Interview - Shelly Mazzanoble - How To Dungeon Master Parenting

Today I chat with Senior Brand Manager for Dungeons and Dragons, Podcaster, Roleplayer and, Author - Shelly Mazzanoble.

We discuss her new book 'How to Dungeon Master Parenting - A Guidebook' D&D 2024, Parenting and much more.

You can find Shelly and all of her associated content via the links below.

Website:
https://shellymazzanoble.substack.com/
https://www.dndbeyond.com/

Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/shellymoo/

Other:
https://linktr.ee/shellymoo?utm_source=linktree_profile_share&ltsid=376447a6-a323-4b33-b391-6ccd3a84a3ba

https://www.amazon.com/How-Dungeon-Master-Parenting-Adventurers/dp/1609389816/ref=sr_1_1?crid=301RZ45FIG54K&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.4RC4s0_9IBTCWeFaAntcRHihb5bmtCq5Ch9CtkoFuByBGY20stydMcwC2JPVVeKh196eoNE0gfIokMsrA3yP_xzI_YmmRivad9iJXi2_ZIKRycTSMnShT9zfcRn0BL0DXiDX9IeN4U8aoDqj4EIXTZGsC8Q9Pznd5lSGny9OkjRuiH9CO99iSApbDfpc5P2_.jQxu1-PysuveYNPoKN33rUJxuvifBpfTwZR_B4YBGGQ&dib_tag=se&keywords=how+to+dungeon+master+parenting&qid=1730762130&sprefix=how+to+dun%2Caps%2C153&sr=8-1

https://bookshop.org/p/books/how-to-dungeon-master-parenting-a-guidebook-for-gamifying-the-child-rearing-quest-leveling-up-your-skills-and-raising-future-adventurers-shelly-mazzan/21501394?aid=95910&ean=9781609389819&listref=my-books-d2456bbf-ac5a-499a-9ca3-1a2e7a91fdb9&

https://tertulia.com/book/how-to-dungeon-master-parenting-a-guidebook-for-gamifying-the-child-rearing-quest-leveling-up-your-skills-and-raising-future-adventurers-shelly-mazzanoble/9781609389819?utm_source=preorder&utm_campaign=preorder__MAZZANOBLE__09102024

Calibration Tools:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/114jRmhzBpdqkAlhmveis0nmW73qkAZCj

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Yours Sincerely,

Adam 'Cosy' Powell

Transcript

Adam Powell (00:15.077)
Hello and welcome to Snyder's Return, a tabletop roleplay podcast. My guest today invites us to join her on two adventures in parallel. Though separate in concept, they can also be intertwined, overlapping and mirrored in so many ways. This is and is not fantasy, as worlds, words and wonders are investigated, explored and enjoyed.

Joining me is author, podcaster, role player, dungeon master, brand manager, and above all else, mother, the wonderful maternal Shelly Mazzanoble. Shelly, thank you so much for joining me today.

Shelly (00:51.244)
Thank you, that was an amazing introduction. think you have to, I'm just gonna write that down and please frame it. It's beautiful, thank you. Yes, thank you.

Adam Powell (01:00.791)
I'll make sure you get the transcript and you can blow it up onto t-shirts or something. But thank you so much for coming back and joining me on the show. It's been quite some time since we last spoke. So for those of you who unbelievably may be unaware of who you are and why you are back on the show, would you mind giving us a brief introduction to yourself, please, Shelley?

Shelly (01:13.013)
Yeah.

Shelly (01:24.68)
Of course. As you mentioned, brand manager, I'm currently the senior brand manager for Dungeons and Dragons. So some people know me through that work. Some people know me from Dragon Talk, podcast that I co-hosted with Greg Tito, which actually turned into a book, which is why we talked the first time and had a lovely conversation about Welcome to Dragon Talk. And because I just really wanted to come back and chat with you, I wrote another book.

And I will keep writing books if you keep writing intros like you did.

Adam Powell (01:54.683)
Wow.

Adam Powell (01:58.331)
Well, I will continue to compile these intros on the scope of your fantastic work. But while we're talking around in circles and patting each other on the back or ourselves, I'm not really sure now at this point. it's incredible. You mentioned Dungeons and Dragons. It's had a rules expansion and a re-release and that is something we can definitely touch on later, but tied within the book, but tied to you directly is your latest release.

Shelly (02:09.024)
Yeah, this is going very well. I love it.

Adam Powell (02:27.993)
your authorship and thank you so much for sending me a copy to read prior to this interview.

Adam Powell (02:40.697)
How to Dungeon Master Parenting, which is in a subtitle, a guidebook.

Adam Powell (02:50.317)
I love it, but I'm intrigued as to where the genesis of this idea comes from. Clearly, you've mentioned the work for Wizards of the Coast under the D &D banner, but to bring these two seemingly separate worlds together, where did that idea come from?

Shelly (03:10.228)
Yeah, it's well, I do spend a lot of time around Dungeon Masters. So I do feel like I study them quite often. And I find them to be fascinating creatures, probably just the most enlightened beings of all. But really, the idea for this came from the time I spent starting a D &D club at my son's elementary school. I did the club for two years. I was spending a lot of time around other people's children.

And that can actually inform your parenting quite a bit, but I found that it was just the role of Dungeon Master for these kids. was their introduction to D &D. And I took it so personally. I just really wanted them to love D &D. I really wanted them to have a good time. Their parents paid to get them into this club. I didn't take them. The money goes to the PTA. Let's just be clear. It's not for me.

me, but I volunteered my time. But they showed up every Friday afternoon. They were excited to be there. I just really wanted them to just love this experience. I think, which is probably true for a lot of Dungeon Masters, I overthought everything I was doing. I questioned everything. think, I doing it right? Are they having fun? Are they learning anything? Is this really how you do this? Are they having...

Are we making good memories here? Would they be better off if it was someone else as their DM? What could I be doing more of? What could I be doing better? You know what? These are a lot of the same questions I ask myself about my parenting. Am I doing this right? Is my son going to be okay? Is he going to have, is he learning anything from me? So that was my first tip that like, there is a lot of similarities here between

Adam Powell (04:43.611)
Hmm.

Adam Powell (05:00.505)
Hmm.

Shelly (05:07.894)
parenting and DMing. I also had a very hard time keeping the mom me out of the D &D game. Half the time, they're coming up with really cool ideas and they want to climb up the slippery mountain and then jump off of it or wake up a sleeping owl bear. I'm like, that's so awesome. This is going to be a great story. But then the other part was like, you don't have a healing potion or you're not wearing enough armor. Get back in here, young lady.

Adam Powell (05:15.899)
you

Shelly (05:38.71)
So you can't always take, you know, the mom out of the dungeon master, I realize, but you've probably read articles and essays and from people who say like, I learned how to do X, Y, and Z from being a dungeon master. I'm a really great leader in business because I was a dungeon master. I'm somebody who's super creative. A lot of people who work in Hollywood say like they cut their teeth on D &D.

They learned how to tell great stories. They learned how to plot. They learned world building. They learned how to create an interesting complex character because of the NPCs they were creating for their game. So it's not unusual that people are learning things in D &D and applying them to real world stuff. So I started to think about what if I could approach the idea of parenting

Adam Powell (06:22.203)
Hmm.

Shelly (06:36.448)
the same way that a dungeon master would approach planning a campaign and just applying some of those skills. One of the things that I think DMs do really well is they are really good at managing different types of people. And even if you only have one kid, they can often be different people, like all in the same day. And I just think like really understanding.

Adam Powell (06:50.629)
Hmm.

Shelly (07:01.686)
We all have the same goal here. We're all just trying to tell a really great story. We're all just trying to go on this wonderful adventure together. And I'm just here to support you. I'm as a dungeon master. And I loved that philosophy so much as like being a parent. So I, I'm new. I'm, I'm like a born again mother. I think that the similarities were, were, were eerie really. And just when I overlaid pair.

Adam Powell (07:03.803)
Hmm.

Shelly (07:31.894)
the dungeon mastering to parenting. It's like it fit pretty seamless. And it actually, I do feel like made me a better parent.

Adam Powell (07:42.147)
It's so I've read and really enjoyed the book and would recommend it. So before I sort of delve a little bit deeper, where can we find the book? When's it available? And, you know, when and where can we get our hands on it?

Shelly (07:56.684)
So it is available November 12th. So coming right up and it's perfectly timed. know, treat yourself to a gift, treat a friend of yours or who's a new parent or existing parent or thinking about parenting or even someone who just loves pop culture. So yes, perfectly timed for holiday. Hopefully it's available wherever you buy your books. You can get it online, you can get it in stores. There's even some...

game shops that are carrying it. So I've heard the ones in my neighborhood are carrying it, which is amazing. So yeah, there's a several online retailers have it and your favorite local independent bookstores should have it as well. If they don't, please ask them to carry it.

Adam Powell (08:44.315)
Absolutely. For those that want to buy it online or at least maybe track it down for sort of a brick and mortar store, please scroll down and follow the links and sort of follow through with the purchase. Speaking of where we can find your book, where can we also find you so people can come and support you in a wider sort of context?

Shelly (09:04.578)
well, you can find me on Instagram at ShellyMoo, or you can find me on Substack. I have a newsletter that I send out almost, mostly weekly, but could be bi-weekly sometimes, but that's at ShellyMazzanoble.Substack.com. I write a lot about parenting there, and sometimes D &D.

Adam Powell (09:29.147)
Well, I will make sure those links are down in description below. So as I said, please scroll down, follow those links partially by the book. Having said I've read it, I will be picking up a physical copy because there's something about reading off a screen I still haven't got the hang of just yet. the tax, I feel a book. Yes. I may be a little bit old school in that respect.

Shelly (09:42.69)
I I like to hold the book. Yes, me too. I appreciate it.

Adam Powell (09:52.645)
But picking up on some of the themes you've mentioned there through the book, and we'll get to the structure of the book itself, it really feels like you are embedded in the pages in that respect. The way the book talks, not at you. It's not like a, it says guidebook in the title, but it's not like a recipe book of steps to take it. It's almost like a,

a conversation that we're having with you and a shared experience as we read through your own experiences and some of the clever uses of the Dungeons and Dragons mechanics that sort of put throughout it and the stat blocks, which I'd love to touch on in a little while, are also fantastic. with respect to sort of putting so much of yourself into the book, what was it like sort of

Shelly (10:39.846)
yeah, those are my fave.

Adam Powell (10:51.001)
choosing what to put in, what to leave out, how to structure the book in that respect, and sort of invite us into your life, but also share universal experiences.

Shelly (11:02.56)
Yeah, that's a great question. So I think there is only when you're writing about parenting, it is presumed that you have a child, at least a child one child. And it's it's a tricky area with how much you share about your experience, but how much you're actually sharing about someone else who maybe isn't old enough to give you permission to share those stories. Those stories are out there forever. My son is

now 11. So we do can have those conversations about, I want to write about this. Do you want me to not say this or just not share this and he can and he's still only 11 like in his mind, he's like, Hey, this might help me become a YouTuber. Hell yeah, I want you to share this. But I still I have to be mindful of of him like thinking about him in 10 years and 20 years.

Adam Powell (11:52.204)
Ha ha.

Adam Powell (11:58.779)
Hmm.

Shelly (12:00.298)
Is he going to want the story to be out there? Right now, I might find something really funny that's still like hard for him. And I don't want him to ever look back and think like you were making fun of me. That's not at all what I'm doing here. So there is always that line of how much to share. I want to make this personal. want to make this relatable. I want to be honest and open when I'm writing about parenting.

but not at the expense of exploiting my son to do so. My husband on the other hand, he's fair game. We're in this together. And he's, do let him read things in advance just to make sure he's okay with it as well. But there's, I think what really drives me to talk about the parenting experience is I think about me in those first few months.

Adam Powell (12:37.931)
Ha ha ha.

Shelly (12:58.85)
And it was really hard. And I did not just slip into motherhood gracefully at all. It was, I was super anxious. I just, you know, I didn't know what I was doing. was never diagnosed with anything, but I probably should have been. And it's very common, but I didn't know that. I felt very alone and I felt like I don't want to talk about these things with my friends. I don't want to talk about this with...

my mom because nobody told me that when they were struggling. So it just makes you feel like you're, doing something wrong or it's just, it's you. It's not the situation. And the older my son got, the more I got my footing under me. There was, I was just having the conversations often and people were like, yeah, yeah, totally for me too. Like, well, why didn't you tell me that? Like, what?

this would have made things so much easier. So really I write for that person that's sitting there struggling, thinking that they're doing it wrong, thinking that this is the hardest thing they've ever done. What's wrong with me? Why isn't this connecting? And really just all of those romanticized stories that you hear like the first time you hold your baby, like your heart will explode and maternal instincts, maternal instincts might not kick in right away.

Where is the instinct might be overshadowed by the crippling anxiety that you're also feeling. Plus like there's all of the hormonal things that are happening. And I know that it's difficult for, for fathers as well. But again, I'm speaking from a mother and from a person who gave birth to a child and all of the things that happen physically to your body after that. But, I just, it's to me, it's just, it's very important to be

honest and to really talk about those things and try to normalize those conversations. But the other part of me, I have to also know that I'm putting it out there and it's out there forever. And I am okay with that. But I also think about my son, again, reading these stories and then thinking, wow, I don't want him to feel bad. It wasn't him. This is totally, it's a classic situation of it's not you, it's me. It really is.

Adam Powell (15:07.483)
Hmm.

Adam Powell (15:23.387)
You

Shelly (15:23.872)
And I never want him to ever think like there was ever a moment of his life that he wasn't so loved and cared for. But, you know, and think that he did something to, to make, you know, me feel that way. It certainly is not the case, but really it's just, and I think that the being honest and hopefully reaching somebody who might also be struggling in that way and making them go, okay, maybe this is normal.

Maybe this isn't me. Maybe I can get help. Maybe I can talk about this. Then it's totally worth it. I'll talk about it all day long.

Adam Powell (16:01.315)
Absolutely. And you are incredibly open and honest through the book. And although we haven't sort of gone into how the book is broken down into sort of structures and chapters and things like that, it sort of has everything from your...

prenatal classes and sort of going through that.

Shelly (16:21.381)
yeah. I tried to be prepared. I tried.

Adam Powell (16:25.403)
the Swiss ball and all that sort of the gym ball and all that sort of good stuff. And it goes through your sort of the not the birth because that sounds almost but the C section and then into all the stages. then you've as you say, you've been very open and honest. it's it's a refreshing because I wouldn't normally despite the links to, you know, the

Shelly (16:37.302)
Yep.

Adam Powell (16:51.567)
the world's greatest role playing game. wouldn't naturally look to pick up a book like this, but I'm so glad I have. Because while I am not the one that would be giving birth, was there, thankfully, both at conception and birth of my child. Just to put that one out there. So I have seen it from the other side. And you do a wonderful job of sort of recognizing that.

Shelly (16:55.786)
Right. thank you, Adam.

Shelly (17:09.097)
Hahaha

Adam Powell (17:20.929)
is a part for the other parent or the guardian, depending on personal situations and circumstances and even those who are doing this alone. And so you have provided plenty of support for those who are going through it directly, those like myself that are part of the process, but not physically involved in all of the processes. I think that's fair to say.

Shelly (17:31.263)
Exactly.

Shelly (17:45.75)
Yeah. Yeah.

Adam Powell (17:47.291)
and those who are sort of going through the process alone. So.

Shelly (17:52.066)
hard on everybody though. My husband struggled too. know that.

Adam Powell (17:57.231)
Well, having read a little bit at the start, the first third, should we say, where he dives across the kitchen counter and over some stores and makes the save, I was desperately concerned as to how bruised he was having made this heroic effort to make that save, as it were. But I won't reveal all the secrets. But the book itself, we've mentioned a few things. How do you split it between your personal experiences

Shelly (18:09.282)
you

Shelly (18:15.432)
Yeah.

Adam Powell (18:27.356)
and sort of generalisational help and the use of the Dungeons and Dragons structure and format.

Shelly (18:36.78)
Yeah, that was hard because when I started outlining it, I kept finding more things that I wanted, like, there's another parallel here, or you can compare this to this. And it's all just working. There's too much. Like there could actually be a second book in here. But I did try to structure it in a way that like early, like you're...

Adam Powell (18:54.715)
Hmm.

Shelly (19:04.418)
planning for the baby all the way to like when you're basically sending them off on their their final adventure, you know. So it's it's meant to be a little bit linear and following a parenting journey in that regard. I tried to include things that I thought were going to be actually helpful and like, what is your parenting style?

Do I need a parenting style? How will I figure out a parenting style? And I mean, again, it can be very parallel to how you figure out what kind of character you want to play or what your DMing style might be. Again, like they kind of matched up pretty similar. But also like just how there's a section in there about trying to figure out what your child's alignment is. That was one of the...

I liked I loved writing that I just thought that was so much fun. But just you know, figuring out this my kids alignment is, you know, lawful good. And here's like sample activities or things that they might enjoy. And here's like things that they probably really don't enjoy. But but also really rooting it in like wanting to actually be helpful and and give advice. There is humor in it because I find that when you're being very honest, it helps.

to also laugh about it. just think that's very, it's disarming and people open up. think people feel like more trusting. Like I just, I can take it in more if you're like, you're making me laugh while you're also telling me a horrific story. There's not a lot of horrific stories. There's just honest stories. I hope not at least.

Adam Powell (20:51.663)
There are some good stories as well. I've literally written a page worth of notes of things that I've picked out through my reading and sort of really enjoyed. But I'm keen to know, you mentioned there your child's alignment. There's also classes, the child's class, I thought that was clever.

Shelly (21:17.121)
Yeah.

Adam Powell (21:21.519)
the DMing styles, sorry, DM slash parenting styles. So which of those was your favorite to create in that respect?

Shelly (21:33.408)
the parenting styles.

Shelly (21:40.246)
I have my copy here.

Adam Powell (21:40.431)
Yeah, so it's like helicopter parenting and.

Shelly (21:47.982)
It's probably kind of clear. Maybe I tried to be unbiased. I really did. But there's it's probably pretty clear which ones I gravitate towards. So I love a good

sandbox. Well, okay, so I thought this was interesting. The type of DM I enjoy playing with, the way I matched it up to the parenting style did not match up with my parenting style. It's a it's about me as a dungeon master, I found I'm going to find my I'm looking through the book right now because I hear you up. My DMing style is equal I would say to the narrator.

style. And that actually did match up to what I think my parenting style is, which is I'm almost embarrassed to say it. Gentle parenting. I did not choose gentle parenting. Gentle parenting chose me. It really depends on your kid. You know, like I grew up with a tough love mother. So I just assumed like, guess that's what you do. I'm going to be a tough love mother. Well, my kid does not respond.

to tough love. He's like, he's kind of an empath. He like picks up on energy on, on emotions. He'd never liked it if we raised our voices, even if we were just raising our voice just to get his attention. He always like thought he was in trouble. So he, that did not work for him. That became very, very clear. So I took a more gentle approach and it's, it works. It works for us. So,

I did that that actually did match up. am very curious. Some of my friends who have read this section, they even if they're not Dungeon Masters, they did say, yes, I think I would be that way in a game. And it does match up to how I feel like I am with a parent. I would be curious if you felt like that matched up for your style as well. It's okay if it didn't, but just curious.

Adam Powell (23:56.675)
I mean, yeah, the gentle parenting is, and now I feel like I've taken on an even softer tone, is how I've of resonated with my son. And he seems to respond to that the best. It's a similar approach that his teachers take trying to sort of guide him because of his personality and...

Adam Powell (24:24.121)
Emotional intelligence, I guess, is the first way to put it. But within the book, there's also sort of small quizzes to sort of test ourselves and our knowledge of you as well. There's a fun interplay between reader, author, and the subject matter, which I found so engaging to sort of pick up and pull through. So it must have been fun to sort of test yourself

Shelly (24:25.932)
Yeah.

Adam Powell (24:52.771)
as you mentioned there, the parenting style, but on a number of different factors on how you see scenarios playing out.

Shelly (25:02.09)
Yes. Yeah, definitely. It was very introspective. Like I did have to really think about me, my relationship to my son, my husband, like our, what our family is like, what other families are like. There's, I mean, we...

Adam Powell (25:04.635)
you

Shelly (25:25.678)
the family that I exist in is a traditional family, really like re-examining what a traditional family even is. mean, there's families can look so different. Like, who's to say what is the normal quote unquote family? So writing the book, obviously I'm talking about my own lived experiences, but really trying to be mindful of

who's reading this book? Like really who's what is what is a family nowadays? And like you had mentioned, there's solo parents, there's families that are step families, there are adoptive families, there are families with two dads, there are families with two moms, they it's where I live, it's very common. So

There's just a lot of my friends have non-traditional families. So I was always just trying to be mindful of who the audience really is for this book. And it was very eye-opening. it was also very, it just made me appreciate just what a family is and all of the different ways it can be represented.

Adam Powell (26:48.251)
And sort of rewinding back to the start of, well, we'll say the early years contained within the book, I really resonated with what must be every parent's favorite familiar that you sort of alluded to being Sophie the giraffe. And I was like, I know exactly what that toy is. know exactly, yep, that and muslins and.

Shelly (26:56.033)
Yeah.

Shelly (27:06.332)
you have a selfie, yes.

Adam Powell (27:15.781)
trying to get the sleep routines down and all this sort of stuff. And you go into it in the book so well and it's lighthearted, but educational. It's reassuring and sort of really touches memories that are potentially, because as our children grow up and things like that, you push some memories back and it's not until someone mentions something like Sophie, the giraffe, that you're like, yes.

Shelly (27:16.007)
Yeah.

Shelly (27:25.438)
Ugh, that's the goal.

Shelly (27:43.222)
you

Adam Powell (27:46.188)
I remember this.

Shelly (27:48.544)
you know exactly who that is.

Adam Powell (27:52.632)
I think you mentioned, I think everybody, most parents around the world will be able to recognize that little giraffe.

Shelly (27:58.156)
She's iconic. literally was at every baby shower I've ever been to. That stinkin' giraffe.

Adam Powell (28:06.555)
Some may say some somewhat of a godsend.

Shelly (28:10.246)
yeah, my son had Sophie the giraffe. yeah. I mean, I think I even put it on my registry because I just like, became just like, obviously we need this. Obviously. Yeah.

Adam Powell (28:16.444)
So

Adam Powell (28:27.236)
And they were sort of moving through sort of coping with having pacifiers and on a swaddle and how to, the five S's is something that you mentioned in the book and your own interpretation of that. So what has it been like to play with...

was going to say rule books, that's kind of what we are and we aren't discussing. Guidebooks, should we say, for parenting and playing on those given concepts.

Shelly (28:59.166)
Yeah, I hope that Dr. Harvey Karp is okay if I revised his five S's a little. That one, that book, it's from the happiest baby on the block. Another very iconic parenting book, but that one we actually did read. We never really read any of the other ones, even though I had them all. But that one, it just reminded me because it's for people who aren't familiar, there's five S's

which is very kind because it makes it easier for parents to remember because, hey, alliteration. And I honestly can't remember very many of them now. Swaddling, shushing, swinging. What's the other two? I don't, yeah. But it reminded me of like how...

Adam Powell (29:48.535)
sorts of plant, it was the one you had.

Shelly (29:57.09)
I probably read an article even about like DMing and like five easy steps or just like it just reminded me of something like we would tell Dungeon Masters like, cool, like, here's how to run a great campaign. Follow, you know, the five B words of D &D or something maybe because we use so many acronyms all the time in D &D. So I just wanted to see like, well, okay, I'm familiar with this book. This actually was helpful, but

Adam Powell (30:05.403)
Hmm.

Shelly (30:23.922)
what would what would the D &D-ified version of this, what would that look like? And I obviously still did want it to be helpful to people. So I actually did a little bit of research in there about like what keywords are like things like surprise is one that is good for parents, also good for dungeon masters. But really, like the approach was always like, think like a dungeon master, think like a dungeon master, what would a dungeon master say here?

And then the discovery that S word is actually sword.

Adam Powell (31:01.539)
Yeah, it's an epiphany moment.

Shelly (31:02.334)
I mean, it was an absolute epiphany.

Adam Powell (31:05.829)
Ha ha ha ha ha.

And with this sword, thanks to your book reminding me many other things, I will no longer look at grapes as a safe fruit for myself or my son anymore.

Shelly (31:17.852)
I swear that my my son loves them. And he's always like, can I get some grapes? And then he like trots off to his room to eat them. And again, he's 11. And yet in my mind, I'm like, my God, he's going behind closed doors to eat those grapes.

Adam Powell (31:42.389)
Yeah.

Shelly (31:42.514)
He just never lose the fear never

Adam Powell (31:45.883)
So there's things like that. You've got some fantastic nods to sort of, should we say, pop culture. You mentioned a steam train with strange faces and puppies in first responder outfits. And I'm like, yeah, I've lived through these and I've sung the songs and PJ Masks, think, is another one that gets mentioned that I can probably recite from the back of my mind now.

Shelly (31:55.19)
That's my favorite.

Shelly (32:07.438)
yeah. I, I thought it's going to be in my head again. Still. That's like, that thing is, you when we're talking about like different families and the different makeup of families, what makes a family, even though they may look different, we, the, the struggles, the challenges, the, highs and the lows, they're kind of the same for everyone. Same as like

Adam Powell (32:15.205)
Sorry.

Shelly (32:34.732)
the puppies in first responder gear is, you you're in Scotland, I'm in Seattle. It's pervasive. Like we're all kind of living through the same thing. It's like this bonding that we have no matter who we are, where we come from, what we believe, what we do. There is this connective tissue between us as parents, which is also the thing that I love about D &D and telling those stories together. There is always that connective tissue, no matter

who you sit down at the table with, you're going to have these memories together. And again, like these were the kind of parallels I kept finding, like, that's kind of true for a family, like, but that's also true for the community. That's also true for the friends in the family that you surround yourself with, just like it's true with the people that you game with. It just all kept making sense, Adam. It was just, it was right there.

Adam Powell (33:33.205)
Yeah, the more I read, the more I understood it. And the way you sort of drew the parallels between an adventuring party and say, or bringing together an adventuring party and making friends is potentially a parent out trying to socialize with other parents and things like that was good, know, breaking the ice and strangers and sort of building that up and.

Shelly (33:50.903)
Yeah.

Adam Powell (34:01.209)
sort of moving forward like that and how I don't want to say common enemy, but you have put stat blocks in for stages of growth, should we say for our beloved children. and they are brilliant. So what was it like to come up with those? Cause you know, they're fully functional stat blocks.

Shelly (34:22.339)
I okay, so that was that's one of my favorite things in the book. I, I don't remember how I came up with it felt like that idea was always there to just kind of think about children like they're monsters. What's bad about that? So yes, thinking about them in their various stages, like a newborn, which

What do we know about newborns? They're loud. They don't really do much, except they're helpless. But they're just the most adorable little bag of goo you could ever, you know, just want to snuggle and cuddle. So they created for them the shrieking enchanter because of their very loud cries, but also how can you resist? You cannot. They're like little baby sirens.

Toddling terrors, I believe was another one. That's, you know, again, the similarities were just, it was just very easy to stat these little monsters straight up and think about like, what are they immune to? What are their resistance? How can you, like, how can you sort of control them? I loved coming up with their attacks, like, obviously a Toddling Terror Bites. Like, that's just...

Remember that phase, Adam? I'm sure you do. The bitey-bitey. and the toddling terrors also. Grabby-grabby. That was another one of their attacks. Obviously toddlers are very grabby. Again, I'm telling, like it almost just wrote itself. It was so fun.

Adam Powell (35:49.179)
Yeah.

Adam Powell (36:05.891)
It's so clever. really is. there was a part in, or sorry, there was not. There is a part in the book where you speak about sort of the, how do we put this, nonviolent protests of children turning to sort of goo on the floor and becoming almost boneless. And it tweaked a memory of mine when we spoke last about you being Shelly goo.

Shelly (36:25.216)
The boneless.

Shelly (36:34.442)
Yes!

Adam Powell (36:35.48)
And I was like, was that intentional or was that just because I've been through the bag of spuds sort of boneless challenge and I wasn't sure if Shelley goo and this were word subconsciously linked somehow.

Shelly (36:46.188)
Yep.

Shelly (36:51.198)
It must be subconscious. It must be.

Adam Powell (36:55.045)
So, and you mentioned, I think one of the attacks is slashing and you need baby nail clippers and you have a lot of useful and practical advice of how to prepare yourself as parents, which sort of falls in alongside how to prepare yourself as an adventuring party. And I loved that parallel as well.

Shelly (37:03.37)
Yes.

Shelly (37:16.3)
Thank you. Yes, the starting equipment. I mean, really, with people who are having a baby, you do believe, like, God, you need like truckloads of stuff. And you end up using like two or three things. Like, you don't even need it all. really, new parents who are listening.

Adam Powell (37:20.091)
Thank you.

Shelly (37:38.376)
Read that if you read nothing else, just read that section. There's really only a few things you need. But yes, baby nail clippers, get those.

Adam Powell (37:46.981)
Yeah, maybe not as much cotton wool as you need. It was a big take away from the book as well. And one of the baby monsters, I'm sort of I'm dancing around the book and we can go into the stat and how they're used and things like that shortly, but there's two things that have sort of come to mind right now. And one was,

Shelly (37:49.843)
No.

Adam Powell (38:13.829)
part of the sort of the baby monsters. One of the monsters was akin to an obelix where parents empty promises and things like that could be retained and almost weaponized. And I was like, I think I've probably been guilty of that a couple of times. it's identifying our effect on our children and our children's effect on our lives and that balance. balancing these challenges, nice.

Shelly (38:30.345)
Absolutely.

Adam Powell (38:43.033)
segue into challenge ratings, suppose. What was it like to sort of look at that side of the challenge to parenting and then the challenge of providing encounters as or working through encounters as a Dungeon Master?

Shelly (38:45.056)
Uh-huh.

Shelly (39:03.318)
so with regards to challenges, here's a challenge. I did not want the book to just read like, well, now you've done it. And now this is just going to suck for the rest of your life. Wow. Like I really want the joy of parenting to also come through. There is, there are challenges. Like that's just, there's challenges.

Adam Powell (39:24.379)
Hmm.

Shelly (39:29.452)
for people who don't have kids. Like that's just how it is. Life is challenging. But really what I just wanted to impart the most was there's also really great parts of this. And I think that's true to a lesser degree for Dungeon Masters. I mean, it's not like actually someone's life you're kind of in charge of as a DM, but.

There is, DMs put so much into planning a game and to managing a campaign and just being there for the players. There's a lot that they do. And there's also, if you talk to a dungeon master about why they do it, they might say, my gosh, it's so much work and I have to do this and I have to do that. Some of them actually don't even plan that much at all and they're amazing DMs, but a lot of them do. And you ask why they do it? I'll say because, because I love it.

because of the stories that we tell, because of the memories we're making, because I love the joy that it brings to my players. I love to be able to surprise people, to take them to places they never thought possible, to create worlds in which people can explore, where people can feel safe, where people can make amazing discoveries about themselves and each other. That's why you do it. And really,

That's also true, surprise, of parenting. There's so much of what drives a dungeon master that also is driving being a parent. And I never wanted to lose sight of that in the book. I didn't want to be like, my god, babies, they suck. Am I right? Come on. It's really like, yeah, it's hard. But this is an adventure that you're on.

And this, you formed this adventuring party and really just viewing the world through a first level characters eyes. It's like, okay, I kind of see why you're acting the way you are. like, like, you know, like really at any stage for a kid, they kind of act like first level characters, but it's really just because like, imagine like stepping into this world and just discovering the real world the same way you would.

Shelly (41:53.492)
as you're stepping into this fantasy world that someone has created for you. So I guess, and now I kind of can't remember your question, but I just heard the word challenges. But really.

Adam Powell (42:04.655)
I mean, that pretty much covers it in many respects. Within the book, you do lay out some challenge ratings about and some scores and XP, getting the child ready and turning up to places on time and all that sort of fun stuff and awarding XP for achieving the parenting side of the DM skills, which I thought was very clever.

Shelly (42:14.844)
yes!

Right, right, Yes.

Shelly (42:26.208)
Yes. Hosting sleepovers. Not. Yep. Yep.

Adam Powell (42:33.659)
So that must have been fun to sort of play with the conventions of challenge ratings and encounter in construction.

Shelly (42:38.337)
Yes.

Shelly (42:43.52)
Yeah, absolutely. Thinking back to all of those, those kind of big milestone moments and, you know, sneaking out of the baby's room without waking them up. Like, norovirus going around the daycare and narrowly avoiding it, those kinds of things. Yes. Hosting sleepovers. Like there's, there's still a lot of things that happen with my son being

Adam Powell (43:01.467)
Hmm.

Shelly (43:12.156)
tween that I'm like hmm there's another good encounter there we could have written about that one.

Adam Powell (43:20.121)
And as I keep saying, it's so well written. And the way you've used the attributes and separated down attributes and skills and how that sort of plays into both personality and literal skills, things like removing keys so said children don't swallow them and all this sort of good stuff. There's so many fantastic sort of that's, yeah, exactly.

Shelly (43:39.813)
yes.

up those scrapes real tiny

Yes, literally taking a baby's nose. Please don't do it literally, but yeah.

Adam Powell (43:51.067)
Yeah.

Adam Powell (43:57.055)
And it's, there's so many good things in here. I do love the nods to the, and I hope you don't mind me saying, cause you're still young, but the young Shelley going out cassette tapes, Brian Adams, I feel like Kevin Bacon and I have to cut loose and all that. And I was like, I know these references. I'm enjoying not reliving because

Shelly (44:07.655)
Shelly (44:11.769)
yeah, wow, you really picked up on all the little nuggets. I love it.

Shelly (44:21.981)
Yes!

Adam Powell (44:26.469)
We had separate experiences, but having had similar experiences with the Walkman or CD players and all that sort of good stuff as we grew a bit older and how our parents parent in potentially as informed hours, as you mentioned earlier, and what sort of leash we were given to what we give our children and all that sort of good stuff, I found very entertaining and very informative.

Shelly (44:56.642)
Well, I'm glad you got those references. Thank you.

Adam Powell (44:56.963)
And also, I'm so thankful you put them in there because I enjoyed that immensely. there's a bit that takes a slightly more serious tone. Forgive me if I've misremembered the title of the subsection, do I have a weird child or is my child weird? And it's...

Shelly (45:22.198)
yes.

Adam Powell (45:24.087)
It's sort of saying, and I'm paraphrasing, it's sort of, paraphrase it completely different quote, within it, comparison is the thief of joy. And you explain that we need to enjoy our own experiences with our own children and not lose what's good in our lives by comparing it to what we perceive is good in others.

Shelly (45:46.666)
Yes, also true in D &D, which I, because I think I wrote about it in this as well, but I've compared myself to like other, we have the, there's two groups that have the same dungeon master. And I hear him talk about the other group and like, I guess they're just better than we are. I guess they're just smarter. I guess they're just more strategic because they're like so much further on in the, we're playing the same adventure.

Adam Powell (45:49.467)
Yeah.

Adam Powell (45:55.976)
school groups.

Adam Powell (46:16.123)
Hmm.

Shelly (46:16.58)
Well, come to find out, he talks about us too. And to that group, and they're just like, it sounds like they're just way more fun than you are. They're so much more creative. Like, you just don't know. But as parents, we are always comparing our kids to other kids or to our families, to other families. And it's just.

Adam Powell (46:26.299)
You

you

Shelly (46:40.594)
Nobody's perfect. Everybody's got something going on. And they're looking at you and thinking, wow, Adam's really got it together. Look at that. Look at how great his son is. Look at how fun they are. And you're just, who knows?

Adam Powell (46:58.351)
That's it. It is.

Adam Powell (47:06.395)
It is the parallels which you've drawn so perfectly between the fantasy world and what I hope is the real world we're currently living in. But we'll see as time moves forward, I suppose. with respect to yourself, Shelley, if you don't mind me asking, what do you think your parenting class is with respect to D &D? What skill are you proficient in as it sort of lays out in the book?

Shelly (47:37.202)
I think my parenting... gosh I'm gonna revisit this because I want to get this right. hang on. Parenting... where is that section?

Adam Powell (47:46.243)
Yeah, of course.

Shelly (47:56.532)
I think I might be, I think I'm a wizard. But I always think I'm, okay, good, thank you. What did I say? I do think I'm a wizard. And I think the skill, I'm gonna say that the skill that I am definitely honing more is charisma. As kids get older and they, you know.

Adam Powell (48:01.979)
You do mention being a wizard to be fair.

Shelly (48:24.448)
Maybe don't want to spend as much time with their moms. I get that. I am really like, really trying to be to like work on the charm skill and just make sure that our house is still the house people want to hang out at. I'm still the mom that gets all the hot gossip from the kids and like that I'm just still someone that they want to talk to. That's, that's who my mom was. That's who I want to be. But I can tell like we're getting into some.

difficult territory now or maybe like you don't want your mom hanging around that much. Hard for me to believe, I know, but I've just seen glimmers of it and mostly with his other friends and their moms, but it's coming, I know. So really the charisma, I have to like just really keep that ability sharp.

Adam Powell (49:16.443)
Yeah.

Adam Powell (49:22.951)
Nice, nice. And with sort of all these abilities we've mentioned and the parallels that we've drawn, if you could offer maybe one or two sort of pieces out the book or something off the top of your, off the top of the mind as a sort of TTRPG D &D inspired piece of general parenting advice, you can be

truly specific if you want to narrow it down. But what would be your go-to D &D inspired parenting advice for others who are sort of coming into this world before they get the chance to read the book fully and enjoy the full breadth of his content?

Shelly (50:07.796)
It's never too late. It's never too late for anyone to heed this advice. But the most impactful, important thing I've learned from Dungeon Masters is you don't have to know everything. You can't prepare for it because first of all, you don't know.

you're preparing for and you could be preparing for things that will never happen but also that's that's kind of the fun of it not knowing what you're getting where you're going what you're doing there's basic things obviously that you should prepare for like you you will have to like know how to change a diaper and install a car seat the safety things absolutely prepare for but the my first and yeah i think it was my first dming experience

was a disaster because I, I, I tried to prep for everything and I wanted people to stick. This is the story. Like, why are they not following the story? Why are they asking to talk to this NPC that's I don't know anything about. You just make it up. Just make it up. Just go with it. Just roll with it. Don't fear it. Just don't, you don't have to know every single rule. You don't.

It's just, life's going to happen whether or not you're prepared for it or not. DMs are so good at improv, at rolling with the punches and just embracing the element of surprise. That's why we love D &D. I don't want to know what's behind that door. I want to experience it for myself. So just really taking, trying to take that approach. It's hard for me. I am a control freak.

but I am trying and I've gotten better and I've just gotten a lot just looser, just looking at the world like this is an adventure and we've leveled up and we've got the skills and we can do it.

Adam Powell (52:13.339)
Amazing, amazing. And thank you. for those listening, if you want more magic pearls of wisdom, I tried to be clever there, and want to hear more from the Dungeon Mother, who I have now anointed, then How to Dungeon Master Parenting, a guidebook is available from November the 12th, which is a week away from time of call. So please scroll down, follow those links.

Shelly (52:25.068)
Dungeon Mother, I love it.

Adam Powell (52:42.495)
support Shelley and purchase the book. I will be getting my hands on a physical copy as we've already spoken about. But speaking of new releases and I hope you don't mind me shifting focus just ever so slightly to the D &D side of the D &D related content, the revised and expanded ruleset. You must be very excited for that going out to players and Dungeon Masters very recently and all the progress that has been made within

D &D to move the game forward through this revision and expansion. So what's that been like from a professional standpoint and a personal standpoint, if you don't mind me asking.

Shelly (53:22.55)
Well, first I would like you to know that I wrote this book before I saw any rules revision. So if anyone's reading both the New Players Handbook and How to Dungeon Master Parenting and being like, that's not true. It was true. It was true at one point. And then they rewrote everything. But it has been amazing, exciting just to see how hard this team has worked.

how well received these revised rule books have been. It's been 10 years since fifth edition launched. 10 years since any real meaningful update to the player's handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide or Monster Manual. They're great books, the 2014 versions, but we have 10 years of feedback from players. And so much has changed in that time. And fifth edition has been D &D's most accessible.

edition ever. D &D is arguably the most popular edition ever. I think the rules expansions have done a really great job of keeping the things that players love about D &D and just adding more of that and just really giving people what they've been asking for. The artwork in these books is amazing. There's more artwork than ever before.

They also do a really good job of introducing how to play D &D, which is something we didn't really do before. The player's handbook has now like, hey, this is what D &D is. This is what role playing is. This is how you create a character. This is what all of the different types of character classes and species are. Creating a character from the actual player's handbook is so much easier. I can do it.

I usually just use the Character Builder because I would get tripped up too much in things. It's much more streamlined. The Dungeon Master's Guide though is incredible in that there's really good advice and guidance for Dungeon Masters, for new Dungeon Masters. The 2014 version was kind of assumed that you already knew how to be a Dungeon Master.

Shelly (55:39.846)
And this book doesn't. This book is actually a great, from the ground floor up guide to being a dungeon master and giving people really good advice, like real world advice, like, hey, my players are not getting along. Like, how do I manage conflict at the table? Advice like that. And again, 10 years of feedback.

Adam Powell (00:02.017)
So you could almost read these three books together and sort of create a fantastic adventure out of them and take experiences from the gaming table to the dinner table and all that sort of stuff, which is fantastic.

Shelly (00:18.2)
Yes.

Adam Powell (00:22.109)
as we've mentioned, sort of growing older and moving on, mostly related to our children, but someone very prevalent to the 2014 edition D &D in general has moved on relatively recently. What was it like to see Chris Perkins sort of take his leave, if that's a fair expression?

Shelly (00:44.888)
He has not left. He is still very much part of D &D. He took a new role. So he's, yes, and he made a comment that a lot of people thought, my, Chris Perkins left? He just, he's on a different role. He's, I think he's a creative director. So like, he's the work that he typically does in...

Adam Powell (00:54.273)
Shelly (01:12.418)
publishing a D &D book. He won't be doing anymore, but he's very involved in all three of the rule books. That being said, I, Chris has to just always stay with D &D forever and ever. I, I just don't know. He, he has to. We will turn him into a lich and we will keep him forever.

Adam Powell (01:33.461)
that is scary and amazing at the same time. I think so. It's very on brand and I love it.

Shelly (01:36.894)
But appropriate, right? He may already be a lich. I don't know. He's one of my favorite people. yeah, happy to report that he is still very much on the D &D team just in a different role.

Adam Powell (01:51.873)
amazing. That fills me was I have obviously sort of purchased the books and played the game and and sort of his interviews and articles and all the things that get released from him and involving other members of the team, including yourself, have always been very useful as me as a DM. And now with your book, I can draw parallels to parenting. So the Russ Monster thing was

Shelly (02:19.754)
Yes.

Adam Powell (02:21.781)
Boulet and boule was another one in your book that I don't know if I can do the French accent well enough to be a boule. So I would probably just call it a boulette. But yeah.

Shelly (02:25.4)
Right, so which is it?

Shelly (02:33.226)
Boulay. Yeah, I think that's what most people do.

Yeah, I should also say there's an audiobook version that I narrate if, if audiobooks are more your thing. I obviously did not anticipate narrating an audiobook because I wouldn't have put in a lot of the words that I put in the very hard to pronounce D &D words that I would have made that someone else's problem. But yeah, that was fun too.

Adam Powell (03:00.02)
You

Adam Powell (03:07.105)
Well, I will again make sure there are links. Well, why don't you, if you wouldn't mind, remind us where we can support you and where we can pick up this book from the 12th of November, please, Shelley.

Shelly (03:20.47)
Yes. Well, you can stop by your local independent bookstore or go online to bookshop.org. You can go to your favorite mass market online retailer.

They will have, I know for sure they have the book, but Barnes & Noble has it, Amazon has it. There are some of your, maybe your local game store might even have it. It does kind of cross over into D &D territory there. There is also a online bookstore called Tertulia, T-E-R-T-U-L-I-A. And I mentioned them because if you pre-order the book before November 12th, so I don't know how many.

days you'll have to do that, but you will get 25 % off the order with code word Quest. How appropriate, right? Yes, they're a new co-op bookstore. So check them out as well.

Adam Powell (04:12.139)
Quest. I love it.

Adam Powell (04:19.773)
Well thank you and your good self on social medias and the world wide web as it exists.

Shelly (04:27.542)
Yes, mostly on Instagram at ShellyMoo or you can subscribe to my newsletter at Substack, shelleymazzanoble.substack.com.

Adam Powell (04:39.943)
I will make sure those links are down in description below. scroll down, follow those links, support Shelly, support. it's a pleasure. Support Shelly, support your friendly local gaming store if they do start the book and support each other, especially as a parent union as we have become. Shelly, thank you so much. It's always a pleasure to get to speak to you and I love.

Shelly (04:42.488)
Thanks.

Shelly (04:57.91)
Yes. Yes, Adam.

Shelly (05:06.699)
It's my pleasure.

Adam Powell (05:07.571)
I truly hope you keep writing these books because I'd to get you back on again.

Shelly (05:10.784)
Me too. I'm going to get cracking on the next one.

Adam Powell (05:14.013)
I look forward to it. Well, I will give you time to sort of work out the content and the premise and the layout and all those important book things. And we will definitely, definitely speak again soon. So thank you so much for joining me today.

Shelly (05:28.106)
I hope so. Thank you. This was so great.

Adam Powell (05:33.067)
Thank you so much, Shelly.

Shelly (05:34.259)
Adam, you're the best.