Hello and welcome to snows return a tabletop role playing podcast. My guest today takes an unseen route along misty dark streets to bring us a truly horrifying matrimony, of the mastery of the mythological with psychological twistings of opulent dwellings and domains of dread. Starting from the ground up she is including all those who wish to step into a new world that she is helping to grow and support. It is with great pleasure that I get to strike up a conversation with Strix Whitney, Beltran, welcome to the show.
Whitney Beltran:Thank you for having me, Adam. And I think that's the best intro I've ever gotten. So I'm gonna save that one for later. Thank you.
Snyders Return:Thank you very much. So less about me. I'm more about you being the creative talent here. Would you mind telling us are telling me how you got into tabletop role playing games to start with please? Yeah, I'd
Whitney Beltran:love to add them. So I actually started role playing first on the internet, play by post where literally, you just write a paragraph. And then someone else writes the next paragraph. And then you write the one after that. So really collaborative narrative focused storytelling. And I really loved that. And I flirt around with tabletop, you know, in middle and high school. But then I went right into LARPing. really seriously for a number of years, throughout University. And in that community, obviously, also, there are tabletop folks. And I played Dungeons and Dragons, religiously, in university as well. But it was it was the LARP that really captured my imagination, taught me how to, you know, do story breaking beats, and rhythm and narrative cadence and stakes. And I brought all that back to ttrpg,
Snyders Return:potentially, and quite an impact you've had on the tabletop role playing community, and business, should we say as a as a wider entity as it is? I'm intrigued though, that the LARPing What did it start out as? And where have you taken it? Since? Yeah, so
Whitney Beltran:I started out in a traditional LARP by a traditional publishing house called legends of the five rings, which I adored. Now, elvive art has some cultural issues. But when you're LARPing, it's just it's really fun to play. As you know, one of these clans with identities, you know, it's kind of like it's kind of like a Harry Potter house in a way where you've got this archetypal group identity and archetypal group identities are very attractive. So I stay in Scorpion, clan, Scorpion clan for life. That's, that's where I put all my points. And I actually ran a tri state LSI, of our LARPing organisation with active games in three or four cities for a number of years in university and just after post University, so it was really intensely involved in the scene, running things, running stories, making stories for hundreds of people, sometimes dynamically, sometimes at the same time. So I loved it, because it was really challenging.
Snyders Return:It sounds incredibly challenging. And then hats off to you that sounds both enthralling, and, and mind boggling at the same time, to try and organise and script and present to that many over such a wide area. So Wow, something else I've learned about you, which is just astounding. And you mentioned there moving into sort of the tabletop role playing games. How did you get from playing into co creating and publishing? Where was that? Yeah,
Whitney Beltran:that's a that's a really good question. And the answer comes down actually, to community. You know, back in the day, when Google Plus still existed, there was a there was a thriving tabletop RPG community. It was the tabletop RPG community, and players and artists and designers and marketers, and everybody else was there. And we were just constantly having conversations about about TTIP G's. And I went from talking about them as like a fan and a player to just talking with more designers more often. They're just part of the ecosystem. And we started talking about like, Well, how do these things work? And what's the narrative underpinnings and what is the structure and that is only one sneeze away from actual design. At the same time, I was attending graduate school for a Ph. D programme in mythology, I ended up stopping with a Master's because I didn't want to go through the rigmarole of a PhD process. I wanted to go and make things but I was really thinking about narrative structure and how things work and why they work and why mythology is so powerful. Well, you know, is it a narrative system and how that fits with, you know, the archetypal stories for telling in tabletop RPG is it all just kind of fit together for me and this really like complex web. And I was like, I can synthesise this, and I can actually make something out of it. So, you know, the first time I think I started making games, it's like out of a game jam that just folks put together. And I was like, Oh, this is really easy, and fun. And I can remember the first paycheck I got for writing for a tabletop game, this little light bulb went off in my head. I was literally in front of my computer holding the check, and I went, Oh,
Unknown:I hadn't considered this before.
Snyders Return:And here we are today, in a very, very different circumstances, very much leaps and bounds. From what I understand sort of checking out your website. What speaking of your website before I dive back into some of the points raised, where is it that people can find you? So social media and things like that?
Whitney Beltran:Yeah, so I live on Twitter. That's my domain. On Twitter. I'm the Strix the underscore str a x, and I have my own website with lots of different kinds of content on it, as you've seen, Adam, and that is Strix works, works with an E. So str XUERK s.com. And that's where you can like find news updates all of my articles, all of my peer reviewed articles, all of my videos on diversity and inclusion and a whole bunch of other stuff.
Snyders Return:Absolutely, I'll make sure that there are links to your Twitter and your website in the description below. Plus anything else you want to signpost as we go through the interview? So absolutely, please follow the links and support Strix doing what she does, because there's so much more to touch on. And dipping back into something you mentioned just just a moment ago, that complex web of mythologies. So you having looked into it a lot deeper than maybe others have, who's in the middle of that web for you? Who is in the middle of the web of complex mythologies. Yes. Who would? Who is the centre of your mythological preferences? Where do you lean if you were to look into a mythology? Or favourite? Who's your favourite mythological person and therefore you build your basis around?
Whitney Beltran:So I'm a pluralist, you know, I'm kind of like this spinosad and pantheist in real life, and but when I think about understanding mythology, you know, my education is built on the works of Carl you Who is the protege of Freud, who worked a lot with psychology and mythology, active imagination, you know, something that's very close to roleplay. And the works that built upon that, which was Joseph Campbell. Now, both of these guys are really important to me. And I just want to make it really clear, both of them are super flot. Carl use academic theories are useful, very useful and applied in certain ways, and not useful and sometimes dangerous, and deleterious, if applied in other ways. And the same thing goes for Campbell. A lot of folks in my industry like to lean on this formula of the hero's journey, which Campbell proposed for sort of this universal midcycle called the monomyth. And I absolutely hate it. And I think it's wrong, and it hurts storytelling. And we need to move beyond Campbell's simply because that's what happens in academics at the very least is you make something and then people come after you are critical of it and grow it in a way that's useful and keeps things moving. For whatever reason, we've kind of arrested ourselves on this Kim bellion ideal and it is actually really past time for us to to grow forward. What are ideas of myth cycles look like in western storytelling, we have to tell other kinds of stories. We have to tell community based stories we have to tell women stories we have to tell every kind there is and the hero's journey really curtails the possibility of that because it's very structured. So I'm very anti, but in a way that is not like I hate Campbell. I love Campbell Campbell's half the reason why I'm here but in that, like we can do better and take his work forward in intelligent ways.
Snyders Return:Yeah, absolutely. So looking to move that forward and and take on that narrative side to things away from that hero's journey that you've mentioned, and thankfully explained, because I was a bit bit lost there for a moment. My understanding is is baseline I can identify some some figures in mythology and some tie some stories together. But I think I would fall prone to that. Campbell sort of storytelling, without education from people such as yourself. So where does game design both for tabletops and computer games? Where does it go next? How does it evolve from from this almost stalemate that we ourselves have created?
Whitney Beltran:So I think there there is potential for explosive growth actually, really at any time and I think we are actually seeing it from mostly diverse indeed. Readers at this point, which means it will, it will work its way into the big name products over time. But you know, in terms of video games, which I will speak on specifically for a moment, because that is my full time day job is, is working on triple A video games, video games are actually a nascent art form, like it is taken cinema 100 years at least, to settle into some recognisable, like patterns of you know, efficacy in terms of storytelling paradigms of thought, and it's still is growing and continues to grow video games at least narratively speaking, we got a long way to go. Like even 510 years ago, there worked narrative directors on games, because it was not perceived as a need. And as we know, that's, that's flipped quite hard recently in that like, video games figured out that good story sells more titles, right? We make more money when we tell good coherent stories in our medium. And now we have to figure out how that works with player agency and moment to moment gameplay, and, you know, technical constraints and budget and all kinds of stuff. So we are really we're at the frontier. This is where frontiers people, and we're exploring in in directions that could could wildly evolve in many different ways. So I'm actually really excited by that. I think video games are not stale at all. We just, we don't know what we don't know. And we're starting to figure out like, how can for it for tabletop? RPGs. You know, it's an interesting conundrum. Because most tabletop RPGs are pretty heavily reliant on archetypal thinking meaning like, even if we're thinking about Dungeons and Dragons, when we think about the classes, the classes are really archetypes, right, we have the old wise Druid, we have the sneaky rogue, like just the fact that I can say those things in you what I mean, it's very archetypal. Now our table storytelling is my bread and butter, right? That's what I'm educated on. That's what I want awards for. It's great. But the track is like not pushing on them, not poking them, not trying to move them here or there. But becoming really settled on the things that we already know. And archetypes change over time, culture changes over time. There are types that are popular because they align with, you know, I'll just say like the white supremacy of the West. And there are archetypes that are ignored, because they're not part of that thought process. And so there's a lot already around, we just have to start to be more aware of incorporating it. And there's still plenty to play with. Like I don't think we're out of ideas by any means. But I think we are really used to one mode of storytelling in tabletop RPGs. For the most part, indies are a little bit better about this, but like, I'm going to battle something and kill it and get points and take it stuff it right that's like, that's the whole deal. But that is one, one paradigm out of many possible viable, fun, money making paradigms. And I want to, I want us to do the other stuff. And so we have a whole buffet of different kinds of tasty things to consume, rather than like the same sandwich
Snyders Return:over and over again. You don't I mean, absolutely. And you yourself have helped what co create one of these other avenues of gameplay with bluebeards bride with magpie games and I was having a look at that not long before this interview to sort of refresh my memory on it. And the mechanics in there are so different from the sword and board stuff. The the ace, you know, role to be an AC kind of Dungeons and Dragons set up unlike yourself, I really enjoyed Dungeons and Dragons book games, like the one I've just mentioned that you co created and things like power by the apocalypse games on cortex that have a more narrative based. So city mystery is one that I've started to really enjoy because it uses a more narrative structure unless combative A to B thing. So what was it like bringing the fairy tale of Bluebeard's bride into a sort of game and and the mechanics behind that? Yeah,
Whitney Beltran:so first of all, is very energising because this particular fairy tale blue beard is a very charged fairy tale, meaning people always have strong reactions to it. It's very memorable. It has stuck around in our unconscious minds. It's a it's a sticky fairy tale. And it's sticky because it is scary, because it tells us truths that we don't like or choose that are unjust and unfair. And it is sensual and dark and forbidden. And those are all things that make me very excited, at the very least. And so when we are looking at you know, the the actual game structure of blue beard sprite, it was always how do we serve those feelings? How do we evoke those feelings? How do we make this experiential thing that's happening? as cool lose to the experience of Bluebeard that we want you to feel. So I like crunchy games riffs is one of my old favourites, even though it has impossible rule schemes. But Bluebeard scribe is not crunchy. Because we knew we wanted as designers, and it was to deliver you this experience of terror. It wasn't about optimising. It wasn't about min maxing, it wasn't about trying to survive. It's not a survival horror game. It is, the horror is in front of you, and you cannot escape. What What do you do with that? Right? What do you do in the face of that, and that is what that game explores what pulls apart and makes room for
Snyders Return:some of the mechanics involved like the wedding ring, and the use of a simple dice mechanic to to keep things moving. And yet so engaging. And as you say, sort of to say trapped within it sounds wrong, but get so right, the way the game feels, even through just reading the descriptions through the book itself. So tip one's hat to you on the fantastic. And so that's that's where we'd like to see more. Spencer Stark has made policies missing, again, as a totally different take on a tabletop role playing game that's, that's covering a lot of steam. And is that more the sort of game that you want to see not specifically that one style, but that opening out of uses of different technology, different storytelling methods, and sort of narrative threads being pulled more from the players and less from the source book?
Whitney Beltran:Yeah, I mean, so I have a personal bias in like the type of games that I like to play. But that doesn't mean that I think that's the only type of game that there should be in the market, I think there, there should actually be just a high high variety of the different kinds of experiences you can have. So whether it's OSR, or you know, whether it's freeform game, which is just totally about the experience, or whether it's like a Jeep form game, right, or traditional tabletop, what I am interested in is, what if we borrow from like Japanese act structures, right, which is like a four or 5x system instead of our 3x system and operates very differently. Like, what if we use like real matches as a gameplay mechanic, which is actually something that exists in a game that I have played, and I thought was really neat. Like, what if walking around in the woods is a gameplay mechanic, there's also a mechanic I've experienced in in a game like, I think we should be experimenting and trying things out and, and seeing, you know, what works for us. And also, like, you know, a heroic journey is definitely one kind of journey that everyone can relate to. It's not the journey of all journeys, they're their journeys of powerlessness, there's journeys of community, there's journeys of returning, or reforming, or dissolving, right? Like, what I want to see represented is like all the states of us, right, all the states of humanity that we can explore and engage with and make our own lives
Snyders Return:richer. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm sure there are indie game designers and maybe even some more larger publishers that are working maybe behind the scenes to sort of either bring that into their existing properties or, or bringing something new and unexpected for us. So we can only hope that that the industry continues to change and listen to the communities of people such as yourself, one voice may not seem enough, but one voice leads to many voices, which can lead to change, as we've seen on a variety of topics recently, speaking of one of the biggest, if not the biggest tabletop company, intellectual property system. You've recently worked on the new book with wizards the coast for Dungeons and Dragons, would you mind sort of telling us a little bit about your, your journey into ravenloft?
Whitney Beltran:Yeah, so I can't say a whole lot right now because of the state of the NDA. But yes, I have written for Dungeons and Dragons, new source book, The ravenloft book, and I have written the setting value chain, which is maybe a word some people have heard before, unfortunately, can't go into details with what's going on with Val Chan right now. But I'm really excited about this book, because I don't know if you've seen the author list, Adam, but like, this is an all star crew, like I am I'm really good writers for this book. I'm impressed. And I think it is going to be really fun to explore all all of the domains of dread that have been included.
Snyders Return:Yeah, absolutely. Not sort of pushing down that avenue. Is there anything on the computer game side that you're working on that you're able to let us know? Because you're working in two or three different mediums plus communities? So we've spoken there about the latest sort of tabletop side of things, is there anything sort of computer based But you can tell us about
Whitney Beltran:Yes, actually. So this is really big news. I don't know when you folks are listening to this, but this actually just broke today in the Strix world. In that, you know, I am the narrative director at hidden path entertainment. And we make triple A video games, which means very large, very expensive video games. And we have just made public that the game we are making right now is actually a Dungeons and Dragons game in partnership with Wizards of the Coast. And Hasbro, which is, I don't know, for me like a super big deal. This is this is a lot of, you know, chickens coming home to roost after years and years of work in the industry, and working on all different kinds of titles and all different kinds of genres. You know, from horror, to fantasy, to surrealism. And we know working in mobile games, working in VR games, working in tabletop games, to do a triple A open world title is like, that's the biggest piece of the cake. I'm super excited, I'm super excited, we finally get to acknowledge that that's what we're we obviously we've known for a while or what we're making, but publicly, we have not been able to say anything. So
Snyders Return:imagine that excitement has been bubbling for a while. So that's that's what's coming in the future, something really exciting for us all to look out for and, and sort of keep track on on the various social platforms as things are released. But up until today's news where you could tell everybody what's been your favourite project to work on so far with hidden path or or in the tabletop side of life? Yeah,
Whitney Beltran:I mean, there's a lot for me to talk about. So I shipped a raccoon Lagoon, I think last year or a year before, it's it's pandemic times. So I'm trying to work out, you know, and it was a VR game called rakuen Lagoon. And it's it's a very pleasant, charming sort of Stardew Valley esque VR game where you are on an island tending a bunch of very cute animals. So it was my first VR title. And actually, I get really VR sick. So I had to take the headset and mount it on a dummy behind my desk. could wear the headset while I worked on on the engine in 2d on my computer screen. So it was pretty funny, but we made it work. also recently, you know, I released in partnership with my team, aconite, apple, mobile game, hollow Vista, and hollow VISTA has already won and been nominated for a number of awards that only came out in September it is it is actually kind of like my own response to bluebeards bribe, like it's in conversation with Bluebeard's bride in probably ways you would not expect and I won't spoil any of it. But it is kind of fantasy near future kind of oriented around social media and identity and who you are when you're alone versus when you're talking to other people. And it's a very surreal kind of journey, again, through a house maybe some themes here, where the main character is really facing herself really, really wonderful, hard things happen. You know, people tell me they cry when they play this game, which is good, because they also told me they cried when they if they believed Bluebeard's bribe so I've got a theme here, I'm the game designer the next crack
Snyders Return:i have to say i watch the trade on the website on iPhones website, and it visually it is stunning. And just from the trailer, I was like, Where's Where's my phone? It looks incredible. The sense even from that short trailer, and the way it sort of cuts between the aforementioned house and the sort of social media side of things just just briefly, and it's an I can't spoil anything. It's a traitor is there for everybody to see, but it's so visually engaging. It's, again, a wonderful job. I'll give you compliments. I've never programmed a game in my life. But the visuals
Whitney Beltran:were not my domain Blake Katherine and a couple of other artists really made that work but it Yes, I agree is super gorgeous. And I'm so proud how pretty that game is.
Snyders Return:So you know, we've we've mentioned your tabletop game work both before and now moving into the future. We've mentioned your computer game stuff, both before and now moving into the future. So what is it you do? How do you put lakhs? What do you do for downtime? What is what is? What is you your time? What does that look like?
Whitney Beltran:What is relax? I have heard this word before. I'm really busy. And I am that way on purpose. You know, aside from the actual creative work, I'm really involved in the tabletop community. I really believe in storytelling and what it can do for us. And what that also means is I think more people should be given the chance to storytelling. So I work a lot on diversity and inclusion in the community. I'm an advocate, but I'm also a consultant. So I work with mostly video game companies on figuring out like how to hire people that are and how to keep them better and how to recognise and support and nurture diverse voices and Then myself and my husband audit George, who also worked on the ravenloft book together we run a private hi intervention mentoring programme for games professionals, marginalised game professionals looking for their first job in games. And we have like a whole team that we work with to help folks really land that that job so I'm always involved in something. But in terms of like real downtime Adam, what do I do I play ukulele. Oh, wow. And I'm into synthesisers and make sense music, particularly through music. I have a SoundCloud watch.
Snyders Return:That's that's what gonna find that link image guy in the podcast description.
Whitney Beltran:I will say I'm just beginning my synth journey. I know nothing about music. I was never trained, even like second grade. Like, I don't know my job, right? Nice. But I find synth music to be really really expressive. And I really am into drones. So I'm experimenting with what drone sounds like. It's I'm sure it's very arch brute. uncultured debris, raggedy, but I really enjoy putting it together. Absolutely. Yeah.
Snyders Return:If you don't enjoy it, you wouldn't continue to do it and and as an escape from other other endeavours should we say then, again, more to you for learning a new skill and continuing to learn new things. And on the you mentioned that you have sort of worked with the diversity and inclusion side of stuff. Is there any links you want? You want to shout out or any particular website or organisation you want me to dissolve? link to really help get the word out?
Whitney Beltran:Yeah, so one of my favourite organisations is actually pixels, like pixels, but with a couple L's in it. They're Canadian based nonprofit, and they do amazing, real heavy lifting work to make at least video games more diverse, and I love them. So we'll take a look at pixels, figure out how you can support them.
Snyders Return:Yeah, definitely. I'll put that link in the description below. So between ukulele synth music, computer games, tabletop role playing games, just a life as everybody exists, sort of finding time to eat and things like that. Is there any tabletop? or computer games, you will stick with tabletop? Because that's the sort of the more dominant theme of this interview at least. Are there any games you look at? And you think, when I get time? If Look, look at the watch, and depends on what programme and project you're on next? Is there any game you think I want to give that a try, or you look at a game mechanic and you think I'd like to, I'd like to take that and bring that into a game that I would like to put out for somebody?
Whitney Beltran:Yeah, so I have recently discovered a tabletop RPG based on the labyrinth, the movie, it's not new, but it's new to me, and I love the labyrinth. So I have it on order, it's taking a really long time to ship that is the the next tabletop game that I will be looking at as the labyrinth tabletop RPG, which it looks really cool. It comes in a red book, it has like a secret compartment for dice like, and other people have spoken all of it that I trusted. So that is what I am super looking forward to. In terms of mechanics, you know, for a long time now, I've been really interested in GM less dynamics, meaning stories where there's not a GM, where it's totally community storytelling. And there are a lot of chainless games, it's not a new thing. And a lot of them are very beautiful and worked very well. And I'm interested in in that space in regards to like, kind of like the sociological aspect of like, what makes gym less work, what makes it works better, what makes it work worse, what complexities can we build into gym lists? What are issues that we can smooth out? Like if there's a bad actor, you know, in the mix, like do the rules prevent them from ruining things? All kinds of stuff. I also like GM list simply because it dissolves hierarchy. And you know, often gmms get a bad rap for being controlling. But sometimes they really are. And I think people deserve to try out having more creative and expressive freedom when their players instead of having to be the GM to do that.
Snyders Return:That's fair enough. So you mentioned that as a system and a mechanic, would you give some examples in case someone's gone? I've never heard of any GM less games. Have you got any examples off the cuff that that you'd be happy to sort of put across?
Whitney Beltran:Yeah, so I think a really good example is for the Queen by Alex Roberts. Have you heard of for the Queen Adam,
Snyders Return:only very recently, very recently, for the
Whitney Beltran:queen is actually a card based RPG. It's a deck and there's no GM involved. It's really rich and evocative, and it's also really accessible and easy to play. You don't need to know a lick about tabletop RPGs to pick it up and have a good time. And you can also play in one city for two hours or for four hours. So it's really great for conventions or like travelling, meeting up with new people at say, like, games meetup. I really like touting it as an example of really fun GM lists.
Snyders Return:Yeah, that's it's something I'm definitely, as I said, I've only heard of it recently. It's something I'm going to have to look into look into more, I found, and I don't know how you found with, do you have your own gaming group away from work away from programming away from all the other projects? You do? Do you run games regularly? I say run. If it's gmls, then you don't technically one. But
Whitney Beltran:yeah, I mean, before COVID I was pretty active in the convention scene. So conventions like big bad con, or intercon, or ducks con, or sand con, you know, I'd hit up to three to seven year. And that's where I would see all the other designers and we talk about what we're working on and the new stuff and experiment with things. And, you know, I was pretty up to date on like, what was going on. And that is where I mostly got my my games experiences from for the most part. I am, of course, running a Dungeons and Dragons game at work, you know, we're making Dungeons and Dragons. And I'm the narrative person, like, there's just going to happen, but I honestly I really don't have time for like a weekly, long campaign style session with friends. I stopped I can pick up an experiment with and learn from
Snyders Return:my ask about your work based dungeons dragons game? Yeah, I could see if I could answer. Well, let's let's see what we got. Is it homebrew? Are you running an official setting? Or published? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. How many plays of interest we have for players? nice sized group, then? And are they sticking to the archetypes? Or have you opened them out to the newer options available through books like, say Tasha is and other maybe independent sources.
Whitney Beltran:So we're playing fivey. And there's definitely a you know, there's a changeling in there, there, there's a really unique stuff going on. And you know, players are experimenting with playing towards type meaning like an archetype they identify with, and against type meaning, trying to embody a character that's very different from them as sort of like a challenge. So yeah, we have our own thing going on, man. Sounds good.
Snyders Return:Are you taking notes behind the screen about putting that into the game? This is how they play all the time to the narrative?
Whitney Beltran:Probably not. And that's actually why I did the homebrew is because it's so different that like, I'm able to keep those domains separate. Because if things get bleedy, they can get a little complicated, which is fair,
Snyders Return:you're still a professional at the end of the day, I wouldn't want to Yes, very professional, and muddy the waters in that respect. It's been really great to go over so many of these topics. Is there anything that we haven't touched on that you would like to bring to the fore, maybe a topic near and dear to your heart that I've not brought up yet in the conversation or anything that's coming up for you, professionally or personally that you would like to highlight? I think it's probably safe to say this now. Maybe. So I recently acquired a literary agent for books, because we are looking at me writing a nonfiction book about tabletop RPG design. You were the first person I'm telling that to publicly. There's not a whole lot I can say about it right now. But it is an exciting new adventure. I've published at least chapters in books before on tabletop RPGs. I actually was a co writer for the first ever university level RPG textbook through Rutledge plus, but I yeah, I'm, I'm looking at writing a book on RPG design, so we'll see how that turns out. So your next adventure is about adventures, as always. But no, that's not to me, thank you for sharing, sharing that, obviously, we'll look out for that in the future as things start to fall into place. And if you want some more support for it, please let me know when I can retweet or shout out or use social media to support what you do because it's it's fantastic. Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate that. It's a pleasure and going on to what you do or circling back, shall we say to what you do with it, remind everybody where they can find you? And your content, please? Absolutely. So again, thanks for listening, folks. My
Whitney Beltran:name is Strix. I'm a narrative director on video games award winning narrative designer for tabletop RPGs. And I love talking about this Lying publicly on Twitter, I will give you all my secrets. They are not hidden. So follow me on twitter at the Strix the underscore str i x, and I do have a website with lots of resources at Strix works, works with an e.com
Snyders Return:Thank you Strix, it has been an absolute pleasure, I'd love to get you back on the show later in the year, depending on when you're listening to this in the future anyway, back on the show in the future, if you'd be willing.
Whitney Beltran:Yeah, that'd be wonderful. I feel like you know, every six months, there's probably going to be something new to talk about for a while.
Snyders Return:So, put a six month mark is somewhere in my diary. But no, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on.
Whitney Beltran:Thank you, Adam, and have a wonderful day and you to folks who are listening. I hope I hope your day goes. Well.
Snyders Return:Thank you. Thank you for listening. If you'd like to learn more about the show, then go to WWW dot Snyder's return.squarespace.com. Alternatively, you can find us over on Twitter. At Return Snyder, you have a link tree link in the description of this episode. And if you want to support us, come and join us over on Patreon. And we also have a Discord server. Please leave us a review because we'd love to learn how to improve the channel and provide better content out for for those who are listening until we until we speak again. Thank you