Find us on:
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Find us on:
Twitter https://twitter.com/ReturnSnyder
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/snyders_return/
Linktree https://linktr.ee/snydersreturn
Adam Powell (00:03.207)
Hello and welcome to Snyder's Return, a Table-Top Roleplay podcast. My guest today is a shining, no, a radiant star of the TTRPG community, guiding and crafting stories drawn from the cosmos above and from the heart within. From producing island hopping adventures to kickstarting romances, she has not yet reached her peak, but creates a safe space, a citadel for us to engage and become a collective within. It is an absolute pleasure to welcome TTRPG game designer,
Taylor Navarro (00:25.222)
and it
Adam Powell (00:32.191)
content creator, actual play producer, and creative laureate, Taylor Navarro to the show. Taylor, thank you so much for joining me.
Adam Powell (00:48.831)
What?
Adam Powell (00:54.127)
And it is all your work and that is the reason why I've asked you to come on and join me for a chat, the interview today to go through some of your incredible work and your achievements and the recognition you've received for those things. But before we dive into all of that, Taylor, how did you get into tabletop role playing games, please?
Taylor Navarro (01:13.31)
Okay, so every time I tell this, I actually realize there was a step before the thing that I've spoken about. So we start in year four or fourth grade for Americans with a little girl who liked to write stories in English. Who was encouraged to do that. And at the same sort of time, her stepdad was very into war games and had nobody to play with.
And so I was the only one who ended up playing with him. So I had a start in war games. And as I kind of grew up, I loved board games and all those kind of stuffs. One of my favorite stories is when me and my sister were playing risk with my dad. And we started taking his men hostage and crafting little narratives so that way he couldn't keep putting armies back on the board.
And from there I kind of took a break from gaming and became a fan fiction writer and a fangirl in my teen years as you know, women are, well, people are one to do. And from there, like I started like venturing into different fandoms and I started watching a YouTube channel called Drawfee who had a mini series called Dungeons and Drawfee which was like a choose your own story thing. But I was on the Discord at the time and people were like, this is not Dungeons and Dragons, please stop calling it Dungeons and Dragons.
we will run Dungeons and Dragons for you so you know what it is. And obviously being British, I kind of like seen Dungeons and Dragons referenced on American shows, but you know, and it's like, that is like a completely alien concept to me. I have no idea what that means or why these people are being seen in a show in a certain light. So it's like, yeah, sure. I'll try Dungeons and Dragons. I like telling stories, you know? This was just at the end of my fan fiction era. And...
I was in the game and I was like, oh, this is a bit much for me. But then somebody else was like, let me try it, GMing for you a different way. With like much more railroady way than like a bunch of new players being thrown in the sandbox. And I found that I loved it. Like my first proper character was a Tabaxi and I liked leaning into that cat thing of like.
Adam Powell (03:21.043)
Hmm.
Taylor Navarro (03:30.354)
licking things. I shouldn't lick. My constitution was my dump stat and I was making con roles all the time where I was like, and like, slurring things over. And that was how like I investigated as I think I was a bard with the high investigation. So I'm kind of snowballed from there and that like I was playing every Sunday and changed groups. I started
Adam Powell (03:52.892)
Hmm.
Taylor Navarro (04:00.734)
Hang on. I changed groups and then I helped one of my friends from my previous group with a charity, with a charity supplement for the DMs Guild, which I was project managing on that. I had no idea how to make a D&D supplement, but my friend wanted to do a charity thing for the NAACP. I wanted to help them and from there I learned how to edit.
Adam Powell (04:03.208)
Yeah.
Adam Powell (04:13.727)
Hmm.
Taylor Navarro (04:26.102)
So then I bullied my DM into writing for me so I could edit it and put it on the DM skills and we could split it. And then from there I became an artificer in our home game. And my DM was like, Taylor, just write up these magic items that you're creating. You don't need me to do it. You know how to do it better than me because you edit. And I was like, okay. So I did. And then I was like, oh, I like designing things. Oh, I love creating things. This is like...
Adam Powell (04:28.511)
I'm out.
Taylor Navarro (04:54.082)
writing fan fiction for like a world and an adventure that people get to interact with more deeply. Oh, this is very, very fun. And then I just decided not to stop and I've kept going and I've kept going. And now I'm here.
Adam Powell (05:13.459)
And here is an amazing place to be. And as you say, you haven't stopped. But before we do keep going, anyone inspired by that, where can they go to find you on social media, on the internet, and all those various places and spaces you may inhabit?
Taylor Navarro (05:31.901)
Before we do keep going, anyone inspired by that, where can we go to find you in the first year? Do you internet through any of those various places and stations in the world? So my Twitter is at TaylorAnneNX. So that's my Twitter handle. You can also go to Tayl
Which is where you'll find links to all of my other things. I do have a tumblr You could find it somewhere on my website if you look hard enough If you want to see me fangirl about Dimension 20 over there Or if you want to see me fangirl about ties that bind which is an actual play of the corrupted on Twitter Like I'm a fan of things. I continue to be a fan of things But also on both platforms, I talk about my work in different aspects long form versus short form So if you want to see me do things on the internet
I guess Twitter or Tumblr or like keep checking my website every like two to three months says something new.
Adam Powell (06:22.683)
Well, I will make sure there are links to those and your itch and any kickstart project you're associated with and all the DM scale products you are associated with down in the description below. So please scroll down, follow those links and support Taylor. Taylor quick sidebar fan fictions. What were your favorite or favored fandoms to be a part of just before we move on?
Taylor Navarro (06:46.229)
and your products are associated with. Down in the description, want to please go down, follow us and support Taylor. Taylor, quick, just a quick one. I am fiction news. What were your favourite or favoured fandoms in your part of the group before we moved on? So I am one of those people that I was in one fandom and then when I felt like I didn't belong there anymore, I moved on to the next one. So...
as a typical British teenager in the early 10s. I was in the Harry Potter fandom before we knew that J.K. Rowling was a TERF. And when I was done with that, because trans rights are human rights, and I moved on to Welcome to Night Vale, which is a horror radio show podcast. And from there, I moved on to Drawfee.
And then Drawfee was kind of like the end of my fandom hopping era as I moved into tabletop RPGs, D&D specifically, and then branching out to more indie stuff.
Adam Powell (07:38.215)
Well, fair enough. Well, thank you for that. So moving away from fandoms into tabletops then, you became in self-taught editing, became an editor and have been in
Taylor Navarro (07:45.518)
became a self-taught editor? No, no, I am not self-taught. I do need to shout out people who put me where I am. So in the first project I did, the Book of Lost Magica is on the DMs Guild. It is one of the products that, I think it's 99% of it goes to the NAACP. Alison Huang, also known as Drusilian, was one of the editors on that who...
Adam Powell (07:55.711)
release.
Taylor Navarro (08:13.026)
held me by the hand and showed me the SRD, like and taught me all of the basics on how to edit for that. And then the combined efforts of Laura Hosbrunner, Sadie Lowry, Hannah Rose. Yeah, back in a few years ago on Twitter, they used to post editing stuff all the time, like tips and tricks and how to do it. And I followed them because I was looking for more women in the industry and they were sharing knowledge. And I just booked.
Adam Powell (08:25.479)
team.
Adam Powell (08:33.142)
Yes.
Adam Powell (08:39.932)
Mm-hmm.
Taylor Navarro (08:42.582)
marked a bunch of their blog posts, like a bunch of their tweets. And I used it and compiled it all into like a big like a word document for myself that I reference to this day when I'm editing. So not self-taught, I was very lucky that there were people in the industry willing to share their knowledge and that is how I developed that skill set.
Adam Powell (09:04.319)
Well, you have joined them amongst the inspirational women and people within the community. So it's such an amazing sort of transition from sort of student to mentor or laureate. And we'll touch on that shortly. But moving from fandom to sort of self-generated things, you have created your own games, which can be found on itch and other places. And you've also worked on official D&D products.
Taylor Navarro (09:12.898)
Thank you.
Adam Powell (09:33.439)
and spin-off products moving into AP. So what has it been like sort of navigating this creative space and having all these different creative outputs?
Taylor Navarro (09:51.052)
What are your different thoughts on this?
Taylor Navarro (10:11.714)
published, like a company piece. So, sorry, I just wanted to clarify that, like, for the listeners. Could you repeat the question, please?
Adam Powell (10:15.795)
See ya.
Adam Powell (10:20.509)
Of course, of course.
Yeah, so you have all these many and creative outputs. What has it been like sort of turning your hand to each of them? Say your game creation for Constellation and Crafting, Dice of Life, and so on and so forth. What has it been like to be a game designer or creator?
Taylor Navarro (10:44.558)
Being a game designer after being an editor is difficult but also so much easier. So when I'm designing for like Dungeons & Dragons products because I'm so familiar with the ruleset, because as an editor you have to look at it with like a critical mind, I find that making things for that is quite easy because I know everything so well and what I don't know, I know where to go and look it up and research it.
going into the indie stuff was very kind of like scary for me in a way, because it's like, okay, there are no more guidelines. I make the rules and making the rules is fun, but it's also a little bit daunting because you're like, okay, I need to make the rules in a way that sounds very distinctly different from D&D, but is also clear and concise because one of my things is like, I love one page games and you'll see that because I've got like a whole bunch of one page games.
because you have to very clearly convey the rules and the concept. And there's just no space to kind of go on little brain tangents, you know? Because people won't want, most people don't want to pick up games that are too difficult to play. So you have to convey your ideas very like...
Succinctly is the word that I'm looking for. So it's interesting because there are, like you could go away and you could look at textbooks on game design. I don't do that. I design games from, I guess, the heart, which sounds a bit silly to say. But it's very much a case of, you know, what do I want to make?
Adam Powell (12:33.19)
the
Taylor Navarro (12:39.902)
What do I think is fun? Like, Constellation Crafting Chaos mode was something. So when I'm in a TTRPG session, while I'm listening to other people, I like to fidget. And I always try and roll my dice to the highest number. And then I'll just leave them there and I'll pick up the next one because I'm a dice dragon and I have loads of them. So it keeps me occupied. And I was like, okay, what if there's a game where you have to roll to the highest number?
what if it was a game that you had to roll to the highest number fast because the more people that are there, the trickier it becomes to keep track. And it's like this whole chaotic thing of like, you know, when like you're talking with your friend and you're like, oh, what if we did this? What if we did this? What if we did this? And it's like this really like hyping each other up world building that sometimes happens in a game or like planning for a session. I was like, okay, I want to take that feeling that goes
that kind of I associate personally with my dice because of like when that happens versus when I'm rolling my dice to the highest number and I'm gonna combine it and I'm gonna make it into a game and I'm gonna make it a one page game because it's for a one page game jam and also it fits this theme of like something very brief but something very fun and it's very intense. I think the game, the longest it's lasted is 15 minutes because...
Adam Powell (13:55.519)
Hmm.
Taylor Navarro (14:04.918)
during one of the scenes where you pause the game and you discuss a world building thing, two people were having a disagreement and because we couldn't come to a decision, it bumped up the time by a lot. But the shortest it was a total of five minutes, including the pauses. But yeah, with game design, I kind of just...
Adam Powell (14:17.811)
Ha ha ha.
Adam Powell (14:22.535)
Really.
Taylor Navarro (14:32.718)
go with what I think would be fun for other people to play. And I often try and like, convey my own experiences through like, not only like just the mechanics of my game, but like the way that I structure my team around it, like the length of the game and other bits like that. That a lot of thought goes into it. It's like a puzzle. It's like a really fun puzzle. Sorry, I realize I'm rambling, but like.
Adam Powell (14:54.687)
Yeah.
Adam Powell (14:59.16)
No, not at all. No, no, no.
Taylor Navarro (15:00.73)
My break goes, ah, how do I do this? And it's like, oh, well, it's a little bit of this and a little bit of that. And I think the main thing, like for listeners to kind of take away from my ramblings, I'm making it up as I go along. And I feel like a lot of game designers are also doing like that will be inspired by like media and other games and like our own ideas of what would be fun. But TTRPGs is just playing pretend.
And the people who are making the guidelines for you are literally just making them up. And I am one of those people who's just making it up as I go along.
Adam Powell (15:36.567)
Happy with that. Happy. Oh, happy with that. And you mentioned there things from the heart. So if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to touch on your current Kickstarter campaign for Not Yet, which is a romantic duet GM-less experience for two players. Where was the inspiration from that? How is the Kickstarter going? What's it like to have broken through so many of the pieces?
Taylor Navarro (15:55.386)
the GM-less experience for the key players. Where was the inspiration from that? How was the kickstart going? And what's it like to sort of work?
Adam Powell (16:05.532)
stretch goals effectively.
Taylor Navarro (16:07.99)
So the Kickstarter ended a couple of days ago and when I say I am absolutely like in shock blown away by the positive response, so not yet was inspired by a couple of things. My first thought around this game was what if there was a game where you had to like roll and match dice, the number of the dice had to match the other person's for the cool thing to happen. And I was like...
And I was thinking about that and then I was like, ah, this could be like a romantic thing, like ships passing in the night, that kind of thing. Just like How I Met Your Mother, I don't know if people have seen it as an American sitcom. And it's about like a man called Ted who's trying to find the love of his life essentially. He wants to settle down, grow old and have kids. And it's his misadventures in love and the surrounding cast as well.
And there's this mysterious mother figure, because he's telling these stories to his kids. His kids and there's like a yellow umbrella. And I could take or leave the rest of the series, but the yellow umbrella was fascinating to me and how it kept changing hands between Ted and his future wife. But they never met each other, like one of them would leave it behind at a club and the other one would pick it up. And then like, like it gets forgotten in places and found and it's this idea of
falling in love with somebody without actually having met them and then when you see them with this symbolic item, you know, oh this is the person that I want to be with even if I don't know them yet. And I was like, that's really cute, we could turn that into a TTRPG because of the tropes of like, you know when you get really frustrated in the movies because people are running around trying to find each other and they're just missing the other person and you're like, just turn around, just turn around, he's right behind you!
Adam Powell (17:55.571)
Yeah.
Taylor Navarro (18:01.438)
What if you did that intentionally with one of your friends though? It was kind of like my thought on that. And it's like building this romantic tension like a bully pulpit star crossed in a way, which is also like another kind of inspiration. And I don't know, it's a deep cut. If anyone's seen the movie August Rush with Freddie Highmore in it, like his parents in the movie have that kind of, they keep going to the same place to meet.
Adam Powell (18:04.735)
Hmm.
Taylor Navarro (18:28.662)
but like they're going on the wrong days and just missing each other and that kind of thing. And I'm just like as a fan of romance because I like it when people fall in love and are happy in that way. I was like, ah, that's lovely. Like people like to flirt with their friends like in like whatever TTRPG campaign you're playing. What if we just focus on that on that first bit? What if we really honed in? Because then it could be like a lead in for people's backstories.
Adam Powell (18:48.808)
Hmm.
Taylor Navarro (18:58.042)
or if people just want to make a romantic drama or a romantic comedy because they don't see themselves in it. That is something that they can also do. And I thought it would be fun, I think, because at the end of the day, the inspiration, it was something that I thought would be fun to do. And it's the kind of game I want to play because we are now in rough layout in terms of where the game is on the timeline. And the game is...
Adam Powell (19:07.043)
Yeah.
Adam Powell (19:23.853)
Yeah.
Taylor Navarro (19:26.738)
The core game is done and I want to play it so bad. I know you should make games that you want to play. But all of my other games, for example there's a game I have called Family Album. I have never played that game. I will never play that game. For reasons, but not yet as a game that I'm like, oh.
Adam Powell (19:31.684)
Ha ha
Taylor Navarro (19:48.046)
I need to play this right now who is free. Oh wait, nobody actually knows what the rules are yet, except for the other people on the team. Right, I'll just have to wait. I'll just have to wait. But we hit all of our stretch goals. And I'll be honest, there was a point that I didn't think that we would, just because this was my first ever Kickstarter. It's a small game. I was like, a thousand pounds is more money than any of-
Adam Powell (20:10.655)
Hmm.
Taylor Navarro (20:17.598)
my games possibly combined has ever made, not including like the third party projects that I've been on. So I was like, I had faith in my community that we would fund, but I wasn't sure that we would hit all the stretch goals. And the people in the TTIPG industry and community at large really rallied and helped me, like helped promote the work.
Adam Powell (20:25.459)
Yeah.
Taylor Navarro (20:45.638)
And we did it and oh, this is going to be such a good product. I'm so excited and I'm very, very grateful to like Fiona over at what am I rolling and Mark J over at Apokromatic Unlimited and every single person who like boosted my project to their newsletters to like get it out there. Cause like, I mean, speechless, I think it's at the end of the day.
And you're like, I want to make something. And people are like, yes, we want you to make this thing. And that is so heartwarming as an indie creator. Absolutely. And the second, the journey is fantastic. But you've also got a fantastic voice joining you on the show.
Adam Powell (21:23.123)
Absolutely. And second, the Fiona is fantastic. But you've also got a fantastic voice joining you on the project as well that listeners may have heard from some other well-known, absolutely incredible podcast. What was it like to bring on Aaron as one of the stretch
Taylor Navarro (21:47.23)
Oh, sorry. Aaron. Honestly, I found gold a lot when Aaron said yes. So Aaron Katana says of all my fantasy children podcast fame, I met him at Big Bad Con in 2022. So the first time I'd kind of been to an American con because he was one of the other POC scholars on the track. And I was I was that bubbly. I want to call myself a little kid, but I was 25 at the time.
Like going and trying to meet all of the other scholars because they are my peers and I think that games are best made with people at your level, you know So I met Aaron like started listening to his podcast. Like I thought it was great. I love his voice He's such a funny and kind guy. I saw him again at Big Bad Con in 2023 and so when we were kind of looking at not yet, I was like
for accessibility reasons, because not everyone learns by reading things. Some people really struggle with that. Um, audio books are really, really good. It's either audio books or short how-to YouTube videos. Um, and I was like, well, this is kind of inspired by this game is inspired by romance novels. It'd be great to have, um, an audio book version of it as like, as like our first major stretch goal. Who would I want to voice that? I know Aaron.
Adam Powell (22:55.525)
Yeah.
Taylor Navarro (23:12.314)
I like, I'll ask, I'll shoot my shot and be like, hey, do you want to do this weird project with me? And Aaron, being an absolute sweetheart, said yes. And his budget was something that like his price point was something that we could work into the budget. And I was like, perfect, we're going to do this. And this was something that I really, really wanted. I wanted the excuse to work with Aaron. I wanted the audio book because...
Adam Powell (23:19.443)
Ha ha ha!
Taylor Navarro (23:40.202)
Like for example, both of my younger siblings struggle with reading TTRPGs, so it's either I teach them or I put them to a YouTube video house. So being able to be like, hey, siblings, listen to this. This is a game that I made. What do you think is something that is very important to me personally? So this was like when I say a dream come true, like honestly, again.
Adam Powell (23:48.596)
Hmm.
Taylor Navarro (24:08.474)
fangirl, could not keep my cool, did a little dance in my living room, I then wrote a very professional email back, as is the British way. Exactly, exactly.
Adam Powell (24:10.069)
Ha ha
Adam Powell (24:18.615)
Oh, very restrained and professional. Mm-hmm. Stiff upper lip and all that sort of good stuff. So having sort of delved in deep into your own Kickstarter project, worked with these incredible people in Fiona, Aaron, and others that we've mentioned. And those that we haven't mentioned are also clearly incredible as well. So congratulations to you and the entire team on your Kickstarter.
What has it been like stepping away from the game design and being part of a production team for an actual play with respect to Tales of Sina Yuna? What was that like?
Taylor Navarro (25:00.599)
What was that? So, Tales for Sina Una is... So it has had actual plays and I am actually involved in behind the scenes.
Taylor Navarro (25:13.462)
production stuff for actual plays. But what Tales of Sina Una is, is it's a pre-colonial D&D, like it's a pre-colonial Philippines, like D&D adventure anthology. So this is the sequel to Islands of Sina Una, which is a setting book. And so this was my first official time in like a producer or project manager role. And it has been the-
biggest learning experience because before I've always kind of been doing project management in a very volunteer based role basically like on what do you need, how can I help kind of thing, offering assistance where I can see that people might need help. But this one is like, okay, you are doing the role, you are doing all of the project management, you would like kind of do.
all of the overview, you're responsible for hiring, which is the first time I'd ever had to kind of like think about who we would bring onto a project. And then I'm also helping out with like promotion and stuff, which includes like liaising with various podcasts for actual plays when the book is ready for release. And it is very, very close. You know, when
Adam Powell (26:30.108)
Yeah.
Taylor Navarro (26:37.138)
Okay, I'm gonna make myself sound a little bit bad. You know when there's a lot of responsibility for the first time, like you go into like a job for the first time and you're like, oh, there is like a big weight on my shoulders because I don't want to mess this up. For me as a producer for Tales from Cine, you know, there is a huge weight on my shoulders of-
Adam Powell (26:39.764)
Thanks.
Adam Powell (26:51.8)
Yeah.
Taylor Navarro (27:01.578)
I want to get this book out to a good quality because the writers did such incredible jobs designing their adventures and I can't wait for them to be showcased on actual plays and I can't wait for the backers to get their hands on these adventures because some of them have just left me jaw drops. I can't give spoilers. But you know, it's just kind of like, and then the potential afterwards for what the GMs can do.
Adam Powell (27:18.943)
Hmm.
Taylor Navarro (27:28.098)
can do with them going forwards is amazing. And being responsible for making sure that these adventures are like preserve the author's voices and go out into the world as something very unique is a huge responsibility that I'm doing my best to kind of live up to and do my best for. So yeah.
But also I feel like this gives permission for people to be nervous in their first time in a big role. Because the issue with TTRPGs, and this is my personal hot take that I'll defend, like I'll die on this hill, is that learning how to do the roles, if you don't come from another industry that has a similar role, and you're going and you're entering a role through TTRPGs and TTRPGs alone, which a lot of us are.
Adam Powell (28:18.047)
Hmm.
Taylor Navarro (28:24.502)
There is no formal like learning opportunities. Like you can do a game design course at university, but it's not going to be like the game design that you actually do in the industry. Like there is no formal way. There's no one who's going to be like, this is how you write for D&D. This is how you write a like ability check.
There are like informal blog posts and stuff, but you don't know they exist unless you go and do the research and find them It's like you don't know how to do your taxes or like for example for Kickstarter Bringing it back a little bit is like when I was trying to fill out the like kind of application form There was like a question that completely stumped me and I went around and asked everyone that I knew and everyone had different Answers on how to do it and I was like, I don't want HMRC to come and attack me because I did it wrong
Adam Powell (28:54.812)
Yeah.
Taylor Navarro (29:19.506)
And so yeah, being a producer was really scary because I was kind of like, this is my first time doing this formally, like I'm in charge of people getting paid, I am getting paid for this. And there is no formal way to learn that unless you're going to go away and do like extensive research and then try and figure out what people online are telling you how to do and then like turn and fit that into what you actually have to do.
Adam Powell (29:31.303)
Yeah.
Adam Powell (29:46.536)
Yeah.
Taylor Navarro (29:48.866)
So yeah, my hot take is that there is no formal way to learn things other than mentorship and like figuring out like researching and then trying to make that apply. So there are a lot of things that a producer has to do and it's okay if you decide to take on a project management creative lead producer role in TTRPG game design and you get overwhelmed and intimidated because you're like
Oh, I didn't realise there was this much to do. That's okay. I'm giving you, I'm giving you listener, the one of you who's like, oh, thank goodness someone else feels this way too. I'm like, I see you, I give you permission to feel that way.
Adam Powell (30:19.583)
Hmm.
Adam Powell (30:31.319)
And if no one else takes, I will take that. And I will take that on and say thank you for that. Speaking of mentorships and sort of how to help, there has been a collective brought together, a storytelling collective that has gathered to try and help people produce works to the standards and generate these things, the storytelling collective, of which you have been named as a creative laureate.
What has that been like to take on such a... I am actually gonna say prestigious title because it's had some fantastic people take on that role in the past.
Taylor Navarro (31:10.582)
Oh, 100% definitely a prestigious title and something that when I received the email saying that I was going to be one of the laureates this year, I was absolutely stunned because there are so many amazing people in the TTRPG industry doing like so many interesting things. Last year, my friend Lila was one of the creative laureates.
was selected for her Kickstarter jukebox, which is a karaoke TTRPG musical game, which is so different. Like, literally the mechanics of it, you sing, like you have to choose a song that is relevant and like to the narrative that you're trying to tell, and it changes the story. It's like the...
level of game design that goes into that and being able to communicate that and like it's gone through loads of play testing and it's been so successful and I was like that's incredible yes you deserve to be a creative laureate Laila you did it you did incredible last year and the Kickstarter did incredible and I'm very proud of Laila Fujiwara and all of the work that she has done um but so when I so when I got it I was shocked because I am like
I again, I'm kind of just... What is the correct term? Like, I don't want to say bobbing along because then I'll start singing the song from Bed, Knops and Broom 6. But, yeah, you know exactly what I mean. But I'm kind of making my way, figuring it out. I have some very good mentors who are kind of guiding me. But I guess...
I'm in my kind of weird indie era. I started very much in D&D 5u territory and I'm kind of straying more and more towards indie stuff, making my own games, running Kickstarter for my own games. So when I applied to be a creative laureate, I was like, Hey, I want to do, I want to make a zine, but I want to make a zine at a con with loads of people and do like this big community thing. Cause one of the things that is really important to me,
Adam Powell (33:08.489)
Hmm.
Taylor Navarro (33:31.486)
and is becoming more and more important to me is the sense of like community. Because game designs, game experiences are supposed to be shared. Like we create even solo games, like it's a shared experience between the game designer and the person playing, or it's people who have played and then they're comparing their experiences. Um, but what often happens in TTRPGs, especially for freelancers of which I am one, is we get our assignments.
Adam Powell (33:35.7)
Hmm.
Taylor Navarro (33:57.034)
We go our separate ways, we write our part of the game, and then it's given to one other person who then edits it all and makes it a cohesive thing. It's all very segmented. And I don't like that. It's very lonely. And I think when you're lonely and you're making a game that's supposed to be enjoyed by a group of people, that is not correct.
Adam Powell (34:05.587)
Hmm.
Taylor Navarro (34:23.286)
That is not like, it just, it feels wrong in my soul. But I mean, it has its benefits like from remote working, like the barrier of entry to game design is the lowest it's ever been. Um, and that is fantastic. But also I don't feel like game designer should feel so isolated. Um, so one of the things that I'm trying to do this year is really focus on like the communal aspect of game design.
Adam Powell (34:36.031)
Hmm.
Taylor Navarro (34:50.862)
I was like, yeah, I want to go to a con and sit down with a stack of paper, some pens, some ink stamps, and just over the course of like 72 hours, create a game with whoever has five minutes to sit down with me. You know, it's like, oh, you want to play test and you've got an hour free? Let's play with what we've already got. You want to create an NPC? Come and sit down and just write out what this character is. Oh, you want to like do a cover?
Fantastic! This is kind of what the game is evoking right now. What can you whip up in 20 minutes? And that is what I kind of approached the storytelling collective with. And they were interested in seeing how my journey in community is going. And that all started with Chef's the Party, which is a game I released in January, where I was like, ah, I want to make a game about cooking with your adventuring party.
Adam Powell (35:22.131)
Hmm.
Adam Powell (35:38.376)
Hmm.
Taylor Navarro (35:43.358)
I can't make this by myself because I'm supposed to be cooking with an adventuring party. So here are the base instructions. I'm going to go out, find some of my peers and be like, hey, do you want to make recipes for different systems to showcase how the game works? And then also I've got people who are cooking with me in this like TTRPG mini game. So oh, sorry.
Adam Powell (36:05.481)
Yeah.
Taylor Navarro (36:11.422)
I keep going on tangents, but bringing it back. Thank you, thank you. But yeah, bringing it back. It is important to me to showcase how we can put the kind of communal aspect back in game design. And I am very grateful to the Storytelling Collective for giving me the opportunity in the spotlight to kind of show my journey on that. Will I complete it in a year? To be seen.
Adam Powell (36:14.235)
It's so good. It is all good.
Taylor Navarro (36:40.418)
but it is something that I am working very hard towards because I want it for myself and I want it for my peers. Absolutely, and it's something that would definitely be keeping people in the track. That sounds like a survey. The project will be following with you. So, expanding beyond the community, I think, is a really important one. What else?
Adam Powell (36:47.679)
Yeah, absolutely. And it's something we'd definitely be keeping a track of. That sounds like surveillance. A project will be following with you as it progresses. So expanding beyond the community aspects you mentioned there in game design, what else have you learned? Some of the biggest things you've learned, either as a game designer or a game master, in that respect, that you would like to share with others, but maybe haven't had the platform in that respect to share some advice.
Taylor Navarro (37:12.61)
Share was other than maybe having the platforming app to share some advice up until now. What's your requirement right now? Thank you. I think my big thing is for anyone who's interested in game design, but they're like, oh, I've never been a GM. I had never GMed before I started designing games. Even now, when I do play tests, I don't GM my own stuff. I get somebody else to do it because it helps.
Adam Powell (37:18.575)
up until this moment right now.
Taylor Navarro (37:40.758)
them and it helps me if I know whether they understood the stuff or not. But yeah, no, you don't have to be a GM to get into game design. You can just have ideas and write them down and figure out how to communicate them and then get other people to run it. I feel like there's this expectation sometimes of like, oh, you have to have done X, Y and Z before you can be a game designer.
That's not true. If you have played a single game that has a, like, I guess not even dice, because some games use like playing cards and tarot cards and generic tumbling towers. If you've played a game like that and you have an idea and you are able to write that idea down on a piece of paper, you are a game designer. That is, that is it.
I think in terms of that, in terms of like my one weird piece of advice, because people will tell you like all sorts of pragmatic things like, oh, this is how you do this, or this is how you could break into the industry. There is no one way to do it. Everybody's story is different. And you'll hear it from like people at all levels, like I'll tell you my story, but that's not going to work for you because it barely worked for me.
Adam Powell (38:40.569)
Alright.
Adam Powell (38:49.331)
Hmm.
Adam Powell (39:05.695)
Hmm. Ha ha ha.
Taylor Navarro (39:07.846)
Um, but it's true. It's, it's, it's true. We all came into this from so completely different walks of life. And that is because the TTRPG industry, as we understand it, is only about 20 years old. So we're like, it's very, very new still in terms of like how. Industries age, I guess. Um, so yeah, just make a game. You can do it. I believe in you.
Adam Powell (39:33.087)
Yeah, just go for it. We we both believe in you. We believe.
Taylor Navarro (39:36.746)
We believe in you, you can do this and you don't have to have any experience. You don't have to have written fan fiction or original fiction or like games or more like technical manuals. You don't have to have written one of those either. Like you can do it if you've got the idea in your head and the means to share it. We believe in you. That's where we're going with it. Yeah.
Adam Powell (40:00.031)
Absolutely, we believe in you, I think, is where we're going with that. So you are a actual play producer, you are a game designer, you are a Kickstarter, you are a content creator, creative laureate. You're incredibly, do you get downtime? What do you do away from the TTRPG space? Do you have time for you? Do you have time?
Taylor Navarro (40:27.455)
So I am a mother of two. I am a mother of two children who are both under the age of eight years old. So my downtime is usually playing video games or what would you call here to slay? It's like a card game but not quite. I do play trading card games with my
Taylor Navarro (40:52.458)
But when I kind of remove myself completely from gaming and I have a little bit of time to myself and I'm not like watching or listening to actual plays, I knit and crochet is my big thing. I'm getting really back big into colouring because I just find it very like cathartic and therapeutic. But TTRPGs pretty much encompasses my life outside of my kids. So... There's...
Adam Powell (41:18.387)
That's fine.
Taylor Navarro (41:19.582)
Not a lot, but it's all creative. I like creating things, whether it's just for myself or whether it's like as gifts for other people. All of my hobbies. You'll find I have made something.
Adam Powell (41:33.631)
Fair enough. Well, let me ask you a slightly different question then. So you have, you've played 5E, you've used other systems as a basis for games you've designed, you've sort of experienced other systems. What systems have you played that you really liked or what systems haven't you played yet that you would like to play? So games or game systems.
Taylor Navarro (42:06.084)
So yes, we do have a live system for games or games of games.
Taylor Navarro (42:20.99)
And I have never seen a game that nails the genre and the pacing so exactly. I've played it a couple of times over on the Desi's and Dragons Twitch channel. And when I say I had so much fun each time, because you draw a card and you're like, oh yeah, I've seen this in every single Christmas rom-com. Like they just get the tropes in there. So well, it's so well designed. I absolutely love that. That's the system that I enjoy.
I also really enjoy, again, by my friend Aman, it's a game called Even Dragons Are Trampled Before Us. It's a game where you play as horses and there's been a dragon invasion on the kingdom but the humans have run away scared, so it's up to the horses to defeat the dragons. It's a very silly game and it's like rolling dice pulls against one another. And this is actually one that I, this is like the only game that I've fully GMed.
Because I'm running like this anime style, like really dramatic horses like waving swords about with their teeth and using flags to like become wings and fly. And it's like this very silly like suspending belief and just leaning into like the, I guess like the whimsical side of what fantasy can be, which I really love. Games that I want to play?
Good Society because Regency, Romance and that kind of stuff. I like Romance with rules. I don't know if you can tell by the Romance games that I have made unplugged. But Good Society is a game that I really, really want to play. And I think I might have the opportunity to do that soon. So watch this space.
The Corrupted, so I'm listening to an actual play called Ties That Bind and The Corrupted is the system that they use for that. It's inspired by The Last of Us and The Walking Dead. And telling like, I don't know if other people do this, but sometimes I'll see something on the news and I'll be like, if this turned into a zombie apocalypse, how would I survive it? Like one of the formative books of my teen years is the Zombie Survival Guide and World War Z, those two books.
Taylor Navarro (44:38.918)
were really big for me. So getting to actually play a game that is based specifically around that zombie survival horror is something that I would really like to do. And then are there any other systems that I really want to try? Basically if there's a one-page game out there, I want to try it because they're so easy to just pick up and play, especially if you've got some players missing.
Adam Powell (45:01.595)
Nice.
Adam Powell (45:06.579)
Hmm.
Taylor Navarro (45:07.066)
So like, Lazies and Feelings is one that people are very well aware of that I would like to do. Oh gosh. There was a game I saw on Twitter like a couple of weeks back, and it was about being like, it was like a solo game where you pretend to be a lawyer but you're a cat, and you're like the pet of like a lawyer who's like overslept or something, so you've got to go and win a huge court case.
And I was like, and it's not a journaling game either, it's literally a solo role-playing game and there's like, you get extra points if you paste the room and meow as like your closing statement or something like that. And I was like, oh that sounds like so much fun! So yeah, basically any systems that are on a single page I probably want to play.
Adam Powell (45:54.399)
It's amazing, amazing. That cat one sounds a lot of fun. So if you do, let me know. Amazing. So we have talked about the work you have created, the work that you are ongoing, the work that is coming up, and all these sorts of good things, and sort of what you do outside. Is there anything at this point of the interview that we haven't discussed that you would like to bring up now, Taylor?
Taylor Navarro (45:58.375)
That one sounds a lot of fun. It does, doesn't it? I've got it bookmarked somewhere, I have to find it. So if you do, let me know. I will, I will. Amazing. So...
Taylor Navarro (46:24.798)
Oh my goodness. You know when you have so much going on, but so much of it is under NDA and you're like, ah, is there anything that I can actually talk about? And I think we've kind of covered everything that I am able to talk about at this point. Uh, I will say that, um, when I started 2024, um, I didn't have a lot of freelancing work and I was like, that's okay.
2024 for me is going to be the year of gaining experience. I'm going to run my own projects. You know, I'm going to do my own things and I'm going to gain the skills necessary to get to my dream job. Because my dream job is like being a creative lead for like a big IP and like making like that thing that loads of people want a reality because I'm nothing if not a support character and I want to make people's dreams come true.
Adam Powell (47:17.497)
Yeah.
Taylor Navarro (47:24.182)
So there is a lot going on for me this year that I can't talk about because as I've started gaining experience people have started looking and recognizing and bringing me on to things that I can't talk about yet so please be sure to follow me on social media because when I do get the opportunity to talk about them oh I am not going to shut up like there are some exciting things that are happening and I'm so honored.
that I get the opportunity to do them.
Adam Powell (47:55.391)
All right, well, so we can support you now and in the future when all these exciting things that you are not allowed to discuss at this point in time, at time of recording do come out. And I'll be looking out for them myself. Where can we find you on social media and on the Internet, please, Taylor?
Taylor Navarro (48:12.958)
So my website is tail That is where you'll find links to all of the stuff that I'm currently doing, all of my previous work and all of my social media profiles. If you're not bothered with websites you can go to twitter.com because it is still twitter.com to me and find me at tailarnx.
Adam Powell (48:43.335)
Well, I will put those links down the description below, along with some of the things we've spoken about during the course of this interview. Taylor, I would love to get you back on the show. In the future, once more of these projects come out, once some of these big new excitement, big new announcements, sorry, big exciting announcements, I'm too excited to say the sentence, come out. If you'd be willing to come back and join me, of course.
Taylor Navarro (49:03.36)
I'm very glad you're here. Me too, me too. It's been a pleasure to be here and have you all here. I would absolutely love to. This has been a lovely chat. Thank you so much for having me.
Adam Powell (49:13.499)
No, it's been a real pleasure. And yeah, we will definitely get that organized and sorted out. Taylor, thank you so much from the bottom of my heart for games from yours. So thank you so much for joining me today.
Taylor Navarro (49:22.506)
or games from yours. Thank you very much for joining. Thank you.