Hello and welcome to Snyder’s return a tabletop roleplay podcast. My guests today are authors, talkers, podcasters and Dungeon masters. Like majors from the shoreline. They join me today to discuss the matters of the chromatic metallic add of massive mediaeval towers like beacons of hope they burn bright their words or warmth to our ears because of their passion, compassion, a familiar familiarity with the TTRPG community. Here to talk about settings, scheduling, Storm wrecks, starter sets, and to borrow from Optimus Prime till all our one. Our dungeon talk hosts purveyor of irreverence, Shelley has an oval and looking to engage with the next generation. Mr. Greg, Tito is an absolute pleasure to welcome you both to the show. Oh, wow.
Greg Tito:Amazing that the pun tastic mess of this intro. Oh,
Shelly Mazzanoble:my goodness, this is amazing. Thank you for having us.
Snyder’s Return:No, it's an absolute pleasure. It's it's a real boon for me to have you on the show I've listened to Dragon talk for we'll get to that. We will get on to that. However, starting starting from point zero. And I will let you sort of choose which of you two answers this first, but how did each of you get into tabletop role playing games, please do I
Greg Tito:go first? Okay, nominate me.
Shelly Mazzanoble:Now I'll go I'll go because it's my story is my employer made me play at my employer happened at the time to be and still is Wizards of the Coast. But yeah, I didn't play d&d growing up. And I am still very bitter that my parents did not find me a d&d group because it would have been really good for me. But I am also a firm believer that you don't choose when to play d&d d&d chooses when it's time for you to play d&d. So for me, it was as a full grown working adult, I got a job in the publishing department at Wizards of the Coast after being at the company for probably around six years or so. But I was working on every other brand except d&d. And I got my dream job in the publishing department. I was so excited to be working on novels and kids books. And that's when my boss was like, Oh, you don't you don't actually know how to play d&d, but you think you can help market the books to d&d players. Maybe it's time for you to learn. I hit it as long as I could. But I did join my first game. And by the time the, the Dungeon Master obviously had to help me roll up my first character, it was 3.5 addition. And I had no idea what was happening. There was just so much dice rolling so much math. I don't know why it took so long. But I was like, Oh, my God, what am I gotten myself into. But by the time he finished rolling up that character, I was like, I actually think I quite like this game, because I've always had a lot of imaginary friends. And this d&d character is essentially a really cool, imaginary, magical, spell slinging version of who I would like to be. And the rest was history. I realised I have been such a fool to turn my back on this game for so long, especially when it was literally at my fingertips. But we're here now. And I love it.
Snyder’s Return:So me Oh, and yourself, Greg, please. I have a
Greg Tito:slightly different story. But I did come to it really, as an adult, like Shelley did. So I loved fantasy when I was a kid. The animated serie movie by Rankin bass of The Hobbit was my first kind of foray into loving this type of storytelling. My brother at the time told me about the book that he was reading The Hobbit and how there weren't there were parts in the book that weren't in the animated series. And I was like, Well, I can go read that book. You know, third grade, fourth grade, I started reading The Hobbit and I just started devouring all fantasy books from there and one of them was a dungeon master's guide that was on my brother's shelf, we, I think determined it came from a hand me down from a neighbour was one of the only reasons it came into our possession. Because my parents were Catholic, still are Catholic. And this was the devil's game in the 1980s and they did not really encourage me to play as much as possible in fact, ended up being about like pulling teeth trying to get me to go having to drive me to go and play so I didn't play a lot I played a couple of times. It really wasn't anytime you know any any regular playing of d&d, but I love reading about it. I love the manuals when it I could pick them up and pour over the stats and why they look the way you know why certain characters were the way they were. And this whole kind of simulated world. I loved all that because it was like, Oh, I can be in the fantasy novels that I love so much. Fast forward to, you know, I went to school, I got married, I moved to New York City. And then I had a thought of like, well, wait a second, I can play d&d. Now I can make my own decisions. I am a full adult. And so you know, the Internet was somewhat new, but I was able to find like minded people in New York City, which, you know, doesn't surprise anyone. There are a lot of people there. So of course, there are a fair number of d&d players even back in 2003, or 2004. Whenever this was found a group ventually played through an entire campaign, the age of worms campaign from Dungeon magazine, also in a 3.5 era. And from then I was hooked. I just loved the amount of storytelling and camaraderie that this group had, and, you know, fell into writing about T RPGs. In and even writing some material for third party, folks like Goodman games in the fourth edition era. I think that was the real reason why I got hired to be a game journalist at The Escapist because of my d&d Cred really impressed the publisher there, and started writing about video games, which is another passion of mine, but I was always trying to steer towards writing more about tabletop and Dungeons and Dragons specifically, and got some notoriety there. And then eventually started working at wizards and was able to, kind of for you know, bring all that love of fantasy and storytelling that can come from Dungeons and Dragons, and you know, tell the world about it. And then all of a sudden, Shelly asked me to be on an episode of the official dungeon dragons podcast at the time was not called Dragon talk. And I was like, Hey, I know how to do podcasts. I did them. You know, when I was a game journalist at The Escapist and started just being like, maybe we should do some things like this and have a more regular schedule, and maybe we should name it. And maybe we should have, you know, some guests that are a little bit beyond the building, even though what wizards provided was amazing, be able to be able to talk to the people who are making the game happen was like, let's, let's see if we can get out the idea that you don't have to be what people thought of as the stereotypical d&d player to get something out of this game. And by inviting people from all walks of life, to talk about their experiences in Dungeons and Dragons in tabletop role playing, it just expanded that web of people who are like maybe I want to try that maybe I want to play that game to people who are playing, and then just, you know, the snowballing of the audience in the community that we've seen in the last few years, all kind of stemmed from from me and Shelley, I'm just gonna say it was really just,
Snyder’s Return:you know, the, sort of the progenitors of this whole movement. That's, that's what that's that's the tagline. Now we're going to. So you, you both sort of had to become adults to sort of almost become in touch with your inner child, again, sort of free for your sort of creative selves in that sense. Since sort of coming together at wizards and doing the podcast, what have been some of the most special interviews you've done, and how have you seen the game progress, as you have done more and more of these interviews?
Greg Tito:I think, one of the specialist interviews and one that had a big impact on me was when it was actually Bart, and I actually wasn't on this episode, but it was me and bar spoke to Tanya to pass, who was a gamer who I followed for a long time in the game journalism sense. And she was a Twitch streamer, and she just happened to live stream or live tweet a panel that Jeremy Crawford was on about dungeons of dragons, and I had no idea that she was a d&d fan. So I was like, Oh, why don't you come on and talk about your d&d experiences on Dragon talk and how it pertains to, you know, our shared love of Dragon Age and other you know, computer RPGs out there. And she graciously accepted the invite to be on and through discussing with her her experiences and how different they were to mine being a person of African descent in the video game world as well as the d&d world and how she experienced different parts of the lore. It really did open a doorway into my brain as to like wow, I this is very different from my experience, and I don't want to be a part of any group that puts up those those roadblocks or prevents people like Tonya getting just as much, you know, excitement and pleasure out of playing this game, that that, you know, all the people that I played with over the years had also received. And then I had this one little weird epiphany where it was like, well, we Actually, I can do something that can change that a little bit. Right was so it was spurred by that as well as the idea that like during things like, like Black History Month or things that are like holiday based, you know, I think some of the people who experience getting highlighted during those things are saying like, Well, what happens the other 11 months of the year, like what happens, you know, after these, these celebrations happen, and so I just made a point to be like, I'm going to invite as many people of colour people from different backgrounds, people who you wouldn't necessarily think of as the, you know, the nerdy white suburban kid playing in their basements, in the 80s and 70s. And show that there is this huge amount of people out there who play Dungeons and Dragons, it doesn't matter about the colour of their skin, or where they came from, or what country they live in, everybody can get something out of this game, because it taps into like a human quality, or our need to commune and tell stories together was in some ways, what made us human at all, you know, back in prehistory time, right, gathering around a fire, telling the tales of the day is no different in my mind than getting around a table and rolling dice and, and slaying the monsters together as a group. And so, in talking to Tanya it was it was, you know, the the conversation certainly went to some really challenging areas, and I felt myself just having a little bit of a, I guess I had an epiphany, just be like, Ah, well, I can do something and change my little small corner of the world to be a little bit better and more inclusive. And it has, I think, made the d&d community a much better place. So you've seen it open up into so many different types of people from from marginalised groups like LGBTQ A eyes to you know, to the all the wonderful creators who contributed to journeys through the radiant Citadel and how they were able to tell their stories from from folklore and cultures that had not been as highlighted in dungeons of dragons before so yeah, that that to me, I think was one that was really a read Elena was really great to have Tanya she'd become a friend, we talk quite often and she was able to read Welcome to Dragon talk our book and offer insight and, you know, really kind of allow, you know, it's there is there's there's more storytelling to be told when you have more people at the table.
Snyder’s Return:Absolutely. hunterson. And surely have you had an interview where you were present? Because if you weren't, you wouldn't be present? Where you have had an epiphany, a deeper response or an understanding or just a fantastic guest be for the humour or other aspects nationally adjuster?
Shelly Mazzanoble:Yeah, I mean, there's, there's so many I can think of six right off the top of my head that stood out, which is exactly how this book ended up getting written because there were so many just memorable guests that resonated with Greg and I and in different ways. I think, overall, one of the coolest parts about Dragon talk is that Dean, it shows that d&d is this great equaliser, and that there are people whose paths we may never have crossed. And yet we have d&d in common. And so we can just sit and talk about how much we love playing Warlocks together or anything about d&d, like we had a conversation with Emily Axford, who is an actress and was in one of my favourite TV shows, and I was super geeked out talking to her but like, I wouldn't talk to her in real life, probably our paths would not cross and yet here we are just being really nerdy together talking about Dungeons and Dragons. Amazing. But there were definitely some that stood out because I have a type when it comes to people doing amazing things in the d&d community. And I would say Kade Wells was one of them. We interviewed him. It was like 10 years ago, maybe. But he was one of the first people that was really taught, explaining to us the power of Dungeons and Dragons with kids, and how he's he's a teacher, and he has used d&d in his classroom, and has seen these tremendous results where like, everything from kids on the football team and Texas are like, the coaches like, well, you have to just take an English class you have to, and they're totally disengaged, until he had them rolling dice and creating characters and simulating battles in class. And they, their minds just opened right up to like very troubled use that didn't have real any guidance that lacked. It didn't have a great home life didn't have a lot of hope. They found their community in d&d, and Kade has said several times that d&d saved his life. And he has seen he's passing that on basically. So that to me really ignited something in myself of this game is it's more than just a game. This game is truly impacting people's lives in incredibly positive ways. And it gives you it does give you that community it does help you build these lasting friendships. It does teach you empathy, it does teach you collaboration, it just gives you that social connection that some people are truly lacking. And it's, it's, it cannot be understated. It's so important in that we're not just making you know, entertainment here, like people's lives are truly being impacted. And it's hard for us to see that and know that on and Kade really made that feel very present to me. And then we've talked since to several therapists, the the atoms from game to grow, they have they're doing amazing things as you know, therapists using d&d and teaching kids social skills that way, too. Dr. Meghan Connell, who is also a therapist and actually runs d&d groups for her. Her younger patients, including an all girl group, where these girls were learning things like how to stand up for themselves, how female friendship, how to stand up for your female friends, and not be competitive and not try to tear each other down. But like d&d was teaching them these life skills that are really hard to teach people, but it was also giving them self confidence. And like, what better thing can you give a kid. And so the passion that I have is bringing d&d to to not just more people, I think everybody should be playing Dungeons and Dragons. But I really, really want to see more kids playing it. And so that's part of that is the impetus for like pushing so hard to get a school programme for Dungeons and Dragons and getting re getting those after school club kits back out there. So that people have the tools to start a club at their school or their library or their Girl Scout headquarters, like wherever, wherever kids are gathering, like, Let's get them playing Dungeons and Dragons, because it really does. It's appealing to them still, like they, they hear the words Dungeons and Dragons, and they're like, hand me a sword I'm in I'm in. But it's truly, truly awakening. And just in the most beautiful way to see a kid, get it like that, just that moment where you're playing with them. And they're like, oh, wow, I can do anything. I can try anything. I can be a hero. And I've got this party with me. And we're all supporting each other. And it's just, it's, it's really amazing. And so I'm just a big giant geek when it comes to get those kids playing d&d. I just want them all, all out there being exposed to this game and all the wonderful things that can do for them.
Snyder’s Return:building bonds over polyhedral dice. It's where it happens.
Greg Tito:And it is funny to think how much that did start with that interview with Kate, I don't think either of us were really aware of how much that one conversation would you know, fuel like seven years of us trying to, to develop a educational programme? And it was yeah, it was really eye opening. And then we talked about it here in this book. Welcome to Dragon talk about about that that moment. And for everybody?
Snyder’s Return:Well, I was gonna say you've given to two of your own children. And of course your your interview with Tony mentioned before, Greg, of how these interviews have touched you and and sort of resonated with you. And if someone has some time, maybe away from the headphones, the screens and things. And they want the same insight from these interviews. You mentioned the book a couple of times, would you mind sort of taking us into a bit more of what I know you have the manuscript with you, Greg showed it to me before, would you mind sort of give us an insight into what we can expect from the book, maybe drop a couple of names so people can sort of really build that intrigue and excitement for this when it gets released in late 22, please?
Greg Tito:Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, Shelley and I, as you said, we got more than 300 episodes of Dragon Talk where we have interviewed people from all over the d&d diaspora. And we, actually with Shelley, who pitched this idea of what if we wrote a book that would combine a lot of these learnings that we've talked about over you know, these those those two example interviews that we just said, and showed off what was what we've learned from from that community? And so yeah, that's really what what Welcome to Dragon talk is all about right. And it's summed up really well in the subtitle which I'm going to read which is a very long subtitle, but it's Welcome to Dragon talk inspiring conversations about done To the dragons and the people who love to play it. And we start off with a pretty off, you know, casual conversation between me and Shelly about what Dungeons Dragons is we didn't want to alienate anybody who may not be super entrenched in the d&d community who might want to, you know, pick this up and learn about it for the first time. There's a sort of introductory about, you know, both of our backgrounds. So thank you for asking us about our our first foray into d&d because we definitely go into that in this book, as well as how we met and how we started this wonderful podcast and what it meant for us. And then we dove into I think, 29 essays that centre around each of the guests that we selected to kind of talk about so some are written by Shelley, some are written by me, we quote each other pretty liberally throughout, there was one version of this manuscript where we actually had footnotes, making jokes to each other, as it was going on, which, which I really loved. And it was really just a way for us to keep that energy of a podcast in prose form, which was really great. But yeah, you know, I, we talked to Devin Rue, who is a cartographer, a fantasy cartographer, who has created an entire, you know, kind of persona around online and the maps that she creates, and I really talked about how maps are a great portal and a huge component of why I love Dungeons and Dragons, I feel like they are, I don't really believe in magic, but if there is a magic out there, it is maps because they are the one thing that makes us feel just like the characters that we are pretending to be in d&d, looking at a physical object are our, you know, players are doing that. And our characters are doing that. It's one of the few times in which a lot of the pretence and artifice of playing d&d can fall away and we can be fully immersed in it and that is a magical thing to be. And Devin Rue kind of creates that with hers. We talked to the amazing Rainn Wilson was one of our first interviews. He was in the office and he dropped in this interview that his time playing Dungeons and Dragons in the Pacific Northwest informed a lot of how he brought the character of Dwight Schrute to life, which we just really loved it like yeah, d&d inspired the office like no one would think of that. But you know, we were able to talk about it with him. And it's, it's all detailed in this book. Shelley is able to talk to Dan Harmon, the creator of community, which has created so many amazing references to Dungeons and Dragons, as well as the two episodes that are very much focused on his history and love of that game. It's a wonderful interview and a great essay. JOE MANGANIELLO is in there, of course, because we get to talk to him a lot about his love of d&d, we It starts off with Matthew Lillard who has been a really great proponent of everything around the fun of Dungeons Dragons. I love learning from him that he started playing back in the early 90s with his gaming group, and he's still working and playing with him to this day, which I just love. So many of the people we talked to formed relationships that have lasted decades and is still a vital part of their lives today. We even have politicians we have secretary of state from Washington. Steve Hobbs, who is you know, a lot of that is just about him pitching to us wanting to be on Dragon talk, because he was a fan. And we're like, that doesn't make any sense. You're a real politician. You do real things for real people. And you also have this love of d&d and the fantasy life and he's a true Oh, wonder there. And of course Deborah and wall Christina Arielle Xander generat so many amazing folks that you know and love from the d&d community who become streamers or podcasters in their own right. A lot of them I wouldn't say get their start on Dungeons Dragons, although I will say be Dave Walters is always the first person to say that if it wasn't for us inviting men on Dragon talk and being a part of this d&d community that he wouldn't have any of the career that he has now and so a lot of that is about shining a light on different parts of of this community and we wanted to write a little bit of essays about each of them and how it all worked out Did I miss any there are there's there's a lot of people that we talked to but that was
Snyder’s Return:some some definite inspirations. Regardless of where you are on any spectrums, or ranges or backgrounds or, or what you want to do in the hobby. There was someone there for you to take inspiration from that sounds like an amazing book and something I will earmark to pick up when it comes out. When is it good to come out? Just do it. Gradually,
Shelly Mazzanoble:December 5 is its official release date, but we have it on good authority. If you preorder the book from the University of Iowa Press website. You might get it early or actually anywhere. I think you might get it early. Yeah, which is kind of bananas but just see what happens preorder it and to see if that's true.
Snyder’s Return:Well when it becomes available for free ought to scroll down, check out the links available as well. There you go, I will find them put that link in the description below this podcast. Speaking of things that will be in the description below this podcast, work me find each of you on social media please surely if you would like,
Shelly Mazzanoble:I can be found on twitter and instagram at Shelly Mo.
Greg Tito:And I'm at Gregg Tito on Twitter and Greg underscore Tito on Instagram. And I won't plug everything I'm working on right now. But that's that's where you can find all the stuff from what we're doing, as well as all the amazing, you know, stuff that we're going on with hosting dragon talk as well as talking to folks around this book. Links to
Snyder’s Return:all of those will be in this description box podcast viscose, scroll down support each of these wonderful content creators and other content creators. We have mentioned. And I'm sure we'll mention, as we move forward through this interview. Actually, this isn't the first book with a very long subtitle, a couple of others
Shelly Mazzanoble:are very observant.
Snyder’s Return:So what is the writing side of this been like coming into the hobby, as you mentioned, from the publishing wing working for wizards, and using now three books, including this one, but the two beforehand,
Shelly Mazzanoble:you know, I always fancied myself a writer. However, if you told me I don't know, 20 years ago, that, Oh, yeah, you'll publish books that are going to be about Dungeons and Dragons, I would be like, Oh, my hell now. Never, not a chance. But again, after that first time playing d&d, I was so moved by it, I thought, if I have thought of myself, as someone who wouldn't enjoy this game, and was so incredibly wrong, there are more of me out there. This game must reach more people I have to get to those people, especially women, because again, female friendships are so important to me and to a lot of women. But it's also, you know, like it's hard to it can be hard sometimes to be a woman and to find that support and feel empowered in different situations. And, you know, I never feel more empowered than I am playing Dungeons and Dragons. Right before this interview, I was playing Dungeons and Dragons. As it turns out, I was playing in my spell jammer campaign as a plasmoid Warlock. And my best friend in the game is breaking and she like our characters are best friends, and she got very, very gravely injured, and I should have gotten saved myself and went up a rope and back onto the or rope ladder and back onto the Spelljammer. But I'm like, well, obviously not leaving her. I'm and it was a how do you pronounce bullet? Bullet? Bullet bullet? How do you pronounce Boulais? How do you pronounce it? Everybody says a different. Chris. Chris Lindsey today said bullet, like bullet but like with a little extra emphasis. So anyway, that's who we were fighting to have them. And Chris said, yeah, he said, you know, the bullet is right next to her. Like, I know, I know. And then I ended up getting hit dropped to zero hit points. And I didn't care because I was right there. I was right. I had to stay with my best friend and hold her hand. She was very, very sick. And then they ended up putting me in a bucket because I am just a pile of goo as a plasmoid. And like and hauling me back up. It ended up being okay. But it was like, again, there was like five people all helping an end gate like heal this person and put this one in a bucket and then use your action to like all our backup on the ship. It was it's what I love about d&d. It's like we're all just working and like I even said to someone like don't waste your action trying to help me up the rope and they're like, I'm not wasting my action. I'm saving your life here. So important action. It's a very important I boom, like I know, you probably just want to do something cooler. Like you know, I don't know, I'll cast some cool spell but instead you're holding this bucket of goo. The deck of a spell jammer also pretty cool. So yes, who doesn't want to be part of this? You don't like if I never thought that I was a fantasy fan. But I don't think you have to be because there is a d&d world for anyone. Like you can dial it up. You can dial it down. You can play a modern day version of d&d, you can do anything you can play a horror version. I have plenty of friends that love horror, but they are not necessarily Fantasy fans will drop them into Ravenloft or something. There's literally something for everyone here to enjoy. So I actually don't remember what your question was. Oh, something about
Snyder’s Return:the books. Yeah, but this was fun. This is far better.
Shelly Mazzanoble:Thank you. Thank you very much. Yes. Anyway, that's why I wrote the first book, Confessions of a part time sorceress subtitle, a Girl's Guide to the Dungeons and Dragons role playing game. And yeah, I can't believe I did that. But I did.
Snyder’s Return:And your second book did you go from self help to elf help.
Shelly Mazzanoble:Because again, trying to get to the heart of what it is about this game that is so incredibly powerful and so meaningful and so important to so many people. I, you know, obviously we work with a lot of people who love Dungeons and Dragons and have played it since they were children. And they, they never lost that passion. Even if you stop playing it for whatever reason, you still love d&d, like you will still reflect on that time of your life, when you were playing, and you were having the best time of your life. And oh my gosh, I'm still friends with those four kids after that one summer 1984 When we spent just in the basement playing Dungeons of dragons, I think that's a mazing. I think there is just something, I just want to know what it is about this game that holds people forever. It just really makes those meaningful memories. And so the second book, everything I need to know, I learned from Dungeons and Dragons. Oh, what is that subtitle a one? One woman's quest to trade, Self Help for self help. I think that's what it was. Yeah. So that was really that's a collection of essays where I tried to take various parts of Dungeons and Dragons and apply them to my real world and see if I will become a better person. I like to think I have. I think you have well, thanks.
Snyder’s Return:Endorsement indeed. Think question four. I bounce across to you, Greg. Surely does your plasmoid Warlock have a name?
Shelly Mazzanoble:Indeed. Her name is Jelly goo. Kind of got it like Shelly mo jelly goo. Have it. So I was born to play a plasmoid.
Greg Tito:I love that you had to explain that.
Shelly Mazzanoble:I can't read Adam. I can't tell if he's like that's a dumb name. Or if he was like, super clever.
Snyder’s Return:I was very happy with the I was very I've written it down just to make sure I get to mention,
Shelly Mazzanoble:and Chris Lindsey today when I was getting attacked. He was like, I think everyone could agree there's always room for jello. Come on, jerk. Yeah. And then I was almost killed.
Snyder’s Return:Was it into the bucket with squeegees and sponges, or were they slightly more sort of gentle with you?
Shelly Mazzanoble:I think they were more gentle. But they were very rushed.
Snyder’s Return:Fair enough. So moving from a plasmoid Warlock stepping over the DM screen to you, Greg, you are currently DMing the latest starter set release. Make sure I get this right dragons of storm wreck I'll How is that? Obviously spoiler free, because you know, to home game and things like that. But how? How have you found the new starter set? And how is your adventure through this module going?
Greg Tito:It's going really well. I love anytime I get to open up one of DMDs products in front of my daughters. They're nine and 11. And they have that, you know childlike Glee, checking out miniatures or new books, just like I do, right, like being able to crack it open. And so we got the dragons of storm rec aisle last weekend, and we were talking about doing a session anyway, with one of my daughter's friends. They've known each other for a really long time used to be neighbours. And he had recently got a friend who was interested in playing. And so he was just hanging out. And I just happen to have this thing. And I cracked it open. And it is a literal starter set. So I was like, Do you guys want to start playing like we can we can just do it. We've got all the tools right here. And there was a moment of like, Yeah, let's let's start. And so it was almost impromptu where we were going to start. Tomorrow is actually when our first official session is. But it was really nice to just begin with their understanding of that first encounter and picking up some of the ways that the rules were and I love introducing Dungeons and Dragons to kids who have not played before, because they actually was talking about that moment of, oh, I can do anything I want. And you're gonna have to react to me. It's such an empowering thing, not only for adults when we experience it, but for kids, because so much of their lives is like no, you can't do that. Right? So much of it is like you must follow the rules and get in line or you know, play the way you're supposed to play that the recess monitor says you have to play and this is very much a like, oh free, you know, do what you can do. Obviously, here's some guidelines. Here's some ways to you know, more effectively do what you need to do to help your players out and maybe get a bucket and get your jelly together. And it went really great. Like my daughter, my youngest daughter, I'll let you know just hasn't enjoyed when I've tried to introduce d&d to her in the past as much because she is very, has a really active imagination and honestly, I think she's a dungeon And Master, you know, in training, I just want to get her a little bit more familiar with how to work with other people before I kind of just be Oh, yeah, sure you're the Dungeon Master. But I think in a few years, she is going to be the person who's running the games for all of her friends. And this was the first time I think that she really latched on to being a player and succeeding. The few times we played in the past, you know, obviously, not every dice roll works out the way you want it to. And she got very frustrated with wanting to do something cool. And then not being able to because of rolling a one or something like that. But in this particular instance, the dice were in her favour, she rolled a couple of 20s. And so having a few critical hits, which were really important for that first encounter, because the Drowned soldiers that you're fighting need to have a critical hit or radiant damage in order to not bounce or not have the chance to bounce back up later on. And so explaining all that having her kind of be the hero and heroine at this session with her best friend who was showing a lot of interest in wanting to learn about the game and being a little bit nervous, necessarily, but just like trepidatious about like, what how do I play this? I don't know. So she got to be the master a little bit, she got to show her her mastery of playing. And again, that is just what something like dungeon dragons is able to do. So I'm excited to introduce one more kid I have not met. There's one more, you know, newbie to d&d, but I can't wait to have that wide eyed moment of just being able to do whatever they can do. And I think dragons of stone and Mikhail is a really good intro because it gives you those character sheets that are pre made. Honestly, the experience that Shelley was describing, making her first character in 3.5 can slow down that that that first session, sometimes where people just want to roll dice and just want to experience what d&d is, oh, but you have to make a character first. Sometimes the process of making a character can just add a little bit of swappiness to that first thing. And so what I like about the starter set is that it just gives you the ability to here's the sheet, I'll tell you what this all means it's explained and you know, pretty, you know, naturalised English on there how to make it happen. But I'll be there to explain it. And we just, you know, got got rolling dice right away. And I think it's just going to continue going from there. That's amazing.
Shelly Mazzanoble:You know what kids are really good at sorry, yeah,
Snyder’s Return:no, no, you carry on what our kids
Greg Tito:were used to being the protesters.
Snyder’s Return:Forecasters here, good. Luck is really good.
Shelly Mazzanoble:They're really good at failure when they play d&d, and not in real life, oh, God, not in real life at all. But if they don't make a hit, or if they roll a one, and you make it kind of funny, they love it, they love it almost more than actually hitting like, my son will get up and show you exactly what happened when he his attack didn't hit its target. And he'll he'll act it all out just to make everybody laugh. And they, that's another really amazing thing that you can learn from this game is just how to take defeat or just off simple failure and turn it around into something don't Don't be defeated by a single failure.
Snyder’s Return:Well, your point and and sort of building off of what you were saying there there, Greg sort of leads on to my next question, which is effectively given your experiences respective experiences, both in front of and behind the screen, if someone is trying to introduce maybe the children as you have mentioned there, Greg, or you have surely or even just friends, work colleagues and things. What advice would you give to someone looking to sort of become that dungeon master and really sort of encourage play? I, the more I've, the longer I played on the more I played, the longer I played, the more of a fan of pre gens I become, as you mentioned, Greg, it's a quick way to get into the game and things like that. But what about dungeon master techniques and tips? Just just one or two to help people sort of take that first step down a very precarious road
Greg Tito:you've been learning a lot shall you by all segments
Shelly Mazzanoble:I have been learning a lot some of the best dungeon masters in our community have given me great advice as Greg said on the how to DM segment on Dragon talk. It's so I had a not great experience and then took like a decade off of Dungeon mastering scared to go back. But then those kids brought me back so my The best thing is, do something published like you don't have to start from scratch. Just find a fun published adventure. Don't over prepare. That is the best thing you can do because it's never gonna go the way you think it is. You can read it of course and just maybe earmark the stat blocks you need but don't over prepare, just be open and excited to see what they're gonna do. And don't worry if you don't know rules because chances are they don't either number one, but also it's the we always say this and the best The most important rule is to have fun. So if it makes the game fun, just go with it. Just go with whatever. You don't know how to do a saving throw, just roll some dice, just get a number in your head that you're like, this seems fair, and just just roll the dice just do it. So rule of cool it up. And don't over prepare, and don't worry if it doesn't go your way. Because then that's, that means you're playing it correctly.
Snyder’s Return:Greg, what about yourself?
Greg Tito:I mean, everything Shelly said, I think I have building on that, I would say that my secret sauce with dungeon mastering is to describe what the senses are feeling, you know, kind of out out of the gate, right? Like so that it's not necessarily, oh, I swing my sword, I do X damage, move on to the next turn. You know, you want to give that fantasy of what it's like to be a in a cinematic fight or a cinematic scene. And so it doesn't take a lot of time. I think that's another thing that people when when they get that advice, they're like, Whoa, how do I do that, but it's just simple as be like, Oh, you hear birds chirping, you smell the spray of the waves as they're coming towards you in the sand underneath your feet is soft, and making like little crunching sounds as you're going forward. And like just those small little details are enough to be like, Okay, I feel like I'm in a setting now and not in the basement or you know, wherever you're around the table that you are currently playing as like it just gives a little bit for and then I also really like to give new players especially that ability to describe it. The surroundings as well. It's not just a dungeon master who can do that if there is a failed role or a successful role, or sometimes just being able to knock out one of the adversaries that they're fighting. Just I like to give the power to them just be like, What do I describe? What do you look like? How did it feel? What did it sound like when you vanquished that Goblin and smash that zombie against the wall or not? Maybe they don't scratch against the wall. And it's give them you know, that little bit of storytelling freedom. And that's another eye opening moment where they're like, Well wait, I can do what you were just doing. Like I can paint the picture just like you're painting. And that shared storytelling is What is what d&d is all about. And doing those, like really simple things early on, can set the tone for how your entire session or campaign is going to be with those with those new players.
Snyder’s Return:So yeah, build the emotions for the cinematic, not the mechanic effectively.
Shelly Mazzanoble:I learned that from Greg, which I loved seeing him do when we were playing with some new people when he asked because I think sometimes new people also don't know how to roleplay or they don't know how much they should roleplay? Or what does roleplay even really look like or sound like or what should I do? Or they could be intimidated by it? Or embarrassed but somebody had cast a spell. And Greg asked the, that that player, what does that look like when you cast that spell, and she got to describe it. But that immediately, like, pulled her in to the story. And it was it was a really gentle way of encouraging someone to like own their character and kind of get into the role playing a little bit. I thought it was really clever and it's it works really well with kids because they love to describe the damage and the spell and everything.
Snyder’s Return:So we've mentioned there about sort of building the immersion, mentioned about running published sources to help with dungeon mastering and things like that. So to each of you. Do you have a favourite setting? I'll caveat with this. Mine is ever since I O rising from the last one that was my first my first setting. Everyone is just hands down my favourite setting. But what about yourselves? What setting if someone was to say like, we're going to play a game tomorrow, grab a book, which book are you going for?
Shelly Mazzanoble:I can I can answer this because I am going to be playing next next weekend with a family brand new to d&d and the first book that I thought of was the wild beyond the witch like I think the Feywild is so cool. And I think it's such a wonderful setting in that literally anything can happen. It also provides a lot of more there's more story hooks in there that I feel like somebody new to d&d can grab onto because it's you can just really go for the fairytale angle and but there's also just like you can have you can have as much or as little as you want in the Feywild and it's and I love the wild beyond the witch lay because I think starting your first d&d experience at a carnival is really cool. And in all of the NPCs in that book are just amazing. There's so much cool stuff you can do with the carnival, you could just spend your whole entire time just playing carnival games, or you can like sneak them off into the Fae wild. So it was like I'm very inspired by that book and I always was even from hearing it described to me for the first time so I'm excited to get a chance to actually DM it
Snyder’s Return:Wow, have fun with that. And thank you, Greg,
Greg Tito:I mean, similar to the, the first experience you have is sometimes the one that you kind of latch on to the most. So I can't really say anything else than grey Hawk, because the age of worms campaign that really opened up my eyes to this, this Dungeons and Dragons lore is something that I have always latched on to and I really enjoyed. And then, you know, of course, those those when I was reading the books back in the 80s, and 90s, that was the implied setting that was always there, too. So like I loved, you know, delving into all that through those things. So I think that's like going to always have a soft spot in my heart, even though there's not too much there. They're like, there's great, there's a lot of great glory. But and I love that it was just this, this hint of there being something that you could add on to. And so like my second favourite, which is the one that I'm really kind of fascinated and exploring more now is the radiant Citadel, I really think that is such a wonderful way to build for a dungeon master, right? Like it shows a lot, it gives you all the tools you need for these for these little mini shard worlds that you can visit from the hub of the radiant citadel. And I just love it, it's built in with this idea that there are more to explore. And so as a writer and a dungeon master who loves to create their own worlds, like I do, because I was gonna I was gonna do a cop out and just say it's my world is my thing. But as far as published ones go, I think radiant Citadel does a really, really good job similar to grey Hawk in a way in that it is all about giving you a basis and then allowing you to build off of that, however your imagination would want to. And so I think there's so much more to delve into there, especially with the idea of it being not so grim, dark, there are people out to kill you all the time is really refreshing right now, especially in my psyche. And I like that there can be, you know, conflict that is doesn't feel quite so like, tyrannical, you know. And so I really enjoy that kind of aspect of as well to like that there can be things that are hopeful, and about establishing the type of world you want to see rather than trying to survive in the world that is terrible and grim all the time.
Snyder’s Return:Yeah, we've had well, just looking across at my, my screen, there's places like a Vernis we've had the tyranny of dragons, which came out of furnace and a few other darker, shall we say settings Ravenloft, shall you mentioned earlier and, and a few others. So going from the darker places, and to places of light and hope like the radiant citizen onwards, and onwards to the future? We've we've had Spelljammer come out recently, there's dragon lands come out one d&d is in its sort of playtesting phase at the moment of time recording, what are you most? And this goes out to the purview? What are you most excited for? That's coming down the track? Not necessarily, you know, sneak peek releases and things like that, but from from what has been announced and, and where you might like, the game and and the settings maybe in the future to go to?
Greg Tito:Well, I I'll jump in. Because I know you're always nervous about talking about features.
Shelly Mazzanoble:That's why I like to defer to our communications manager.
Greg Tito:I know right? Even when we're doing dragon talk here, she's always like, wait, no, you can't say that we say that we can say. But you know, in speaking in more general terms, it's similar to the theme that Shelly was was saying earlier about getting kids and their imaginations kind of lit up. I think there's something really exciting right now in the dungeons and dragons community where we can certainly have lots of settings and things that are backwards looking. You mentioned spell jammer, you know, all this stuff that's coming in 2023. Like, we're going back to Planescape, for example, a lot of those things are like, oh, yeah, a little bit of nostalgia, but of course, a lot new information coming to it. I'm really excited about what the next generation of Dungeons and Dragons players bring to the table. Like you mentioned Oberon, for example, everyone was just first published, you know, in the 2000s, which is a baby compared to all the other d&d settings out there, right or I guess, a teenager at this point. But I want to see new exciting settings, I want to see things that I have never seen before brought to life in a way that only people from today's generation could bring it. So similar to the way that that the d&d creators in the earlier decades were, you know, experiencing the socio political, you know, and writing stories that spoke to them. I want to see what today's writers who are being inspired you know, going through school and maybe even being being taught by by Shelley and Cade wells and other people who are using d&d as education, like they're learning about it now, what are they going to create and bring to life? It's going to be something that I've never even considered and thought of, and it will be very Gen Z or Gen alpha. And it will be there'll be tiktoks everywhere. And BTS is attacking us or something? I don't know. But it's going to be amazing. And I am looking forward to what imagination is
Snyder’s Return:going to come. Surely, tentatively, if you want to answer this one, carefully.
Shelly Mazzanoble:I'm still stuck on if Greg made a boyband reference.
Greg Tito:Yeah, there's gonna be evil boy over the world, kind
Snyder’s Return:of love that being in sync with each other.
Greg Tito:Is it hot in here? Is it 98 periods? Oh, my God.
Shelly Mazzanoble:Amazing. Okay. I really like Greg's answer, I think, yeah, we'll continue to do some really cool things here at Wizards of the Coast. But it's really, I too, am excited to see what the community brings figuratively and literally to the table. And I'm very excited to see how our education outreach grows. I just turned in a plan today for how I would personally like to see it grow. But really like seeing us, as a company, bring Dungeons and Dragons into schools in more ways and more schools and reach more kids and just give them this really powerful learning tool that also is incredibly fun for them to do. And just see how those kids that maybe are like, I don't really like reading, reading isn't cool for me, which breaks my heart to hear. But you know what, give them a monster manual. And watch it all change. So that is what I'm excited about the future generations and just seeing how we can continue to engage and inspire them.
Snyder’s Return:Not amazing. So moving from Gen Z Gen alpha to the next generation, Greg, reengage, I had to go to the podcast link,
Shelly Mazzanoble:you are almost as good at segues as Greg is. From the mask from watch.
Greg Tito:Yeah, so I mean, I was in the throes of the pandemic, as many of us were and I wanted to go back to a time and place that felt a little bit more positive. And I I stumbled again on on Star Trek The Next Generation, I started watching it from the beginning. And I was just struck at how much it is locked up in memories that I had when I was, you know, eight 910 11 Watching those episodes for the first time. And the utopian feel, and honestly, it just it was this really nice nostalgia mixed with man, I wish our world was more like, you know, the way the 24th century is portrayed in, in next generation, and also how much I learned about storytelling and acting and, you know, the, the way people are portrayed, you know, even the way they're similar to a d&d party, a crew that is the star of a of a starship, it feels like a d&d party, they all have their different talents, their different stories and different ways to solve problems. And it's about how they work together to to use their talents to them to the utmost, in order to solve those problems. So I wanted to go back and pitch it to some of my friends who are also actors and storytellers. And comedians in their own right. And new also had a connection to next generation. So yeah, people watching every episode, talking about what was happening when it first aired. So I, again, I kind of intellectually knew this, but I didn't really remember how much history was happening from 1987 when it premiered. Right now we're in 1990. And talking about the start of, you know, the invasion of Kuwait and all that, but then before that, the falling of the Berlin Wall and the the dissolution of the Soviet Union was all happening kind of at this moment in time, wow. The futurism that that Gene Roddenberry was talking about is all being shown. So it's great to go back and look at what was happening there, and then relate it to us being kids. And then adults now also going back and how some of the plots and stories especially ones that revolve around being older or being parents really hit a lot differently now and we really well, and it's, it's been a it's been a great journey. So we're about to start season four of Star Trek Next Generation and this is really I mean, the third season where it really picks up and gets on like, you know, legendary the first couple of seasons has some really good episodes, some really bad ones. But this is the moment when it really hits its stride and becomes franchise defining like that. God says now, so I can't wait to talk more about those.
Snyder’s Return:Well, that really is the best of both worlds.
Greg Tito:It actually is those episodes the best of both worlds. We just
Snyder’s Return:did season three, Episode 26.
Greg Tito:And I love being able to interact with the Star Trek community. It's, you know, very different than, than the d&d community. But it also has a lot of similarities. So a lot of the folks that we have talked to on Dragon talk had been guests on reengage and like, like, V, Dave Walters, and Cicero, Holmes and Tony, the pass was, was on there, talking about lots of the ways that she interacted with that. So it's been really great to kind of, you know, talk about a little bit more sci fi world of things. And then we just spoke to Dr. Aaron McDonald, who is a scientific scientist in her own right, she has a PhD, and is the consultant for some of the newer Star Trek shows on actual, you know, real life things. And so so we were talking about the antimatter spread that's used in the second part of the best of both worlds part two, she's like, there actually are antimatter and matter, and it actually exists. And this would be a great way to do a little smoke screen like it's used in this episode. I was like, wow, I would not have known that if we didn't have a PhD. They're talking to us all the time.
Snyder’s Return:And as the smoke screen unfortunately sort of descends upon us as time begins to run short.
Greg Tito:You're very good. Cheese.
Snyder’s Return:Would you shut it? Would you like to give us a quick reminder of the book's title and when it will become available? And then social links from the purview?
Shelly Mazzanoble:All right, well, it is called Welcome to Dragon talk inspiring conversations about Dungeons and Dragons in the people who love to play it. It comes out December 5, just in time for holidays. And it is available for pre order right now. So wherever you'd like to preorder your books from, you can probably find it there. Or go to University of Iowa presses website and order it there. Or your
Greg Tito:local game store. Just go or your local bookstore, your game store because I'm used to saying
Shelly Mazzanoble:it could also be in game stores.
Snyder’s Return:Yeah, right. Where can we follow each of you on social media, please?
Shelly Mazzanoble:Hi, I'm at Shelly mu on Twitter and Instagram. Not jelly goo, not jelly girl. She's only found in Deep Space. You should try
Greg Tito:to see if you can get that handle and picture of what you think jelly go looks like. I'm at Gregg Tito on Twitter and Greg underscore Tito on Instagram. We are if you want to follow reengage and listen to there. It's just reengage on any where you get podcasts like this amazing standard return podcast as well as Dragon talk. But you can also follow us on Twitter at re engage te N G. I also have made a short film that's called ex husbands if you want to follow along the updates there. It's at ex husband film. And we're looking to get that completed where I'm looking at like picture edits and talking about music and soundtrack right now. And hopefully we'll be in festival soon and viewable to all y'all but I'm excited about where that's gonna go. So cool.
Snyder’s Return:I will make sure links to all of that are in the description down below this podcast. So please scroll down, support the creators support this hobby, support the community and just be good people to everybody. Basically. It's been such a pleasure to get to speak to you, Shelly and yourself, Greg, it's been a real boon for myself. Absolutely. I'd love to get you back on the show in the future if you'd be willing to come back and discuss random topics including d&d book publishing, and very many topics that we haven't been able to touch on just yet. If you'd be willing, absolutely. Let's do it. Yes, I will saw that in an email, get that scheduled and all those sorts of good things. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks. Thanks for listening. If you'd like to learn more about the show, then go to www dot Snyder’s return.squarespace.com. Alternatively, you can find us over on Twitter. At return Schneider, you have a link tree link in the description of this episode. And if you want to support us, come and join us over on Patreon and we also have a Discord server. Please leave us a review because we'd love to learn how to improve the channel and provide better content out for for those who are listening until we until we speak again. Thank you