Hello and welcome to Snyder’s return a tabletop roleplay podcast. My guests today broadcast that epic content to the five boroughs across the material plane and beyond. The quest for Sonic satisfaction means there's no sleep till Arachis as they map out mad dungeons, smash out cyclists and conquer the world. With a skilled scaled swordsman and a striped wonder worker leading the charge. We don't our dark sunglasses, kickstart the kick drum, set our levels to Epic. And check it out with Steve Albertson and Andrew Bullery, aka Dragon Warrior and Tiger wizard of epic levels welcome both of you to the show.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:That's an amazing introduction. I don't think I've ever heard anything so beautiful.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:Yeah, well thought out, I could tell you listen to our music and our podcast. So exciting.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:Thank you so much for having us.
Snyder’s Return:Well, thank you both for providing so much for me to put into that introduction, and a lot of which we will touch on later in the episode. So before we get into sort of why you originally sort of invited you on or why we sort of agreed to get you on the show. How did each of you get into tabletop role playing games, please?
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:Well, I'm so glad you asked this question. It's something that I get asked frequently. And as Steve is likely to point out later on, I usually give a very long explanation of how one thing led to the other with a, a childhood and comic books and then Miniature War Gaming and then friends that were into Dungeons and Dragons. But I think I will try to sum it up into I got into role playing games the same way I go into every room in a dungeon, which is I just kicked the door and burst into it.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:Nice. Yeah, but I think you go a little more than that. So as a 12 year old Andrew, I think 12 Right, like started working. I was 11 in the child minds of comic books and then got into mage night. That yeah, age nine always wanted to hang out the older kids, right. So I get into d&d.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:Yep. Yeah, there was some older kids that were playing role playing games. I wasn't. I wasn't older cool enough to play but I was plenty cool enough to play Magic the Gathering cards and miniature Wargaming so wasn't until I was a teenager. I actually got to play in. You know, out. I guess I was already a teenager when I was 12. No. 13 That's when you become a teenager. Right?
Snyder’s Return:That's where the to some countries. Yeah,
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:later teens, I was able to drive an automobile and get myself to someone's house to roll up some characters. Yeah, I've been playing ever since. I was just gonna say I think the first system I played in was I think it was third edition. I think I played in third edition first. This is in the 90s. And then after that, I switched over to some white wolf games, played some white wolf games with some friends and then came back for 3.5 and play 3.5 Pretty much until fifth edition. We had a quick stint with Pathfinder I think in between. Yeah. Steve, you want to talk about your past? Yes. With Steve Many games have I played with Steve
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:many a game together. Mine starts off where punk rock Dungeons and Dragons drugs. All of this stuff came together in the same kind of afternoon evening. So I've always had this idea that playing RPGs and dungeons and dragons in particular was always like a countercultural kind of movement where it was always like this kind of dorky thing that people would like, you know crap on when they're when you talk about it. So I've always had this I want to put it front and centre in your face kind of attitude pretty much my entire life. So it became just as much a part of my personality as skateboarding and punk rock shows when I was like a teenager. I first got started, like, it was like this guy named Jeff in high school. I went over to his house and we're listening like rancid and IV and Buzzcocks and stuff and for like, the first time it was like life changing. And then we played d&d, and like all of this stuff kind of together. I was like, this is all it all goes together. but very shortly after that, I got my hands on a book of mage, the ascension from White Wolf. And that was the first thing I started playing like on a very regular basis. And I had no idea how to play role playing games, I didn't understand the idea of a dice pool, I was rolling a D 10. Like we roll the D 20. With things now like one D 10, to see how it works out. And then I met some other friends later on high school that also played Dean all separate, like we didn't know each other, but like I always brought it up. I still bring it up when I am in like groups of people. And we start playing a bunch of like second edition and then started digging into other games. And then that kind of just grew into a whole lifetime of it. So I played music my whole life. I had a band called like Dr. Kill bot were one of our music videos ends up looking like the old monster manual first edition. Like I've always this is like in the early 2000s. So I've always been putting like these DND kind of things front and centre of every record I've done until I met Andrew who wanted to like do like some nerdcore, d&d style rap stuff. And it was kind of a fun. Get away from the punk rock side of things, get more of the hip hop side of things and just write comedy around all of the stuff. We've spent our lives loving and building friendships around. So the main thing about d&d is about building community, and that's what epic levels is all about as well,
Snyder’s Return:ya know, amazing, huh? So, you've mentioned each of you have a winding path found White Wolf independently and sort of eventually became this group epic levels. But how did the two of you actually meet? You mentioned you met Andrew and, and there was just intrigued as to how the two of you sort of came together in that? Sure. So
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:yeah, Steve's from Chicago. And he when he moved to Atlanta, he does what Steve does, like the moment he comes in contact with a new group of people. And he says, What the hell is up with Dungeons and Dragons, and you nerds plays d&d in this room. Who wants to roll dice with me? And so what's the Learn? Yeah. So you got a job at a coffee shop. That who worked at the coffee shop to was a neat Nikki
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:worked at a coffee shop that and Chris to but Nikki didn't have anything to do with this Nikki now we bring her Chris, because she is now married to rob Andrew sibling who also engineers and backup vocals and does the podcast with us as well. So I met Nikki at the coffee shop, and Rob played in a band with me, called Sex BBQ in Atlanta after I moved there, too. So like it's all live in the same community. So I met this woman named Chris, Who knew this guy named Josh and Josh was running a game with this group, and Andrew was part of that group. So when I got to Atlanta, I had this meeting at manuales tavern, which is a staple of Atlanta, Georgia to just talk about what kind of character I wanted to play in the 3.5. Game. They were running at the time. And yeah, so then I met Andrew, and it turned out me and Andrew, were equal parts excessive in the love of the hobby. And that's why we were able to hit this.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:Yeah, maybe a little too much. But that yeah, that table has spawned some friendships and some community that like are still strong today. That was like, that was like, what, almost 15 years ago now?
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:Maybe 11. I moved to Atlanta.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:Okay. So not quite that long. 1112 years ago.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:Yeah. It's been a while and I ended up moving to Los Angeles for like, five years, and then COVID hit. And then I came back, I put all my stuff into storage, I was sick and not seeing people. So then I spent the last two years bouncing between Chicago were my family and people I grew up with and all that is that and Lana, and then this last year, I spent the whole year living with Andrew and his wife, Becky, and we just had a work our day jobs, which is printing T shirts for RPG stuff for Andrew and doing music PR for me. And then at night, we do all of the epic level stuff, but it was fun living there. So I could just we'd walk down for breakfast and then talk about stuff that we were working on end goals and all that as
Snyder’s Return:glass. No, that's an amazing story or sequence of events. It's an ongoing story A saga 12 years in the making, but once you've met and you engage them found each other on that same level and go in there with me when did that turn into a podcast? When did that turn into epic levels? music creation. When did that become this? Enter? attainment, juggernaut that you have created.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:I think it was like after we went above level 20, right?
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:Yeah, once we got above level 20 Things got epic. Yeah. But there was a time so Andrew wanted to make d&d music like Andrew brought that to me. Like we'd always been kind of making things on our own Andrews an illustrator by trade, and but we also a musician. So like, Andrew and I both have played in separate bands, but never in the same one. So there was a time, I don't even know it was a while ago, like,
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:we were like, kind of in between bands, at least I was in between bands. I've never been in between the band. Well, Steve always has like two or three bands going, Yes, you always have like two or three bands going at a time. So I'm like, I'm a one band at a time kind of guy. So I was in between bands and wanting to do something musical, but I wanted to do something that was not like nodding towards Dungeons and Dragons or role playing games, I wanted to do something that was fully role playing games. And yeah, and so we started going over to my brother, Rob's house, and we would just sort of fiddle around with beats. And the two of us would write lyrics together, we like we wrote sort of trading back and forth. And, you know, I think at the beginning, we made like, maybe two or three songs, and it was kind of just for the fun of it, you know, no real ambition. And then I think, I think it wasn't until you moved away that we were like, Oh, shit, like, we should really do this. And let's, you know, let's make it into an album. Let's, let's, you know, round it out with a full set of songs. And then, and then we did that.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:Yeah, and I mean, even Andrew came out like so we're already midway through the next record, even when I was in Los Angeles, Andrew came out to visit and we'd recorded stuff in Los Angeles, preparing for, you know, this next round of stuff. And a couple of singles we've released that you've referenced, dark sunglasses, and bear, bear Barber, like those are things that came from the Los Angeles trip, but
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:also the Los Angeles tapes, the Los
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:Angeles tapes. But we also worked with this guy named Mason grant that we knew from so there was a time when me and Andrew would go again to manuals tavern every Sunday and go play Magic the Gathering, do drafts there and it was just like a community thing. There's like probably like 20 plus people that would show up every week majority of which were lawyers. So if like we ever gotten you know, trouble in you know, we'd be able to get out but what's on the neck first, right? But we knew Mason from that and Mason grant also has his own game company called the gamma wave games. But he did a lot of the beats for this first record. And so talking to him and getting things going and then we we gave him what we wanted and then we get it back in the mean Andrew be like, what does this make us think of and then we write lyrics together. And Rob also made some beats and another friend chipped in as well. It's fun process it
Snyder’s Return:sounds a lot of fun. A lot of travelling involved by the sounds a bit a lot of fun at the same time. When did Andrew and Steve become the Monica's Dragon Warrior and Tiger was it when did when did you start really embodying those, those roles those monikers those lives?
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:Sure. Um, well, so right out of college, I started a an artist nonprofit here in Atlanta, with some friends and I had been experimenting with some like some sort of different I'm gonna say that I was experimenting with being a pretend to pretentious artist. Like that was kind of what I was trying. I was trying to like, get to that. Oh, like pretentious, like, really high end art. I've since given that up. I am now just, you know lowbrow, lowbrow. Yeah, draw only drawing like monsters and interesting as they have been called maps. But yeah, at the time I was I was wanting to create this persona for myself. And you know, much in the same way that Steve sort of had while he was experimenting with music always had Dungeons and Dragons sort of as a part of that I wanted the my love for fantasy role playing games and you know, really just high fantasy to be a part of my artist, moniker. And so Tiger wizard started, I was probably 22 or three, and I was like, This is my artist name. My artist name is Tiger wizard. So Um, that's where it started for me. And then it just sort of made sense when we started making music together that well, like obviously, my hip hop MC name is also Tiger wizard. Like that's, that's a no brainer. And then I kind of can't i think i con Steve into adopting Dragon Warrior. I was like you're so strong and big and like You're like a dragon because you're fierce and you're totally a Dragon Warrior.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:Well, I got something to say about that, too. So when I went to when I moved to Atlanta, like there's a friend of Andrew, Andrew Rob and our good friend Steve Brown, he's passed away now, but Steve Brown drummed in a band with me as well. And so there's me Steve, my old business partner, who I also played in the band with me was also Steve. I was Steve So there are a whole bunch of Steve So among that friend group, and I think it was even like one of Andrews ex girlfriends or someone else started calling me dragon Steve. differentiate me from like all of them. Yeah, and so it kind of stemmed out from there. But like I also don't like the idea of not using my name anymore like I've wanted like so with a doctor kill but I was went by Johnny turbo, like we always had like this, and that one, we're like, I need to pick a name and it needs to fit 170s gangster warrior style and professional wrestler. So there was like, the Baron and Bilbo badass was like another guy in the back that killed that. But then so with epic levels, like we'll use Dragon Warrior when we're going through it you could listen the first record to Andrew even calls me dragon Steve at one point because we like nailed it down yet at that point. But now it's Tiger wizard I've taken on Dragon Warrior because you need to have that dichotomy that the wizard the warrior, the father and the grey mouse or you know, or, you know, whoever is going to be the wizard and the warrior. But then we also have Zach Cowan, who produces the podcast is bat Alchemist. And Rob is going by the rock Warlock rock rock. The warlock rock I mix it up all the time. It's my it's my cross to bear. And then we have like, not official members like our buddy Jay who is writing the mystic punks RPG right now goes by shark monk. So maybe we'll bring it in more of a brockhampton style collective at some point with a bunch of animal meats class name,
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:which which brings me to a very important question. When we first got on this call before I think Adam realised I overheard you singing a little bit I suggested that maybe Adam should join epic levels. So if that was the case, what would your name be? So you would pick like some kind of fierce animal that you really enjoy?
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:It doesn't have to be fierce.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:It doesn't have to be fierce. It could be it could be whatever you want. But some some some other creature right and then some class and you just sort of put them together in a way that is fun for you. Okay,
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:yeah, what's your go to class Adam? Like if you're gonna play a game What's your
Snyder’s Return:go to class? It got to be Ranger under appreciated class opinion so it would be something Ranger something something Ranger I will I will work shop that in the back of my mind and throw it out just before the end. So while I work on my identity identity and find myself I'll throw it back to YouTube where can we find you on social media and and on the internet so we can sort of support your content
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:Sure, so very active on Instagram. It's epic underscore levels we have a Patreon which is also just patreon.com/epic levels we're on Discord also just epic levels
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:are a link for that on our website that yeah, like yeah, there everything is on the web levels rap gods.com
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:Yeah, probably should have started with that. You can get pretty you can get to pretty much everything from the website. So instead of trying to remember all of these things that are very similar but slightly different. Just go to the website you can get to all of these places. Epic levels rap gods.com
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:epic well Patreon is great because we're sending out lots of so Andrew illustrate. So we do the Mad dungeon podcast in which we bring a guest on from the community. We've had people everyone from Tim cask who was the first TSR employee and Ed Greenwood, who invented the Forgotten Realms to Keith Baker and lots of other folks In the community, and then we make a one page adventure that I then take all of that content, whittle it down to its foundations and write the words that will then go on a map that's illustrated by Andrew. And then those are all available for free on our website. And several of them are also available as 11 by 17 posters that you could buy that we have an artist do a flip side of it, so you have a fun, poster size, something from the episode, and then an actual playable map on the other side.
Snyder’s Return:Wow. Well, I will make sure that all those links mentioned and all the other ones that I can find are down the description below this podcast. So please scroll down, follow those links and support epic levels. One of the things that we would love you to support is the time of recording ongoing Kickstarter. Armour, classy. For the music, armour, armour classes. So what's it been like sort of pushing through a Kickstarter campaign on the music you started having sort of met in a gaming room and found a kinship for each other? What's that journey been like? And what's, what's the dream of this Kickstarter?
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:Sure. Um, well, I can answer that it's been great. Like the support that we have had for this Kickstarter has been kind of overwhelming. So if you have backed it, thank you so much. If this you know, if this didn't reach your ears in time, and you missed out, like, we will have this artefact for sale, at some point somewhere. So you know, don't fret, but it it has been, it has been very flattering for me to have had have such overwhelming support for our very first attempt at doing a Kickstarter. You know, we hit the we hit our, our goal on the first day, pretty quickly. And then, you know, just people continue to support it all the way through the campaign. So you know, the, if you don't mind, I'd like to tell you a little bit about what it is, please. So it's our full length, album, armour, classy. And then also, me and Steve took a trip to the house on the rock, which is a weird place that you can visit if you live in America, or you can live anywhere and go visit this place. It's in America. In Wisconsin. Steve, can you like attempt to describe this place in a few sentences?
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:Let's see what we got. So I've been there before and fell in love with this place. Andrew and I went to gamehole Con this year, which is in Madison, Wisconsin. That was last summer. I guess we're playing 23 Now you're right. Yeah, but the last one that occurred. Yeah. And then took an extra day because I wanted to bring Andrew to this place. It's also a main staple in Neil Gaiman's American Gods it's where the aisle this carousel so house on the rock is a man built a legit just house on this giant What 200 foot up almost sheer rock. And then that's only part of it. It's a wild swing and bachelor pad looking thing from like space age 50s and 60s with all these weird little rooms. But on top of that he was a collector of oddities. So it has one of the world's largest carousels that has five different layers on it. It has an entire room of weird doll houses. One of the rooms used to be called the inferno room that then changed into the Oregon room. That looks like a giant weird Frankenstein time travel. And it's huge. Like I would say I'm gonna say room but room doesn't even do it's like a warehouse. It has like 50 foot tall brass, like casters. Yeah, that's there's another room that has a giant whale like, like sharp, sharp teeth for some reason, fighting a kraken that also goes up 50 feet in the air. It's massive. And like the entire room. It's not even you can't even go through it all in one day. Me and Andrew actually, we spent so much time just looking at all the things that like we were ushered out by a guy with a broom at the end.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:Yeah, literally sweeping us out the door.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:I love this place.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:He did a weird thing, which I think is super cool. But he collected these artefacts, right, like collections of things. But he was also an artist, and I think maybe he was eccentric ly wealthy and so he had no respect for artefacts, because what he would do is he would take like a legit real like vintage gun and put it in a disk Lay case and then you know I out yeah mod it out right to make it look wild and set that one right beside it so you can have like a real artefact right next to some crazy thing that he created but they look like they're about the same age and same type of thing. So it's hard to say like, what what of this is real and what of this is just like some rich lunatics imagination going like crazy off the walls. It was super inspiring. So we wrote an adventure about it.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:So what we did is we took each song off of the record and then made that a room in the dungeon. So each room in the dungeon is a hybrid of a part of house on the rock madness and one of our songs. So it starts off where you're in a dinner party in a gallery where people are doing lawn bowling, our first song is rather be rolling, which is a song about how we'd rather be rolling dice and playing d&d with our friends then, you know, responsible things like hanging out with our families or, you know, building relationships with girlfriends or whatever. But so, each Yeah, so to 10 room adventure that I wrote that Andrew illustrated that will fit in the booklet we chose a CD over a vinyl to just because it's very easy, manageable thing, we may at some point do a cassette or a vinyl but we would do a different adventure for it. So our plan is to like not release this thing only have it available as a physical item. You know, we don't
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:want that don't worry fans, the eighth track is the eighth track adventure is coming soon.
Snyder’s Return:I was really hoping you do be pitching me a mini disc but I'm guessing between the ears there. With this, this album, this artwork this this booklet, CD the releasing through the Kickstarter project a little earlier time recording, you have three, three or four times over the sort of the funded price of price cost. Goal. That's the word funding. So you know, incredible support for for two, one, the two of you and the rest of the creative team that makes up the epics levels, sort of team. The maps you mentioned from the Mad dungeon podcast. But that's not the only podcast you do. And I'm struggling to fathom how you find time to make all this much music, fantastic music, work on a Kickstarter work in sort of professional lives and do side quests?
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:Oh, yes. Well, let's not let's not forget that. We're also both avid gamers and play in several campaigns a week. And I've recently just picked up a very time consuming, and also kind of expensive hobby of getting back into Warhammer. Yeah. So yeah, I don't know where this time comes from?
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:No, I mean, it's we have to, we have to build out the time, that's for sure. Like, even yesterday, me and Andrew got together with the rest of the team. And we are getting ready for season two of the Mad dungeon podcast where instead of doing full maps, like which were like ending up being like two hour episodes and a lot of work for us to like, filter it down. And so we're going to, in season two move into doing single rooms to keep things a little bit more manageable. And then at the end of season two, we'll put those together in some sort of packaging, we probably won't know what that is until we get deeper into it. But we've already recorded several episodes of that, but it is about
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:and and more and more importantly than like manageable because you know, as much as there is a lot of stuff for us to do, like we love doing this stuff. So it's it's the the main thing about the way that we've changed the format in season two is that it's going to open us up to having a lot more guests. And the hope is that you know, this smaller bite size format will be able to release more content. So even more stuff coming out in season two than what we released with the first season.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:And on top of that, so this Kickstarter is not just a Kickstarter for the armour classes see dungeon. It's also the Kickstarter for me and Andrew and epic levels as a whole kickstarting and putting out our own projects. So both Andrew and I have several things that we've been working on for a while that is getting prepped and ready for release. So this is actually just going to be the first of a lot of stuff we have planned for 2023. So we're still building out what the rest of the year is going look like but we have lots of projects in the pipeline for this year. So the plan is, so with the old podcast, we're spending a lot of our time getting that stuff ready. So with this, it's still going to take a bunch of time, but it will allow us to work on these other things. ziens, we have a couple of core book ideas. One of which is almost completely written. But it's a matter of time, time is the whole thing. How to make time and at the same time make music. So me and Andrew have also like to get like real how the sausage is made. We have a weekly Tuesday meeting, that's normally what is all that big level stuff. We're doing what needs to get done. And now we're going to alternate it more to make sure that we're going to be able to keep up with music production to which has been, you know, it takes a lot of time to write record, Master Mix, get artwork together get bio written, like all the things that go around, not just the music itself.
Snyder’s Return:Yeah, it's you know, I doff the capital, the amount of work, not only you put into the podcast, the maps, the Kickstarter, but the music and everything that runs behind that. Do you mentioned getting back into Warhammer, so you've got no downtime left? But Do either of you have any downtime in between all this allocation of time to these various projects? I made a note that the you do a podcast, the total movie records, that's another project. How do you get downtime? Is there such a thing in your life?
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:I mean, this is what I love doing. So it's, you know, it's a it's a little bit in between, you know, work and fun, right? So I'm trying to make all of these things, things that I love. So total move recall podcast, it's a little bit easier that one will do a big chunks, and then we'll just go on hiatus until we record another big chunk and my partner and that is about to go to grad school in Wales. So we'll see how much time they have for as they're working on their doctorate.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:This isn't this, Ryan's like second doctorate, or second, he
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:loves academia, this man, Ryan Mixon, my partner and total movie recall why, but I'll tell you what my free time like I could, me and Andrew have talked about this a lot this week is stress in general and dealing with stress. And one of my big stress relievers is just going to the movies. I love it. So and I have a film degree. And so going into film stuff is very important to me. And also all this writing I've always written forever, but like part of my degree was screenwriting. So moving screenwriting stuff into RPG and writing stuff is not a huge leap. Although you're leaving characters alone and more about world building than anything else, most of the time.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:Well, it's all about story, right? Like, we're concerned with creating stories collect collaboratively and creating systems where we can create stories together. So it all it all ties together, it's all part of the same big, beautiful bundle,
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:even the format for the Mad dungeon podcast for season one, it's shifting a little bit as we go to season two is built off of like my knowledge of like Aristotle's Poetics, and moving from like screenwriting formats where we start off with our initial so what we do, we roll dice, we all roll a random number that will give us a noun, verb or adjective. All of us, including guests will then say a word, we start off with initial thoughts about what those words and combinations mean. And so they could be a variety of things. And then from there, we're figuring out starting with who is the villain, and then once we figure out who the villain is, we figure out who our friend is who our comrade is that can help the PCs and tells them what's up. Then we figure out who what the MacGuffin is, which is something that Alfred Hitchcock had coined, which is like an item or something that will get the story going, that could keep it moving as well. And so we figured out what a MacGuffin is to make sure that the player characters are actually going to interact with whatever story that we're building. And then we move on to the location like, which is the main thing. So we're building a map. But before we even get to the map part where we already know like, what the story is. So based on like, what the story is, that will help us locked down what the actual location is. And so in season two, we're condensing kind of a lot of these things into a single location instead of multiple locations.
Snyder’s Return:Yeah, no, I mean, the premise and the way you structure it sounds and is fantastic, but I can see how that could create a lot of work, especially at the back end, trying to bring it all together and sort of putting out for us to us to enjoy at our leisure. So, again, I've already dropped the cap, it's it's over there somewhere.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:I got it and let me let me just say this too, because in addition to doing The artwork, I also do the layout. And something that I think is often overlooked is I kneecap Steve regularly, by giving him a crazy word count.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:It is so hard for me to hit my well
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:I give I'm like, you're allowed to write 1000 words about this adventure, because I have to fit it all onto a page. And I can fit more words onto a page if I get really, really creative. And use a, you know, a point size that will not be easy on your eyes. But it is a tremendous feat for Steve to condense, you know, all of the crazy ideas that we come up with on the actual show, and then sort of boil them down into like a delicious sauce. That is actually makes sense. So it's like a, it's a pretty huge load for Steve, the the writing part, I feel like it's a lot easier to just kind of create an adventure from scratch. You know, without sort of the need to stick to these. Sometimes non sequitur concepts that can get introduced in an improv show. And I just have to say, like, while we're doffing hats, like he does a phenomenal job and deserves praise.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:Let's go on the other side, too. So Andrew does all the illustrations and so the more words I have, the less room there is for his cool drawings, which let's be clear, is going to be way more selling point or like getting you interested in seeing what's going on, then, like, he'll get you in. And then you could read the words that we all came up with after the fact. So more words, I have mean smaller art, which is also the other thing, but yeah, this last episode we did as a little family holiday episode that is a necro Prancer at a mall Santa adventure, and that one oh my god, we had like a delightful the frightful metre and like a bunch of other tables, like there's so much that we had in that episode that like I'd had I seriously cut the word count after I'd like got it all together, down to half or less. But with that said, one of the plans for us this year, and we're working on it, slowly but surely is to put together an omnibus book that will keep all these maps will have more illustrations, we'll be able to use more space to tell the stories as it all comes together. So hopefully, we'll have something like that out by the end of the year.
Snyder’s Return:Yeah, no, I'm looking forward to seeing how it develops. I've, I've got your maps up on another screen. And as close as I mentioned to Andrew, before we hit record on this, this episode, they are unique and distinctive and eye catching and, and all the good things that draw the eye. So wonderfully done. And, again, backed up with your wonderful wordplay, and the structures. So if you haven't checked it out, please scroll down at link below. Follow the Patreon link, for sure. Have a look under podcast, mad dungeon maps, they are they're beautiful, beautiful maps ready to be run. So, you know, all I can do is ask you to follow those links below. So you mentioned the omnibus coming in the future. That's that's down the line 2023 onwards. Let's roll back a little bit and learn more about your inspirations and what keeps you engaged and moving forward as content creators.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:You want to take that one first, Steve? Sure.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:I mean, I am influenced by everything. So I'm writing all the time I'm and man things just keep my attention. So right now, we have the projects that are coming out this year, and I'm not even done with them. But my latest obsession is like Book of Enoch RPG and putting together that's like going to be more kind of Conan versus angels and Nephilim that are like Lovecraftian horrors, and so I've been slowly picking away at that. But then so when I'm getting these moods and I just want to write about stuff. I'm like, rereading the stuff. I've rewatching Eve, Neon Genesis Evangelion right now because they're like, you know, the enemies and that thing are like, angels from wherever and I'm like, Alright, let's see what they're doing and see if that's something that's gonna fit into what I'm in. But I go see movies. Yeah, so one of the things we're putting out right now, this year the plan hopefully is horror rpg that like I walked out of x this year, the horror film, and great film well like top of the list, and I've already had like a system for this, like thing that we're putting out, that was more of a superhero thing. So we'll put, we'll put up varieties of this. But the first one will be based on that. But my brain is a creator, it's constantly going, I hear a song, and I'm going to, like bank off of that song. And then when I get something in my mind, I want to like, surround myself with these sorts of things to continue to influence me. And so I'll listen to podcasts, I'll watch YouTube videos, I make it a point as a writer, when I go to sleep at night that like, I start thinking about what I want to be working on, or what I'm currently working on. Like, as I'm going to sleep. So sometimes, like dreams about it, or I'll wake up with ideas that I didn't have in the morning, when I get up. And you know, who knows what my brain is doing while I'm sleeping. But as a creative I mean, it's I try to use the everything around me, but then also focus and hone it.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:And Steve, aren't you also doing a little room a day for a little dungeon? 23. You mentioned
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:drew, I am so excited. Yeah. So dungeon 23, which is put out by Sean who did mothership RPG, but the idea is you get a calendar. And then on the left hand side of the book, you know, like a daily planner. The left side has dates, the right side has an opening for drawing, right. So yeah, so
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:Sean McCoy, I think is who you're talking about Steve.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:So I get what Andrew is so excited about drawing. This has been Andrea, we haven't even really talked about this. But I'm so excited about the idea of like hand drawing things like well, I'm doing other stuff. But I'll kind of hold up what I'm doing. I haven't even posted any of this yet. But I created in the beginning of epic levels with Andrew a spreadsheet that has every Dungeons and Dragons monster ever created. And I think it's like 3000 4000 monsters or something like that. Wow. So with this. So the idea is you'll do a page a day or a drama day and have a mega dungeon at the end with like, potentially 52 levels or whatever.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:Well, each month you do a level right now.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:Yeah, you can.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:That's not what to do it however you want to do. That's exactly how you do it.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:Yeah, exactly. So mine is going to be seven rooms each time but I rolled on that chart, just give me random stuff to see what each level is going to be. And so it's like starts off with a caster which are kitty people like cat folk cutie ones. And then after that was astral Dreadnought. So, I will show ya, it's like, I don't know if you can see here but there's like, I made a little kitty village and then go through a portal and then after that a little inside of an astral Dreadnought so like a lot of astral creatures go it's very fun. And then I've got a where dragon room I'm doing what so the idea is at the end, you'll have this wild mega dungeon to run with. But I've just loved it as a keep the creative juices flowing. Nothing I really need to think of too hard. It's nothing. I mean, I guess potentially we could put this out as content but it's probably just going to be for me.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:I don't know. I feel like I feel like the people want to know. We should be. We should be posting your dungeon 23 on our social medias.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:You got it'll be there when you go look.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:Yeah, by the time you wake up in the morning.
Snyder’s Return:You're your one idea could inspired hundreds if not 1000s of others.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:That's right. 10s of 10s of people will be inspired by our writings and drawings. For me, I you know, I like to I like to draw so I'm kind of a doodler. So as I mentioned, I come from like an art background and leaving the the like, kind of desire to do stuff that is valuable behind I've started to just sort of try to gamify things that I draw. So the other day I was drawing like I was, I was drawing a coffee cup. And then I had this idea I was like what if like, was like there was some like grinds in the bottom like coffee grinds, but like I could also see some like undissolved sugar granules and I was like what if there's a group of like scuba diving fruit flies that like want to risk the hot coffee water to like dive down and get and so I was like alright, well throw this coffee cup drawing away. Let's draw this dungeon. That's Fruit flies scuba diving into, you know, an old coffee cup. So I think that what my answer here is, is just that, like, I tend to find strange inspiration from various sort of mundane sources. You know, I also get inspired like going to see going to the house on the rock was tremendously inspiring to me, like just filled my head with ideas. But there's also I think that there, there is a plethora of phenomenal ideas and, you know, wellspring of creativity. Just, you know, laying around you all the time. If you know if you can, like kind of Yes, and you know, and just be like, okay, you know, here's, you know, I'm brushing my teeth, like, what kind of role playing game is that? You know, like Andrew
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:says that he has done a toothbrushing dungeon, I've seen it.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:Watch out, dentists of the world. I'm coming for you. I'm gonna get all the dentists playing Dungeons and Dragons. So yeah, I just, I tend to like look at things that are around me. And try to imagine, you know, what, if this was a game, or, or what if this was a monster.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:And there's a concept I learned in film school called Kino eye, which is the idea if you're a filmmaker, or a cinematographer or photographer that when you're looking at the world that you can kind of see how things can be framed with composition. It's like DNDi. Yeah, so Andrews thing is kind of like DNDi RPG. RPG UI.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:That's fun. Yeah, I've just got like a wellspring of stupidity. Right. And I say stupidity, but what I mean is like lowbrow creativity right underneath the surface, that's just aching to burst out. So like a chest popper from aliens.
Snyder’s Return:Nice. Great game. By the way, if you haven't had a chance to play that role playing game.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:Andrew gasca. The Yes.
Snyder’s Return:pleasure to talk to his cat is in the latest adventure. So definitely pick that up. If you want to play a cat in the alien. Don't do
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:Jonesy, justice for Jonesy.
Snyder’s Return:I was gonna say an apple a day keeps the dungeon at bay. But we moved on and I thought I'd steal that moment back. So you have told us everything you've told us many things can't tell us everything. Because you are both such deep wells, of inspiration and creativity. You've told us what is happening at the moment, the Kickstarter, the podcasts and all those sorts of things. And what has inspired you and moved on? But what about advice to help? DMS GMs out there that maybe want to run one of those who should be running one of your maps but may want to run one of your maps or their own games as creative people and and used to this improv and and roleplay aspect and releasing yourself into both character and the DM sort of seat. Any advice for those who want to take up that mantle?
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:Alright, yes, I run these games very regularly at conventions. And I would say like our adventures, in general are in particular. But my advice always is to don't let the rules bog you down. Feel free to go with the yes anding. Use them as guidance. And remember that your players aren't just players. I'd like to think about them as the main characters in a film. You know, there shouldn't be an adversarial thought in your brain as the DM. I mean, we could all relish a good death like that'll happen. Go ahead and listen to our army classy for DM killed my character for me and Andrew complaining about that. But yes, but a good character death is worth it. You know, I like I like my bad roles as much as I like my good roles. That's a good advice for people is. don't enjoy the fun seriously. Yeah, enjoy the fumbles as much as you enjoy the crits let the bad things happen to your character and keep it rolling. You know,
Snyder’s Return:the story is in the failure i What about yourself? Andrew, any advice for it can be player advice can be DM advice can just be gameplay advice. Um, well, I
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:think I would just, you know, like to say that everything Steve just said is, you know, that's a sound sound advice I heartily recommend as a player to embrace failure and trying to own failure. I think is one of the more fun things that you can do at a table, you're like, I swing my sword and trying to hit the, you know, the gelatinous cube. And you you miss somehow, I don't know, it seems like your arms all up in there now. Yeah, so like, you know, make it fun, make it you know, make it exciting, add, you know, add your own spin on the failure, I think the point of games, and I'm not a professor of games, but I probably should be. But the point is to have fun, so like, have fun with it, you know, I would say both as a dungeon master storyteller, and as a player, just try to have fun with it. And if you're thinking about running a game for the first time, just do it. You know, just
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:take a stab at the little stuff, man, don't worry about Ben, go into the deep end.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:If you're if you're really concerned that you're not going to run a great game, I'll give you Steve's telephone number, you can call him he will walk you through every step of running a successful dungeon.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:And I do think that things like critical role might not be doing the best service for like what a game is or should be. I mean, you could have these great immersive character, long running campaigns where you like really get into it. But I mean, it's just as great to have like a one shot where you could just like, have fun with your friends and laugh. The big thing to remember with like, role playing games is about, it's about hanging out with people, you know, like you could play solo games, or you can play video games. But the big thing about role playing games is you're talking to other human beings. So don't forget that either. You know, like, hang out and talk. I mean, I've made so many good friends through this hobby. And it's like something you add on the thing earlier is inclusiveness. And I think that's very important to the hobby. So being able to bring anyone in and anyone could be whatever they want. So it's also role playing games of all sorts, not just Dungeons and Dragons, there's so many different options for games to play, and we run and play tonnes of them, but they give you places to explore. Maybe who you are, or maybe who you'd want to be or even people you never thought you'd be. Like, I mean what earlier in like the 90s or 2000s I like I never played female characters like it just didn't even occur to me now I have like, half of them, you know, or like, you could play whatever you want and just like explore what that space could be like.
Snyder’s Return:Yeah, great advice. And so we can follow this on a epic on a high epic I would would like to remind everybody where they can find you on social media and on the internet so we can go and support your fantastic content, everything you put out the shows the maps, the music, Kickstarter, all of that, please.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:Sure. So epic levels rap gods.com is where you can find everything on Instagram and Twitter. You can find us at Epic underscore levels. Just search epic levels on Discord. Facebook, also epic levels. What else we got paid Kickstarter, Patreon epic levels.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:Yeah, Discord link is also on our website. And that's a place where you could actually like interact with us on a regular basis. That's also very fun. Another fun thing on the discord is we have a channel for as we mix music and gaming, put your favourite album art that would make good gaming that's a fun channel we have on there. So all of your mana wars and your Rob Hallford Judas Priest covers work great, but we also love it about so like talking about
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:some inspiration, right? Yeah,
Snyder’s Return:running through various album covers trying to pick one out and and there's almost too many to choose from.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:Just imagine you're role playing. You're playing as your favourite Ranger, but you're on the cover of Green Days Dookie. Like, just imagine the potential.
Snyder’s Return:My range would be more like the cover from Americana, the offspring album with sound bites the cockroach next room on the swing. Yeah, that's me and my beasts companion. Speaking of which, in honour of the size return logo. I've gone for Wyvern Ranger. It's a bit close to sort of Dragon Warrior but I think we could double double double.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:It's not doubling up at all what Wyvern has a Poison Tip Talon let's not forget
Snyder’s Return:these,
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:you can hunt them down and track them and then just point me at him and I'll do the big damage.
Snyder’s Return:But there we go. There's a plan in place. So maybe if you would agree to come back on the show, we could potentially put that plan in progress in progress. I'd love to get your back. Bit more music more roleplay just more great content you guys are putting out. So if you'd be willing to come back and join us in the future, be an absolute pleasure.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:Absolutely.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:Sure thing. And thank you again, for letting us join you today. It's been a pleasure.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:Yeah. Thanks so much, Adam.
Snyder’s Return:Yeah, no problem. Just before we do go just before we close it out, is there anything that you want to talk about that we may have missed? In the interview? I've covered a lot I realised but I want to make sure that I give you guys a platform just in case something sort of come up at the back of your minds. And your thought hotbed mentioned that just just to sort of make sure we get that promoted or signposted.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:Come try and find us at a convention this year. We're gonna go to a bunch of them. So look out for the nerds in denim jackets with cut sleeves. Epic levels on the back. Yeah, so
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:plan Come Come recently, our Gary Cohn gamehole con again, Dragon Con we do every year, potentially.
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:Momo con North Texas RPG con Gen Con, come find us.
Snyder’s Return:All right. Well,
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:we'd love to meet you.
Snyder’s Return:I'm sure everyone would love to come and meet you too. I guess and I'll be in the Events tab in your on your web page. On your website. Yep. All right, all that stuff there through the link in the description below. So scroll down again, for for the final time. Thank you so much for joining me. I'd love to get you back on the show. It's been an absolute pleasure getting to understand more about you how you got into it, your influences, and everything that we can look forward to both now and in the future from Epic levels.
Dragon Warrior - Epic Levels:Thank you so much for having us. Yes, thank
Tiger Wizard - Epic Levels:you rock on.
Snyder’s Return:Thanks for listening. If you'd like to learn more about the show, then go to www dot Snyder’s return.squarespace.com. Alternatively, you can find us over on Twitter. At return Schneider. We have a link tree link in the description of this episode. And if you want to support us, come and join us over on Patreon and we also have a Discord server. Please leave us a review because we'd love to learn how to improve the channel and provide better content out for for those who are listening until we until we speak again. Thank you