Interview - Lucas Falk - Blackfisk Publishing - Heroes of Cerulea

Today I talk with Blackfisk Publishing's TTRPG Game Designer - Lucas Falk.

We discuss the Heroes of Cerulea Kickstarter, the Swedish TTRPG scene, different game mechanics, Safety Tools and much more.

You can find Lucas, Blackfisk Publishing and all of their associated content via the links below.

Twitter:
https://twitter.com/blackfiskpub

Website:
https://blackfiskforlag.com/

Other:
https://linktr.ee/blackfiskpublishing
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/blackfiskforlag/heroes-of-cerulea-pixelated-dungeon-crawl-tabletop-rpg
https://www.instagram.com/blackfiskpub/
https://www.facebook.com/blackfiskpub

Please leave reviews on ITunes to help us to learn and grow as a Podcast

Yours Sincerely,

Adam 'Cosy' Powell

~~~~~~~~~~

CAST & CREW

Host: Adam Powell

Guest: Lucas Falk - Blackfisk Publishing

Sound Design: Adam Powell

Edited by: Adam Powell

Music: Epidemic Sound

Cover Art: Tim Cunningham - www.Wix.com

~~~~~~~~~~

Website:
https://linktr.ee/snydersreturn
http://snydersreturn.squarespace.com
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIoZ8iiYCp919UHXUYGghbw
https://www.redbubble.com/shop/?query=Roscoe%27s%20Chimkin&ref=search_box

Buy us a TTRPG Source Book: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/SnydersReturn

Are you on DISCORD? Come hang out in our server! https://discord.gg/QgU5UNf Join us in the Snyder’s Return Facebook Group!

Visit https://www.patreon.com/snyders_return?fan_landing=true

~~~~~~~~~~~

Social Media:

Twitter - https://twitter.com/ReturnSnyder

Instagram -  Snyder's Return (@snyders_return)

Email - snydersreturn@gmail.com

~~~~~~~~~~~

Transcript

Snyder’s Return: 0:25

Hello, and welcome to Snyder’s return a tabletop roleplay podcast. My guest today joins us from the depths to bring us a link to adventure and nostalgia. He gives us the green light to explore not only different lands, but different themes as well. Looking to kickstart heroic adventures might sound like a daunting task, but their bravery drives them forward. Here to give us an insight into Heroes of Cerulea is TTRPG designer and Blackfisk Publishing Co Founder Lucas Falk. Lucas, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. That's probably the best introduction I've ever gotten in an interview. So thanks a lot for that. No, no, it's a pleasure.

Lucas Falk: 1:04

Thank you for joining me. Before we get into some of the things I alluded to there in the introduction, Lucas, how did you get into tabletop role playing games, please? I'm not quite sure, actually. But I think like I, I got into like fantasy and things like that when I was really into Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles as a kid. And I got that Turtles in Time game from my parents, and I had it for half a day. And then they noticed it was all about beating people up. So they took that game away, returned it, and got me a new one. And I was really angry. And when I was set on, like hating the new game, they caught me, but that was the Legend of Zelda Link to the Past. I loved it. So I got really into like, fantasy, like heroic stories. And I think I didn't have anyone around me that was into tabletop role playing games. But I sort of heard about it through like a friend of a friend of a friend. So I got I had another friend that was really into like, fantasy and adventure and like digital games. So we brought him and a bunch of other friends who we, we've found like a role playing book, somehow, I can't really remember how someone got their hands on one, we read it. And we tried to figure out how to play together. And I've been hooked ever since.

Snyder’s Return: 2:32

That's amazing. And so ever since sort of picks up, where was your sort of tabletop journey taken you sort of leading us up to where you are today effectively.

Lucas Falk: 2:45

So I started out with a Swedish game called Drop care of the mourner. It's like rune quest based game that was really big in in Sweden. And they were doing like a reboot of it right now. And we kept playing that and then I sort of veered in, I started to get getting sort of annoyed with the rules, they felt limiting to the storytelling aspect. So my gaming group veered into like freeform gaming a lot more. And then we started feeling like maybe we want some kind of rules and dials because that was sort of fun, too. And I started designing my own systems for a while. And then I heard of fiasco, which is, like a more collaborative storytelling game than like an adventure game. And I got my hands on that book. And I was like, I have no idea like the reading the first Rolfing book, I sort of figure it out. But then I had roleplay for so long that the fiasco with like the scenes and the collaborative storytelling didn't make sense to me like how that could be role playing as well. And we tried it and then I fell in love with that. So I was really into like the story games side. And now, like the last couple of years, I've been getting more into the the OSR the old school Renaissance games. So I've been pretty much all over the place. I was into LARPing for a while as well, like out of the woods dressing up as mediaeval characters. So I've tried pretty much everything except d&d.

Snyder’s Return: 4:38

I think it's one of the rare exceptions to be honest.

Lucas Falk: 4:40

I we did try it for a couple of sessions but wasn't my cup of tea so

Snyder’s Return: 4:46

that's yeah, that's entirely fair. So having gone through this, this journey through the more structured into the more narrative and and where you want to do, where did where did this path intersect and become black fish public, black fish public session publishing.

Lucas Falk: 5:07

Black fist gets its octopus in Swedish like ink fish. We figured it's close enough to being pronounceable in English and still has a stamp of our Swedish heritage. But yeah, like I said, I started creating my own games quite early, but they were like frameworks of systems, not really games per se. And then I started working more seriously, I'm like trying to create a real game and printing that into a book. And I had a podcast about role playing games in Swedish, where we like a discussion podcast. And I started hanging out on a Discord server with other Swedish RPG podcasters. And we had like a channel on the discord server, about, like creating role playing games. And there were a couple other guys there, we gelled pretty well in our, like, ambitions. And we clashed a lot in how our preferences and experiences, but we help each other out a lot with our respective designs. And at some point, we just figured, alright, so we could either like, I have a background in information design and layout stuff, where another one of the guys had, like, he was a librarian. And third guy had a background in economics. And we're like, so we could either learn each other's trades. And then we could go to conventions, and set up three tables. And, and spend a lot of time on that, or we could just join together, try to help each other out with the things that everyone is particularly good at and leave the other stuff to the people who are better at it. Yeah, we can take turns being in a booth at conventions, and we could, like have one social media account instead of three and all the things like that. So we felt like, yeah, we would share the same, like ethos of design, like the same general values, but we have different preferences and perspective on games. So it was a good fit. And we figured we'd get more things done with more arms working collaboratively with so that's why we ended up with the black fiscal octopus with many arms together.

Snyder’s Return: 7:43

Yeah, that's that's a great story. I love it. And so as as a business as an entity, you have put out a couple of TTRPG is one that's brand new, and we'll touch on that. But what about your your early releases? blood feud, or?

Lucas Falk: 8:00

Yeah, so we actually started out being really cautious. Like, we didn't want to sink too much money into the things and we didn't want to create like too large projects, with shipping all over the world. So we started out doing a couple of games in Swedish, which were like, yeah, they reached an audience. But this Swedish, TD RPG community isn't that large, even though there are a lot of creators, but at a certain point, you've pretty much reached everyone who's going to buy a niche in the game. And then we felt brave enough to start trying our hand at more international games. So the first international game we did was blood feud, which is more more in the story game. The type of game with more collaborative storytelling, and it's focused on toxic masculinity, the Viking Age, like you play as men in a community competing for for being the most manly and the most honourable, and everything that that entails.

Snyder’s Return: 9:14

Yeah, and I can use his honour tokens to sort of shift the balance of power down and interesting sort of mechanic has using these various alternate mechanics or should we say like that one sort of opened out your tabletop role playing experience in that respect? Yeah,

Lucas Falk: 9:39

I think like, the categories of different games are sort of, they can be helpful on a very, like the broad aspects of them can be helpful for discussing different kinds of games, but I think there's a lot of games that overlap and they and they have a lot of things to teach the other side. So I think we picked up more and more different ideas and sort of try. I think that as a designer, it helps to have an idea of the different options and tools you can work with. And try to, like, use what's useful to that particular game, get inspired by something and then discard things that it's not for this game in particular, but would do better in another game. So I think like, having a general knowledge of different game design solutions and different approaches to game design, this is really helpful in trying to create the best focused experience that that you're able to do at that point, at least. Yeah,

Snyder’s Return: 10:53

you're one of the other games to be found on the website, and I'll get some links from you in a moment. slaying dragons uses yet another different sort of resolution mechanic where you succeed, and then it's sort of a good or bad outcome. I found that to be very intriguing. So how, how has it been sort of developing these systems? And where have you got your inspirations from for these systems in that respect?

Lucas Falk: 11:24

Yeah, I think the spin the blood feud game was very much inspired by another game called sagas of the Icelanders. And, like, it drew a lot of inspiration from different areas, and slaying dragons. I was mostly doing like editing and graphics for that game. So I can't really speak for how Amos came up with, like the game design mechanic. But the interesting thing about slaying dragons, it's it is like a classic dungeon crawling game, where you, you're a party of adventurers, and you go to defeat the evil dragon. But the thing is, you know, as players that you will succeed, you will defeat the dragon, you will like, in the end, the expedition will be successful. But the question is whether your characters will hurt each other, and if they are able to change their bad behaviour, and what they learn about themselves and the others throughout the journey. So it's sort of, I mean, it's the same way with any, like action flick, you know, that the good guys gonna win. But you could still be interesting. In this case, like the it's not the interesting thing is not whether the characters succeed or not, but it's what they sacrifice on what compromises they, they are forced to choose to, to succeed. So I think, like in blood feud, it's very much about competing against the other players, in a sense, but you're also collaborating is telling me the story. In this Lady dragons, you're absolutely collaborating in defeating the dragon and, and also collaborating, telling the story. But in both cases, it's a lot of I don't know if it's widely used internationally. But in the Swedish game design community, we talk a lot about arrows pointing inwards, or arrows pointing outwards, like if the arrows are pointing inwards, you're competing against the other characters, you have internal conflict. And if the arrows are pointing outwards, you're sort of facing an external threat together. And I think you could achieve interesting things when we you go for one thing or the other, like, the experience is very different. And you get a lot of more drama, when your two characters are competing for something or working against each other in some sense, as long as like all the players are in on it. You could do that in a traditional RPG game as well. But then usually someone is not too happy about

Snyder’s Return: 14:19

that seems to spoil games when the room wants to steal everything and all that sort of stuff. Yeah.

Lucas Falk: 14:26

I mean, like, if everyone's in on it, it's much easier to get along. Like you expect everyone to stab you in the back then when someone does it, that's all well and good. But if you sort of had your thinking about the agreement is we're working together and then someone starts working against you or betraying you, then you can get annoyed as a player rather than as the character.

Snyder’s Return: 14:52

So before we move on to sort of the big project that I invited you onto to speak about something I'm personally excited about, where can we find your good self, but first publishing, and everything, sort of the two of you, as yourself and an entity are associated with please. Yeah, so

Lucas Falk: 15:15

I think are like the main thing is our website, which is black Fisk, publishing.com. And then you can find us on like on Facebook or blackface publishing and Twitter, black Fiske pub, Instagram as well. And my Twitter handle is ruli and five. So we try to post like, the publishing company accounts is mostly focused on on products and things like that. And my personal account is more discussing game design. Not necessarily speaking for the entire company,

Snyder’s Return: 16:01

of course. Yeah, well, I will make sure the links to your yourself and black physical publishing are in the description below this podcast, scroll down, follow those links and support the team for what we're about to talk about next, which is your your latest project you're depending on when you're listening to this. It's either about to be kickstarted being kickstarted, or successfully, because I'm hopeful for it because successfully Kickstarter game heroes of Surya Lucas, would you mind sort of telling us a little bit more about this new game place.

Lucas Falk: 16:37

So it's a very minimalistic and sort of retro classical tabletop RPG where you go into dungeons and defeat monsters, and but it's very much influenced by video games. So and Legend of Zelda in particular. So it's not like a classic old school role playing game. Because it incorporates a lot of like video game logic aspects. And it offers a different experience in that sense. And I think that was sort of the design goal with it, too. I think it started out as, like I read a Selda. Another sell their rip off tabletop RPG. And I was like, how this is not at all how I would have personally designed a Zelda game. And that's very subjective, of course. But I was sort of, how would I design it and then I started working on it just for fun that and then it ended up like, some things were clicking like with a video game logic. And it turned out into something that was that I found more interesting than just just doing like a licence RPG you sort of combine things that were interesting challenges. To me as a game designer, I think it ended up being a game that offers a slightly different tabletop role playing game

Snyder’s Return: 18:13

experience. Yeah, absolutely. So I've sort of, well, I'll do this another plug in. If someone intrigued by this sort of inspiration from Lincoln Zelda and the sort of a more retro style, where could they go to find annex? Have you got examples like a like a play test almost for people to sort of have a look at? Yeah,

Lucas Falk: 18:33

on our itch, which I forgot to plug, which is also black fist pump, I think. We got like a quickstart play test version, in the form of three pamphlets that you can print out yourself to try out the game, and it's pay what you want. And there's like a Game Master pamphlet, player and rules pamphlet and ready made dungeon that you can explore together. So you can go to our our black fist pub on each and download it if you want to try it out and take a look.

Snyder’s Return: 19:12

Well, that is exactly what I did. So I'm not going to test your knowledge of it, just in case you haven't got it sort of immediately in front of you. But some of the things I'd love for you to talk about. I guess the first one because it's so key for players in that respect. Dungeon Master is the character sheet, and how the simple, simple yet elegant, yet nostalgic, retro characteristics help bring the game to life.

Lucas Falk: 19:40

Yeah, I think like first of all the presentation and everything of it. That was also a thing that like clicked somewhere along the way. Like if we're doing a retro video game, RPG then it should probably have retro video game graphics as well. So everything is like pixelated and these retro pixel illustrations. And I think, in a lot of ways, it doesn't make sense, because if you're doing a print product, you don't have to use pixels. But in this case, I think it adds to the value like in an information design aspect is you immediately get a sense of what kind of game that is, and what sort of feelings trying to convey. And it also like, in a game design aspect with, like, the rules are very minimalistic. If you have a lot of traditional games, they have all these stats for, like strength and agility or dexterity and intelligence, constitution, then you have a bunch of skills. And I tried to condense all that into just three stats, like the main stats of the Silva games, pretty much. So so in this game, it's might bravery and insight. So they, the pretty much make up the entire character, except for the items that you found. So I wanted to put a lot of focus on like unique items, which is pretty much like the the the other aspect of the character, like you have a certain item, and that is your characters item. And you can use that item to solve problems creatively. Like, the main way you, you don't really level up or gain experience, but you found you find new items, which gives you new abilities and things like that. So, so yeah, very minimalistic, not only visually, but also mechanically.

Snyder’s Return: 21:53

Yeah, I love the hearts and energy that that sort of heart back to the gaming area have spoken about that. And that style, it makes sort of tracking things are a lot easier, because quick glance, it's a one page character sheet, you can look down and you immediately know what state you're in, you don't have to work the numbers or sort of judge this. If you don't have enough hearts, you're in trouble. If if you don't have any energy left, you're you're in trouble. Well, that's that's kind of the great way this game comes across as a few other bits I'd love to get to but what was it like sort of bringing those elements you mentioned from inspire your inspirations, sort of breaking those parts of the game down to a a user friendly but immersive experience?

Lucas Falk: 22:43

Yeah, I think in a lot of ways, I mean, you could just say, you could call it HP instead, and have like, a box where you fill in a number. But but just like in this particular instance, it's so much more evocative of the feeling we're going forward to use hearts and to have pixel hearts that you fill in or cross out when when you lose them. And yeah, same with the energy, it's sort of like, almost like a resource you can spend to do do stuff or you can suffer like less dangerous, like less severe consequences. When you perform actions, you just lose energy. So it's sort of like, like, a resource you can spend but also, act sort of acts like a safe safeguard, or like a protection, my guess. But yeah, I think that was a lot of these things just came quite naturally when you started thinking about and like the inspiration and the game we wanted to create, and you were looking at the the influences. Like how they solve problems, and then just translate that into the tabletop.

Snyder’s Return: 24:06

With respect to to the game mechanically. A lot of people might be reaching for, you know, a bunch of DC X or a couple of D 20. Or what what system does hot heroes of Surulere employ to to fill out the dice goblins have.

Lucas Falk: 24:23

It's a really provocative design choice, I've noticed, but some have expressed love for it as well. It's like a dye pools with de force. So four sided dice only that you roll a you count that the highest die you get. So like if you have you have your three stats, and if you have three in mind, you do something that requires fiscal strength, your old three divorce and the highest day counts. So yeah, the day before Like, it's not my personal favourite at all, I think there are more. Like, if you just roll the one before that sort of anticlimactic, it just pops down. It doesn't roll. It's not always that easy to read. But going with the, like, minimalistic through line of the game, like the deforest the smallest, normal role playing die at least. And it also is like, sort of triangular, like the Triforce in Silva. And, yeah, it's just sort of weird, but a bit, almost like cute. Like, it's a really small dye and no one likes it. So I felt some kind of redemption for it. And once you're all a pool of Defour is a lot more fun to draw them I think.

Snyder’s Return: 25:54

Yeah. And you use the default. It's not just a roll and take the highest you sort of do you almost use it like a tendon units, because you can roll like the in the rules it's causing DD so you roll the first he attends and the second roll? It's yeah, all

Lucas Falk: 26:10

right. Yeah, for a lot of tables, to get more options than just four and not to add to add, I think like it's commonly used, like a D, six to six, I think it's the like common way to refer to it. But since this game only uses the four divorce, I shortened it as just D D. So you're all ones, and that's the tents and the Urals wants, and that's the single digit. So you can get, like a bit longer tables and options, things like that.

Snyder’s Return: 26:46

And with respect to what the master as it, as it calls it, on the front of the pamphlet for the master. The master doesn't roll dice in that respect, if I'm understanding the ruleset Yeah,

Lucas Falk: 27:00

so I think like a lot of traditional games, at least, they have like, the players are all for their characters, and then the game master roles for enemies and you sort of like worst case scenario, everyone fails, and nothing really happens, or both succeed. And then like, it's almost like nothing really happens, because you have a lot of HP and you just whip that down slowly. One thing that I've always found more like, enhancing of game flow, and like you, I really want for things to always happen when you roll die. So So like with this solution, the players roles, they determine the outcome of actions for enemies as well. So like, if, if the player roles really good, the hero succeeds, and the enemy fails. And if the player rolls, like so, so resolved, both of them succeed. And if the player rolls badly, the player character fails, and they the opponent wins. So it's sort of a way to remove one one role in a sense, and bake everything into a single role. And also, like it frees up a lot of mental capacity for the Game Master not to have to like find the dice and look at certain values, you can focus more on describing the opponent's actions and coming up with like creative descriptions and consequences and things like that. So it's, it's a preference of mine to sort of have things. As soon as you realise something happens and try to minimise the amount of day, you had to roll to get some kind of result some

Snyder’s Return: 29:07

well, to sort of put this into practice. For those wanting to try the game out, and certainly I've done it and I'll be running it for a group when I can find time, which is always the challenge of finding time for things you enjoy. There is the woodland tune that's released alongside the sort of play test rules. It's got this wonderful artwork and a great little story behind it. Does that tie into the bigger narrative or is that purely standalone, you know, run it, have fun with it, try it out, enjoy it kind of thing.

Lucas Falk: 29:40

So one of the like, this is like a quick start, you can get going fast. Like they're a bit fewer character options. And like I think some of the rules may be a bit simplified. But with the Kickstarter we're trying to do Funding like a book that's not it's not going to be a large or thick book, but it's going to have some, some more character options and things like that. And it's also going to include like a readymade campaign you can play because this thing of for Dungeons and the woodland to miss the first adventure in that campaign is going to have some adjustments in the final game that we've sort of realised as we play tested, like it was gonna work even better or, and when, like the rest of the campaign was written with sort of added some things to add more of a through line through that. So so it's, it's like an introduction to the campaign that's going to be part of the full game.

Snyder’s Return: 30:52

Yeah, I love the map. Again, I recommend people one, follow the link I'll put down below towards the Kickstarter and wait for to be notified or click on it in support, or if there's laid back and you can maybe do that we'll find out about that in the future, I guess. But the map, while it looks, I think simplistic. It sounds harsh, but it is is so on point for the feel of the game you're trying to put across someone who will look at that and go, I know where that is, yes, I I can see the inspirations for that, that sort of jump off the page as it were

Lucas Falk: 31:31

happy to hear that. I think like you're saying it's in line with, like the aesthetics of the game in general. But another thing that I like we could have made it a bit more advanced. But I felt like the simpler we make the map, the simpler it is for someone else to create their own dungeon maps. That That seems like an official map. Because because one of my recent like peeves that sort of limiting in a lot of ways is you get all these great looking games with fantastic illustrations and everything looks awesome. And then, if you're a normal person, instead of a big company, you can't really create anything that looks official, you can like everything you create will look like a cheaper version or like a fan made version. And I think also Swedish game called the Merc Borea, which is an old school, like really visually strong, but also cleverly designed a lot of ways. They have like these really simple things that you can latch on to aesthetically. So everything is yellow, black, white, or hot pink, pretty much like the illustrations, some of them are just public domain art that you get for free. And some of them are pretty simple scrolls like Not really. I mean, they look great, but they are really evocative but not like the classic professional illustration, style. And then you have a bunch of different weird type faces. I think like the rule book has, I can remember it was 100 plus different typefaces, which is a big no no in design, in general, but But you want no remainder, it's brilliant, and he can do whatever he wants. But I think like you could do, Mark Borea done adventure. And then you can lay out it, you make it yellow, and like use a public domain, the illustrations are just scrawled something on a paper yourself, and then add a bunch of weird typefaces. And everyone will look at that and see like, oh, that belongs to my boy. And that's, that could be like almost an official adventure. And I think that adds to, like the joy of creating stuff for it. And I think at this point, they've had over 1000 like third party products made and a bunch of them have been Kickstarter. And I think that's lovely to sort of invite everyone else and make all the game masters and players more equal. So like the game designers, not the higher power just it's everything is really like flat hierarchies in Sweden. It's sort of like perhaps an extension of that like with everyone should be able to make the something that's valid game design. And I think like choosing to have a lot of simple illustrations, inheritance rules, and like the really simple map style makes it so that everyone can create a map that looks right and and is validated by the official things are more advanced than that.

Snyder’s Return: 35:00

And you mentioned there, as we sort of discussed the woodland tomb, it's part of a greater thing there is a narrative through line. So for those who have been captured by the nostalgic touches to the inspirations, or the, you know, the art style, or just the, maybe the, the, the, I won't say simplistic, but the the different gameplay mechanics that this game uses. What is the sort of the narrative side of the game? What is the world in which heroes of Surya inhabits? What's the story that we're sort of buying into effectively.

Lucas Falk: 35:36

So the story is pretty much straight Legend Zelda ripoff, but with his own sort of interpretation. And the thing is, like in all of the Legend of Zelda games, you're pretty much playing as the chosen one, and you're gonna save the world, and you're single character and things like that. So, so the heroes of psoralea world is built around, like the concept of there, there is a there are two chosen ones, which are continually reborn to save the world against evil force that is also reborn continually. And at the start of the game, the evil has been reborn, the Shadow King has returned to the land of Syria, and like, his monsters are harassing the residents and weird things are happening in forests, and lakes and mountains. And the chosen ones haven't been reborn yet, for some reason. So like, the, the world is a really bad place, and the chosen ones aren't there to help out. So it's sort of up to just regular civilians or like, good people to, to try to help out, even though they are the chosen ones. And the the idea is that maybe they can save the world, even though they are the chosen ones, or I was playtesting it and there was a discussion afterwards and the players right, maybe we weren't the chosen ones all along. Even though like there weren't any signs of it other than we defeated the evil so so Yeah, you like the Shadow King has taken over the kingdom and taken over the royal castle, and has sealed himself in there, while monsters are ravaging the countryside. And you sort of go into different dungeons and find items to help you and like, weaken the the seal around the castle, and then you might end up facing the shadow kingdom, and hopefully vanquishing him.

Snyder’s Return: 37:58

Nice. Nice. You mentioned that going into dungeons and finding things. One of the things I love about the, the ruleset and the games is keys. The way keys are used, I think is very well done for for a role playing game, I realise it is it is computer game, sort of based, but the way keys work is very fun.

Lucas Falk: 38:22

I mean, that's the thing, if you're playing a role playing game, you're sort of expected to be realistic in a lot of ways like simulation mystic, almost like it should work as the real world. But if you sit down to play a video game, that's not the case, you accept the limitations put on your like the the internal logic of the video game. So for example, with keys, you might like have a key, and then it works in pretty much every lock the dungeon, but when you use it, it disappears. And that's not how keys work. That's, that's really weird. And if you're thinking about it in a similar relation mystic way, then it doesn't make sense. But if you're sort of accepting the video game logic, then it makes total sense. And it's the same thing with like, it allows for different kinds of Dungeon design. Like if you're playing a more, let's say realistic game, and you have someone like who have fortified a dungeon to keep people out. Then you wouldn't go around like placing keys in chests to for people to find and you wouldn't put like the item that you're particularly vulnerable in a chest that where someone could reach it that doesn't daft. But this is this is like a video game logic. You could design dungeons like pretty much they're made for heroes to enter from the outside, explore, find things unlock areas, get to the end, and there's a boss at the end. And hopefully you found One item that that will help you defeat the boss. And it doesn't make sense at all, unless you sort of just accept that it's videogame logic, and then suddenly makes a lot of sense, because that's how a lot of video games are, are built. I love it. And also like with the MPCs, this game, they, they have one thing they want to talk about, and like, you can't really persuade him to talk about anything else. And that's also like, if you meet someone like that, in real life, you would think he was really weird. But if you're playing a computer game, and they keep, like saying the same thing over and over, they're just yeah, that's how video games work in a lot of ways. So I think that's part of like making a different kind of role playing experience that uses the strength of tabletop role playing games, we like a little bit more freedom to come up with creative ideas, and perhaps, like, portray your character a bit more and sometimes, like breaking the rules through creativity, and then also like, the experience of video games. That's not better than traditional role playing games, and just something different.

Snyder’s Return: 41:19

Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned there, the sort of having the the experience and something to help with the experience while playing a role playing game. Your your company has released traffic lights to assist with safety and calibration at the table. How important are those things to not just you, but the company and and to the community? Should we say,

Lucas Falk: 41:46

I think like, I've been playing with the same group for some, some of the people I've played with, for like 20 years at this point that we know each other really well. And we, we respect each other and we share a lot of values. And we've had some, like crumbles throughout the years that we've talked out. And, like, reach conclusions how to handle better. But then I've also gone to a lot of conventions and play with strangers. And, like, here's a through less, really light hearted game. And like it's not, I mean, I guess that could erase situations that are uncomfortable. But like, again, with the video game rules, you can't harm people, you can only harm monsters, and all monsters are evil in the horses are with a game so. So like it's not when monsters die, they just evaporate into dark energy. So it's not really like a violent game in the gory sense. But if you start playing like blood feud, which is a game about men acting really badly towards each other end like yeah, we made a horror game in Swedish as well, which had some scenarios with a really dark themes, which we, we tried to handle them and like respectfully, and not just for shock value. But still, like, as soon as you go into that territory, I think, especially if you go to conventions and play with people you don't know, you, you really have to make people feel safe. And you have to give them like effective tools to communicate so that everyone can stay safe. And I think that's really important. And the thing is, there are a lot of tools. Like the most famous one is the x card where you put like a piece of paper with an X on it in the middle of a table. And as soon as someone touches that you just stop playing and take a break, and then you try to, like avoid that scene, or perhaps you you go home and don't play it anymore at all, like you just stop playing, then it's it gets to be really dramatic. Like once you touch that it's a really strong statement that I did not enjoy this at all and I'm feeling like really, really bad about it. So I think that I think it's a good tool. It's better than nothing like it's like a stop button, like a break. But then it gets so dramatic that I think some people might not use it because they don't want to be overly dramatic. And so traffic lights was part of the game that my my colleague Peter designed was also had a lot of dark subjects and I was like yeah, that that game might be something but that tool you're using to communicate how you feel about what's going on, there's a story that's really good, we should make something separate out of that news in wargames. And so we did and that was traffic lights, which is sort of inspired by, by law, safety tools as well. But everyone gets a card. So it's closer to you, rather than having a big X in the middle of the table. And that your personal card, and there's a green side that you use to signal that everything is fine. So if you're portraying a character, that's like, having an emotional breakdown, you could like hold that card up simultaneously to sort of say, I'm not having a mental breakdown, my characterised and undefined, so you don't have to worry about me, I'm just acting. Or you could like someone, to other players are having a scene that you're really enjoying, instead of like saying, I really enjoy the scene keep keep up, you could sort of single the week, or like, I really like what you're doing right now. So they sort of get feedback without interrupting the scene. And then you have another site that sort of yellow they could use to signal I'm not, I don't like where this is going, I think we should like go in a different direction, then you can just put down the card, and that counts as like, stop that now we need to break but then you already have the card close to you, it's your card, you might have used it to signal and find whatever thing you might have used it to say, Well, I'm not liking where this is going. So using the card to stop the game is not really as dramatic, because you're sort of already used to using the card. Yeah, I think like the, the sign is good. But in practice, like every time we used it, everyone's always just use the green side, because we've talked about like, we need safety tools, we need to respect each other. This is how it works. Like you get people in a certain state of mind where they are a bit more respectful, because you have talked about safety tools before. And I think in general, the X Corps works the same, like the goal is not necessarily to use to use it often to stop the game. But it's a good conversation, like, you discuss how the safety tool works. And everyone knows it, then you sort of start thinking about respect for other players in a different way. So I think it's all safe to tools are good in a sense, but they don't, they can never replace conversations they can never do like, everything has to be based on respect for other people. In the end. It's always good to have some sort of way to talk about those things before you start playing, especially with strangers, or especially a games with sensitive or dark themes.

Snyder’s Return: 47:57

Absolutely. Absolutely. And yeah, you can pick those, the traffic light system up from from practice publishing, on their website. And again, there'll be a link to that in the description below this podcast. What's so going from making sure everybody's safe and comfortable moving a game forward in one way or another? Moving backfist publishing forward? Have you got things in the pipeline beyond he was absolutely, that you're able to sort of give us a brief insight to

Lucas Falk: 48:30

Yeah, with too much to do. But I think the next couple of things were planning as Peter is working on a game, like meant for the teachers and like, librarians and things like that people who want to run games for for youths, like young teenagers, pretty much. So it's sort of a beginner friendly game with a lot of tools for for the Game Master and some some fun mechanics for for the players. But like the focus is more on creative problem solving, rather than just combat and things like that. I think like that's, he's really been thinking about the target audience for that game in every aspect of design. So I think that's gonna be really helpful. At least in Sweden, we have a lot of like, yeah, libraries are doing a lot of like, getting into role playing games and then offering to to sort of like, I think the US is more local game stores are in charge of that. But I think it's a good introductory game, both for Game Masters and players and I'm working on English translation of the last Swedish game we released which is going to be called the wind soul. It's Pretty much like a traditional role playing game in the adventuring sense. But the game world is very non european centric, it takes a lot of inspiration from South America and Southeast Asia Polynesia. Like, since I'm Swedish, I've tried to handle all those inspirations with respect and not to. It's not like, it's not a mash of cultures, it's like two influences and love letters, two aspects of those cultures condensed into a setting that's just wanting to make something different than like all the grim dark, European fantasy. So it's really vibrant, optimistic, non non traditional fantasy, in a lot of ways. And yeah, the mechanics are focused very much on freedom and camaraderie and exploration of that world. So yeah, it's one of my, and like, everything's gonna have like watercolour illustrations. So that was my minor, the project closest to my heart, when we started the company. And so we did that in Swedish. And now we're translating it to English. And for once the second edition is going to be a lot more condensed than the first edition, because we, we've played tested it a lot since we released it, and we sort of found ways to make it even more effective. So. So yeah, looking forward to that a lot, though. Right now, a lot of focus is put on the heroes and through led to, like, make that the best possible game for for the ambitions that we have for it.

Snyder’s Return: 51:56

Yeah, of course, of course. Well, I guess, two final questions. For me in that respect. For a master of running, he was absolutely do you have any tips for them to give a good gaming experience from your own playtesting experience? Yeah,

Lucas Falk: 52:16

I think, like really embracing the video game logic aspects, like if you if you go into it, thinking like, you're gonna play game author, traditional role playing game, then probably a lot of things are going to be weird. And the experience might end up like a regular game only with more limitations. But I think if you really lean into the video game aspects, and think, think of it as a video game, rather than a role playing game. I think you're gonna give everyone a better time, and you're gonna have a better time as well. But also, like, at the same time, like the paradoxically say, just yes to the players IDs and try to like, find solutions. So So yeah, it's a bit of a contradicting advice, embrace the video game logic, but also embrace the player IDs and creativity. I think less than you're all going to have a good time.

Snyder’s Return: 53:20

And final one, technically, I've always had got an extra question. There's always a question. You know, we've spoken about a lot of stuff during the course of this interview. Is there anything that you want to bring up that we haven't touched on? As yet?

Lucas Falk: 53:35

I have talked a lot. I think it's really nice that I got to came on, come on here and talk to you. And I think it's always, like, a lot of the questions that you asked are things that maybe I haven't thought of earlier and sort of have to think back on, as we speak. And I think that's really helpful to me as a game designer to get sort of questions from, from out from the outside and to sort of reflect on why did I decide to do it that way? Yeah. So So I appreciate it a lot. Thanks.

Snyder’s Return: 54:13

What, I'd love to get you back. Once again, depending on when you're listening to this, once it's been funded and and released to backers and things like that, or when this translation project for the the non sort of Euro traditional fantasy game sort of is translated into English love to get you or another member of the team back on the show for an interview in the future, if you'd be willing.

Lucas Falk: 54:43

Absolutely. I would love to.

Snyder’s Return: 54:46

Lucas, thanks so much for giving me some of your precious time out of your, your evening after. It's been a real pleasure. And all I can say is thank you so much for joining me.

Lucas Falk: 54:56

Right back at you. Thank you.

Snyder’s Return: 54:57

Thank you Thanks for listening. If you'd like to learn more about the show, then go to www dot Snyder’s return.squarespace.com. Alternatively, you can find us over on Twitter. At return Snyder, you have a link tree link in the description of this episode. And if you want to support us, come and join us over on Patreon and we also have a Discord server. Please leave us a review because we'd love to learn how to improve the channel and provide better content out for for those who are listening until we until we speak again. Thank you