On this episode of The Vurge, Rebecca welcomes Alvin Haygan, Jr. to continue the conversation on organizational change management. Together they peel back the layers of fear and resistance that often shroud transitions in healthcare IT, revealing the human heart of innovation. Discover how Alvin navigates these delicate shifts, turning apprehension into active participation and skepticism into collaboration. Small victories and personal acknowledgments—whether a handwritten note or a shared cookie—become the currency of a thriving organizational culture under his watch.
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On this episode of The Vurge, Rebecca welcomes Alvin Haygan, Jr. to continue the conversation on organizational change management. Together they peel back the layers of fear and resistance that often shroud transitions in healthcare IT, revealing the human heart of innovation. Discover how Alvin navigates these delicate shifts, turning apprehension into active participation and skepticism into collaboration. Small victories and personal acknowledgments—whether a handwritten note or a shared cookie—become the currency of a thriving organizational culture under his watch.
Thanks for listening! Like what you hear? Follow us on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and be sure to subscribe to The Vurge for the latest episodes and more!
Interested in being a guest on the show? Click here to learn more.
Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of the Verge. Today we have Mr Alvin Hagen. Welcome, sir.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're glad to have you. Alvin and I met maybe a few weeks ago when we totally hit it off and and had lots of great conversations, so we thought we'd put it all here on the Verge and capture it. So Alvin is an amazing change management thought leader and in healthcare and IT we go through lots of change, so it's great to have this as a topic. So, alvin, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, your education, where you've come from and how you've gotten to where you are today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, first and foremost, before I start, I just want to say that all the views that I express are on behalf of myself and not the views of the company that I work for. But, with that said, let you know that, first of all, my name is Alvin and no, I am not a chipmunk, even though my mother used to yell Alvin back in the day, which is totally embarrassing. Oh my god, oh my god.
Speaker 1:I bet it was.
Speaker 2:But from an educational perspective, I got my undergrad at Western Kentucky University, go Hill, toppers and Marketing. I got my master's degree master's of business administration at Troy University, go Trojans, and I definitely am a people person. When it comes to change management, I believe in the people, and the people are really important in regards to how they transition over to, from current to future state, and so, from a change management perspective, I always want to mention the people side of change, because if I don't mention that, then I'm not doing my job, and if I'm not doing my job, then I'm not helping the people do what they can do every single day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. One of the big things that hit me when we talked a few weeks ago was the fact that you included the people so much and meeting them where they are and showing empathy. Can you talk a little bit about that and examples that you've used along your journey?
Speaker 2:I think that slowness to change means that people are fearing the new, and so, when it comes to the people, you got to understand that people don't resist change. They resist being changed, and so when you come into this change management field, you realize how important people are, and so when you're having these conversations about strategy or transformation into IT space even it's a system or a process it has to include people, and so those people are interactive, need to be interactive with they, need to be along the change with you and not just at the end of the change, and you really need to have not only a conversation, but you need to also equip them with the right tools, with the right people, the processes and also anything that they need or feel that is necessary for them to succeed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. How do you, or what is your strategy around including people, but the ones that are sort of stuck in the mud and really are fighting the change because it's going to affect them the most? So what do you do in your strategy around helping them get there on the journey?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the people who are stuck in the mud actually are my favorite people, to be honest with you.
Speaker 1:Me too, me too, me too.
Speaker 2:I'm one of the ones that actually are realistic. They see the change for what it is and they understand the impact of the change and they realize like hey, this is something that's going to really change the way that I do work.
Speaker 2:And so those are the people that you really want to get on your side early and you really want to have a conversation with them and actually talk about why are they resisting the change. So, having that and understanding what they're doing in regards to their daily actions regarding this particular change, you kind of get a sense of why they are really resistant. And then from that, now that they have actually kind of given you the weight off of their shoulders, to you it's more of now kind of like how can we help you move over the hump? And so generally, what we like to do is kind of list out those things and, from a gap analysis perspective, to kind of say okay, what are some of the gaps that can pro as like pro heed this individual for not actually being able to get to the change.
Speaker 2:And I think one of the things that would really be important to note is that sometimes it's not about getting them to the end state. Sometimes it's about getting them to just move over to neutral right, because sometimes not everybody is going to be a fan of the change, just because there's different politics that go on and things of that nature. But if you can move them even to the neutral zone, that's a win right, because now they're not a fan, but they're still doing it because of the fact that they realize like, hey, well, you know what it is what it is, but we have to get over to this. But if you can, sometimes what I like to do is get actually people who are other stakeholders that are significant, that actually have a lot of political turn, that it can be able to say, hey, guys, you know what? This is awesome, you should be a part of this, this is going to be great. So that actually allows people to say, wow, okay, this is something you know.
Speaker 3:I wouldn't be a part of this.
Speaker 2:This is interesting. So there's so many things that you can do, but those are just a few that I have on my play.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like putting the individuals that are having the hardest time with the change right in the focus groups or right in the mix, so that it One, they feel like they're involved, but two, so that they're also seeing the change and the decisions getting made around the change, so they're able to understand it at a deeper level along the way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and sometimes you want to get them into the workflow or the process maps or those things like that so they can see the well called the chili making, so they can see exactly what's going on. And it's always really interesting to find those people who are really not wanting this to change. They are the ones that kind of is like hey, this is a bigger opportunity to do something else, and once they see that they illuminate and they get really excited about those things as well.
Speaker 1:Right, right, right. I had an instance I won't call out the store, but I did post it on LinkedIn where I went to return a address at a store and the employee had to go through 26 steps, something like that.
Speaker 1:I forget the actual number to actually do that change in the system, and she was kind of just saying, oh well, you know that's how it is and for me, being a change maker and somebody who likes process improvement, I encouraged her to talk to her management and that it shouldn't take this many steps. What do you do or what do you advise people when they're in that situation and they might be scared to bring that change to leadership, they might fear their job or something like that? And how do you bring it in a collaborative way and not like the house is on fire up to the ivory tower as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, actually, and great observation. I think the measure of intelligence is the ability to change. So, if that's the case for me, one of the things I would like to do from a change perspective is make sure that you have data. Data is key, right, and data can be qualitative or quantitative. Now, if you have that data, you can present that data in a way that is simple and easy to understand to leadership and also corral individuals around you that can be able to kind of speak for you as well and have tidbits of information from them too. That creates a powerful case for change.
Speaker 2:I think also, many times, it's not only just having those conversations, but also having conversations with that leader's peers and getting them on board as well. And so, if you have those, the data which is really important to have and for the people, but also the peers and then also have suggestions right, because you don't want to just come with data without a suggestion. You want to be able to have a suggestion that's going to give you. This is what I propose, this is what it's going to take, this is the amount of time, cost and effort. That is what a leader wants to see. They want to be able to see that and then make a choice, and usually I like to get people choices kind of very similar to your cart analogy A or B right, which one you can go with A but you may be missing out on something or B may have something and you may be.
Speaker 2:It may take a little bit more time, so it depends on what your flavor is and allow them to pick based off of that, and I think that's where leaders get a real sense of what change management can actually do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I relate change management and some of the biggest changes I've gone through you know, ehr implementations and stuff like that to my children when they they're still young, but they were in kindergarten and so I feel like adults are very similar. And so when I would offer my five year old you know, you can only have this color popsicle, this flavor and they would throw the temper tantrum on the floor. No, I don't want you know. But, then if I said well, you can have these three flavors.
Speaker 1:But these are your options, and this is what you know what will happen if you have the green one. It's actually sour.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know the other colors actually like spicy salsa hot.
Speaker 1:You know like don't just go and look at the color. Yeah, like, here's the backing to it. Um, it was. It was a lot easier to help them get to the answer and help them understand, and so I love that you Include the data, because I feel in healthcare it's not. It's still not transparent enough, and but that's how we get the end-usiness, especially the positions, to understand why the change is coming.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And measuring effectiveness is truly important, right, because you know if you're Communications or you're doing anything from a tool perspective, you want to make sure that you know. You're kind of measuring the success, right. So if you're doing any type of you know Project or program, you want to make sure that people know where you started in the baseline and you also want to know what it looks like After the fact, and so very important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. You're sort of alluding to the current and future state and gap analysis that are done and I at first you know I was skeptical back early in my career why do we have to do all this work? We know what our current state is. Why do we have to map it out? Right, and others sort of thought that way. But but then when you actually take a current state and you put it on top of a future and you realize All of these extra, especially when one from paper record to an EHR, all these extra steps that were happening on paper that you could take away using the computer, it was fascinating right.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean, the world of digitization has changed everything right from. You know, people used to have foul, foul cabinets, a huge documents, and then now it's all on one, like you know, open drive, right, and so it's kind of like, hey, we have to get our act together because we need to make sure that we can be able to Find whatever record, what we need, and so, because of that, simplification creates more sophistication, right? And so now we have a sophisticated model now, where you are having conversations with people to Now do things that you haven't done before. So now you're seeing yourself not only in sophistication but into innovation, and so there's a lot going on, especially in regards to those implementations one of the things that you talked about when we chatted was Celebrating the winds along the way, and I absolutely love that because change is so hard.
Speaker 1:Lots of change, especially, and I just go to implementing an EHR because everybody can relate. It takes a long time, takes a year. Yes, we want to celebrate at the end, but tell me what you do to celebrate those changes along the way, because I think it's so important.
Speaker 2:Celebrating the change along the way is huge, right, because I think a lot of times, people want to just, you know, implement and go on. But when you're dealing with people, people want to be recognized for the work that they do, and so, for, celebrating change along the way is hitting certain milestones and taking a step back and saying great job, you've done something that is really great, but we have more to go, and actually maybe it's a kudos. You know you can send a kudos out to individuals to do that. It could be as simple as a cookie on someone's desk or a note from someone. Those actually go a long way and a lot of people don't realize that.
Speaker 2:But from a leadership perspective, it shows that change leadership is not A position, it's an action, right, and so you're actually being there, and so I think it's truly important, and it's something that even as you I know you talked about your children for me myself, I have two children, and I think about that in regards to their small wins, right, and so my son, who's nine months from him actually now, he's crawling all over the place and starting to stand up. I celebrate those wins, right, I celebrate that and yay, great job. And also from my daughter, as she's reading, you know, celebrating her, you know learning her phonics and things of that nature, and so those little things create big things in the future.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it helps pull them along the way as well to keep supporting the changes that are coming down the pike right, absolutely. I also think that Celebrating the changes and bringing these people along Everybody, not just the ones that you know don't want the change helps develop the Organizations culture. So you don't want the changes decided at the top, because then the culture really Becomes flat and people don't want to be Participator or maybe even not even work as hard. How have you seen it? I think that affect the culture in in your world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you know the culture is, you know, really important. You know there used to be. This is saying about, you know, the culture, each strategy for breakfast, and one of the things that I found is that culture is actually Dominant. It is like the, it's the pervasive Theme across an organization. You know, you can go any place, you can talk strategy, you can talk, you know Anything, but if you don't understand the culture, nothing will be done.
Speaker 2:And so, for me, I have found that, you know, celebrating wins is it's kind of like a it's.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like a penicillin when it comes to bad culture. Right, because once you are going into, you know, a culture where things are down and people are, you know, tired, and you start celebrating them, they seem to become lively, people start getting excited, they are, and then they get curious too, right, why are you doing this? For me? Right, who are you? Yeah, that's before, right, and those are great things because it shows that, hey, you're not dead. You just haven't, you know, you just haven't got the right medicine, right, and we're here to prescribe, and so, you know, it energizes not only the workforce but it also Energizes leadership, right, because leadership may have been, you know mundane, right. And so now they see that, oh, there's something new in town that's actually getting people more lively. Now they're starting to change their nose, and it's infectious, I would say as well, because once you know you start doing it one place, it continues to go on in other places, because they see the impacts of that as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and only affects the bottom line. When the culture is in a positive state, then in a negative state or rocky right Absolutely, and bottom line is a huge right.
Speaker 2:So you know, when you think of a CEO, that's what he's thinking about. He's thinking about how can we make sure that the bottom line is correct and CFOs thinking the same thing. And so if you have a healthy culture, that, predominantly, will be a greatness to the bottom line.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think a lot of organizations still are so focused about that bottom line that they forget that there's Humans and people working for them, and kindness can go such a long way.
Speaker 2:Well, we also have the robots working for us too now. So you know it's funny, but you know these robots are also thinking about that too as well, and so you know it's having those things, having those conversations and allowing people, Giving people a little bit of grace too, because you know, the old way is not. It's not a bad thing. It's just the fact that it is something that has been dated right and so kind of sometimes you have to honor the past, but then you can move on to the future.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, let's switch over and talk about the amazing stuff you're doing to bring diversity into our field, and I'll let you go from there. Go ahead, tell us what you're doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure. So one of the things from our field that I'm really passionate about is something called DMPs of color. That is actually I'm on the advisory board of that and really what we are doing. It's a DMP is a color builds a community that creates opportunities for nurses of color through networking, mentorship and advocacy to increase diversity in the nursing practice. One of the things that's really cool is that we have like five clear impact areas, and those areas are clinical practice, leadership, equity, diversity and inclusion and anti racism, and also research and academia. So those are huge to me, and the reason why it's really a big deal is because of the fact that they are trying to be ground breakers in regards to the nursing practice, because we want to be able to have access to everyone and we believe that diversity and inclusion creates superior results, and so diversity of all types, but especially in regards to those that are up color.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I think that just circles in so good with the change management, because diversity and diverse people bring in different ideas and different ways of thinking. And add that on top of all the change that's going on, you can really have some amazing solutions and outcomes with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it definitely brings you know, for lack of better words color to the conversation, right? So, and from that perspective, you know, it actually like you look at the world in a different viewpoint improve. Someone who has been to many countries, I would say that as you see the world, you realize that the world is. You are so small compared to the world, and so this is so important, and so, for me, the things that Danielle and Selena are doing from the DMP of color space is just truly magical. And not only that if you all want to donate, you can donate at dmpsofcolororg slash. Donate to help out with their doing.
Speaker 1:You all had a big conference this year, correct? Did you get to go?
Speaker 2:I did not, because I have my nine month year old and so at the time he was a little bit younger and so I didn't want to actually leave for the, especially for the first year. But I'm definitely trying to make that attendance for next year. But, talking to Danielle and everyone else, it was amazing. And I got to see the pictures and everything else, and so I was truly excited for that.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. That's awesome. Is there anything else, any awesome topics that you want to bring up today? Well, you know.
Speaker 2:I heard a real great quote recently and I just wanted to share it. Oh, I love quotes.
Speaker 1:I'm a quote. Junkie, yeah, junkie, go ahead.
Speaker 2:So and it was you know. It said that yesterday. I thought I was clever, so I wanted to change the world. Today, I am wise, so I'm changing myself, and I thought that was truly unique, because the fact that change begins not with just the people that you're trying to impact, but it begins with you, right, and so you have to make sure when you're doing changes is like are you willing to change before you're trying to change someone else, right? And they got so important, especially in times of today where things are turbulent. There's a lot of different viewpoints, but, as most of the individuals who have said who are you know, they always say that the strongest survive, but it's the one who move the change and survives the most. So that's the one I would think of, but that's pretty much it.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love that quote. That's, that's awesome. I do end every podcast asking everyone what your superpower is. I might be able to guess yours, but I want you to let us know what your, what your, what you think your superpower is.
Speaker 2:You know I have I've been blessed to say that I have had different gifts but I would say for me is positively, you know, providing vision to change, and I think that I'm really positive in regards to that. I get excited when I talk to individuals about change and it's just because the things I've been through through my life and so I think that you know I try to push people along as best as I can and also to allow them to succeed as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think you're a great change maker and I would add, with the positive twist to that, because just the little bit I've known and talked to you, your energy through the, through the zoom camera, just is is awesome and just makes you want to get up and do something. So I can tell you, help those people through those changes in a positive light and it's amazing to have those people. So thank you so much, alvin. It was a pleasure. I hope I get to meet you in person someday.
Speaker 2:Likewise, likewise, definitely. It's been a pleasure being on this podcast and I look forward to talking to you soon.
Speaker 3:Thanks for tuning into the Verge podcast brought to you by Divergent, a leading healthcare IT consulting firm. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Be sure to hit the follow button to stay up to date with the latest IT developments and the exciting ways tech is transforming healthcare today.