{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":13.26,"endTime":14.13,"body":"Today on good."},{"startTime":14.13,"endTime":19.35,"body":"In theory, private government, bad working"},{"startTime":14.13,"endTime":19.35,"body":"conditions and pissing yourself from."},{"startTime":20.775,"endTime":21.555,"body":"I'm Clif Mark."},{"startTime":22.065,"endTime":23.685,"body":"And this is good."},{"startTime":23.685,"endTime":24.105,"body":"In theory."},{"startTime":34.035,"endTime":34.785,"body":"Today on good."},{"startTime":34.785,"endTime":36.795,"body":"In theory, we have Elizabeth Anderson."},{"startTime":37.155,"endTime":40.815,"body":"She is a professor of philosophy at the"},{"startTime":37.155,"endTime":40.815,"body":"university of Michigan at Ann Arbor."},{"startTime":41.145,"endTime":44.175,"body":"She's the author of three books,"},{"startTime":41.145,"endTime":44.175,"body":"including her latest, which"},{"startTime":44.175,"endTime":46.275,"body":"is called private government."},{"startTime":46.635,"endTime":50.355,"body":"We're going to be talking about that"},{"startTime":46.635,"endTime":50.355,"body":"today and thank you for coming on."},{"startTime":50.835,"endTime":51.705,"body":"Thanks for inviting"},{"startTime":51.705,"endTime":51.975,"body":"me."},{"startTime":52.695,"endTime":53.535,"body":"You're very welcome."},{"startTime":54.075,"endTime":55.095,"body":"And to jump right in."},{"startTime":55.725,"endTime":57.195,"body":"What's your target in this book?"},{"startTime":57.735,"endTime":58.455,"body":"What is the."},{"startTime":59.489,"endTime":60.389,"body":"That you're arguing"},{"startTime":60.599,"endTime":61.23,"body":"against."},{"startTime":61.379,"endTime":67.11,"body":"So my target is an ideology that"},{"startTime":61.379,"endTime":67.11,"body":"calls itself libertarianism, or"},{"startTime":67.14,"endTime":72.03,"body":"maybe, you know, free markets in"},{"startTime":67.14,"endTime":72.03,"body":"general, free market capitalism."},{"startTime":72.78,"endTime":82.199,"body":"And, um, what they officially say about"},{"startTime":72.78,"endTime":82.199,"body":"themselves, the advocates of this view is"},{"startTime":82.199,"endTime":86.16,"body":"that, well, all we want is free markets,"},{"startTime":82.199,"endTime":86.16,"body":"and then everybody has freedom of choice"},{"startTime":86.16,"endTime":87.78,"body":"and they can choose whatever they want."},{"startTime":88.815,"endTime":89.145,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":89.145,"endTime":92.595,"body":"Where to work, what to buy and so forth."},{"startTime":92.685,"endTime":97.275,"body":"And so that maximizes freedom"},{"startTime":92.685,"endTime":97.275,"body":"and my critique is that"},{"startTime":98.655,"endTime":102.255,"body":"libertarianism is misrepresenting."},{"startTime":102.285,"endTime":107.325,"body":"The society we live in, which is"},{"startTime":102.285,"endTime":107.325,"body":"not really so much about markets,"},{"startTime":107.895,"endTime":113.595,"body":"markets are just the conduits by"},{"startTime":107.895,"endTime":113.595,"body":"which people are channeled into"},{"startTime":113.595,"endTime":115.665,"body":"these little private governments."},{"startTime":117.044,"endTime":122.085,"body":"We spend most of our waking lives at"},{"startTime":117.044,"endTime":122.085,"body":"work, if we're not retired or children,"},{"startTime":123.104,"endTime":125.085,"body":"and what happens to us at work?"},{"startTime":125.115,"endTime":131.475,"body":"Well, then we lie under the government"},{"startTime":125.115,"endTime":131.475,"body":"of our employer who orders us around"},{"startTime":131.954,"endTime":136.695,"body":"while we're at work pretty minute"},{"startTime":131.954,"endTime":136.695,"body":"early and often enough even also"},{"startTime":136.695,"endTime":139.515,"body":"controls what we get to do off duty."},{"startTime":142.214,"endTime":146.325,"body":"So, let me just pause and, uh,"},{"startTime":142.214,"endTime":146.325,"body":"take that apart a little bit."},{"startTime":146.505,"endTime":147.674,"body":"Just take it piece by piece."},{"startTime":147.795,"endTime":155.204,"body":"So the libertarianism view is that"},{"startTime":147.795,"endTime":155.204,"body":"we should have free markets as in"},{"startTime":155.535,"endTime":160.785,"body":"the government should stay out of"},{"startTime":155.535,"endTime":160.785,"body":"private business, less regulation,"},{"startTime":160.875,"endTime":167.415,"body":"maybe fewer taxes, um, not so many"},{"startTime":160.875,"endTime":167.415,"body":"labor laws, that kind of thing."},{"startTime":167.774,"endTime":170.265,"body":"And the reason they do this is because."},{"startTime":171.209,"endTime":174.209,"body":"The fear that they're working"},{"startTime":171.209,"endTime":174.209,"body":"against is a kind of tyranny"},{"startTime":174.209,"endTime":175.5,"body":"or domination by government."},{"startTime":175.98,"endTime":177.869,"body":"The government is going to get"},{"startTime":175.98,"endTime":177.869,"body":"in our business, tell us what to"},{"startTime":177.869,"endTime":179.549,"body":"do, and really we should be free."},{"startTime":179.609,"endTime":184.47,"body":"And if we're in the private sector, that's"},{"startTime":179.609,"endTime":184.47,"body":"up to private citizens and private market"},{"startTime":184.47,"endTime":186.06,"body":"actors to decide what they're going to do."},{"startTime":186.45,"endTime":193.049,"body":"And, um, the Liberty in libertarianism"},{"startTime":186.45,"endTime":193.049,"body":"seems to be the Liberty from any"},{"startTime":193.049,"endTime":195.03,"body":"government experience, uh, interference."},{"startTime":195.06,"endTime":197.519,"body":"So it's about free market capitalism."},{"startTime":197.519,"endTime":198.12,"body":"Is that, is that."},{"startTime":199.049,"endTime":200.7,"body":"That's how it represents itself."},{"startTime":200.73,"endTime":201.18,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":202.29,"endTime":209.37,"body":"Um, and this argument, what are"},{"startTime":202.29,"endTime":209.37,"body":"some of the public policies and"},{"startTime":209.37,"endTime":211.35,"body":"stuff that is used to justify?"},{"startTime":213.12,"endTime":216.42,"body":"Well, deregulation is a big one."},{"startTime":216.42,"endTime":221.82,"body":"Deregulating the market, especially"},{"startTime":216.42,"endTime":221.82,"body":"in the context of labor laws,"},{"startTime":221.85,"endTime":223.47,"body":"getting rid of labor unions."},{"startTime":223.5,"endTime":223.74,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":223.74,"endTime":226.829,"body":"If the employer doesn't want it, they"},{"startTime":223.74,"endTime":226.829,"body":"don't have to negotiate with labor unions."},{"startTime":227.79,"endTime":228.09,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":228.09,"endTime":233.55,"body":"They can pressure fire workers who"},{"startTime":228.09,"endTime":233.55,"body":"want to organize the workplace because"},{"startTime":233.55,"endTime":236.13,"body":"unions would just interfere"},{"startTime":233.55,"endTime":236.13,"body":"with the Liberty of individual"},{"startTime":236.13,"endTime":239.13,"body":"workers to strike the kind of"},{"startTime":236.13,"endTime":239.13,"body":"bargains that are good for them is"},{"startTime":239.13,"endTime":241.08,"body":"that that's the theory, right?"},{"startTime":241.11,"endTime":242.7,"body":"That's a generic, right?"},{"startTime":243.63,"endTime":248.16,"body":"I mean, in reality, what workers"},{"startTime":243.63,"endTime":248.16,"body":"face when they're not unionized"},{"startTime":248.16,"endTime":251.4,"body":"is a contract of adhesion."},{"startTime":251.43,"endTime":254.25,"body":"That is the terms are all"},{"startTime":251.43,"endTime":254.25,"body":"dictated by the employer."},{"startTime":254.28,"endTime":255.93,"body":"And unless you're somebody like."},{"startTime":256.709,"endTime":260.73,"body":"A free agent in baseball who"},{"startTime":256.709,"endTime":260.73,"body":"has extremely rare talents and"},{"startTime":260.73,"endTime":264.81,"body":"can negotiate a specifically"},{"startTime":260.73,"endTime":264.81,"body":"tailored package just for them."},{"startTime":265.08,"endTime":268.32,"body":"You're just going to accept you,"},{"startTime":265.08,"endTime":268.32,"body":"just going to have to accept whatever"},{"startTime":268.32,"endTime":270.12,"body":"they offer because back into the"},{"startTime":270.34,"endTime":273.39,"body":"shit, most of us are not a hot,"},{"startTime":270.34,"endTime":273.39,"body":"free agent baseball players."},{"startTime":273.42,"endTime":273.63,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":274.77,"endTime":278.31,"body":"I think, I think most of the listeners"},{"startTime":274.77,"endTime":278.31,"body":"will at least be passingly familiar"},{"startTime":278.31,"endTime":279.81,"body":"with the view that you're describing."},{"startTime":280.2,"endTime":281.46,"body":"Um, we've heard it somewhere before."},{"startTime":282.645,"endTime":286.484,"body":"Who are some big names that are out"},{"startTime":282.645,"endTime":286.484,"body":"there defending this position today?"},{"startTime":287.534,"endTime":292.604,"body":"Well, Tyler Cowen has a very popular"},{"startTime":287.534,"endTime":292.604,"body":"podcast, uh, and he was one of the"},{"startTime":292.604,"endTime":297.825,"body":"respondents in my book, private"},{"startTime":292.604,"endTime":297.825,"body":"government, although lately he has been"},{"startTime":298.695,"endTime":302.205,"body":"inching away from a pure free market view."},{"startTime":302.505,"endTime":303.405,"body":"Well done well done."},{"startTime":304.755,"endTime":307.305,"body":"Although not so much on the"},{"startTime":304.755,"endTime":307.305,"body":"employment context, what's"},{"startTime":307.305,"endTime":308.854,"body":"really been moving him away from."},{"startTime":309.615,"endTime":314.205,"body":"The patent inability of private"},{"startTime":309.615,"endTime":314.205,"body":"businesses and private enterprise to"},{"startTime":314.505,"endTime":319.665,"body":"really manage climate change, which is"},{"startTime":314.505,"endTime":319.665,"body":"a global crisis that requires pretty"},{"startTime":319.665,"endTime":322.455,"body":"powerful state action to cope with."},{"startTime":323.205,"endTime":326.805,"body":"So, so Tyler, Cowen, you see it"},{"startTime":323.205,"endTime":326.805,"body":"from politicians probably all the"},{"startTime":326.805,"endTime":332.295,"body":"time, the freedom caucus,"},{"startTime":326.805,"endTime":332.295,"body":"Paul Ryan, people like that."},{"startTime":332.295,"endTime":336.345,"body":"And Congress, they're very powerful and I"},{"startTime":336.345,"endTime":336.675,"body":"guess."},{"startTime":337.755,"endTime":339.854,"body":"Here anyone calling themselves"},{"startTime":337.755,"endTime":339.854,"body":"a classical liberal, that's"},{"startTime":339.854,"endTime":342.825,"body":"probably seems a little bit of code"},{"startTime":342.825,"endTime":347.505,"body":"for the same thing, the term that"},{"startTime":342.825,"endTime":347.505,"body":"advocates use to describe themselves."},{"startTime":348.405,"endTime":348.705,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":349.275,"endTime":349.425,"body":"And"},{"startTime":349.425,"endTime":353.025,"body":"so this view it's really"},{"startTime":349.425,"endTime":353.025,"body":"popular, really powerful."},{"startTime":353.025,"endTime":357.555,"body":"I mean, I grew up in the sort"},{"startTime":353.025,"endTime":357.555,"body":"of closing act of the cold war."},{"startTime":357.854,"endTime":358.275,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":358.575,"endTime":364.2,"body":"And so it seemed, um, That we only"},{"startTime":358.575,"endTime":364.2,"body":"had a choice between two things."},{"startTime":364.26,"endTime":370.169,"body":"It was either this, you know, uh,"},{"startTime":364.26,"endTime":370.169,"body":"capitalism, freedom, America baseball,"},{"startTime":370.2,"endTime":376.02,"body":"or, uh, Soviet dictatorship, Borsch, ice"},{"startTime":370.2,"endTime":376.02,"body":"hockey, you know, all the bad things."},{"startTime":376.74,"endTime":377.01,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":378.09,"endTime":379.229,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"startTime":379.229,"endTime":384.18,"body":"I mean, it was really the fall"},{"startTime":379.229,"endTime":384.18,"body":"of communism in like starting"},{"startTime":384.18,"endTime":387.18,"body":"around 1989 that led to."},{"startTime":388.094,"endTime":393.164,"body":"View this libertarian free market view"},{"startTime":388.094,"endTime":393.164,"body":"that there's all right, this is, there's"},{"startTime":393.164,"endTime":395.835,"body":"no alternative to free market capitalism."},{"startTime":395.835,"endTime":396.765,"body":"That's what we have."},{"startTime":396.765,"endTime":397.844,"body":"And we got to live with it."},{"startTime":398.145,"endTime":400.005,"body":"Yes, it was the end of history."},{"startTime":400.215,"endTime":400.695,"body":"Correct."},{"startTime":400.905,"endTime":401.924,"body":"That was the theory."},{"startTime":404.145,"endTime":408.765,"body":"So, so I want to get, I want to, now"},{"startTime":404.145,"endTime":408.765,"body":"that we have that opposition between"},{"startTime":408.765,"endTime":412.455,"body":"the libertarian view versus communist"},{"startTime":408.765,"endTime":412.455,"body":"dictatorship, I want to just put"},{"startTime":412.455,"endTime":415.515,"body":"a pin in that dichotomy for now."},{"startTime":416.909,"endTime":422.94,"body":"And have you take us back to where"},{"startTime":416.909,"endTime":422.94,"body":"this sort of free market libertarian"},{"startTime":422.94,"endTime":426.93,"body":"classical liberal view came from and"},{"startTime":422.94,"endTime":426.93,"body":"what it was like when it started."},{"startTime":426.93,"endTime":432.479,"body":"So who are the intellectual touchstones"},{"startTime":426.93,"endTime":432.479,"body":"that people reached back to to"},{"startTime":432.479,"endTime":434.159,"body":"justify this, this view of the world?"},{"startTime":436.26,"endTime":442.08,"body":"Advocacy of the free market from"},{"startTime":436.26,"endTime":442.08,"body":"the 17th century levelers in England"},{"startTime":442.469,"endTime":446.599,"body":"who are very pro worker group,"},{"startTime":442.469,"endTime":446.599,"body":"they're actually workers who were"},{"startTime":446.619,"endTime":449.549,"body":"demanding a Republican constitution."},{"startTime":449.549,"endTime":452.609,"body":"That's a smaller Republican that is"},{"startTime":449.549,"endTime":452.609,"body":"getting rid of the monarchy and the"},{"startTime":452.609,"endTime":458.46,"body":"house of Lords, having a democracy"},{"startTime":452.609,"endTime":458.46,"body":"really, um, through Adam Smith and"},{"startTime":458.46,"endTime":461.13,"body":"the early classical political economy."},{"startTime":462.21,"endTime":467.159,"body":"But what they had in mind was a"},{"startTime":462.21,"endTime":467.159,"body":"very different system than what"},{"startTime":467.159,"endTime":469.38,"body":"is called libertarianism today."},{"startTime":469.89,"endTime":476.31,"body":"So take Adam Smith, the great"},{"startTime":469.89,"endTime":476.31,"body":"creator of economic theory,"},{"startTime":476.46,"endTime":477.96,"body":"one of the great founders."},{"startTime":478.44,"endTime":482.4,"body":"So Smith is thought today to be"},{"startTime":478.44,"endTime":482.4,"body":"an advocate of libertarianism"},{"startTime":482.4,"endTime":483.96,"body":"as we call it today."},{"startTime":484.229,"endTime":488.28,"body":"But if you go back and read what"},{"startTime":484.229,"endTime":488.28,"body":"he said, he actually thought that"},{"startTime":488.34,"endTime":489.87,"body":"there shouldn't be corporations."},{"startTime":492.734,"endTime":499.875,"body":"Corporations for just, um, instruments"},{"startTime":492.734,"endTime":499.875,"body":"whereby the executives of the firm stole"},{"startTime":499.875,"endTime":502.935,"body":"everybody's money in all kinds of scans."},{"startTime":504.375,"endTime":505.844,"body":"There are a couple of examples I can think"},{"startTime":505.844,"endTime":510.645,"body":"of, well, in his day it was the south"},{"startTime":505.844,"endTime":510.645,"body":"sea bubble today it's cryptocurrency."},{"startTime":510.645,"endTime":510.945,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":510.974,"endTime":511.365,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":512.324,"endTime":516.735,"body":"So, so Adam, Adam Smith, he's this"},{"startTime":512.324,"endTime":516.735,"body":"figure that free market guys are always"},{"startTime":516.735,"endTime":521.715,"body":"reaching back to and saying, look, you"},{"startTime":516.735,"endTime":521.715,"body":"know, uh, It's the most efficient way."},{"startTime":521.715,"endTime":522.975,"body":"This is freedom for all."},{"startTime":522.975,"endTime":524.895,"body":"This is how we have a wealthy society."},{"startTime":524.895,"endTime":531.435,"body":"It's the wealth of nations is because"},{"startTime":524.895,"endTime":531.435,"body":"we can have a free market, but Smith"},{"startTime":531.765,"endTime":535.575,"body":"didn't really think this, or he thought"},{"startTime":531.765,"endTime":535.575,"body":"this is some kind of qualified way."},{"startTime":536.045,"endTime":541.925,"body":"We have to consider the system that"},{"startTime":536.045,"endTime":541.925,"body":"Smith was arguing against in which he"},{"startTime":541.925,"endTime":544.415,"body":"thought free markets would be superior to."},{"startTime":545.135,"endTime":548.405,"body":"So he was arguing against"},{"startTime":545.135,"endTime":548.405,"body":"Merck and tell is."},{"startTime":549.21,"endTime":551.82,"body":"And feudal large ship."},{"startTime":552.45,"endTime":552.75,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":553.23,"endTime":559.68,"body":"And so his argument is if you go back"},{"startTime":553.23,"endTime":559.68,"body":"to the feudal times, everybody was"},{"startTime":559.68,"endTime":562.08,"body":"in subjection to the landlord, right?"},{"startTime":562.11,"endTime":567.75,"body":"They're a tenant who could be, you"},{"startTime":562.11,"endTime":567.75,"body":"know, abused by their landlord."},{"startTime":567.75,"endTime":572.22,"body":"They're paying out almost all of"},{"startTime":567.75,"endTime":572.22,"body":"their income and rents, or there's"},{"startTime":572.22,"endTime":575.73,"body":"some kind of domestic servant"},{"startTime":572.22,"endTime":575.73,"body":"inside the Lord's household."},{"startTime":576.54,"endTime":580.949,"body":"They have to kowtow and cater"},{"startTime":576.54,"endTime":580.949,"body":"at the Lawrence themselves."},{"startTime":580.979,"endTime":585.3,"body":"There, they're getting mountains"},{"startTime":580.979,"endTime":585.3,"body":"of money in rents, but they have no"},{"startTime":585.3,"endTime":587.37,"body":"other way to spend it as he put it."},{"startTime":587.489,"endTime":592.319,"body":"Then just by maintaining all of"},{"startTime":587.489,"endTime":592.319,"body":"these dependence on his manner."},{"startTime":593.04,"endTime":593.31,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":593.339,"endTime":594.839,"body":"So he may be entertains."},{"startTime":594.849,"endTime":600.63,"body":"Lots of people feeds them and so forth,"},{"startTime":594.849,"endTime":600.63,"body":"but they all have to obey him every last."},{"startTime":602.25,"endTime":605.939,"body":"And they even, you know, the feudal era,"},{"startTime":602.25,"endTime":605.939,"body":"they even had their own private armies."},{"startTime":605.97,"endTime":608.699,"body":"They did have to swear loyalty"},{"startTime":605.97,"endTime":608.699,"body":"to the king, but really they're"},{"startTime":608.699,"endTime":610.199,"body":"running their own malicious sort"},{"startTime":610.199,"endTime":610.35,"body":"of."},{"startTime":610.86,"endTime":616.17,"body":"So you've got these, uh, feudal Lords"},{"startTime":610.86,"endTime":616.17,"body":"in everyone else's are private servant."},{"startTime":616.83,"endTime":621.24,"body":"Could you just draw a distinction, the"},{"startTime":616.83,"endTime":621.24,"body":"distinction between this system and."},{"startTime":621.99,"endTime":624.39,"body":"The free market system"},{"startTime":621.99,"endTime":624.39,"body":"that Smith is arguing"},{"startTime":624.39,"endTime":624.69,"body":"for."},{"startTime":624.75,"endTime":629.91,"body":"It's definitely, there's very, markets"},{"startTime":624.75,"endTime":629.91,"body":"are very primitive in those days and"},{"startTime":629.97,"endTime":635.79,"body":"because really the Manor is a pretty"},{"startTime":629.97,"endTime":635.79,"body":"self-sufficient unit of economics, right."},{"startTime":635.79,"endTime":637.23,"body":"They grow all their own food."},{"startTime":637.23,"endTime":638.25,"body":"They're eating everything."},{"startTime":638.25,"endTime":640.14,"body":"They produce pretty much right there."},{"startTime":640.47,"endTime":643.86,"body":"And then Smith talks about the"},{"startTime":640.47,"endTime":643.86,"body":"rise of commercial society."},{"startTime":644.579,"endTime":647.64,"body":"Trade and, you know, spices."},{"startTime":647.64,"endTime":652.349,"body":"And so coming from China and Asia"},{"startTime":647.64,"endTime":652.349,"body":"and so forth, you get the rise of"},{"startTime":652.349,"endTime":660.359,"body":"international trade and suddenly as"},{"startTime":652.349,"endTime":660.359,"body":"Smith puts it, everything for myself and"},{"startTime":660.359,"endTime":663.39,"body":"nothing for anyone else is the viral."},{"startTime":664.86,"endTime":668.55,"body":"Of the masters of humanity, right?"},{"startTime":668.73,"endTime":670.11,"body":"He's telling you about the Lord's her."},{"startTime":670.11,"endTime":671.939,"body":"So gradient vain, right?"},{"startTime":672.0,"endTime":674.17,"body":"They don't want it to"},{"startTime":672.0,"endTime":674.17,"body":"spend their money anymore."},{"startTime":674.189,"endTime":675.63,"body":"Maintaining dependence."},{"startTime":675.66,"endTime":681.09,"body":"They want to spend it on fancy"},{"startTime":675.66,"endTime":681.09,"body":"jewelry and, you know, saffron"},{"startTime":681.09,"endTime":683.31,"body":"every day, this kind of stuff."},{"startTime":683.31,"endTime":683.64,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":683.97,"endTime":687.39,"body":"And maybe a ball gown for their"},{"startTime":683.97,"endTime":687.39,"body":"wife or something like this."},{"startTime":687.66,"endTime":693.96,"body":"Um, but in order to spend it all on"},{"startTime":687.66,"endTime":693.96,"body":"themselves, What that means is then"},{"startTime":694.3,"endTime":698.19,"body":"they are demanding crafts right there."},{"startTime":698.19,"endTime":703.32,"body":"They're selling, they're buying stuff from"},{"startTime":698.19,"endTime":703.32,"body":"retailers and craftsmen in the cities."},{"startTime":703.89,"endTime":705.96,"body":"Those people are liberated, right?"},{"startTime":705.96,"endTime":709.41,"body":"Because now, instead of being"},{"startTime":705.96,"endTime":709.41,"body":"domestic servants, they're off their,"},{"startTime":709.41,"endTime":710.91,"body":"they own their own little shop."},{"startTime":710.94,"endTime":711.72,"body":"They're independent."},{"startTime":712.814,"endTime":713.204,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":713.265,"endTime":718.365,"body":"And that rise of commercial side"},{"startTime":713.265,"endTime":718.365,"body":"city, where the Lord's now have"},{"startTime":718.365,"endTime":722.865,"body":"to buy all their stuff from shops"},{"startTime":718.365,"endTime":722.865,"body":"rather than having slaves or servants"},{"startTime":722.895,"endTime":724.905,"body":"produce it for them on their manner."},{"startTime":725.535,"endTime":725.834,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":726.615,"endTime":726.944,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":726.944,"endTime":731.265,"body":"It's much better to be an independent"},{"startTime":726.944,"endTime":731.265,"body":"businessman than it is to be."},{"startTime":731.984,"endTime":735.314,"body":"You know, a survival"},{"startTime":731.984,"endTime":735.314,"body":"subject of your local Lord."},{"startTime":735.494,"endTime":738.104,"body":"So they, those people"},{"startTime":735.494,"endTime":738.104,"body":"are liberated, right?"},{"startTime":738.675,"endTime":742.155,"body":"And so is this, this is,"},{"startTime":738.675,"endTime":742.155,"body":"uh, Smith's vision, right?"},{"startTime":742.185,"endTime":747.584,"body":"It's that we have this commercial society"},{"startTime":742.185,"endTime":747.584,"body":"where it's all independent craftsmen"},{"startTime":747.584,"endTime":750.824,"body":"and farmers trading with each other,"},{"startTime":747.584,"endTime":750.824,"body":"instead of all of us kowtowing to the"},{"startTime":750.824,"endTime":751.244,"body":"Lord."},{"startTime":751.364,"endTime":752.055,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":752.055,"endTime":756.405,"body":"And so the other side of this is"},{"startTime":752.055,"endTime":756.405,"body":"of course the agricultural sector."},{"startTime":757.275,"endTime":760.395,"body":"And he RQ stare to that market society."},{"startTime":760.425,"endTime":765.975,"body":"Commercial society liberated them"},{"startTime":760.425,"endTime":765.975,"body":"because the Lords, uh, wanted to"},{"startTime":765.975,"endTime":770.115,"body":"raise the rents so that they could"},{"startTime":765.975,"endTime":770.115,"body":"spend more money on themselves."},{"startTime":770.655,"endTime":774.945,"body":"But the farmers had some bargaining"},{"startTime":770.655,"endTime":774.945,"body":"power and they said, well, if you do"},{"startTime":774.945,"endTime":777.795,"body":"that, then we want long-term leases."},{"startTime":778.365,"endTime":782.67,"body":"And sometimes say could even"},{"startTime":778.365,"endTime":782.67,"body":"by their own way, And then they"},{"startTime":782.67,"endTime":784.29,"body":"would be independent of the Lord."},{"startTime":784.41,"endTime":790.62,"body":"So in both the agricultural sector and"},{"startTime":784.41,"endTime":790.62,"body":"in the manufacturing and commercial"},{"startTime":790.62,"endTime":798.479,"body":"sector, you see the rise of a large class"},{"startTime":790.62,"endTime":798.479,"body":"of people who are independent of the"},{"startTime":798.479,"endTime":800.939,"body":"rich and they run their own business."},{"startTime":801.0,"endTime":804.87,"body":"And what Smith's vision was"},{"startTime":801.0,"endTime":804.87,"body":"to pursue that to the max."},{"startTime":805.665,"endTime":810.915,"body":"And the way to do that was to abolish"},{"startTime":805.665,"endTime":810.915,"body":"the inheritance laws that kept the"},{"startTime":810.915,"endTime":816.734,"body":"largest states locked up in the hands"},{"startTime":810.915,"endTime":816.734,"body":"of about 30,000 English families."},{"startTime":817.484,"endTime":822.675,"body":"So his, his idea was that if you free up"},{"startTime":817.484,"endTime":822.675,"body":"the market and have commercial society,"},{"startTime":822.675,"endTime":826.604,"body":"that's actually going to suck all the"},{"startTime":822.675,"endTime":826.604,"body":"money out of these rich Lord's industries."},{"startTime":827.37,"endTime":830.699,"body":"So that more people can be independent"},{"startTime":827.37,"endTime":830.699,"body":"instead of dependent on them."},{"startTime":830.699,"endTime":831.329,"body":"It frees them."},{"startTime":831.599,"endTime":832.68,"body":"Yes, exactly."},{"startTime":832.68,"endTime":836.25,"body":"And if you break up the largest"},{"startTime":832.68,"endTime":836.25,"body":"states, if you enable them to be"},{"startTime":836.25,"endTime":841.755,"body":"broken, Then they will be broken up"},{"startTime":836.25,"endTime":841.755,"body":"because the Lords are not good farmers."},{"startTime":842.385,"endTime":843.074,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":843.074,"endTime":846.345,"body":"They don't pay attention to the"},{"startTime":843.074,"endTime":846.345,"body":"details needed to maintain a"},{"startTime":846.345,"endTime":848.145,"body":"really efficient farming operation,"},{"startTime":848.295,"endTime":851.205,"body":"um, hunting and drinking to do,"},{"startTime":848.295,"endTime":851.205,"body":"why are they going to worry about"},{"startTime":851.205,"endTime":851.385,"body":"pharma?"},{"startTime":851.725,"endTime":851.895,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":851.895,"endTime":855.015,"body":"They're busy, you know, hunting"},{"startTime":851.895,"endTime":855.015,"body":"down those foxes, right."},{"startTime":855.824,"endTime":857.625,"body":"Playing cards and things like that."},{"startTime":858.615,"endTime":858.915,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":858.975,"endTime":864.375,"body":"And so then they would lose their"},{"startTime":858.975,"endTime":864.375,"body":"estates because their bad businessman."},{"startTime":865.334,"endTime":869.115,"body":"And the land would fall on"},{"startTime":865.334,"endTime":869.115,"body":"the hand to the most efficient"},{"startTime":869.145,"endTime":871.905,"body":"producer who was the yeoman farmer."},{"startTime":872.385,"endTime":872.655,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":873.285,"endTime":876.704,"body":"And so everybody would be"},{"startTime":873.285,"endTime":876.704,"body":"independent at that stage."},{"startTime":877.155,"endTime":883.515,"body":"And this is, this is also sort of"},{"startTime":877.155,"endTime":883.515,"body":"blinking and early founders, vision"},{"startTime":883.515,"endTime":885.285,"body":"of a America, maybe Jefferson."},{"startTime":886.694,"endTime":889.905,"body":"It would be made up of these yeoman"},{"startTime":886.694,"endTime":889.905,"body":"farmers of these independent small"},{"startTime":889.905,"endTime":892.035,"body":"holders who would all be free?"},{"startTime":892.035,"endTime":893.474,"body":"Is that a absolutely."},{"startTime":893.474,"endTime":898.515,"body":"And America really was at the"},{"startTime":893.474,"endTime":898.515,"body":"time in the 18th century, the"},{"startTime":899.115,"endTime":903.074,"body":"utopia for people who aspire to."},{"startTime":903.855,"endTime":907.875,"body":"Uh, society of free and equal"},{"startTime":903.855,"endTime":907.875,"body":"people, at least for white people."},{"startTime":907.875,"endTime":911.685,"body":"Of course, we have to keep in mind"},{"startTime":907.875,"endTime":911.685,"body":"that America, you know, you had all"},{"startTime":911.685,"endTime":919.215,"body":"the slaves and especially in the south,"},{"startTime":911.685,"endTime":919.215,"body":"and of course the land itself, right?"},{"startTime":919.215,"endTime":923.925,"body":"What enabled the, all this freedom for"},{"startTime":919.215,"endTime":923.925,"body":"white settlers was that the land was"},{"startTime":923.925,"endTime":925.965,"body":"yanked away from the indigenous people."},{"startTime":925.965,"endTime":930.795,"body":"So you can't think that it's freedom"},{"startTime":925.965,"endTime":930.795,"body":"and equality for everybody, but in"},{"startTime":930.795,"endTime":939.06,"body":"Lincoln city, It is a stop speech"},{"startTime":930.795,"endTime":939.06,"body":"for the 1860 presidential campaign."},{"startTime":940.92,"endTime":947.849,"body":"He basically says that the ideal is,"},{"startTime":940.92,"endTime":947.849,"body":"first of all, you have free labor, right?"},{"startTime":947.859,"endTime":949.56,"body":"So you had to abolish slavery."},{"startTime":949.589,"endTime":951.39,"body":"He's right out there about that."},{"startTime":951.78,"endTime":955.109,"body":"And the second thing you have"},{"startTime":951.78,"endTime":955.109,"body":"to do is to be truly free."},{"startTime":955.109,"endTime":956.25,"body":"You have to be self-aware."},{"startTime":957.03,"endTime":959.1,"body":"He's absolutely explicit about this."},{"startTime":959.55,"endTime":963.23,"body":"And that was the origin"},{"startTime":959.55,"endTime":963.23,"body":"of the house TEDx, right?"},{"startTime":963.27,"endTime":966.33,"body":"You give away this free land"},{"startTime":963.27,"endTime":966.33,"body":"and then anybody's a farmer."},{"startTime":966.33,"endTime":968.31,"body":"They don't have to be just a hired hand."},{"startTime":968.34,"endTime":971.88,"body":"They can get their own farm and then"},{"startTime":968.34,"endTime":971.88,"body":"there'll be free and independent."},{"startTime":972.6,"endTime":977.1,"body":"And then in the marketplace, people"},{"startTime":972.6,"endTime":977.1,"body":"won't meet as equals because everyone is"},{"startTime":977.1,"endTime":979.95,"body":"basically a small business person, right."},{"startTime":979.95,"endTime":984.15,"body":"And they trade with each other as"},{"startTime":979.95,"endTime":984.15,"body":"equals, neither side can call the shots."},{"startTime":985.995,"endTime":989.445,"body":"In terms of economic theory, you have"},{"startTime":985.995,"endTime":989.445,"body":"perfect competition there, right?"},{"startTime":989.445,"endTime":992.775,"body":"There are so many different"},{"startTime":989.445,"endTime":992.775,"body":"individuals provides, you know,"},{"startTime":992.775,"endTime":996.495,"body":"selling the wheat and the corn and"},{"startTime":992.775,"endTime":996.495,"body":"like the farm implements and so"},{"startTime":996.495,"endTime":996.755,"body":"forth."},{"startTime":996.825,"endTime":998.925,"body":"If you're a butcher, I'm a"},{"startTime":996.825,"endTime":998.925,"body":"baker, someone else's a farmer."},{"startTime":998.925,"endTime":1001.775,"body":"We can work something out that's"},{"startTime":998.925,"endTime":1001.775,"body":"mutual, then mutually beneficial and"},{"startTime":1001.785,"endTime":1006.335,"body":"we'll have recognize our each other as"},{"startTime":1001.785,"endTime":1006.335,"body":"equals in those transactions because"},{"startTime":1006.335,"endTime":1010.235,"body":"nobody is so big and powerful and rich"},{"startTime":1006.335,"endTime":1010.235,"body":"that they can call the shots on anybody."},{"startTime":1011.194,"endTime":1013.265,"body":"Okay, so great, great theory."},{"startTime":1013.385,"endTime":1015.905,"body":"You know, let's free up the market"},{"startTime":1013.385,"endTime":1015.905,"body":"so we can all be independent."},{"startTime":1016.235,"endTime":1017.855,"body":"Yeoman farmers are craftsmen."},{"startTime":1017.915,"endTime":1021.064,"body":"Uh, why didn't, why didn't that work out?"},{"startTime":1021.064,"endTime":1022.355,"body":"What happened tax"},{"startTime":1022.475,"endTime":1026.135,"body":"the industrial revolution happened, right?"},{"startTime":1026.165,"endTime":1029.105,"body":"So, you know, S Smith."},{"startTime":1030.605,"endTime":1034.865,"body":"He had a good idea, which is"},{"startTime":1030.605,"endTime":1034.865,"body":"that if you get to keep a hundred"},{"startTime":1034.865,"endTime":1037.805,"body":"percent of the fruits of your labor,"},{"startTime":1034.865,"endTime":1037.805,"body":"you're going to work really, really"},{"startTime":1037.805,"endTime":1042.125,"body":"hard, and you'll be industrious"},{"startTime":1037.805,"endTime":1042.125,"body":"and frugal and efficient, right."},{"startTime":1042.125,"endTime":1043.655,"body":"You're not going to waste any money."},{"startTime":1043.685,"endTime":1044.015,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1044.795,"endTime":1047.375,"body":"Cause you get to keep all the"},{"startTime":1044.795,"endTime":1047.375,"body":"profits of your own labor."},{"startTime":1048.095,"endTime":1051.425,"body":"That's the argument for"},{"startTime":1048.095,"endTime":1051.425,"body":"universal self-employment, but"},{"startTime":1051.425,"endTime":1052.595,"body":"what he failed to consider."},{"startTime":1053.615,"endTime":1057.455,"body":"Was that economies of"},{"startTime":1053.615,"endTime":1057.455,"body":"scale are a real thing."},{"startTime":1057.695,"endTime":1063.005,"body":"And what all that technology brought"},{"startTime":1057.695,"endTime":1063.005,"body":"in by the industrial revolution, things"},{"startTime":1063.005,"endTime":1068.285,"body":"like the spinning Jenny and later on"},{"startTime":1063.005,"endTime":1068.285,"body":"in the industrial revolution, massive"},{"startTime":1068.285,"endTime":1074.405,"body":"engines that are running, you know,"},{"startTime":1068.285,"endTime":1074.405,"body":"you know, hundreds of machines, right."},{"startTime":1075.005,"endTime":1077.285,"body":"Is that economy of scale are real."},{"startTime":1078.335,"endTime":1081.295,"body":"And then an individual"},{"startTime":1078.335,"endTime":1081.295,"body":"person can't purchase."},{"startTime":1081.965,"endTime":1088.594,"body":"Those giant machines, you need to have"},{"startTime":1081.965,"endTime":1088.594,"body":"some rich capitalists buy these things and"},{"startTime":1088.655,"endTime":1095.284,"body":"build a factory, and then the workers, so"},{"startTime":1088.655,"endTime":1095.284,"body":"going to be employees of the capitalist."},{"startTime":1095.435,"endTime":1097.834,"body":"And so they're no longer we're"},{"startTime":1095.435,"endTime":1097.834,"body":"going to have that independence."},{"startTime":1097.834,"endTime":1100.175,"body":"They're going to have to"},{"startTime":1097.834,"endTime":1100.175,"body":"take orders from the boss."},{"startTime":1100.895,"endTime":1101.225,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1101.225,"endTime":1106.564,"body":"So, so the free market leading"},{"startTime":1101.225,"endTime":1106.564,"body":"to everyone's freedom works in a"},{"startTime":1106.564,"endTime":1108.034,"body":"situation of relative equality."},{"startTime":1108.034,"endTime":1110.705,"body":"If you know, we were so lucky as"},{"startTime":1108.034,"endTime":1110.705,"body":"to all be independent business."},{"startTime":1111.875,"endTime":1116.645,"body":"But as soon as you have industry and you"},{"startTime":1111.875,"endTime":1116.645,"body":"need to have these big concentrations of"},{"startTime":1116.645,"endTime":1121.535,"body":"capital in rich people and then employees"},{"startTime":1116.645,"endTime":1121.535,"body":"that creates an imbalance of power."},{"startTime":1121.985,"endTime":1122.345,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1122.525,"endTime":1123.275,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1123.335,"endTime":1123.965,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1124.145,"endTime":1129.215,"body":"And so, I mean, that, that brings us"},{"startTime":1124.145,"endTime":1129.215,"body":"into, I think, uh, you know, the title"},{"startTime":1129.215,"endTime":1131.645,"body":"of your book PRI private government."},{"startTime":1131.945,"endTime":1136.475,"body":"Um, so what do you, what do you mean"},{"startTime":1131.945,"endTime":1136.475,"body":"by that, in this, in this country?"},{"startTime":1137.135,"endTime":1137.555,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1137.825,"endTime":1142.805,"body":"So I define private government is"},{"startTime":1137.825,"endTime":1142.805,"body":"government that is unaccountable"},{"startTime":1142.805,"endTime":1144.365,"body":"to the people being governed."},{"startTime":1144.995,"endTime":1145.295,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1145.715,"endTime":1150.215,"body":"It's like somebody is ordering you around"},{"startTime":1145.715,"endTime":1150.215,"body":"and, and they're not accountable to you."},{"startTime":1151.055,"endTime":1151.415,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1151.445,"endTime":1155.615,"body":"And so private government is the"},{"startTime":1151.445,"endTime":1155.615,"body":"opposite of democracy and democracy."},{"startTime":1155.645,"endTime":1155.945,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1155.945,"endTime":1161.435,"body":"You have, you have office holders"},{"startTime":1155.945,"endTime":1161.435,"body":"who do pass laws that order people"},{"startTime":1161.435,"endTime":1166.325,"body":"around, but if you don't like those"},{"startTime":1161.435,"endTime":1166.325,"body":"laws, Then you don't, you can boot"},{"startTime":1166.325,"endTime":1168.325,"body":"them out at the next selection, right?"},{"startTime":1168.335,"endTime":1172.655,"body":"You can boot out the legislators at"},{"startTime":1168.335,"endTime":1172.655,"body":"the next election and, and elect people"},{"startTime":1172.655,"endTime":1174.215,"body":"who are going to change the laws."},{"startTime":1174.395,"endTime":1174.665,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1175.355,"endTime":1175.505,"body":"In"},{"startTime":1175.505,"endTime":1176.615,"body":"democracies, we're free."},{"startTime":1176.915,"endTime":1182.735,"body":"Uh, private government is like a"},{"startTime":1176.915,"endTime":1182.735,"body":"dictatorship or an absolute monarchy"},{"startTime":1182.735,"endTime":1185.255,"body":"where it's just a private business"},{"startTime":1182.735,"endTime":1185.255,"body":"of the leader, how to run the place."},{"startTime":1185.255,"endTime":1190.115,"body":"And everyone else doesn't have it say, but"},{"startTime":1185.255,"endTime":1190.115,"body":"we're not talking about that in your book."},{"startTime":1190.415,"endTime":1192.185,"body":"When you're talking about private"},{"startTime":1190.415,"endTime":1192.185,"body":"government, you're saying."},{"startTime":1193.295,"endTime":1194.135,"body":"In the workplace."},{"startTime":1194.135,"endTime":1199.145,"body":"When we go to our jobs, we are living"},{"startTime":1194.135,"endTime":1199.145,"body":"under a kind of private government."},{"startTime":1199.145,"endTime":1201.155,"body":"That's kind of like an absolute monarchy,"},{"startTime":1201.305,"endTime":1201.485,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":1201.665,"endTime":1201.905,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1201.935,"endTime":1207.575,"body":"It's not quite absolute, you know, in,"},{"startTime":1201.935,"endTime":1207.575,"body":"in modern capitalism, but I think we"},{"startTime":1207.575,"endTime":1214.775,"body":"underestimate how much power employers"},{"startTime":1207.575,"endTime":1214.775,"body":"have over us, certainly in the workplace."},{"startTime":1214.835,"endTime":1215.975,"body":"There's no question."},{"startTime":1216.095,"endTime":1216.425,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1216.425,"endTime":1220.535,"body":"Our, our work lives are my"},{"startTime":1216.425,"endTime":1220.535,"body":"neutrally governed by our."},{"startTime":1221.66,"endTime":1222.59,"body":"For the most part."},{"startTime":1222.62,"endTime":1222.95,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1223.43,"endTime":1226.55,"body":"So that even if you're say a customer"},{"startTime":1223.43,"endTime":1226.55,"body":"service representative, you have"},{"startTime":1226.55,"endTime":1231.92,"body":"a script that you have to read"},{"startTime":1226.55,"endTime":1231.92,"body":"and they're monitoring every word."},{"startTime":1232.49,"endTime":1236.09,"body":"And for all kinds of other office"},{"startTime":1232.49,"endTime":1236.09,"body":"work, you know, maybe there's a camera"},{"startTime":1236.09,"endTime":1240.56,"body":"looking at you or a keystroke logger,"},{"startTime":1236.09,"endTime":1240.56,"body":"and they're checking on what you're"},{"startTime":1240.56,"endTime":1244.64,"body":"browsing to make sure that you're not"},{"startTime":1240.56,"endTime":1244.64,"body":"like playing solitaire or something."},{"startTime":1245.96,"endTime":1246.35,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1246.35,"endTime":1250.01,"body":"Like every last moment, there's"},{"startTime":1246.35,"endTime":1250.01,"body":"time and motion control."},{"startTime":1250.834,"endTime":1254.764,"body":"Of your bodily motions and"},{"startTime":1250.834,"endTime":1254.764,"body":"Amazon warehouses and on"},{"startTime":1254.764,"endTime":1256.895,"body":"the factory floor, right?"},{"startTime":1256.895,"endTime":1263.044,"body":"I mean, our lives are, and the pace of"},{"startTime":1256.895,"endTime":1263.044,"body":"work is determined by our boss, right?"},{"startTime":1263.044,"endTime":1267.274,"body":"So everything we do is very my"},{"startTime":1263.044,"endTime":1267.274,"body":"newly governed when we're at work."},{"startTime":1267.395,"endTime":1267.784,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1267.814,"endTime":1274.205,"body":"So at work, we are being, uh, governed at"},{"startTime":1267.814,"endTime":1274.205,"body":"this minute detailed level, more detailed"},{"startTime":1274.205,"endTime":1279.245,"body":"than any actual government would dare to"},{"startTime":1274.205,"endTime":1279.245,"body":"try to exercise our control of our lives."},{"startTime":1280.475,"endTime":1281.554,"body":"There's a difference, right?"},{"startTime":1281.554,"endTime":1285.814,"body":"Because your boss can't throw"},{"startTime":1281.554,"endTime":1285.814,"body":"you in jail or kill you."},{"startTime":1285.814,"endTime":1288.425,"body":"So why do we have to obey them?"},{"startTime":1288.425,"endTime":1293.014,"body":"What means do they have at their"},{"startTime":1288.425,"endTime":1293.014,"body":"disposal to exercise control over."},{"startTime":1293.825,"endTime":1300.514,"body":"Well, there's the penalty of being"},{"startTime":1293.825,"endTime":1300.514,"body":"fired sometimes being demoted, uh,"},{"startTime":1300.544,"endTime":1305.794,"body":"often enough just being yelled at for"},{"startTime":1300.544,"endTime":1305.794,"body":"not doing, you know, for not working"},{"startTime":1305.794,"endTime":1310.415,"body":"hard enough or whatever, and not doing"},{"startTime":1305.794,"endTime":1310.415,"body":"things precisely as the boss wants."},{"startTime":1311.225,"endTime":1311.585,"body":"And how"},{"startTime":1311.585,"endTime":1317.855,"body":"does all that stuff blink back to"},{"startTime":1311.585,"endTime":1317.855,"body":"the concept of private unaccountable?"},{"startTime":1318.815,"endTime":1322.355,"body":"Well, that that is a consequence"},{"startTime":1318.815,"endTime":1322.355,"body":"of private government, right?"},{"startTime":1322.415,"endTime":1326.165,"body":"The Amazon workers, even if they're"},{"startTime":1322.415,"endTime":1326.165,"body":"guaranteed a 15 minute break,"},{"startTime":1326.165,"endTime":1327.545,"body":"those warehouses are so big."},{"startTime":1327.575,"endTime":1329.795,"body":"They don't even have time"},{"startTime":1327.575,"endTime":1329.795,"body":"to get to the bathroom."},{"startTime":1329.795,"endTime":1332.105,"body":"And then it's not a real break"},{"startTime":1329.795,"endTime":1332.105,"body":"if your whole time is just"},{"startTime":1332.105,"endTime":1334.505,"body":"running to try to use the toilet."},{"startTime":1335.465,"endTime":1335.825,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1335.825,"endTime":1341.315,"body":"And so some of them end up having to pee"},{"startTime":1335.825,"endTime":1341.315,"body":"in bottles, same with truckers, right?"},{"startTime":1341.315,"endTime":1343.205,"body":"They're under such an intense schedule."},{"startTime":1343.475,"endTime":1345.875,"body":"You know, Amazon delivery people."},{"startTime":1347.135,"endTime":1349.235,"body":"That they, uh, they don't have time."},{"startTime":1349.265,"endTime":1350.975,"body":"I mean, it's humiliating."},{"startTime":1351.005,"endTime":1353.855,"body":"It's undignified to be forced to do that."},{"startTime":1354.365,"endTime":1356.285,"body":"I think that's a really interesting point."},{"startTime":1356.285,"endTime":1361.595,"body":"So these unaccountable forms of private"},{"startTime":1356.285,"endTime":1361.595,"body":"government, they don't just result"},{"startTime":1361.655,"endTime":1367.025,"body":"in practices that are really bad for"},{"startTime":1361.655,"endTime":1367.025,"body":"workers, the terrible working conditions."},{"startTime":1367.325,"endTime":1367.535,"body":"It's."},{"startTime":1368.555,"endTime":1371.675,"body":"Humiliating kind of"},{"startTime":1368.555,"endTime":1371.675,"body":"degrading to work under these"},{"startTime":1371.675,"endTime":1372.215,"body":"conditions."},{"startTime":1372.274,"endTime":1373.235,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1373.475,"endTime":1375.965,"body":"And also just being"},{"startTime":1373.475,"endTime":1375.965,"body":"yelled at all the time."},{"startTime":1378.034,"endTime":1378.935,"body":"It's really bad."},{"startTime":1378.935,"endTime":1383.795,"body":"I mean, a lot of bosses are very"},{"startTime":1378.935,"endTime":1383.795,"body":"verbally abusive, emotionally abusive,"},{"startTime":1384.485,"endTime":1386.945,"body":"and they wouldn't be able"},{"startTime":1384.485,"endTime":1386.945,"body":"to get away with this."},{"startTime":1387.365,"endTime":1388.235,"body":"If,"},{"startTime":1388.685,"endTime":1394.925,"body":"if workers had a union or some"},{"startTime":1388.685,"endTime":1394.925,"body":"other voice in the workplace, right."},{"startTime":1396.635,"endTime":1396.875,"body":"What"},{"startTime":1396.875,"endTime":1400.745,"body":"I'm, what I'm getting at is that I"},{"startTime":1396.875,"endTime":1400.745,"body":"am very sympathetic to this view, but"},{"startTime":1400.985,"endTime":1407.435,"body":"to take the view of a libertarian, I"},{"startTime":1400.985,"endTime":1407.435,"body":"might say, Hey, look, these conditions"},{"startTime":1407.495,"endTime":1410.975,"body":"are not really so bad after all."},{"startTime":1411.425,"endTime":1415.085,"body":"If I'm a Amazon boss, I could say"},{"startTime":1411.425,"endTime":1415.085,"body":"there's some of the best wages"},{"startTime":1415.085,"endTime":1416.735,"body":"for unskilled workers in the area."},{"startTime":1417.065,"endTime":1418.475,"body":"People are free to work there."},{"startTime":1418.475,"endTime":1420.365,"body":"They're free to quit at any time."},{"startTime":1420.755,"endTime":1422.845,"body":"So if they don't like."},{"startTime":1423.995,"endTime":1425.375,"body":"It's not a violation of their freedom."},{"startTime":1425.375,"endTime":1426.845,"body":"They could just go get another job."},{"startTime":1427.865,"endTime":1430.565,"body":"Um, so what would you say to that?"},{"startTime":1430.565,"endTime":1431.015,"body":"Objection?"},{"startTime":1431.735,"endTime":1434.165,"body":"Well, a couple of things, what is that?"},{"startTime":1434.165,"endTime":1436.055,"body":"Exit might not be so easy."},{"startTime":1436.235,"endTime":1443.345,"body":"So a lot of firms make you, uh, sign a"},{"startTime":1436.235,"endTime":1443.345,"body":"contract, a non-compete agreement, which"},{"startTime":1443.345,"endTime":1449.075,"body":"means that if you quit your job, you"},{"startTime":1443.345,"endTime":1449.075,"body":"can't be employed in the same market."},{"startTime":1450.2,"endTime":1452.48,"body":"Uh, for maybe, you know, several years."},{"startTime":1452.78,"endTime":1453.17,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1453.29,"endTime":1457.34,"body":"So they basically now have"},{"startTime":1453.29,"endTime":1457.34,"body":"kidnapped your human capital,"},{"startTime":1457.37,"endTime":1460.01,"body":"your skills in that industry."},{"startTime":1460.04,"endTime":1462.11,"body":"And you've got to do"},{"startTime":1460.04,"endTime":1462.11,"body":"something else entirely."},{"startTime":1462.2,"endTime":1462.92,"body":"So you have to return"},{"startTime":1463.31,"endTime":1467.69,"body":"are those surely, surely an"},{"startTime":1463.31,"endTime":1467.69,"body":"Amazon warehouse worker can"},{"startTime":1467.69,"endTime":1468.68,"body":"go work in another warehouse."},{"startTime":1468.74,"endTime":1468.98,"body":"Now"},{"startTime":1468.99,"endTime":1470.51,"body":"it is true in Amazon."},{"startTime":1470.51,"endTime":1471.02,"body":"That's true."},{"startTime":1471.02,"endTime":1474.65,"body":"But we have, you know,"},{"startTime":1471.02,"endTime":1474.65,"body":"Jimmy John's sandwich maker."},{"startTime":1476.18,"endTime":1476.48,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1476.48,"endTime":1477.99,"body":"Like you can't,"},{"startTime":1478.01,"endTime":1480.47,"body":"you can't go to subway after Jimmy John's"},{"startTime":1481.61,"endTime":1482.24,"body":"officially."},{"startTime":1482.24,"endTime":1484.43,"body":"No, you've signed a non-compete agreement."},{"startTime":1484.43,"endTime":1485.36,"body":"It's ridiculous."},{"startTime":1485.36,"endTime":1485.6,"body":"What?"},{"startTime":1485.6,"endTime":1490.91,"body":"You can't make sandwiches at another"},{"startTime":1485.6,"endTime":1490.91,"body":"place, or even like summer camps."},{"startTime":1490.94,"endTime":1494.6,"body":"Like you can't be a summer summer"},{"startTime":1490.94,"endTime":1494.6,"body":"camp counselor at a different camp."},{"startTime":1494.63,"endTime":1496.19,"body":"I mean, summer"},{"startTime":1496.19,"endTime":1498.74,"body":"camps that is astonishing to me."},{"startTime":1498.74,"endTime":1499.64,"body":"This is for teenagers."},{"startTime":1499.64,"endTime":1500.3,"body":"Isn't it like."},{"startTime":1501.71,"endTime":1504.71,"body":"If they're far more pervasive"},{"startTime":1501.71,"endTime":1504.71,"body":"than you might think."},{"startTime":1505.04,"endTime":1505.58,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1505.94,"endTime":1510.5,"body":"And of course, in the tech industry,"},{"startTime":1505.94,"endTime":1510.5,"body":"outside of California, where they banned"},{"startTime":1510.53,"endTime":1516.59,"body":"non-compete agreements, but in most"},{"startTime":1510.53,"endTime":1516.59,"body":"other states, the tech industry and"},{"startTime":1516.59,"endTime":1519.02,"body":"even doctors are under nine competes."},{"startTime":1519.53,"endTime":1520.01,"body":"Then"},{"startTime":1520.31,"endTime":1520.64,"body":"why not?"},{"startTime":1520.64,"endTime":1524.27,"body":"Just, if I see a non-compete clause"},{"startTime":1520.64,"endTime":1524.27,"body":"in my contract, why do I take the."},{"startTime":1526.175,"endTime":1528.575,"body":"To me, the free market argument."},{"startTime":1528.605,"endTime":1532.385,"body":"It's going to say that employers"},{"startTime":1528.605,"endTime":1532.385,"body":"will offer contracts that are good"},{"startTime":1532.385,"endTime":1534.515,"body":"enough to get people, to take them."},{"startTime":1534.875,"endTime":1537.455,"body":"And it's just an offer, right?"},{"startTime":1537.635,"endTime":1539.015,"body":"People are free to take"},{"startTime":1537.635,"endTime":1539.015,"body":"them or leave them."},{"startTime":1539.015,"endTime":1544.895,"body":"So why does offering a bad job"},{"startTime":1539.015,"endTime":1544.895,"body":"to someone violate their freedom"},{"startTime":1544.895,"endTime":1546.485,"body":"when they don't have to accept it?"},{"startTime":1546.755,"endTime":1551.495,"body":"Because we have to think about the"},{"startTime":1546.755,"endTime":1551.495,"body":"role of the state in according such"},{"startTime":1551.495,"endTime":1553.925,"body":"power to employers in the first place."},{"startTime":1555.365,"endTime":1560.465,"body":"So what does it even make it possible for"},{"startTime":1555.365,"endTime":1560.465,"body":"them to insist on a non-compete agreement?"},{"startTime":1561.335,"endTime":1566.075,"body":"It's it's because the state has"},{"startTime":1561.335,"endTime":1566.075,"body":"handed them all the chips in"},{"startTime":1566.465,"endTime":1569.705,"body":"bargaining power relative to workers."},{"startTime":1570.035,"endTime":1571.205,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1571.235,"endTime":1575.525,"body":"And so in a way that the state has"},{"startTime":1571.235,"endTime":1575.525,"body":"already put its thumbs on the scale"},{"startTime":1575.525,"endTime":1577.715,"body":"to give employers this kind of power."},{"startTime":1579.365,"endTime":1584.555,"body":"But the state should I, I think that"},{"startTime":1579.365,"endTime":1584.555,"body":"the state should rebalance the scales."},{"startTime":1585.245,"endTime":1585.575,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1585.575,"endTime":1586.235,"body":"So how, yeah."},{"startTime":1586.265,"endTime":1586.895,"body":"How do we do that?"},{"startTime":1587.195,"endTime":1593.195,"body":"What, well, I mean, California has"},{"startTime":1587.195,"endTime":1593.195,"body":"banned non-compete agreements, you"},{"startTime":1593.195,"endTime":1595.595,"body":"know, it, this resettled destroyed tech."},{"startTime":1595.625,"endTime":1596.645,"body":"Well, I'm sorry."},{"startTime":1596.645,"endTime":1599.255,"body":"You know, tech is very,"},{"startTime":1596.645,"endTime":1599.255,"body":"very strike in California."},{"startTime":1599.255,"endTime":1602.465,"body":"It hasn't really been damaged"},{"startTime":1599.255,"endTime":1602.465,"body":"by not what was the argument"},{"startTime":1602.495,"endTime":1605.825,"body":"for, for getting rid"},{"startTime":1602.495,"endTime":1605.825,"body":"of those with district?"},{"startTime":1607.97,"endTime":1612.74,"body":"Well, they thought that, you know,"},{"startTime":1607.97,"endTime":1612.74,"body":"unless we have control over our talent,"},{"startTime":1613.34,"endTime":1619.4,"body":"that they can take, you know, ideas"},{"startTime":1613.34,"endTime":1619.4,"body":"that they've been developing at one"},{"startTime":1619.4,"endTime":1621.23,"body":"firm and bring them to another firm."},{"startTime":1621.92,"endTime":1622.22,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1622.28,"endTime":1625.61,"body":"And they're explained that this is"},{"startTime":1622.28,"endTime":1625.61,"body":"all their intellectual property."},{"startTime":1626.09,"endTime":1626.36,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1627.11,"endTime":1628.4,"body":"That's sort of the theory."},{"startTime":1629.51,"endTime":1629.93,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1630.05,"endTime":1632.99,"body":"So we want to get rid of"},{"startTime":1630.05,"endTime":1632.99,"body":"non-compete contracts and."},{"startTime":1633.725,"endTime":1636.274,"body":"All sorts of bad workplace conditions."},{"startTime":1636.605,"endTime":1642.125,"body":"And the reason they exist is because"},{"startTime":1636.605,"endTime":1642.125,"body":"of private government, because bosses"},{"startTime":1642.155,"endTime":1644.314,"body":"are unaccountable to their workers."},{"startTime":1644.585,"endTime":1649.625,"body":"And we know that we solve the problem"},{"startTime":1644.585,"endTime":1649.625,"body":"of private government in, in the"},{"startTime":1649.625,"endTime":1651.544,"body":"state sector by having democracy."},{"startTime":1651.574,"endTime":1651.845,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1651.845,"endTime":1654.425,"body":"We, we get rid of the Monarch"},{"startTime":1651.845,"endTime":1654.425,"body":"and we, we have democracy."},{"startTime":1654.425,"endTime":1659.465,"body":"So how do we solve the problem of"},{"startTime":1654.425,"endTime":1659.465,"body":"private government in the world?"},{"startTime":1660.905,"endTime":1661.205,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1661.205,"endTime":1665.435,"body":"So my biggest argument is we"},{"startTime":1661.205,"endTime":1665.435,"body":"should bring in code determination."},{"startTime":1666.485,"endTime":1672.274,"body":"So that's, that's a model that was"},{"startTime":1666.485,"endTime":1672.274,"body":"developed in Europe, primarily in Germany."},{"startTime":1672.274,"endTime":1677.225,"body":"They did the most experimentation on"},{"startTime":1672.274,"endTime":1677.225,"body":"this even before world war II, but"},{"startTime":1677.254,"endTime":1679.445,"body":"more importantly after world war II."},{"startTime":1680.165,"endTime":1686.044,"body":"Um, the basic idea is that once a"},{"startTime":1680.165,"endTime":1686.044,"body":"corporation hits a certain number of"},{"startTime":1686.044,"endTime":1689.254,"body":"employees, it has to let workers into."},{"startTime":1690.784,"endTime":1696.635,"body":"So cottage termination means joint"},{"startTime":1690.784,"endTime":1696.635,"body":"management by workers and the"},{"startTime":1696.635,"endTime":1699.185,"body":"representatives of the investors."},{"startTime":1699.815,"endTime":1700.115,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1700.145,"endTime":1705.155,"body":"Which would be from the managerial"},{"startTime":1700.145,"endTime":1705.155,"body":"sector, but they would jointly manage"},{"startTime":1705.245,"endTime":1708.095,"body":"the shop floor, the conditions."},{"startTime":1708.725,"endTime":1709.024,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1709.055,"endTime":1711.905,"body":"And so there's certain stuff"},{"startTime":1709.055,"endTime":1711.905,"body":"that happens in America."},{"startTime":1711.905,"endTime":1713.585,"body":"That is absolutely unknown."},{"startTime":1714.935,"endTime":1717.125,"body":"In, in Germany and France,"},{"startTime":1717.245,"endTime":1718.325,"body":"give us some examples."},{"startTime":1718.415,"endTime":1719.105,"body":"I'm Canadian."},{"startTime":1719.105,"endTime":1720.455,"body":"We love to hear how awful it is."},{"startTime":1720.785,"endTime":1721.865,"body":"Oh, it's like, oh yeah."},{"startTime":1721.895,"endTime":1723.245,"body":"Canada is like way better."},{"startTime":1723.305,"endTime":1724.445,"body":"It's unbelievable."},{"startTime":1724.445,"endTime":1731.675,"body":"America is this insanely wealthy country"},{"startTime":1724.445,"endTime":1731.675,"body":"and their American exceptionalism"},{"startTime":1731.675,"endTime":1735.365,"body":"is a real thing in a sense, but"},{"startTime":1731.675,"endTime":1735.365,"body":"not in the way Americans think, oh,"},{"startTime":1735.395,"endTime":1737.285,"body":"like rah, rah, we're uniquely great."},{"startTime":1737.495,"endTime":1742.475,"body":"Now in fact, American labor"},{"startTime":1737.495,"endTime":1742.475,"body":"conditions are off the charts."},{"startTime":1742.475,"endTime":1743.315,"body":"Worse."},{"startTime":1744.215,"endTime":1751.625,"body":"Then every other peer country in the"},{"startTime":1744.215,"endTime":1751.625,"body":"world, there's no right to paid vacations."},{"startTime":1752.315,"endTime":1756.455,"body":"You know, in France, you get, you"},{"startTime":1752.315,"endTime":1756.455,"body":"get the whole month of August off in"},{"startTime":1756.455,"endTime":1763.265,"body":"Denmark, you get five weeks off, paid"},{"startTime":1756.455,"endTime":1763.265,"body":"vacation guaranteed in the Netherlands."},{"startTime":1763.895,"endTime":1767.225,"body":"You get the government will"},{"startTime":1763.895,"endTime":1767.225,"body":"actually stick a few thousand"},{"startTime":1767.225,"endTime":1769.355,"body":"dollars in your bank account."},{"startTime":1771.29,"endTime":1773.54,"body":"It's just so that you"},{"startTime":1771.29,"endTime":1773.54,"body":"can afford a vacation."},{"startTime":1775.04,"endTime":1775.34,"body":"Sounds"},{"startTime":1775.34,"endTime":1775.73,"body":"great."},{"startTime":1775.79,"endTime":1776.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1777.29,"endTime":1780.29,"body":"Every place where this exists,"},{"startTime":1777.29,"endTime":1780.29,"body":"people really like it a lot,"},{"startTime":1783.08,"endTime":1786.26,"body":"but also, but maybe that's why America"},{"startTime":1783.08,"endTime":1786.26,"body":"is so rich, you know, the hustle."},{"startTime":1788.285,"endTime":1794.645,"body":"Yeah, but who has all that money is the"},{"startTime":1788.285,"endTime":1794.645,"body":"question it's generally not the workers."},{"startTime":1796.805,"endTime":1802.685,"body":"And so I was actually, I have a friend"},{"startTime":1796.805,"endTime":1802.685,"body":"who is an engineer and, you know,"},{"startTime":1802.685,"endTime":1804.455,"body":"he's working in the United States."},{"startTime":1804.965,"endTime":1808.504,"body":"Uh, but he, he worked at a German"},{"startTime":1804.965,"endTime":1808.504,"body":"engineering company for awhile."},{"startTime":1809.405,"endTime":1811.235,"body":"And I asked him, you know,"},{"startTime":1809.405,"endTime":1811.235,"body":"what was he different?"},{"startTime":1811.235,"endTime":1812.284,"body":"So think about it."},{"startTime":1812.284,"endTime":1817.085,"body":"Engineers are very well paid, you"},{"startTime":1812.284,"endTime":1817.085,"body":"know, and have a lot of prestige,"},{"startTime":1817.445,"endTime":1819.004,"body":"you know, in the United States."},{"startTime":1819.905,"endTime":1823.445,"body":"But I knew that in Germany, they"},{"startTime":1819.905,"endTime":1823.445,"body":"have coded termination and I"},{"startTime":1823.445,"endTime":1826.774,"body":"said, did coded termination make"},{"startTime":1823.445,"endTime":1826.774,"body":"a difference in your work life?"},{"startTime":1827.135,"endTime":1828.995,"body":"And he said, it was unbelievable."},{"startTime":1831.754,"endTime":1834.544,"body":"They really respect us in Germany."},{"startTime":1836.085,"endTime":1838.745,"body":"Like he had to experience this before."},{"startTime":1838.745,"endTime":1841.895,"body":"I mean, he thought like, it's"},{"startTime":1838.745,"endTime":1841.895,"body":"kind of like a fish in water."},{"startTime":1841.895,"endTime":1843.905,"body":"Like they not even aware of the water."},{"startTime":1844.145,"endTime":1844.385,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1844.865,"endTime":1848.495,"body":"And finally it, he goes to Germany"},{"startTime":1844.865,"endTime":1848.495,"body":"and he sees how much respect the"},{"startTime":1848.495,"endTime":1854.915,"body":"engineers have compared to say"},{"startTime":1848.495,"endTime":1854.915,"body":"engineers at Boeing who kept on telling."},{"startTime":1855.83,"endTime":1859.399,"body":"You know, they're working on the Boeing"},{"startTime":1855.83,"endTime":1859.399,"body":"max and they kept on telling management,"},{"startTime":1859.399,"endTime":1862.25,"body":"Hey, this, this airplane is dangerous."},{"startTime":1862.25,"endTime":1863.33,"body":"It's not ready to ship."},{"startTime":1863.36,"endTime":1866.3,"body":"We have to fix a lot of things"},{"startTime":1863.36,"endTime":1866.3,"body":"or else it's going to crash."},{"startTime":1866.78,"endTime":1868.79,"body":"And management just said, shut up."},{"startTime":1868.82,"endTime":1872.449,"body":"None of your business, we got to ship"},{"startTime":1868.82,"endTime":1872.449,"body":"these planes, meet your deadline."},{"startTime":1872.48,"endTime":1874.189,"body":"We don't care about your complaints."},{"startTime":1874.189,"endTime":1878.719,"body":"It's our, you know, our decision"},{"startTime":1874.189,"endTime":1878.719,"body":"and the truth is, is that"},{"startTime":1878.719,"endTime":1879.949,"body":"when those planes crashed."},{"startTime":1882.08,"endTime":1886.1,"body":"The workers, the engineers"},{"startTime":1882.08,"endTime":1886.1,"body":"were absolutely traumatized."},{"startTime":1886.46,"endTime":1888.8,"body":"You should have read their responses."},{"startTime":1888.8,"endTime":1892.97,"body":"When the New York times broke the"},{"startTime":1888.8,"endTime":1892.97,"body":"story of the Boeing Mack max crash."},{"startTime":1893.06,"endTime":1897.14,"body":"I remember reading it intently, the"},{"startTime":1893.06,"endTime":1897.14,"body":"comments which are coming in from"},{"startTime":1897.14,"endTime":1904.55,"body":"Boeing engineers saying basically that"},{"startTime":1897.14,"endTime":1904.55,"body":"they feel that they are, they've been"},{"startTime":1904.55,"endTime":1908.66,"body":"betrayed by the corporation because they"},{"startTime":1904.55,"endTime":1908.66,"body":"wanted to do a good job on this point."},{"startTime":1909.425,"endTime":1912.095,"body":"And they were just told to"},{"startTime":1909.425,"endTime":1912.095,"body":"meet deadlines and shut up."},{"startTime":1912.425,"endTime":1918.365,"body":"They, they felt traumatized by being"},{"startTime":1912.425,"endTime":1918.365,"body":"ringed into an enterprise that they"},{"startTime":1918.365,"endTime":1920.705,"body":"knew was gonna like kill people."},{"startTime":1921.245,"endTime":1922.325,"body":"They don't want to do that."},{"startTime":1923.855,"endTime":1924.215,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1925.385,"endTime":1927.635,"body":"And in Germany that would never happen."},{"startTime":1928.385,"endTime":1931.175,"body":"It's not just that they have"},{"startTime":1928.385,"endTime":1931.175,"body":"a better regulatory regime."},{"startTime":1931.175,"endTime":1934.115,"body":"It's set the workers wouldn't they"},{"startTime":1931.175,"endTime":1934.115,"body":"wouldn't put up with stuff like"},{"startTime":1934.385,"endTime":1935.645,"body":"coded termination means that they have."},{"startTime":1936.665,"endTime":1939.425,"body":"In the decisions and they"},{"startTime":1936.665,"endTime":1939.425,"body":"would've never that's right."},{"startTime":1939.574,"endTime":1940.235,"body":"I love that happen."},{"startTime":1940.774,"endTime":1945.034,"body":"Um, actually I would like to"},{"startTime":1940.774,"endTime":1945.034,"body":"bring this back to the conceptual"},{"startTime":1945.034,"endTime":1947.465,"body":"distinction you're making between"},{"startTime":1945.034,"endTime":1947.465,"body":"private and public government,"},{"startTime":1948.215,"endTime":1950.945,"body":"because what is the difference?"},{"startTime":1950.945,"endTime":1954.274,"body":"Conceptually, when we have code"},{"startTime":1950.945,"endTime":1954.274,"body":"determination, when workers do have a"},{"startTime":1954.274,"endTime":1960.05,"body":"say, that makes it, uh, You know, it's,"},{"startTime":1954.274,"endTime":1960.05,"body":"it's not private government anymore."},{"startTime":1960.08,"endTime":1962.78,"body":"It's not the kind of Ty"},{"startTime":1960.08,"endTime":1962.78,"body":"radical rule by bosses."},{"startTime":1963.08,"endTime":1963.24,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1963.24,"endTime":1963.38,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1963.44,"endTime":1963.74,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1963.77,"endTime":1970.82,"body":"Because it's precisely that workers"},{"startTime":1963.77,"endTime":1970.82,"body":"have a voice in whatever roles"},{"startTime":1971.36,"endTime":1972.77,"body":"are going to govern them at work."},{"startTime":1974.0,"endTime":1974.39,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1974.51,"endTime":1980.0,"body":"And they can change those rules"},{"startTime":1974.51,"endTime":1980.0,"body":"because conditions on the shop"},{"startTime":1980.0,"endTime":1985.58,"body":"floor or the outcome of the, of"},{"startTime":1980.0,"endTime":1985.58,"body":"basically some kind of consensus."},{"startTime":1986.615,"endTime":1991.985,"body":"Between the representatives of the"},{"startTime":1986.615,"endTime":1991.985,"body":"investors and the workers themselves."},{"startTime":1992.555,"endTime":1995.705,"body":"And if the workers don't like their"},{"startTime":1992.555,"endTime":1995.705,"body":"own representatives, they can boot"},{"startTime":1995.705,"endTime":1997.745,"body":"them out and elect new representatives."},{"startTime":1999.695,"endTime":2005.395,"body":"If this is, if, as you say, there's"},{"startTime":1999.695,"endTime":2005.395,"body":"American exceptionalism and these kinds of"},{"startTime":2005.395,"endTime":2010.255,"body":"working conditions are unheard of in the"},{"startTime":2005.395,"endTime":2010.255,"body":"rest of the developed world, why is that?"},{"startTime":2011.275,"endTime":2012.505,"body":"Well, what are you guys thinking?"},{"startTime":2012.505,"endTime":2015.535,"body":"Like why, why, why in America?"},{"startTime":2015.535,"endTime":2018.025,"body":"Do people believe in this"},{"startTime":2015.535,"endTime":2018.025,"body":"more than any anywhere else?"},{"startTime":2018.055,"endTime":2021.955,"body":"Even though look, it's exaggerating"},{"startTime":2018.055,"endTime":2021.955,"body":"because in the UK, in Canada, there's very"},{"startTime":2021.955,"endTime":2024.085,"body":"strong libertarian ideological strengths."},{"startTime":2024.775,"endTime":2025.825,"body":"Oh yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":2025.825,"endTime":2031.375,"body":"But America's really the"},{"startTime":2025.825,"endTime":2031.375,"body":"home run sporting, right?"},{"startTime":2031.375,"endTime":2033.925,"body":"America export society,"},{"startTime":2031.375,"endTime":2033.925,"body":"allergy to other kinds."},{"startTime":2035.679,"endTime":2038.649,"body":"I mean, frankly, I just have"},{"startTime":2035.679,"endTime":2038.649,"body":"to say that I'm shocked."},{"startTime":2038.979,"endTime":2042.76,"body":"You know, here I am in Michigan"},{"startTime":2038.979,"endTime":2042.76,"body":"and Canada's really just next door."},{"startTime":2042.76,"endTime":2050.739,"body":"It's only a few miles away and I'm shocked"},{"startTime":2042.76,"endTime":2050.739,"body":"by some of the stuff that Canadian swallow"},{"startTime":2050.739,"endTime":2053.23,"body":"that's been exported by the United States."},{"startTime":2053.739,"endTime":2057.4,"body":"Oh, we have, we have, what I"},{"startTime":2053.739,"endTime":2057.4,"body":"tell people is that, you know,"},{"startTime":2057.4,"endTime":2058.81,"body":"Americans like, oh, Canada's nice."},{"startTime":2058.81,"endTime":2059.139,"body":"It's better."},{"startTime":2059.19,"endTime":2060.049,"body":"It's not."},{"startTime":2061.449,"endTime":2063.339,"body":"Everything that's dumb about America."},{"startTime":2063.37,"endTime":2067.659,"body":"We also have, we just do it"},{"startTime":2063.37,"endTime":2067.659,"body":"at like smaller scale and"},{"startTime":2067.659,"endTime":2068.949,"body":"with less self-confidence."},{"startTime":2073.0,"endTime":2078.37,"body":"You had a leader who wanted to"},{"startTime":2073.0,"endTime":2078.37,"body":"import America's carceral state."},{"startTime":2078.85,"endTime":2079.15,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2079.719,"endTime":2084.73,"body":"I know what it's like, just as Americans"},{"startTime":2079.719,"endTime":2084.73,"body":"realizing what an unmitigated catastrophe"},{"startTime":2084.73,"endTime":2086.379,"body":"it is, Canada starting to think."},{"startTime":2086.6,"endTime":2088.06,"body":"Maybe it's a good idea to jam"},{"startTime":2088.6,"endTime":2092.71,"body":"the scale less self-confidence and"},{"startTime":2088.6,"endTime":2092.71,"body":"like five to 10, 20 years later."},{"startTime":2094.81,"endTime":2097.299,"body":"But really you just look, you"},{"startTime":2094.81,"endTime":2097.299,"body":"just look south of the border."},{"startTime":2097.299,"endTime":2098.74,"body":"You see what a disaster it's."},{"startTime":2099.835,"endTime":2100.315,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2100.555,"endTime":2106.285,"body":"Um, but why this whole Adam"},{"startTime":2100.555,"endTime":2106.285,"body":"Smith, uh, independent producer"},{"startTime":2106.285,"endTime":2110.125,"body":"utopia that kind of disappeared"},{"startTime":2106.285,"endTime":2110.125,"body":"in Europe, in the 19th century."},{"startTime":2110.335,"endTime":2110.695,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2110.695,"endTime":2115.945,"body":"So in fact it like, yes, I mean"},{"startTime":2110.695,"endTime":2115.945,"body":"the industrial revolution wiped"},{"startTime":2115.945,"endTime":2117.655,"body":"out the small proprietors."},{"startTime":2118.615,"endTime":2118.925,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2119.405,"endTime":2125.575,"body":"But, and enclosures, and Angland wiped"},{"startTime":2119.405,"endTime":2125.575,"body":"out the yeoman farmers as well, but we'll"},{"startTime":2125.585,"endTime":2126.985,"body":"industrialization in America."},{"startTime":2127.689,"endTime":2131.56,"body":"Wiped out the omen of farmers as"},{"startTime":2127.689,"endTime":2131.56,"body":"well in the small proprietors."},{"startTime":2131.56,"endTime":2137.2,"body":"You now have corporate America,"},{"startTime":2131.56,"endTime":2137.2,"body":"but you've cut the ideology tied."},{"startTime":2137.649,"endTime":2138.91,"body":"So why doesn't your dream die?"},{"startTime":2141.04,"endTime":2142.27,"body":"You know, you really should."},{"startTime":2142.299,"endTime":2145.45,"body":"There's, uh, there's a"},{"startTime":2142.299,"endTime":2145.45,"body":"really great podcast."},{"startTime":2145.87,"endTime":2150.46,"body":"It's called the dream season one."},{"startTime":2150.67,"endTime":2152.859,"body":"It's about multi-level marketing."},{"startTime":2152.98,"endTime":2153.64,"body":"Nice."},{"startTime":2153.7,"endTime":2154.089,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2154.089,"endTime":2159.009,"body":"It's like a huge scam, but why, but"},{"startTime":2154.089,"endTime":2159.009,"body":"millions of Americans fall for it, right?"},{"startTime":2159.009,"endTime":2162.069,"body":"The dream is self-employment right."},{"startTime":2162.19,"endTime":2163.839,"body":"You'll be free of the boss."},{"startTime":2164.35,"endTime":2169.299,"body":"You'll run your own business and you'll"},{"startTime":2164.35,"endTime":2169.299,"body":"get rich and be able to retire early."},{"startTime":2169.299,"endTime":2170.29,"body":"That's the only"},{"startTime":2170.29,"endTime":2172.509,"body":"form of self-employment"},{"startTime":2170.29,"endTime":2172.509,"body":"available is ripping off your."},{"startTime":2173.485,"endTime":2176.905,"body":"Well, they don't see it that way, but yes,"},{"startTime":2173.485,"endTime":2176.905,"body":"in practice, that's what it amounts to."},{"startTime":2176.905,"endTime":2179.725,"body":"But the truth is that it's"},{"startTime":2176.905,"endTime":2179.725,"body":"not just, you're ripping off."},{"startTime":2179.725,"endTime":2185.155,"body":"Your neighbor was spent, you yourself"},{"startTime":2179.725,"endTime":2185.155,"body":"are getting scammed right now."},{"startTime":2185.155,"endTime":2188.485,"body":"Of course we have not just multi-level"},{"startTime":2185.155,"endTime":2188.485,"body":"marketing, but every other get"},{"startTime":2189.355,"endTime":2193.435,"body":"rich, quick scheme, like, you know,"},{"startTime":2189.355,"endTime":2193.435,"body":"investing in cryptocurrency where"},{"startTime":2193.435,"endTime":2195.865,"body":"also you get scammed, but right."},{"startTime":2196.165,"endTime":2200.665,"body":"People are, Americans are"},{"startTime":2196.165,"endTime":2200.665,"body":"constantly running after this"},{"startTime":2200.665,"endTime":2202.555,"body":"dream of self-employment because."},{"startTime":2203.545,"endTime":2208.165,"body":"In fact, they, at some level they"},{"startTime":2203.545,"endTime":2208.165,"body":"understand that being a wage worker"},{"startTime":2208.165,"endTime":2211.045,"body":"doesn't get you anywhere, right."},{"startTime":2211.645,"endTime":2212.545,"body":"For the most part."},{"startTime":2212.815,"endTime":2217.105,"body":"So self-employment seems to be the"},{"startTime":2212.815,"endTime":2217.105,"body":"path to independence, to freedom."},{"startTime":2217.105,"endTime":2218.815,"body":"You you're your own boss."},{"startTime":2219.505,"endTime":2220.465,"body":"That's dream."},{"startTime":2220.795,"endTime":2225.085,"body":"So, and it's never really left"},{"startTime":2220.795,"endTime":2225.085,"body":"America even add to this become"},{"startTime":2225.085,"endTime":2227.095,"body":"less and less a realistic option."},{"startTime":2227.515,"endTime":2227.815,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2227.815,"endTime":2230.095,"body":"So this is my real question because."},{"startTime":2232.06,"endTime":2236.65,"body":"You have the kind of a independent"},{"startTime":2232.06,"endTime":2236.65,"body":"producer, free markets, utopia"},{"startTime":2236.74,"endTime":2238.48,"body":"idea in both Europe and America."},{"startTime":2238.81,"endTime":2242.29,"body":"And then you have the industrial"},{"startTime":2238.81,"endTime":2242.29,"body":"revolution because the reason you"},{"startTime":2242.29,"endTime":2246.22,"body":"want that egalitarian free market"},{"startTime":2242.29,"endTime":2246.22,"body":"libertarian thing is you hate feudalism."},{"startTime":2246.22,"endTime":2249.16,"body":"You hate being bossed around all the"},{"startTime":2246.22,"endTime":2249.16,"body":"time and having to balance grape."},{"startTime":2249.55,"endTime":2250.99,"body":"So we'll have a free market."},{"startTime":2251.26,"endTime":2254.41,"body":"You have a free market that produces"},{"startTime":2251.26,"endTime":2254.41,"body":"an industrial revolution, which"},{"startTime":2254.41,"endTime":2256.15,"body":"created, produces massive inequality."},{"startTime":2256.915,"endTime":2259.435,"body":"Which is a new kind of feudalism almost."},{"startTime":2259.435,"endTime":2263.575,"body":"Now these employees are in thrall"},{"startTime":2259.435,"endTime":2263.575,"body":"to capital, to their employers."},{"startTime":2263.845,"endTime":2267.655,"body":"Um, and so in Europe"},{"startTime":2263.845,"endTime":2267.655,"body":"they say, this is awful."},{"startTime":2267.715,"endTime":2272.245,"body":"Uh, I guess we'll do socialism"},{"startTime":2267.715,"endTime":2272.245,"body":"instead because this whole"},{"startTime":2272.245,"endTime":2275.275,"body":"liberalism, this free market stuff,"},{"startTime":2272.245,"endTime":2275.275,"body":"isn't working out the way we hoped."},{"startTime":2275.905,"endTime":2279.055,"body":"But in America, you guys just"},{"startTime":2275.905,"endTime":2279.055,"body":"keep say, no, no, no, this"},{"startTime":2279.055,"endTime":2280.135,"body":"is, we're just not doing it."},{"startTime":2280.135,"endTime":2280.345,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2280.345,"endTime":2281.665,"body":"We need more freedom of the market."},{"startTime":2282.7,"endTime":2290.65,"body":"Um, and so here's, here's how it's evolved"},{"startTime":2282.7,"endTime":2290.65,"body":"under sort of 21st century capitalism."},{"startTime":2290.83,"endTime":2292.81,"body":"So now we have gink workers, right?"},{"startTime":2292.87,"endTime":2293.38,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":2293.38,"endTime":2294.43,"body":"You already dependent."},{"startTime":2294.43,"endTime":2301.509,"body":"You're not, you're not like an Uber"},{"startTime":2294.43,"endTime":2301.509,"body":"driver or, you know, driving for"},{"startTime":2301.509,"endTime":2303.91,"body":"door dash, something like this."},{"startTime":2304.48,"endTime":2307.69,"body":"Now the reality is you"},{"startTime":2304.48,"endTime":2307.69,"body":"still are under that."},{"startTime":2307.69,"endTime":2309.94,"body":"My new control of the planet."},{"startTime":2311.305,"endTime":2315.055,"body":"Which dictates a million and a half"},{"startTime":2311.305,"endTime":2315.055,"body":"rules about how you conduct yourself."},{"startTime":2315.895,"endTime":2316.465,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2316.525,"endTime":2320.605,"body":"And do you even have to take"},{"startTime":2316.525,"endTime":2320.605,"body":"a certain number of rides?"},{"startTime":2320.635,"endTime":2323.815,"body":"Like the, the idea is at least"},{"startTime":2320.635,"endTime":2323.815,"body":"you have control over your own"},{"startTime":2323.815,"endTime":2326.935,"body":"time, but more and more, right."},{"startTime":2328.0,"endTime":2332.56,"body":"You need to be accepting more and more"},{"startTime":2328.0,"endTime":2332.56,"body":"rides for a company to make a profit."},{"startTime":2332.56,"endTime":2335.62,"body":"So, you know, you have less control"},{"startTime":2332.56,"endTime":2335.62,"body":"over your time than you might think,"},{"startTime":2336.31,"endTime":2340.36,"body":"and no control over your wages since"},{"startTime":2336.31,"endTime":2340.36,"body":"it's really Uber and Lyft and those"},{"startTime":2340.36,"endTime":2343.63,"body":"companies that determine how much you get."},{"startTime":2344.2,"endTime":2349.03,"body":"And it's some cases,"},{"startTime":2344.2,"endTime":2349.03,"body":"they even keep your tips."},{"startTime":2349.81,"endTime":2350.14,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2350.65,"endTime":2350.98,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2350.98,"endTime":2354.61,"body":"So it's a lot less, you don't really get"},{"startTime":2350.98,"endTime":2354.61,"body":"to dictate your own prices as you would."},{"startTime":2354.61,"endTime":2355.9,"body":"If you were an independent."},{"startTime":2358.194,"endTime":2361.674,"body":"And the same arrangements"},{"startTime":2358.194,"endTime":2361.674,"body":"happen all across the economy."},{"startTime":2361.944,"endTime":2368.995,"body":"So if you look, say at the typical farmer,"},{"startTime":2361.944,"endTime":2368.995,"body":"raising chickens, say, you know, they're"},{"startTime":2368.995,"endTime":2373.165,"body":"in a double-sided contract where they"},{"startTime":2368.995,"endTime":2373.165,"body":"have to buy all of their inputs from"},{"startTime":2373.165,"endTime":2378.165,"body":"some big ag company, including the little"},{"startTime":2373.165,"endTime":2378.165,"body":"chicks, and then they have to sell."},{"startTime":2379.105,"endTime":2381.505,"body":"Their output back to the same company."},{"startTime":2388.105,"endTime":2392.335,"body":"They have to sell their output back"},{"startTime":2388.105,"endTime":2392.335,"body":"to the same company on both ends."},{"startTime":2392.335,"endTime":2396.355,"body":"The prices are dictated to them"},{"startTime":2392.335,"endTime":2396.355,"body":"by the company they contract with."},{"startTime":2397.045,"endTime":2399.055,"body":"And they're assuming all the risks of."},{"startTime":2400.33,"endTime":2403.48,"body":"Bad weather or bird flu"},{"startTime":2400.33,"endTime":2403.48,"body":"or whatever it might be."},{"startTime":2404.32,"endTime":2404.62,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2404.62,"endTime":2407.32,"body":"They're taking all the risks"},{"startTime":2404.62,"endTime":2407.32,"body":"and they're barely making it."},{"startTime":2407.32,"endTime":2412.06,"body":"And they have to follow the minute"},{"startTime":2407.32,"endTime":2412.06,"body":"instructions of the big ag company about"},{"startTime":2412.06,"endTime":2418.09,"body":"how to raise the chickens and th the size"},{"startTime":2412.06,"endTime":2418.09,"body":"of the sheds that their house and stuff."},{"startTime":2418.3,"endTime":2422.92,"body":"So, in fact, you know, in reality, there,"},{"startTime":2418.3,"endTime":2422.92,"body":"they don't have any more freedom than an"},{"startTime":2422.92,"endTime":2425.74,"body":"employee, but it feels right because of."},{"startTime":2426.49,"endTime":2428.5,"body":"Legal nature of the contract."},{"startTime":2428.529,"endTime":2429.58,"body":"Oh, you're your own."},{"startTime":2429.609,"endTime":2431.529,"body":"You're in business for yourself."},{"startTime":2431.98,"endTime":2436.209,"body":"But in reality, they're still under"},{"startTime":2431.98,"endTime":2436.209,"body":"the thumb of the big ag company, right?"},{"startTime":2436.209,"endTime":2440.02,"body":"So the independent farmers, the"},{"startTime":2436.209,"endTime":2440.02,"body":"independent Uber drivers, you"},{"startTime":2440.02,"endTime":2442.81,"body":"are an independent contractor,"},{"startTime":2440.02,"endTime":2442.81,"body":"you're an entrepreneur."},{"startTime":2443.109,"endTime":2446.83,"body":"Um, but in fact, that's just an illusion."},{"startTime":2446.859,"endTime":2449.47,"body":"And in fact, they're cutting this"},{"startTime":2446.859,"endTime":2449.47,"body":"kind of like feeble, feudal, web"},{"startTime":2449.47,"endTime":2452.529,"body":"of authority on both ends where"},{"startTime":2449.47,"endTime":2452.529,"body":"they're completely controlled."},{"startTime":2452.919,"endTime":2453.52,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2454.66,"endTime":2455.68,"body":"Yeah, can"},{"startTime":2455.68,"endTime":2459.46,"body":"we introduce a little bit of a shorter"},{"startTime":2455.68,"endTime":2459.46,"body":"term historical dimension to this?"},{"startTime":2459.46,"endTime":2462.73,"body":"So we talked about a little bit"},{"startTime":2459.46,"endTime":2462.73,"body":"about, you know, how these ideas"},{"startTime":2462.73,"endTime":2465.22,"body":"came up in the 18th century."},{"startTime":2465.55,"endTime":2471.88,"body":"Uh, and this dream has stayed alive"},{"startTime":2465.55,"endTime":2471.88,"body":"in America, but it seems to me that"},{"startTime":2471.94,"endTime":2475.75,"body":"in the late seventies and eighties,"},{"startTime":2471.94,"endTime":2475.75,"body":"there was also a change, right?"},{"startTime":2475.75,"endTime":2482.05,"body":"So this libertarian ideology, was it"},{"startTime":2475.75,"endTime":2482.05,"body":"so strong throughout America's history?"},{"startTime":2482.74,"endTime":2489.1,"body":"Or was there an ideological shift,"},{"startTime":2482.74,"endTime":2489.1,"body":"um, in the past half century that has"},{"startTime":2489.1,"endTime":2492.16,"body":"made it even more than ever this way."},{"startTime":2493.029,"endTime":2499.0,"body":"So I think there was an ideological"},{"startTime":2493.029,"endTime":2499.0,"body":"shift against, you know,"},{"startTime":2499.0,"endTime":2501.91,"body":"freewheeling, libertarian capitalism."},{"startTime":2501.939,"endTime":2503.89,"body":"That place of unions is what I mean."},{"startTime":2504.549,"endTime":2504.779,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2504.779,"endTime":2505.24,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2505.33,"endTime":2505.899,"body":"I'll get there."},{"startTime":2507.399,"endTime":2508.0,"body":"So."},{"startTime":2509.904,"endTime":2514.105,"body":"Uh, you know, a cataclysmic mom and for"},{"startTime":2509.904,"endTime":2514.105,"body":"capitalism was the great depression."},{"startTime":2514.495,"endTime":2515.335,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2515.814,"endTime":2521.154,"body":"And that brought in a new deal,"},{"startTime":2515.814,"endTime":2521.154,"body":"massive state intervention, all kinds"},{"startTime":2521.154,"endTime":2524.335,"body":"of regulations of the employment"},{"startTime":2521.154,"endTime":2524.335,"body":"contract, like the fair labor"},{"startTime":2524.335,"endTime":2528.185,"body":"standards act, which dictated that"},{"startTime":2524.335,"endTime":2528.185,"body":"like worked with actually had to."},{"startTime":2529.18,"endTime":2535.629,"body":"Be paid in cash rather than a script that"},{"startTime":2529.18,"endTime":2535.629,"body":"could only be spent at the company store."},{"startTime":2535.66,"endTime":2539.41,"body":"Say, if you were a mine worker or"},{"startTime":2535.66,"endTime":2539.41,"body":"some other factory town, right."},{"startTime":2540.009,"endTime":2542.859,"body":"Give some workers afraid of at least"},{"startTime":2540.009,"endTime":2542.859,"body":"how they're going to spend their money."},{"startTime":2542.859,"endTime":2546.73,"body":"So they don't have to spend it at"},{"startTime":2542.859,"endTime":2546.73,"body":"some monopoly, shop run by their boss."},{"startTime":2547.48,"endTime":2547.899,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2548.2,"endTime":2556.629,"body":"And, um, you know, limitations on hours,"},{"startTime":2548.2,"endTime":2556.629,"body":"maximum hours over time, uh, minimum wage."},{"startTime":2557.875,"endTime":2558.415,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2558.445,"endTime":2563.755,"body":"Worker's got some rights and, you"},{"startTime":2558.445,"endTime":2563.755,"body":"know, ultimately the aspiration of"},{"startTime":2563.755,"endTime":2566.965,"body":"the new dealers was even to bring"},{"startTime":2563.755,"endTime":2566.965,"body":"in what they call the economic"},{"startTime":2566.965,"endTime":2570.805,"body":"democracy by way of labor unions."},{"startTime":2572.095,"endTime":2579.355,"body":"So labor unions picked right after"},{"startTime":2572.095,"endTime":2579.355,"body":"world war two, but the truth is that"},{"startTime":2579.355,"endTime":2584.065,"body":"the capital's class always hated"},{"startTime":2579.355,"endTime":2584.065,"body":"unions and they love the new deal."},{"startTime":2585.52,"endTime":2589.72,"body":"And at least a certain portion"},{"startTime":2585.52,"endTime":2589.72,"body":"of the capitalist class, right."},{"startTime":2589.99,"endTime":2595.96,"body":"And they started gathering steam"},{"startTime":2589.99,"endTime":2595.96,"body":"really around the seventies."},{"startTime":2595.96,"endTime":2598.75,"body":"And you could see a major"},{"startTime":2595.96,"endTime":2598.75,"body":"turn in the mid seventies."},{"startTime":2598.9,"endTime":2605.319,"body":"There's a lot of other reasons for this"},{"startTime":2598.9,"endTime":2605.319,"body":"post-war economic growth slowed down."},{"startTime":2606.31,"endTime":2611.2,"body":"Lots of things were happening even in"},{"startTime":2606.31,"endTime":2611.2,"body":"Europe rise of international competition."},{"startTime":2612.625,"endTime":2620.785,"body":"The energy crisis, um, all kinds of things"},{"startTime":2612.625,"endTime":2620.785,"body":"that were happening that weekend labor"},{"startTime":2620.785,"endTime":2625.915,"body":"unions, they were already somewhat in"},{"startTime":2620.785,"endTime":2625.915,"body":"decline, but a pivotal moment of course,"},{"startTime":2625.915,"endTime":2627.685,"body":"was the election of Ronald Reagan."},{"startTime":2628.345,"endTime":2633.205,"body":"When, uh, you had the air traffic"},{"startTime":2628.345,"endTime":2633.205,"body":"controllers went on strike and he just"},{"startTime":2633.205,"endTime":2635.515,"body":"fired them at all, just like that."},{"startTime":2636.025,"endTime":2639.475,"body":"And that basically sent a"},{"startTime":2636.025,"endTime":2639.475,"body":"signal, the corporate America,"},{"startTime":2639.865,"endTime":2640.705,"body":"that they were afraid of."},{"startTime":2641.965,"endTime":2648.715,"body":"Basically a paws labor unions fall"},{"startTime":2641.965,"endTime":2648.715,"body":"on and they went on a campaign."},{"startTime":2648.715,"endTime":2650.065,"body":"It destroyed labor unions."},{"startTime":2650.095,"endTime":2656.305,"body":"So that vision, if he cannot make"},{"startTime":2650.095,"endTime":2656.305,"body":"democracy that had started to develop"},{"startTime":2656.335,"endTime":2658.855,"body":"in a new deal was utterly destroyed."},{"startTime":2658.885,"endTime":2661.555,"body":"So now in the private sector, I think"},{"startTime":2661.685,"endTime":2664.075,"body":"only about economic democracy, which just"},{"startTime":2664.885,"endTime":2667.075,"body":"having a voice in the"},{"startTime":2664.885,"endTime":2667.075,"body":"way the firm is governed."},{"startTime":2667.675,"endTime":2667.825,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2667.855,"endTime":2668.125,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2668.225,"endTime":2669.345,"body":"And labor unions."},{"startTime":2670.3,"endTime":2673.03,"body":"Uh, voice of sorts in that, right?"},{"startTime":2673.03,"endTime":2678.67,"body":"Cause they can negotiate their"},{"startTime":2673.03,"endTime":2678.67,"body":"contracts, which will in many"},{"startTime":2678.67,"endTime":2684.46,"body":"cases, determine the conditions of"},{"startTime":2678.67,"endTime":2684.46,"body":"work and not just, you know, pay."},{"startTime":2686.89,"endTime":2690.31,"body":"And so now in the private sector,"},{"startTime":2686.89,"endTime":2690.31,"body":"in the United States, only about"},{"startTime":2690.31,"endTime":2693.22,"body":"6% of workers are unionized."},{"startTime":2694.06,"endTime":2695.86,"body":"So, you know, yeah."},{"startTime":2695.86,"endTime":2699.01,"body":"It's are dead in the"},{"startTime":2695.86,"endTime":2699.01,"body":"private sector almost."},{"startTime":2700.54,"endTime":2703.509,"body":"And, you know, public"},{"startTime":2700.54,"endTime":2703.509,"body":"sector, you have more unions."},{"startTime":2703.87,"endTime":2707.2,"body":"Um, yeah, but, but it's still very low."},{"startTime":2708.58,"endTime":2709.089,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2709.15,"endTime":2711.16,"body":"So new deal."},{"startTime":2711.31,"endTime":2716.62,"body":"And then in the eighties, late"},{"startTime":2711.31,"endTime":2716.62,"body":"seventies, neoliberalism starts, Reagan"},{"startTime":2716.62,"endTime":2718.33,"body":"comes in, gives that a big boost."},{"startTime":2719.71,"endTime":2720.49,"body":"What about now?"},{"startTime":2720.67,"endTime":2722.95,"body":"Do you see another"},{"startTime":2720.67,"endTime":2722.95,"body":"ideological shift happening?"},{"startTime":2722.95,"endTime":2728.47,"body":"Because it seems to me that the neoliberal"},{"startTime":2722.95,"endTime":2728.47,"body":"consensus is starting to crack up."},{"startTime":2729.46,"endTime":2729.64,"body":"Oh"},{"startTime":2729.64,"endTime":2730.09,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":2730.12,"endTime":2734.47,"body":"I think that, um, this libertarian"},{"startTime":2730.12,"endTime":2734.47,"body":"vision of capitalism, which"},{"startTime":2734.47,"endTime":2738.7,"body":"some people call neo-liberalism"},{"startTime":2734.47,"endTime":2738.7,"body":"has definitely lost its sheen."},{"startTime":2740.06,"endTime":2747.22,"body":"And another turning point, I think was"},{"startTime":2740.06,"endTime":2747.22,"body":"the financial crisis started in 2007."},{"startTime":2747.25,"endTime":2748.42,"body":"Lots of people went bankrupt."},{"startTime":2749.77,"endTime":2754.12,"body":"Um, including people who"},{"startTime":2749.77,"endTime":2754.12,"body":"had played by all the rules."},{"startTime":2754.57,"endTime":2757.78,"body":"We're not just talking about"},{"startTime":2754.57,"endTime":2757.78,"body":"people who had no income and no job"},{"startTime":2757.81,"endTime":2759.46,"body":"buying a house and then losing it."},{"startTime":2759.88,"endTime":2760.12,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2760.36,"endTime":2762.73,"body":"I mean, there's a lot of people"},{"startTime":2760.36,"endTime":2762.73,"body":"who in fact had been paying their"},{"startTime":2762.73,"endTime":2765.79,"body":"mortgage steadily and then they"},{"startTime":2762.73,"endTime":2765.79,"body":"lose their job and they lose her"},{"startTime":2765.79,"endTime":2766.96,"body":"house and they lose all their stuff."},{"startTime":2767.74,"endTime":2769.03,"body":"They were doing everything right."},{"startTime":2769.03,"endTime":2770.44,"body":"They were totally responsible."},{"startTime":2770.47,"endTime":2770.77,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2770.77,"endTime":2772.72,"body":"But the recession destroyed him."},{"startTime":2773.14,"endTime":2774.1,"body":"That happened a lot."},{"startTime":2774.82,"endTime":2779.17,"body":"And so people started thinking, you"},{"startTime":2774.82,"endTime":2779.17,"body":"know, this freewheeling capitalism"},{"startTime":2779.17,"endTime":2783.88,"body":"where, you know, while Streeters free"},{"startTime":2779.17,"endTime":2783.88,"body":"market trading can bring down the whole"},{"startTime":2783.88,"endTime":2786.55,"body":"system, the whole global economy, right."},{"startTime":2786.55,"endTime":2788.08,"body":"Maybe there's something wrong with that."},{"startTime":2788.86,"endTime":2797.89,"body":"And so we've seen also with"},{"startTime":2788.86,"endTime":2797.89,"body":"rising inequality, uh, And workers"},{"startTime":2797.89,"endTime":2800.23,"body":"suffering under worse conditions."},{"startTime":2800.92,"endTime":2804.91,"body":"So like under the pandemic for,"},{"startTime":2800.92,"endTime":2804.91,"body":"during the pandemic, under the Trump"},{"startTime":2804.91,"endTime":2811.06,"body":"administration, Trump speeded up the,"},{"startTime":2804.91,"endTime":2811.06,"body":"uh, slaughter house assembly lines"},{"startTime":2811.09,"endTime":2812.98,"body":"or disassembly lines, I should say."},{"startTime":2814.24,"endTime":2814.57,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2814.57,"endTime":2819.01,"body":"And that created COVID hotspots because"},{"startTime":2814.57,"endTime":2819.01,"body":"the workers had to crowd together."},{"startTime":2820.944,"endTime":2822.444,"body":"And then they're dropping dead."},{"startTime":2823.944,"endTime":2824.424,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2824.484,"endTime":2829.875,"body":"And, you know, I mean, how much"},{"startTime":2824.484,"endTime":2829.875,"body":"hazardous conditions aren't"},{"startTime":2829.875,"endTime":2831.415,"body":"going to put you on freedom,"},{"startTime":2833.455,"endTime":2834.714,"body":"maybe you want to live."},{"startTime":2834.714,"endTime":2834.984,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2837.654,"endTime":2842.875,"body":"And so the arrogance of people who"},{"startTime":2837.654,"endTime":2842.875,"body":"are basically can order others around"},{"startTime":2842.875,"endTime":2847.734,"body":"with impunity, even to their deaths,"},{"startTime":2842.875,"endTime":2847.734,"body":"uh, just because their employers."},{"startTime":2849.13,"endTime":2849.49,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2849.73,"endTime":2852.43,"body":"A lot of people are really angry at that."},{"startTime":2853.09,"endTime":2854.86,"body":"So the sheet is worn off."},{"startTime":2855.22,"endTime":2857.14,"body":"People are seeing the costs"},{"startTime":2857.89,"endTime":2859.09,"body":"well, great."},{"startTime":2859.45,"endTime":2863.65,"body":"And thank you for the work you're"},{"startTime":2859.45,"endTime":2863.65,"body":"doing in a hastening, its demise."},{"startTime":2864.67,"endTime":2869.68,"body":"I wanted to ask you about another example"},{"startTime":2864.67,"endTime":2869.68,"body":"in your book, because I think it speaks"},{"startTime":2869.68,"endTime":2873.13,"body":"to this idea that it's not just poor"},{"startTime":2869.68,"endTime":2873.13,"body":"material conditions, which are there."},{"startTime":2874.075,"endTime":2878.665,"body":"Uh, but the humiliating, demeaning"},{"startTime":2874.075,"endTime":2878.665,"body":"nature of living under private"},{"startTime":2878.665,"endTime":2882.685,"body":"government, you had this example"},{"startTime":2878.665,"endTime":2882.685,"body":"about an astronauts strike."},{"startTime":2882.805,"endTime":2885.654,"body":"Um, can you tell us a"},{"startTime":2882.805,"endTime":2885.654,"body":"little bit about that?"},{"startTime":2886.435,"endTime":2887.125,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":2889.134,"endTime":2890.605,"body":"So that was a great case."},{"startTime":2890.665,"endTime":2895.855,"body":"Um, where on the space station."},{"startTime":2896.785,"endTime":2901.254,"body":"These, I can't remember what year it was,"},{"startTime":2896.785,"endTime":2901.254,"body":"but the astronauts were had to do perform"},{"startTime":2901.254,"endTime":2903.265,"body":"a lot of experiments, which is fine."},{"startTime":2903.265,"endTime":2908.544,"body":"And astronauts love to do this,"},{"startTime":2903.265,"endTime":2908.544,"body":"but they were being micromanaged."},{"startTime":2908.575,"endTime":2913.415,"body":"Every last minute of their"},{"startTime":2908.575,"endTime":2913.415,"body":"work lives was scheduled."},{"startTime":2913.435,"endTime":2916.015,"body":"And they even told like when they"},{"startTime":2913.435,"endTime":2916.015,"body":"had to go to sleep and when their"},{"startTime":2916.015,"endTime":2920.424,"body":"breaks were like, everything was"},{"startTime":2916.015,"endTime":2920.424,"body":"micromanaged and they were harried and"},{"startTime":2920.424,"endTime":2922.105,"body":"stressed out and couldn't stand up."},{"startTime":2922.855,"endTime":2928.015,"body":"And so finally decided they're just"},{"startTime":2922.855,"endTime":2928.015,"body":"going to turn off the radio, right."},{"startTime":2928.135,"endTime":2930.205,"body":"Michigan control down on earth kid."},{"startTime":2930.415,"endTime":2931.765,"body":"I don't communicate with them."},{"startTime":2933.865,"endTime":2934.195,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2934.225,"endTime":2937.945,"body":"And, and then they turn it"},{"startTime":2934.225,"endTime":2937.945,"body":"back on and they said that."},{"startTime":2939.19,"endTime":2943.18,"body":"We'll do all this, but we're going to do"},{"startTime":2939.19,"endTime":2943.18,"body":"it on our own schedule on our own time."},{"startTime":2943.18,"endTime":2944.32,"body":"And we'll figure out how to do it."},{"startTime":2944.32,"endTime":2945.7,"body":"You just got to put up with that."},{"startTime":2946.27,"endTime":2946.45,"body":"Now."},{"startTime":2946.45,"endTime":2950.74,"body":"Luckily they were many thousands of"},{"startTime":2946.45,"endTime":2950.74,"body":"miles away and they couldn't really"},{"startTime":2950.74,"endTime":2953.8,"body":"be fired since, you know, outer space."},{"startTime":2955.12,"endTime":2956.92,"body":"They were in control of the space station."},{"startTime":2957.25,"endTime":2961.45,"body":"And so they basically just took over the"},{"startTime":2957.25,"endTime":2961.45,"body":"whole operation and they completed all"},{"startTime":2961.45,"endTime":2965.5,"body":"the work, all the tests that needed to"},{"startTime":2961.45,"endTime":2965.5,"body":"be done to fulfill these experiments,"},{"startTime":2965.56,"endTime":2966.85,"body":"but they did it in their own way."},{"startTime":2967.6,"endTime":2969.91,"body":"On their own pace at their own schedule."},{"startTime":2970.33,"endTime":2971.47,"body":"And they did it just fine."},{"startTime":2971.47,"endTime":2973.03,"body":"What they wanted was autonomy."},{"startTime":2973.42,"endTime":2976.54,"body":"They didn't want to just be"},{"startTime":2973.42,"endTime":2976.54,"body":"micromanaged to bossed around."},{"startTime":2977.05,"endTime":2982.57,"body":"And my newly monitored, they were"},{"startTime":2977.05,"endTime":2982.57,"body":"saying, look, we're autonomous workers."},{"startTime":2983.23,"endTime":2988.0,"body":"We can do everything that is"},{"startTime":2983.23,"endTime":2988.0,"body":"required, but let us manage ourselves."},{"startTime":2988.45,"endTime":2989.11,"body":"I feel like."},{"startTime":2991.765,"endTime":2995.605,"body":"Super sympathetic to that view and"},{"startTime":2991.765,"endTime":2995.605,"body":"everyone hates being micromanaged."},{"startTime":2995.845,"endTime":2998.755,"body":"But if you take another example"},{"startTime":2995.845,"endTime":2998.755,"body":"from your book, which is that in a"},{"startTime":2998.755,"endTime":3004.905,"body":"lot of poultry, factories and meat,"},{"startTime":2998.755,"endTime":3004.905,"body":"meatpacking, uh, factories, people"},{"startTime":3004.905,"endTime":3006.465,"body":"aren't allowed to go to the bathroom."},{"startTime":3006.735,"endTime":3010.695,"body":"They have to wear diapers in one case, I"},{"startTime":3006.735,"endTime":3010.695,"body":"think you said in a Bisco, uh, the bosses"},{"startTime":3010.695,"endTime":3013.305,"body":"told workers just to piss themselves."},{"startTime":3016.95,"endTime":3022.649,"body":"Right now, it sounds like, you know,"},{"startTime":3016.95,"endTime":3022.649,"body":"what being told by your boss to"},{"startTime":3022.649,"endTime":3026.67,"body":"pitch yourself is humiliating and"},{"startTime":3022.649,"endTime":3026.67,"body":"shocking, but pissing yourself because"},{"startTime":3026.67,"endTime":3027.99,"body":"of your own devotion to the cause."},{"startTime":3027.99,"endTime":3030.33,"body":"And freedom is like a kind of autonomy."},{"startTime":3033.45,"endTime":3035.879,"body":"So what is the key difference between the."},{"startTime":3036.93,"endTime":3041.4,"body":"Astronauts not being, why is it, you"},{"startTime":3036.93,"endTime":3041.4,"body":"know, what is the micromanagement isolate?"},{"startTime":3041.43,"endTime":3047.61,"body":"What is the human good that their"},{"startTime":3041.43,"endTime":3047.61,"body":"lack of autonomy to decide how"},{"startTime":3047.61,"endTime":3050.43,"body":"they did the tasks, uh, eliminate."},{"startTime":3051.36,"endTime":3055.35,"body":"Well, I mean, that is autonomy"},{"startTime":3051.36,"endTime":3055.35,"body":"is a kind of freedom, right?"},{"startTime":3056.13,"endTime":3060.39,"body":"So yeah, they still have"},{"startTime":3056.13,"endTime":3060.39,"body":"to do they want people."},{"startTime":3061.5,"endTime":3064.2,"body":"To be free to trade away"},{"startTime":3061.5,"endTime":3064.2,"body":"their freedom at work."},{"startTime":3064.59,"endTime":3064.86,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3066.0,"endTime":3066.39,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3066.39,"endTime":3073.26,"body":"But maybe what you want is to be"},{"startTime":3066.39,"endTime":3073.26,"body":"actually maintain that freedom at work."},{"startTime":3074.58,"endTime":3079.92,"body":"So, and that's what code determination"},{"startTime":3074.58,"endTime":3079.92,"body":"can offer workers who can't afford to"},{"startTime":3079.92,"endTime":3085.38,"body":"like literally on their own enterprise and"},{"startTime":3079.92,"endTime":3085.38,"body":"be their own boss directly in that way."},{"startTime":3086.97,"endTime":3087.21,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3087.21,"endTime":3087.93,"body":"It gives them a voice."},{"startTime":3088.965,"endTime":3092.235,"body":"And, and how and how their work lives go."},{"startTime":3092.835,"endTime":3093.285,"body":"Do you"},{"startTime":3093.285,"endTime":3099.345,"body":"see any practical hope for, uh,"},{"startTime":3093.285,"endTime":3099.345,"body":"the decline of private government?"},{"startTime":3100.485,"endTime":3101.055,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":3101.055,"endTime":3103.515,"body":"I think workers are getting"},{"startTime":3101.055,"endTime":3103.515,"body":"more and more pissed off."},{"startTime":3105.055,"endTime":3108.884,"body":"I think we do need, you know, workers"},{"startTime":3105.055,"endTime":3108.884,"body":"need to organize and to a certain"},{"startTime":3108.884,"endTime":3110.384,"body":"degree, they are more and more."},{"startTime":3110.445,"endTime":3111.675,"body":"There's more strikes."},{"startTime":3112.795,"endTime":3113.835,"body":"There really is a shift."},{"startTime":3114.555,"endTime":3118.035,"body":"And, you know, it's, it's the"},{"startTime":3114.555,"endTime":3118.035,"body":"millennials who are realizing,"},{"startTime":3118.035,"endTime":3119.444,"body":"wow, they're really screwed."},{"startTime":3120.884,"endTime":3121.185,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3121.185,"endTime":3124.095,"body":"All the wonderful things that were"},{"startTime":3121.185,"endTime":3124.095,"body":"promised by the capitalist system."},{"startTime":3124.095,"endTime":3125.325,"body":"Like they're not seeing it."},{"startTime":3126.015,"endTime":3126.315,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3126.435,"endTime":3126.855,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3126.975,"endTime":3129.345,"body":"And so that's, that's changing things."},{"startTime":3129.435,"endTime":3131.325,"body":"There's just more organization."},{"startTime":3131.355,"endTime":3134.685,"body":"There's a lot of alternative"},{"startTime":3131.355,"endTime":3134.685,"body":"forms of labor organization."},{"startTime":3134.835,"endTime":3139.634,"body":"So it's not just the traditional unions,"},{"startTime":3134.835,"endTime":3139.634,"body":"which I think in many respects have become"},{"startTime":3139.634,"endTime":3141.665,"body":"complacent and more distant from the work."},{"startTime":3142.65,"endTime":3144.3,"body":"But workers, self organizing."},{"startTime":3145.41,"endTime":3146.1,"body":"Well, good."},{"startTime":3146.82,"endTime":3152.1,"body":"And I think on that note of optimism,"},{"startTime":3146.82,"endTime":3152.1,"body":"uh, we could close the discussion"},{"startTime":3152.1,"endTime":3155.34,"body":"of this book, but before I let"},{"startTime":3152.1,"endTime":3155.34,"body":"you go, I was just wondering,"},{"startTime":3155.43,"endTime":3157.65,"body":"um, what are you working on now?"},{"startTime":3157.68,"endTime":3162.27,"body":"What are the projects that we might"},{"startTime":3157.68,"endTime":3162.27,"body":"see from you in the near future?"},{"startTime":3162.84,"endTime":3163.29,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":3163.29,"endTime":3166.74,"body":"So I have a sequel to private"},{"startTime":3163.29,"endTime":3166.74,"body":"government that I'm working on."},{"startTime":3166.74,"endTime":3169.77,"body":"I'm just putting the final revisions."},{"startTime":3170.4,"endTime":3170.82,"body":"It's called."},{"startTime":3172.68,"endTime":3174.87,"body":"Hijacked go on"},{"startTime":3177.359,"endTime":3182.04,"body":"how neo-liberalism took the"},{"startTime":3177.359,"endTime":3182.04,"body":"work ethic away from workers"},{"startTime":3182.04,"endTime":3183.209,"body":"and how they could take it back."},{"startTime":3184.35,"endTime":3188.459,"body":"And, uh, the idea it's really a"},{"startTime":3184.35,"endTime":3188.459,"body":"history of the process and work ethic"},{"startTime":3188.609,"endTime":3190.709,"body":"from the 17th century to the present."},{"startTime":3191.31,"endTime":3195.93,"body":"And what I'm on earth thing is by"},{"startTime":3191.31,"endTime":3195.93,"body":"working through the history of classical"},{"startTime":3195.93,"endTime":3198.779,"body":"political economy, Smith, Ricardo."},{"startTime":3200.055,"endTime":3206.295,"body":"James and John Stuart mill, the"},{"startTime":3200.055,"endTime":3206.295,"body":"Ricardian socialists marks, the social"},{"startTime":3206.295,"endTime":3212.805,"body":"Democrats in Germany is I'm unearthing"},{"startTime":3206.295,"endTime":3212.805,"body":"what I call the progressive work ethic."},{"startTime":3213.595,"endTime":3217.875,"body":"That is the pro worker work ethic,"},{"startTime":3213.595,"endTime":3217.875,"body":"which I think has been forgotten."},{"startTime":3218.415,"endTime":3218.865,"body":"Uh huh."},{"startTime":3219.285,"endTime":3219.975,"body":"I like it."},{"startTime":3220.455,"endTime":3222.615,"body":"I will tell you I'm a"},{"startTime":3220.455,"endTime":3222.615,"body":"little suspicious of."},{"startTime":3223.754,"endTime":3227.115,"body":"Almost all work ethics, but I"},{"startTime":3223.754,"endTime":3227.115,"body":"can't wait to read the book and,"},{"startTime":3227.115,"endTime":3230.145,"body":"uh, maybe get you back on to"},{"startTime":3227.115,"endTime":3230.145,"body":"talk about it when it comes out."},{"startTime":3230.685,"endTime":3234.765,"body":"Um, but for now, thank you so"},{"startTime":3230.685,"endTime":3234.765,"body":"much for coming on Elizabeth."},{"startTime":3234.855,"endTime":3236.714,"body":"Uh, it's been super"},{"startTime":3234.855,"endTime":3236.714,"body":"interesting talking to you."},{"startTime":3237.245,"endTime":3237.645,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3237.935,"endTime":3239.384,"body":"It's a pleasure talking with you."},{"startTime":3252.345,"endTime":3255.975,"body":"That is our episode for today"},{"startTime":3252.345,"endTime":3255.975,"body":"as ever if you'd like to support"},{"startTime":3255.975,"endTime":3258.915,"body":"the show, tell everyone you"},{"startTime":3255.975,"endTime":3258.915,"body":"know, about it, spread the word."},{"startTime":3259.154,"endTime":3262.875,"body":"And if you'd like to give us money,"},{"startTime":3259.154,"endTime":3262.875,"body":"head over to patrion.com/good"},{"startTime":3262.875,"endTime":3264.795,"body":"in theory and do it there."}]}