Hello, and welcome to snows return a tabletop roleplay podcast. My guest today is bought us a Rico journey through a kingdom at risk, a story of emotion, trust, dedication, and betrayal. She may have learned this tale by being descended from the monarchy in question or from their vehement defence. We know that they play the hand dealt them, but also find solace in the adventures of the precious little moments we have to ourselves, like a creature or animal of habit, trying not to send mixed messages or build a wall between us. And instead towering up to the heights that are forbidden by some or may cause tragedy for others is game designer, Alex Roberts. Alex, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks for introducing me. Nice. Absolutely. Pleasure. Alex, before we go into the your maiden many and very projects, how did you get into tabletop role playing games, please.
Alex Roberts:So that depends on on when you start that depends on when I sort of count the beginning. Because definitely, as a kid, I was just a bossy kid. And I wanted to be in charge of playing. And I had a sort of idea about d&d, right, like, absorbed from, I don't know, pop culture, right, some cartoon with a d&d episode. And so I was like, Oh, yeah, I'm the dungeon master. And so, you know, when I'm like eight 910, and we're playing what I consider d&d, where it's where I tell everyone what's going on, and they tell me what they're doing. And this is very freeform, I guess. And then in high school, I got to meet people who actually had the books actually played the real Dungeons and Dragons, which at that time would have been like, 3.5. So I played a little bit of that, you know, and in the very end, and like a very high school way, where we just like made characters, and then kind of and then whatever, just kind of wasted time and had fun. And then put a little bit of fourth edition in in when I was in university, which I didn't really care for. And, yeah, I kept I kept coming back to d&d a bunch of different times. And I eventually got to this place where I was like, Yeah, I thought I would like this, but I guess I don't. And I talked to a good buddy of mine, who I was kind of just starting to be friends with at that time, and I knew that he was into RPGs. And I said, Yeah, you know what, Patrick? I've played 3.5. I've played fourth edition. You know, I thought I liked RPGs. But I guess I just don't, I thought I did, but I don't. And he was I think he was running a campaign of burning wheel at that time. And he was like, Oh, my God, Alex. There's so much more out there. So, so he kind of he made this, like, this role playing game group and invited me and so I started playing. This would have been maybe like, 2010 ish, I guess, maybe a little bit after that. And so I started playing everything that was really, really big at that time, like we played fiasco, right? That was my first kind of non d&d role playing game. And I was like, Oh, my God, I love this. This is everything I wanted. And we played Dredd. And we played apocalypse world and my life with Master and shock and misspent youth and like that whole kind of generation of indie games. And I was like, Oh my gosh, it's amazing. So since then, basically, I've just kind of been voraciously seeking new games to play. And I had been playing those for a couple of years. And then I met some people who were LARPing. So I got really excited about that. And so then I just totally fell head over heels in love with LARP started going to conventions and stuff. And then I mean, it wasn't long after that, that I started designing.
Snyders Return:So I mean, that's a many and varied sort of spread across the sort of the tabletop role playing game plethora. What's your What? Well, first of all, we'll start with where people can find you because because that should be enough to hook anybody into come and find you in your thing. So where can they where can they find you in your products?
Alex Roberts:Well, you can find me on Twitter at muscular Pikachu. But yeah, if you go just Hello Alex Roberts calm. You can find my patreon on there where I'm I'm kind of releasing sort of small little experiments and ideas and stuff. But if you want to play my publisher, gosh, for the queen, right? Is that your friendly local game store? Which is like a card based storytelling game. That is 100% truly no GM no prep, not like someone has to facilitator you kind of have to like literally you open that game and start playing. I'm so proud of that game. And you can play Starcraft, which is my two player role playing game of forbidden love that uses the Jenga tower to simulate an increase in romantic or sexual tension. And I have a bunch of different games in anthologies. So I made a game called pop, which is about an online community of people who love very, very much loved balloons. And it's played in person. And the idea is, I mean, we've played it online now because everyone's playing online. But the idea was to simulate the experience of being in an online community using pen and paper. Gosh, I made a game about beloved Canadian TV series, the littlest hobo that's in the the ultimate micro RPG anthology. Gosh, there's probably even more than I'm realising I'm like paying, I've made a lot of games,
Snyders Return:you have to add to the ones you haven't mentioned, our time on earth. And the Kickstarter project that is still up on Kickstarter, precious list, iron ore.
Alex Roberts:Yeah, that's great. That's so those are my more recent ones I made, oh, gosh, where to start. So I made our time on earth in December of last year, or December 2019, actually. And I was working on it, and play testing it and stuff. And so it's a game where you play to aliens who are on earth for a limited time. And you decide why you're visiting, right for research, or you're a tourist or whatever. But you're, you're staying hidden among the humans. And so you play it for six, six weeks, or six days or six months. And you play with someone who's not in the same room as you. And you correspond with them whenever you feel like it in the guise of your alien. So it's basically just a way to talk about your experience to notice your experience as you move through life. And to kind of take a step back from it and realise how strange and beautiful it is. And so you share that with another person. And if you're like me, and you have a lot of moments in life, where you feel like an alien. That's kind of what's meant to express maybe is that you can share that with another person. So I was playtesting it in December of last year. And I just connect with people to play it. And what they told me, what I found is that they were really just like, Oh, it's so nice to connect with someone over a long distance. And then we know that we weren't in a pandemic. And so that particular format of just like just checking in with people and just texting them or just sending them a little picture or a little message in a way that's pretty low key. Yeah, some people have shared that that was a really important experience. So thank you for mentioning that game. Because it is it's just a small little thing. It's up in PDF on on edge. And I really wish more people would play it because I think it's a very cute, and it's a nice little kind of accessible, pervasive experience. Yeah, definitely.
Snyders Return:And just some of the games you mentioned that have such wildly different game mechanics. Have you? I mean, there's what cards, wooden towers, mobile phones, journaling is one for personal animals. What's it like to experiment with all these different nuances of the genre and the mechanics they're in?
Alex Roberts:I think, maybe, I don't know, I get bored easily. And. And I like games that do something really different, right? Like, if I get excited about a game, it's probably because it does something mechanically really weird. That is always, maybe not always, but very often more exciting to me than the content. Right? So if you're pitching a game to me, and you're saying, Oh, it's about this subject that you like, and might get interested, but if you're pitching a game to me, and you're saying, Yeah, and you use you use wooden cubes, but they're not dice, they don't have this on them, but you just position them in a certain way. Like if you know if there's something really novel in the mechanics, I get really excited. So I think I'm the same way as a designer. And, and I don't know, I think also when you're just interacting with the world, there's like a particular lens that you can put on it to be like, could this be a game? Can I play this? Right? So if I'm standing in line at the post office, or if I'm in my backyard, or if I'm cutting the grass in my backyard, I'm playing something then how can I How can I make this into a game where the game was literally just this is such a tangent, but nothing on my mind is just before this interview playing an old video game with my roommate called stellar assault. I've been getting really into emulation lately. So it came out on the 32x. And we were playing all the games for 30 to play this game. And it's like really, really, really simple game. Like it's kind of an asteroids type thing, but you're like first person view. And one of the players controls where the ship is pointing. And the other player controls like the shooting, right? So you're out there and you're eliminating targets and it's like really, really basic polygons, super simple chiptune music and very sparse and very minimalist because of the limitations of the hardware. And so as soon as Kane are playing this game, I'm like, so why are we in this way? work. And also like, so like, I'm the pilot and you're like the gunner like, what's that relationship? Like? Or do all the ships in our fleet to have this pilot gunner thing? What does that mean? When we go back to base? Like, do people just hang out with their pilot or their gunner? Or do they like just hang out with, like with other gunners? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And like, what's that divide? Like? And like, how does that get decided? Just one of them have more status than the other one is the other one looked down on like our, you know, two gunners wish they were pilots or two pilots, wish they weren't gunners, or like, did we decide that or do like, some computer decide that for us? Right. So we're immediately start like, talking about that. And, and so I think, even though I literally when I even when I'm playing a game, I'm just like, oh, but like, what if this was like a game game, though? Like, how would this be a role playing game? Yeah, I don't know. I like exploring stuff like that.
Snyders Return:I want you to make this game. Yeah, the more I'm talking about the more like business plan. So while you're making all these notes, is your your friend sat next to going steer the ship?
Alex Roberts:No, he's very patient. I, yeah, I think I think if you're friends with me, you, you have to actively enjoy me getting excited and going on tangents of being completely distracted from what's happening, maybe to be really important. And actually, he and I are designing a role playing game together because we watch the baseball episode of Deep Space Nine a little while ago. And there's this whole trope about like a baseball episode. Right? So we started talking about a you know, he has a regular d&d group. And we've we've played a little bit of role playing games together. But we started talking about like, what if you could take your regular campaign, right, like your regular team or whatever, for your party? That's the word and have a baseball episode with them. Like, what if we made a game that was a one shot where you take your usual characters, but now you put them in some situation where for some reason, they have to be a baseball team together? And we're for whatever contrived reason you decide. And we're like, Yeah, what would it? What would that be like? Like? How would you set up scenes like that? What are the tropes? What are the archetypes? Like? How would you decide who which character plays which role? And I don't know anything about baseball, but he used to play baseball. So he understands that. And yeah, so we've been we've been watching baseball episodes and trying to come up with game ideas around that. So So yeah.
Snyders Return:One for the future. That's too you've got wrapped up already. I'm going to create a mode I think it's springtime, that is entirely fair, is entirely fair. So with with inspiration coming from, say the video games, or or the, the TV shows and the tropes and things like that, which of the games that you play? Do you think as, as influenced you the most
Alex Roberts:probably, cheese, honestly, games that have had a big impact on me? I think honestly, probably fiasco has had a huge, huge impact on how I think about design. There's something about like, imprinting on it, right? Like it really was the first game I played after Dungeons and Dragons. And I really, when I think about it hadn't played that much. So I think I'm realising this, actually, because as he and I are talking about a baseball episode game, I'm immediately thinking about it in terms of scenes, in spotlight scenes, and in and there's a general design philosophy and fiasco of like, how can I give you the smallest amount of information for you to do the most with, right? Like, it's just this minimalism. And, and there's, it's an almost almost a kind of efficiency, in the simplicity. And so I think, whatever my games end up looking like, I often kind of go back to fee or, or, or it's like, my default, is thinking and fiasco in terms of, let's keep it super simple. Use the minimum information and give people the most space to like, just play around and have fun and, and come up with stuff like really, really give people the latest guidelines that you can feel like kind of let them go. It's
Snyders Return:sounds a lot of fun. And some of your games. Say for instance, our time on earth uses mobile phones. There are there's very few other games that kind of use the technology around us. The only one that really springs to mind is Alice's missing by Spencer Stark. Yeah. which uses mobile phones. Is that something you'd sort of consciously decided or had the pen pal sort of paper system sort of fallen out of fashion?
Alex Roberts:I so yeah, that's the thing is that really my ideal game of our time on Earth, I think would be a pen and paper game, and maybe some people have played it that way. Because really, like, half of the reason why I want to play role playing games is to get away from a screen. So even though it's it's incredibly rich, like design space, and has all these cool affordances I my default is to want to get away from that and like to think about in person stuff in tangible stuff, but it's been really interesting over the past year, and a half Right to see people pivot to Okay, well, yeah, we, you know, really we want to be in person, but what if what if we can't be? And so how do we make the equivalent, you know, of our in person games, which people have been extremely creative with doing really interesting stuff. But also like, there really is a whole traditionelle and which kind of existed before the pandemic to a certain extent of, of live action online game. Like loubs. Right. So I think like, people think about view scream, right as being one of the really early ones, but there's a bunch of them. Yeah, Garrett writing house has written a lot about this, about this tradition and like, and obviously, it's seen a huge uptick in interest. And, and so it's been interesting to see people in that space. And like I said, you know, I've made a game that was specifically to simulate being in an online community, a very, like, divided, confused online community, in real life. Right, using pen and paper, and that was really cool. But you know, this year, I just, I had to run it online, because we just played it in Discord server. So I kind of thought, like, Oh, what is the point of this, but at the end of the day, people had fun. And it was cool, and people had a good time. So, you know, that's what matters.
Snyders Return:Very true. How has the LARPing side of things? How is your pregame pre Trib of ttrpg experienced led you into LARPing? And how is your LARPing helped? Your ttrpg experience?
Alex Roberts:Um, that's a really good question. I think I think I really found when I started LARPing, which for me, has not really been, it's not not been in like vampire LARPing or like, foam swords type LARPing I have played a little bit of combat LARP and I, it's, it's very cool, but it's not the thing that I get excited about, I get excited about like, scenario LARP, short run stuff, freeform stuff, you know, stuff that's kind of contained. That's a single, very focused story with really focused ideas, you know, intense, intense emotional impact that, you know, wraps up into hours. And so I, I kind of discovered that through Lark, that that's, that's a really good role playing experience. For me, I really like it. I'm more excited about that than I am about a weekend long thing, you know, or, or an ongoing thing. And so, I think me and a lot of other designers who discovered that through LARP went, Okay, maybe that's also actually the experience I want to have at the table. And so there's a lot of sensibilities around like, again, when you're LARPing, you have to give people a very, you have to give people the minimum amount of info because they can't have a huge long character sheet, and be referring to it all the time, if they're interacting face to face and moving right around the space. So you have to think about, like, what's the least amount of information I can give people so that they don't have to carry too much in their head, and so that they can use it as a springboard for interesting dramatic interactions. So I think I, you know, I really like LARPing, but I think it also when I'm designing a tabletop game, I'm thinking like, Okay, well, this involves sitting down and involves more narration than movement. But there are still design features of a good LARP that I think apply to what i what i like in a game, which is, again, like about giving people a powerful experience, it being pretty focused it being not too long. And, again, making sure you give people springboards, right, like minimum info for maximum impact. I'm
Snyders Return:always thinking about that. So taking all that into consideration, I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit, and I apologise in advance. Which of your which of your own games do you feel applies those principles? The best? Ooh,
Alex Roberts:good question. I think, I think hero dog saves town, which is that my micro RPG in that collection, is probably the lobbyist, you get very, very little information, you don't really come up with characters, you're just you're just you're writers in the writers room of a TV show about a dog. And one of you plays the dog who stars in and is the head writer and actually the director of the show. And so it's very largely because you're just you're it's very physical. And if you're the dog character, then you will literally like bark at people and shake your head and make dog sounds. So there's that. But I am also I think, when I think about starcrossed, like, in terms of providing a really focused narrative, it definitely does that, like starpha. starcrossed has a scene structure, right? So there's eight scenes in the game. Each one is described on a little card with like three words. And so you always follow this scene structure. But at the same time, the instructions are so vague that they could almost be interpreted anyway. So think of that as like, as very important and it's important to how the design works. And it's important in terms of, again, giving people a range. Not like putting them on a conveyor belt but giving them this railing so that they kind of had just have a little stabilising, like, Okay, what are we going to do in the next scene? Okay, the next scene is called hard at work. Okay, cool. Well, you know, and that that can give you an idea depending on who your characters are and what they're doing. And the character setup is just like two questions. I think there are certain things about the mechanics of starcross that are like that feel kind of lumpy to me now, or they feel kind of like, fidgety or awkward or something that I don't know. Um, but overall, in terms of a very, very focused narrative, with minimum minimum information for maximum impact, and also having like a tangible, embodied component, right, because you're touching the tower when you speak, you're pulling from the tower, when you're doing something that increases the closeness between the characters. There's just a visceral, visceral impact when the tower falls, or when you push it over. So I think, yeah, it's there's so much about that game that I'm like, Oh, I wish it was like a smoother here or like simpler here. But, but overall, like I really, really did bring those priorities to it.
Snyders Return:Would you consider releasing? Or re editing it? Or releasing a sequel, inverted commas? That would work on that? Is that something you could look to do? Or are you proud of, of how it is? You're just aware of its nuances?
Alex Roberts:I think I think I am the only one who has these complaints. Like, if I start hearing from players that they're like, Yeah, that's good. But like, it messes up in these ways, then then we can talk about revising. But I think it's, I think it's just me, I'm the only one who, you know, and that's just the way that you feel about things when you make them right. I'm sure you've had that experience as well of like, everyone's like, Oh, it's great. And you're like, No, I know, I can see all the mistakes. I can see all the
Snyders Return:curtain, I know what I've swept under the carpet. Exactly, exactly. So with it was such a varied portfolio. I'm coming out with new words all the time. I love expanding my vocabulary in the middle of a conversation. Is there is there a mechanic out there that you send that you thought I like? I like the principle in that we've mentioned that the wooden block tower, the Jenga, tower, mobiles, cards and things like that. journals will talk about precious little animals shortly. But is there a mechanic that exists in another game that maybe you thought, I'm just going to put that in the back of my mind, I'm going to plant that seed somewhere. And I'm going to, it's going to come to me at some point, as a formed idea,
Alex Roberts:we think about this, we think, cuz I feel like, there's mechanics like this all the time. Like, I'm always seeing things in games, where I'm like, Oh, so that's really good. One thing I really like, I'm playing an ongoing campaign of night witches right now. And one thing I really like is that you have moves, because it's like a power by the apocalypse game. So you have moves you can do but, but there's kind of separated into day and night. So there's like a different move sheet, whether it's at night or during the day. And that's very specific to that game, because like you're playing these Soviet Air, women who are doing bombing runs in World War Two. And so at night, you're doing, you're bombing you're flying. And then during the day, you you know, have the difficulty of living on base and being the only women in the army and all that stuff. And having relationships with each other and drama and the horrors of war, etc. so that it's very specific to the way that the game works. But there's something about like, doing day night cycle stuff that is cool to me. And I, that has kind of been rolling around in my brain a little bit, especially because the things you do during the day, kind of feed into what happens at night, you there's like a mission pool you can add to that can help you in your roles at night. And that, again, works very well for the way the game is talking about, like camaraderie and connection. And you know how that plays out actually, in combat. So that's cool. But also I'm like, what else can we do with day and night? Like, and switching back and forth and really having like a cyclical approach to games like that. So that's, that's one that's been bouncing around in my head recently.
Snyders Return:That's the the first time I've ever heard of that game. And it sounds great fun.
Alex Roberts:Oh, it's super, super great. Yeah. It's, um, yeah, it's, it's very, very fun. And I don't normally play ongoing games. I really, I level one shot. I played a couple of like two or three, four, maybe five session campaigns here and there, but they don't usually interest me. And so I kind of agreed to play a one shot of night witches. That friend of mine was running. And I said, Yeah, we'll play one shot or like, you know, if it spills over into two sessions, that's fine. And this was months ago. We just haven't stopped playing. I just can't stop playing.
Snyders Return:Yeah, carpet bomb the entire place where you're still playing. Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, yeah. As a sound, I'm trying to expand beyond sort of the two or three, standard tabletop role playing games, trying to broaden my own game horizons. So I'll definitely look into your more of yours. And somebody mentioned, I'm just excited for the for the future for what what you make right now. But precious little things. Which one is sort of expanding on on that for us?
Alex Roberts:So I honestly, really, wow, what do I start with that game? Honestly, a lot of that game was, was driven by the fact that I'm, I'm working on a master's thesis right now. And it, it's just feels like the most endless process. Like, it's very cool. I love research, but but it just feels like it's never going to end. And I will never have something tangible at the end of it. And, and so the same quest thing, right, which Kickstarter has done for a couple of years, where they're like, yeah, just for the month of February, like put up something that has a short term, you know, small goal, and just print something super simple and get it out there. That was really, really, really appealing to me. And I was thinking about it in the months leading up to February, and I think I want to make something, want to finish something and have it be good. And then I think right now is, again, talking about like design sensibilities right now is a good time for journaling games, and a good time for solo games, I think are really having a moment. And so I wanted to make a journaling. And so like, a one player thing that you could just sit down and do a little bit every day, that would just be like a nice, pleasant, good experience. And yeah, so I, I myself, have for many years now, actually, maybe going on two or three years. I like to write down at the end of each day, three good things that happened. And some people call this a gratitude practice. But I've literally just think of it as just noticing three good things, right, it's easier to notice bad things than it is to notice good things. So compensate that for a little bit. So it's been a really enriching practice for me, and has brought me a lot of joy. And in particular has like really helped during really hard times, which the past couple of years have been. And so I thought, like, you know, how can I, like, share that practice with people, but also do it in a way that was playful? And it felt approachable? And yeah, so the end result of that was that he was precious little animal. And I thought, what if it was just a scene, you could just kind of fill in the blanks. And the idea, you know, just for the, for the audience, the premise of the game is that you come up with a precious little animal, you come up with a little sort of humanoid ish, little anthropomorphic, cute animal that has a life of its own that is, in some way parallel to yours. So if you can kind of picture like a Peter Rabbit, or alley or like, Hello Kitty, or something like that, you come up with this cute little animal. And then at the end of the day, you have to pick three things that happened to you that day. And that also will happen to that animal. So three good things in your life, you have to imagine them happening to that animal, and write down how it went for them. Right. So the idea is that, like, they live this cute little storybook life. So, you know, if you had you know, if your friend Mark, you know, you had a zoom call with your buddy mark, then, you know, the little bunny had, you know, they're our friends stop by and you know, who'd happened? So there's like, yeah, so there's this translation process that happens, but But really, the game is about like treating yourself as though you are a precious little animal, which I believe very much that people are. And, and so it has that noticing practice of just getting in touch with your experience and remembering, okay, what are three good things that happened each day? And then there's also that idea of like, translating it into this compassionate thing into like, like, what would I want to happen to someone else to like a precious person or precious little being. And so, you know, I play tested a little bit, but I really wonder about the impact that it has on people. And I think it has a good chance of putting people more in touch with the good things that are happening in their lives. But I also wonder, and I don't know, like, I really hope that it orient people towards doing good things for themselves and giving themselves nice things to write about later. Which again, like just playing, you know, particularly people who've been playing really in the last year when there's not as much opportunity to get out and do nice things, or you have to give a very limited scope of experience that you have to pay very careful attention to and we're being bombarded with bad news and people are experiencing grief and loss. And so, yeah, I don't I don't know what kind of impact it's really had on people. I've gotten good feedback, but But yeah, my secret hope is that it just, it makes people treat themselves more preciously, I
Snyders Return:guess, I'm sure it does and the artwork is, it invokes the sort of simplicity is is perhaps the wrong word, but it is sort of draws you in to sort of fill in the blanks with your own mind, rather than sort of laying it all out there in a, in a overly graphical art style that you may not connect with. So it's
Alex Roberts:Thank you. And please say simplicity because I love simplicity. And, you know, I started thinking, you know, when, because the Kickstarter did way better than I was expecting. And I thought, like, you know, these are just my little animal drawings. Like, what if I got a really good illustrator, you know, to do some really beautiful pictures for it. And I thought that would be nice. But honestly, one of the things is that you are invited you to play or are invited to draw your little animal. And oh, my God, I find it so beautiful when people draw their animals, and then they like, tweet about them or send me a picture. I love that so much. And the thing is, I think that, you know, I'm not I'm not an amazing artist, they're pretty simple drawing, but the idea is that, like, don't be intimidated by it, like, Don't think, Oh, I can't draw it unless I draw something really good. Like, no, no, just draw it. Just do it. Look, I did it. One. It's okay. Great. So you can do one too. So, yeah, that accessibility and that just like, and simplicity, very much. So particularly, because, again, I made the short span of time, I've really wanted to have a finished product relatively quickly. The idea had been around for many months, but making it happened in a relatively short span of time. And I wanted to be able to produce it, you know, like locally, right? I just had it printed at the print shop on campus. Like, that was really important to me. So yeah, simplicity is actually the the highest compliment for this particular game.
Snyders Return:And just the train of thought that because you draw it yourself, you connect with that, press Atlanta more more. So
Alex Roberts:I hope so. Yeah, I really hope so. And I really, this is something I like making players do is, is go out on a limb a little bit creatively. And so I don't like, you know, there's illustrations in precious little animal, but there's no, like, you can pick this one or that one, if you want. And in starcross, a lot of people have asked me like, can you you know, can we have like some sample? Or like, Can I have a list of characters or pairings to choose from? And I'm like, No, because I believe in you, I believe that whatever you make for yourself, is going to be more interesting for you not because it's like better, but because it's, it's you, right? Like, if you fill in blanks, you're gonna come up with stuff that's meaningful to you, that reflects your experience that reflects how you feel about things that reflect what media you like, whatever it is, right. So I know, it's intimidating for some people, I think sometimes to like, to come up with a lot from like, just from nothing. But everyone can do it, I believe that very firmly. And I really, really think that whatever I give you as a designer is not going to be half as good as what you come up with on your own,
Snyders Return:I would say and a counterpoint to that. A lot of people might refer or prefer lists and archetypes, because they're uncomfortable to let themselves go a little bit and and put themselves out on the page was, as you say, your games, challenge them to do so and bring the player in the character form a bond that potentially you wouldn't get from just going, I'll be disclosed, Ranger x, class, race, ancestry, whatever it is, you can go Yeah, that's me. Whereas you have to apply yourself to the game in some way. And connect with it.
Alex Roberts:Yeah. And again, like, you know, I talked about this idea of like, the minimum amount of information for the maximum impact, right, giving people that springboard, but that's not an exact science, right. And so sometimes, you can give, like, how much is enough to get them going without, without filling in blanks that they could do for themselves. Like, I don't want to do anything for a player that they could do for themselves, because they'll do a better job of it. Right? If they can, if they can just do it. There, it's gonna be more interesting to them than whatever I give them. But there is this question of like, how much is enough? Like how much? How much, you know, points them in the right direction? That you know that I'm hoping for the designer? And how much kind of gives them that gives them that push or that spring? versus kind of leaving them cold any? And again, you have no way of knowing I mean, you play test, right play test places play test, but, but like, it's never 100% you can't actually say
Snyders Return:it's tough. But moving on to a game that does have gorgeous artwork that is ready and filled up. Not filling out the blanks, because there's there's always space between the words and the cards in this respect, which ones has a little bit more about for the queen? Sure.
Alex Roberts:Yeah. Yeah. So for the queen, some absolutely beautiful art that we had commissioned from a bunch of different illustrators. There's like 12 or 15 cards, and there's almost that number of illustrators, we really wanted a lot of different perspectives and different styles and different people working on it and And it was really fun to work with them. And the thing is, honestly, honestly, when I started working with evil hat who published the game? They were like, yeah, so let's get some illustrations. And I initially said, No, I was like, No, no, no. Because I've been playing this game for a couple months with just like, a deck of index cards that I had written on, right? Like, that's, that was my prototype. And I was like, No, no, it shouldn't, because you're giving them ideas. Like you want them to just start raw and like, start fresh and start like, with nothing and haven't build it from scratch. But they were 100%, right? Because so many people have said, Oh, I got interested in this game, because of the art or like, Oh, you know, there's something about this piece that really spoke to me, and it was beautiful, or whatever. So the publisher was 100%, right? This way, we're publishers, because they can give you a viewpoint on things sometimes. But, but But yeah, so in for the queen, you have these evocative pieces of art that you can choose to use or not, by the way, I I still, as much as I agree, the art is amazing, and a great asset to the game. I love it when people play without making any, any of the sort of illustrations of the queen. But even that, right, even if you start with that illustration, or that idea, you don't name your character, you don't have a character sheet in this game. And you don't decide in advance where you are or who you are or where you're going. You have, again, the very, very minimum setup, the idea is that you're on a journey with Queen, she's going to go into a land that may or may not be hostile. It's a dangerous journey, you don't know exactly why you're going. And, and the idea is that you you the players are the only people in the retinue with this Queen, you're the only one accompany her, no one plays the queen. And it says in the game, she chose you because she knows that you love her. So you start out that way, right? Like that's the seat. And then all you do is just draw questions from a deck of question cards. And then you answer them in character, or your answer them about your character. And the questions can be anything from you know, what's the word? What's the land that you're travelling through right now? And why does it make you nostalgic? Or What's the hardest part on this journey? And how do you get the retinue through it? Or it could be something like, when did you know you first? When did you first know you were in love with the queen? Or you don't know if you can forgive the Queen for something, what wasn't what happened. And these just come out randomly. So you end up building a character. And that's kind of in response to the questions, but mostly in response to whatever comes to mind. When you look at that question, and however you answer it, and it's, it's, again, you're starting from nothing. So just whatever you answer is true. And whatever anyone else says is true. And you just build from there. And so I mean, yeah, talking about that balance between giving people the springboard giving people enough to go on while making it interpretive and making sure that they can take it in their own direction wherever they want to. Yeah, something about that. Something about that is very, very cool. And it makes it so much fun to watch people play, to play with people with different experience levels to play with people play different kinds of games. Right play that was our first play. That was like, hardcore d&d. People play that with like, you know, people who only play apocalypse World Games like to play it with people who've never played a role playing game before is my favourite thing in the world. Because Yeah, people just really bring themselves to the game and they end because they, because they have so few guardrails, even though it's a very specific setup in certain ways, right? fictionally But after that, you're kind of just off the leash. And people bring themselves right they just bring their assumptions and they bring their priorities their bring what they think is cool, what they think is sad, what they think is romantic, and, and they just put it out there and it's amazing to watch it. I just love it.
Snyders Return:It sounds good. If someone puts I'm sure they I have to hear that description. We're interested in seeing the gameplay work. Is there any way that where they could find examples of it?
Alex Roberts:Yes. Um, so there's a couple of games up on the actual like, channel which is, I guess not very specific. But Shawn Linares channel. He works for evil hat who published the game, so they put up a couple of playthroughs that are really good. There's one on the official role 20 channel because there's like a role 20 module to play it in. That is quite good. I'm trying to think I think there's an episode of the one shot podcast that where the way we play for the queen. So that's like an audio one. I think so.
Snyders Return:Yeah. Jeff stone with the party one.
Alex Roberts:I think you're right. Yeah, just to check in. I play for the queen. Oh my god. I don't even remember. Cut that out because I'll feel bad if I can just repeat the question numbers game
Snyders Return:because I checked it before I came on.
Alex Roberts:Oh, okay. Great. Um, yes, I played with Jeff Stormer. There's also actually is a really really great play of me and Jeff playing Starcraft, that is amazing where we play professional wrestlers who are rivals. It's fantastic. It's fantastic. So yeah, those are there's a bunch of different places to hear it. And you if you listen to a couple of actual plays, you will really hear how different people have very different answers to the same question like wow,
Snyders Return:guys, it's it sounds a lot of fun and really exciting. And that's available from so for the queen is available from evil and,
Alex Roberts:yes, evil hat productions. So you can I think if you're in the States, you can order it directly from them. But otherwise, talk to your friendly local game store. And Starcraft is from bully pulpit games. So I which again, I think you can order directly from them, but if not support your local game stores, folks. They need you go in there and tell them to order your copy.
Snyders Return:Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. SWOT is what's next for you from from now until trading these two games we spoken about.
Alex Roberts:That's right. Well, yeah, obviously. What's next was I have to get on this this Starfighter game. So so I am going to I am working on this baseball game, episode game. And that's giving me a lot of joy right now. I also recently finished a game called rat trash Party, which I designed with my other roommate who has never designed a role playing game before. And it's really it's a board game. It's really a board game. And she did all the illustrations and stuff. And that's that was really, really fun. I love playing with first time role players. I am really discovering that I love designing with people haven't designed games before. They have very cool ideas. So yeah, my roommate Dana Johnson and I just finished a rat trash party. So that should be up on my interest soon. And then my roommate Paul Smith and I are are working on I live in a house with like a bunch of people. And so he and I are working on baseball episode together. So I we're gonna play test it this weekend, I think and we'll see where it goes. Cure immigrant Agron, who is not by no means an inexperienced games are brilliant game signer care imigran. and I are working on a game called anemones to lovers. Because she just tweeted that phrase. And I was like, tell me more. So we have a little Google Doc opens, we're working on that. So those are kinds of things. For now, I think long term, what I would really like to do is, is published a sequel to for the clean, I would lots of people are making descended from the Queen games that are using that framework of like prompt cards to tell different kinds of stories. And there's some really wonderful descended from the Queen games out there that I'm very excited about. And, and it's very exciting to me, it's kind of making me think like, Well, how do I follow that up? Or how do I you know, is it going to be a continuation of the Queen story? Or am I just making a descended from the Queen game that uses similar mechanics, but in a different way to tell a totally different story. So I'm playing around with that right now. So I think that I'm gonna keep putting stuff out on my Patreon, kind of keep collaborating and putting stuff up on my twitch page, which is, hello, Alex roberts.io. So I'm gonna keep doing all that. But I think the next I'm hoping that the next big project for me will be something that a follow up to for the queen. So hopefully, if you like for the queen, you'll love this type thing. But we'll see what it looks like.
Snyders Return:All right, well, thank you for agreeing to come on. You've given a few other places where we can find you. But we tried to remind everybody where they can find you on social media, and sort of follow you and things like that.
Alex Roberts:Sure. Yeah. So you can find me Hello, Alex Roberts comm is your best bet. Diet does have links to everything on there. If you're Twitter person, you can find me at muscular Pikachu. I've had that handle for over 10 years. So don't don't come at me bad. I love it. I'm also Hello Alex Roberts on like Instagram and a couple of other places. But But yeah, hello, Alex Roberts, calm, find everything there.
Snyders Return:All right, I will make sure all those links are in the description below this podcast. Please go and follow them support Alex, and the wonderful games that have been made for our enjoyment. I'd love to have you back on the show potentially for a one shot in the future. Oh, sure. Yeah, that sounds fine. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah. sounds brilliant. So we can organise that separately. But yeah, it's been an absolute pleasure to get to meet you speak to and learn about your work.
Alex Roberts:It's It's been wonderful to be on. Thank you so much for interviewing me. Fantastic. Well,
Snyders Return:I look forward to speaking to you again in the future. Alex. Thank you. Thank you for listening. If you'd like to learn more about the show, then go to WWW dot Snyder's return.squarespace.com. Alternatively, you can find us over on Twitter. At Return Snyder. You have a link tree link in The description of this episode. And if you want to support us, come and join us over on Patreon and we also have a Discord server. Please leave us a review because we'd love to learn how to improve the channel and provide better content out for for those who are listening until we until we speak again. Thank you