we're also reaching out to people who aren't in the game space, who aren't in the indie game space, who might be interested in it as well. You know, trying to make games not just for gamers, but also for other audiences is really key. And so people to reach out to those to those groups, is, you know, an important and interesting challenge. So that's that's kind of In my work and job there,
Snyder’s Return:oh, yeah, it sounds like a lot. And I did more digging on your website and you, you know, you're working your bachelor of knowledge integration, how has the TTRPG stuff and your educational stuff? So your your bachelor's, how was that sort of tied together and supported each other?
Kienna Shaw:Yeah, so I started in the interior b2b space while I was still in school for that undergrad. So as a, as a general summary of what the Bachelor of knowledge integration is so unique, one of a kind programme at the University of Waterloo. And it specifically looks at interdisciplinary problem solving and thinking. So it involves, you know, design thinking, it involves knowledge, and how we use it, how we, how we create it, how we view it, and also looking at communication, being able to look at how to take complex ideas and communicate them to specific groups and audiences of different varieties and also interconnecting different disciplines together. So you know, be able to combine science and maths and arts, and have all the different people from these different groups work together and collaborate. Because the world is not just one discipline, the world is several, and a combination of all. So that was basically what my programme was, and was very open. But a lot of the foundational stuff talking about, you know, how do we communicate? And then how do we also receive information? And how do we learn? And how do we teach was really foundational for a lot of the ways I approach TTRPG is, you know, be able to like, how do you any gamebook that you have, is teaching someone to how to do something, and it's having to do with specific flow of information and, you know, trying to communicate specific concepts, through words, and through the layout and through how information is, is is spaced out. So that was really important there, to kind of look at that, and it's also really important to look at it from an interdisciplinary format, because games are, are a combination of both writing and math, if you're doing, you know, any form of of mechanics. And is, you know, design thinking is also very important, looking at how do you create things for people? How do you design things with the idea that you are trying to solve a problem in some way? When in the game space that that problem is usually is how do I make this specific thing work in this game, so that people have fun with it, to be able to, to bring all these aspects together was was something really important. And then a programme was also very open. So you're able to do a lot of electives, and try out a lot of different things. And so I was able to, you know, try out some cool exploration of like, I did a product design course, because I was cool on SNAP functions into how I, how I do layout, in games, I was able to take some courses in AI ethics, and social political stuff, I was able to take other asset courses and stuff like this. So it was a very well rounded education that I was lucky to have. And so I've kind of always, there's always a interplay of, of what my experiences are, and what I'm trying to create. Which also, like when I when I was doing this, I transitioned out of school, I went into a full time job, which was about change management, which is about you know, how do you make change happen, certainly on an organisational level. And that's also a thing that is very important than in games, because you are trying to make a change happen, you are trying to, for like both in when you're playing a game, you're trying to teach people how to do a thing and do specific behaviours and explaining why that's important. But also, on a greater level, my other work, you know, making change happen in the safety space, making change happen in communities and stuff. That was something that I kind of folded everything into. And in fact, like my ability to create guides, and stuff come from my my experiences in my day job. So I think it's I think everyone has a way of being able to incorporate all the skills that they have and be able to see what skills you have and how they're applicable across different projects is something that's really important and really, really interesting can open a beloved voice for you.
Snyder’s Return:Absolutely. So between, you know, moving from full time education into full time employment streaming, and sort of doing shows regularly, content creation, and consulting and all these other things. Do you get any downtime do you get a Utah
Kienna Shaw:I am trying I'm trying very hard to make that work life balance work better for me. I was looking back at stuff. And I was realising that when I was doing streaming at my main thing, I was doing that while I was a full time student. And while I was doing a part time job, and I was like, how am I doing five to seven shows a week? And I was like, How do I? How do I do that? I had no idea that was like, not at about like, three years ago, four years ago now. Like, that's, I don't know how how that version of me ever existed was able to do that. Because now there's like, I have two shows a week maybe. And like, I do my writing stuff. And I'm happy where I am. So yeah, it's been, it's, it's so easy to try to just like do everything all at once. Especially if you're a content creator, especially if you're in the TTRPG space, you feel like you have to hustle constantly. And it's been very important to me. And funnily enough, I think the pandemic really helped with that, for me to kind of have that Wake Up Call of like, hey, you need to like, you just short yourself out, you need to, you need to find where you set your boundaries, so that you can live life because you can't create stuff, if you're if you're not doing stuff outside of that as well. Like you're what you're creating from it from a well of inspiration and from experiences. And eventually, that's gonna go dry, if you don't do anything else, other than make stuff that you need to go out and experience while you need to be able to have the time and space to play games for fun or to watch movies or to you know, hang out with your friends. And that was, you know, that's been a learning curve for me, and also making a lot of decisions. Like I left my full time job earlier this year, so that I could pursue doing T deputy stuff full time, give myself, you know, a year to try it out, see if I feel like this is the space for me. And that required making that decision to be like, okay, like, I feel like I can sustain myself for at least a little while. Let me see if this is the right space for me. Because I was just not able to do all the writing work that I wanted to do while also doing a nine to five every every day. So yeah, so it's, it's a work in progress. I'm still, you know, trying to get myself out of the mindset of like, little Oh, you know, I have to work all the time. It's like, No, I can relax. Relaxing is good. Actually. taking time off is good actually. Yeah. trying, trying and
Snyder’s Return:succeeding to a certain extent, I'm sure,
Kienna Shaw:to an extent, some weeks better than others.
Snyder’s Return:So I can't, you know, we've covered quite a lot in so many of the amazing things that you're you're working on and have worked on and working towards. Is anything that we haven't spoken about during this interview that you want to cover before we close?
Kienna Shaw:I don't I don't think so. Like I said, I do have a lot of different things. And that's something that I want to continue doing. Like it's, I'm, I don't like being pigeon holed into a specific area. Part of the freedom that I've enjoyed in the Tdap space is just kind of be able to do a bunch of stuff. And I think what people should allow themselves to do that, like there's this concept of having to be an expert at one thing, and put all your energy into one thing. And like, Well, that does lead to a lot of success for a lot of people. I would feel I feel personally antsy when that starts to happen. Like when people like oh, yeah, you were the one person like you were only do safety stuff, we're only going to talk to you about safety stuff I'm going to emulate but I have all these other things that I can do that I really also find it interesting and important to me. So yeah, so I got to have a party note, I guess that's that's kind of where I want to leave it is that, you know, a creativity comes in different forms. And, you know, people should find the space to explore that and to do different things if they feel like doing different things, you know, don't have to feel like, oh, I want to do streaming. So I must always focus my energy 100% on streaming, it's like no, you can also try out other cool stuff, and you don't have to be great the first time you do it. Part of a part of doing anything, you're just getting started and getting started you will be okay at it first and then you will get better. I look at my old game. Sometimes I go wow. I can't believe people bought that. But you know what, it's an okay game. And it's where I started and look at where I am now. And that's important to look at that journey and to know that it's only because I started that I was able to get to where I am and I'm very lucky to be where I am right now.
Snyder’s Return:Oh there you go and on that you Inspirational sort of close out Kiana Would you please remind everybody where they can find you and everything you're associated with? Yeah, of
Kienna Shaw:course I you can find me over on Twitter at Kienna s factory to figure out I'm doing Can I do a bunch of stuff on the internet, if you want to see my actual place to go check out sorcery, games, and much more, check out more safety tools stuff, go check out the TTRPG Safety Toolkit, which is you can just look it up or use the bitly link. And also, if you're interested in seeing my writing work, with collaborations with people go check that out over on HBO, or over at metal wave games with Archon.
Snyder’s Return:Links will be in the description below this podcast Kienna. It has been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. I'd love to get you back in the future for another interview or maybe a one shot.
Kienna Shaw:Yeah, thanks so much for having me. This has been an awesome conversation.
Snyder’s Return:I look forward. I've really enjoyed it. So thank you and I look forward to speaking to you again in the future. I look forward to your to Thanks for listening. If you'd like to learn more about the show, then go to www dot Snyder’s return.squarespace.com. Alternatively, you can find us over on Twitter. At return Schneider. We have a link tree link in the description of this episode. And if you want to support us, come and join us over on Patreon and we also have a Discord server. Please leave us a review because we'd love to learn how to improve the channel and provide better content out for for those who are listening until we until we speak again. Thank you