Hello, and welcome to snows return a tabletop role playing podcast. My guest today has taken place from the mythic north to the edges of space, and to the dark and mysterious forests of divakar. making games that are out of this league and laying the groundwork to construct adventures for many years to come. Is my fantastic guest. Mateus Yongsan hockey.
Mattias Johnsson Haake:Hi, Adam, you actually make me blush. Thank you for a very nice intro. And thank you for having me.
Snyders Return:No, it's an absolute pleasure. And it was great to hear from yourself and freely publishing with the opportunity to speak to yourself. Your name, and this is something we'll get into is across many of the properties of freely publishing have really been put out and Well, before we get to that, how, how did you get into not only free league and but but tabletop role playing games to start with?
Mattias Johnsson Haake:Well, I'm, I'm born early 70s. So I have my my adolescent years during the golden age of, at least in Sweden, the golden age of the previous golden age of tabletop role playing games, where we had several Swedish brands, brands that were really strong. And even though I was mostly a board gamer Back then, I have always loved games, I always you know, toyed with, with the making simpler board games and such, since very young age. But role playing games was was something I wasn't introduced to until I think I was probably already 17 years old. And it was a lucky, lucky, it was a fluke. We we needed a new bass player for our heavy metal band. And in came Andreas marklund still a very good friend of mine and one of the guys who might started yam ring and my previous little role playing games company with in came he smelled the nerd in me, I guess. So. It took quite a while before he dared approach any of the other hard rockers or heavy metal dudes, but but he picked up on the scent of nerdiness in me and and i think i started with talisman, the board game. He just wanted to feel my pulse. And I was I mean I was Yeah, it wasn't a hard sell. I was smitten immediately. And not long thereafter, we started playing some pen and paper or playing games as well. The Swedish, big brand at the time was the rocker oak demo winner, which spells something like the dragons and demons. And yeah, from there on out. We I played during all of my, you know, the college years and the university years. And I don't know if you really get into role playing games, I think you never stop being a fan of the genre.
Snyders Return:Yeah, definitely. So that's your sort of introduction. And I have to say dragons and demons given that the translation that sounds an epic game and stepping through the your, shall we say educational development. We label it like that. Going through your educational development and as you go and continuing to play. Where did that path lead? And how did that lead on to to joining the fantastic company you're with now?
Mattias Johnsson Haake:Oh, of course education wise when it comes to to gaming. We soon branched out and I during the 90s we as everyone else played a lot of storyteller games and we always played a lot of Warhammer and the small geka and and coloca foo and actually quite a lot of Dungeons and Dragons as well in various iterations. So I think I got a taste of a large part of the, of the smorgasbord, as we say here in Sweden, when it comes to tabletop role playing games. I think that the main reason actually why we, me and seven of my friends decided that we would try. I mean, on a hobby basis, this is right at the turn of the millennium, me and some friends decided that we were going to make a role playing game. We were going to make a new edition of a classical Swedish role playing game called mutant on mutant. Yeah, it sounds familiar, right. So what we do, and the reason why we did this was mostly to keep in touch, because we were closing in on 30 years old, we had moved apart, some, some of us weren't even in Sweden anymore. So we wanted a reason to, to stay together. And we wanted a reason to do that. While continuing to, because this circle of friends was kind of a role playing, group of, of friends. So and it also turned out somehow that we had most of the, if not competencies than the interests that were needed to make this happen. So we have three guys who love to write and did so a lot, just not role playing games. At the time, we had two guys that were already done quite talented artists. We had two guys who were interested in and had started to, you know, run run the business side of things, or at least they were, they were eager to learn to run the little company as a business. The only thing we lacked was the layout, graphical design department. But luckily, we've we had the friend of a friend who we invited, and we started off with the company then called jam rhenium, the iron ring. And in this group was mapping Guinea. Martin has is the lead artist for a symbol room and Coriolis and alien, and yeah, most most of our other games. So I think he is we known each other for going on 35 years or something like that. Another of the friends in uranium was Mateus, Lilia, who is now also with us. He is my, my dear friend and companion when it comes to, especially symbolism. But he's also working on on Coriolis, and he is he actually designed the first iteration of Coriolis. That was produced by also john ring and and how it came to be that we merged with with free league because that's, that's that's a whole other chapter. But let's start. Let's make it short. And because I have talked about this in other podcasts, if people are really, really interested, I think they can find the information somewhere. The guys that founded free league or freely GM, they actually started out as freelancers for us at at a young renea. So when we were young and close chop, then free league took over some of our brands and kept started to build their company. So when we a couple of us started up again, they had moved on a bit further than we ever had before, for instance, by translate lating or their games into English. So and immediately when we started up again, we also started talking to Tomas and Niels and Costa and Chris them about actually, you know, joining forces someday. And the idea I think at the time was that we will do it pretty soon. The reason why it took until mid 2018 Until we started working together as the big free league that we have today, it's mainly because we were so busy that we didn't have time to, to arrange everything that needs to be done for the merger before them.
Snyders Return:And once that has come together that the team that you are and the properties that you brought with you and revived and and are lovingly enjoyed by countless, I don't know, everybody that plays them countless, because they are countless are brilliant, quite simply. And you've mentioned a good couple of properties there. And so would you mind taking us into one of them? Which, and I know it's wrong to have favourites. But you did a lot of you did the construction and the layout for some barn. But is that your favourite inverted commas? product that you have produced? Or? Which of the games really sort of fires your imagination the most that you guys put out?
Mattias Johnsson Haake:Yeah, I think I must be the that boring just to say that? Yeah, you're totally correct. And assuming that it is, it is simple. And that is closest to my heart both both creatively and in, you know, in when it comes to sentiments, because that's the game. When when we had had this hobby or creating games in the first part of or I mean, the first decade of this century, we we actually did we did the previous iteration of the mutant licence, again called mutant heirs of doom, that free league later took under their wings and turned into a mutant year zero. And I truly loved that game so much, but it was symbolism that, really, because when we made mute, and we didn't know actually what we were doing, we were learning as we went along with symbolism, it feels like it, we were at a point in time where we actually knew what we were doing. And today, I can honestly say that I'm super proud of where the game has come. And we are far from done. I can tell you that. But But I mean, the cool thing about being in a Creative Collective, such as free league is that the if I, one day, feel a little bit sick of symbolism for one reason or another, there are so many other fantastically cool games, and which is maybe most important to me so many fantastically cool settings, to, to delve into and to help contribute to in as an editor or as a proofreader only or, or just spitballing ideas or we are such a small and tight group that it is rare that we release anything that not everyone has been in touch with, in one way or another. And and, you know, one of the most fantastic thing is that we do have that kind of cool combination of similarities and dissimilarities within this group that makes the creative process really rewarding. And I also believe it impacts the products in a very positive way. So yeah, I have a very cool day job nowadays.
Snyders Return:I can't argue with that statement. It's so and you mentioned that that a lot of people work on these properties but let's let's focus down on on one of the reasons that I'm so glad you agreed to speak to me and that is symbolism and if someone is unfamiliar, would you mind giving a sort of a an overview of the game itself, basic mechanics and and the world that that you have crafted so beautifully?
Mattias Johnsson Haake:Oh, thanks. Where to start where to start? I usually start with with a quote from a very early quote from a German reviewer who said that this game is is like Princess Mononoke meets Game of Thrones, and I find that quote Very, I mean, hopefully, the game is more than that. But it pinpoints a couple of very central aspects of the game. Are you familiar with Princess Mononoke? Yep.
Snyders Return:I love that film.
Mattias Johnsson Haake:I often asked that question, which is, I never asked people do you know of Game of Thrones? So, but it actually one time it has happened that the person I asked didn't know what it was. So anyway, we can assume that a lot of the people listening to this know what both Princess Mononoke and Game of Thrones is, and symbolism lends elements from both of these, or at least can be compared to both of these in some senses. It is Game of Thrones in the sense that it's a little bit it should appeal to a little bit more mature audience may be done your typical heroic black and white fantasy game as as this it's a more nuanced setting where sure there is good than there is evil in the setting, but what you as a player character, regard as good or bad, it's more a question or is totally a question of your perspective, rather than on some natural law or some such. So So in that sense, I think it's fair to say that it's it's a bit like Game of Thrones syndrome is Princess Mononoke, in the sense that the central theme of the setting and indeed of the game as a whole is, is the conflict or the the meeting between civilization and nature and the idea of what would happen if nature actually had the capacity to react to civilizations will to cultivate them, and you know, force its order upon the wilds, and, and in Simba room, just like in Milan okiya, things can get really out of hand and nature can become very, very rough, wrathful and vindictive, even. So, the game is set. With this theme in mind, civilization versus nature, the setting is quiet, limited. When it comes to the geographical scope. It is basically that the core of the setting is one kingdom that borders vast and very, very dark and very dangerous forest called dabholkar. And while the humans of this civilization called Umbria Kingdom in some senses represent the civilization aspect of the theme, you have the elves of the forest, the elves of the iron pact, which claim who claim that they are acting on on ancient treaty between humans and elves, and a treaty called the iron pact. And according to this this pact, the humans have vowed not to tread too deeply into the forest. And they have also granted elves the right to actually use force and violence against those who humans that transgress So, the problem is that this forest is brimming with not only natural resources, it is also filled with ancient ruins from a once mighty Empire called symbolism. And the humans of Umbria have a really tough time keeping out of the woods, and has a tendency to scoff at the elves when they claim that you know, the evil Lord and the darkness of ancient symbolism will awaken if you if you rummage around in these ruins. Anyway, so that that's one of the central conflicts and, and one of the things that I've heard a lot of players in game masters, you know, comment on after playing symbolism for the first time is that the elves have symbolism are not your familiar fantasy, fantasy elves. Rather, you would maybe describe them as having the role that the orc would have in the more traditional fantasy game. And that's, that's, I mean as the default enemy or the default antagonist At any rate, and that's not a thing that you know, we sat down and thought about What what? How can we tweak the elf archetype to make it cooler? It's an effect rather of this central conflict that we have designed the whole setting around. That made the, the elves appear as these guardians are wardens of the forest. And the same is true for a lot of other classic gear, you know, fantasy archetypes, not only when it comes to origins or fantasy races as you would have it, but also other concepts that are from like magic and syndromes. It's quite different from in your traditional heroic fantasy role playing game, because in symbolism, every time you force your will upon nature, nature will strike back. And in the form of, of something that in the game world is called corruption. So if you simply put if you do too much magic, you will feel the wrath of the of creation and basically be turned into an abomination eventually, if you aren't careful, and some people aren't careful, you have the Sorcerer's, that are actually tapping into the power of corruption, in order to gain gain more power, leading to the to them being you know, becoming well, leading to them losing themselves before time, if you will, they become monsters more or less many of them. Mechanically, I am not the right person to talk about the mechanics, but I can say a few things just so you get the basic understanding. It is it is a very fast paced, and deadly and gritty system that at least most players basically describe as rules light, it is a it is a system where you it's a deep point to roll under system that is completely player facing in the sense that the players handles all dice rolls, whether they are attacking, they roll the dice to hit, or they are defending they roll dice to evade or block. And this is done thanks to modifications of the of the non player characters that have static values. So it's also a question of dealing damage, the player rolls and they hit if they are hit, they roll for their armour against the static value. Other than that, you have the D 24. The success tests and then you have effect dice which range the standard range from D four to D 12. Depending on how powerful you are or what kind of weapon you have. Or how how mighty your healing powers are someone?
Snyders Return:Yeah. Well, thank you for did a fairly good job that that or Did I miss anything crucial? I wouldn't say you missed anything crucial. You certainly introduced some touched on some of the very important law that I really love the the sort of the plays, rolling in that respect, reminds me of a few other game systems that I enjoy. And so we touched on the law and a bit the mechanics. And what about since I have the starter so I was lucky enough to get a copy of the starter set. And the artwork you mentioned back at the beginning of the interview, sort of looking through this is phenomenal. And I'm just looking at some a few of the player character options from that. So the page next to me is on the rogue if please go and buy a copy of the game mainly but if you pick up the starter set, the artwork that carries through is is a phenomenal and so the system has a role yet but it's also got different choices for players to choose. It's it's not just your sort of stereotypical Heroes is it
Mattias Johnsson Haake:now first and foremost, and this is I'm very glad you brought it up because one of my favourite aspects of the of the mechanics is character creation and in symbolism it is for good and bad. And we can sort that out in a little while but for good and bad, it is totally open. So you have You have a set of eight basic abilities that you can range between five and 15. And you do that any way you like. Then you have abilities, which are like skills, that actually changes the way that you use your basic abilities. And they can unlock certain types of actions and also lead to you, you know, dealing more damage or, or being more agile or whatever, you have the mystical powers. And what is, which is very important in symbolism is the ritual magic, which is very powerful problem solving tool, you have rituals, like the tale of ashes, where were you, during an hour can meditate over a fire that has gone out, and here and Sam's what has happened around it as it burned, for instance, then you have something introduced in the advanced players guide called boons and burdens, and, and you have equipment, and so on. And what I'm getting at here is that there is nothing in the character creation process that tells you where you need to start. There is nothing in the rule set that forces you to that limits your options. So you can basically build your character in terms of skills, abilities, powers, I mean, anyone can have a mystical power in symbolism, as a spell. But of course, if you're not also schooled in a mystical tradition, the corruption will bite you pretty hard. So there are those kinds of limitations instead. So if you're a natural fighter that isn't a schooled mystic, you can have the spell, but you will not be able to use it very often, because corruption will eat you up. Anyway, so this, this means that your question was basically you can do other stuff than your typical archetypical, maybe fantasy heroes. And yes, you can, you can actually build whatever kind of character you like. And that has been one of the things that I'm most happy about, and I and I can actually this is a feature that was designed by my colleague, Mateus Lilia, so I can talk about it without bragging about my own accomplishments. I can brag about his since then. So it has a downside in the fact that people who are desperate desperately want their games to be balanced in terms of all all, all types of play, your characters should be equally strong symbolism is not that game. I mean, we are constantly tweaking and looking at with this is we are still on the first iteration of the other, or an original rule set. And we are fully aware that there are stuff that needs to be tweaked a little bit because you can build monsters, monsters, list strong characters, that is much stronger than your you know, fellow companions. And that can make it very difficult for for the gamemaster to design challenges that are interesting for everyone. So so there are stuff that we need to look into. But we also like to hand over a lot of the responsibility to the gaming group, because, you know, playing any type of game no matter how, how open, it is, in terms of in this case, character creation, I think it's kind of important to have a discussion in the gaming group of what kind of game you want to play and, and what type of challenges you like and what type of rewards you I mean, some people are happy to play just on a meta level to spend some time with their friends in real life, while others are really deeply invested in their characters and want to see them evolve and lose treasure and whatnot. So I'm weak, it is difficult to design a game that immediately appears to all kinds of, you know, tastes or preferences when it comes to play styles. So in the end, yeah, I think it's it's it's important for Gaming group to, to have discussion on what kind of game they want to run.
Snyders Return:There may be game game groups that like the idea of having that that central hero and support characters and having the stories drawn out. Through that sense, though there's so many different ways to play to teach RPGs that the groups can can find the play style that suits them and the GM So absolutely, yeah, I
Mattias Johnsson Haake:was actually going to say that I think symbol. Again, this is not my doing. It's mostly Mateus Lilia, I think symbolism is cool in the sense that it is, it is the way it is built makes it very modular and flexible. So, we, this, it may seem very late, but the game released in 2014 in Swedish and 2015 in English, but it's not until last year that we we published game masters guide and when we when we wrote that and designed it we we had it dawned on me just how easy it was to come up with rules modules for different kinds of playstyles For instance, if you want to do pitch battles in symbolism, it is not part of the core mechanic. But designing a system for it was actually really really easy. Because of the way the foundation has been built, so thank you Matteo Celia for that.
Snyders Return:He's getting a lot of credit and rightly so. It's so I'm, I'm sort of scanning around me because I've got things laid around the map for so again, from the start to set. The map for this will hold is such a beautiful, evocative walled city for ventures to go into and the the unwise choice to delve deeper into the forest of data called really sort of fire the imagination in that respect, and the the player character options that we've spoken. You know, I'm read, almost reaching for a character sheet as we speak, and I don't want to be rude and start making characters in the middle of our conversation, because that's just not the way it should be. But it really does sort of engage with with with me, definitely, and obviously countless others. And you mentioned there, it came out in Sweden and in English, and now we have the starter set. And is there much more into the future? Do you have you got projected releases?
Mattias Johnsson Haake:Yeah. My. Well, if Mateus Lilia I have bragged about this is his easy to learn and easy to operate rule set. My main contribution to symbolism is is when it comes to putting the setting together and writing it out. And then also I am happy enough to be the designer of the throne of thorns which is sometimes it feels like an unnecessarily epic adventure Chronicle six port Chronicle and I have just finished writing the fifth episode, which takes place in the dead lands south of the Titans were from which the embryo and Kingdom the people of the Cambrian came Kingdom has fled. So, they will definitely be an episode six of that Chronicle adventure Chronicle. And beyond that, I mean, there with there is nothing announced beyond that. But to us. symbolism is is a game that is it is still picking up momentum. I mean, I think as you have hinted on, it is a lot of people in Britain know about the game of symbolism already. And that is also true for for many other countries in Europe and in Scandinavia. In particular. It has the game has been translated into French, Spanish, Italian, German and Spanish. Brazilian Portuguese, Portuguese as well. So, but especially in in the States, we are seeing, still that the interest and the interest in the game and the momentum of the game is actually picking up speed still, which fills us with great joy. And not only because people seem to like what we have done so far. But we, of course, I hope to be working on syndrome for many, many years to come. And there are no shortage of ideas I can tell you. So, so, no, I just the reason why it seems like some cat has got my tongue at the moment is that I tried to decide if I can tell you if I can make a little spoiler or something, but I think it's best to keep my mouth shut at the moment. Sorry.
Snyders Return:No, absolutely. That is fair enough. You know, I totally respect your professionalism on that front and, and wouldn't want to put you in a position where you would be uncomfortable to do so. But speaking of professional professional professionalism, and things like that, not only have you done the layout and construction for some barn, but you are an editor for or credited as an editor for forgive my pronunciation VSAN bison, bison, this person I've been trying to fuck is that all day in a convincing?
Mattias Johnsson Haake:Yeah, actually, I am I credited in the English version.
Snyders Return:I have it here.
Mattias Johnsson Haake:Yeah, please have a look. Because I, I have worked on that one too. But my main editorial efforts was for the Swedish Swedish version, which of course then was translated into English so maybe I
Snyders Return:should is your is your good self? And, Tom?
Mattias Johnsson Haake:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Editing is ever since since we started yammering. And in the early 2000s, I have heard the sometimes frustrating thing, but most often joyful task of being the, the editor of our texts, both rules and adventures. And it's something that I I enjoy very much. Of course, I can't speak for it. I think the main reason why I enjoy you so much is that I work with the IPS and the people that I work with. Because even if even if you know, as an editor, my job is always to be the grumpy guy. And the overly critical guy. It is, it is still, I mean, luckily the people I work with and work for when it comes to editing aren't very defensive. And I as an editor, even if I speak my mind, I'm also not in very grumpy at heart so and so it's most often it's it's just an interesting creative process be being part of of the text evolving and becoming finished.
Snyders Return:Fair enough. So you know, you've worked and continue to work so hard on us environment and your contributions to vessel and Coriolis. What is it you do? How do you relax? What What is your What is your downtime? Do you play other game systems? Or do you just switch off from ttrpg? Yes, and just relax.
Mattias Johnsson Haake:Yeah. Okay, this is not something I'm proud of. Nowadays, there is not much pen and paper or playing going on in my life. It is seldom and far between this the chances I get to actually sit down with my friends and, and the reason for that is I mean today we have a pandemic that make things harder especially for me as an old fart that hasn't really come to To accept the virtual tabletop platforms as a viable option, but mostly, I think it is a question of, when I start playing, when I'm playing a role playing game, it takes quite a long time before I stopped working. Especially. And I, you know, when you speak to other editors, you will hear this too, whether they edit games or books or whatever, during the first, you know, evening of a rule playing games, because we have sort of weakened some time when we get away from the noise of everyday life and, and try to find some peace and roll some dice together. It takes at least one evening, at night before I start, stop working and start actually playing and enjoying myself. So that that that is just how it is, or that is just how I am. So mostly, I play board games. I am fortunate enough to have a little family here, the older girls or have left the nest, unfortunately. But me and my wife and my son, we play quite a lot of board games, it can be measures of madness, or we haven't played a couple of sessions of Do you know, unlock Yeah,
Snyders Return:the
Mattias Johnsson Haake:Yeah, it's such sort of escape. Yeah. And we played Yeah, we played through the whole pandemic legacy game a couple of weeks ago. So that is one thing, but mostly, mostly, it's, I have a fond fondness for the the sofa and the streaming services.
Snyders Return:Nothing wrong with
Mattias Johnsson Haake:showing a TV series and stuff. I usually say at least I don't know if this is some kind of because I'm a little bit the shame that I find watching TV. So. so relaxing, is that I don't look. I don't watch TV. I, I I don't know how to express this in English. But I look towards or I, I forced my gaze on the screen. But usually, maybe I don't follow what's happening very much. I'm processing the day's work and what I'm going to do tomorrow and, and so on
Snyders Return:just a bit of time to switch your active thinking off for a little bit. And just
Mattias Johnsson Haake:Yeah, exactly. Fair enough. So but I realise it's a little bit boring outside.
Snyders Return:Everybody does things in their own way. And clearly that time helps with your creative process in one way or another. So there's, you know, it's obviously doing the trick.
Mattias Johnsson Haake:Yeah. Yeah. In some sense. It does. Yeah. On the other hand, you know, you also need to exercise your mind in other ways, and especially as, as time goes by Maybe, yeah, you always feel that you should read more, and that you, you should keep up with what's happening right now. I don't know if you would agree to this. But at least when it comes to symbolism. The way we have, if you look at it as a product line, the way it is designed, it sort of resembles the game lines of, of the late 80s with the core books and the massive campaign in several episodes. So in some ways, and I mean, we it's not only from from nostalgia that we decided to develop the games that way, it is actually a very conscious choice in how we want a game line to to function and what we want the game line to provide to the gaming groups. So it's not that but sometimes I feel that it would be would be nice to be a little more have time to to you know investigate what's what's the current way of signing, rotate games and other kinds of games as well.
Snyders Return:I'm sure between you all, as a team across At 3d Publishing you, you'll pick up on these traits and maybe incorporate them without even realising it and just make it your own, as you have with environment and the other amazing releases, you, as a team are continuing to put out. I would say that I've mentioned yourself and the company several times working. I don't know if you have social media links to offer, but where can people go and find either yourself or freely publishing or just the the games that we've mentioned? and many others? out there? Yeah, I
Mattias Johnsson Haake:think the safest bet is actually free league publishing.com. From there, you can find everything else we have a quiet quite, I would say, frequent presence on social media, such as Facebook, and Twitter, and Instagram, and so on, especially Facebook is maybe our main medium for communicating with with the players. So finding us on on Facebook shouldn't be very hard, especially if you go through free league publishing.com,
Snyders Return:I will make sure there are links to to as many of those as I can find in the description below this podcast. It has been an absolute pleasure. And I feel that I could speak to you for several hours going into the different games that we've alluded to and haven't quite had the time to touch on. So maybe you'd be willing to come back on in the future. Or we could discuss this further at another time. If If you'd be happy to do so.
Mattias Johnsson Haake:Oh, absolutely. I just looking at the clock and cannot believe what I'm seeing. But Time flies when you have fun.
Snyders Return:And it has been.
Mattias Johnsson Haake:Yeah. And there's actually we have hardly spoken anything about Coriolis. That could be one topic for the future. And as I said there is things cooking when it comes to the other brands we are working on as well. So absolutely, if not me we have I'm sure the Tomas is would be glad to come back. And we have Mateus Lilia, who's now running the coriolus game line. That would be super happy to come and chat as well. Yeah, we will definitely keep in touch. Perfect. Thank
Snyders Return:you very much. And I'd like to say a special thank you to bold who who has arranged our our meeting? So a huge appreciation to her. But no, it's been an absolute pleasure. I'd love to have you back on the show. Thank you for giving me as much time as you heard. I appreciate your schedule only permits for a certain time period. And yet Definitely, yeah,
Mattias Johnsson Haake:you know what I'm going to do next? Yes, yeah, I'm going to force my gaze on the screen and just drift away in my thoughts. So I have to thank you. It's been a pleasure talking to you. And you had some really interesting question that got me going. I hope not too much. But as I said, I'm super happy to be here. And I'm very glad to come back.
Snyders Return:Thank you very much. Thank you for listening. If you'd like to learn more about the show, then go to WWW dot Snyder's return.squarespace.com. Alternatively, you can find us over on Twitter. At Return Snyder, you have a link tree link in the description of this episode. And if you want to support us, come and join us over on Patreon. And we also have a Discord server. Please leave us a review because we'd love to learn how to improve the channel and provide better content out for for those who are listening until we until we speak again. Thank you