Tall Cop: Kratom, 7-OH, and Hidden Gas Station Drugs

Kratom and 7-OH are showing up in gas stations across the country, sometimes in energy-drink style bottles teens can easily access. Drug trend expert Jermaine Galloway (“Tall Cop Says Stop”) joins the nextTalk Podcast to explain what parents need to know about kratom, 7-hydroxy, and other hidden gas station drugs.

Parents may assume these products are safe because they are legal or labeled “natural,” but that assumption can be dangerous. Jermaine breaks down how these substances are marketed, why mixing substances increases risk for teens, and how parents can start important conversations at home.

In this episode we discuss:

• What kratom and 7-OH actually are
• Why “natural” does not mean safe
• How these substances are being sold in gas stations
• Why mixing substances increases risk for teens
• Practical talking points for parents

Guest:
Jermaine Galloway (“Tall Cop Says Stop”)
Drug trend educator and national speaker

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to the Next Talk Podcast. We are a nonprofit passionate about keeping kids safe online. We're learning together how to navigate tech, culture, and faith with our kids. We have Jermaine Galloway back on the show today. Talk Cop says stop. He's been here before. He is a drug and alcohol expert. We have just loved uh his wisdom. Thank you for being here again, Jermaine. For those who don't know you or haven't listened to your shows before, can you give us a brief introduction?

unknown 0:33

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Jermaine Galloway, known as Talkhoff says stop, uh coming in from Texas, although I really should come to you from the airlines because I'm on airplanes every week. Just flew in last night from Seattle. So I did two trainings in Washington State. Next week is uh Wisconsin and Michigan. So I'm in two to three states a week, but I live in the Dallas Metroplex. Nationwide speaker, I'm starting to speak in other countries now. Island and Bermuda, I was just there three weeks ago, so I'm starting to train there also. But I train on drug trends and I train everybody uh from parents, who I know is a lot of your listeners to professionals to mental health and doctors and police officers and school law enforcement, everybody. If you deal with drugs, I train you. So this is what I do.

Kratom 101 And Legal Patchwork

SPEAKER_00 1:11

You've just been a great resource for us and even shows that we haven't had you on when a parent contacts me and says, Have you heard of this? I'm like, go search Tall Cop and see if he's reporting on it yet. Thank you for the work you do so much. Um, one of the things that I've been seeing lately post about, and and I'm gonna be very honest, like I had never heard of this before, is Kratom.

Why Kratom Is Surging Now

The Rise Of 7‑Hydroxy And Bans

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Yeah, yeah, let's talk about that. It's funny that um you asked that because obviously we didn't discuss what topics we were gonna talk about on this. So just so the you know the show knows this wasn't like uh this was all planned that you were gonna ask me. You just told me two minutes ago you're gonna ask me. The reason I say that is I'm actually sitting in my podcast booth right now because I just recorded two podcasts that I just finished 20 minutes ago before I started this. And the podcast that I recorded, one of them is Kratom. So that's one I just recorded because you're not the only one getting questions about it. We all are. Um, so I'll tell people, I'll give you the five-minute answer, five, six-minute answer because the podcast I did on was 30 minutes. Here's what's going on. There's a lot of moving parts with Kratom. I mean, it's more expensive than people think. Let me give you a little history, let me tell you about where we're at and where we're headed. So Kratom is a herbal drug, it's a plant. It is not a synthetic, it's not made by chemists, it's not made in labs. It is all natural. Almost all of our Kratom comes from Asia, is shipped into the United States, either packaged in Asia, like in pill form or drink form, or packaged here. It's probably a combo of both. Then it's sold. Kratom is legal in about 42 states, somewhere in there. It's legal where the legality status changes depending on where you're at. So, for instance, California, it's legal, but there's counties in California who've banned it. Missouri, it's legal, but Kansas City just banned it. The state of um Utah has multiple bills, so we'll see if they're gonna regulate it or ban it. Uh, Alabama has banned it. I believe Vermont has banned it, Arkansas, Wisconsin have banned it, but Illinois has not. Their neighbors have not. So it's a mess. It's a total mess. Then on top of the bans, we have some states that have put age restrictions. Like Tennessee is 21 and over. New York just went 21 and over. So other states have put age restrictions, but no one knows the age restrictions exist, including law enforcement. So you have an age restriction on a drug that nobody knows there's an age restriction for. So, how well is an age restriction being enforced when no one knows it exists, right? You know the answer to that. So now, why is everyone going after Kratom? What's the deal? Why is it on their radar now? Because Kratom, I've been teaching 20 years. Kratom was one of the first drugs I ever taught on. So Kratom's been around like, I don't know, 30 in the US, 30, 40 years, somewhere in there. But why now? Why all of a sudden 2025, 2026, late 25, 26, is everyone going after this drug now where no one did in the beginning of 25. No one cared. Because ultimately, Kratom works like an opioid, it works like a painkiller. It is near the strength of heroin. I think heroin's still stronger, but it's near the strength of heroin. It's somewhere in that realm. Okay. But it tests differently than heroin. It tests differently than painkillers. It does not come up in standard drug testing panels. A lot of medical examiners, meaning drug fatalities, don't test for it. Most hospitals don't test for it. A lot of your law enforcement does not have a field test for it. So it goes relatively undetected. But that's not the reason that it's on everyone's radar. The reason it's hit everyone's radar is this. Two, it's twofold. I highlighted this on my podcast. One, Kratom's cousin showed up. And I explained Kratom's cousin is the person that comes to Thanksgiving dinner that you say, when are they leaving and how long are they going to be here? That's that cousin, not the cousin you like. So Kratom's cousin showed up called Seven Hydroxy. So if your people don't know what Kratom is, I'm speaking a totally different language to them now. Seven hydroxymetrogenine, also known aka 7-0 or 7-0. Just look that up, 7-0. Seven hydroxymetrogenine comes from the Kratom plant, is natural to Kratom. But 7-hydroxymetrogenine is being chemically altered, chemically changed, chemically shifted, synthesized, and then sold. Long story short, put this all in a vote for you. You have Kratom, which is all natural. Kratom, which was not on a lot of people's radar on our side as far as banning. Kratom's cousin shows up, puts a and is a synthetic form of Kratom that is stronger than heroin in some cases, and is much stronger than Kratom, puts the spotlight on Kratom, where Kratom's like, I don't even like my cousin, right? But everyone goes, we don't care. Now we're looking at you two. Puts the spotlight on Kratom to the point where now states are banning 7 hydroxy and/or Kratom. So Florida banned 7 Hydroxy, but did not ban Kratom. Um, Kentucky is in the process of banning 7 hydroxy, they did not ban Kratom. Some states, like I think Utah, don't quote me on this, but I think Utah is looking to ban both of them. Kansas City just banned Kratom. So it's a mess right now. And what I just said on my podcast was this I'm talking to you in March of 25. We will have totally different information by September of 25. We have 26.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

26. You're behind. Talk hop.

Natural And Legal Do Not Mean Safe

SPEAKER_02 6:23

Good point, good point. So 26, we'll have multiple different states in 26 who banned Kratom that, as I'm speaking to you right now, have not banned Kratom yet. But by the end of this year, they will have banned the drug. And we'll have other cities and counties. And in 27, we'll have even more. So what it basically did was shifted the tide, which it should have. We should have banned Kratom a long time ago. This should have been a control substance a long time ago. But it shifted the tide of banning Kratom now. We're doing what we should have done 10 years ago, 20 years ago. It's finally happening now. And the only reason, in my opinion, it's happening is because 7 hydroxy showed up. It put the focus on Kratom. Also, because 7 hydroxy is stronger, it most likely lowered the price of Kratom, which started to shift who was buying Kratom to, i.e., schools. So we saw some changes that put the spotlight on them. Again, if Kratom could have just hid in the background and said, everybody keep looking at fentanyl and heroin, don't look at us, we'd still be status quo with them. But 7 hydroxy changed the game for them. And that's why all of a sudden it's on everyone's radar and news media is running with it now.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Okay, so there's there's a lot I want to unpack there. I have some more questions. So so first of all, um, Kratom is a natural plant-based, like that's probably how it's marketed, right? Because it seems normal. You would put it in teas, coffee, like I've heard it described as like coffee plant. That seems super harmless, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:44

All of it. Yeah, because natural, when someone says legal or natural, they are saying safe in their head. So if you looked at me and I was talking about a drug and you go, but isn't that drug legal? You're actually saying, hey, tall cop, isn't it safe? When when you look at me and I talk to you about a drug and you go, it's all natural, right? And I go, yeah, it's all natural. You go, well, you're you're asking me if it's safe. That's what your brain is telling you because you associate me, you, everybody, we associate, well, not me anymore, but legality and plants with safety. That's the furthest thing from the truth.

Regulate Or Ban And Youth Access

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Well, and I think that's so dangerous for our kids. And this is why I really wanted to do this podcast is because I think parents need to warn their kids about how this has changed over the years. So, and you described it great because you said the the cousin showed up, 7-hydroxy, 7-0. I hope I'm pronouncing all that correct. And that is where we have huge concerns with because it's more dangerous.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Is that correct?

Testing Gaps And Adulteration Risks

SPEAKER_02 8:47

Yes, and universally, even the Kratom world, because Kratom and 7-hydroxy are two different drugs, they originate from the same family, but they're two different drugs. Because once you synthesize a drug and put in a lab, it's not the same drug anymore. You've you've chemically changed it so much that you've basically created a new drug. It stemmed from one place, but you created something totally different, right? So, universally, everyone will tell you 7-hydroxy is dangerous and should be banned, and states are banning it, and it's gonna be banned in most states. In the next five years, most states will ban seven hydroxy. We'll only see a handful left that will try to regulate it. But what happens when, you know, because this question comes up too, and especially from your listeners, you have a lot of parents, they're gonna ask me this isn't it better to regulate it and get the tax revenue than ban it? Because people are gonna use it anyways. There's some truth to that. Banning, if you still want to use a drug, you're gonna use it. Fentanyl meth are banned, and we're in a fentanyl epidemic. All right. So, yes, banning does not stop drug use, but when you talk kids, it does impact it because our kids go to cheapest, easy-to-get drugs. That's what kids go to. When you ban it, you impact price points and you make it a little bit harder to get. You and I as adults, if we want to go find a drug, we want to go find fentanyl. I could find fentanyl in 20 minutes. We want to go find it, we're gonna find it. Okay. But for our kids, they don't have the ease of accessibility as we do. So it changes things a little bit for them. So people say, shouldn't we ban it and regulate it? No, that the that that that doesn't, or shouldn't we regulate? That doesn't help. But understanding that also, when you ban a substance, you have to follow up with enforcement. There has to be an enforcement arm, there has to be an enforcement follow-through. So we're gonna see a bunch of states ban seven hydroxy, like great state of Texas. I assume at some point we're gonna ban seven hydroxy. We have to follow up with enforcement, and we have to pay attention to the states we border who don't ban it because that still plays in the ease of accessibility and all the rest of that. So that's some of the issues that we have with that. Um, we are in a point of lack of testing for it too. There are a little, a lot of brands out there, so we don't completely know what they're putting in it. So a lot of cases it's not pure seminhydroxy. There's other drugs in there too. I can't say a lot. We know some of the cases, there's other drugs in there. So you have to really pay attention to what they're putting in there too.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Well, I think as you're talking about regulation and and, you know, um regulation versus banning and all of that and state laws. The thing that comes to my mind is, you know, um, social media, online gambling, pornography access, how it kind of took off and our kids had access to all of it. And now we're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We have to have regulation around this, we have to have age restrictions around this. And um, we're playing catch up. The laws are playing catch up for how fast culture and drug trends are moving. And so, my hope with this podcast is that we can equip parents to have some conversations to keep our kids very safe in the interim of that. Because there have been reports I I've seen online and I've seen some stories, that there are kids overdosing on this, like dying from this, because the 7-0 help me with this. They mix it with alcohol, and then it becomes even more dangerous.

Polydrug Use With Alcohol And Vapes

SPEAKER_02 11:56

It's we are seeing some of these substances being mixed with alcohol. We are coming across that. And it's just polydrug use in general. Whether it's a company doing it or whether it's the person doing it, um, it's just polydrug use. I mean, most people don't use one drug, and that's a shift for kids. Traditionally, it was more people like us, adults, who use multiple drugs. Now we're seeing that with children too, though. There were, I mean, and vapes play a big role in it. Vapes are a drug, it's a stimulant. So you might see drinking, vapes, 70H. I mean, those are three different drug classes. You have stimulants, vapes, you have drinking, depressant, you have 70H, which works like an opio. Those are three totally different drug classes, but they're combining them, you know. And what also happens, especially from your parents, they say, what do I need to look for then? That's a question I get a lot. What are signs and symptoms? What does it display as? I just gave you three different drug classes. That's a really good question, what it's going to display as. I don't know if anybody knows. And you're trusting the drug companies that what they tell you is on the package is actually what's in the package. Drug companies are not, I'm not saying they all lie, because I know they all don't, but we know some of them do. And drug companies are not about ethics and public health. So you have to keep that in mind that you don't want to trust a drug dealer that what they tell you is in there is actually in there, street level or one that's over the counter in your gas station.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Well, because they're they want profit. I mean, that's the thing. They want consumers, right? This is follow the money.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

Not understand them. They're for-profit. You understand a for-profit mentality? For profit, people that are just for profit tend to carry a little bit of slime with them. So you have to pay attention to that. You know, there's people, don't get me wrong, we all want to make profit. I don't know anyone who says, no, I don't want to make profit. Everyone wants to make profit, but there's a proper way to do that. And you say, I want to make profit within my religion, within my ethics, within my code, within whatever. That's the way we want to make profit. When you say, I want to make profit, and I don't give a, you know, what how I do that, yeah, those people are not about public health, and those people are about slime. And that's what you need to pay attention to.

Kava’s Role And Synergy With Kratom

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Yeah, those people are not for humanity and the and the welfare of children and families. One thing that you touched on that I think we really need to pause because I think it's a very good preventative conversation here is about mixing of different substances. And parents, I cannot stress this enough in how to talk to your kids about this, that when they are mixing certain things, it heightens the risk for them. They need to be aware of this. And I would even say, as to go as far, like in my home, I've even said, you know, alcohol mixed with prescription drugs, there's warnings on that too. Anything. But but they don't click. It doesn't click in their brain. And so I truly believe it's a preventative conversation that can that can save a child's life if if we if we go into this uncomfortable, awkward space of having the conversation.

How Products Are Sold And Labeled

SPEAKER_02 14:39

Yeah. So let me give an example of something that's trending right now, which is actually relevant to what you asked me about with Kratom. It's a drug called Kava. So you're gonna have listeners, you're gonna have soccer mom on your podcast that goes, her heart rate just went up. She goes, I use Kava. Kava K A V A. Kava is a natural depressant, it's a plant-based depressant. It is relatively safe by itself. There is no age restrictions in most states. You can buy it on Amazon, you can buy it in gas stations and smoke shops. So let's walk through that. Let's use Kava as the best example for that. Kava by itself is relatively safe. Kava, though, has been attributed with liver damage and liver failure. I'm guessing that's more high doses, but it has been attributed with that. But by itself, relatively safe. Kava carries a synergistic effect, a combo effect with other drugs. When you mix kava with other drugs, it works totally differently. Alcohol, painkillers. Guess what the top drug right now I am finding kava mixed with in over-the-counter stores? Kratom. It's a top drug I'm finding it with. The Kratom that now your people are asking about doesn't just sell by itself. And it doesn't just sell under Kratom. It sells under brand names a lot. So one of the examples I give people going back to that is I ask you, do you know what alcohol is? You say yeah. And I say, Do you know what Crown Royal is? You go, No, never heard of it. Crown Royal is alcohol. Okay. It's a brand of alcohol that's under a brand name, so you don't know what it is anymore. That's what Kratom's doing. Kratom is selling under brand names. So Kava and Kratom products are running under multiple different brand names, being sold in stores that all your listeners are walking into, minus the handful of states that have bandit like the Alabama's, Wisconsin's places like that. So all your listeners are walking in seeing that, looking at it, and Kratom's on their radar, they're asking you and me about Kratom, and they don't even realize they're staring right at Kratom. It's just under a brand name. And then you have Kratom and Kava mixed in together, which they I like to use the word potentiate. They spike the high of each other, they intensify the high of each other together. Kava by itself, eh, not too big of a deal. Kava Kratom, totally different ballgame. And that's what we're seeing. And that's what's trending through social media too, are these Kratom Kava products. One of the top products I'm finding right now in your stores is Kratom Kava products. And they're sitting right at the counter and all of us are seeing them, but we are not identifying them. And that's a big time issue.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Yeah, yeah. I'm glad you raised the warning on this because if if they're right there, then our kids are right there and our kids can buy them, right? There's no there's no restrictions on these. So that that's a major problem.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

And even if even if they were 21 and over, does the clerk know that? Does law enforcement know that? Does mom know that? I mean, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

So tell me what they would look like in the store. Are they pill form? Are they in a pill bottle? Are they in the you know, vitamin aisle mainly? Like what are we seeing them marketed as?

Deceptive Menus At Kava Bars

SPEAKER_02 17:22

I just did a scan, so recency effect, did a scan last week in Amarillo, Texas, and then I did one the week before, two weeks before in South Carolina, um, some other states, Arizona recently. Pretty much the same themes I see. If it's in a gas station, it's usually at the counter. There is one, and I'm not going to say the name because I I won't give these guys free press, not through anything I do. There is a large gas station chain in the Midwest region of the United States. It's not in Texas, um, although I just heard they're opening one in Texas, but they're in the Midwest region, multiple states, they are a huge gas station chain. They sell like products like Finiba out on the floor, which is something I rarely see. It's a Finiba product on the floor. Kratom Kava, what we're talking about, generally always at the counter. So if I'm looking at that cash register and I'm staring at that clerk, it's usually within arm's reach of me. It's usually somewhere right there. Sometimes it's on the back wall behind him. I can see it, but can't reach it, but it's usually right there. So the Kratom Kava product, sometimes behind a plexiglass because they don't want people to steal it, but I can usually access it. Let's say I could I could reach it within taking a step or two. But it's under multiple brand names. And a lot of the bottles look like five-hour energy bottles. They're about that size, and a lot of times they're sitting next to five-hour energy. So the drinks are very popular for Kratom Kava. I don't really see Kratom Kava in a pill form. I do see Kratom in a pill form, but not Kratom Kava in a pill form. It's generally a drink form. I'm trying to think if I've seen in a vape or not. I don't believe I've seen in a vape candy bar. I want to say the Kratom Kava is mostly in a drink.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Okay, that's good. That's good to know. And again, our kids can walk into these gas stations and buy them.

Is 7‑Hydroxy In Your Drink

SPEAKER_02 18:57

Depends on the state. Um, kava, yes. The Kratom depends on the state. 21 and over, a couple states have banned it, but you know, we're finding to where a lot of states don't even know. I got an email from a school resource officer out of out of Alabama two weeks ago. The clerk, so the SRO goes into the gas station across the street from her high school, right? She's probably gonna buy a bottle of water or something like that. She's in there, the clerk goes, Hey, I want to ask you about this product. Hands are a crate, it was just kava, it was just a kava product, and says, I have people, the clerk used some different words, but these are the terminology I'm gonna use. I have people who suffer from substance use disorders who are buying this product, and it is only those people buying it, right? So it stood out to the clerk. So the police officer says, this is right across the street from the high school. I've looked it up. Can you tell me info? It's a kava product, and it's directly across the street from the high school, okay? And it's kava, running under different brand names because kava also goes under a plant-based name, Piper Methiscum or something like that. That's how you say it. It also goes under that name. So on the bottle, it didn't say Kava, it said the Piper Methiscum name on the bottle. So that's why she was asking me, right? But when you it's kava, it's just kava under its plant name. But that's the stuff going on. This is why this stuff slides right past you and you don't know it's there.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Okay, so let me ask you that with Kratom to look and see if if Kratom is in a product, is it gonna say that as an ingredient or is there a long medical terminology name on that? If if we're looking at an energy drink or a or a little thing that our kid wants to pop up, how do we how do we filter it?

Youth Buying At Gas Stations

Underreported Deaths And Comparison Traps

SPEAKER_02 20:31

It's both. Um, generally it says Kratom, not always, but sometimes it's a super small print. Like I look at the bottle, I have a brand name, I have a logo. There's one I saw just last week in Amarillo, had the brand name, it was a newer bottle, it said caffeine in big letters, and then the kratoms in the smaller letters. Okay. So sometimes it's harder to see. But Kratom also goes under the plant name of metrogenine. So if it doesn't say Kratom, it might say metrogenine. Don't ask me how to spell that. I know it when I see it. But it might say metrogenine. So, but that's Kratom. So, no, they're doing this. These guys are deceptive in their marketing tactics. They're doing that. Let me give you an even better one. So, in Texas, I won't say where, again, I don't do free marketing for these guys. I won't, I won't do paid marketing for these guys, to be clear. But in Texas, I walk into a store and the store is a kava bar. So in your communities, you have kava bars popping up where they look like coffee shops, but it's kava. It's all kava and coffee, kava by itself, kava teas. It's but it looks like it looks like a Starbucks, but it says Kava on the outside. Okay. So I walk in the Kava bar and I haven't been in one. I I've identified these, but I have no need to go in them. I always assumed I knew what was in there. But this time I walk in one. It's in Texas about a month and a half ago. So I walk in one and she's showing me the Kava menu. So she points out some stuff on the menu, and I assume it's Kava because why would I think anything different? She says these products are all Kratom products. So on the menu, she had Kava products. She had Kava products you can mix with Kratom, but she did not because I looked at that menu closely as she said that the word Kratom was nowhere on the menu. So if I did not know or she did not tell me, she did not market Kratom. She was marketing Kava, but she had Kratom products to mix with Kava, but it did not say it on the menu. It just said like the name, like whatever name, you know, strawberry, blah, blah, blah. All that's all it said, but it did not say Kratom. She had to tell me Kratom. That's the deceptive marketing tactics they are doing. But if you understand these items travel together, then you're gonna figure this stuff out. But you got to know these items travel together.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

I have a question, and it may be a dumb question. I don't know, but okay, so when you're talking about these things on the menu, does this contain 7-0 or is that no? It would just be the natural Kratom, or do we not know? Because it can be mixed, it could be the higher level 7.0.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

Yes, and yes. Yes, yes, and yes. So remember, 7-0 in its natural form derives from Kratom. So, yeah, so if you're drinking a Kratom tea, 7-0 is in there, but it's in its natural form. The 7-0 that's freaking everybody out is being synthesized, but could that be in there too? Sure, it could be because nobody's regulating it. Sure. So the answer is yes to all of it. I would assume it's yes to all of it, depending on who you buy it from and what form of it you buy it in and what product they have. I I would guess many of these places probably have all the products there. They're not going to tell you that unless you ask, but um, or unless they know you, but I would assume it's all there.

States Move Ahead Of Federal Action

SPEAKER_00 23:28

So we've got a gas station across from a high school that you have been to that's selling Kratom to these kids in in like energy drink looking form. They're they're drinking those after school or whatever. They can go in there, buy them, no problem. Then they could go get alcohol, then they could be vaping. And this is this is the concern here that we're mixing all of these different substances. And and now we have kids overdosing, losing their lives. And and one of the arguments that I saw online was we don't have a lot of deaths related to Kratom yet. So it's it's not an epidemic that everybody's making it out to be. But you already kind of address that because we don't test for it in an autopsy or in a drug overdose.

Cannabis Drinks And Storefront Trends

SPEAKER_02 24:14

So to be fair, do I think, well, again, I don't have data to back this, but I think we would know. Do I think we're seeing as many kratom deaths as we do fentanyl? No, not at all. Okay. I think fentanyl far exceeds it, but fentanyl is a much stronger drug than Kratom. But do I think we're seeing Kratom deaths that we're missing? Absolutely. So, yeah, do I think it's here? No. But do I think it's as low as the Kratom world makes it out to be? No. We're somewhere up in here. Okay. We are seeing more than we think we are, but we are not seeing as much as when you like to compare it. And that's something I talked about yesterday in my training in Seattle. I said, you cannot let people, whether it's kids or the drug world, start doing the comparison game. Okay. Because you and I could sit back and say, Well, I'm using heroin. And people could go, heroin's bad, and go, at least I'm not using fentanyl. Okay. And then you could say, hey, I'm using fentanyl. People go, fentanyl's bad. I could kill you. At least I'm not using car fentanyl. Okay. I mean, you can always pick a drug that's worse than the one you're using. You can always add, hey, you're drinking too much beer. I only drank six a day. I'm not drinking a 12-pack. You can always point to something that's worse than what you're doing. We have to stop the point game. We have we have to cut that out, right? So just like you said, they're minimizing. At first it used to be a kratom, no one's died. That's what you heard at first. But now medical examiners uh are coming out saying, oh, no, no, no, no, no, y'all, slow down. We have documented deaths that this was the drug. So then everyone's like, oh, okay, okay, okay. So then people died, but it wasn't a lot of them, right? It wasn't a lot of them. Then when our now the medical examiners are saying that, more medical examiners are gonna start testing for kratom, which means those numbers are gonna rise too. Then they're well, it's not every state. Then the states are gonna start testing for it. They're gonna go, well, it's not as much as heroin. And that they're gonna do that till the end of time. When you have drugs like this that we know are taking lives or can take a life, we need to be dealing with those. It doesn't matter that it doesn't kill as many people as fentanyl. That doesn't mean it make it safe. I mean, we don't sit back and go, well, you know, just as long as we have 10 car crash fatalities and it's not a hundred, we're doing okay. No, 10 is too many. Okay, you have to you have to address it. If there's an issue and there is an issue with Kratum, you have to address it. So stop comparing. The comparison game, we can do this all day, and there will always be something worse on the market. And you can't do that.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

I love that you say that because it's a substance and all substances are addictive, right? It's like we trade one for another, and we we in our mind we're like, it's not as bad.

Parent Playbook: Talking Points

SPEAKER_02 26:40

It is, and and we do that, and that's the way to justify it to yourself. It's not as bad. You know, when your lawn looks terrible at your house, you go, but look at those two neighbors, theirs looks worse, right? You you don't just own your, you know, that's a mentality of some people, but you have the mentality of other people say, I don't care, none of my neighbors do their lawn. I do mine perfectly because I take pride in me. And that's the way you have to look at it. We're not comparing. You focus on your own backyard, you focus on your backyard, and everyone else will come, will come into play. And that's really what's happening now is finally, and I mean, Kratom, this should have been banned 20 years ago. I know I said earlier, I can't hammer that home enough. Finally, states are starting to go, we don't care what the federal government does, we're going after this. Cities like Kansas City, we don't care what Missouri does, we're going after this. Finally, people are starting to take care of their own backyard. And once they do, everyone else is gonna jump on board because that's what we do. When you have 20 states that will ban it, the other states are gonna go, we need to ban it. And at some point, the federal government's gonna go, we need to go after this now, too, because all the states are doing it. So we need to, we need to solidify and standardize all this. And that's what's happening now. We there is a significant tide shift with Kratom that in my 20 years of training, I have never seen before. And this has just started in the last nine months. I have never seen this before.

SPEAKER_00 27:53

Well, I know school resource officers, people who are on the front lines working with kids are like needing to get educated about it because they're seeing it more and more. A lot of these, like what you said, energy drinks or these little containers that have all the cool marketing on them, they may be drinking Kratom and they don't even know it.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

Yeah. And that is unfortunate because Kratom is being sold at gas stations and it is being sold a lot of times warm, but in the coolers also. And I have photos where I can show you of Kratom sitting next to other products. And on a side note, we're seeing that with some cannabis drinks now, too, in our gas stations where we have cannabis being sold next to products when they don't stand out. One of the other podcasts that I did today was talking about, I recorded two of them today, was talking about a recent scan in Texas and what I found and how that scan is highlighting trends nationwide. What it's telling us is coming, going nationwide. And one of them was the cannabis drinks. So being sold right next to everyday products that don't stand out. So we're gonna see more of that.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

That kids can buy.

Where To Learn More And Final Encouragement

SPEAKER_02 28:52

Yeah, theoretically, they're not supposed to be able to, but you've been in gas stations. Do all those clerks look like they're very knowledgeable on drugs? Uh, I don't get that feel. Some of them, yeah. Some of them I think maybe used, some of them I think might be in recovery, and some of them I think have no clue at all. So yeah. Depends where you go, who you get.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

I'm so glad you came on because this is where Next Talk, our heart is is that when laws and reporting, it's gonna take a minute for them to start testing for us to understand how this is impacting teenagers. And right now, the parents have to triage in their home. We have to talk about these subjects and bring it to light and get educated about it. Search about it, go listen to Talk Hop's other podcasts on this on this topic so we can get educated about it. Would you leave any last parting words with our parents about like the maybe the a couple talking points that are so important to cover when we're having these conversations with our kids?

SPEAKER_02 29:48

Yeah, there's several. Give me a give me a couple minutes on this. There's several on that. One is let's start easy. Legal does not mean safe. Parents, you think that? I used to think that. Most adults think that. All your kids think that. Legal means safe. You have to knock that mountain down. Okay. Knock that mountain down. Use use examples of legal drugs that are unsafe and use examples of legal drugs that are unsafe in high doses. Diphenhydramine, we know it under a brand of Benadryl. Benadryl is a relatively safe drug. We've all taken it. We all live in Texas, we have allergies, all the rest. Um, but when you take, it's 25 milligrams on a pill. You take 500 milligrams, not a safe drug anymore. And it's not a recommended dose either. But yet on TikTok, your kids learn the Benadryl challenge to take 500 milligrams of Benadryl, right? So stuff like that, high doses of alcohol, high doses of anything. So legal is not safe, does not automatically mean safe. Herbal does not automatically mean safe because it's a plant. Mom, it's a plant. Because it's a plant does not mean it's safe. Because it's not regulated or banned. So it could we have synthetic drugs in Texas and multiple states being sold, made by chemists that are not banned yet. That doesn't mean safe. When we talk vaping parents, they're we're not even 20 years into understanding vaping. It took us 25 years to understand tobacco. And the danger is that, hey, pregnant women shouldn't smoke. Hey, we shouldn't let you know people smoke on the school bus, right? I mean, this is took us on airplanes. This is 25 years to figure that out. So when you keep that in mind, those are some talking points that'll cause some pretty extensive conversations, especially the vaping one right there. Now, a question I get a lot, let's highlight this, is where can you get more resources? You guys ask me that all the time. I plug my podcast, I'm doing podcasts. Um, I started doing a couple years ago, multiple different drugs. I keep them 20 to 45 minutes long. The ones I recorded today were both about 30 minutes. So you can listen to them to and from work. That's one of my ways to keep you informed. Okay. Also, um, and I'm on Spotify and Apple for my podcast. I have an email newsletter. Go to www.tallcopsaysstop.com. It'll give you a pop-up for my email list. Plug in your information, hit submit. I have an email list that goes out to 85,000 people nationwide. Every month I pump, I pump out that email list and I put a ton of information in there. So that's another way. And then finally, follow me on my socials. I'm on X, LinkedIn, um, Facebook, of course. Follow me on my socials. I have my Talk Ops Travels page, I have my Speakers Network page. I have a bunch of pages on Facebook, and I intentionally put different information there. So you can follow my Talk Ops page, my Speakers Network, you can follow all of them. Okay. So if you don't, if you can't track or find all that stuff, send me an email. Go to my website, send me an email, and I can tell you where all that stuff is. Those are my ways to keep you informed. Okay. And I'll, of course, listen to podcasts like this. That's how I keep you informed. Guys, we spent 30 minutes just talking about two drugs. Now you understand when I tell you I could do a two-day class where I have you from eight to five. You understand how much is going on. We basically talked about this much today. It is extensive what's going on. But parents, keep your heads up. Same thing I told my group in Seattle yesterday. Everybody's not using drugs. All your kids are not using drugs. Some of your kids might experiment. That doesn't mean that it's a lost cause now. They might try something. You still have to fight the fight. You have to fight the battle. If you don't educate your kids, the drug world will. They will happily educate your kids. You have to be the one doing it. Fight the fight. You're gonna like any fight, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. You're gonna fail sometimes, but keep fighting the fight. You'll be okay. All right. Just keep your heads up.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

That's a word for us. Listen, I know you're so busy. I appreciate all the work you're doing. And I I'm so grateful that once a quarter or so often you make an appearance here and we touch on some things, and then they can go hear all your podcasts on the on the on all the numerous drugs that you cover over there and all the nutrients. Thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

You're welcome. Thanks, guys. Appreciate you having me.

Nonprofit Support And Disclaimers

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Next Talk is a 501c3 nonprofit keeping kids safe online. To support our work, make a donation at next talk.org. Next talk resources are not intended to replace the advice of a trained healthcare or legal professional, or to diagnose, treat, or otherwise render expert advice regarding any type of medical, psychological, legal, financial, or other problem. You are advised to consult a qualified expert for your personal treatment plan.