The Case for Leaving Godless Places with Joel Webbon

How should Christians think about leaving godless blue states? In this episode, I talk with pastor Joel Webbon about his new book, Fight by Flight: Why Leaving Godless Places is Loving Godless Places. 

We'll also talk about the  upcoming Right Response Christendom 2.0 Conference, which is about seven doctrines: Reformed Confessionalism, Covenant Theology, Biblical Patriarchy, Presuppositionalism, Kyperianism, General Equity Theonomy, and Post-Millennialism. Sit tight as we unpack the controversies surrounding biblical patriarchy and contemplate its future trajectory. I will be joining Joel at the conference to speak about biblical patriarchy. 

We further delve into the intriguing dynamics of biblical patriarchy, exploring the implications for the roles of husbands and wives. Joel and I rigorously evaluate the essence of distinctly feminine domestic applications in women's Bible studies. How should a husband utilize his authority as a husband to oversee his wife's spiritual formation? We broaden our discussion to encompass the concept of Complimentarianism, investigating its societal, familial, and church implications.

Towards the end of our conversation, we navigate the turbulent waters of 'staying and fighting' versus 'fleeing and fighting' in progressive contexts. We scrutinize the current struggles of MacArthur-type churches, the compromises made by Keller-type churches, and how effectively others are pushing back against the wokeness of progressive contexts. Join us as we assess the impact of these decisions on state taxes, church funding, and the power dynamics of applied theology. Finally, we reflect on the importance of faithfully preaching revelation, interpretation, and application, and the implications of the decision to stay and fight or flee and fight in progressive contexts. Get ready for a riveting discussion that promises to challenge your perspectives and provoke deep thought.

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Transcript

Eric Conn: 0:00

This episode is brought to you by Salt and Strings Butchery in Southern Illinois. Order your custom beef today by visiting saltandstrings. com or use the link in the show notes. This episode is also brought to you by Barbell Logic, the premier online coaching service for Barbell Strength Training. Get your first month free by signing up at barbelllogiccom. Slash hard men or use the link in the show notes. Welcome to this episode of the Hard Men Podcast. I'm your host, Eric Conn, and joined today by the one and only Mr. Start-a-fight on Twitter himself, Joel Webbon. Joel, thanks for joining me for this episode of the podcast.

Joel Webbon: 0:42

My pleasure. With our powers combined we could upset millions of people.

Eric Conn: 0:48

I want to talk about two things. We'll talk about your book in just a minute and the firestorm that that created. But before we do that, there's another firestorm coming next year and you're putting on a conference. You've went out and gotten the most shock jock people you could possibly get to go to a conference. So tell me just a little bit about the conference. Who's going to be speaking? What's the theme?

Joel Webbon: 1:10

Yep, so Christendom 2.0 is the title, Blueprints for Christendom 2.0, highlights seven doctrines for ruling the world. And we're going to be talking about the seven doctrines as follows Reformed confessionalism, covenant theology, biblical patriarchy, presuppositionalism, Kuyperianism, General Equity Theonomy and post-millennialism. And I had, I've got multiple guys. I've got Doug Wilson, I've got your very own songbird of Ogden, Brian Sauve.

Eric Conn: 1:41

He's going to be there, so I've got all these guys and I had Michael Foster.

Joel Webbon: 1:46

But then Michael Foster decided that he needed to reprioritize I totally get it. His mother, God bless her she just recently passed away and so he's kind of reprioritizing some things and trying to stay a little bit more local for this year. And so I was thinking man, Foster, he's biblical patriarchy guy. People know him in that sphere and I want to replace him. I thought you know, this gives me an opportunity to replace him with someone who's maybe a little softer, somebody who's not really good at it, somebody who's not quite as controversial, you know, somebody who just plays it safe.

Eric Conn: 2:19

Yes, I like where this is going.

Joel Webbon: 2:21

I thought what if I replaced Michael Foster with Eric Conn, right after the huge controversy this last weekend on Twitter and to be able to announce it? I mean, the timing and the providence of God is really just you, just sometimes God, just he, just you know, he opens the windows of heaven and pours you out such a blessing you don't have room enough to receive it. And so I just thought, man, the timing is perfect. We got to let people know that Eric Conn is going to be talking about women not being in sports and yoga pants at our conference.

Joel Webbon: 2:55

Yeah, I'm excited and I'm honored to have you man. Thanks for saying yes.

Eric Conn: 2:58

Yeah, absolutely, it's my pleasure. You know, joel, I was going to ask you. It seems like since we started our ministries you know Michael Foster, myself, yourself, pastor Brian, here in Ogden it seems like you know a lot of the subject matter, like biblical patriarchy. It's kind of it's become more of a commonplace conversation, but with that, it also seems like there's been a lot more people opposing it. Yeah, and so I want to get your take. Do you think that's true, and do you think it's because some of these ideas are being mainstreamed that you're seeing more and more opposition and more kind of viral tweets and angry feminists?

Joel Webbon: 3:35

That's a great question. I don't know, man, you and I have talked about it offline. I feel like you've got a pretty good take on the situation, like appealing to Aaron Renn. I actually just recorded with him yesterday.

Eric Conn: 3:48

Oh, nice yeah.

Joel Webbon: 3:49

We won't release it for a little while. But talking about that article, where he was, it's basically like and I'm not. I don't mean any disrespect, but this is literally what it is it was Tim Keller's death bed strategy for a complimentary and compromise is what it could be. It was six months. It was like and you could tell, I mean, he's really sick at this point. He's barely hanging on. It's like I've got to do one last thing and what is the last thing that I'm going to give it all for? To push across the finish line. A meticulous strategy, explicit strategy for complementarians to compromise and link arms with egalitarians. So if we think that that's not something, at least a part of the equation, then I think that's kind of naive. What do you think?

Eric Conn: 4:31

Yeah, I think we've seen a lot of people shifting, a lot of people going from like complementarians that we once agreed on stuff, and whether it was women in sports or something like that. Well, fast forward to now and I think those guys are shifting to what Aaron described as anti fundamentalism.

Joel Webbon: 4:46

Yeah.

Eric Conn: 4:47

So I think you're seeing a realignment of the camps, which is definitely happening. I also think that people are having to take more seriously things like biblical patriarchy. One of the things that I have continued to argue and I think this is probably what makes people mad is complimentarianism was invented in the late 80s. It's not the historical position of the church right 1988. Yeah, so typically we have pretty firm ground. If we say I have close to 2000 years and you have like 20 or 30 years and your stuff happens to line up with some of the changes in feminism, I wonder, Joel, I do want to get your take do you think biblical patriarchy will make a comeback? Do you think it will get more mainstream than it already is? What do you foresee happening there?

Joel Webbon: 5:35

Definitely, because there's some things that it's just well for one. You and I, we're both post-millennial in our eschatology, so we think it's a matter of when and not if. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we definitely think that Christ, everybody believes Christ wins. The difference is, does Christ win despite a losing church or does Christ win through a victorious church? And so we believe. When we say Christ wins, we're saying that Christ is going to win through his bride, his body here on earth, and that win is going to be tangible, it's going to be literal, it's going to be gradual in real time and real human history, all culminating in his final return. So in that sense, because I'm post-millennial, yeah, I think biblical patriarchy, because it's precisely that biblical that it will make a comeback, that aside. So that's the first and foremost answer. That aside, there's certain things that like gravity, that you just can't, you're just not going to beat. You know what I mean.

Eric Conn: 6:26

Nature always finds a way.

Joel Webbon: 6:27

That's right, man, I'm literally just going to say it. I keep thinking about Jurassic Park. It's just like you're just you're not going to be to T-Rex and you're also. You're not going to smash the patriarchy. It's cute, that's right, but it's just not going to happen. You're not going to smash patriarchy, you're not going to smash gravity, you're not going to smash engineering and mathematics, and two plus two is four. There's just certain things that God has built into his world. He's the father, it's the father's world, and the father works through human fathers, civil fathers, ecclesiastical fathers, civil fathers and the reason why I know patriarchy now.

Joel Webbon: 7:02

That doesn't mean patriarchy is going to be successful in the next 15 minutes. It doesn't mean that it's going to be popular. It doesn't mean you and I in our lifetime will win although I think we will and I can explain that but it's going to win one way or another, and one of those ways could be the West just continuing to collapse. We're already halfway there. Why not finish the job Like we can?

Joel Webbon: 7:27

Just, the Bible is clear, like Isaiah says, that it's actually a judgment of God on wicked nations to give to them women as rulers, women and children as rulers. And that's what we have right now. We have two kinds of leaders. We have female leaders and female adjacent leaders. That's it. You are not allowed to lead in society in any realm politically, culturally, with media and in the church.

Joel Webbon: 7:56

I would argue, even in much of evangelicalism. You cannot lead unless you are a woman or a woman adjacent, and that dog don't hunt. That just doesn't work. That's leaning towards our demise because ultimately it's a rebellion against God. It's not leaning towards our demise because women are worthless. Women are awesome, but women are awesome in the thing that God constructed them for, just like men are awesome in the thing that he's constructed us for.

Joel Webbon: 8:21

But if you deliberately, in rebellion against God, say that we're not going to let any men lead and we're going to have a bunch of stay-at-home soy dads and then we're going to have women leading the free world, then that nation will collapse. It's just as surely as the sun will rise, as surely as you drop something from a cliff and it falls downward. Two plus two is four, and so, yes, patriarchy will make a comeback, because it's God's design. Will it be popular soon, in our lifetime? I don't know. I think so, but here's one of the big things that I've noticed that we have to deal with Because I've got some guys now reaching out to me and I'm new to this world so maybe you could help me out because you're the hard man podcast but I've got some guys reaching out saying like I had an opportunity to go on Rollo. Do you know who that is?

Eric Conn: 9:16

Yeah, Rollo Tommasi.

Joel Webbon: 9:17

Yeah, and I've heard that he's done some good things, but I've also seen him on Twitter.

Joel Webbon: 9:24

Extremely perverse, extremely perverse, oh yeah incredible and so yeah, and so like. So here's my point is, with the, the, I think the challenge with restoring patriarchy as a part of public discourse where it does, you know, pushing the Overton window back towards the scripture, not just for the sake of doing it, but back towards the scripture and what God says is true, I think one of the big challenges is is not just feminism but porn Like, and what I mean by that is like we're. We have an uphill battle because we're not just combating, you know, the, the feminist, you know, or internalizing a soft feminist of evangelicalism, but then we're, we're trying to sell men on something where they don't get any of the female adjacent praise from the masses if they join us, but they also don't get to sleep with a bunch of chicks like they would, if you know, if they join Rollo.

Eric Conn: 10:24

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Eric Conn: 11:59

So I think, you know, you think about social media platforms, even Twitter, for everything good that Elon Musk has done. I mean, porn is everywhere on that platform and they have a financial reason to keep it there. It keeps people on the platform and so I think, yeah, you're seeing more of that. I'm also interested because, like we were talking about the amount of pushback toward our camp coming from complementarians in the form of strawmen. So you'll notice a lot of people using rhetoric like, even though I've clarified it with certain people in that camp, they refuse to hear it, where they're like, oh, you guys are red pill, tradwife, and I'm like, no, we actually. Or like, oh, biblical patriarchy. So, andrew Tate, and you're like, well, this is actually a guilty by association fallacy. Yeah, and a strawman, because none of our camp is actually arguing for that.

Joel Webbon: 12:50

Well, and we're not even associate. That's the crazy thing. It doesn't even work as a fallacy. No, it's not like you're the one who Andrew Tate was, and until, seriously, about four or five weeks ago.

Eric Conn: 12:59

Yeah, I mean Brian and I have talked about this, like I've seen on Instagram. I've probably seen two Andrew Tate clips. One of them was like Fallen obscene, and I was like the only thing we've ever done with Andrew Tate is be like, yeah, this is really not that good. I mean, yeah, this is a problem. So for all these people to be saying like, oh, you know, you're red pill tradwife Andrew Tate crowd, I think what's happening is they see that it's picking up traction among the people that they wish to garner as an audience, and I think they're trying to resist that as firmly as possible. But it probably is an indication that it's being more successful and a little bit more mainstream than it was even three years ago, right, so I think that's probably part of it. The other thing I want to ask you about, joel, is you've seen this you have been online advocating that women should not be allowed to learn how to read, and which is a joke. I'm sure that'll get clipped out by somebody.

Joel Webbon: 13:58

Yeah, I told you this. I told you this, eric. Like the insensitivity and really just downright cruelty, because here's the deal All these people, like a million people, are watching this video and like thousands of people commenting and retweeting and dunking on me for five days straight and the level of, by the way.

Eric Conn: 14:19

What was the original tweet?

Joel Webbon: 14:20

Well, here's the thing. No, no, it was a sermon clip, but the insensitivity was it's like you're dunking on me and I'm over here and I've just now come to the realization that the average woman in our civilization even knows how to read Like. I'm already crushed.

Joel Webbon: 14:38

You're adding insult to injury, no, the guy's painted me as a misogynist for almost a week straight, relentlessly. It wasn't a tweet, it was a clip, and so in the clip, yeah, okay, so basically all I'm doing, and it doesn't include this context because people, they're trying to destroy me, but the context is I'm talking about tyranny, and so I'm talking about the state and the church and the home and I say in a nutshell in the civil realm you've got authority over a bunch of people, but a small degree of authority. So it's a mile wide, inch deep. Ecclesiastical fathers have more authority, deeper, greater depth of authority, smaller scope, and so less people. In the realm of the church and then in the home, you have massive authority, but over a very, very limited amount of people. And so then with that, I said, for instance, there are four people in my life, no more and no less, but only four people in my life that I have the authority over their diet, what they eat, what they wear, their wardrobe. I have authority even over when they go to the bathroom. Now my kids are five, three, two and one.

Joel Webbon: 15:49

So when I say authority, so people, of course immediately the least charitable interpretation is like he's got a 16 year old and he probably made him hold it for seven hours and I'm like that's seriously what you think. I mean, and that's how you know people hate you. It's not objective, it's not a love for God's word. These are not serious people, these are people who are blind with rage. They just hate you, that's it. They just hate you. So I mean, even Foster immediately came out and he was like he's talking about potty training, which is exactly what I was talking about. I'm talking about with my three year old before bed. All right, we're going to get our jammies on, go potty, but that is still authority. We need to go potty and so anyways. But the point is, yeah, a dad's got a lot of authority.

Joel Webbon: 16:34

And then it got into, I said, and also now on the husband front, that's the dad front, on the husband front. And so then I kind of shifted gears and I talked about women's Bible studies, which I don't particularly like for a few reasons. One, because that's probably the number one door where heresy will enter the church is in a women's only Bible study kind of context, where they're reading Beth more, they're reading Joyce Meyer, those kinds of things. Now, that's not always the case, of course it's not, but that is one concern. That's not a reason not to do it, but that is something to look out for and to be on guard for. The male elders and the husbands, especially their individual wives, should be on guard. All right, you're going to do the Bible study. I would like to know what are you guys talking about?

Joel Webbon: 17:18

Secondly, though beyond just that, because a lot of times I've noticed some of the women's only context, I think you can be teaching the whole gambit of theology, the sovereignty of God, you can be teaching about this and about that and the other, all these different things theologically, but there does need to be an emphasis on a distinctly feminine domestic application. If there's not, then my only question is then why can't I come with my wife? Why can't that like? I just want to know, why is it women's only? If it's not about women, if it's not distinctly and you know, expressly for women, with with teaching them the whole gamut of theology, but with the express purpose of how to apply the whole counsel of God in their chief roles as women, as wives and mothers, lovers of children, submissive to their husband. Not slanders are given to much wine keepers at home if it's not coming with a specific feminine Application, then I just want to know like what? Why is this a women's Bible study? Why isn't this just a family Bible study? Why isn't this a couples Mary couples Bible study? Why isn't this? And so, anyway, so I, immediately, I just have some things that I've just learned over the years as a husband and as a pastor to be on guard for.

Joel Webbon: 18:36

And so then I went one step further get, you know, getting to the controversy, and I said so husbands, you know, getting to, what kind of authority does a husband have with his wife? Well, one example would be that a husband could, that he has the authority to govern and oversee His wife's spiritual formation. What is she reading, what is she looking? And I gave an example of and I've only done it one time, but that was enough for the feminist and you know, complementarian feminist. But you know, but I repeat myself, and so you know, I gave one example.

Joel Webbon: 19:09

I said there was one particular book, and this was not a Joyce Meyer heretical book. I've never had asked my wife not to read something like that, because I've discipled her, she knows not, she doesn't want to read something that's heretical. This one she wanted to read because it's well within the bounds of orthodoxy, written by someone that we both respect. But it was explicitly the whole book was purposed to persuade credo Baptist to become Pato Baptist. And what I told my wife is I said, not only as your husband but also as because I currently pastor a 1689 credo Baptist church I don't want, I don't think that it is good for the unity of our marriage or the unity of our church, for my wife and the senior pastor's wife, which is one in the same, for her to subject her conscience to being potentially bound by the arguments of Pato baptism in such a way that she believes that her husband and pastor is Currently in a state of sin by withholding water baptism from the children of believers. That's just not, that's not good. And so what I said is we'll read it together and I say that in the clip you know like so now we're not gonna read that. I know there'll be some good arguments, I know there'll be some bad arguments, things I agree with, things I don't, but we'll read that one together and and this is the thing that you know, people just lost their mind and you will not outpace me. And here's the deal, my wife you want to.

Joel Webbon: 20:34

Sometimes people will write, you know, email me, like what vaccine should we give to our kids? And I'm like I don't know. My wife knows my wife. My wife has read because she's a mom. She, she is just. Her focus is in the home. She is always looking into our family, into our household. She's read all the books about which vaccines are dangerous and which ones you shouldn't get, which ones are unethical. She is far outpaced me with vaccines, with nutrition, with meals, with a child development, with sleep training, with all. I mean there's a million different things that she has outpaced me in.

Joel Webbon: 21:07

So my point was not to say that she won't outpace me, period, but my point was to say, in this arena, the example I just gave no, I don't want my wife to become a pedo Baptist three years before I do. How does that serve anybody? And that's not, that's, that's not good for a husband and wife to be divided on On on the issue of baptism to the point where the husband's still gonna have to make the call. And now the wife the feels like the husband is sinning and and depriving her babies of something that they need and that God has like it's just Do it together. And if the husband can't do it right now, he shouldn't use that as an excuse and be lazy, right? So he you know he should try to get to it promptly, but it's so. It is a proper and permissible biblical answer for the husband to say I don't want you to read this without me. I'm not ready to read it yet, but I will read it with you at a later time.

Joel Webbon: 22:02

Yeah if you can't say that as a husband and I did a poll on Twitter to this end I said I just want to know, not in theory, but in practice, functionally, how much authority does a man have in his home? And I gave options. I said none, I'm an egalitarian feminist. None, I'm a soft, complimentary and feminist. Or none, I'm a hard, complimentary and feminist.

Joel Webbon: 22:21

I just wanted to know for research purposes? Um, you know, we know that the answer is none. He has no, and that's the thing. That's what I'm getting at. I know I'm being a little facetious and, you know, dramatic here, but but it really is important, it really does matter. At the end of the day, the vast majority of evangelicals if we're talking about application, if we're talking about practice, we're talking about practice. If we're talking about practice, little.

Eric Conn: 22:44

Allen Iverson.

Joel Webbon: 22:45

Yeah, they don't believe a husband has any authority at all. It's all just theoretical.

Eric Conn: 22:52

Well, I think that's functionally, Joel. It was a good, uh, filtering mechanism, I think, because A lot of the pushback I saw was actually from women in the complementarian camp. Yes, and you're starting to see more of this on Twitter, like these kind of people in our camp reformed Christians, but particularly women, who are maligning pastors, misrepresenting what pastors are saying, jumping all over this. I saw a lot of them that went around that were like, well, I'm just, I'm just. I feel bad for the pastors Out there who married a foolish woman that they have to guard what she reads. And I was thinking, well, every woman, scripture tells us, is more easily deceived because she's a woman. That's right, and so even the best women I would include my wife in this She'll always ask me hey, you know, I saw some ladies talking about this book.

Eric Conn: 23:46

Is this a good book? Is what should we? You know, is this something that I should read or, you know, not read? It's more of like, if you trust your authorities and God put them in your life for a purpose to guard and protect the flock, including the teaching, then why wouldn't you want to know what that authority had to say about this? What you know? We do this as pastors all the time. You know, we're going to be working on Uh, books on parenting. Here's what we recommend. Um, here's some stuff to avoid. And people who are part of the church body will do the same thing. They'll say, okay, great, we're gonna, we're gonna follow that right, um. So I wonder if you were like did you notice that with the complimentarian camp, that that's actually where a lot of the pushback was coming from? I mean, I'm not surprised when, definitely, well, yeah, the rainbow jihad.

Joel Webbon: 24:32

Feminist that hates christ is an atheist, like what it like. They yeah, I mean a couple of them, but that that that's not what made me go viral. That was not. The million views were not coming from them. It was complementarians, 100 percent reformed, uh, complementarians like john mccarthur, camp Complementarians, and the only thing that I noticed it's a little bit different than what you just espoused is that, um, it was it. You said it was like, uh, women within the reform camp complementary.

Eric Conn: 25:01

Yeah.

Joel Webbon: 25:03

Yeah, I would just say it was women of both sexes, you know, and so like it was women, um, but of both sexes, and so Uh, but it, yeah, it was from. In my experience it was there was a lot of men behaving like women, um, to be certain, but but who were very, very, very publicly outspoken about how misogynist and how dangerous and how concerned. Right there are theobros, but they're also concerned bros and they were very concerned about this one here.

Eric Conn: 25:32

Yeah, I mean it is somewhat shocking. I think there were a lot of people who for a long time I know I did I thought the complementarian position was the, the conservative one. But it is interesting. I was reading in tim keller's manifesto renewal of the church, whatever Something he said in there. He was talking about the theologies that need to be recovered and, uh, one of the many talked about was the theology of the body. So at this point he's you know I'm I'm with him that we need a better theology of the body for the christian church. Uh, but he mentioned a name as who he would recommend for a good theology of the body and that was sam albury.

Eric Conn: 26:08

Um, and it got me kind of down the wormhole and I started reading About this and I was like, okay, well, most people will remember at some point sam was the uh, this is how he described himself as a gay priest in the UK, right? Uh, he comes over to the us and he starts teaching, teaching what amounts to becoming the same sex attraction, revoiced stuff, right. So what's interesting to me is that if you go to the complementarian, you go to the council of biblical manhood and womanhood. Sam is still recommended on their website. He's recommended by denny burk, he's recommended by pretty much all the complementarians. They had to take. You know he had that living out website. They had to take a bunch of material down and and it was one of those moments, joel, where I realized like this is being espoused by complementarianism in the people in that movement and it's like maybe this is a crack in the foundation that was actually there all along.

Joel Webbon: 26:59

Mm-hmm.

Eric Conn: 27:00

That we're promoting somebody like this about the theology of the body Tim had said in his manifesto. He was like yeah, we really we need to embrace people with same sex attraction in the church and we need to lean on them for their wisdom. And I was thinking about it and I was like can you imagine if, if I put out a manifesto and I was like we need to lean on adulterers and pedophiles and welcome them in the church and you know what, we need to lean on their wisdom. Right, I think most people in the church would probably freak out at that. Um, but as you look at the movement as a whole you know you said 88 till now Do you think a lot of those cracks were actually in in the mix from the beginning?

Joel Webbon: 27:41

I think so, like going back and reading some like Piper even admits that complementarianism was meant to be a Third way halfway house. To appease the the feminist, to appease the egalitarians, that basically hierarchical.

Joel Webbon: 27:56

Right, uh-huh, that it was a way of Trying to get as much of of gods, of gods design for men and women To be able to somehow survive the flood of Of the attacks on patriarchy. It was, it was basic, my point. It was, in a lot of ways I think it was faithless. It was saying if, if we just hold firm, we're going to be destroyed, we won't make, we're not going to make it, um, and so we've got to, uh, we've got to at least repackage, represent. And it wasn't just a repackaging, I mean, it was a difference in substance, um, it really was that.

Joel Webbon: 28:32

Uh, at least one, one major difference would be that complementarianism, uh, would say that the distinction and roles, it did stem in some sense it did stem from a distinction in design, but the only distinction in design was in the physical, only in the physical. So the only difference between men and women is women have hips and men have biceps. So men can, you know, they can bench press, you know. And if you're a broad complementarian like john piper, then you know men, men should, um, only men should, serve in combat roles and women, with their hips, you know, naturally, are going to bear children. So there's distinction in roles stemming from a distinction of design. But the the distinction of design is only as deep as the physical level. But you start reading older theologians On men and women. And it's not just that men and women are different biologically, but that the distinction at the realm of nature, design goes all the way down. It's not just their physical anatomy, is their psychology, emotionally, at every single level, that god has designed men and women, that we think differently. We don't just look different physically, but we think differently, feel differently, behave differently, all the way down. That's why, like cs Lewis I mean we're not talking about you know, 500 years ago, we're talking like you know 100, you less than 100 years ago Cs Lewis in the Chronicles of Narnia, you know, I just I'm reading it to to my, my daughters, because I won't let them read themselves. But, um, no, but I'm reading it to my daughters who are five, three and and, uh, two. And right there, at the very beginning of the silver chair, you've got jill pole and used to scrub and and cs Lewis, the first page of the book is just, is just dunking on Modern education, which would be incredibly conservative compared to our public school system today.

Joel Webbon: 30:26

But he says he calls it the experiment house, is what he calls the school. And he says how you know, they, uh, they take all the children who are misbehaving and instead of, uh, disciplining them, they actually, you know, take them and talk to them about their childhood and how they're actually a victim and all these kinds of things, until you know, until eventually they, they basically are absolved of all guilt. But the other thing that he says the experiment house, that's very, very peculiar and bad, is a negative thing is that they, um, they actually were stupid enough Is what he says, um to, to educate boys and girls together Instead of separately. And he called this is the experiment house.

Joel Webbon: 31:06

And so my point is even CS Lewis who I like CS Lewis, but he's not that based and he's also not that old. We're not talking about, you know, turritan or something you know and CS Lewis even, he's saying he's making fun of schools that would be so progressive in their views of the difference between male and female that they would educate boys and girls together instead of having a separate school for boys and a separate school for girls. That's how far we've come. That's my point.

Eric Conn: 31:37

Yeah, that's really interesting. Speaking of books, Joel, you got a new one out, Fight by Flight, why Leaving Godless Places is Loving Godless Places. This has contributed no little amount of controversy as well. On your behalf, I think maybe part of it is. It actually flies in the face of a lot of the Tim Kellerism. You know, love your city. There's been this huge emphasis on urban centers, you know particularly you left California and so a lot of people who stayed are thinking like Joel's, like encouraging people to leave our churches, basically. So there's been pushback on that level. But I just want to ask you kind of why you wrote the book and why you think there's been as much criticism and pushback as there has been.

Joel Webbon: 32:20

Yeah, I wrote the book because, like you said, I pastored in California and when I was there I was very much in the city for the city mentality, the missional going behind enemy lines. Christ is coming back. He's coming back relatively soon, perhaps next week. The only thing that we're really able to do that has any eternal value whatsoever is to snatch souls from the fire, so we might as well go with the fire as the hottest. I wasn't thinking about building institutions or starting a school or, you know, thinking about a 500-year plan, my great-great-grandchildren and building wealth for, you know, leaving inheritance for my children's children, as a good man or a wise man does. The problem is I wasn't thinking about that. Instead, I was pastoring a church that didn't pay me enough. My wife was working out of the home as a nurse and we're just, you know, doing evangelism. And as I started to mature in my theology and started to see things different, I just started realizing that's not good. And that doesn't mean you can't be a church in California and be faithful. It doesn't mean you can't be an individual Christian family in California and be faithful. But basically I just I realized that for myself and I knew that I wasn't alone a lot of other Christians like this, that I think a lot of people feel that if they were to leave their church, like. Here's one thing that somebody said when I came out with a book some of the controversy he literally said that my book is advocating for doing violence to Jesus. Did you see that tweet? So I don't remember saying that, but I go okay, yeah, so like, and what he was saying is this he's saying he was, you know, constructing a false dichotomy and saying Joel's advocating for moving out of your blue state for the good of reinforcing a red state, but at the expense of your Orthodox, true church that you're leaving behind in that blue state, the one that you're currently a member of. So Joel's hurting the church to help the state, hurting the church for a political advantage. And I do think there's a political advantage. That's part of the book, but that's about a 7% to 8% of the book. The vast majority of the book is about fathers and husbands, our duty to our children, to our grandchildren, to our wives, obedience being more important than sacrifice, all these kinds of things. So, anyways, there is that political piece, but he took it and said that's the whole enchilada, that's all Joel's talking about, and so, essentially, joel's saying that he's encouraging Christians to do something that would politically help us at a civil level, but at the expense of that good church that you're leaving behind, you know, in Manhattan or whatever, and there's so many problems with that. One problem is that that's why I wrote the book. I'm saying all this to answer your question. That's precisely why I wrote the book.

Joel Webbon: 35:19

This guy who tweeted that this is a pastor, this is a pastor. If you don't think that he's telling his church members that, then you're naive. If he's saying it publicly to me on Twitter for thousands of people to see, I guarantee you that if a family comes up to him and says, hey, you know what? My husband just got a great job opportunity where he'll be able to make twice as much we could, we'd be able to, you know, pull our kids out of public school, or we've already got them out of public school, but mom is having to work 20 hours a week out of the home. But she'd be able to be full time, keep her at home, and we'd be able to build this and leave that for our children's children. And we just really feel like the Lord's calling us to go.

Joel Webbon: 36:05

What do you think that pastor's advice is going to be After doing violence to Jesus? That's what his advice is going to be he is going to bind your conscience left and right. And so I wrote the book, not to bind consciences. I wrote the book to loosen all the consciences that I saw being bound by guys like my old self when I was in California, because I knew as my theological convictions changed. This is what I realized.

Joel Webbon: 36:30

I started preaching. You know what? Let's have our wives raise children. Let's have strive for single income families that strive to get out of debt. Let's strive to leave an inheritance to our grandchildren. Let's not use public schools, so that means you're going to have to pay tuition for a Christian school or you're going to have to home school. Also, let's be in a position, not just spiritually and relationally, but also financially, to where we can care for our father and mother as they begin to age and take them into our home, not ship them off to the glue factory all these kinds of things. I started teaching those things and this is what I realized as a pastor in California. I realized that the title of my sermon every single week was five reasons why you should leave my church Interesting.

Joel Webbon: 37:10

If I kept preaching those convictions I wasn't going to have a church. The only way I could have a church is to not preach those things. I'll tell you the sermon that would have made sure, ensured my church's survival in a place like California. Um, missional living, um, count the cost, um in the city for the city, um, you know, uh, going into the like, all all these other, it would all be within the missional evangelistic kind of thing, but with an utter neglect of the father, husband, grandfather, children, wives kind of thing. And so I wrote the book not to bind consciences.

Joel Webbon: 37:48

I wrote the book to loose all the consciences that have been previously bound over the last 15 years by acts 29 by Tim Keller, by gospel coalition and by previous past Joel Webin, in my stupidity, uh, to say you know what, you're allowed to leave that godless progressive state that hates you, hates your wife, hates your kids and you're not doing violence to Jesus. Because here's the false dichotomy You're not leaving the church of Jesus Christ, you're not going apostate, you're leaving that church to go to another Orthodox Bible preaching, gospel believing church. That's insane. So who would ever say you're doing violence to Jesus Christ, his universal, invisible, universal body.

Joel Webbon: 38:29

Oh, I know who would say it A local pastor who, at the end of the day, he knows you're going to another church. You're not doing violence to Jesus, but you're doing violence to him. You're doing violence to him because you're leaving his church. And how's he going to have that ministry and be the next Tim Keller in Manhattan, if everybody leaves Manhattan? So you know what book they can't read? This one, fight by flight. That's what that controversy was about.

Eric Conn: 38:55

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Eric Conn: 40:14

There's some real red lines, I think, that are fast approaching, even for people who said we'll draw a line way over there and it'll never come, and those lines are here. But one of the other things that I've noticed in a lot of those situations is people are describing them to me. Some of these people are even pastors. It's not as if the churches there are putting up an extraordinary aggressive, culture-war type fight against the state, and this is kind of one of the things that it's like well, you want to be in a position where you can push the ball forward for Christendom and for Christian principles wherever you live. Do you get the sense that a lot of these churches maybe a Tim Keller-type church they seem like they're not actually being that effective or aggressive. They say that they're staying, but maybe more like being affected by the culture. Do you think that's true? What's your read on kind of the overall of the state of the churches in those states?

Joel Webbon: 41:08

Yeah Well, tim Keller-type church? For sure, tim Keller, I think, was discipled more by New York than him actually discipling New York. So if it's a Tim Keller-type church that in the city for the city, the third way, like where we're constantly compromising to accommodate the unbeliever then yes, I think that the church is in rough shape. However, a lot of the people who had a problem with my book, to be fair, they're not Tim Keller people. They would share 99% of the problems that you and I have with Tim Keller. They would share those same problems. They would agree with us. I think that, to answer your question, yeah, I think there are churches in these kinds of progressive contexts that are suffering immensely, and many of them Gospel Coalition-type ones in and for the city, jesus' friend of sinners kind of mentality. Actually, yes, they are compromising, but I think there are other ones, like John MacArthur would be an example. He's in LA, it's California. I think there's a lot of MacArthur-type. So there's the Keller-types that are compromising. There's the MacArthur-types that are. I don't think they are. I don't think they're compromising. I think these are faithful guys. They're not woke. They're pushing back against wokeness, pushing back on this.

Joel Webbon: 42:34

We agreed with these guys until very recently. This is a new divine that's emerging. These are the guys that we started this episode talking about that. We agreed with them and they were agreeing with us a year ago and now there's a pivot. I don't know if they, I don't know what's going on, but all of a sudden, they all got orders from someone at the exact same time. They all got the memo. I didn't get it, you didn't get it. We're still saying the same things that we were all saying together very recently, and they're not saying those things anymore.

Joel Webbon: 43:06

They all it reminds me, you know, the best way I could describe it is like Trump, because DeSantis is like viewed as a threat by Trump, and I'm grateful that Trump did a lot of good. But Trump can be effeminate in this regard. He can be overly emotional and everything can be about him. And when DeSantis came on the scene instead of Trump, just you know containing, just you know smooth sailing. You know, stay the course. Instead of that, he started picking on DeSantis from the left and we're watching that. We're like that, ain't it chief? Like do you? Like? Do you know why you got elected in the first place? Do you know? Like, do you know who your base is Like you're gonna start firing shots at DeSantis from the left, like you don't want DeSantis because he might you know, he might get rid of abortion.

Joel Webbon: 43:57

But I'm not crazy like that. I'm like, pfft, you're never gonna get my vote again. Like what are you doing? And that's like that's Med Eva right now, like we all agree that Big Eva had problems. And then Med Eva, you know, and us together like uh-uh, it just like Trump against you know, hillary and stuff. That's like yeah, like that's wrong, that's wicked, that's evil.

Joel Webbon: 44:22

And then all of a sudden, you and me and a handful of other guys 80 Robles, you know and like start podcasts and our, you know, pastoring churches and maybe write a book here or there. And then all of a sudden they're coming out like Trump with DeSantis attacking it, like they shifted left just to distinguish themselves from us. And I don't, honestly, I don't really understand what's going on. So, all that being said, I don't yeah, I don't think the average MacArthur type church that is a faithful church in many regards is suffering by being in a progressive place, but they still have a problem with any kind of strategy or encouragement that maybe you shouldn't live in LA or maybe you shouldn't live in Manhattan.

Joel Webbon: 45:10

I don't know if it's the dispensationalism, I don't know if it's the commitment to losing. I think that might be part of it. I've had some guys reach out to me and say, joe, I think the problem is that, like you, just you are presenting practical strategies to win, and if the Christians listen to you, we'll win. And if we win, it's a massive indictment on the legacy of some of these guys who insisted that the only reason why things were getting worse and worse this whole time was not because of them abdicating their responsibility or any failure on their part, but because it was written in the stars, and that God ordained it, that everything had to get worse. So I don't know, I think that could be right, that could be wrong, but it seems like there's something weird going on.

Eric Conn: 45:53

Yeah, it totally sense the same thing and same as you. I couldn't necessarily put my finger on it, but you see the shift happening. Joe, I wonder if you would just a little bit more unpack this idea of leaving as loving the place and what you see, kind of the net positive of people who do leave, for people who decide that you know that's the right thing for them to do. How can this be part of a positive strategy?

Joel Webbon: 46:19

Yeah Well, the fight by flight kind of thing is. I think that's one of the ways that you fight godless progressive ideology is you stop funding it. So part of the problem is you know people, you know they're making the choice between do I want to flee or do I want to fight, and I, again, I just reject that premise. I think that that's faulty framework. I don't think it works, because staying isn't the only way to fight. In fact, you can fight up close and personal on the ground by being in a blue state, fighting the culture. They're fighting politically there, fighting, you know, of course, spiritually there, sharing the gospel, being a part of a local church, all those kinds of things. But your presence and being there by necessity also causes you not only to fight but also to fund, and it's a hard thing. People don't really want to do this. I didn't want to do this, but it was something that I had to consider and it's painful, but I had to consider okay, how much am I paying in state taxes? What do my state taxes go to? Does it fund Planned Parenthood? How much does it cost for each murdered child? Okay, so this much in state taxes, this percentage of that to Planned Parenthood. This much for each procedure, each murdered child. So okay, so I funded the murder of this many children. Okay now, how many souls did I lead to the Lord over here? How much did I tie through the local church? What did they spend that money on? What is my church doing? And you're sizing this up? And now you hear me for myself. Personally, I was doing pretty good Because as a pastor, I was getting out of a lot of taxes, so I was doing low amount of funding and as a pastor, I was doing a lot of fighting and in the spiritual warfare, preaching the gospel, and I baptized over 100 people in the seven years that I pastored in Southern California and those were real baptisms there. And so, like, I'm talking conversion, baptism and so anyways, all that being said, my point is but even then there was, you know, I think that's the hard thing is am I fighting or am I funding? What would happen if I left, like, think about that for a second.

Joel Webbon: 48:30

There's 16 million professing Christians in the state of California, 42 million total population, 16 million professing Christians If they just left and said, no, that's it, you don't get our tax dollars anymore, you're gonna do this, gavin, like then we're out, sorry, we're out. California would change. California could become a conservative bastion. It was in the past. It could be again if people would just say no. But the way that you say no is you have to leave, you have to. There is no. There is no staying and saying no. Your choice to stay is saying yes. You may be saying no in your preaching and your personal evangelism and this and that, but financially, if you stay, financially, you are saying yes. Now again. All that being said, god called some people to be missionaries.

Joel Webbon: 49:22

I get it, but the fight to answer your question, how is it fighting? How is it loving by leaving? Well, it's loving, I think of like the prodigal son. It says he was in a far distant land. Famine hit the land. He's far off from his father's house. He's feeding pigs, longing to be by the pods, the pods that he was using to feed the pigs.

Joel Webbon: 49:40

And then the text literally says and no one gave him anything. The very next words say and he came to his senses. The servants in my father's house have it better than I do. Part of the reason progressives don't come to their senses is because we keep giving them something. No one gave him anything, then he comes to his senses Right Like that book when giving hurts.

Joel Webbon: 49:59

You know, like we are so overly empathetic as evangelicals, we just we don't realize it. Like God has, like if a man, if he won't work, let him not eat God's economy and the way that God works, it's the worker deserves the wages. It's God is not pro-theft. And so saying no, just like a parent, saying no to their child's selfish desires and disobedient habits, is love. So too, saying no to a civil father in his tyranny and tyrannical demands is loving. And it's loving not just for him, the tyrannical leader, but for all your neighbors in that state to say we're going to tell this dictator no so that he gets back in line and cuts it out and everyone's life is going to be better for it. You're welcome. I think that that is. That's an act of love.

Eric Conn: 51:01

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Eric Conn: 52:08

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Joel Webbon: 53:01

Yeah, again, it just comes down to theology applied. The name of the podcast that I do, our flagship show, is Theology Applied. It should not be novel. That's the most basic thing in the world. There should be a million podcasts called Theology Applied, but there aren't. I think the failure of pastors is not being able to apply theology.

Joel Webbon: 53:19

I've always said that good preaching, faithful preaching, is composed of three parts revelation, interpretation and application. Revelation is not I have a dream or I have a strategy, or it's I have a text. The revelation is God's word. Then interpretation is a faithful exegesis of the text. Application is saying and this is how this text and its meaning, the meaning that God intends by it, this is how it is practically obeyed.

Joel Webbon: 53:43

On the Tuesday afternoon, doug would say theology coming out of your fingertips, that's where you get in trouble. I've realized all my sermons and they're not. I never get in trouble for me posting something. I always get in trouble when someone it's always somebody else they go and find something. They dig it up, then they post it. They cut out some of the context. It makes me look as bad as I possibly can. Boom, I'll go semi-viral in the reformed Christian Twitter verse. But here's the deal. It's always on that third piece. It's always on that third piece, application. It's not just saying, well, this is Ephesians 5, and here's the text, and here's interpretation, the faithful exegesis of the text. If that's all you do and you sit down, you're good. You're good. I mean, sure, again, the rainbow jihad. They're mad, but they're always mad, but you're good. But you get to that third step, application.

Joel Webbon: 54:40

What does it mean for the husband to be the head of his wife, to be an actual federal head that he actually has authority? You say and here is an example when I say application, another way that we could say that is by providing practical examples. That's when they're like, and really all that is. It's not that they disagree with your example, that's what they'll say. They have to say that to appear consistent. It really is that your example just made the revelation and the interpretation real. So really, all you're doing revelation, interpretation, application is you're doing this. You're saying thus, saith the Lord revelation, no, really, the Lord said it. Interpretation, no, I'm serious, the Lord said it. Application. And when you say it the third time no, really, really, really, the Lord actually said this. It's not your example that people are reeling against, it's the fact that God actually said men have authority in their homes, even over their wives.

Joel Webbon: 55:38

People hate it, and I'm talking about Christians hate it, complementarian Christians hate it. And so that whole thing about pastors failing is basically three chapters in the book just talking about applications. Saying that for years, decades, arguably in an overreaction to the moralistic, therapeutic deism, in an overreaction to any accusation of legalism, what evangelicals have done is they have neutered every sermon of any practical application whatsoever. And because we've done that, when all of a sudden there was a real life scenario where we needed to make a practical decision of what to do, christians couldn't do it. We couldn't do it because we were so anemic, our muscles so disatrophied Is that a word? Atrophy? Yeah, atrophy. You're the hard man. I feel like I said something about muscles and you would know. But we were so out of shape theologically, in terms of actually putting theology into practice, that nobody knew what to do.

Joel Webbon: 56:54

Doug Wilson said it really well. He said we were all learning in days, slash weeks, what we should have learned over years, slash decades. And that was true. That was true of me. I have to confess that I got it wrong. For two weeks I was wrong and then I was right. When I was right, I didn't just say hey, I was right and I've always been right, and cite some passage in my church's bylaws about local church autonomy to pretend that we've always stood up against the state. I didn't do that. Instead, I said I was wrong. Now I'm taking the right position, and the first 15 minutes of my first sermon back was an apology and saying, repenting and saying I was wrong. This is how it was wrong and this is why I hope that you can forgive me and trust that I will not make this mistake again, because it's going to happen again. And so my point is those are the things that we had to do. I got it wrong, a lot of guys got it wrong, and it's because we have not been doing theology applied.

Joel Webbon: 57:50

So the failure of pastors, it's a failure of understanding sphere sovereignty. It's a failure of understanding patriarchy, civil fathers, ecclesiastical fathers, familial fathers, knowing what our authority is, what's the jurisdictions of our authority, what we're allowed to do, what we're not allowed to do, when to stand up, when to not stand up, all those costs and freedoms. I talk a little bit about that. It's like well, it's worth doing anything that we got to do if it saves just one life? No, it's not. No, there's 35,000 deaths annually just in the United States because of driving. If you really believe it's worth doing anything to save just one life, the minivan in your driveway proves that you're a hypocrite. You don't actually believe that You're rid of your car. We always, every single day, albeit subconsciously, but every single day, every single person in America, the American people we go through life every day making a decision of paying a certain cost for a certain degree of freedom. So all we're talking about with stuff like COVID in 2020 is we're willing to pay the cost of 35,000 lives in America annually for the freedom to drive.

Joel Webbon: 59:04

So what are we willing to pay for? The freedom of worshiping with the saints on the Lord's Day. The freedom of grandparents not dying alone in a nursing home. The freedom of your two-year-old not having to wear a mask. The freedom of the two-year-old not being completely hamstrung in terms of their speech development. The freedom of kids being able to go to school. The freedom of not having to lose your family business that's the third generation that being shut down forever. You're never going to get it back. The freedom of fathers to be able to financially provide for their children. We could go on and on and on and on. The freedom of protecting constitutional rights and the government not accruing more power that it'll never give up the crisis. They take the power, but then they keep the power.

Joel Webbon: 59:48

So civil freedom, economic freedom, freedom of worship, theological, spiritual freedom, with churches at every single level. The question is we're willing for 35,000 people to die every year to drive a minivan? What are we willing to do for the freedom of worshiping Yahweh, the freedom of feeding our families, the freedom of this, all this kind of stuff, and to say that we're not willing to pay any cost, not even one life? That is so dumb. A lot of pastors joined our politicians and saying exactly that we weren't thinking and it's because we've taken so much for granted. We have not had to apply our theology because we're still living off the accrued benefits of a prior christened. We've had everything handed to us on a silver platter all this freedom, all this prosperity, and we haven't had to lift a finger.

Joel Webbon: 1:00:45

Now, as we're into Aaron Rinn kind of thing, this negative world christened, the fumes are evaporating and now we're actually having to do some heavy lifting. Yeah, we're going to have to talk about biblical patriarchy. Yeah, we're going to have to talk about civil tyranny. We're going to have to talk about this, talk about that, and we're going to have to talk about it not just in theory but in practice. What does it look like? I think that's how pastors have failed. They've taken so much for granted we all have. And if we talk about theology at all, it's usually anemic and light and it's always in the realm of theory and never in the realm of practice. I don't know. That's my thought.

Eric Conn: 1:01:24

Yeah, one of the last questions I want to ask you, joel, is I think it's something you pointed out before, on Twitter at least. But what strikes me as interesting is, in the reform camp especially, we have all these heroes Martin Luther, john Calvin, but even people like the Puritans. The Puritans what people seem to forget is the Puritans went to jail for preaching applicational sermons. That's right. When we're fine, banner of truth or whatever, we're fine reading the books from a past era and saying, wow, we really laud these men, but if you try to apply the truth today, you get in trouble.

Eric Conn: 1:02:04

I was thinking about this recently reading William Goode on Ephesians 5. He begins that passage talking about the hierarchical rank of husbands and wives and he answers a question that he poses, which is why does the passage begin with wives submitting? There's this whole section where he's like well, because women don't like to listen to their husbands and they need to be told, and that's going to be a bedrock of a healthy family and household. Is a wife modeling for her children obedience, because she is obeying the authority God has put in the home. I was reading that and I was thinking here's a guy where we praise him as we praise the Puritans and we say, oh, these were heroes of the faith. But imagine preaching that sermon today. We would have more clips of Joel being cut up on the internet and causing problems.

Eric Conn: 1:02:52

So what do you think it is about reformed folks in particular that we would celebrate the thing that we won't tolerate from the pulpit today. Why is it that way?

Joel Webbon: 1:03:01

Well, that's just the people of God. That's what Israel did you build the tombs to the prophets, but your father's killed them. That's what people do. That's what the Jews did and that's what new Calvinist, young reformed wrestlers, quasi-reformed Calvinistic Baptist guys today do is they build the tombs to the prophets, but if they were alive in their time they would have killed them. And so I don't even know how to say it, but I think of Stephen Wolfe. I'll use that as an example. I disagree with Stephen Wolfe. I'm going to be doing a panel at Fight Left Feast with him and Doug Wilson on Christian nationalism and I'm excited to do it, and I like Stephen Wolfe. I think he's a dear brother in the faith. I do not think he's a racist. I think that slanderous charges. I disagree with him in the sense that I'm much more of the Ventilian, vantilian, presuppositional approach. I'm a general equity theonomist and I'm post-melt.

Eric Conn: 1:04:01

He's classical. Two kingdoms, yeah.

Joel Webbon: 1:04:02

Exactly. Yeah, he's not radical two kingdom, but he's a classical two kingdom. You know Thomas Aquinas, all millennial guy. But here's the deal, and I'm willing to admit this. I disagree with Stephen, but I'm even willing to admit. You read his 400 page book, which I did, and then you go and read John Calvin. John Calvin and Stephen Wolfe are two peas in a pod.

Joel Webbon: 1:04:27

Same argument, fundamentally Exactly the same argument, exactly Like 100% on the same. But I'm outside of Calvin and I have to admit that I'm, you know, and I think that Calvin got some things wrong. I'm more in the vein of, you know, again, vantil. I think Vantil is picking up on some things that some of the reformers actually were wrong about, that the reformers were still working from some of this Greco-Roman, you know, dualistic kind of framework that wasn't actually rooted in the scriptures alone. So, anyways, all that means is so.

Joel Webbon: 1:05:01

That's my position, but I'm able to say, in that regard, I'm outside of the reformers, outside of the reform tradition. Stephen's not Stephen is right in line with it. And my whole point is to say the same guys who love the Puritans but hate my preaching are the same guys who love the reformers but hate Stephen Wolfe. And there's another group of guys like that who built the tombs of the prophets but their forefathers are the ones who killed them. So I think it's yeah, I think it's tail is oldest time. You're always going to have those guys. They're called hypocrites.

Eric Conn: 1:05:36

Yeah, well, and I think, too, it's a good point. I think the other part is we just need more applicational preaching. It's probably going to take some generations of faithful men in the church who are courageous the Puritans in America who built the country. They fought those fights. They were largely hated by a great number of people, but in that sense they countered the cost and then they continued preaching and serving, and so I think that's a good model too for us that you're going to be hated. Christ said that we have great opportunity to be hated today and to continue to do that joyfully so that the church is built up. Yeah, amen, awesome, well, thanks, joel. I appreciate so much you coming on the show to talk about your new book and conference. Where's the best place Amazon for people to pick up your book, or you have other recommended place to pick it up?

Joel Webbon: 1:06:24

Yeah, I mean, they can go to rightresponseministriescom, and they'll be able to get it cheaper there. If they want to go on Amazon and get it for convenience, I get it. So they can go on Amazon. If they like the book, leave a review. If they don't like the book, then go and review Hardman Podcast and give it a one-star. Just take out your vicarious rage on it. And then, with the conference, though, also go to rightresponse not rightresponseministries, but go to rightresponseconferencecom, rightresponseconferencecom, and make sure to register for that. It's filling up really fast. People are excited, it's a great lineup and you are now on the roster as well. So you'll get to hang out with the Ogden guys, you'll get to hang out with me, you'll get to see some of the Moscow guys, and so it's just, it's going to be a good time, and so that's March 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Just so everybody knows, that's a Friday, saturday, sunday, march 1st, 2nd and 3rd of 2024. Rightresponseconferencecom.

Eric Conn: 1:07:18

Awesome. Well, I appreciate it. Joel will include links for those in the show notes, and thanks again for joining me for this episode of the podcast.

Joel Webbon: 1:07:25

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Eric.

Eric Conn: 1:07:27

Well, thanks again for listening to this episode of the Hardman Podcast, and special shout out to our Patreon supporters. If you're not yet a Patreon supporter, you can join today for as little as $5 a month, and that definitely helps keep this work going. We are glad to partner with you for content that builds a new Christendom and reclaims biblical masculinity. At the same time, you can check the show notes for the link to become a Patreon supporter of the Hardman Podcast today. Stay frosty, fight the good fight. Act like men.