Hello, and welcome to snows return a tabletop role playing podcast. My guest today has funded a network to support all manner of tall tale and organised silliness. Whether you wish to visit different areas of space, take a high fantasy romp, or taking a noir drama and mystery, you can find them all in one place. When not busy dealing with a multitude of other bothers My guest is offering practical tips to use it your gaming table. It is an absolute pleasure to welcome Sean Howard of the Faber and folly network to the show. Sean, welcome to the show. Hi.
Sean Howard:It's great to be here. Adam. Thank you.
Snyders Return:Well, thank you for agreeing to come on. I've been a fan of some of the shows that you have on your on your network, some of which we'll we'll touch on shortly, if not sorry. But I'd love to hear more about you and how you got involved with audio drama and tabletop role playing games, please.
Sean Howard:So I that's a great question. I think there's two different stories there. So I grew up playing, you know, d&d, you know, advanced to like the original. And in then I played it throughout my whole life, you know, but in periods like in university, then I started up a game. Post military was a fun experience. And it just was something I've always done. And then I sort of let it go, you know, when I started, you know, really having a career and a job and cetera. So it was really interesting to sort of come back to it over the past, like, literally the past year, I'd say I've been really coming back to it. And it's been a lot of fun.
Snyders Return:All right, so that was the sort of the tabletop side of things. And where does the audio drama? Where does that performance side come in.
Sean Howard:So that all comes out of my partner, Eli, who, in 2011, had an idea of creating a audio fiction podcast about a few ideas were floating around. And one of them was a fairy tale of a witch, who runs a house of healing. So it was sort of like Shrek meets house. At that time, I had some talk podcasts going on. I was like really big on that. And so we got a bunch of our friends together. And we created Alva Salix royal physician, which launched I think, in 2014. Way back was a long, long time and you know, recorded in our living room and our dining room and a variety of other places. And, and that was it for audio fiction, we I continue to dabble in podcasting a bit, but I was more into blogging and marketing and really boring stuff. And one day, you know, I think it was around 29. Like, literally four or five years later, I was walking by my partner Eli's computer and I saw this crazy, like, graph of these crazy numbers that we're climbing. And I was like, What is that? And he's like, I think it's Alba. And we're just sort of like, you know, gone on with our lives and, and audio fiction really started to take off, you know, a few years back. And so, my journey in audio fiction was entirely not my doing. Now I'm totally an instigator. I'm constantly creating new shows and getting in trouble for doing so. Yeah,
Snyders Return:it's so before we move on, just to make a decision, help somebody listening to make that distinction. What is the difference between an actual play and an audio drama podcast?
Sean Howard:I don't think there is one. That that isn't decided. That is a divisive statement for me to make because there are many in our industry who get all tied up in knots about defining. I believe that all all life plays all tabletop ly plays are audio fiction, they are audio drama. It's just a collaborative storytelling mechanism. Audio fiction, I define as any, any fictional story being told in an audio format, generally through podcasting, so I do differentiate a little between audio fiction and audio books, whereas an audio fiction will be more serialised smaller episodes but basically Audio fiction would be where one of our shows Alba's is a large cast. It's all written in advance. But then, you know we have the end of time and other bothers which is he trying to figure out how to play powered by the apocalypse for the first time and basically destroying every role. And then we have a podcast that is entirely improvised with comedy improvisers called civilised, and I think all three of those are audio fiction. All three of those are a lot of fun, immersive storytelling.
Snyders Return:All right, well, yeah, I can understand that, that standpoint and actually completely agree with you now that you've explained it in such a such a great way. So from Alba say, Lexan. You mentioned there sort of civilised and things? When did our proceedings become fatal and folly? And when did that really start to sort of take on some of the shows that I'd love for you to sort of expand on if that's alright.
Sean Howard:Yeah, I'd be happy to fable and folly. The name is relatively new. Shout out to Christy Bolton, one of my cast members who came up with the name and designed the logo, fable and folly started as an idea of a production company many years back. So it was we created a company basically to handle all of our growing number of productions and shows and work we're doing with with other shows. So but it wasn't named that and so about, I'd say less than a year ago, so we started fable and folly and the fable and falling network. And it so it's a very recent, like the the fable volley network side of things has been running for I think we're in our seventh month right now. So still very new. Hmm.
Snyders Return:Okay, well, in that seven months, you've sort of brought on a a number of different shows, as well as the ones you've you've created. So what is what is the aim? What is your aim for the fable of folly network.
Sean Howard:So I had a dream of wanting to even try and save those lines. Um, but I did. So one night, I was supposed to be doing a deliverable it was we had a show that had to get out, there was some marketing that had to be done, it had to do with dialogue at it, instead of doing all of that I, I wrote a manifesto as you do at one in the morning, and I was just procrastinating, and, but I was also frustrated, I was frustrated that I was surrounded. Like over these past three to four years, I have some of the most amazing relationships with some of the most unbelievably talented creators right in live play in drama, and just who are creating these amazing shows. And yet, the number of people who can make a living doing this is ridiculously infinitesimally small, like, it's less than 1%. And, and so I was sitting there about six or seven months ago, little longer than that now. And I was realising that this is the year where industry is coming in Hollywood is coming in money is coming in, we're seeing investment in new shows being created in all the genres. And what saddened me is most of the producers being paid to do that work are not coming from this community. They're coming from radio or other, you know, other areas. And it just hit me like, why can't those of us who are so good at this and we've created fan bases and amazing shows? Why can't we make a living doing this? And so that was basically what I created fable and folly, the network to as it's like vision, right? A world where producers can make a good living telling their stories is our vision. I I don't think I'm going to be able to crack that alone. But the idea was, what experiments could we run to generate revenue and support some of these creators so that they could devote more time to creating stories from live play to, you know, scripted to what have you.
Snyders Return:Absolutely. touching on the about not doing on your own? I've got something on the Fabian folly network that would help new podcasters actual play sort of podcast or any podcasters or really sell themselves and sort of help build their own sort of brand and podcast.
Sean Howard:Yes. So we're really big fans of open sourcing our journey. So if I would say there's a lot of writing and a lot of articles and things on our resources page. Like, for example, a few years ago, I said, I sat down and was like, there has to be a way to crack Patreon. We had a Patreon that like most shows, was just sitting at $20 A month every month, it was our, you know, our mom, Thanks, Mom, you know, some of our close friends. Right? But it wasn't growing like we would just, we hit this one number and that was it and I was I. And there was a myth out there that said, Oh, you have to be a big name. And and so I started looking into it. And I was like, I don't think that's true. So I basically open sourced our data, that's all still available, I still release our data, I show all of our experiments, there's a whole series on what works, what doesn't. So I'd say yes, we have a number of resources on our resources page, which we're designing to try and help others learn from what we're doing. And there's more I want to do there, there's there's some stuff in the works. But I'd say yeah, we're trying very hard to not just achieve this, but to share not just what we're learning, but what other producers and outfits are learning. So creating that network where we can because on our page, we share links to other resources as well that are really amazing.
Snyders Return:And you've also just having a look before you you've got a whole sort of page and section devoted to advertising and putting yourself at not just yourselves and the shows you are representing and affiliated with. But But oneself putting oneself out there more in an advertising sense. Has that also taught you a lot?
Sean Howard:Yeah, so favour and follow the network is basically right now, primarily an ad representation. vehicle, that's what it is. So they've evolved a network is not your traditional network where everyone's you know, I don't know, it's not like a commune. It's more like it's very business oriented. These are producers we've identified who have amazing shows who we connect with who we think can make significant revenue from advertising. Now, there's other aspects that we're working on as the network. But that's the primary vehicle of this network. And most of the work I'm doing day in and day out every day is focused on how can we change the way advertising is sold? Because it doesn't work for a lot of audio fiction, currently. And then how can we also change advertising? Like I want my producers to make a living, but I don't I don't know about you, but I'm tired of hosts pretending that they own a mattress and reading the same bullet points on every show. I listened to like, my my question was, we were some of the most creative people scrappy, we can do anything on very little money. What would happen if we could create the advertising and sponsorship spots the way we want it to in our world as part of our world with the characters, not the players, not the actors, not the producers, but the actual characters that our fans adore and love? And that has been the most inspiring part of this journey. I mean, we're still are you know, we made it over our first hurdle. We're growing really well. It's working well, but there's still some you know, hurdles to cross. But that part like having fans doing fan art about commercials that we're running is is for me a massive win. And it's really inspiring to the producers to realise they don't have to just run car ads, right? You don't have to go out there and join a cast and have these blaringly loud sorry guys horrible ads running you can create things that are of your world and get better money for it. So that's what we're trying to do.
Snyders Return:You know it's it's noble and brilliant and something I've enjoyed I listen to Dungeons and Dragons, which is is part of the fable folly, Faber folly network and absolutely enjoy it and how it's all going moving on from there. How did your professional relationship with rust development where did dm two GM sort of grew from there?
Sean Howard:Oh, I adore Ross. Ross is like my brother from another mother. uh how did our relationships start? Oh, I would love to hear Ross's answer to that. We I'm not 100% sure. I remember meeting Ross and his whole crew at pod con and they were just so delightful. And I you know, I think we knew of each other we'd interacted a little and and we just you know when you meet a group and or you meet someone and and you're just like it's just everything works you just you just want to help each other and everything's just easy that's what it's always been with with Russ and I Russ was very integral to launching fable volley network I you know, his he's not listed in our website as like an admin or anything but which maybe I should change but he like his ideas. Coming from radio around how to handle you know how to handle like all of our producers can still sell directly and take all the money, you know, and how to handle those kinds of arrangements. He's also assist in flight anyways, Russ and I now have had a relationship for quite a while. But really it started with, I guess, meeting and then slowly doing appearances on each other's show. So you know, I came on and spoiler alert, killed one of their characters in their show, you know, he's been on my show, he's run one shots, and it just kept going like that. And then I have a disease. As I've already mentioned, Adam, where I just keep starting shows, and Ross is a horrible enabler because he has so many projects on the go. So that's how the MT jam started. We started another show, I gotten a little bit less trouble because Eli didn't have to edit it.
Snyders Return:Ross's work ethic is phenomenal. I haven't spoken to him
Unknown:lievable
Sean Howard:he's put he put out 22 episodes this month 22.
Snyders Return:That's crazy. considering those what Dan to GM, there's Dungeons and Dragons facing fate that's just three involving Ross on his own Plus, the stuff he does for Dungeons and Dragons, the the Patreon and all that sort of stuff. It's, it's phenomenal. And obviously, you with your creative drive, should we say also put out a number of episodes and support so many great shows, things like I've got lycia Mars for the Amelia project and so many others that you guys are affiliated with the end of others and other the end of time and other brothers. I apologise. So why is it been likes or building that community around not only your own shows, but now sort of nurturing that sense of creativity amongst multiple How have you seen a positive feedback from that as well?
Unknown:Yeah. It's a lot of work. I don't
Sean Howard:know if past john knew exactly how much work it was going to be. But the benefits are amazing. But But Fabian folly network when I started, it was literally an experiment. I literally told all the people like I sent out I literally wrote a manifesto. What am I supposed to do some work and then I sent it without even really thinking to like my top 12 I just Russell's one of my first people, Carlotta Botox, I think wasn't and I just, you know, Amelia, we fixed space junk Mars, for all these people. I have great relation. I just sent it. And I expected most of them to just be like, yeah, cool. Shawn, are you okay? Because the indie community has traditionally been very much against monetization against commercialization, right? A lot of our indie community, I sadly and beautifully can say it's like, you know, those ezine creators that you go to like a cool part of a city. And they set up an ad hoc sort of festival with tables, and they're all selling their little$1 booklets. I mean, that's, that's where audio fiction comes from. And it's, it's a beautiful thing, but it's also a, a very, you know, we're better than capitalism, or we don't want to go there or, you know, don't want to sell out. So I was sort of surprised that so many of these creators wanted to or always willing to talk to me. And I was really, it was, I was touched that so many of them joined in, and were willing to go on this experiment. But it was basically an experiment. So because I didn't know, right, like we're trying to change the way advertising is sold, what it is that we're selling, like, there were just a lot of a lot of things that could not have worked. But watching. So the network is really structured around ads, like it's very clean, simple add representation. And yet, I called it a network. And I've often wondered, I don't know if that was a mistake, because some people I approach now like bigger shows, they're like, ooh, I don't know, if I want to join your network. I've had a bad experience. And I'm like, so we all are, but but there's something about the fact that it's even just called a network, that, that causes this collaboration to happen. I think it's, there's something about just being part of something that I think makes it easier for a producer to reach out to another producer. So you know, like, a here's like, here's something for anybody listening, if you have a live play, or any show and you want to grow your numbers, stop buying ads on Facebook, go watch my presentations, where I've tracked how much it costs to get a listener on Facebook and Twitter and just stop pouring your money down the drain. It does not work as well as you think it is. Because you're not measuring acquisition of listener. And when you do it's insane. And do an episode drop swap with someone do a collaboration. You drop an episode of their show on your feed with a little preamble to your listeners about What this is and why it's here, and then they do the same. And you can get up to a 10% transfer of audience that the other show doesn't lose any, you just gained 10% of their audience. And it is a powerful way. Because there anybody who listens gets to hear your story and get it connected to your characters, and then they want to listen to more, and they'll hit subscribe. That kind of thing, though, can be hard to approach someone, right? Because you don't know them. They don't know what an episode drop is, your show is smaller. And they're like, Well, why would I do this? still do it ask. But I think having a bunch of people belong to something has made that it's been neat to watch because I'm a big proponent of cross promotion. It's been neat to see it's not a requirement of the network. But it's been really neat to see how small producers have been able to approach big shows, which gives them a massive gain that small show, right? And then watching what the small shows offer the Big Show, it'd be like, an often the big shows like Yeah, no, I'll do it for you. Let's help you out. You're a good show. And, and that's what I love to see.
Snyders Return:No, it's it's an amazing sense of community. And I know, again, a Dungeons and Dragons being my reference. But when they had their summer, summer holiday, they they sort of put across an episode dropped a number of the shows on the network, and just off the top of my head, we we fixed space junk and a few of the others. Yep. And I was it was so good to just sort of listen in and learn. And you know, you're not affected from the regular listening because, you know, yeah, so again, they're coming back on completion of their their break, and we just have incredibly small podcast at the moment. But we've, again, started to reach out and be slowly approached by others. So you know, we're always looking to
Sean Howard:hitch Ross, he'll do an episode drop for anyone, he'll do a trade with you.
Snyders Return:I promise. I may just contact him on completion of this and name drop you to name drop him to
Sean Howard:Ross. Ross is actually it was so funny. It's funny. You mentioned in the summer, he did. But Russ from day one, Russ has been very involved in forming this network. So it's such a dear friend, and he's been so helpful. And so day one, he's like, let's do episode drugs. And, and a lot of people join the network had never done an episode drop. And they were, you know, some people treat their feet a little sacrosanct like, Oh, I don't know, it's, you know, it's beautiful and perfect. And it takes a while. So he's been, he's just been chomping at the bit for months now. And he's very happy that it's now happening. So
Snyders Return:it's certainly something that we as a, as a podcast, and me as the sort of dm slash interviewer, I guess, would definitely be sort of looking to grow and share and likewise support others. So you know,
Sean Howard:what exactly are they right now, we will definitely do a swap on dm to GM. That would be perfect match easy. But I think you should also approach Tom Jones and ask,
Snyders Return:I will, I will, I will take confidence in your in your words, and and do that later.
Unknown:If he slows you down, I'll buy your chocolate. Whatever I can ship to you. I will accept the
Snyders Return:offer of chocolate. So. So that's that's what's been happening recently. And so where? And it sounds like a similar question. But where are you going next with your creativity? What show Are you working on? Have you got anything just on the backburner to surprise surprise Eli with or somebody else? Because, as we've already mentioned, that the number of shows affiliate with the Fabian folly network, plus those who have supported you directly with the episode drops and things like that. And the shows you you've created yourselves. Have you got something that maybe a tabletop system you haven't played before? Or a new adventure? You're looking for a new avenue? You're looking to take it down?
Sean Howard:We have, we have some ideas? So Eli even has a couple ideas that are on the backburner that we recently pitched. Didn't didn't land anything. But you know, there's now opportunity right to to pitch show ideas to different players. But we're thinking, well, maybe we're so excited about it, maybe we try and create it. But I think the the challenge is that with the taking on the network growth, which has been just amazing to see and the opportunities, but it's basically eating up three to four hours out of my day. And you know, one of the reasons I started fading on volume was because we couldn't make a living doing this. So my day contract plus now how much time it's taking to put into the network basically means I can't help dialogue at it or some of the other things that I would do. So so we're in a bit of a crunch right now just maintaining because we have Alva Looks that we're working on season three, we have the accent crown, that's also on the album sales feed, we have the end of time and other bothers which is putting out we're putting out again, we're putting up, whoo, where we're releasing again. And then we have civilised, which is in release. So those four shows are all completely. They're all completely sound designed, and custom music, all by UI. So we're sort of at max. But my hope is that we do have some things we're talking about. So some of the casts have approached me that idea, and I'm like, if you want a dialogue at it, and that usually stops them, right. There's any of us who have put together podcasts, everyone's like all dialogue at it. And then, you know, when they realise how many hours it takes to press 20 minutes,
Snyders Return:it's it's more of the work than I think some people realise, although some people like the sound of that creative control. And then yeah, chopping out Rs, crunching of packets, and sort of finding the music to tie in what's happening is is not as straightforward as some people realise. I
Sean Howard:tweeted the other day that I did do a dialogue at it. As I do it for the special episodes that we just dropped between dungeons and end of time, we did a one shot, we recreated one of my favourite video games Darkest Dungeon as a one shot was so fun. But I said, Oh, I'll dialogue at it for the rest because he's doing all the design on it. And I tweeted, because every time I forget, like, this is what I do. And I was like, I sat down to dialogue had it and I was like, Well, why is it taking longer than 30 minutes to dialogue, edit a 30 minute thing. My brain just every time my brain completely doesn't understand that this does not happen in real time of output. It's
Snyders Return:it's a jungle of such a jumble of times. I can sympathise with you absolutely sort of listening through the same sections of audio to make sure you've paired it up and then affects the music, then timing spacing. You've given me shivers here, and I've got my own episodes to it at some point.
Sean Howard:Yeah. So nothing new coming right now. We are bringing on a bunch of new shows into the network right now. But I'm I'm starting to put the brakes on again, just so I can reassess and make sure that I can deliver now to this larger group. So there are some changes coming in the network we just announced definitely human down has come over. I'm a longtime fan of everything. Definitely human producers, they have an amazing live play. If you're into a live place. I should look it up. It's I don't like horror. And I yell at them every time I see them. Because they made me fall in love with the show and listen to horror. It's called the infinite bad. And it's one it's just one of my favourite live plays. So and then there's some more that I can't announce yet that are we're still negotiating. Yeah, of course, of course, we're
Snyders Return:going into the definitely human bit. Would you mind expanding on that just a little bit. So those who have sort of piqued their interest? wouldn't mind sort of learning a little bit more about it from you?
Sean Howard:Sure. So definitely human brought over the show that's over in the network right now is called down. So I'll start there, and then I'll explain the infinite bad so down is one of the things I love about definitely human is the writing is stunning. And the production values are stunning. But there's a lot of shows I listened to that have stunning production values, but the writing Can you know, hit or miss never would definitely human and they have all of their stuff is it goes dark, but it's always got an edge of funny. So down is basically a 24 part. It's like a sci fi thriller, but gone wrong. Like it gets dark. But it's still funny. So that's, that's down you can find anywhere. And then the live play one of my favourite live plays in the world is the infinite bad from definitely human. It's like a post World War One classic right for strangers, you know, meeting in a, like an old castle or thing when it starts for a dinner and then something's wrong and it goes more wrong. And it involves teeth and it just too many teeth. But it's just brilliant. And it was their first attempt at a live play. And it's super fun. I highly recommend it.
Snyders Return:All right. Well, speaking of recommendations, and things like that, I haven't asked you where people can find you, the federal funding network and all the things that you you're associated with work, where can people if they are listening, go please go to the links in the description below. Find everything.
Sean Howard:So I'd say you can find everything at fable and folly.com. And again, if you're a creator out there or even starting check out the resources. We've got some great stuff that we've written that's there to help as far as me and our shows. Yeah, you'll We're all over the place. So you can go to the fable of it.com. We'll link to everything. It'll link to our shows on the homepage. And then you'll see all the other shows in the network.
Snyders Return:can people follow you guys on places like Twitter and Instagram, just in case? People want to use different platforms?
Sean Howard:Yeah, I wonder if we even have all that we do. So we Yeah, so we have a table and volley has a Twitter and Instagram. I think we're on Facebook, we don't update it much. Because, you know, Zuckerberg is evil. But what? Yeah, so I'm also all of our shows have their their social media accounts. So what I generally recommend is go to fable vida calm, find a show that catches your eye, all the shows on the network, have social accounts, on on pretty much everything. And then the creators, you'll also see are also attached often after on social
Snyders Return:as well. All right, well, I'll put as many links in the description below, primarily the fable and folly Network website, so people can sort chase that down. So by the sounds of it over the course of this conversation, all I'm understanding from you is that you're extremely busy. I will doing creation, editing work, sort of growing the network in one way or another. So what is it you do for downtime? How do you sort of how do you take a moment to switch off or, or sort of relax?
Sean Howard:I feel attacked here. And I do. I don't I don't, I don't switch off very well. That's the problem. I am a workaholic. The other night, I was feeling a little anxious and stressed. And so I went downstairs to read a book and I decided to work on a spreadsheet instead. It made me feel better. I can, I can work to the point of not feeling better, though, right? I can get managed just by by working too much. One of the hardest things for me was when we were starting this network, we came up with the idea of the network in I think February and I launched it in March. And we all know what happened during that time period. So I, I was in insane work mode on a new venture with a limited runway. And and the part that hurt me the most I realised now was we had stopped recording on our shows. And you know, IGN the end of time and other bothers, which is an interesting experiment in giving up control at the table. Right? So it's gone through a lot of evolution. But it was my first time doing apocalypse powered by the apocalypse. And it was my first time being in a table where everyone at the table plays into NPCs on the drop of a hat without talking. So it's been this amazing trust building exercise at a table. It's been super fun. But when that and then civilise where I comedy improv with a group, when those two shows stopped recording, it's a lot of work to prep and record. But I realised I lost something that was really important to me. I lost that, that fun, right? The laughter the and, and I had a game I was playing on the side, but then it stopped because I don't know. And, and so for me, it's, it's sort of awful. But performance is I think, where I really that idea of getting together with such focus and just having so much fun is is important to me as a creator. So, other than that, I have to force myself to take walks. So I try and take walks in nature now. During the day that's my, with the dogs. And, and then yeah, I I'm a workaholic, I'll admit it people have to like at people have to tell me okay Shawn, you need to step away and then I try and find some balance.
Snyders Return:Yeah, balance is important, but if it if it works for you, not to your detriment, then obviously you spoke there other times it has done. So, with all this work and the games and losing, is it fair to call it Liberty from losing the humour of the play and all the rest of it? You have a performance background, am I right in saying that?
Sean Howard:Yes. Yes and no. So I when I was younger, in high school, I was torn whether to go theatre and arts or computers. I chose computers. And I tend to as you can probably get from my workaholic thing, I tend to laser focus in on something and not let go to. So to the detriment of performing so there was a period in my before I turned to photography and film Where I couldn't go see a movie, I couldn't go see a play. Like I couldn't go see anything creative because it just hurt. I didn't know why. So in my mid to late 20s, early 30s, I really started to shift into photography, film, I sort of found this circuitous route back towards performance. And it's only been the last few years where I've really stepped back into improv, which is one of my favourite things, you know, comedy improv, and performing in front of people. So, so yes, no. And, and I guess it's just, yeah, for anyone out there who's feeling like, Oh, I didn't study or whatever. I didn't go school for it. You don't have to, you know, I really started turning back into performance, really, since high school with a dabbled in it. Very little in college. I was in my late 40s, early 50s. So
Snyders Return:yeah, everywhere. All right, well, so building on that slightly, say if someone else is, is inspired by one of the shows, or one of your shows, or just the the network and the sort of social media around that and thinks I could be a GM dm, MC, storyteller, game mother, depending on the system and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, or a podcast? or What advice would you would you give, and I realised they can be totally separate. But in our instance, they are almost the same.
Sean Howard:Yeah, we launched them to GM, because we basically want to create a show, which would help everyone start their game. Because, you know, I think there are, we're at a point now where tabletop RPG and role playing is now. It's, it's, it's out of the shadows, right? It's like, it's almost a mainstream thing. And yet, a lot of people are hesitant to start their own game, or to start jamming, or dming, or God, whatever you want to call it. And so we started that show, to basically just help give confidence people and answer their questions and basically say, Hey, get your game on, let's go. Try it, it's really not that bad. It's fun. And there's headaches and challenges. But so I think I have the same view of podcasting. The, the barrier to entry does go into podcasting is ridiculously low. The The challenge is maintaining it. So it's a lot of work, right? Anyone who has a show that keeps putting it out, it's it's, it's the beast, you have to keep nurturing and feeding and it's never not hungry, it's never done. So what I say is, start try it just like running a game, do a one shot. Same with a podcast, you have an idea, you want to do it, start it, try it record an episode. I remember the first podcast I ever recorded, we couldn't figure out how to get the USB mic, we were trying to use those in the old days, two USB mics on the same computer. And it was just things were exploding and, and, and it came out garbled. But we had so much fun. And we did it again. And we did it again. And and I think it's it's okay to experiment. It's okay to try it. You know, with a $50 or $20, or even a hammy down mic and see what it feels like and what you want to improve or change. Yeah, I think this idea of, of also, as a creator, we have to overcome this fear that we start more things and we finish. And I can rant on that forever, but it can be debilitating sometimes, right? The stories we tell ourselves that, you know, oh, I said I'm going to podcast and I bought the mic and it sat in a box for three years. And and I think as a creator trying to create anything that doesn't exist in the world, which is basically any act of creation. You have to allow for experimentation you have to allow for things not to work the way you expected or right away or this part of the journey.
Snyders Return:Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. And I I have been there with the the USB microphone, so I can I know what that's like. Yeah. So we you mentioned there about experimentation and things like that. And you've played power by the apocalypse for the end of time and other brothers you play with the de 20 systems for things like d&d. Is there a tabletop system out there? mechanical or thematic that you thought you know, when you eventually allow yourself time that you would like to try out?
Sean Howard:Yes, I have not played I haven't really played monster the week and I want to badly. We did an episode on it on DMT gn and we sort of like walk through how you'd set the game. But and I think I played in a one shot of it really quick. But I want to I would love to run that game system. I just think it's beautiful. The problem is there's so many systems I see that look so beautiful. That look neat. And my I'm, here's the weird thing I I'm of the I'm of the no rules side of the equation. So if you listen to dm to GM Ross is like, here's how the rules can work. And here's what to do if you don't know a rule. And I'm the like, forget the rules, just, you know, improv the table. So I think when it comes to things I want to try that I haven't. It's less about the system and more about I want to explore whether you could do a live play around the table with a format, but not necessarily be an RPG system. Right? So like, so like murder mystery, or game show? Or like things like that, like genre based formats? Could you do something fun around the table with that? And then what cobbled together system or existing system would then fit it is what I would do. And then I tried find that's how I ended up with dungeon world, which is the absolute worst first introduction to power by the apocalypse. Right? Like, it's a nightmare. It's 700 pages. It's,
Snyders Return:it's, it's great.
Sean Howard:I love it. But like power by the apocalypse is often like a 10 page thing. And you're up and running. Right? Like in So, but it came away because I found the thing we want to try. And then I was like, Look, it's DND powered by the apocalypse. So I ended up backing into the system
Snyders Return:almost reluctantly, by the sounds of it.
Unknown:Yes.
Snyders Return:So with that in mind, obviously, I wouldn't want to change a change or podcast or your or your game in that respect. But looking at across the systems available now be it different Power BI apocalypse or DND? Or is the one that going back to the start you would change dungeon world out for?
Sean Howard:Yeah. So I think anytime another bothers could have totally happened. Well, first of all, I could have done it in d&d. But I I really love the I love the action, first mechanism of power by the apocalypse. So just say what you're doing. And the mixed success, I think is a brilliant idea for storytelling. You get what you want. But I think when it so for me, I'm very intrigued by storytelling formats. But Dude, I need a system as as complicated as dungeon world. No, I think I could have used monster the week because I ended up creating my own playbooks. And one of the cool things about power by the apocalypse is it's really easy to create your own game system without even realising you're doing that. Like that's what's so cool about it. Whereas in d&d, and other systems, I love them. I find it takes a little more care to try and balance things right, when you're trying to create your own version of something. So I think I could have done monster the weak glitter hearts, I could have used glitter hearts would have been but I couldn't use any power by the apocalypse system, I think. And then just manipulated. But I didn't know any of those I was. So I was just like looking for things. And I looked at fake core. I remember just going through a list from our consultant, our gaming consultant, he has like 570, board games, and every RPGs isn't I mean, he just kept handing me books. And I think I was also a little scared. So I think being handed a book that was d&d that I've played off and on since I wasn't, you know, teen, and like I knew it, right. I knew the basic concepts. And it was all there just a little different. Well, very different. But that just I think was a safety net for me. So I chose it. I was like, oh, God but but power by the apocalypse. How come nobody's done this before. Now. Now I know why.
Snyders Return:So just in case anyone is confused by the term. briefly touch on what is power by the apocalypse, please,
Sean Howard:I'm a bad person asked because I avoid these systems. Just
Snyders Return:Yeah, nice and baseline.
Sean Howard:So powered by the apocalypse is a very simple system that you can leverage and put your own mechanisms and story and things on top of it. So the basic concepts of power by the apocalypse are things like you roll two, six sided dice to do just about everything, and a one to six and you have modifiers but one to six is a hard move, it's a bad fail something bad happens. A seven to nine is a mixed success or whatever variation you want to call it a bat. And that means the player you know, they try and do something, they get a seven and nine. It worked. But there's a cost and the cost can be steep. And then there's You know, outright success, you know, 10 or 10 or above. And so there's this basic, very simple mechanism. But then there's these very simple moves, everything's just a move. So instead of a big book with character traits, and all these things, you have the same seven to 14 or 15 moves for the whole table. And that's, you know, things like doing melee or, or fighting or avoiding a bad reading a bad situation, or whatever it is. Those are the classes standard moves. And so those, it becomes a very simple mechanism to say, Oh, this would be used for that standard move. And then you just roll the 286. And the move will tell you what variations of bad or good can happen in this situation using that move. And then on top of that, you have playbooks and playbooks are very simple. Like on a single page or two pages, you have all these options for your player to gain new moves, and they're just other moves. Right. So every time they go up a level, they can choose a new move. So and the nice thing about power by the apocalypse is it doesn't care that much. If you have hit points or life points or stress, or like the game system is very flexible to allow for you to have, you know, traits and things that work in space. weapons will often just have a tag. So instead of wearing T and D, you know, a sword, that's a sword that's like vorpal. And all this stuff will have all these attributes and write ups on it. You know, whereas in powered by the apocalypse, it'll just say messy. So in a from a storytelling point of view, it can be a lot, it can be freeing and fun. When a player goes, what does this do, and he swings it at something, and the tag is messy. You just can have fun with that. But it can also be you know, there's some safety that comes from a more robust system, right, where it explains what a vorpal sword will do.
Snyders Return:Now, that's one of the power by the apocalypse systems. I'd like to try and learn to play at some point is city of mist, sort of captures the imagination.
Unknown:I've heard great things.
Snyders Return:Yeah, I've, again, not to sound my trumpet, I managed to speak to a meet who wrote it, and created it. And James, in Chicago, that's written bits and pieces for as well. And the way they or means more more than James To be fair, but sort of spoke about it and described it, it just fires the imagination. It's like Netflix meets power by the apocalypse meets sort of modern fantasy noir with myths and lore and legends. And that's on a personal note, something that I would like to learn and play. If I can ever been to my group away from the the D 20. system of Dungeons and Dragons.
Sean Howard:Yeah. And the way to do it is to just do a one shot, I find a table, just do a one shot. And then and then you don't quite finish the one shot ever in the first session. So you go Okay, when we back Next, we'll finish this next week. And then we'll be back to our normal game. And then after you can be like, you know, after two sessions of something, you can really start to get some feedback from the table. Maybe they'll enjoy it. You might find they actually like oh, I sort of liked that. Maybe we could play that character. I liked that character, you know? Yeah. But yeah, I find doing a one shot is helpful. I had a table that was it's interesting anytime another bothers was very hesitant to leave d&d, even though two of the people hadn't even played d&d, there was this comfort from the idea of DND? Yeah, we just did some some one shots.
Snyders Return:You got up in the end?
Unknown:Yeah. I often do.
Snyders Return:Fair, fair, I'm not going to question that
Sean Howard:was my workaholic thing. I'm so bogus, I just don't give up. It's annoying.
Snyders Return:I can't comment as to whether it's annoying or not, I find it inspiring, your your ability, your drive, and your workaholic tendencies and commitment to your work so I can appreciate and respect all the challenges. I may not have the same tendencies in that respect as you but I can understand the the struggles and, and that sort of thing. So it's so great to speak to someone that is so impassioned, and empowered, such as yourself about podcasting, and tabletop role playing games and the community as well.
Sean Howard:Yeah. And that's something I miss a little on the tabletop side, because it I don't know it's interesting, like you You were you, you basically nailed it when you said Oh, trying to get my table away from t 20. There is a very strong sense of community around D and D and D 20. systems. That can be hard. If you're not doing one, right it can be a little harder to get you Your listenership or to grow your show. It can feel alienating because you don't get invited to all the cons and the trials of Wizards of the Coast because you know wizard the coast I don't think ever pays anyone anything but they gather all these people in a play something, right? You get to see it first or whatever. But if you're not in that, you can't you feel like you're not in the clubhouse right, if you're not playing a D 20. System sometimes. But there is a growing powerful community around power by the apocalypse. But I think in sheer numbers, like, you know, it's it's all D, it's the world is d 20. Right. And then there's the small little pockets of growing other systems, the satellite
Snyders Return:systems. Yeah. But we'll see. Few the future will tell. I think that, as you say, the safety net and the brand recognition around dungeons and dragons and things which border on that d 20. Sort of sphere. Yeah. tough nut to crack using as many metaphors and analogies as I can in one sentence there.
Sean Howard:No, it's true. And there's some amazing shows out there that have done such a good job, like we just brought on the crit show, which I think they were a bunch of d&d players, mostly, like back background, like all of us were, I think most of us who are older come from d&d. And they Yeah, they were experimenting with some new systems and super fun, like, but I think it's like, it's not just the dye change, it's moving your table from rule based hack and slash with roleplay. layered on top right, to a system. That's all roleplay story based. And there aren't a lot of mechanics. So I think that that can feel a little intimidating, or, you know, scary, or, you know, like there are there are people who don't feel comfortable doing a character voice, which is totally okay. You don't have to do a character voice to play and have fun with d&d or be a GM, or any of these systems. But you know what I mean, like, if you're a little hesitant around that,
Snyders Return:yeah, absolutely. It's all forms its own its own barrier. There's the free leagan, of freely publishing alien RPG. And I was reading through that, because that's yet another system I bought to try out at some point when I eventually have time players and many other things. And it states in the rules, the the game mother doesn't call for roles, the player declares their action, and then roles themselves to see if they succeed, keep that in a in a narrative way. So if they want to try and hack the computer, whatever they state that they roll, and if they then want to introduce a sort of stress mechanic, then, you know, it sort of builds the tension from there. And the game mother, as she, as they are called, just sets the scene and lets the game run through with the players doing their own directed roles. And I thought that was such a great way of doing it. But as you said, if someone doesn't feel comfortable creating their own narrative in in the framework given by the GM, the game kind of comes to a standstill.
Sean Howard:Yeah, and what's funny is I find it doesn't, but it's the fear, right? It's the discomfort. It's like, it's always like, it's like, you know, nothing is as bad as our brain works out to be right. Like it's except maybe the November election, but I'm moving on. But you know what I mean? Like, it's, it's, it's that first exposure. So that's why sometimes just doing saying, Hey, everyone, we need a break. And I always use the excuse. I'm not ready. I say, Hey, everyone, I can't run the campaign. I have to figure some stuff out. I'm not ready. And then everyone's like, Oh, we are but it's Sunday. And that's when you're like, but I have a one shot, we can run in you know, blah, blah, and you try it and they don't have a choice.
Snyders Return:Either play or they don't.
Sean Howard:Right. But I think it never goes as badly as you expect, right? There's always some fun to be had because you have a table that likes each other and likes getting together to play a game that takes the imagination. So there's, there's there's inherent you know, in jokes, there's inherent things that will still surface. Absolutely.
Snyders Return:And I now have to go away and concoct a plan to not be ready for the next game session so I can learn another game system and introduce that.
Sean Howard:Monster Hunter or what is it monster the
Snyders Return:weak monster of the week?
Sean Howard:Yeah. Tiny little book and walks through at the table. You set it up at the table. What the mystery is. It's brilliant.
Snyders Return:Yeah, it's definitely something I'll have to look at. And it's probably one
Sean Howard:of the ones I want to run so bad. So I highly recommend
Snyders Return:and see if I can find on Drive Thru, I imagine is on there. It's short. It's been an absolute pleasure. And I've learned a lot about you and the network and podcasting and introducing game systems. And this is sort of bordered on crossover dm to GM podcast hints and tips and everything. So I cannot Only sort of thank you from the bottom of my heart for taking the time to speaking with me today.
Sean Howard:Oh, well, that's very sweet. I really have enjoyed it. And I love what you're doing. It's amazing. It's just we need more voices.
Snyders Return:This is great for for more voices. I would love to have you back on the show. In the future, if you'd be willing. Yeah, that'd
Sean Howard:be awesome.
Snyders Return:I'm sure we can work together to sort that out and keeping contact from from here on out if, if we can absolutely yeah,
Sean Howard:I look forward to that. Thank you, Adam.
Snyders Return:Thank you for your time. Again, I will put links in the description below, please, please go to the federal funding network. Follow the shows that are on there some amazing content creators, including, of course, my guest, Sean Howard. So please check out those podcasts and creators. So thank you once again. Sure.
Unknown:Thank you.
Snyders Return:Thank you for listening. If you'd like to learn more about the show, then go to WWW dot Snyder's return.squarespace.com. Alternatively, you can find us over on Twitter. At Return Snyder, you have a link tree link in the description of this episode. And if you want to support us, come and join us over on Patreon. And we also have a Discord server. Please leave us a review because we'd love to learn how to improve the channel and provide better content out for for those who are listening until we until we speak again.
Unknown:Thank you