{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":13.17,"endTime":16.35,"body":"Today is the third"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":13.17,"endTime":16.35,"body":"thought lab with Paul Sager, and"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":16.35,"endTime":20.79,"body":"we talk utilitarianism, drowning"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":16.35,"endTime":20.79,"body":"children, and when it's okay to"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":20.79,"endTime":26.82,"body":"develop biological weapons, I'm"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":20.79,"endTime":26.82,"body":"Clif Mark. And this is good in"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":26.82,"endTime":27.18,"body":"theory."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":33.99,"endTime":34.8,"body":"Welcome back,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":34.8,"endTime":37.44,"body":"Paul, we're glad to have you"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":34.8,"endTime":37.44,"body":"here for a third thought lab."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":37.92,"endTime":39.57,"body":"Thanks very much for"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":37.92,"endTime":39.57,"body":"having me back cliff."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":40.44,"endTime":42.39,"body":"We're going to be"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":40.44,"endTime":42.39,"body":"talking about utilitarianism"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":42.39,"endTime":46.74,"body":"today. So I'm just going to"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":42.39,"endTime":46.74,"body":"start by giving a basic idea of"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":46.74,"endTime":52.17,"body":"what utilitarianism is. So,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":46.74,"endTime":52.17,"body":"utilitarianism is a moral"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":52.17,"endTime":55.98,"body":"philosophy that says, The best"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":52.17,"endTime":55.98,"body":"thing to do at all times is,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":56.19,"endTime":59.31,"body":"whatever produces the best"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":56.19,"endTime":59.31,"body":"consequences. And the best"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":59.31,"endTime":62.1,"body":"consequences are understood as"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":59.31,"endTime":62.1,"body":"the ones that produce the most"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":62.1,"endTime":66.15,"body":"happiness, or well being or"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":62.1,"endTime":66.15,"body":"benefit to the greatest number"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":66.15,"endTime":70.26,"body":"of people or in aggregate. So"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":66.15,"endTime":70.26,"body":"instead of sitting around"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":70.26,"endTime":75.15,"body":"worrying about is it really"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":70.26,"endTime":75.15,"body":"wrong to steal? Is it wrong to"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":75.15,"endTime":78.9,"body":"do this or that, you just look"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":75.15,"endTime":78.9,"body":"at what the consequences of your"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":78.9,"endTime":82.62,"body":"actions are going to be. And you"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":78.9,"endTime":82.62,"body":"choose the action that's going"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":82.62,"endTime":87.06,"body":"to have the best outcomes"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":82.62,"endTime":87.06,"body":"aggregated from everyone in the"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":87.06,"endTime":92.64,"body":"world. So, Paul, could you give"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":87.06,"endTime":92.64,"body":"us an example of how that works"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":92.64,"endTime":93.45,"body":"in practice?"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":94.05,"endTime":97.86,"body":"So a classic example"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":94.05,"endTime":97.86,"body":"might be something that a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":97.86,"endTime":101.07,"body":"government would have to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":97.86,"endTime":101.07,"body":"consider. So we know that every"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":101.07,"endTime":104.97,"body":"year many 1000s of people in"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":101.07,"endTime":104.97,"body":"say, the US and Canada are going"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":104.97,"endTime":109.26,"body":"to die on the freeway, it's just"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":104.97,"endTime":109.26,"body":"we know from the historical"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":109.47,"endTime":111.75,"body":"incidents of road traffic"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":109.47,"endTime":111.75,"body":"accidents, and we have good"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":111.75,"endTime":114.84,"body":"reason to expect those to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":111.75,"endTime":114.84,"body":"continue in some similar way"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":114.84,"endTime":117.84,"body":"into the future. And that means"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":114.84,"endTime":117.84,"body":"1000s of people will die in"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":117.84,"endTime":120.84,"body":"horrific ways right? Now, what"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":117.84,"endTime":120.84,"body":"we could say, is that so"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":120.84,"endTime":124.44,"body":"terrible, that we're going to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":120.84,"endTime":124.44,"body":"stop having people drive on the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":124.44,"endTime":126.48,"body":"freeway, or we're going to make"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":124.44,"endTime":126.48,"body":"them drive at five miles an"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":126.48,"endTime":129.66,"body":"hour, because that will get the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":126.48,"endTime":129.66,"body":"deaths on the freeways down to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":129.66,"endTime":132.27,"body":"zero. And that would, you know,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":129.66,"endTime":132.27,"body":"stop people dying on the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":132.27,"endTime":135.06,"body":"freeway. But the flip side is,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":132.27,"endTime":135.06,"body":"but in order to have a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":135.06,"endTime":138.66,"body":"functioning, healthy economy, in"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":135.06,"endTime":138.66,"body":"order to have haulage moving"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":138.66,"endTime":140.91,"body":"across the country, in order for"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":138.66,"endTime":140.91,"body":"people to be able to live their"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":140.91,"endTime":145.11,"body":"lives, go to their work, have"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":140.91,"endTime":145.11,"body":"holidays, see their family, we"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":145.11,"endTime":148.08,"body":"need a freeway infrastructure,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":145.11,"endTime":148.08,"body":"which allows people to travel"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":148.08,"endTime":151.23,"body":"very, very fast. As what"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":148.08,"endTime":151.23,"body":"governments do is they weigh up"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":151.29,"endTime":154.68,"body":"on balance, what is going to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":151.29,"endTime":154.68,"body":"promote the greatest well being"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":154.71,"endTime":157.92,"body":"of the greatest number. And in"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":154.71,"endTime":157.92,"body":"this case, it's having freeways"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":157.92,"endTime":160.95,"body":"where people can drive at 70, or"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":157.92,"endTime":160.95,"body":"80, or whatever mile per hour"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":160.95,"endTime":164.01,"body":"is, even though that means some"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":160.95,"endTime":164.01,"body":"people are going to die. So what"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":164.01,"endTime":166.62,"body":"we're going to choose to do here"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":164.01,"endTime":166.62,"body":"is tolerate a certain number of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":166.62,"endTime":171.45,"body":"deaths, in exchange for benefits"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":166.62,"endTime":171.45,"body":"that accrue to the majority."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":171.75,"endTime":174.81,"body":"Even though the benefits to the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":171.75,"endTime":174.81,"body":"majority are relatively slight"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":174.81,"endTime":177.72,"body":"compared to the cost to the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":174.81,"endTime":177.72,"body":"minority, the minority that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":177.72,"endTime":181.08,"body":"dies, loses everything. But the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":177.72,"endTime":181.08,"body":"majority that doesn't die, but"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":181.08,"endTime":182.88,"body":"gets to carry on using the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":181.08,"endTime":182.88,"body":"freeway go into small"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":182.88,"endTime":186.03,"body":"increments. But the utilitarian"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":182.88,"endTime":186.03,"body":"thought here is that if you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":186.03,"endTime":190.68,"body":"aggregate all that increment, it"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":186.03,"endTime":190.68,"body":"outweighs even the very, very"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":190.68,"endTime":192.87,"body":"bad thing in the hands to the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":190.68,"endTime":192.87,"body":"minority."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":193.05,"endTime":196.26,"body":"Good. So"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":193.05,"endTime":196.26,"body":"utilitarianism is a kind of"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":196.32,"endTime":201.0,"body":"economic logic. It's a cost"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":196.32,"endTime":201.0,"body":"benefit analysis, where you add"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":201.0,"endTime":203.37,"body":"up all the good things and all"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":201.0,"endTime":203.37,"body":"the bad things, and you just try"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":203.37,"endTime":207.81,"body":"to go for the best outcome"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":203.37,"endTime":207.81,"body":"right. Now that we've got that"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":207.84,"endTime":211.65,"body":"basic shape of the theory in"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":207.84,"endTime":211.65,"body":"place, I'd like to start with"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":211.65,"endTime":216.69,"body":"the thought experiments. And on"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":211.65,"endTime":216.69,"body":"the show, we've had sex with"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":216.69,"endTime":218.91,"body":"dead chickens, we've had a"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":216.69,"endTime":218.91,"body":"little bit of incest, we've"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":218.91,"endTime":223.5,"body":"served dinner with murder"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":218.91,"endTime":223.5,"body":"knives. And today, I'd like to"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":223.5,"endTime":226.5,"body":"start by drowning a child. And I"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":223.5,"endTime":226.5,"body":"think you know which one I'm"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":226.5,"endTime":227.1,"body":"talking about."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":228.03,"endTime":230.28,"body":"So cliff, the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":228.03,"endTime":230.28,"body":"problem with utilitarianism is"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":230.28,"endTime":233.34,"body":"there's so many examples that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":230.28,"endTime":233.34,"body":"involve doing harm to children."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":234.03,"endTime":236.73,"body":"totally sure which one you're"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":234.03,"endTime":236.73,"body":"referring to. But the one that I"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":236.73,"endTime":239.91,"body":"teach my students is seen as"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":236.73,"endTime":239.91,"body":"very famous example of the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":239.91,"endTime":242.97,"body":"drowning child. The thought"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":239.91,"endTime":242.97,"body":"experiment goes like this,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":242.97,"endTime":245.64,"body":"you're you're walking around the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":242.97,"endTime":245.64,"body":"local pond, perhaps you've gone"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":245.64,"endTime":249.24,"body":"there to feed the ducks, who"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":245.64,"endTime":249.24,"body":"knows. And you see a small child"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":249.24,"endTime":250.59,"body":"drowning in the pond."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":252.39,"endTime":253.08,"body":"What should you do?"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":254.85,"endTime":256.47,"body":"Well, you jump in and"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":254.85,"endTime":256.47,"body":"save the child. Okay,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":256.65,"endTime":259.05,"body":"but what if you were"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":256.65,"endTime":259.05,"body":"wearing an expensive pair of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":259.05,"endTime":262.44,"body":"Italian handcrafted suede"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":259.05,"endTime":262.44,"body":"loafers that you'd only just"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":262.44,"endTime":264.69,"body":"bought the day before and you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":262.44,"endTime":264.69,"body":"really didn't want to get them"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":264.69,"endTime":265.02,"body":"wet."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":266.25,"endTime":268.56,"body":"You slip off your"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":266.25,"endTime":268.56,"body":"loafers and you save the child."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":268.65,"endTime":270.48,"body":"But what if it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":268.65,"endTime":270.48,"body":"muddy and they they're going to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":270.48,"endTime":272.79,"body":"get you know, they don't they"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":270.48,"endTime":272.79,"body":"can't take them off late. It's"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":272.79,"endTime":275.79,"body":"just the vagabonds around they"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":272.79,"endTime":275.79,"body":"might steal them, you know, you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":275.79,"endTime":278.13,"body":"really can't really take them"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":275.79,"endTime":278.13,"body":"off and you can't get them wet."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":278.88,"endTime":283.17,"body":"You know, it's okay to walk"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":278.88,"endTime":283.17,"body":"away. No, obviously, no matter"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":283.17,"endTime":287.01,"body":"what you're wearing, no matter"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":283.17,"endTime":287.01,"body":"how fresh, you got to jump in"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":287.01,"endTime":289.35,"body":"and get that baby. Good. So"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":287.01,"endTime":289.35,"body":"that's a conclusion that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":289.35,"endTime":292.32,"body":"obviously singer wants everyone"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":289.35,"endTime":292.32,"body":"to draw. Right? And we all agree"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":292.62,"endTime":295.38,"body":"that you can't let a child drown"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":292.62,"endTime":295.38,"body":"just because you don't want to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":295.5,"endTime":297.93,"body":"get your shoes wet, right?"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":295.5,"endTime":297.93,"body":"That's not acceptable. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":297.93,"endTime":300.72,"body":"singers point here is we all"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":297.93,"endTime":300.72,"body":"agree with this. But then he"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":300.72,"endTime":304.65,"body":"tries to build over here. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":300.72,"endTime":304.65,"body":"but here's the rub. So what he"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":304.65,"endTime":309.3,"body":"wants to say next is okay, think"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":304.65,"endTime":309.3,"body":"about children who are at risk"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":309.3,"endTime":312.63,"body":"of drowning in Bangor, because"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":309.3,"endTime":312.63,"body":"the government lacks the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":312.63,"endTime":316.47,"body":"infrastructure to protect them"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":312.63,"endTime":316.47,"body":"from floodwaters. And yet, for"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":316.47,"endTime":320.76,"body":"whom it would be very easy for"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":316.47,"endTime":320.76,"body":"us to help them, if we simply"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":320.76,"endTime":325.29,"body":"sent them a small portion of our"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":320.76,"endTime":325.29,"body":"income, far less than the price"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":325.29,"endTime":328.89,"body":"of a lovely pair of Italian"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":325.29,"endTime":328.89,"body":"shoes. And if we simply sent"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":328.89,"endTime":332.34,"body":"that income to them, we could"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":328.89,"endTime":332.34,"body":"save not just one child, but"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":332.34,"endTime":335.97,"body":"many, many 1000s of child"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":332.34,"endTime":335.97,"body":"children from drowning. So do we"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":335.97,"endTime":339.63,"body":"not have a duty to do exactly"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":335.97,"endTime":339.63,"body":"that?"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":340.379,"endTime":344.759,"body":"So the question is"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":340.379,"endTime":344.759,"body":"whether we have a duty to not"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":344.759,"endTime":348.599,"body":"spend our money on expensive"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":344.759,"endTime":348.599,"body":"shoes, because we could just as"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":348.599,"endTime":353.639,"body":"easily use the money to save the"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":348.599,"endTime":353.639,"body":"lives of starving children on"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":353.639,"endTime":357.899,"body":"the other side of the world."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":353.639,"endTime":357.899,"body":"Now, we both know that if you"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":357.899,"endTime":360.209,"body":"start telling people, they have"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":357.899,"endTime":360.209,"body":"a duty to hand over their money,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":360.659,"endTime":364.019,"body":"they're gonna start coming up"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":360.659,"endTime":364.019,"body":"with objections. And the first"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":364.019,"endTime":368.459,"body":"one that you usually hear with"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":364.019,"endTime":368.459,"body":"this example is, why is it my"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":368.459,"endTime":371.909,"body":"business? These kids are on the"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":368.459,"endTime":371.909,"body":"other side of the world? Don't"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":371.909,"endTime":373.829,"body":"they have parents? Don't they"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":371.909,"endTime":373.829,"body":"have their own government that"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":373.829,"endTime":380.189,"body":"should be taking care of them?"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":373.829,"endTime":380.189,"body":"Why is it up to me to save these"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":380.219,"endTime":382.769,"body":"drowning children in another"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":380.219,"endTime":382.769,"body":"hemisphere?"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":383.309,"endTime":385.859,"body":"Well, this is where"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":383.309,"endTime":385.859,"body":"singer embodies the kind of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":385.889,"endTime":388.919,"body":"ultimately hard headed"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":385.889,"endTime":388.919,"body":"utilitarian attitude here, which"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":388.919,"endTime":392.249,"body":"is that it doesn't matter that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":388.919,"endTime":392.249,"body":"they're 1000s of miles away,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":392.369,"endTime":394.979,"body":"right, saying what to say,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":392.369,"endTime":394.979,"body":"doesn't matter, that their"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":394.979,"endTime":397.109,"body":"government has failed them,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":394.979,"endTime":397.109,"body":"which is true, or their parents"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":397.109,"endTime":399.959,"body":"have abandoned them, which may"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":397.109,"endTime":399.959,"body":"also be true, what matters is"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":399.959,"endTime":403.949,"body":"that you have the capacity"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":399.959,"endTime":403.949,"body":"through using your money to save"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":403.949,"endTime":406.619,"body":"them, right. And the mere fact"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":403.949,"endTime":406.619,"body":"that you can't see them, or that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":406.619,"endTime":409.649,"body":"they're very, very far away is"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":406.619,"endTime":409.649,"body":"morally irrelevant singer wants"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":409.649,"endTime":412.769,"body":"to say. So in one case, you'd"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":409.649,"endTime":412.769,"body":"have to ruin your new shoes, and"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":412.769,"endTime":415.289,"body":"that will cost you money. If you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":412.769,"endTime":415.289,"body":"wanted to replace the shoes. In"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":415.289,"endTime":418.019,"body":"the other, you'd have to forego"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":415.289,"endTime":418.019,"body":"shoes in order to save the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":418.019,"endTime":420.749,"body":"children. And what's sitting on"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":418.019,"endTime":420.749,"body":"wants to say is that given that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":420.749,"endTime":423.719,"body":"you are in a position to save"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":420.749,"endTime":423.719,"body":"them, it doesn't matter,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":423.809,"endTime":426.149,"body":"right. But what I'm"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":423.809,"endTime":426.149,"body":"saying is, aren't those children"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":426.149,"endTime":429.269,"body":"someone else's problem? Why is"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":426.149,"endTime":429.269,"body":"it up to me to save them?"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":429.509,"endTime":432.959,"body":"Well, because you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":429.509,"endTime":432.959,"body":"can write and insofar as a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":432.959,"endTime":435.929,"body":"singer thinks that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":432.959,"endTime":435.929,"body":"utilitarianism is the correct"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":435.929,"endTime":440.369,"body":"moral code a, we should try and"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":435.929,"endTime":440.369,"body":"save as many people as possible"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":440.369,"endTime":443.819,"body":"increase the preferences and the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":440.369,"endTime":443.819,"body":"satisfactions of as many living"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":443.819,"endTime":446.429,"body":"creatures as possible. If you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":443.819,"endTime":446.429,"body":"buy that premise, which of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":446.429,"endTime":448.619,"body":"course, maybe you don't, but he"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":446.429,"endTime":448.619,"body":"says, if you do buy that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":448.619,"endTime":452.459,"body":"premise, then you should do"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":448.619,"endTime":452.459,"body":"everything you can to try and"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":452.459,"endTime":454.679,"body":"reduce the amount of suffering"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":452.459,"endTime":454.679,"body":"increase the amount of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":454.799,"endTime":457.979,"body":"satisfaction of preferences as"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":454.799,"endTime":457.979,"body":"he put it, in the world that you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":457.979,"endTime":460.349,"body":"can. And the fact that these"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":457.979,"endTime":460.349,"body":"people are unconnected to you,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":460.349,"endTime":462.479,"body":"personally, is just a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":460.349,"endTime":462.479,"body":"distraction, right? That's a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":462.479,"endTime":466.109,"body":"prejudice, he'd want to say"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":462.479,"endTime":466.109,"body":"that's a hang up from a pre"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":466.109,"endTime":469.499,"body":"scientific bunch of prejudices"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":466.109,"endTime":469.499,"body":"you have about morality. But if"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":469.499,"endTime":472.439,"body":"you accept that you should save"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":469.499,"endTime":472.439,"body":"a drowning child. Even if your"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":472.439,"endTime":475.409,"body":"shoes get wet, then by the same"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":472.439,"endTime":475.409,"body":"logic, you should try to save"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":475.559,"endTime":477.899,"body":"children who are further away,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":475.559,"endTime":477.899,"body":"just because you can't see them"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":477.899,"endTime":478.559,"body":"doesn't matter."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":478.829,"endTime":481.829,"body":"Right? Even if every"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":478.829,"endTime":481.829,"body":"child matters, then they all"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":481.829,"endTime":482.129,"body":"matter"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":482.129,"endTime":483.299,"body":"equally, even"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":483.419,"endTime":486.179,"body":"even Bengali children"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":483.419,"endTime":486.179,"body":"are worth a pair of shoes is"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":486.449,"endTime":490.769,"body":"right. That's basically the is"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":486.449,"endTime":490.769,"body":"singers like very low bar that"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":490.769,"endTime":491.789,"body":"he's trying to establish."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":492.089,"endTime":492.719,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":492.779,"endTime":496.709,"body":"So suppose I'm"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":492.779,"endTime":496.709,"body":"convinced by the Cosmopolitan"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":496.709,"endTime":501.839,"body":"impartiality of the utilitarian"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":496.709,"endTime":501.839,"body":"position. And I say, Fine. I'm"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":501.839,"endTime":505.229,"body":"not going to buy shoes. This"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":501.839,"endTime":505.229,"body":"time, I'm just going to send the"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":505.229,"endTime":509.429,"body":"money I would have spent on"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":505.229,"endTime":509.429,"body":"shoes to famine relief. Are we"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":509.429,"endTime":513.149,"body":"done? Can I just go on my life"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":509.429,"endTime":513.149,"body":"and start thinking about my next"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":513.149,"endTime":513.959,"body":"pair of shoes yet?"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":514.95,"endTime":517.5,"body":"So Peter Singer"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":514.95,"endTime":517.5,"body":"wants to say no, because, okay,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":517.5,"endTime":521.46,"body":"you've forgotten a couple of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":517.5,"endTime":521.46,"body":"$100 on nice shoes. But look at"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":521.46,"endTime":524.97,"body":"your life compared to the life"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":521.46,"endTime":524.97,"body":"of these Bengali children. Look"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":524.97,"endTime":528.84,"body":"at how much more you have, look"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":524.97,"endTime":528.84,"body":"at how much better your life is"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":528.84,"endTime":533.52,"body":"going than theirs, even when"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":528.84,"endTime":533.52,"body":"you've sent the $200 to their"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":533.52,"endTime":535.62,"body":"children. So surely, you can"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":533.52,"endTime":535.62,"body":"afford to give a little bit"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":535.62,"endTime":538.5,"body":"more, right. I mean, your life"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":535.62,"endTime":538.5,"body":"is so much more comfortable than"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":538.5,"endTime":538.98,"body":"theirs"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":539.31,"endTime":543.99,"body":"400 500 1006 that"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":539.31,"endTime":543.99,"body":"what is this going to cost me."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":544.32,"endTime":546.69,"body":"So Peter Singer stops asking for"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":544.32,"endTime":546.69,"body":"my money,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":547.74,"endTime":550.26,"body":"while more or less"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":547.74,"endTime":550.26,"body":"until you've given away"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":550.26,"endTime":553.8,"body":"everything above what you need"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":550.26,"endTime":553.8,"body":"just to survive a fairly basic"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":553.8,"endTime":558.78,"body":"level. And singa himself does"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":553.8,"endTime":558.78,"body":"seem to live fairly close to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":558.78,"endTime":562.8,"body":"this code. But his conclusion is"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":558.78,"endTime":562.8,"body":"that everybody should be giving"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":562.8,"endTime":566.58,"body":"away pretty much all of the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":562.8,"endTime":566.58,"body":"surplus that they have to those"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":566.58,"endTime":569.52,"body":"less need, sorry, those more"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":566.58,"endTime":569.52,"body":"needy than they are, because"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":569.52,"endTime":573.12,"body":"that is a way that we can"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":569.52,"endTime":573.12,"body":"directly try to improve the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":573.12,"endTime":576.0,"body":"amount of some pleasure or"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":573.12,"endTime":576.0,"body":"happiness or the amount of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":576.0,"endTime":578.97,"body":"satisfaction that there is in"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":576.0,"endTime":578.97,"body":"the world. So it's not enough"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":578.97,"endTime":581.76,"body":"just to not buy those shoes and"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":578.97,"endTime":581.76,"body":"send the money to charity."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":581.91,"endTime":585.18,"body":"You've got to give pretty much"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":581.91,"endTime":585.18,"body":"everything that's above the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":585.18,"endTime":587.34,"body":"necessities that you need to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":585.18,"endTime":587.34,"body":"survive."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":587.55,"endTime":591.57,"body":"Okay, so just to"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":587.55,"endTime":591.57,"body":"recap, why is this utilitarian,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":591.57,"endTime":596.4,"body":"it's because the pleasure that"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":591.57,"endTime":596.4,"body":"I'm going to get the happiness"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":596.4,"endTime":599.04,"body":"that I'm going to get out of"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":596.4,"endTime":599.04,"body":"that pair of shoes or out of"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":599.04,"endTime":604.02,"body":"whatever amount of money Have"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":599.04,"endTime":604.02,"body":"being a rich Western person is"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":604.02,"endTime":608.97,"body":"going to be much smaller than"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":604.02,"endTime":608.97,"body":"the happiness that these"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":608.97,"endTime":613.05,"body":"children will have in virtue of"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":608.97,"endTime":613.05,"body":"being able to eat and not starve"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":613.05,"endTime":613.47,"body":"to death."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":614.31,"endTime":617.25,"body":"Exactly, the sort of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":614.31,"endTime":617.25,"body":"pleasure or utility that you'll"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":617.25,"endTime":621.0,"body":"get from a pair of shoes is just"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":617.25,"endTime":621.0,"body":"vastly outweighed singer thinks"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":621.18,"endTime":625.29,"body":"by, you know, not dying, or not"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":621.18,"endTime":625.29,"body":"drowning or not starving, or,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":625.29,"endTime":628.05,"body":"you know, they're having a life"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":625.29,"endTime":628.05,"body":"that you were in which you can"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":628.05,"endTime":630.12,"body":"grow up through some kind of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":628.05,"endTime":630.12,"body":"education, some kind of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":630.12,"endTime":632.76,"body":"opportunity with other things,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":630.12,"endTime":632.76,"body":"the money could be used. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":632.76,"endTime":636.39,"body":"it's basically this idea that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":632.76,"endTime":636.39,"body":"utilitarianism compares these"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":636.39,"endTime":639.51,"body":"different outcomes and NGOs have"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":636.39,"endTime":639.51,"body":"the one where the outcome is"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":639.51,"endTime":640.41,"body":"more beneficial."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":641.16,"endTime":648.93,"body":"So this is alienating"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":641.16,"endTime":648.93,"body":"and repellent and very"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":649.02,"endTime":652.56,"body":"compelling in a very specific"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":649.02,"endTime":652.56,"body":"kind of philosophical way. This"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":652.56,"endTime":657.42,"body":"makes sense to me, it is hard to"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":652.56,"endTime":657.42,"body":"say, No, I'd rather have shoes"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":657.81,"endTime":663.03,"body":"than to save a child's life."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":657.81,"endTime":663.03,"body":"However, people look for reasons"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":663.06,"endTime":665.61,"body":"at this point in the example,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":663.06,"endTime":665.61,"body":"like I said, we both taught it,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":665.85,"endTime":668.4,"body":"students are hands up saying Why"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":665.85,"endTime":668.4,"body":"should I give anything,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":668.4,"endTime":671.46,"body":"everything? I have a way I"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":668.4,"endTime":671.46,"body":"worked for this, I deserve it."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":671.46,"endTime":674.19,"body":"This is mine, who are these"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":671.46,"endTime":674.19,"body":"strangers on the other side of"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":674.19,"endTime":677.55,"body":"the earth? Who have a right to"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":674.19,"endTime":677.55,"body":"take everything that I've shaped"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":677.55,"endTime":681.54,"body":"my life around? So what do you"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":677.55,"endTime":681.54,"body":"say to them as a Peter Singer,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":681.54,"endTime":682.26,"body":"utilitarian?"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":683.1,"endTime":685.92,"body":"So again, the Peter"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":683.1,"endTime":685.92,"body":"Singer utilitarianism response"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":685.92,"endTime":688.68,"body":"here is just the hard headed"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":685.92,"endTime":688.68,"body":"one, it says, Well, you know,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":688.68,"endTime":691.59,"body":"that's just prejudice. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":688.68,"endTime":691.59,"body":"that's just selfishness. What"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":691.59,"endTime":693.48,"body":"you are basically doing is"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":691.59,"endTime":693.48,"body":"saying that you are more"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":693.48,"endTime":695.46,"body":"important than these other"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":693.48,"endTime":695.46,"body":"people just because you were"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":695.46,"endTime":698.55,"body":"lucky enough to be born into a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":695.46,"endTime":698.55,"body":"culture and an economy, where"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":698.55,"endTime":701.67,"body":"you were given far more at a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":698.55,"endTime":701.67,"body":"younger age, and had better life"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":701.67,"endTime":704.61,"body":"chances. But that's all just a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":701.67,"endTime":704.61,"body":"matter of luck. You don't,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":704.64,"endTime":706.68,"body":"there's nothing about you,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":704.64,"endTime":706.68,"body":"that's special, there's nothing"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":706.68,"endTime":710.1,"body":"about you, that means you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":706.68,"endTime":710.1,"body":"deserve these advantages. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":710.1,"endTime":713.01,"body":"the least you could do now is"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":710.1,"endTime":713.01,"body":"try and level other people up to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":713.01,"endTime":716.37,"body":"a bit closer to where you are."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":713.01,"endTime":716.37,"body":"And what you're really"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":716.4,"endTime":719.58,"body":"expressing here is a kind of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":716.4,"endTime":719.58,"body":"prejudice, a kind of selfishness"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":719.58,"endTime":723.33,"body":"and a set of sort of prejudicial"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":719.58,"endTime":723.33,"body":"favoring of yourself. That's the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":723.33,"endTime":726.03,"body":"kind of hard headed utilitarian"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":723.33,"endTime":726.03,"body":"answer here that I think is most"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":726.03,"endTime":729.06,"body":"consistent, because"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":726.03,"endTime":729.06,"body":"utilitarianism says"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":729.42,"endTime":732.51,"body":"the resources go"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":729.42,"endTime":732.51,"body":"wherever they can cause the most"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":732.51,"endTime":738.45,"body":"benefit. And the most benefit is"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":732.51,"endTime":738.45,"body":"not me updating my shoes every"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":738.45,"endTime":738.81,"body":"year."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":739.71,"endTime":740.73,"body":"Exactly. It's"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":740.789,"endTime":743.519,"body":"children not"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":740.789,"endTime":743.519,"body":"starving, or, you know, mosquito"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":743.519,"endTime":744.329,"body":"nets in Africa,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":744.359,"endTime":748.739,"body":"right. So here's the"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":744.359,"endTime":748.739,"body":"question, this way of thinking"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":748.769,"endTime":752.399,"body":"it makes sense if it's just one"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":748.769,"endTime":752.399,"body":"pair of shoes for one drowning"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":752.399,"endTime":757.919,"body":"child. But once you tell me"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":752.399,"endTime":757.919,"body":"that, I have to give away"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":757.919,"endTime":760.649,"body":"everything till I'm living on a"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":757.919,"endTime":760.649,"body":"subsistence level just to buy"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":760.649,"endTime":764.159,"body":"mosquito nets, and that every"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":760.649,"endTime":764.159,"body":"decision I make is governed by"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":764.159,"endTime":768.089,"body":"that. It just sounds like a"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":764.159,"endTime":768.089,"body":"monstrous way to think and no"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":768.089,"endTime":773.579,"body":"one should ever think that way."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":768.089,"endTime":773.579,"body":"And so how does utilitarianism"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":773.609,"endTime":776.789,"body":"make sense as a way of moral"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":773.609,"endTime":776.789,"body":"reasoning at all?"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":777.33,"endTime":779.7,"body":"Good. So one way to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":777.33,"endTime":779.7,"body":"think about this that I find"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":779.7,"endTime":783.18,"body":"helpful is there's times when"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":779.7,"endTime":783.18,"body":"utilitarianism makes perfect"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":783.18,"endTime":787.11,"body":"sense. And those are usually in"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":783.18,"endTime":787.11,"body":"political situations. And there"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":787.11,"endTime":791.13,"body":"are times when we'd probably"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":787.11,"endTime":791.13,"body":"have to be utilitarians. But"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":791.13,"endTime":793.62,"body":"there's a big question about"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":791.13,"endTime":793.62,"body":"whether utilitarianism can"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":793.62,"endTime":796.71,"body":"really make sense at an"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":793.62,"endTime":796.71,"body":"individual level as a personal"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":796.71,"endTime":800.22,"body":"ethic. And whether in fact, in"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":796.71,"endTime":800.22,"body":"both cases, given the level of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":800.22,"endTime":803.25,"body":"personal morality, but also at"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":800.22,"endTime":803.25,"body":"political morality, there are"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":803.28,"endTime":806.7,"body":"lines which we should be deeply,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":803.28,"endTime":806.7,"body":"deeply suspicious of ever"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":806.7,"endTime":810.48,"body":"crossing, which utilitarianism"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":806.7,"endTime":810.48,"body":"not only wants you to cross, but"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":810.48,"endTime":813.54,"body":"want you to say there's nothing"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":810.48,"endTime":813.54,"body":"wrong with crossing them."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":813.96,"endTime":816.75,"body":"Give me an example of"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":813.96,"endTime":816.75,"body":"utilitarian line crossing."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":817.77,"endTime":820.14,"body":"So there's a few"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":817.77,"endTime":820.14,"body":"that tend to be used in this"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":820.14,"endTime":823.65,"body":"area. The first one is about"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":820.14,"endTime":823.65,"body":"stealing people's organs. The"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":823.65,"endTime":825.96,"body":"second one is about a guy who"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":823.65,"endTime":825.96,"body":"has to go into a job he doesn't"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":825.96,"endTime":828.87,"body":"like. And the third one has some"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":825.96,"endTime":828.87,"body":"very problematic language that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":828.87,"endTime":833.04,"body":"we may need to modify for a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":828.87,"endTime":833.04,"body":"contemporary audience. But maybe"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":833.04,"endTime":837.57,"body":"we'll start with the famous"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":833.04,"endTime":837.57,"body":"organ theft example, which kind"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":837.57,"endTime":840.48,"body":"of crosses the line between"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":837.57,"endTime":840.48,"body":"political and ethical,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":840.6,"endTime":843.66,"body":"individual ethical questions"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":840.6,"endTime":843.66,"body":"sort of straddles the two. So"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":843.66,"endTime":848.43,"body":"one thought here is, imagine you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":843.66,"endTime":848.43,"body":"had five people who were in a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":848.43,"endTime":850.89,"body":"hospital and they're all dying"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":848.43,"endTime":850.89,"body":"of some kind of organ failure,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":850.89,"endTime":853.2,"body":"one's got liver failure, we've"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":850.89,"endTime":853.2,"body":"got kidney failure, one needs"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":853.2,"endTime":856.38,"body":"new hearts, and they're all"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":853.2,"endTime":856.38,"body":"going to die. These are all"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":856.41,"endTime":860.28,"body":"immensely popular, hardworking"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":856.41,"endTime":860.28,"body":"members of society, all of whom"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":860.28,"endTime":863.19,"body":"have loving families. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":860.28,"endTime":863.19,"body":"indeed, some of them are"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":863.19,"endTime":866.07,"body":"scientists who are on the brink"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":863.19,"endTime":866.07,"body":"of making major discoveries,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":866.07,"endTime":870.42,"body":"which are likely to improve"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":866.07,"endTime":870.42,"body":"human wellbeing on aggregate."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":870.87,"endTime":873.18,"body":"But they're gonna die these"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":870.87,"endTime":873.18,"body":"these five guys, or maybe a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":873.18,"endTime":875.73,"body":"women as well that those be non"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":873.18,"endTime":875.73,"body":"binary people, whatever gender"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":875.73,"endTime":878.7,"body":"they are these these five"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":875.73,"endTime":878.7,"body":"people, they're at death's door."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":879.36,"endTime":881.4,"body":"But what we know is that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":879.36,"endTime":881.4,"body":"there's, this is this is one"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":881.4,"endTime":884.82,"body":"person, right? He's a recluse."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":881.4,"endTime":884.82,"body":"He lives very, very healthy"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":884.82,"endTime":887.94,"body":"life. He has no friends. He has"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":884.82,"endTime":887.94,"body":"no family. He's a hermit, and"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":887.94,"endTime":890.82,"body":"you contribute nothing to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":887.94,"endTime":890.82,"body":"society, and he never will. But"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":890.82,"endTime":893.76,"body":"he has very, very healthy heart,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":890.82,"endTime":893.76,"body":"a very healthy lungs, very"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":893.76,"endTime":897.45,"body":"healthy kidneys. And the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":893.76,"endTime":897.45,"body":"challenge to utilitarianism here"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":897.45,"endTime":901.95,"body":"is well why not kidnap this"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":897.45,"endTime":901.95,"body":"person? Cut out his organs and"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":901.95,"endTime":904.98,"body":"transplant them into the more"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":901.95,"endTime":904.98,"body":"popular, loved socially"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":904.98,"endTime":908.76,"body":"productive people save five"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":904.98,"endTime":908.76,"body":"lives five lives which are"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":908.76,"endTime":911.94,"body":"likely to go on to benefit"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":908.76,"endTime":911.94,"body":"humanity immensely. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":911.94,"endTime":915.12,"body":"sacrifice the one hermit that no"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":911.94,"endTime":915.12,"body":"one cares about. No one knows"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":915.12,"endTime":918.3,"body":"him, and he's never gonna"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":915.12,"endTime":918.3,"body":"contribute anything anyway. The"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":918.3,"endTime":923.22,"body":"challenge has utilitarian is"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":918.3,"endTime":923.22,"body":"what's wrong with doing that?"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":923.28,"endTime":925.77,"body":"What's wrong with ambushing"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":923.28,"endTime":925.77,"body":"people and stealing their organs"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":925.77,"endTime":929.01,"body":"and giving them to more quote"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":925.77,"endTime":929.01,"body":"unquote, deserving individuals?"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":929.04,"endTime":931.95,"body":"Well, utilitarianism"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":929.04,"endTime":931.95,"body":"says nothing, it says you should"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":931.95,"endTime":932.52,"body":"do it."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":933.029,"endTime":936.629,"body":"Well, the consistent"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":933.029,"endTime":936.629,"body":"utilitarianism says nothing. The"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":936.629,"endTime":938.939,"body":"consistent, hardheaded,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":936.629,"endTime":938.939,"body":"utilitarian says, look, you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":938.939,"endTime":942.449,"body":"know, you find that that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":938.939,"endTime":942.449,"body":"squeamish, and you find that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":942.449,"endTime":945.629,"body":"unpleasant. But that's because"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":942.449,"endTime":945.629,"body":"you're saddled with an outdated"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":945.629,"endTime":950.009,"body":"morality that can't make these"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":945.629,"endTime":950.009,"body":"kinds of hard choices. At that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":950.009,"endTime":952.769,"body":"point, I think the philosopher"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":950.009,"endTime":952.769,"body":"Bernard Williams, who you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":952.769,"endTime":955.799,"body":"mentioned earlier, really does"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":952.769,"endTime":955.799,"body":"have the right answer, which is"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":955.799,"endTime":958.529,"body":"the only thing you need to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":955.799,"endTime":958.529,"body":"resist utilitarianism at that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":958.529,"endTime":961.379,"body":"point, is a sufficient"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":958.529,"endTime":961.379,"body":"willingness not to be bullied,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":961.799,"endTime":965.039,"body":"right? That if the utilitarian"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":961.799,"endTime":965.039,"body":"says the right thing to do is to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":965.039,"endTime":967.649,"body":"kidnap people and steal their"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":965.039,"endTime":967.649,"body":"organs? Well, then we're at a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":967.649,"endTime":970.619,"body":"point where there's not much"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":967.649,"endTime":970.619,"body":"left to be said in terms of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":970.619,"endTime":974.309,"body":"philosophical analysis. The"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":970.619,"endTime":974.309,"body":"thing to say here is no, you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":974.309,"endTime":977.069,"body":"don't understand why people"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":974.309,"endTime":977.069,"body":"matter and why we'd be in the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":977.069,"endTime":980.579,"body":"business of making ethical"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":977.069,"endTime":980.579,"body":"judgments in the first place. So"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":980.579,"endTime":984.209,"body":"the conversations over and I"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":980.579,"endTime":984.209,"body":"tend to think that that's where"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":984.299,"endTime":986.789,"body":"if somebody really wants to say"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":984.299,"endTime":986.789,"body":"the right thing to do is to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":986.789,"endTime":989.819,"body":"steal organs from the innocent,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":986.789,"endTime":989.819,"body":"there's probably nothing I can"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":989.819,"endTime":993.089,"body":"say to convince them. But"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":989.819,"endTime":993.089,"body":"there's a very, very good self"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":993.089,"endTime":995.999,"body":"refutation there about why we"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":993.089,"endTime":995.999,"body":"should probably not want to be"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":995.999,"endTime":997.109,"body":"utilitarians."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":997.44,"endTime":999.75,"body":"It's a self"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":997.44,"endTime":999.75,"body":"refutation, because"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1000.05,"endTime":1002.45,"body":"utilitarianism tells you to"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1000.05,"endTime":1002.45,"body":"steal people's organs. And"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1002.45,"endTime":1004.1,"body":"that's just obviously wrong."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1004.909,"endTime":1007.999,"body":"Exactly. And if the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1004.909,"endTime":1007.999,"body":"utilitarian responses were your"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1008.029,"endTime":1011.059,"body":"idea of obviously morally wrong,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1008.029,"endTime":1011.059,"body":"your intuition, it just needs to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1011.059,"endTime":1013.549,"body":"be rejected in favor of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1011.059,"endTime":1013.549,"body":"utilitarianism. Well, then we"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1013.549,"endTime":1016.789,"body":"need to know why. Why should it"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1013.549,"endTime":1016.789,"body":"be rejected in favor of your 13"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1016.789,"endTime":1017.059,"body":"ism?"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1017.57,"endTime":1020.84,"body":"Well, how about this,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1017.57,"endTime":1020.84,"body":"I just since we're on surgery, I"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1020.84,"endTime":1025.67,"body":"do have to bring up the basic"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1020.84,"endTime":1025.67,"body":"utilitarian line of defense. And"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1025.67,"endTime":1027.65,"body":"we don't have to go too deeply"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1025.67,"endTime":1027.65,"body":"into it. But they'll just say,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1028.01,"endTime":1032.72,"body":"Well, look, we can't make a rule"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1028.01,"endTime":1032.72,"body":"of ambushing people for their"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1032.78,"endTime":1035.99,"body":"organs. Because we don't want to"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1032.78,"endTime":1035.99,"body":"live in a world like that no one"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1035.99,"endTime":1037.61,"body":"would even come into the"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1035.99,"endTime":1037.61,"body":"hospital, because they'd be"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1037.61,"endTime":1039.32,"body":"afraid that as soon as you put"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1037.61,"endTime":1039.32,"body":"them out, you're gonna start"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1039.32,"endTime":1044.18,"body":"looting their bodies. Overall,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1039.32,"endTime":1044.18,"body":"living in a world where we did"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1044.18,"endTime":1048.11,"body":"steal people's organs, would be"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1044.18,"endTime":1048.11,"body":"a worse world. So utilitarianism"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1048.11,"endTime":1052.94,"body":"says, despite the appearances,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1048.11,"endTime":1052.94,"body":"that it would improve utility,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1053.03,"endTime":1056.15,"body":"it's better just to have a rule"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1053.03,"endTime":1056.15,"body":"where we don't steal people's"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1056.15,"endTime":1056.66,"body":"organs."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1057.049,"endTime":1059.449,"body":"Good. So that's the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1057.049,"endTime":1059.449,"body":"standard utilitarian response"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1059.449,"endTime":1062.179,"body":"here, right, which is said,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1059.449,"endTime":1062.179,"body":"Look, you know, you've got to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1062.179,"endTime":1064.219,"body":"think about all the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1062.179,"endTime":1064.219,"body":"consequences, not just the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1064.219,"endTime":1067.159,"body":"consequences of saving these"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1064.219,"endTime":1067.159,"body":"five people, but all the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1067.159,"endTime":1070.459,"body":"consequences. And if we had a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1067.159,"endTime":1070.459,"body":"system where people's organs"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1070.459,"endTime":1073.669,"body":"could be stolen, then actually"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1070.459,"endTime":1073.669,"body":"the overall consequences would"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1073.669,"endTime":1076.549,"body":"be unbalanced worse. So we would"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1073.669,"endTime":1076.549,"body":"do that. So don't worry,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1076.669,"endTime":1080.029,"body":"utilitarianism doesn't license"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1076.669,"endTime":1080.029,"body":"that. But hey, you've got his"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1080.029,"endTime":1084.289,"body":"were doing some good technical"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1080.029,"endTime":1084.289,"body":"work in philosophy by"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1084.289,"endTime":1086.089,"body":"interrogating the thought"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1084.289,"endTime":1086.089,"body":"experiment can be really"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1086.089,"endTime":1088.549,"body":"helpful, because I don't think"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1086.089,"endTime":1088.549,"body":"that's a particularly good"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1088.549,"endTime":1092.119,"body":"response from the utilitarian."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1088.549,"endTime":1092.119,"body":"Because what the utilitarian is"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1092.119,"endTime":1096.229,"body":"doing, there's gambling, that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1092.119,"endTime":1096.229,"body":"the calculation will come out in"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1096.229,"endTime":1099.559,"body":"a way that fits with ordinary"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1096.229,"endTime":1099.559,"body":"morality, intuitions, right?"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1099.949,"endTime":1102.649,"body":"saying, Oh, don't worry, we"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1099.949,"endTime":1102.649,"body":"won't actually make you harvest"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1102.649,"endTime":1105.319,"body":"people's organs. Because you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1102.649,"endTime":1105.319,"body":"know, it would never be the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1105.319,"endTime":1108.109,"body":"right thing to do on our"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1105.319,"endTime":1108.109,"body":"calculation. And I think the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1108.109,"endTime":1111.199,"body":"correct line of response here is"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1108.109,"endTime":1111.199,"body":"Hang on a minute, it's not about"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1111.199,"endTime":1116.209,"body":"the calculation. It's not about"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1111.199,"endTime":1116.209,"body":"how that summing up comes out."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1116.509,"endTime":1119.239,"body":"It's about the fact that you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1116.509,"endTime":1119.239,"body":"were even prepared to consider"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1119.239,"endTime":1122.929,"body":"it. Because the utilitarian has"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1119.239,"endTime":1122.929,"body":"to be prepared to consider the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1122.929,"endTime":1127.909,"body":"possibility that it might create"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1122.929,"endTime":1127.909,"body":"the greatest utility to steal"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1127.909,"endTime":1130.129,"body":"people's organs. Because here we"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1127.909,"endTime":1130.129,"body":"can impose, you know, here, we"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1130.129,"endTime":1132.889,"body":"can change the thought"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1130.129,"endTime":1132.889,"body":"experiment, we're only going to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1132.889,"endTime":1135.859,"body":"do it once. And it's going to be"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1132.889,"endTime":1135.859,"body":"completely in secret, no"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1135.859,"endTime":1138.859,"body":"precedents will be set. In fact,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1135.859,"endTime":1138.859,"body":"we're going to pass a law"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1138.889,"endTime":1141.889,"body":"afterwards, banning this kind of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1138.889,"endTime":1141.889,"body":"activity to make sure it never"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1141.889,"endTime":1143.869,"body":"happens again, and you say to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1141.889,"endTime":1143.869,"body":"the utilitarian, I'm going to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1143.869,"endTime":1146.869,"body":"really push you on this, you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1143.869,"endTime":1146.869,"body":"don't get to just declare that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1146.869,"endTime":1149.809,"body":"it will never come out that the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1146.869,"endTime":1149.809,"body":"calculation demands it. Number"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1149.809,"endTime":1153.409,"body":"one, it might demand it. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1149.809,"endTime":1153.409,"body":"secondly, why are you even"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1153.409,"endTime":1157.189,"body":"prepared to think about it in"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1153.409,"endTime":1157.189,"body":"those terms, it shouldn't even"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1157.189,"endTime":1160.579,"body":"be up for debate, ambushing"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1157.189,"endTime":1160.579,"body":"people and stealing their organs"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1160.609,"endTime":1165.019,"body":"is something we just don't do."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1160.609,"endTime":1165.019,"body":"We don't not do it. Just because"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1165.019,"endTime":1167.929,"body":"a calculation said on balance it"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1165.019,"endTime":1167.929,"body":"will lead to worse consequences."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1168.139,"endTime":1170.989,"body":"That's again, the vosper and"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1168.139,"endTime":1170.989,"body":"Williams is very critical of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1170.989,"endTime":1173.839,"body":"utilitarianism said that's the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1170.989,"endTime":1173.839,"body":"kind of thing he called one"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1173.839,"endTime":1176.959,"body":"thought to many. If the reason"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1173.839,"endTime":1176.959,"body":"you think you shouldn't ambush"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1176.959,"endTime":1179.869,"body":"people and steal their organs is"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1176.959,"endTime":1179.869,"body":"because in my unbalance in"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1179.869,"endTime":1183.199,"body":"future lead to unintended bad"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1179.869,"endTime":1183.199,"body":"consequences. You're saying, You"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1183.199,"endTime":1185.569,"body":"don't understand why you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1183.199,"endTime":1185.569,"body":"shouldn't kidnap people and"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1185.569,"endTime":1187.909,"body":"steal their organs. Right? The"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1185.569,"endTime":1187.909,"body":"reason you shouldn't do that is"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1187.909,"endTime":1191.719,"body":"because people have established"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1187.909,"endTime":1191.719,"body":"certain intrinsic moral worth"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1191.719,"endTime":1194.629,"body":"for whom we have respect. They"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1191.719,"endTime":1194.629,"body":"have rights over their own"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1194.629,"endTime":1197.599,"body":"bodies that we again should"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1194.629,"endTime":1197.599,"body":"respect. That's why you don't"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1197.629,"endTime":1200.839,"body":"attack them. Right. Consequences"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1197.629,"endTime":1200.839,"body":"be damned. The calculation be"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1200.839,"endTime":1204.499,"body":"damned here. And the utilitarian"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1200.839,"endTime":1204.499,"body":"can't say that. Because the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1204.499,"endTime":1208.189,"body":"utilitarian can't say that I"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1204.499,"endTime":1208.189,"body":"think something's gone wrong in"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1208.189,"endTime":1209.749,"body":"the way they're thinking about"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1208.189,"endTime":1209.749,"body":"ethics."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1210.319,"endTime":1214.099,"body":"Good. So, with the"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1210.319,"endTime":1214.099,"body":"surgery's thought experiment"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1214.099,"endTime":1217.129,"body":"shows is that sometimes"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1214.099,"endTime":1217.129,"body":"utilitarianism gives you these"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1217.129,"endTime":1221.599,"body":"really gross conclusions. And"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1217.129,"endTime":1221.599,"body":"that's one big objection to it."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1222.559,"endTime":1227.209,"body":"I want to now talk about some"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1222.559,"endTime":1227.209,"body":"examples where utilitarianism"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1227.239,"endTime":1231.319,"body":"doesn't really necessarily give"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1227.239,"endTime":1231.319,"body":"the wrong answer. But it just"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1231.319,"endTime":1235.279,"body":"doesn't capture how we do moral"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1231.319,"endTime":1235.279,"body":"reasoning. So the example I want"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1235.279,"endTime":1238.819,"body":"to start off with is from"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1235.279,"endTime":1238.819,"body":"Bernard Williams article against"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1238.819,"endTime":1244.339,"body":"utilitarianism. And it's about a"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1238.819,"endTime":1244.339,"body":"guy named George. George has"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1244.339,"endTime":1247.729,"body":"just got his PhD in chemistry,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1244.339,"endTime":1247.729,"body":"he's on the job market, he's"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1247.729,"endTime":1252.589,"body":"having a tough time finding a"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1247.729,"endTime":1252.589,"body":"job. And it's getting really"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1252.589,"endTime":1256.669,"body":"stressful because he has a young"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1252.589,"endTime":1256.669,"body":"family, him and his wife have a"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1256.669,"endTime":1261.199,"body":"young child that they're having"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1256.669,"endTime":1261.199,"body":"trouble taking care of. And one"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1261.199,"endTime":1264.769,"body":"of his prof says, I know you're"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1261.199,"endTime":1264.769,"body":"having trouble on the job"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1264.769,"endTime":1267.859,"body":"market. And I know, this really"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1264.769,"endTime":1267.859,"body":"isn't your thing. But I know"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1267.859,"endTime":1272.029,"body":"some people in a biological and"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1267.859,"endTime":1272.029,"body":"chemical weapons factory, I"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1272.029,"endTime":1274.939,"body":"could get you in with them, you"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1272.029,"endTime":1274.939,"body":"could go over design some bio"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1274.939,"endTime":1280.249,"body":"weapons, and that'll solve your"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1274.939,"endTime":1280.249,"body":"feeding your family problem. So"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1280.669,"endTime":1283.069,"body":"what should George do in that"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1280.669,"endTime":1283.069,"body":"situation?"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1284.48,"endTime":1286.85,"body":"So it's actually"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1284.48,"endTime":1286.85,"body":"worse than that. It's not just"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1286.85,"endTime":1289.28,"body":"that if George doesn't take the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1286.85,"endTime":1289.28,"body":"job, his own family will likely"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1289.28,"endTime":1293.81,"body":"be destitute is that this other"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1289.28,"endTime":1293.81,"body":"person, Jackie, will not only do"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1293.81,"endTime":1297.05,"body":"the job, but do it really well."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1293.81,"endTime":1297.05,"body":"And make really, really"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1297.05,"endTime":1300.2,"body":"effective chemical weapons,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1297.05,"endTime":1300.2,"body":"George could do the job, you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1300.2,"endTime":1303.11,"body":"know, just well enough to not"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1300.2,"endTime":1303.11,"body":"get fired, but kind of sort of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1303.11,"endTime":1306.26,"body":"Bo kind of grit inside the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1303.11,"endTime":1306.26,"body":"machine whilst also feeding his"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1306.26,"endTime":1308.93,"body":"family. If he doesn't take the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1306.26,"endTime":1308.93,"body":"job, Jackie's gonna take it. So"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1308.93,"endTime":1312.47,"body":"not only will his own family be"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1308.93,"endTime":1312.47,"body":"destitute, but someone who's"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1312.5,"endTime":1316.34,"body":"going to do worse things in the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1312.5,"endTime":1316.34,"body":"position will get the job. So"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1316.34,"endTime":1317.3,"body":"that's the challenge."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1318.589,"endTime":1321.859,"body":"Right? So on the"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1318.589,"endTime":1321.859,"body":"utilitarian view, he should just"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1321.859,"endTime":1324.559,"body":"take the job because it's gonna,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1321.859,"endTime":1324.559,"body":"he's probably going to do less"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1324.559,"endTime":1327.589,"body":"good for the biochemical weapons"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1324.559,"endTime":1327.589,"body":"industry, assuming you think"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1327.589,"endTime":1331.099,"body":"that's bad, and he's going to"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1327.589,"endTime":1331.099,"body":"benefit his family. So overall,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1331.129,"endTime":1336.289,"body":"it's just win win. Whereas if he"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1331.129,"endTime":1336.289,"body":"lets Jackie, take the job soon,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1336.289,"endTime":1339.679,"body":"she's gonna be hiding viruses"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1336.289,"endTime":1339.679,"body":"and bats shutting down world"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1339.679,"endTime":1340.579,"body":"economies."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1341.329,"endTime":1344.749,"body":"Exactly. And, and"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1341.329,"endTime":1344.749,"body":"George's family will stuff. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1344.749,"endTime":1347.239,"body":"so the interesting point about"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1344.749,"endTime":1347.239,"body":"this thought experiment is the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1347.239,"endTime":1349.549,"body":"Williams wants to make this"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1347.239,"endTime":1349.549,"body":"really clear. And people often"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1349.549,"endTime":1350.509,"body":"miss this, which is that?"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1351.98,"endTime":1353.45,"body":"Well, first of all, I"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1351.98,"endTime":1353.45,"body":"should say that I don't want to"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1353.45,"endTime":1355.67,"body":"take the job as George I"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1353.45,"endTime":1355.67,"body":"imagined, okay, so"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1356.51,"endTime":1358.79,"body":"I get that. But you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1356.51,"endTime":1358.79,"body":"can also see how someone like"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1358.79,"endTime":1362.81,"body":"George might take it, right? How"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1358.79,"endTime":1362.81,"body":"there's a genuine conflict here."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1362.84,"endTime":1365.96,"body":"Like there's something really,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1362.84,"endTime":1365.96,"body":"you know, that he may decide on"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1365.96,"endTime":1368.39,"body":"balance, he has to take it, he"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1365.96,"endTime":1368.39,"body":"doesn't want to, but in order to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1368.39,"endTime":1371.0,"body":"feed his family and to stop"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1368.39,"endTime":1371.0,"body":"Jackie, he's going to do this"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1371.0,"endTime":1375.41,"body":"thing. I wouldn't blame him"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1371.0,"endTime":1375.41,"body":"exactly. You wouldn't blame him"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1375.44,"endTime":1378.62,"body":"if he did. But you could also"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1375.44,"endTime":1378.62,"body":"understand if he refused, right?"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1379.1,"endTime":1382.07,"body":"And what will influence to say"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1379.1,"endTime":1382.07,"body":"here is, there's genuine"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1382.07,"endTime":1386.18,"body":"ambiguity in this scenario,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1382.07,"endTime":1386.18,"body":"right? There's a genuine sense"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1386.18,"endTime":1390.02,"body":"of which there's a real tragedy"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1386.18,"endTime":1390.02,"body":"for George's decision here. On"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1390.02,"endTime":1393.23,"body":"the one hand, if he does take"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1390.02,"endTime":1393.23,"body":"the job, then he's going to be"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1393.26,"endTime":1397.04,"body":"himself directly implicated in"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1393.26,"endTime":1397.04,"body":"producing chemical weapons, and"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1397.04,"endTime":1399.62,"body":"doing something which he thinks"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1397.04,"endTime":1399.62,"body":"is deeply morally wrong, right,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1399.62,"endTime":1402.23,"body":"and there's a cost there to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1399.62,"endTime":1402.23,"body":"George, that's something that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1402.23,"endTime":1406.28,"body":"should matter. On the other"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1402.23,"endTime":1406.28,"body":"hand, if he doesn't do it, then"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1406.28,"endTime":1409.67,"body":"there are objectively going to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1406.28,"endTime":1409.67,"body":"be bad consequences, you know,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1409.67,"endTime":1413.18,"body":"more people will likely die, his"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1409.67,"endTime":1413.18,"body":"own family will suffer. And one"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1413.18,"endTime":1416.36,"body":"thing that Williams wants to say"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1413.18,"endTime":1416.36,"body":"here is, there's a weight sense"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1416.36,"endTime":1420.77,"body":"in which utilitarianism can't"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1416.36,"endTime":1420.77,"body":"even make sense of there being a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1420.77,"endTime":1424.31,"body":"cost here, or some kind of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1420.77,"endTime":1424.31,"body":"genuine tragedy at stake."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1424.55,"endTime":1427.01,"body":"utilitarianism wants to say,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1424.55,"endTime":1427.01,"body":"look, it's obvious what he"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1427.01,"endTime":1431.0,"body":"should do, he should just take"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1427.01,"endTime":1431.0,"body":"the job. But it's not obvious."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1431.3,"endTime":1433.1,"body":"The utilitarian wants to say,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1431.3,"endTime":1433.1,"body":"Well, look, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1433.1,"endTime":1436.13,"body":"calculation is obvious, Giorgia,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1433.1,"endTime":1436.13,"body":"take the job, what's the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1436.13,"endTime":1440.3,"body":"problem? Move on. But that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1436.13,"endTime":1440.3,"body":"reveals a certain tone deafness"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1440.3,"endTime":1442.91,"body":"to the texture of ethical"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1440.3,"endTime":1442.91,"body":"experience, that, again, I"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1442.91,"endTime":1444.59,"body":"think, is important to us."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1445.669,"endTime":1449.509,"body":"That seems true to"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1445.669,"endTime":1449.509,"body":"me. And this happens to a lot of"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1449.509,"endTime":1452.359,"body":"people when they're thinking"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1449.509,"endTime":1452.359,"body":"about their career and trying to"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1452.359,"endTime":1457.399,"body":"choose a job, right? Because"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1452.359,"endTime":1457.399,"body":"biochemical weapons is just an"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1457.399,"endTime":1461.389,"body":"extravagantly evil one. But"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1457.399,"endTime":1461.389,"body":"there are lots of jobs that"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1461.389,"endTime":1465.409,"body":"people might think are ethically"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1461.389,"endTime":1465.409,"body":"compromised. I mean, I know a"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1465.409,"endTime":1468.769,"body":"lot of scientists who went to"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1465.409,"endTime":1468.769,"body":"research for big pharmaceutical"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1468.769,"endTime":1473.359,"body":"companies, and a lot of people"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1468.769,"endTime":1473.359,"body":"think they're unethical, or I"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1473.359,"endTime":1475.909,"body":"know a lot of people who into"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1473.359,"endTime":1475.909,"body":"consulting or public relations,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1475.909,"endTime":1479.509,"body":"or at least considered it or"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1475.909,"endTime":1479.509,"body":"wound up working for Facebook,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1479.509,"endTime":1485.119,"body":"or Google or all sorts of big"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1479.509,"endTime":1485.119,"body":"companies that a lot of people"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1485.119,"endTime":1490.519,"body":"think are not necessarily doing"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1485.119,"endTime":1490.519,"body":"good in the world. And my point"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1490.519,"endTime":1493.189,"body":"is that when people are"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1490.519,"endTime":1493.189,"body":"contemplating this question, it"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1493.189,"endTime":1497.089,"body":"doesn't really always seem like"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1493.189,"endTime":1497.089,"body":"just utilitarian calculation."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1497.449,"endTime":1500.899,"body":"That's not all they're thinking"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1497.449,"endTime":1500.899,"body":"of. They're also thinking About"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1500.989,"endTime":1503.719,"body":"what they personally want to do"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1500.989,"endTime":1503.719,"body":"and what kind of person they"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1503.719,"endTime":1506.779,"body":"want to become through whatever"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1503.719,"endTime":1506.779,"body":"career they"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1506.78,"endTime":1507.32,"body":"choose."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1508.01,"endTime":1511.04,"body":"Yeah, so this is why"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1508.01,"endTime":1511.04,"body":"I am quite suspicious of the so"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1511.04,"endTime":1513.38,"body":"called effective altruism"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1511.04,"endTime":1513.38,"body":"movement, as are a number of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1513.38,"endTime":1517.85,"body":"others. Just to recap, the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1513.38,"endTime":1517.85,"body":"effective altruists. idea is if"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1517.85,"endTime":1521.48,"body":"you take your salary and give a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1517.85,"endTime":1521.48,"body":"large proportion of it away, you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1521.48,"endTime":1524.84,"body":"can do more good than say, if"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1521.48,"endTime":1524.84,"body":"you work for a charity, we're"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1524.84,"endTime":1527.51,"body":"earning less money, but keep it"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1524.84,"endTime":1527.51,"body":"for yourself. So instead of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1527.51,"endTime":1530.24,"body":"working for Save the Children,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1527.51,"endTime":1530.24,"body":"the charity and trying to help"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1530.24,"endTime":1532.58,"body":"children directly, you what you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1530.24,"endTime":1532.58,"body":"should do is go and work for"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1532.58,"endTime":1536.81,"body":"JPMorgan get a huge salary and"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1532.58,"endTime":1536.81,"body":"give 90% of it away to good"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1536.81,"endTime":1541.31,"body":"causes, which are more effective"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1536.81,"endTime":1541.31,"body":"at promoting social change or"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1541.34,"endTime":1545.03,"body":"improving the lives of others. I"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1541.34,"endTime":1545.03,"body":"think a lot of people share this"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1545.03,"endTime":1549.08,"body":"suspicion that there's something"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1545.03,"endTime":1549.08,"body":"morally distasteful about the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1549.08,"endTime":1552.53,"body":"attitude being reared here,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1549.08,"endTime":1552.53,"body":"which is it's totally fine to go"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1552.53,"endTime":1555.23,"body":"and work for the kinds of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1552.53,"endTime":1555.23,"body":"corporations which you have lots"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1555.23,"endTime":1557.9,"body":"of reason to be very suspicious"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1555.23,"endTime":1557.9,"body":"of many of whom have done, and"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1557.9,"endTime":1561.62,"body":"that's damage to our society and"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1557.9,"endTime":1561.62,"body":"look at what Facebook and Google"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1561.62,"endTime":1565.22,"body":"have done to the democratic"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1561.62,"endTime":1565.22,"body":"process in the last 15 years, it"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1565.22,"endTime":1569.45,"body":"seems rather problematic to say,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1565.22,"endTime":1569.45,"body":"Oh, well, you know, just go work"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1569.45,"endTime":1571.7,"body":"for Google. But make sure you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1569.45,"endTime":1571.7,"body":"give a lot of your salary away"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1571.7,"endTime":1574.19,"body":"to buy mosquito nets for people"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1571.7,"endTime":1574.19,"body":"in Africa, because that was"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1574.19,"endTime":1576.98,"body":"promoted the most good overall,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1574.19,"endTime":1576.98,"body":"you know, nothing to worry about"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1576.98,"endTime":1577.94,"body":"here, move on."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1579.109,"endTime":1583.459,"body":"Good, good. I just"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1579.109,"endTime":1583.459,"body":"want to take a second to explain"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1583.459,"endTime":1586.699,"body":"effective altruism, and why it"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1583.459,"endTime":1586.699,"body":"seems so weird to people and"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1586.849,"endTime":1590.959,"body":"made so many headlines. So"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1586.849,"endTime":1590.959,"body":"effective altruism. This is an"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1590.959,"endTime":1594.469,"body":"organization I believe it"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1590.959,"endTime":1594.469,"body":"started in Oxford. And it's kind"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1594.469,"endTime":1598.879,"body":"of directed at people who are"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1594.469,"endTime":1598.879,"body":"upper middle class who are high"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1598.879,"endTime":1602.539,"body":"performing young people who want"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1598.879,"endTime":1602.539,"body":"to do good in the world. And"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1602.569,"endTime":1605.659,"body":"they're inspired by Peter"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1602.569,"endTime":1605.659,"body":"Singer. So they take a"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1605.659,"endTime":1608.209,"body":"utilitarian approach. And they"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1605.659,"endTime":1608.209,"body":"say, Okay, if you want to do"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1608.209,"endTime":1611.599,"body":"good in the world, if you really"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1608.209,"endTime":1611.599,"body":"want to save lives, we know that"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1611.599,"endTime":1614.959,"body":"there's places at the top of"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1611.599,"endTime":1614.959,"body":"society jobs where you can get"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1614.959,"endTime":1619.609,"body":"paid a lot of money, and you can"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1614.959,"endTime":1619.609,"body":"get into those. So instead of"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1619.609,"endTime":1624.019,"body":"wasting your life, volunteering"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1619.609,"endTime":1624.019,"body":"or working for a charity, go"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1624.019,"endTime":1628.009,"body":"work for Goldman, get that big"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1624.019,"endTime":1628.009,"body":"salary, get that fat bonus. And"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1628.009,"endTime":1632.329,"body":"then when you get it, instead of"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1628.009,"endTime":1632.329,"body":"spending it on nice cars, and"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1632.329,"endTime":1635.659,"body":"vacations and apartments in"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1632.329,"endTime":1635.659,"body":"London, just fork it over to the"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1635.659,"endTime":1638.629,"body":"Gates Foundation, because Bill"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1635.659,"endTime":1638.629,"body":"Gates has got a really good deal"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1638.629,"endTime":1643.159,"body":"on mosquito nets. And that will"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1638.629,"endTime":1643.159,"body":"actually be the most efficient"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1643.159,"endTime":1646.819,"body":"and effective way to save lives."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1643.159,"endTime":1646.819,"body":"It's better than working for a"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1646.819,"endTime":1652.639,"body":"charity. So that is the most"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1646.819,"endTime":1652.639,"body":"moral thing to do. And the"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1652.639,"endTime":1657.019,"body":"reason why I think this is so"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1652.639,"endTime":1657.019,"body":"alienating and weird and"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1657.049,"endTime":1661.489,"body":"interesting is because you got"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1657.049,"endTime":1661.489,"body":"these people, the premise is"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1661.489,"endTime":1664.369,"body":"someone who just wants to go and"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1661.489,"endTime":1664.369,"body":"do good in the world to help as"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1664.369,"endTime":1668.029,"body":"much as they can. And you're"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1664.369,"endTime":1668.029,"body":"advising them to go into this"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1668.029,"endTime":1670.909,"body":"completely opposite culture,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1668.029,"endTime":1670.909,"body":"this kind of corporate Shark"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1670.909,"endTime":1673.549,"body":"Tank where money is the most"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1670.909,"endTime":1673.549,"body":"important thing. And they say,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1673.579,"endTime":1677.209,"body":"go live that life, live the life"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1673.579,"endTime":1677.209,"body":"of a hyper competitive"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1677.209,"endTime":1681.589,"body":"overachieving investment banker,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1677.209,"endTime":1681.589,"body":"but do it in the service of"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1681.589,"endTime":1687.829,"body":"charity. And that just feels"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1681.589,"endTime":1687.829,"body":"kind of weird and odd advice to"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1687.829,"endTime":1692.689,"body":"give someone. And so that"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1687.829,"endTime":1692.689,"body":"weirdness might reveal that"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1692.689,"endTime":1695.839,"body":"there's something fishy about"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1692.689,"endTime":1695.839,"body":"utilitarianism, right."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1696.23,"endTime":1699.23,"body":"So I have a thought"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1696.23,"endTime":1699.23,"body":"about that. So I think what it"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1699.23,"endTime":1702.65,"body":"is, is that utilitarianism wants"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1699.23,"endTime":1702.65,"body":"to reduce everybody's life to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1702.65,"endTime":1707.18,"body":"nothing but a kind of cipher of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1702.65,"endTime":1707.18,"body":"utility promotion. So your life"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1707.33,"endTime":1710.45,"body":"isn't something which is"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1707.33,"endTime":1710.45,"body":"internally complex and"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1710.66,"endTime":1713.81,"body":"meaningful, specifically to you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1710.66,"endTime":1713.81,"body":"and your family. And it was"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1713.81,"endTime":1716.9,"body":"lived in a particular context"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1713.81,"endTime":1716.9,"body":"and a particular history, which"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1716.9,"endTime":1720.56,"body":"is ultimately extremely complex,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1716.9,"endTime":1720.56,"body":"when your life really boils down"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1720.56,"endTime":1724.58,"body":"to is a little node and a giant"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1720.56,"endTime":1724.58,"body":"calculation that you can"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1724.58,"endTime":1728.24,"body":"influence by doing certain"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1724.58,"endTime":1728.24,"body":"things to withstand pleasure in"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1728.24,"endTime":1731.42,"body":"one direction rather than"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1728.24,"endTime":1731.42,"body":"another. And I think what a lot"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1731.42,"endTime":1735.17,"body":"of people find intuitively"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1731.42,"endTime":1735.17,"body":"repulsive, about utilitarian at"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1735.17,"endTime":1738.47,"body":"this level, if they can't always"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1735.17,"endTime":1738.47,"body":"articulate it, is that your life"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1738.5,"endTime":1743.0,"body":"becomes nothing but a cipher for"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1738.5,"endTime":1743.0,"body":"utility. And that's all it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1743.0,"endTime":1745.01,"body":"worth. That's all anybody's life"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1743.0,"endTime":1745.01,"body":"is worth."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1746.119,"endTime":1748.579,"body":"Your slave to those"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1746.119,"endTime":1748.579,"body":"starving. Yeah, even"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1748.58,"endTime":1750.86,"body":"they themselves"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1748.58,"endTime":1750.86,"body":"don't matter as a starving"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1750.86,"endTime":1754.4,"body":"Bengali kids. They matter simply"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1750.86,"endTime":1754.4,"body":"as negatives in the great"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1754.43,"endTime":1758.21,"body":"spreadsheet. And something's"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1754.43,"endTime":1758.21,"body":"getting deeply lost there about"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1758.21,"endTime":1761.54,"body":"what human beings are. So on the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1758.21,"endTime":1761.54,"body":"one hand, I love that the great"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1761.54,"endTime":1764.51,"body":"spreadsheet, yeah, that's a good"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1761.54,"endTime":1764.51,"body":"one, which of course, nobody's"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1764.51,"endTime":1767.81,"body":"ever actually been able to fill"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1764.51,"endTime":1767.81,"body":"in or do any real calculations"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1767.81,"endTime":1769.79,"body":"on that's important thing, of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1767.81,"endTime":1769.79,"body":"course, to always remember about"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1769.79,"endTime":1773.0,"body":"utilitarianism, it promises to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1769.79,"endTime":1773.0,"body":"do these great calculations of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1773.33,"endTime":1776.15,"body":"promoting pleasure and avoiding"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1773.33,"endTime":1776.15,"body":"pain or whatever, but no one's"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1776.15,"endTime":1779.84,"body":"ever actually come up with a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1776.15,"endTime":1779.84,"body":"reliable, you know, algorithm to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1779.84,"endTime":1782.72,"body":"do it and how could they How"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1779.84,"endTime":1782.72,"body":"could it be possible to reduce"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1782.96,"endTime":1786.44,"body":"the sum total of human lived"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1782.96,"endTime":1786.44,"body":"experience to preferred"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1786.44,"endTime":1789.62,"body":"satisfactions. And again, that's"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1786.44,"endTime":1789.62,"body":"where it's important to just"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1789.62,"endTime":1793.13,"body":"kind of say, hang on a minute,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1789.62,"endTime":1793.13,"body":"this intuitive idea that, you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1793.13,"endTime":1796.64,"body":"know, it's good to help the many"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1793.13,"endTime":1796.64,"body":"at the expense of the few when"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1796.64,"endTime":1800.24,"body":"possible, if there's a kind of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1796.64,"endTime":1800.24,"body":"democratic idea there. There's a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1800.24,"endTime":1803.12,"body":"social reforming idea here."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1800.24,"endTime":1803.12,"body":"There's a history behind"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1803.12,"endTime":1805.85,"body":"utilitarianism, which is emerged"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1803.12,"endTime":1805.85,"body":"in the 19th century amongst"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1805.85,"endTime":1809.63,"body":"radicals, who looked at a deeply"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1805.85,"endTime":1809.63,"body":"unfair, deeply unequal world and"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1809.63,"endTime":1812.69,"body":"wanted to make it better. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1809.63,"endTime":1812.69,"body":"there's still times when a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1812.69,"endTime":1816.32,"body":"utilitarian argument is welcome"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1812.69,"endTime":1816.32,"body":"in certain political contexts."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1816.53,"endTime":1820.37,"body":"The problem is, is when it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1816.53,"endTime":1820.37,"body":"taken too far, and presumes to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1820.37,"endTime":1825.05,"body":"encompass everything it presumes"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1820.37,"endTime":1825.05,"body":"to be the only game in town. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1825.05,"endTime":1828.38,"body":"that's when it's appropriate to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1825.05,"endTime":1828.38,"body":"step back and say, hang on a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1828.38,"endTime":1831.98,"body":"minute, that can't be the right"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1828.38,"endTime":1831.98,"body":"way to think about my life or"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1831.98,"endTime":1832.91,"body":"your life."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1835.369,"endTime":1838.249,"body":"How do you tell when"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1835.369,"endTime":1838.249,"body":"it's been taken too far."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1838.46,"endTime":1842.15,"body":"So when it's failing"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1838.46,"endTime":1842.15,"body":"to understand things that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1842.78,"endTime":1846.86,"body":"ordinary human beings can get a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1842.78,"endTime":1846.86,"body":"grip on, and understand as being"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1847.28,"endTime":1851.57,"body":"things that matter?"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1847.28,"endTime":1851.57,"body":"utilitarianism has lost its way."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1851.72,"endTime":1853.76,"body":"And again, the important point"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1851.72,"endTime":1853.76,"body":"here, and here, I think we can"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1853.76,"endTime":1856.94,"body":"come back to Williams is another"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1853.76,"endTime":1856.94,"body":"famous example, is it's not just"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1856.94,"endTime":1860.33,"body":"about utilitarianism coming up"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1856.94,"endTime":1860.33,"body":"with the wrong outcomes. It's"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1860.33,"endTime":1863.63,"body":"not just about it, declaring"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1860.33,"endTime":1863.63,"body":"things that we don't like,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1863.63,"endTime":1866.51,"body":"because we don't like the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1863.63,"endTime":1866.51,"body":"consequences. So in the example"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1866.51,"endTime":1870.26,"body":"we had before of cutting up"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1866.51,"endTime":1870.26,"body":"people's organs, we just think"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1870.29,"endTime":1873.29,"body":"you thought terrorism has the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1870.29,"endTime":1873.29,"body":"wrong answer there, right? It's"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1873.29,"endTime":1875.45,"body":"just come up with the answer"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1873.29,"endTime":1875.45,"body":"says, Go kidnap people and steal"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1875.45,"endTime":1877.64,"body":"their organs. And we like that."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1875.45,"endTime":1877.64,"body":"No, that's the wrong answer."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1877.67,"endTime":1881.18,"body":"That's not acceptable. But"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1877.67,"endTime":1881.18,"body":"utilitarianism can also go"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1881.18,"endTime":1884.57,"body":"deeply wrong when it gets the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1881.18,"endTime":1884.57,"body":"right answer, but in the wrong"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1884.57,"endTime":1889.49,"body":"kinds of ways, or in ways that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1884.57,"endTime":1889.49,"body":"reduce important aspects of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1889.49,"endTime":1892.52,"body":"ethical life out of the picture"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1889.49,"endTime":1892.52,"body":"in a way that we should resist."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1892.79,"endTime":1896.57,"body":"And this is what Williams is so"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1892.79,"endTime":1896.57,"body":"called Jim and the Indians"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1896.6,"endTime":1899.33,"body":"example. And I'm using the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1896.6,"endTime":1899.33,"body":"original terminology because"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1899.33,"endTime":1902.0,"body":"it's a very famous philosophical"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1899.33,"endTime":1902.0,"body":"thought experiment. Of course,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1902.0,"endTime":1905.39,"body":"we, we probably wouldn't use"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1902.0,"endTime":1905.39,"body":"that language now. But it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1905.39,"endTime":1907.91,"body":"thing for clarity for those who"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1905.39,"endTime":1907.91,"body":"maybe getting some recall from"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1907.91,"endTime":1911.69,"body":"the university days or whatever."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1907.91,"endTime":1911.69,"body":"It is the so called gym in the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1911.69,"endTime":1914.81,"body":"Indians thought experiment. So"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1911.69,"endTime":1914.81,"body":"Clif Mark, what do you remember"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1914.81,"endTime":1915.62,"body":"of this? This?"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1917.72,"endTime":1920.93,"body":"One gym is a vacation"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1917.72,"endTime":1920.93,"body":"somewhere in South America, he"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1920.93,"endTime":1926.54,"body":"walks into the town square"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1920.93,"endTime":1926.54,"body":"there, he finds a sweaty, fat,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1926.54,"endTime":1930.38,"body":"Pedro have a military officer,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1926.54,"endTime":1930.38,"body":"maybe some kind of Death Squad"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1930.38,"endTime":1935.24,"body":"guy. And he's about to execute"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1930.38,"endTime":1935.24,"body":"20 indigenous people Indians."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1935.45,"endTime":1938.87,"body":"And he says, Yeah, I'm about to"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1935.45,"endTime":1938.87,"body":"kill these guys. But hey, Jim,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1939.53,"endTime":1943.01,"body":"you're a great honored foreigner"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1939.53,"endTime":1943.01,"body":"that makes it a special day,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1943.4,"endTime":1946.13,"body":"I'll give you the chance to"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1943.4,"endTime":1946.13,"body":"shoot one of these guys. And"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1946.13,"endTime":1951.53,"body":"then we'll let the rest of them"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1946.13,"endTime":1951.53,"body":"go. Exactly. And so and so Jim"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1951.53,"endTime":1954.77,"body":"is faced with this choice. He's"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1951.53,"endTime":1954.77,"body":"got to kill one of these people."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1954.98,"endTime":1958.76,"body":"Some of them are defiant, but"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1954.98,"endTime":1958.76,"body":"most of them are terrified and"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1958.76,"endTime":1962.3,"body":"begging him to shoot one of"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1958.76,"endTime":1962.3,"body":"them. So at least most of them"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1962.3,"endTime":1966.14,"body":"can live. And so that's the"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1962.3,"endTime":1966.14,"body":"thought experiment. And it's"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1966.17,"endTime":1968.66,"body":"what should Jim be thinking"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1966.17,"endTime":1968.66,"body":"about when he makes this"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1968.66,"endTime":1972.05,"body":"decision? What should exactly?"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1968.66,"endTime":1972.05,"body":"And what Williams says is Look,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1972.26,"endTime":1975.95,"body":"the utilitarian answer here is"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":1972.26,"endTime":1975.95,"body":"ultimately the correct one,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1975.98,"endTime":1978.02,"body":"the utilitarian"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1975.98,"endTime":1978.02,"body":"answer here is he's got to shoot"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1978.02,"endTime":1981.47,"body":"one, he's got to shoot one"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1978.02,"endTime":1981.47,"body":"Indian person, indigenous"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1981.47,"endTime":1985.55,"body":"person, because if it doesn't,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1981.47,"endTime":1985.55,"body":"20 you're gonna die. And we can"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1985.55,"endTime":1989.96,"body":"all agree that one person dying"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1985.55,"endTime":1989.96,"body":"is less bad than 20 people"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1990.02,"endTime":1993.44,"body":"dying. But what Williams wants"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1990.02,"endTime":1993.44,"body":"to draw attention to is how much"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1993.44,"endTime":1996.26,"body":"else is going on in this"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1993.44,"endTime":1996.26,"body":"scenario? So you described it"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1996.26,"endTime":1998.09,"body":"really well there, Cliff, you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1996.26,"endTime":1998.09,"body":"know, some of these people are"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1998.09,"endTime":2001.87,"body":"terrified. They are crying, some"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":1998.09,"endTime":2001.87,"body":"of them may be dedicating"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2001.87,"endTime":2005.02,"body":"themselves because they already"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2001.87,"endTime":2005.02,"body":"know, Pedro is there sweating"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2005.02,"endTime":2007.63,"body":"away laughing because he does"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2005.02,"endTime":2007.63,"body":"this every day, and he gets a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2007.63,"endTime":2010.99,"body":"kick out of it. And poor Jim,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2007.63,"endTime":2010.99,"body":"poor Jim, who's just out in the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2011.02,"endTime":2013.72,"body":"in the jungle collecting his"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2011.02,"endTime":2013.72,"body":"botany samples, he didn't want"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2013.72,"endTime":2016.0,"body":"any part of this. He's never"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2013.72,"endTime":2016.0,"body":"held a gun before. He doesn't"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2016.0,"endTime":2019.03,"body":"want to kill anybody. He's"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2016.0,"endTime":2019.03,"body":"terrified because he's terrified"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2019.03,"endTime":2022.72,"body":"that Pedro is going to shoot him"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2019.03,"endTime":2022.72,"body":"if he doesn't engage. So there's"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2022.72,"endTime":2028.78,"body":"a real grittiness and visceral,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2022.72,"endTime":2028.78,"body":"emotional, psychological horror"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2028.78,"endTime":2032.02,"body":"to this situation, which"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2028.78,"endTime":2032.02,"body":"utilitarianism encourages us to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2032.02,"endTime":2035.14,"body":"forget about it right, or simply"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2032.02,"endTime":2035.14,"body":"to turn into another part of the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2035.14,"endTime":2037.75,"body":"calculation. But the really"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2035.14,"endTime":2037.75,"body":"important point Williams wants"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2037.75,"endTime":2042.04,"body":"to make here is, let's say Jim,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2037.75,"endTime":2042.04,"body":"disgusted and horrified,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2042.04,"endTime":2044.89,"body":"terrified as yours decides,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2042.04,"endTime":2044.89,"body":"look, you know, there's 19"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2044.89,"endTime":2047.14,"body":"people here, we're going to live"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2044.89,"endTime":2047.14,"body":"if I just kill this one person,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2047.17,"endTime":2051.19,"body":"I have to do it. And let's say"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2047.17,"endTime":2051.19,"body":"Jim does it he does what the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2051.19,"endTime":2055.87,"body":"utilitarian says and shoots one"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2051.19,"endTime":2055.87,"body":"person to save 19 and Pedro man"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2055.87,"endTime":2059.65,"body":"of his word, at least for today."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2055.87,"endTime":2059.65,"body":"That's the other 19 go. And then"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2059.65,"endTime":2063.79,"body":"the question here is what does"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2059.65,"endTime":2063.79,"body":"the utilitarian Miss from the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2063.79,"endTime":2064.42,"body":"scenario?"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2064.9,"endTime":2066.97,"body":"Right? Because the"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2064.9,"endTime":2066.97,"body":"utilitarian says, Well done,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2066.97,"endTime":2069.16,"body":"Jim, you should be proud of"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2066.97,"endTime":2069.16,"body":"yourself. You shot the guy you"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2069.16,"endTime":2072.19,"body":"save 19 people go home, treat"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2069.16,"endTime":2072.19,"body":"yourself on the plane has"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2072.19,"endTime":2074.35,"body":"actually talked to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2072.19,"endTime":2074.35,"body":"and Williams and said that can't"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2074.35,"endTime":2077.77,"body":"be right. If that really was"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2074.35,"endTime":2077.77,"body":"Jim's attitude, he'd be a some"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2077.77,"endTime":2080.95,"body":"kind of psychopath. If Jim's"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2077.77,"endTime":2080.95,"body":"attitude was really Oh, well,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2080.95,"endTime":2084.34,"body":"you know, place with this"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2080.95,"endTime":2084.34,"body":"choice. Did my calculation save"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2084.34,"endTime":2088.57,"body":"19 killed one, pretty good day"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2084.34,"endTime":2088.57,"body":"think I'll have a cocktail that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2088.57,"endTime":2091.54,"body":"would repulse us and it should"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2088.57,"endTime":2091.54,"body":"repulse us. Again, the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2091.54,"endTime":2094.66,"body":"utilitarian here is missing the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2091.54,"endTime":2094.66,"body":"point, which is that what Jim"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2094.66,"endTime":2098.56,"body":"has been forced to do is violate"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2094.66,"endTime":2098.56,"body":"his own integrity. He's been"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2098.56,"endTime":2102.43,"body":"forced to commit horrific act of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2098.56,"endTime":2102.43,"body":"violence under duress by another"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2102.43,"endTime":2105.85,"body":"person, which is going to have"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2102.43,"endTime":2105.85,"body":"profound repercussions for his"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2105.85,"endTime":2109.09,"body":"sense of who he is as an ethical"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2105.85,"endTime":2109.09,"body":"agent. He's going to live with"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2109.09,"endTime":2110.41,"body":"that for the rest of his life."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2111.4,"endTime":2115.33,"body":"Okay, so you"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2111.4,"endTime":2115.33,"body":"mentioned integrity as an"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2115.33,"endTime":2117.73,"body":"important thing that"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2115.33,"endTime":2117.73,"body":"utilitarianism lives out. And"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2117.73,"endTime":2120.76,"body":"that's an important concept and"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2117.73,"endTime":2120.76,"body":"Williams's argument. So could"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2120.76,"endTime":2122.86,"body":"you just say a little more about"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2120.76,"endTime":2122.86,"body":"it."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2123.19,"endTime":2126.4,"body":"So Jim wanted to Jim"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2123.19,"endTime":2126.4,"body":"wanted to be the kind of guy who"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2126.4,"endTime":2128.38,"body":"went through life just"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2126.4,"endTime":2128.38,"body":"collecting botany samples,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2128.38,"endTime":2131.02,"body":"minding his own business, he"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2128.38,"endTime":2131.02,"body":"just wanted to be nice to other"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2131.02,"endTime":2133.15,"body":"people, he's quite reclusive. He"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2131.02,"endTime":2133.15,"body":"didn't want to hurt other"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2133.15,"endTime":2135.85,"body":"people. But he was now forced"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2133.15,"endTime":2135.85,"body":"into the situation to become"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2135.85,"endTime":2138.94,"body":"somebody he never wanted to be,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2135.85,"endTime":2138.94,"body":"and to do a thing he never"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2138.94,"endTime":2143.23,"body":"wanted to do. And he's changed"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2138.94,"endTime":2143.23,"body":"as a result of that he's not the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2143.23,"endTime":2147.19,"body":"same person he was before he"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2143.23,"endTime":2147.19,"body":"never will be again. And that's"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2147.19,"endTime":2150.28,"body":"an assault on Jim and assault on"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2147.19,"endTime":2150.28,"body":"No, of course, there's a very"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2150.28,"endTime":2153.25,"body":"serious moral wrong here about"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2150.28,"endTime":2153.25,"body":"what happens to the, to the to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2153.25,"endTime":2156.19,"body":"the quote, unquote, Indians. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2153.25,"endTime":2156.19,"body":"we might want to say something"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2156.19,"endTime":2159.19,"body":"about how interesting it is that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2156.19,"endTime":2159.19,"body":"Williams reached for this"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2159.19,"endTime":2162.37,"body":"example, in this language and,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2159.19,"endTime":2162.37,"body":"and, you know, it focuses on the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2162.37,"endTime":2165.94,"body":"white man being faced with this"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2162.37,"endTime":2165.94,"body":"awful thing had to do. But"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2165.94,"endTime":2168.94,"body":"putting even those relative"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2165.94,"endTime":2168.94,"body":"relevant concerns aside, there"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2168.94,"endTime":2173.26,"body":"is a there is an issue here"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2168.94,"endTime":2173.26,"body":"about this person being morally"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2173.44,"endTime":2178.33,"body":"changed and abused, in a way"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2173.44,"endTime":2178.33,"body":"that cannot be captured simply"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2178.33,"endTime":2181.45,"body":"by saying, Well, we've got to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2178.33,"endTime":2181.45,"body":"balance his sense of himself and"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2181.45,"endTime":2183.97,"body":"his sense of who he is and what"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2181.45,"endTime":2183.97,"body":"he's going to live his life"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2184.0,"endTime":2186.91,"body":"according to. And just weigh"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2184.0,"endTime":2186.91,"body":"that against, you know, how many"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2186.91,"endTime":2189.61,"body":"pizzas somebody had, or, or"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2186.91,"endTime":2189.61,"body":"whether you know, or whether"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2189.94,"endTime":2192.58,"body":"lots of people down the road"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2189.94,"endTime":2192.58,"body":"needed new organs, and we stole"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2192.67,"endTime":2195.85,"body":"some organs from from poor"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2192.67,"endTime":2195.85,"body":"people, you know, that to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2195.88,"endTime":2199.24,"body":"collapse all of the human"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2195.88,"endTime":2199.24,"body":"ethical experience into these"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2199.24,"endTime":2202.57,"body":"kinds of interchangeable"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2199.24,"endTime":2202.57,"body":"categories is to lose touch with"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2202.57,"endTime":2206.23,"body":"what makes human ethical"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2202.57,"endTime":2206.23,"body":"experience complicated and rich,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2206.41,"endTime":2210.76,"body":"and makes tragedy a real thing."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2206.41,"endTime":2210.76,"body":"utilitarian, his view worldview"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2210.76,"endTime":2213.64,"body":"kind of wants to eliminate moral"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2210.76,"endTime":2213.64,"body":"tragedy, wants to say that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2213.67,"endTime":2217.09,"body":"there'll be no remainders if we"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2213.67,"endTime":2217.09,"body":"get our calculations, right. But"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2217.09,"endTime":2220.12,"body":"that should set off alarm bells."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2217.09,"endTime":2220.12,"body":"Because if we get rid of moral"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2220.12,"endTime":2223.48,"body":"tragedy, we've probably got rid"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2220.12,"endTime":2223.48,"body":"of an awful lot of what makes"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2223.48,"endTime":2225.67,"body":"our ethical experiences worth"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2223.48,"endTime":2225.67,"body":"living in the first place."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2228.16,"endTime":2234.4,"body":"Okay, I get that. But"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2228.16,"endTime":2234.4,"body":"to take the other side. In this"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2234.4,"endTime":2237.82,"body":"case, it sounds like Bernard"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2234.4,"endTime":2237.82,"body":"Williams is saying, and you're"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2237.82,"endTime":2241.45,"body":"saying, utilitarianism tells you"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2237.82,"endTime":2241.45,"body":"what to do, you should save the"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2241.45,"endTime":2245.11,"body":"19 people, but you should also"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2241.45,"endTime":2245.11,"body":"feel bad about it. So the right"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2245.11,"endTime":2247.42,"body":"ethical thing is to do"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2245.11,"endTime":2247.42,"body":"utilitarianism, but then to feel"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2247.42,"endTime":2248.35,"body":"like moody about it."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2248.38,"endTime":2250.18,"body":"Good. So that's the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2248.38,"endTime":2250.18,"body":"response that has been made by"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2250.18,"endTime":2252.52,"body":"some utilitarians the Hanged"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2250.18,"endTime":2252.52,"body":"Man, what is it that what"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2252.55,"endTime":2255.67,"body":"Williams wants here? So RM hare,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2252.55,"endTime":2255.67,"body":"who was Williams's teacher at"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2255.67,"endTime":2258.7,"body":"Oxford, and a staunch"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2255.67,"endTime":2258.7,"body":"utilitarian sort of ridicule"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2258.7,"endTime":2261.58,"body":"this as a kind of self"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2258.7,"endTime":2261.58,"body":"indulgence, right? saying, Oh,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2261.58,"endTime":2263.83,"body":"you just want to go around"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2261.58,"endTime":2263.83,"body":"feeling bad about this kind of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2263.83,"endTime":2267.58,"body":"thing? And, and, you know, well,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2263.83,"endTime":2267.58,"body":"okay, well, then feel bad about"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2267.58,"endTime":2271.27,"body":"it. Right. You're allowed to do"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2267.58,"endTime":2271.27,"body":"that. Go on. And but I think"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2271.27,"endTime":2273.61,"body":"that misses the point. I think"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2271.27,"endTime":2273.61,"body":"it misses the point that the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2273.61,"endTime":2276.88,"body":"utilitarian doesn't understand"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2273.61,"endTime":2276.88,"body":"what's at stake here. It's not"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2276.88,"endTime":2280.87,"body":"simply about Jim or feeling bad."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2276.88,"endTime":2280.87,"body":"It's about Jim being forced to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2280.87,"endTime":2284.62,"body":"do something horrific having to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2280.87,"endTime":2284.62,"body":"live with that. And also the the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2284.62,"endTime":2288.1,"body":"20 Indians, or at least the 19"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2284.62,"endTime":2288.1,"body":"survivors, will have to witness"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2288.1,"endTime":2294.16,"body":"something horrific. And that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2288.1,"endTime":2294.16,"body":"matters in and of itself, not"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2294.16,"endTime":2297.52,"body":"simply because people feel bad,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2294.16,"endTime":2297.52,"body":"not simply because it's part of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2297.52,"endTime":2300.31,"body":"the calculation. And if the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2297.52,"endTime":2300.31,"body":"utilitarian genuinely doesn't"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2300.31,"endTime":2303.31,"body":"understand what the problem is"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2300.31,"endTime":2303.31,"body":"here, well, then I don't think"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2303.31,"endTime":2306.22,"body":"there's anything that can be"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2303.31,"endTime":2306.22,"body":"said, this is the kind of point"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2306.22,"endTime":2307.6,"body":"at which philosophy gives out."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2308.92,"endTime":2312.67,"body":"Well, I think I think"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2308.92,"endTime":2312.67,"body":"that the way you're describing"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2312.7,"endTime":2316.06,"body":"is it just if if he's feels bad,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2312.7,"endTime":2316.06,"body":"and everyone feels terrified,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2316.06,"endTime":2320.11,"body":"then you can. If it's about bad"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2316.06,"endTime":2320.11,"body":"feelings and terror, you can add"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2320.11,"endTime":2321.43,"body":"it to a calculation, I think"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2321.46,"endTime":2322.99,"body":"you can. But that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2321.46,"endTime":2322.99,"body":"misses the point"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2322.99,"endTime":2328.18,"body":"about I think that, I"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2322.99,"endTime":2328.18,"body":"think, well, right. So what is"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2328.18,"endTime":2331.93,"body":"the point, if it's not that it's"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2328.18,"endTime":2331.93,"body":"just, you just keep describing"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2331.93,"endTime":2337.27,"body":"it as this incredibly traumatic"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2331.93,"endTime":2337.27,"body":"bad experience. And therefore"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2337.27,"endTime":2342.73,"body":"cannot be added into"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2337.27,"endTime":2342.73,"body":"calculation. But those are"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2342.73,"endTime":2345.04,"body":"exactly the things that can be,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2342.73,"endTime":2345.04,"body":"can"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2345.04,"endTime":2347.56,"body":"be added into a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2345.04,"endTime":2347.56,"body":"calculation. But that's to miss"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2347.56,"endTime":2351.31,"body":"the point of what's wrong with"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2347.56,"endTime":2351.31,"body":"what's going on here, which is"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2351.31,"endTime":2354.97,"body":"that somebody is being forced to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2351.31,"endTime":2354.97,"body":"do something on balance they're"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2354.97,"endTime":2357.04,"body":"going to have, they're going to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2354.97,"endTime":2357.04,"body":"do something which has good"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2357.04,"endTime":2360.19,"body":"consequences, but the reasons"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2357.04,"endTime":2360.19,"body":"that they're having to do it and"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2360.19,"endTime":2363.85,"body":"what it does to them as an"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2360.19,"endTime":2363.85,"body":"agent, identifying with their"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2363.85,"endTime":2368.14,"body":"own life as a continuous"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2363.85,"endTime":2368.14,"body":"experience of developing a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2368.14,"endTime":2371.2,"body":"certain kind of character,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2368.14,"endTime":2371.2,"body":"that's now all being completely"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2371.2,"endTime":2375.28,"body":"fucked with by external power in"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2371.2,"endTime":2375.28,"body":"a way that the utilitarian can't"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2375.28,"endTime":2378.58,"body":"make sense of in and of itself"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2375.28,"endTime":2378.58,"body":"as something that matters. In"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2378.58,"endTime":2381.34,"body":"and of itself. It can only"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2378.58,"endTime":2381.34,"body":"matters the utilitarian insofar"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2381.34,"endTime":2385.0,"body":"as it can be shoved into a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2381.34,"endTime":2385.0,"body":"calculation, but that's the Miss"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2385.0,"endTime":2385.9,"body":"what's wrong here."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2386.41,"endTime":2390.46,"body":"Okay, so I'm going to"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2386.41,"endTime":2390.46,"body":"have a go at explaining this to"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2390.46,"endTime":2394.27,"body":"see if I've understood it, and"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2390.46,"endTime":2394.27,"body":"I'm going to relate it to the"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2394.27,"endTime":2396.19,"body":"example of George with the"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2394.27,"endTime":2396.19,"body":"weapons."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2396.4,"endTime":2398.14,"body":"Yeah, so they're"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2396.4,"endTime":2398.14,"body":"closely connected. Of course,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2398.14,"endTime":2399.97,"body":"there's the same kind of thought"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2398.14,"endTime":2399.97,"body":"going on here."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2401.02,"endTime":2405.64,"body":"So, William says its"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2401.02,"endTime":2405.64,"body":"integrity that everyone's losing"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2405.64,"endTime":2409.33,"body":"under utilitarianism. And you"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2405.64,"endTime":2409.33,"body":"mentioned something about"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2409.33,"endTime":2414.97,"body":"becoming a kind of entry in the"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2409.33,"endTime":2414.97,"body":"grand spreadsheet. And I think"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2415.0,"endTime":2418.57,"body":"this is easier to understand if"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2415.0,"endTime":2418.57,"body":"we fill in a little bit on the"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2418.57,"endTime":2421.3,"body":"integrity side and what we're"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2418.57,"endTime":2421.3,"body":"missing when we become an entry"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2421.45,"endTime":2425.8,"body":"on the big spreadsheet. And"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2421.45,"endTime":2425.8,"body":"that's this idea that all"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2425.8,"endTime":2430.6,"body":"individuals have values and"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2425.8,"endTime":2430.6,"body":"projects and commitments that"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2430.6,"endTime":2434.38,"body":"are important to us, we have"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2430.6,"endTime":2434.38,"body":"loved ones, all these things"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2434.38,"endTime":2440.77,"body":"that make up who we are, and"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2434.38,"endTime":2440.77,"body":"that we're committed to. And"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2441.37,"endTime":2445.87,"body":"utilitarianism completely takes"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2441.37,"endTime":2445.87,"body":"that away, right? It's just all"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2445.87,"endTime":2450.1,"body":"about impartial, universal"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2445.87,"endTime":2450.1,"body":"happiness calculated and"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2450.1,"endTime":2453.82,"body":"aggregated over the entire"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2450.1,"endTime":2453.82,"body":"globe. And that's what makes it"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2453.82,"endTime":2458.41,"body":"so horrific. Because all you're"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2453.82,"endTime":2458.41,"body":"allowed to think about is saving"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2458.41,"endTime":2461.86,"body":"starving children and mosquito"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2458.41,"endTime":2461.86,"body":"nets. It doesn't matter if you"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2461.86,"endTime":2465.64,"body":"want to work for a charity, or"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2461.86,"endTime":2465.64,"body":"if you want to be a dancer, or"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2465.64,"endTime":2469.93,"body":"if you want to do anything. If"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2465.64,"endTime":2469.93,"body":"the calculation shows that the"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2469.96,"endTime":2472.75,"body":"way you can get the most"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2469.96,"endTime":2472.75,"body":"mosquito nets is to work for"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2472.75,"endTime":2477.28,"body":"Goldman Sachs. That's what you"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2472.75,"endTime":2477.28,"body":"do. Your identity and values be"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2477.28,"endTime":2482.56,"body":"damned. And that's, I think, the"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2477.28,"endTime":2482.56,"body":"sense of integrity that William"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2482.56,"endTime":2486.7,"body":"says that utilitarianism to us"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2482.56,"endTime":2486.7,"body":"loses. We don't have any"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2486.7,"endTime":2490.15,"body":"integrity in the sense that we"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2486.7,"endTime":2490.15,"body":"don't have any commitments or"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2490.15,"endTime":2493.0,"body":"values or anything that are"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2490.15,"endTime":2493.0,"body":"consistent, and that we can call"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2493.0,"endTime":2493.33,"body":"our own."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2494.05,"endTime":2495.58,"body":"I think that's"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2494.05,"endTime":2495.58,"body":"completely correct. And that's,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2495.61,"endTime":2498.67,"body":"that's really, really good way"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2495.61,"endTime":2498.67,"body":"to put it. And I think that,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2498.82,"endTime":2501.34,"body":"again, it links back, there's a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2498.82,"endTime":2501.34,"body":"time and a place where it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2501.34,"endTime":2504.43,"body":"right. To put aside people's"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2501.34,"endTime":2504.43,"body":"individual projects and"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2504.43,"endTime":2507.76,"body":"commitments, right global"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2504.43,"endTime":2507.76,"body":"pandemic, we've got to make some"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2507.76,"endTime":2511.3,"body":"hard decisions, we got to make"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2507.76,"endTime":2511.3,"body":"them fast. That's the time in"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2511.3,"endTime":2514.81,"body":"which it's appropriate to be"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2511.3,"endTime":2514.81,"body":"utilitarian, when we need our"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2514.81,"endTime":2518.32,"body":"governments to think like that."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2514.81,"endTime":2518.32,"body":"But the singer example about"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2518.32,"endTime":2520.51,"body":"giving away all your money is"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2518.32,"endTime":2520.51,"body":"exactly the time when it's not"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2520.51,"endTime":2522.73,"body":"appropriate to think like"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2520.51,"endTime":2522.73,"body":"utilitarian."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2524.02,"endTime":2525.97,"body":"Well, we're getting"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2524.02,"endTime":2525.97,"body":"close to time. But I want to I"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2525.97,"endTime":2530.92,"body":"want to try one more. One more"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2525.97,"endTime":2530.92,"body":"idea, you, which is you've"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2530.95,"endTime":2534.37,"body":"mentioned that maybe the times"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2530.95,"endTime":2534.37,"body":"that we need it, and when"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2534.4,"endTime":2537.76,"body":"utilitarianism is most"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2534.4,"endTime":2537.76,"body":"appropriate, is in political"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2537.76,"endTime":2541.39,"body":"decisions. And I guess that's"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2537.76,"endTime":2541.39,"body":"because for political decisions,"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2541.42,"endTime":2544.39,"body":"the stakes are so high, you"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2541.42,"endTime":2544.39,"body":"don't want to have someone's own"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2544.69,"endTime":2548.32,"body":"personal scruples about getting"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2544.69,"endTime":2548.32,"body":"their hands dirty. stop them"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2548.32,"endTime":2552.16,"body":"from doing the most good for the"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2548.32,"endTime":2552.16,"body":"huge number of people that are"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2552.16,"endTime":2555.61,"body":"under their influence, right? So"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2552.16,"endTime":2555.61,"body":"political decisions, utilitarian"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2555.61,"endTime":2560.17,"body":"is making more sense in personal"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2555.61,"endTime":2560.17,"body":"life. That's maybe not such a"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2560.17,"endTime":2562.0,"body":"good way to think about it"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2560.17,"endTime":2562.0,"body":"because you lose a sense of"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2562.0,"endTime":2568.57,"body":"integrity. That's right. Is this"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2562.0,"endTime":2568.57,"body":"why politicians have such a hard"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2568.57,"endTime":2572.98,"body":"time having any integrity? And"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2568.57,"endTime":2572.98,"body":"so is it right for them not"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2572.98,"endTime":2574.51,"body":"to have any"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2572.98,"endTime":2574.51,"body":"integrity. So that's where I"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2574.51,"endTime":2579.88,"body":"think utilitarianism can again"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2574.51,"endTime":2579.88,"body":"become dangerous. Where if"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2579.88,"endTime":2583.72,"body":"politics is reduced to simply"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2579.88,"endTime":2583.72,"body":"utilitarian calculations, then"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2583.72,"endTime":2588.16,"body":"it becomes very easy for certain"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2583.72,"endTime":2588.16,"body":"stripe of politician to say,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2588.16,"endTime":2590.74,"body":"Hey, I'm just, you know, do"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2588.16,"endTime":2590.74,"body":"whatever is required, I'm just"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2590.74,"endTime":2592.99,"body":"being a hard headed and, you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2590.74,"endTime":2592.99,"body":"know, making those tough"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2592.99,"endTime":2596.26,"body":"decisions, and in order to, you"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2592.99,"endTime":2596.26,"body":"know, promote the greatest good."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2596.8,"endTime":2599.5,"body":"But often what that really means"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2596.8,"endTime":2599.5,"body":"in practice is I'm going to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2599.5,"endTime":2603.28,"body":"sacrifice people who I don't"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2599.5,"endTime":2603.28,"body":"need, who don't vote for me, or"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2603.28,"endTime":2607.15,"body":"who support I don't need under"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2603.28,"endTime":2607.15,"body":"the guise of it being for the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2607.15,"endTime":2611.47,"body":"public good. Now, I don't think"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2607.15,"endTime":2611.47,"body":"that's anywhere near enough of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2611.47,"endTime":2613.69,"body":"an explanation as to why"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2611.47,"endTime":2613.69,"body":"politicians often lack"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2613.78,"endTime":2616.3,"body":"integrity. That's a big"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2613.78,"endTime":2616.3,"body":"question."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2616.54,"endTime":2621.94,"body":"Okay. So let me ask"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2616.54,"endTime":2621.94,"body":"it this way. We're saying that"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2621.94,"endTime":2625.87,"body":"utilitarianism means that you"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2621.94,"endTime":2625.87,"body":"can't have integrity, it doesn't"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2625.87,"endTime":2630.07,"body":"leave any place for integrity."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2625.87,"endTime":2630.07,"body":"And we're also saying that very"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2630.07,"endTime":2634.69,"body":"often, we want politicians to be"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2630.07,"endTime":2634.69,"body":"utilitarians because we can't"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2634.69,"endTime":2636.85,"body":"have them being too fussy about"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2634.69,"endTime":2636.85,"body":"getting their hands dirty. And"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2636.85,"endTime":2639.88,"body":"when it's aggregated over a"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2636.85,"endTime":2639.88,"body":"bunch of people, we need them to"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2639.88,"endTime":2644.41,"body":"make that calculation. So I'm"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2639.88,"endTime":2644.41,"body":"not saying politicians are bad"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2644.41,"endTime":2648.64,"body":"because I have no integrity. I'm"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2644.41,"endTime":2648.64,"body":"saying, isn't it the case, if"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2648.94,"endTime":2652.72,"body":"utilitarianism is appropriate on"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2648.94,"endTime":2652.72,"body":"the policy level, that we want"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2652.87,"endTime":2655.96,"body":"our politicians to have no"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2652.87,"endTime":2655.96,"body":"integrity, so they can be good"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2655.96,"endTime":2656.8,"body":"utilitarians?"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2657.37,"endTime":2659.68,"body":"Right? So to that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2657.37,"endTime":2659.68,"body":"there are times when that is"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2659.68,"endTime":2662.47,"body":"true, right? There are times"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2659.68,"endTime":2662.47,"body":"when we want them to say, Look,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2662.56,"endTime":2666.22,"body":"just drop the bomb, right? So"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2662.56,"endTime":2666.22,"body":"for example, I have a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2666.22,"endTime":2668.23,"body":"controversial view, which my"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2666.22,"endTime":2668.23,"body":"students get very angry at"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2668.23,"endTime":2671.08,"body":"before, which is I think that on"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2668.23,"endTime":2671.08,"body":"balance, dropping the nuclear"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2671.08,"endTime":2673.57,"body":"weapons on Japan to end the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2671.08,"endTime":2673.57,"body":"Second World War was probably"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2673.57,"endTime":2677.38,"body":"the correct decision. Because"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2673.57,"endTime":2677.38,"body":"Truman, his first responsibility"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2677.38,"endTime":2681.7,"body":"was to American troops. The"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2677.38,"endTime":2681.7,"body":"estimate of a invasion of the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2681.7,"endTime":2686.02,"body":"Japanese home islands was a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2681.7,"endTime":2686.02,"body":"million US casualties. And many,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2686.02,"endTime":2688.6,"body":"many millions of civilian"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2686.02,"endTime":2688.6,"body":"Japanese casualties because the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2688.6,"endTime":2690.67,"body":"Japanese would not have"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2688.6,"endTime":2690.67,"body":"surrendered until every man"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2690.67,"endTime":2695.71,"body":"woman and child with dead a"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2690.67,"endTime":2695.71,"body":"given that alternative using"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2695.71,"endTime":2697.93,"body":"nuclear weapons, which also by"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2695.71,"endTime":2697.93,"body":"the way, sort of very strong"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2697.93,"endTime":2701.77,"body":"message to Joseph Stalin to stop"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2697.93,"endTime":2701.77,"body":"where he was, is, in my view,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2702.04,"endTime":2704.05,"body":"the right thing to have done. I"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2702.04,"endTime":2704.05,"body":"think Truman made the right"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2704.05,"endTime":2706.6,"body":"call. That's not a popular view."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2704.05,"endTime":2706.6,"body":"But I think in that case, he"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2706.6,"endTime":2710.35,"body":"did. But if he said, Oh, I'm not"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2706.6,"endTime":2710.35,"body":"going to drop the bombs on"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2710.35,"endTime":2713.62,"body":"Japan, I'm not going to drop any"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2710.35,"endTime":2713.62,"body":"bombs anywhere because of my"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2713.62,"endTime":2716.17,"body":"integrity, because I don't want"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2713.62,"endTime":2716.17,"body":"that to be on my conscience. I"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2716.17,"endTime":2718.93,"body":"don't want to be like Jim, who"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2716.17,"endTime":2718.93,"body":"had to kill the Indian, well,"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2718.93,"endTime":2721.27,"body":"then that's something's gone"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2718.93,"endTime":2721.27,"body":"wrong, right? There are times"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2721.27,"endTime":2725.05,"body":"when we need our politicians not"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2721.27,"endTime":2725.05,"body":"to have integrity. The problem"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2725.05,"endTime":2729.76,"body":"is, the ones who were prepared"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2725.05,"endTime":2729.76,"body":"to give up to step down from any"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2729.76,"endTime":2732.67,"body":"integrity are also the ones who"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2729.76,"endTime":2732.67,"body":"are likely to be very dangerous."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2733.12,"endTime":2736.96,"body":"And there's no mechanism for"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2733.12,"endTime":2736.96,"body":"regulating when they're making"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2736.96,"endTime":2741.73,"body":"the right call. And so, the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2736.96,"endTime":2741.73,"body":"great German socio sociologist"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2741.73,"endTime":2744.19,"body":"and political theorists, Max"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2741.73,"endTime":2744.19,"body":"vabre, described this as the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2744.19,"endTime":2747.85,"body":"great dilemma of politics, that"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2744.19,"endTime":2747.85,"body":"leaders have to be able to know"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2747.85,"endTime":2750.82,"body":"both when to stand up for their"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2747.85,"endTime":2750.82,"body":"integrity and to refuse to do"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2750.82,"endTime":2754.42,"body":"certain things, but also when to"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2750.82,"endTime":2754.42,"body":"let go of their integrity and do"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2754.42,"endTime":2757.27,"body":"them anyway, because the"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2754.42,"endTime":2757.27,"body":"situation demands it. And making"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2757.27,"endTime":2760.78,"body":"that judgment call is incredibly"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2757.27,"endTime":2760.78,"body":"difficult. But one thing I don't"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2760.78,"endTime":2764.23,"body":"think utilitarianism as a theory"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2760.78,"endTime":2764.23,"body":"can do is make that judgment"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2764.23,"endTime":2767.14,"body":"call that a better because"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2764.23,"endTime":2767.14,"body":"utilitarianism just says stick"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2767.14,"endTime":2770.89,"body":"it in a calculation. And often"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2767.14,"endTime":2770.89,"body":"the realities of politics can't"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2770.89,"endTime":2774.31,"body":"be reduced to a calculation. So"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2770.89,"endTime":2774.31,"body":"utilitarianism in practice is"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2774.31,"endTime":2778.27,"body":"likely to be no help at all. We"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2774.31,"endTime":2778.27,"body":"have a problem about judgment"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2778.3,"endTime":2781.0,"body":"about when to hold our"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2778.3,"endTime":2781.0,"body":"politicians to standard of"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2781.0,"endTime":2783.4,"body":"integrity and when to ask them"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2781.0,"endTime":2783.4,"body":"to give that up for the greater"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2783.4,"endTime":2787.42,"body":"good. But utilitarianism can't"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2783.4,"endTime":2787.42,"body":"tell us when to make those"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2787.42,"endTime":2787.81,"body":"calls."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2788.74,"endTime":2790.69,"body":"Excellent. Paul"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2788.74,"endTime":2790.69,"body":"Sager. Thank you very much for"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2790.69,"endTime":2794.29,"body":"coming on. But thanks again for"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2790.69,"endTime":2794.29,"body":"having me. And I think that is a"},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2794.59,"endTime":2797.74,"body":"good place to leave it. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Clif Mark","startTime":2794.59,"endTime":2797.74,"body":"Let's do it again sometime."},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2797.8,"endTime":2799.24,"body":"Dude. That was"},{"speaker":"Paul Sagar","startTime":2797.8,"endTime":2799.24,"body":"awesome. Thank you."}]}