# Math is Figure-Out-Able!

Math teacher educator Pam Harris and her cohost Kim Montague answer the question: If not algorithms, then what? Join them for ~15-30 minutes every Tuesday as they cast their vision for mathematics education and give actionable items to help teachers teach math that is Figure-Out-Able. See www.MathisFigureOutAble.com for more great resources!

## Math is Figure-Out-Able!

# Ep 209: Stick and Split

Developing multiplicative reasoning, let alone learning multiplication facts, has never been more fun. In this episode Pam and Kim discuss Stick and Split, a simple digital game your students or own kids can explore to learn multiplication in a whole new way.

Talking Points:

- We don't recommend products lightly - Stick and Split is amazing!
- Taking the product approach - How is that different?
- Noticing the commutative property
- Using common factors as tools
- What do the levels look like?

Check out our social media

Twitter: @PWHarris

Instagram: Pam Harris_math

Facebook: Pam Harris, author, mathematics education

Linkedin: Pam Harris Consulting LLC

**Pam **00:01

Hey, fellow mathers! Welcome to the podcast where Math is Figure-Out-Able. I'm Pam Harris, a former mimicker turned Mather.

**Kim **00:10

And I'm Kim Montague, a reasoner, who now knows how to share her thinking with others. At Math is Figure-Out-Able, we are on a mission to improve math teaching.

**Pam **00:18

We know that algorithms are amazing historic achievements, but they are not good teaching tools because mimicking step by step procedures can actually trap students into using less sophisticated reasoning than the problems are intended to develop.

**Kim **00:33

In this podcast, we help you teach mathing, building relationships with your students, and grappling with mathematical relationships.

**Pam **00:41

We invite you to join us to make math more figure-out-auble. Hey, Kim.

**Kim **00:46

Hi.

**Pam **00:47

Hey.

**Kim **00:49

I'm loving what we have planned.

**Pam **00:52

This is fun, right?

**Kim **00:53

I know (unclear).

**Pam **00:53

Today's going to be fun.

**Kim **00:54

Yeah. So, one of the most popular series that we've done on the podcast, at all maybe, is about multiplication facts. We did a... I think it was like a five part series quite a while ago. And probably because it's a big ask for a lot of people, spans quite a few grade ranges, and lots of people want to know more about it. So, I'm excited about today and what we get to share. And, you know, I was actually googling a little bit, and I ran across a blog article by Tad Watanabe who (unclear)... Yeah, yeah, yeah. He has really thoughtful blogs. And I knew that we were going to talk today about Stick and Split. And his blog was all the way back from 22, 2022. And he talks about an article that he read, and he said in his blog, "I believe Pam Harris once tweeted about the app, but I really didn't think much of it at that point. I just don't pay too much attention to computer games and apps that are often promoted to somehow magically support students learning. I should have paid more attention since it was Pam who is recommending it. And then he talks about how he did go to the link. I agree Tad. I spend almost no time putting a lot of attention towards computer games and apps. And then when somebody says, "No, really. It's great. You know, I'll look at it, and more often than not I'm super disappointed. But we are excited about Stick and Split. So, Pam, why don't you start us off because you found Stick and Split or it found you somehow. How did you (unclear).

**Pam **01:27

We like Tad. (unclear) Well, first of all, thanks, Tad for saying that about if I recommended it. And I actually tried to make that real. Like, I don't recommend stuff unless It's actually good.

**Kim **02:31

Yeah.

**Pam **02:32

You know, I am trying to think. I think the very first time I met David Tim, I think he poked me on Twitter. I'm not actually sure. I now we got on a Zoom. We chatted a little bit. He gave me a login. I checked it out. I was instantly interested. It was different than anything I had seen before. It wasn't like... It's just not like any other kind of app I'd ever seen.

**Kim **02:58

Yeah.

**Pam **02:59

And then at least a year later, maybe even a year and a half. I was in two... I'll stop trying to guess. I had the opportunity to present a conference at Oxford. And that was an amazing experience. Had a really good time. And he met me for lunch. Well, and actually, I met a group of really wonderful educators. We had a nice chat for a good hour, mathematics teacher educators. And then David took my husband and me to dinner. And we just had a delightful chat. He is a parent who has been trying to create. He also codes, and he's a technology guy. And he's been trying to create an app for his kids to help them get better at multiplication facts. And he's been doing it for years. And it wasn't until COVID hit where he kind of had some time, where he was like, "I'm going to dive in and try it with my youngest. So, with my youngest, let's see." He had some older kids he had tried before and just really hadn't ever found anything. And he decided to take a different approach than he ever had before. And instead of taking what he called, I think something like a factor approach, which I think is what most of us do, he decided to take a product approach. So, let me describe that just a little bit. He said that typically what we do is we say, "Alright, everybody go learn your twos. Then learn your threes. Then your new fours. Learn your fives. Learn your sixes. Like, practice your sevens." And so that's kind of a factor approach. So, you know like, 7 times this, 7 times that, and kids kind of practice those. I remember my daughter practiced her sevens, then we would go and take a test at the end of the week, and if she got enough of them in a certain amount of time. I'm not advocating this, by the way. If she got enough of them in a certain amount time, then she got the scoop on her sundae or the toppings or whatever. Blah, blah, blah. So typically, we tend to approach multiplication facts by sort of practicing the factor. Well, he said, "What makes up a product?" And that's a little weird, so maybe we'll kind of talk about what the game looks like a little bit, then we'll kind of come back to this idea of having a product approach. Instead of thinking about like the sevens, he said, "Let's think about like 12. What makes up 12? How can you think of all of the factor pairs that make up 12?" And he does it in a really visual, spatial kind of way, and in a fun game, like kind of way. And he's very thoughtful about how he does it. And I think I've watched several kids play this. I've played it. And I watch kids just dive in and get kind of intrigued. And I think it does a really nice job. So, let me just start off, if you start playing the game. So, again, it's called Stick and Split. Because you can either stick numbers together or you can split them up. But importantly, you can only stick the same number together. So, like if you have a bunch of twos on the screen, you can stick those together, but you can't stick a 2 with a 3, or a 2 with a 5 to make 7. You'd have to stick a bunch of twos together. So, with twos, you can't make 7 because you can't stick twos together to make 7. Or you could split up a number. So, if you had 8 on the screen. And they're all shaped like bars. So, it kind of almost looks like Tetris, where there's these horizontal bars on the screen, and they are proportional to each other. So, a 2 is half the size of 4, and a 5 is is bigger than a 4 but smaller than a 6. You know like, so there's these sort of horizontal bars on the screen. And so, let's say you have a 6 on the screen, you could split. If you click on the 6, the bar that has a six on it. If you click on that, you could split it into two 3s or you split it into three 2s. And you don't really know that when you click on the 6, it just gives you a stick. Yeah, you have the option to stick it with something. You'd have to click another thing to stick it together. Or the split then just gives you where you can split it up into one way or another way. And it gives you both options. But it doesn't really tell you how. You just kind of like a picture of... In fact, I'd have to actually pull up the 6 to see what the picture looks like. I don't have that up in front of me. But you have two options. You can click on either the split it into three 2s or two 3s. Anyway, that's probably more than you kind of want to know. Let's get at what the game looks like. So, when you very first start playing, the very first level is one of the only times you're ever going to see a 1. And so, the very first level, Kim, if you started playing. And I don't know if you can hear it because the sound effects are on. I'm playing it on my phone right now. It says 4. So, you're trying to make a 4. And there's a whole bunch of bars, and they all say 1 on them. And so, you can literally drag your finger across the 1s until you put four 1s together, and you stick those, and they line up next to each other, and form, and they go all the way across the screen. Once the ones line up to each other, then they make the longer 4. And so, it's 4 times as long. And now, you have still a whole bunch of 1s. But now you have one 4. And then you can continue to stick those together. And I just stuck 4 more. And then you continue to stick them all together until you've made fours. The bar of 1, doesn't show up very much more after this. I think it's a couple more times it shows up. But after this, it's much now you're going to have like twos. So, for example, the second level, if I were to go. I'm skipping now. To create fours has ones and twos. So, you can stick four 1s together. You click on the four 1s. You can stick two 2s together. And you do that, and you make fours. When you're in this level of making fours, there's also a diamond. And the diamond, if I click on it, is like... That's like you want to be special. So, it says "Win a diamond. Complete this level in 6 moves or less." So, you have a whole bunch of ones and twos. So, one way that you could do that is you could put the ones together to make twos, and then the twos together to make the 4. Because the total is 4. But then it might take you more than those 6 moves, and then you wouldn't get the diamond. So, you're trying to be kind of like efficient. So, I'm sitting on this make a 4, Kim, and a message just appeared. And it says, "Make a move for you?" So, it's kind of like the hint. So, if you wait too long. Or I guess not too long, but long enough. If you pause long enough, then it will say, "Hey, do you want me to make a move for you?" And then it will literally kind of light up the little bars to kind of give you a suggestion of how you can move from there. I'm not going to have it do that for me because I'm going to move on to a more fun level. So, I'm going to all levels. I'm kind of skipping ahead. So, this is interesting. You could actually... Oh, let me come back to that. Kim, remind me later. I want to talk about kind of how the levels are situated. So, first of all, you make fours. Then the next set of games is you make 6. So, when you look at 6, to make 6, the very first level just has a bunch of twos. So, Kim, I know this is lame, but what would you do with twos to make 6?

**Kim **09:50

Put three 2s together.

**Pam **09:52

Duh. Okay, so you put a bunch of twos together. You put three 2s together a bunch of times, and you get 6. The very next level has a bunch of threes. So, how many threes would you put together to make 6?

**Kim **10:05

Two.

**Pam **10:06

Right. So, thank you for playing along. I have seen a little four-year-old. I was looking over his shoulder while he was playing this. And he goes, "Huh. It was three 2s made 6. And now, two 3s made 6." And then he kept playing. Like, he just like said it out loud. I don't know if he said it quite that, you know, expertly. But he like noted that. It was sort of interesting. Then the next level, there's twos and threes. There's a diamond on that level that says try to do it in whatever few is possible. Then the next level. Remember, we're still making 6. So, we're making 6. The next one says... It just has a bunch of fours, Kim. There's fours. So, I watched this kid try to put two 4s together. And if you try to stick two 4s together... I'm on that level, and I just dragged it over. The two 4s are blinking, and I hit... Oops, I meant to hit... I hit Stick, and it says, "That's more than 6." So, it won't let me put two 4s together. It just says, "That's more than 6." So, what can I do? Like, there's these fours, and I'm supposed to make 6. So, the only option available to me at this point is to take one of those fours and split it. So, if I take one of those fours and split it. That's the only option available. I think it's the only option available. And I split it, now it shows me that I can split it in half. Like the little thing comes up, and you can... And so when I click that, now I can make a bunch of twos. I didn't even realize until I was looking over this four-year-old's shoulder that I can select multiple of those fours and hit Split, and it will split them all into twos. So, I can do it really fast and split all the twos. And then I can put those twos together to make 6. Does that make sense?

**Kim **11:53

Yeah. Is there... For whatever reason, I wrote down four 4s. And there...

**Pam **11:58

Oh, there was a lot more fours.

**Kim **11:59

Are there the number of fours that are equivalent to however many sixes you want to make? Like, is it leading in any way about? Like, you talked about it being equivalent. I can't see what you're seeing. But does it just give you a ton of fours like on the on the screen, and you just do what you want with a whole bunch of fours? Or is it across horizontally the same length as anything else?

**Pam **12:23

Ooh, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. The fours right now, if I split the fours into twos, and I put three 2s together, those three 2s fit the total length of the six.

**Kim **12:38

Ah, okay.

**Pam **12:38

Which is taking the total width of the screen.

**Kim **12:41

Yeah, that's what I was wondering. It's been so long since (unclear).

**Pam **12:44

So, the total is, at least that I can see, is the length of the screen. And so you're trying to put things together to make that width. I say length and width at the same time. The total is the width of the screen, and so you're trying to put those. So, like right now, I have three 2s. And if I stick those three 2s together, the three 2s right now are are making the total width of the screen. And as soon as I stick them together. I just stuck them together. Then it's a whole 6. Now they turned into... There are a bunch of yellow twos, and they just turned into one pink 6 that was the same length of all those three 2s stuck together. Yeah.

**Kim **12:44

Yeah.

**Pam **13:00

And then when you were asking how many. I can't see any more, because I've already split a bunch of them and stuff. But there were a whole bunch of fours and one 2. And I'm assuming that that one 2 was necessary to complete all of them together, so that at the end of it, I just have a bunch of sixes.

**Kim **13:36

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. If there's some sort of equivalence represented on the screen, so that you're not left with some or looking for some amount that's not there.

**Pam **13:49

Yeah. So, the first time I was looking at this. I thought, "Eh, it's fine. You know, you stick these things together." And it hadn't really occurred to me the commutative property idea where you can put three 2s together and then two 3s together, and a kid can start to notice that. And I've watched kids notice that over time. It's amazing to watch them go... Like, I literally heard the kid go, "Oh! To make 12, you can do two 6s! But you can also do six 2s! Huh. It did it again!" Like, just really cool kind of commutative property thing coming out. But then I also, when I hit this level where it was try to make sixes with fours, I was like, "How do you do that?" And it literally took me as an adult a minute to go like, "What am I going to do with these fours to make a 6? You can't put fours together to make a 6? Oh, you have to split the 4 into something that then you can create a 6 out of."

**Kim **14:37

Yeah.

**Pam **14:38

I thought that was really cool. Anyway, so then they have these diamonds that I also think is cool. So, Kim, one of the things I wanted to mention I said a minute ago was the levels. I think you can even as an older student, step back and actually look at the levels. So, for example, the first thing that you try to do is make 4. I mean, you do that in a couple of ways. The second thing you try to do is make 6. And there are five levels to make 6. The next thing you do is make 8. When you're making 8, guess what the first thing is? First thing is a bunch of fours. Okay, so you put two 4s together to make 8. Duh. Guess what the next level is? A bunch of twos. So, again, you get that commutative property thing happening. I can stick two 4s togethe, but I can also stick four 2s together. And I start hearing kids say things like, "Huh. Did you know 8 is made up of four 2s? Did you know eight is made up of two 4s?" Like, they start thinking about... They start taking a product approach. What is 8 made up of in terms of factors? And I think that's really cool. In that 8 level, you start with fours, then twos, like I just said. Then you have twos and fours. Then the next one is sixes. So, Kim, kind of curious. If you just saw sixes, and you're going to try to make 8. I'm looking at it right now. I'll tell you there are 1, 2, 3, 4. 5... There's six 6s and one 4. You don't have to finish the level, but what would you start off with if you just had some sixes, but you have to figure out how to make 8.

**Kim **14:47

I'd break up the sixes into twos, and then put four 2s together to make 8.

**Pam **16:07

Bam. And that's fantastic. I think that's cool that kids think about that. The next level has twos, fours, and sixes. So, similarly, you'd break up the sixes, and then put those together. And then the last one has twos and threes.

**Kim **16:24

Hmm. Okay.

**Pam **16:25

Any ideas what you would do twos and threes to make 8?

**Kim **16:28

I'd put some threes together to make sixes, and then break those sixes into twos.

**Pam **16:34

So, you're making eight but you're also thinking about multiples of 3, and then factors of 6, to then think about...

**Kim **16:46

All to get to 8.

**Pam **16:47

All to get to 8.

**Kim **16:48

Yeah.

**Pam **16:48

So, kind of that that product approach for 8. Alright, so the levels so far have been 4, make 4, make 6, make 8. Why did we skip some? How come we didn't make 5?

**Kim **17:01

Because it's a prime number.

**Pam **17:03

Bam, right? So, we didn't (unclear) make 5. We didn't make 7. So, after 8, what's the next one you think we're going to make.

**Kim **17:10

10.

**Pam **17:11

We're actually going to make 9.

**Kim **17:13

Oh. Haha. (unclear). That's awesome.

**Pam **17:20

So, we are going to make 9. We're going to make 9 from threes. We're going to make 9 from sixes. So, we're going to have to split the sixes up. But that's not too hard, right? But then we're also going to make 9 from twos and threes.

**Kim **17:25

Yeah, mmhm. Okay.

**Pam **17:33

So what are your thoughts about making 9 from twos and threes?

**Kim **17:36

Can I make twos become a 6, and then break the sixes into threes?

**Pam **17:41

Right? Isn't that cool? I think it's cool. I don't know. I don't know how cool you think it is. I think it's cool. Okay, so the next one to 10. And then the next one's 12. Now, the 12 level has the most. The make 12 has the most levels in it.

**Kim **17:53

Yeah. which coincides with the fact that 12 has... Do you know what I was going to say (unclear).

**Pam **17:55

A lot of factor pairs. Yeah, I do. I do, yeah.

**Kim **18:04

And so, then I went like, "Oh, gosh. What's the 24 level? And the 36 level? And, you know, some of those. (unclear). Ooh, nice, right? Right? Yeah. Yeah. So, 12 has a lot. 14 just has a couple. 14 has... You can make 14 from sevens. I should have had everybody guess. "Guess what you could do for 14." So, the first thing it does is make from sevens. So, it's just two 7s, right? You just put two 7s together. What's the next level then? Do you mind if I (unclear)? After 14?

**Pam **18:15

So, making 14, the first thing you do is create it from 7s.

**Kim **18:19

Okay.

**Pam **18:19

What would be the next way you would make 14 Just if you were (unclear)?

**Kim **18:24

Twos (unclear).

**Pam **18:25

Yeah, so put seven 2s together. Then you're going to make 14 from sixes.

**Kim **18:33

I have to write that down. 14 from sixes. Okay. You have to get to twos to get back to fourteens.

**Pam **18:50

So, because 6 you can get to 2.

**Kim **18:53

Which is really brilliant for common factors.

**Pam **18:57

What do you mean?

**Kim **18:58

Like you're thinking about common factors from 14 and 6.

**Pam **19:02

Ah.

**Kim **19:03

Right? To know that 14 is 2 and 7, 2 times 7. And then 2 times 3 is 6.

**Pam **19:11

Yeah, nicely said. So, a lot of teachers of older students will say kids need to have their multiplication facts.

**Kim **19:17

They got to make a list. They got a circle them.

**Both Pam and Kim **19:19

Yeah.

**Pam **19:21

And they'll say the kids have to have their multiplication facts memorized, so that they can recognize the multiples. Or this is an example of how we can actually build the idea of thinking about common factors. And here's something else that David told me when he and I were talking in person. He's very clear that he is starting from the... Like, he started from 4. So, we're thinking about all the ways to make 4, all the ways to make 6, all ways to make 14, all the ways to make 15. Notice, how we're focusing on this product approach with small products.

**Kim **19:53

Yeah.

**Pam **19:54

He said if we take a factor approach, which traditionally I think almost everybody has. We're doing 2 times 9 immediately. Like, we're in the twos. You know the doubles, whatever. And we're already at 18. Boom. Or 3, we're talking about 3 times 9, 3 times 8. We're into 24 and 27. As soon as we get to 4, now we're into 38... 38. I'm trying to do too many at once. 4 times 8, 32. And we're doing 36. Like, we're instantly in these big numbers, even though we're in small factors. But his approach really gets you thinking about these small products well. Like, really breaking up 12 a lot, messing around with 12 in lots of different ways before you ever move to messing around with 14, before you ever move on to messing around with 15. So, I think that's also really intriguing that we get kids really good at these small products. And we're already thinking about some intense complex ideas, like you just said common factors, before the numbers get too big.

**Kim **20:59

Yeah.

**Pam **21:00

I think it's really interesting. Yeah, nice, nice. So, one thing that I'll just mention is for every one of these makes. So, like if I look at make 24, the very first move is the largest factor pair. So, from 24, you're going to get a bunch of twelves. And then the next move, you're going to get a bunch of... Well, that's interesting. This is from 12. There's two from 12.

**Kim **21:01

Well, and you know a lot of people say kids need to know their multiplication facts as they get older. And I would actually argue that one of the things they really need to know is less of the product of a multiplication facts, but they need to know... Like, they're given the product and need to know factors much more often as they get older. And there's a distinction between the two, and I think he's hitting that with this game of taking a product approach. Because, you know, when you're factoring stuff in middle school and high school, you know, they're not asking what's 7 times 8, they're asking what is 56 made of? 6 and 2?

**Pam **22:00

I don't know that I've played them both. No, there's two levels from 12. So, now it's making me look. So, this one just has a bunch of twelves. Now, I got to go look. What is the second one have? Maybe I'm reading this wrong. Hold on. A second one has a different (unclear). Oh, it has a diamond. So, the first one doesn't have a... I don't know what the... I'm not sure what the difference between the two.

**Kim **22:17

Is it an actual diamond or is it a rhombus parallel?

**Pam **22:20

Oh, it's it's neither. It looks like a diamond ring. It's not.

**Kim **22:23

Oh, that's great, that's great. I love it.

**Pam **22:25

(unclear) It's a pentagon, yeah.

**Kim **22:27

But it's a diamond ring. I'm all here for that.

**Pam **22:29

There you go. There you go. Thank you for clarifying on that shape. Yes. So, my point is with 24, you're first going to mess around with twelves, and then the very next thing is you're going to mess around with twos. And so, that commutative property is just happening with every one of these guys. In 24, after you do twelves and twos, then you do eights, then you do threes.

**Kim **22:50

Yep.

**Pam **22:50

Then you do eights and threes. Then you do sixes. Then you do fours. Then you do sixes and fours. Then you do... Are you ready for this? Sixteens Oh, love it.

**Kim **23:01

Yeah!

**Pam **23:01

I think he's so clever. (unclear).

**Kim **23:03

Does he do nines at all?

**Pam **23:06

Well, after... So, let's just for everybody. Sixteens. How are you going to get from 16 to 24?

**Kim **23:12

Okay, wait. I got to write it down. We're going for 24.

**Pam **23:14

Mmhm.

**Kim **23:15

And we have a bunch of sixteens?

**Pam **23:16

Correct.

**Kim **23:17

Okay, then you're going to break them into fours and put the fours together.

**Pam **23:21

And put the fours together. And I was going to break them into eights and put the eights together.

**Kim **23:25

Okay, will it let you break it in either.

**Pam **23:27

Yes.

**Kim **23:28

Okay, cool.

**Pam **23:29

Yeah, you have the option. Mmhm. So, the next one is to get to 24 from eighteens.

**Kim **23:35

Okay. So, sixes or threes.

**Pam **23:39

Nice. Yes, yes. And then the next one is sixteens and eighteens in the same one.

**Kim **23:45

Okay.

**Pam **23:45

The next one is twenties. So, let's everybody think. Podcast listeners, if you have twenties, how are you going to get from twenties to 24? Okay, Kim, what are you thinking?

**Kim **23:55

I'm going to break it into fours and fives, and put the fours together.

**Pam **24:00

So, when you say fours and fives, you mean five 4s? Because you're not....

**Kim **24:05

Oh, yeah.

**Pam **24:05

One factor, right? One factor. Yeah.

**Kim **24:07

I wrote 5, 4 on my paper.

**Pam **24:09

There you go. There you go. Nice. Nice. And then the last level for 24 is it gives you twos, threes, fours, and fives. A minute ago you asked if nines, I think. It does not ask from nines. But (unclear).

**Kim **24:21

Maybe because it's too many of them. You know? (unclear).

**Pam **24:24

Yeah, maybe we only need so many twenty-fours. Yeah. Okay, cool. Okay, so...

**Kim **24:28

So, what's really cool is as you go up the levels, right? I'm kind of assuming it's like you're progressing (unclear).

**Pam **24:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

**Kim **24:36

Within the 24, I had to think about the 20, so I'm reinforcing the 20 that I already did.

**Pam **24:45

Mmhm.

**Kim **24:46

And because I'm within 24, he's using what we've already built.

**Pam **24:52

Yeah, yeah. Especially because he's using any of the factors of 24 we've already messed with.

**Kim **24:59

Yeah.

**Pam **25:00

Yeah, yeah. Cool. So, the next one is twenty-fives, and I wanted to actually ask you this one specifically. So, in make 25, the first level is from fives. Okay. So, you need five 5s together. The second level is from tens. I don't think that's too big of a stretch. Split the 10 into fives, and then put the fives together. The next one's from twenties. What are you thinking about from twenties? How would you get 25?

**Kim **25:02

So, it's four 5s? Put some fives back together.

25:09

Put some fives back together. The last one is twos, threes, fours, and fives all in the same screen. Twos, threes, fours, and fives. Threes. That's kind of weird.

**Kim **25:37

Yeah.

**Pam **25:38

What are you going to do with the threes?

**Kim **25:39

Do I have a bunch of threes or just a few? Like...

**Pam **25:42

Let me get in there. You've got...

**Kim **25:43

I can have as many as I want?

**Pam **25:45

No, no.

**Kim **25:46

Okay.

**Pam **25:46

Only the ones on the screen. There's a lot, so I'd have to count. Let's see. 2, 4, 6, 8, 10. There's ten 3s. You can't put them all together because that would be 30, and that's more than 25.

25:56

Yeah. So, I want something that is made of threes that's under 25.

**Pam **26:01

Mmhm. That what? What are you looking for? Like, finish that sentence.

26:06

Something that's under. That's made of threes. A product under threes that is divisible by 5 also.

**Pam **26:19

Nice.

**Kim **26:19

So, 15.

**Pam **26:21

Nice. That was well said. That took me a minute to be able to verbalize.

**Kim **26:25

Yeah.

**Pam **26:25

That I knew I had to do something with threes that in some way was going to get me to 25. But I had a hard time thinking about what does that mean? Oh, I need only to create a product that's divisible by 5 because I want to get fives out of it, right?

**Kim **26:38

Okay, so I had to say right now. And, you know, I could wait to the end, but I'm just going to stop right now and say it. My apologies to David. I don't know if he'll ever listen to this episode. Maybe somebody can tell him. My massive apologies because... I don't know. It was like two years ago. Three years? Whenever you first saw it, and you were like, "Hey, Kim, you know like, what do you think of this game? I'm really loving it." And I, you know, looked. And to be fair, I didn't go, "Yeah, I hate it." I was like, "Yeah..." I think I might've even said to you, "Yeah, don't hate it." And I got my kids on.

**Pam **27:08

Which is typically high praise, but okay.

**Kim **27:13

I am judgy about techy things. I don't know why. I just feel like we spend so much time on them, and it's waste. Anyway. So, but I did. I think maybe he even gave us an account. Like, so kind. And I got my kids on it, and they played. And I was like, "Yeah. Okay, cool." But I didn't spend any time. You know like, my kids are... You know, because they're my kids, they're like not easily pleased by that kind of stuff. And you loved it. And other people have loved it. And I was like, "Yeah, great." There's so much more depth than I think I even realized.

27:19

You're realizing now.

**Pam **27:19

Yeah.

**Kim **27:30

Yeah.

**Pam **27:38

Wow, that's (unclear).

**Kim **27:40

In this conversation, I'm like, "Wow, that's..." You know, there's so many layers to it. I want his brain.

**Pam **27:58

Yeah, nice.

**Kim **27:59

It's really, really well done.

**Pam **28:00

Hey, let me just say one more thing. So, on this 25 level, it says "Make a move for you," I'm going to click "Yes", and I'm just going to tell you that it just... Oh, see now... That's funny. It did it so fast I didn't see what it did. Ah!

**Kim **28:01

Got to pay attention.

**Pam **28:05

Now, I would have to sit here for to do it again. Yeah, let's not do that. So, let me just mention really quick before we're done. After 25, then 27, 28, 30 But if I'm going to go all the way up to like 35, 36, 40, 42, 44, 45, 48, and 50. In the 50, there's a level that asks how do you make 50 from 40? Which I'll just throw that out. Like, and one of them is from 45. So, just kind of be... Like, listeners, hopefully you're intrigued at this point to just go, "Whoa! Like, how would you do that?!" Ya'll, I'm scrolling. It goes all the way... Can I even get all the way to the end? It goes all the way up to make 200 is the last one. Make 144. Make 132, 121, 120 Anyway, I think it's fantastic. David, I think you're onto something. Ya'll, If it were me, I would have this on my phone. I think it's $2.99. Stick and Split. If I was a teacher, I'd have the classroom companion thing whatever. I think this you can do unbelievably amazing things with this. I would recommend it over and over again.

**Kim **28:18

Yeah. You just recently did.

**Pam **28:30

And I did actually, yes. I had just had an ultrasound the other day. Medical stuff. Whatever. And the ultrasound tech was asking me, "You know, what do you do?" Whatever. And I said... She said, "You know, what can I do to help my kid?" And I said put Stick and Split on your phone. Absolutely do it right now. Your kid will love it. It'll be fantastic. Play it with them. Talk about it. All the things." And I also suggested Number Hive, which we are going to talk about in our next episode. Yeah?

29:48

Yeah. Hey, we're in Texas, and we are either on or close to summer break in schools. And, you know, parents ask you. Teachers, it's a great time for you to check it out. There is single user app. And there's a class package available. If I were in the classroom right now, I would be writing some fantastic questions to go along with the time that my kids were spending on the app. There's so many things you can do with it. So, check it out. Let us know what you think.

**Pam **30:16

Fantastic. Thank you, for tuning in and teaching more and more real math. To find out more about the Math is Figure-Out-Able movement, visit mathisfigureoutable.com And keep spreading the word that Math is Figure-Out-Able!