In his book, The Silver Chair, C.S. Lewis tells an interesting story about a dilapidated school run by a woman trying to be a Head. She is a picture of what happens when women are wrongly put in places of rule, and how weaponized empathy controls an environment—and eats it alive. We'll talk about male headship, why it is necessary, and why women aren't made to rule in home, church, or society.
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In his book, The Silver Chair, C.S. Lewis tells an interesting story about a dilapidated school run by a woman trying to be a Head. She is a picture of what happens when women are wrongly put in places of rule, and how weaponized empathy controls an environment—and eats it alive. We'll talk about male headship, why it is necessary, and why women aren't made to rule in home, church, or society.
Sign up for the New Christendom Press Conference in June 2024.
Join the Patreon exclusive membership.
10 Ways to Make Money with Your MAXX-D Trailer.
Alpine Gold Exchange Website: alpinegoldogden.com
Set Up a Meeting: https://calendly.com/alpinegold/alpine-gold-consultation
Talk to Joe Garrisi about managing your wealth with Backwards Planning Financial.
Sign up for Barbell Logic.
Follow Ekklesia Design on social media or visit www.ekklesiadesign.com today to learn more.
Visit https://premierbodyarmor.com/hardmen and use promo code HARDMEN for 10% off your order. Got questions? Reach out to customer service or send their President an email directly at alex@premierbodyarmor.com and speak to him yourself.
Buy your beef or pork box today from Salt and Strings Butchery. Use code "HMP" to get $20 off your next order.
Contact Private Family Banking Partner at banking@privatefamilybanking.com to set up a free private consultation and get started building wealth now and unto future generations. "For a free copy of a new book "Protect Your Money Now! How to Build Multi-Generational Wealth Outside of Wall Street and Avoid the Coming Banking Meltdown" by Private Family Banking Partner, Chuck DeLadurantey, go to www.protectyourmoneynow.net
This episode of the Hardman Podcast is brought to you by Joe Garrisi with Backwards Planning. Financial by Alpine Gold, by Max D Trailers by Salton Strings, Butchery, Private Family, Banking, Premier Body, Armor and Ecclesia Design. Welcome to this episode of the Hardman Podcast. I'm your host, Derek Kahn, and joined today by the one, the only bearded bald Norseman, Dan Burkholder.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me. There is another, dan Burkholder, who is actually more famous. He's a photographer, really yeah, but he spells his name B-U-R-K. Is he bald? I don't know. I haven't seen a picture.
Speaker 1:It's not self-portrait, so You're the only Dan Burkholder that I care about. Dan Dan, we're going to jump into this episode in just a minute. We're going to be talking about CS Lewis and Narnia and some of his views, which are very popular today, on male headship. Oh, they're popular. Oh, did I say popular? I meant people hate them, in fact. We'll get into it in just a minute, but I had posted something about CS Lewis and headship from. This is from the silver chair, so quotes from the book. We'll get into them. But it was interesting because several people in the comments said I have been a lifelong.
Speaker 2:CS Lewis fan and you have forever ruined that for me.
Speaker 1:Well, it sounds like you're doing favors, mean, if, yeah, if you're a raging feminist, get out. That's all I gotta say.
Speaker 2:You're not allowed to be a cs lewis fan no, I mean, you didn't even have to interpret it, no, just read it it was basically just reading it, uh.
Speaker 1:Before we get into that, though, dan, you had a rousing and I'm talking rousing uh appearance on. It's not yet up, but it's going to be on Instagram reels. It's going to be on Twitter on X a rousing and I mean rousing appeal for people to come to the conference. Is there any way I know I'm putting you on the spot Is there any way I can get you to recreate it?
Speaker 2:Recreate it, yeah. So, uh, new Christian impresses having a conference June 6th through the 8th. Come or don't come, I don't care, but if you are there I'll see you then, or I won't, but you should come. But you should come. Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 1:That's pretty much it. I mean spot on. For people who don't know, dan is our resident Ron Swanson.
Speaker 2:A higher compliment has never been given to me.
Speaker 1:Actually, I think I have given you a higher compliment because I compared you to Puddleglum.
Speaker 2:And Samwise, gamgee and Samwise. I mean, yeah, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:High country. Nobody ever compares me to characters in well, actually, that's not true. Cs Lewis maybe Brian has been calling me Reepicheep lately. I mean, I accept the honor. Yes, I accept the honor. So we definitely encourage people to sign up for the conference. Dan, this year we have had a massive turnout. Last year we had, I don't know, 150 people who came to our conference. This year we are. I think we looked at numbers today we're well over 600, I think it's six, 50.
Speaker 1:One of the things I want to encourage people to attend is the concert which I keep calling a conference, but a concert with Brian survey. We are going to attempt something pretty bold and audacious here. We are going to live record this sucker. We've got a professional sound guy coming and we hope to have a musical production of sorts. Be that an album of Brian's that's produced live. We'll also, lord willing, have included in that some Psalm singing, him singing. So be there. Really, I think what I'm saying is, if you come and you're part of this live album, then you're basically famous, yes, so you want basically famous, yes.
Speaker 1:So you want to be on it, so get a ticket for Brian's concert. But the other thing, dan, we are having, which I think is really cool, is a VIP business mixer. We've got a number of people who are going to be there, including sponsors for this show. We're going to have the guys from max d who are going to be there, we are going to have mr joe garrisy. There's going to be a lot of people. Um and so for people thinking like, should I go to the business mixer, what kind of person should sign up for our vip business mixer?
Speaker 2:and uh, yeah, give me the uh, well, yeah, really the pitch on it really, if you're a guy that values networking opportunities, especially for economic benefit and for relationships with like-minded men that lead businesses and have a lot of responsibilities on their shoulders I mean this is a great opportunity. There's really very few opportunities like this that are going to exist in North America to where you have the opportunity to cultivate relationships with men that have similar roles, responsibilities and are like-minded in building the new Christendom, specifically in their companies and in their corners of the world. So that's where I think the greatest benefit is, you know. So if you're if you're a business owner or you're a guy that that values networking, that's. That's where I'd go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, and I think this year, much bigger number of attendance, so there's going to be even better opportunity. Last year we had a lot of businesses and people connect who are doing. I mean, some of the business deals that came out of this were like in the tens to hundreds of millions of dollars for a lot of people. So I think those connection points are really good. And then also just attending the conference. Of course, the VIP mixer is a separate ticket, but attending the conference we are going to have so many people here.
Speaker 1:We've got the speakers, obviously, so we've got Pastor Brian, dr Joe Rigney, dr Stephen Wolf, we've got Joel Webben, we've got J Chase Davis there's going to be that but there's also just a host of people from CJ Engel to Andrew Isker I mean guys that we follow on Twitter. This is a great opportunity to connect with what you know. It can feel like we're a little bit of a small ghetto in the midst of gay globalist multiculturalism in a lot of America, but I think the value of connecting with a lot of those guys and being encouraged, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:There's going to be also just the the people that are behind the scenes, that are doing the work, that are not Twitter famous or podcast famous, that you all have the opportunity to be encouraged by and to network with will be will be great.
Speaker 2:You know, you'd mentioned Max D earlier, and I just had a phone call with them and they even said they've got job openings, and so one of the things that they're hoping to do is at their booth at the conference is to try to recruit good men to do the work to help them build their very, very successful trailer company, and so there's many opportunities there other than just going to a really good conference and listening to really good speakers. I think that's probably the understated but most valuable part of any conference is the opportunity to network with like-minded individuals, especially because of the cultural moment and the temperature right now, and so these guys are like-minded and they think the same things and they eat at the same trough and are made of the same stuff, and so I think that's probably the most valuable aspect of the conference.
Speaker 1:Yeah, certainly one of my favorite things at the last conference for us recently, going to Joel Webbins conference, getting to have FaceTime with people yeah, I think it's just tremendous. So definitely encourage you guys to check that out, if you have not already bought a ticket. Of course, if you're a Patreon member, there is some special pricing, so sign up today. You can get the link in Patreon for a special discount. Would encourage you guys to meet us June 6th through 8th in Ogden, utah, utah, dan. What I want to do now is jump into this episode.
Speaker 1:I've been thinking for the last five minutes of my life about patriarchy if you can believe that or not, but yeah, a couple things here. So I was preparing for a talk at Right Response Ministries and I found this talk from Russell Moore from, I think, 2008. And he was talking all about how the Christian world up until about five minutes ago was all patriarchal and focused on male headship. One of the things that he said was that in this paper was that CS Lewis defended headship in mere Christianity as one of the central tenets of the Christian faith and Christian worldview. So this kind of got me down, this CS Lewis train of thought, at least on headship.
Speaker 1:So that's kind of stepping stone number one. Stepping stone number two was my friends were relentlessly mocking me, and my friends were Dan Burkholder was relentlessly mocking me because, ok, so I had not fully read the chronicles of narnia. This is like confession time I now, just to be fair. I had probably listened to great portions of it, like in the car where the kids are listening or whatever, and I'm like zoning out. There were points reading through the series where I was like, oh yeah, I'm pretty sure I've heard this before but it was not good.
Speaker 1:So this last week spring break, I started, just started reading through them right and was kind of blown away. Life-changing experience. Wow, really, it really was. Yeah, um, and I want to talk to you just generally.
Speaker 1:First of all, we'll get into the headship stuff in just a moment and where I think it shows up. But I think what really changed my life through CS Lewis, it's the way he's able to write. He has this saying elsewhere where kind of the the point of good fiction is to get past the watchful dragons of the heart. And there's something about when you're sitting in a sermon or you're in theology class and you're like, okay, I know what's going on here. But CS Lewis gets past all those defenses into your heart in a way that I almost wanted to call it sort of like quote, unquote, magical. Like he's able to write in such a way where, like Aslan will scold one of the children and you yourself feel as though you're being scolded.
Speaker 1:And there were times where aslan will correct a child, especially like susan or edmund or you know, like in the later novels, you know caspian or something like that. He's correcting lucy about her vanity, I think in the dawn treader while she looks in the mirror, and I remember thinking like I would just start crying because I it's like I'm being corrected. Yeah, these stories, which are quote unquote child's tales, are incredibly powerful. So that's sort of my like you know 20 second spiel about why, initially, why it was impactful. But I know that you're a big fiction guy and you're a big CS Lewis guy and a big Narnia guy. What is it about these stories that makes them so powerful, even, especially, for adults?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the adult part, I think, is really important. Cs Lewis talks about this in his book or his his, I don't know what you'd call it. It's not really a book, but like a pamphlet or whatever. It's called an experiment in criticism and he actually talks about it's called in an experiment in criticism and he actually talks about an essay. It's an essay, yeah, yeah, an essay. He talks about being childlike and how um we need to recapture being childish, and usually when the word childish is used, it's denigrating you think about immaturity, immaturity, yeah, yeah, yeah, throwing a his whatever, being selfish, like all the number of times my kids will ask the question but why?
Speaker 2:why, you know what's this, what's that, how does that work? Uh, boundless curiosity, um, and wonder at the world that got created. And there are many, many things that he talks about. I haven't read it in years, so if I had been more familiar I could give you more. But the idea that CS Lewis values childishness so highly comes out in the books in one way in particular that I can't remember where I heard it from.
Speaker 2:But you have a lot of these children's stories, and the way that they make the children the protagonists is by making the adults dumb. They have to make the adults seem like big dopes in order for the children to actually be the heroes. They're the heroes, you know, and in Narnia that's actually not the case. He elevates children by making them believable and by helping you to recapture some of the best virtues of being a child, and so I think that's why it's so powerfully relative for adults is because there's something smoldering in every one of us that is rekindled when we read those stories, because you can see yourself as these children, and they don't have to.
Speaker 2:He, he doesn't amplify some of the boneheaded immaturities of children to make it to to be distracting from the story. There are some of those things, but they're all very relatable and I think that's really helpful. So, in in recapturing that childlike wonder for the world and for creation, also through his world building and the things that he emphasizes about Narnia, it was like, I think Tolkien, uh, somebody said like you can smell the earth of middle earth, like you can smell it, it's, it's very real. Uh, with Narnia, there's something in one's heart that just longs to be there. I want to be there.
Speaker 2:Middle earth is familiar. I don't mean to to like, compare them as like, but but I think there is something helpful there. Middle earth is relatable and there is wonder there and there's magic, but it's very cold and it's brutal and it's beautiful, but but there's something about Narnia that is like. This is like a dreamlike place that I would just long to be.
Speaker 1:But it it somehow works, and this is what I mean, it somehow works on the affections of your heart. So I found myself, like you know, I was talking to my wife about it and she was, like I seem like really moved by this story. This might've been after Caspian. She said what are you thinking? And I, just like what came out in the moment, I was like I want to touch Aslan's mane. Yeah, like I want to have one of these conversations and really, you know, you have Aslan, who's the picture of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah and all that. I get that Like this Christic figure, all that. But Lewis of the lion of the tribe of judah and all that, I get that like this christic figure, all that, um, but lewis is able to, he's able to tell the story in such a way where, like, you want to be in narnia, you want to in.
Speaker 1:Um, you know michael ward in his book, uh, this is planet narnia. Uh, he talks about, he's going through like how the books of narnia are a reflection of the seven planetary systems in the medieval mind. But as he's going through that, he said what Lewis is trying to do is he's trying to transport you into an environment, not where you contemplate it, but where you enjoy it, interesting, and so, as you're going through that, you're thinking, yeah, there's something weird happening. I don't even understand how it's working on my emotions, but it is definitely impacting me. And, of course, one of the major themes that Michael Ward talks about is central in all of Lewis's medieval mind was Jupiter, and Jupiter is the planet of joviality and kingship and this is why the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, which is really the jovial book, is filled with mirth and winter turning into spring. This is what good kings do. And there's this interesting line that Michael Ward says I think he's quoting an early, early Lewis essay but he said our world is fundamentally Saturn and Saturn is the planet of sadness and grief and death. He said it's the only framework which people know and the thing that needs to be reintroduced is the jovial King, because it's like our world. You know he fought in world war one think about the time period he was living in and he said nobody knows anything of joviality and kingship and gladness and and royalty. So that definitely comes across, uh, in in the books and I think makes it something that you definitely want to be a part of.
Speaker 1:It's interesting because one of the quotes that I was looking at on headship which comes from lewis, this one is, I have to think about, uh, not sure the exact source. I think this was an essay that he actually wrote about women ministers, whether or not they should be permitted to be ministers in the Anglican church. Okay, and he said absolutely not. But this is one of the quotes. He said I do not believe God created an egalitarian world.
Speaker 1:I believe the authority of parent over child, husband over wife, learned over simple, to have been as much a part of the original plan as the authority of man over beast. I believe that if we had not fallen, patriarchal monarchy would be the sole lawful form of government. And that's the end of the quote, by the way. But you read that and you're like, I think, the average person in America. You know we're imbibed in like liberal secular democracy, quote, unquote this democratic system. And yet when you read Narnia, lewis is undoubtedly a royalist, a monarchist. It's the king, and I think he's actually right here, by the way, about patriarchal monarchy being the ideal. When you get to heaven, lewis was, you know, he would say something like when you get to heaven, there's not going to be a democracy. There's going to be kingship, and you're going to rejoice in it and that's it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as you've been talking, I've been thinking about the line in the witch in the wardrobe and that's been one of the books where I'm like, eh, it's fine, it's fine, but there are some really interesting themes there that I hadn't really considered as deeply profound. But when you're talking about monarchy and Lewis's view of the world, you do see the thawing of the deep winter without Christmas. Which funny, funny.
Speaker 1:There is no.
Speaker 2:King, there's no King. Uh. And as soon as the Kings you know are are coming closer to care paravel, all of a sudden the snow starts to melt and the, the flowers start to bloom and there is joy and the golden age of Narnia comes and the golden age of Narnia comes, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:But that picture of like, as the King arrives, things get better until there's a time of peace and uh, and that's a really interesting theme. And so you can see in Lewis's mind what would change the world. Well, it seems like a righteous King would definitely change the world in his mind, but instead what we have is winter without Christmas.
Speaker 1:Ie democracy.
Speaker 2:Yes, rest my case. Egalitarian democracy.
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Speaker 1:You know, democracy is very egalitarian, like you, look at our society and they're like well, every man, woman and child and immigrant and everyone else should have equal vote. And you know, my question would be what does it produce? And I think what Lewis shows you. He doesn't give you an argument, but the narrative is the argument, and what you find yourself longing for is wise Kings and good Kings and the glory of a King's reign. So that's, I think, really helpful. Um, I do want to jump into what I wrote on Twitter about headship, and this comes from, uh, as I said before, the silver chair. This is at the end, uh, but this is what I wrote. I said CS Lewis rightly recognized that women, by their nature, were not made for fighting battles or for being in roles of headship. That's why Susan and Lucy weren't allowed to fight at the front lines. You remember, father Christmas comes. This was, by the way, tolkien was so upset with Lewis that he included father Christmas.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Like what is this hodgepodge of?
Speaker 2:Well, it's funny because before I had kids, brian and I were talking about the line in the witcher wardrobe and I said I just don't like santa claus and brian's like are you kidding me? Santa's like one of the best parts. Now that I have kids and I read it again, I'm like tearing up because father christmas is there isn't that crazy.
Speaker 1:That's great, it's great. So father, christmas comes, he gets them all gifts. Peter gets a sword, edmund, I think it's a sword too. I think they get sword and shield. Of course, peter's sword is better.
Speaker 2:Well, and edmund had betrayed them, so he wasn't there oh, edmund's not there at that point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he gets his later, that's right. So peter gets his sword. He's going to be the high king. Uh, lucy gets a little healing potion thing and then a dagger, and then susan gets the bow. The bow. And the girls are like, yeah, but we want to fight. And aslan says this quote battles are ugly when women fight. And cs lewis was right. So I go on. At the end of the silver chair, lewis has the head and it's interesting, he keeps capitalizing head H, e, a, d head. He was talking about headmaster of a school, but it's the way he does it.
Speaker 2:It also ties into that hideous strength which we'll get into.
Speaker 1:So he says at the end of this, or I say at the end of the silver chair, lewis has the head of Eustace and Jill's school portrayed by a woman, as of Eustace and Jill's school portrayed by a woman. As the school bullies find Aslan and Caspian returning Jill and Eustace to their world, they cry out murder, fascists, lions. It isn't fair. This is precisely the sort of thing a woman pretending to be a head would be duped by. Rather than responding in a just fashion. That is righteous justice. She is easily played by the empathy card of the bullies who say it isn't there.
Speaker 1:Lewis writes of this supposed head. Quote this is the end of the silver chair. She had hysterics and went back to the house and began ringing up the police with stories about a lion escaped from the circus and escaped convicts who broke down walls and carried drawn swords. When the police arrived and found no lion, no broken wall and no convicts who broke down walls and carried drawn swords. When the police arrived and found no lion, no broken wall and no convicts and the head behaving like a lunatic, there was an inquiry into the whole thing. After that, the head's friends saw that the head was no use as a head. So they got her made into an inspector to interfere with other heads, and when they found she wasn't much good even at that, they got her into parliament where she lived happily ever after. End quote, and this is my final comment on it that I wrote on Twitter An organization or society run by women pretending to be heads is going to operate on the impulse of empathy, not justice, and will therefore devolve into just this sort of lunacy.
Speaker 1:So, dan, what? I want to ask you a bunch about this, because there's a lot in here. Uh, but one of the things that's interesting in michael ward's planetary evaluation, uh, the silver chair is the moon, and the moon, of course, in medieval thought, is lunacy, or, you know, it's tied to going mad. Now, I find this so fascinating that we think words like lunatic, luna, l U, n, a, you know, for moon, yep, uh, so that's interesting. Uh, but even Eugene Peterson in the um the Psalm I have to look this up the Lord is my keeper, you know, he keeps me from the sun by day and the moon by night. Uh, the word for the moon by night, there is actually a reference to being moonstruck, which was an ancient way of talking about going crazy. So the moon is associated with craziness, of course Lewis here is talking about. He uses the word lunatic.
Speaker 2:It's also a theme in Lonesome Dove, by the way, which you've talked about on this episode around the season, which is really interesting.
Speaker 1:So, but but it's interesting the the connection with this book and the moon. Of course the children are underground in this world of madness and a maddening enchantment from the I don't know venom snake witch in the underworld. But that's a good picture of madness. You can't see the sun, so you go mad, yeah, so the darkness, all those themes are here. But I think it's interesting the way that Lewis describes a woman trying to be a head, and so I want to get your take on that. Why do you think he wrote this very comical, you know, headmistress, but he calls her a head, yeah, and then he talks about how basically terrible she was as a head.
Speaker 2:Well, right In the story, early on, if you recall, at the beginning of the book, jill and Eustace are at the school and it's horrible, yep, and it's, it's, it's an absolutely horrible place.
Speaker 1:And Lewis says in the beginning too, he's like it was horrible.
Speaker 2:And, by the way, it was run by a woman. Yeah, well, yeah, and you know what's really funny about that?
Speaker 1:is that it was mixed right, it was boys and girls together.
Speaker 2:Lewis did not like that. He didn't like that and, honestly, we're not the biggest fans either, but I digress. Uh, so you have this essentially horrible atmosphere that's not being managed well, uh and and so, uh, lewis mentions empathy, or you mentioned empathy, but the first thing that I think is really funny is where he responds. You know, she responds to the lion and and to Jill and Eustace coming back and Caspian, and it says that she had hysterics. Yes, she had hysterics, which I mean it would make sense for an emotional creature to be hysterical when there is a large lion and men with drawn swords on your schoolyard. But one of the things that you'll notice. How much trouble do we want to get in?
Speaker 1:A lot, ok so the main reason I brought you on is because the last time that we really had trouble it was because of dan, but you got blamed for it, and ally bestucky, but I got in trouble and I'm here for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I gotta, can I? Can I inject one thing? Yeah, one of my favorite parts of the dawn treader is that you get a good look at reepa cheap, which was like, like I felt like my avatar. It was just my soul animal, if you will. There's this part at the end, when they're sailing towards the sun and the waters are clear and they see the people underneath and like the the basically mermaid people, whatever the King comes up with his Trident and he's shaking at them like he once wore. So Reepicheep jumps in because he thinks he's been challenged to fight. Yeah, because he thinks he's been challenged to fight, yeah, and he jumps in the water and is like up, let's go to war, let's go. And they have to grab him. They're like Reepicheep, my guy.
Speaker 1:One other, okay, one other Reepicheep story. I said only one interjection. But they're on the beach. Eustace has turned into a dragon. This is Dawn Treader. Yeah, that's right, they, they're on the beach, he's turned into a dragon and they, they think they're going to have to fight. They don't know, it's useless, they think they're going to have to fight the dragon and Caspians. He's like trying to figure out what to do Right, and Reepercheap says your majesty, if I might, and he's immediately he snaps back. He's like no Reepercheap you may into single combat, I know what you're gonna ask.
Speaker 2:And I was like reeper chief is my guy. Yeah, so back now. Well, no, I think that's a really good picture because, uh, lewis really really does this throughout the story yeah, with caspian and even even being how, having to be reminded of his duties as a king, why he can't go into the to the eastlands is that right, eastlands? Yeah. And with um reepicheep and his quest for honor and and to be valiant in battle and and to be loyal to to the king and to his people. Uh, there are themes like that for masculinity, and then he also has positive femininity, but you have I want to interject one thing, because I find this so funny.
Speaker 1:The word lunatic which Lewis uses is very interesting, well chosen, but so is the word, as you mentioned, hysterics. When you said the word out loud, I thought of something. Have you ever heard the word hysterectomy? Yes, so the Latin root? Well, actually it's from the Greek hysteria, which means womb uterus, or hysteria, as we would think about it, of going mad.
Speaker 1:I think Lewis knew what he was doing. Like when you put a woman in the head. See, the thing is, when I like we think about our wives. When they're in their proper, god-ordained role as mother and keeper of the home, they're not hysterical, no. But when you try to put her in a, a head role, you need to make decisions for the family, you need to be the breadwinner for the family, you need to go go to college and have a career so that you can lead your family. When you put her, who has a womb, in that condition, that's when you see hysterical women. I think it's interesting that Lewis ties that together. Really, tell me more. Tell me more. That's what I got. That's what I got on that one.
Speaker 2:I keep interrupting you no, we all experience this, though. We have experienced this. If you've worked in any W2 job anywhere and had a female boss, you can relate to this. There's a reason that a matriarchal type of tyrannical mother-in-law, or even mother, has the sort of reputation that they have. If you, you know, the hysterics takes on a different more of the snake-like you know, more of the snake-like queen lady, where, if you misstep or say the wrong thing, you will have your head bitten off.
Speaker 2:The emotions of a woman under pressure in a role that she's not meant to operate in, will result in emotional out outburst and hysterics. It's the same thing, though, if a man is subjugated in a role that he's not meant to be in, will cause him to be effeminate, and so I think back to our monarchy and our democracy conversation. You have men that, essentially, are on the same plane, in an egalitarian plane, as women, that are ruled by women many times. What is that? What is the fruit that you should expect? Well, it's not kingly men that will fight for their king and country, but they will be effeminate because they're led by hysterics.
Speaker 1:That's insane. So so this is interesting. I look this up in a couple places and when you look at again the root words Hysteria, which means womb or uterus, why was it the root word for hysteria or craziness? It's funny, cause you read the entries on this and they're like well cause, the Greeks were really dumb, blah, blah, blah, blah. And this is what it said.
Speaker 1:Historically, it was believed that hysteria, particularly in women, was caused by disturbances and radical emotions associated with the uterus in a woman's time of month. They're writing this like how dumb they were. Okay, the greeks believe that the greeks belief led to the use of the term hysteria to describe a state of uncontrolled emotion or behavior which is most commonly found in women during certain parts of their menstrual cycle. Every man on earth and every woman on earth who's honest with herself knows that that is true, right? Yeah, this conversation always comes up in leadership with, like us politics, because I remember in my lifetime early on it's like would you want a woman who menstruates pushing the nuclear button? And like everybody was like yeah, that's probably a bad idea.
Speaker 2:Now we pretend like that's not reality. Yeah, that's not.
Speaker 1:That's not something you can notice, right but there is a difference in the sexes. This is why the woman will do so poorly in a leadership role is because she's got those emotional responses. And when you look at them from a mothering perspective, it actually makes sense, because the uterus is for what?
Speaker 2:Making children, growing children yeah.
Speaker 1:That's right. Children, yeah, that's right. And when a woman has to fight, as Lewis said, things get ugly, because if she's fighting, it means she's defending herself or, more likely, her children. She's going to go full mama bear.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And she has to.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, and absolutely. And that's not to denigrate women, it's. It's that the glory of women are not to be bad men. Right, they're not meant to be men like. They're just smaller, framed and weaker versions of men.
Speaker 1:Well, and this is the interesting thing with Lewis, because when you look at the line, the witch in the wardrobe, lucy and Susan have this great relationship with Aslan. I mean a a favored role, I would even say. In many ways, they're the ones who go with him to the stone table, they're the ones who have these long, deep conversations with him. Um, it reminds you of the women at Jesus's tomb. They are not denigrated as people, but Lewis doesn't do the modern, really retarded modern thing where he says, therefore they should rule yeah, or Susan ends up winning the battle.
Speaker 1:She comes, comes as, like the the deus ex machina, you know and and wins the battle no, and even in, uh say, like in caspian susan's in that one, but she's painted mostly, as you know, their journey to go find caspian at at the how. She's painted mostly in a negative light, particularly because she's growing up and her number one sin in that book is nagging and Lewis is not merciful with her on that front, nor is Aslan. So it's really interesting to me Like he understood the dynamics of sexual nature.
Speaker 2:You know I don't know if you know this, but the context in which the motivation that Lewis wrote these books was for his I would think it was niece and nephew- yeah.
Speaker 2:And so if you, if you take yourself away from our current culture and the environment, everything like that, what's politically correct and all of that, if you were to write a book for your children or for your niece and nephew and you wanted to highlight certain temptations for the particular ways in which both boys and girls and men and women will be tempted to sin, those are the sorts of things that that Lewis writes, and so it's going to be hysterics, it's going to be nagging, it's going to be vanity. You know all of these feminine sins, but the same thing can be seen as men. All of these feminine sins, but the same thing can be seen as men. Cowardice, betrayal, a lack of honor, shrinking back. You know all of these things are greed.
Speaker 2:Those sorts of themes are prevalent in the male characters as well, and so I think it's I just think it's a really good barometer as to the reading something that was written before our current time. This is why it's so important to read old books. I know it's not that old, you know it's only what? 70 years old at this point.
Speaker 2:Yeah but it's a lot's changed, it's pre-sexual revolution?
Speaker 1:Yes, and obviously Lewis wrote essays on this, so they were dealing with the early phases of like you know, should women be priests? And stuff like that. But it's interesting because most of the comments on here are like I've read Lewis all my life on Twitter in response to me I've read Lewis all my life. Unfortunately, he was a total misogynist and you just have to reject that part of him. Blah, blah, blah and. But the thing is, this is the chronological snobbery, but it's like or maybe he was right. Does anybody ever stop and ask that question? Dan, one of the things that I think is really interesting. Let's go back to the school bullies for a minute. The school bullies they find Aslan and Caspian returning, jill and Eustace and they just start crying out like the woke mobs today Murder, fascist, racist, you know, bigot. And I love he puts at the end he says it isn't fair. So there's a misplaced call for some sort of justice. But it's interesting to me that women are particularly prone to this sort of manipulation.
Speaker 2:Why do you think that is?
Speaker 1:That's a good question. I think that women are, again, very emotionally driven. They're, by nature, nurturers. Men are much better at drawing hard lines defending the perimeter. I think that women this is kind of what Joe Rigney talks about with the sins of empathy Wherever you have like a, the amount of female heads goes up like women leading in a society, church or family.
Speaker 1:The more that happens, the more the empathy card will rule the day, which it just means like crazy emotions are going to run the show. And the thing is, if the, if the ticket to leadership is being crazy emotionally, women will always have the advantage, because the thing is, any honest woman will will tell you this. She knows how to control a home with her emotions. Now, in a good home, she can be a great help and support and life giver to her husband and her children through things like. I'm always blown away by this A woman who smiles at her children and her husband it's like intoxicating.
Speaker 1:Just smile at your people, yeah, and speak sweetly to them. It's amazing what you can do. On the other hand, a woman who's near her cycle or a woman who's upset about what's going on, she is going to throw an absolute fit and people will go into hiding in that home. Well, think about it. It's like you go into a workplace. How many female bosses have you had where you're just like, or men acting like women where you just go? This is a passive, aggressive, nasty, emotional, hysterical environment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's definitely the place where I have the CYA folder so that I, you know, cover your assets folder so that you because eventually it's going to explode at some point yeah, so you have to be able to capture all of the passive, aggressive notes and emails and emotional outbursts and things like that. So I can relate, but not here.
Speaker 1:But yeah, but it's interesting to Dan. You think about this, like think about how can we, weaponized in a, in a feminine society and in a female dominated society like our own, murder fascist lions? It isn't fair. Think about today what's going on with Christian nationalism. All you got to do is call somebody a fascist or a Nazi or a racist, or the word now is kinest. All you got to do is that and it's all of a sudden like I can't even responsibly, I can't even have a conversation with you because you're subhuman. Why? Because somebody called me a name or called this other person a name, or you referenced the Jews or something like that. So now you're off limits.
Speaker 1:But this is the sort of manipulation that will tend to happen and again, I think it's particularly tied to the female bearing gone wrong when it's put in a place of headship. I think that's typically where you're going to see this sort of thing. I also think it's interesting. I want to see if you think this is true. I always found working in a corporate bureaucracy to be particularly it's a particularly feminine environment in the sense, like everything that's bad about. You know what we're talking about, the hysterics, all that stuff. It's like everything goes wrong when you put women all throughout that workplace and then in charge of the positions in the workplace. I always, again, I always found it to be a very passive, aggressive, nasty environment. I did not enjoy corporate America because men didn't act like men. They acted like gossipy, catty, nasty, like the worst kind of women.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think it's amplified or caused in part because of the dreaded human resources department that is the epitome of what I'm talking about well, you have essentially an organization or a department that is a gatekeeper for the entire business. It's basically corporate entity. So they're the ones looking at resumes, they're the ones doing the, the you know so gatekeeping in, and then, once people are in, where are you supposed to go with issues? You're supposed to go to the caddy ladies in hr well, think about this.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking of like five or six companies I've worked for who, by the way, are notorious gossips.
Speaker 2:So right of confidentiality. But I'm talking like.
Speaker 1:In most of the cases that I've dealt with hr departments, it's either like an old woman or a gay dude and you're like what are those people act like you know, and they were usually like it was weird, cause it would be like somebody who is like on the surface, like sweetie, like the overly Southern sweetie type thing or whatever, but then like maliciously ripping your heart out or something like oh, by the way, like ripping your heart out or something like, oh, by the way, like we're just going to have to have security escort you out with the folder, and I'm like you think I want any of the garbage from this building. This was an instance when I actually took another job and they were negotiating back and forth and the minute I said, no, thank you for the offer, but you know I am going to accept this other offer. Ok, great, well, security will be right up. I was like two weeks, you're not gonna give me. No, we don't want you to steal any more intellectual property I was just like this is the slimiest.
Speaker 1:Like you can't even have like man-to-man type conversations, yeah, you can't even be treated like an adult. Tucker carlson said this recently about hr. You know he was talking about how just vile it is and it's tied to the. How did the dei stuff get into corporations through? About hr, you know he was talking about how just vile it is and it's tied to the. How did the dei stuff get into corporations through the hr department? All the racial? You know all that stuff it's through hr. But it's like I. You know he said he's like I couldn't even go to an employee and be like hey, do you have a problem with me? No, no, no, no, you got to go through hr. There's going to be a process. You have have to gossip. You have to gossip. They're encouraging gossip.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting is so? My wife, uh, back when we were right before we got married and right afterwards she was working for this large, um fortune 500 recruiting company. So they hired everyone from doctors and C-suite kind of guys to to like hospital staff and, um, you know, telemarketing people, so everybody right. And so she worked with a lot of these HR recruiters, you know, for different companies and what's really interesting, so this, this was, uh, 10 years plus ago.
Speaker 2:Uh, she said she had talked with one of her, uh, her former coworkers and just to get a temperature of what's going on there. And she, she got off the phone and she told me, like I am so glad that I got out of there because I would have had to have been fired. There's no way I could have done this because of all of the different DEI stuff, that's, all the gay and woke stuff that's getting jammed down everybody's throat. And she, she said I, there's no way I would have been able to, uh, to keep my job there without getting fired. Um, and, and so it's.
Speaker 2:It is really interesting that, with the gatekeeping that those are the people that they're also attracting is that there's the mandatory hiring of sexually confused people of uh, different races and uh of different religious backgrounds. Uh, in in all for the sake of multiculturalism. And so your corporations, the, the people that are being financially benefited are the people that are actually destroying the moral fabric of the United States, and so I don't know, take that for what it's worth. Those are the people, by the way, that have jobs and that vote.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, it's so interesting too. And then, like, this has been a hard one for a lot of people. I think you know people will listen to this, but you know feedback from right response conference. I spoke on patriarchy. It was good but it is hard because people were like I appreciate you're talking on patriarchy, but it's been hard for my me to digest. I've never heard a sermon on that or a sermon on you know, women shouldn't be ruling in society. That it's foreign. It's the first time that you know they're hearing in the Bible that sort of thing. Yeah, completely.
Speaker 1:Guys like CS Lewis up until pre 1960, especially this was just common fare to read any of the Puritans. If one of the publishers hasn't, you know, excised the good portions from them, you'll find that that's all in there. But what's interesting to me, dan, is OK. Okay, here's what happens when I start talking about these things. Uh, I gave my patriarchy talk you can find on youtube which should probably link to it. Um, at right response. But I had some pastor friends that I went to seminary with and they were like this is the good thing about guys who preach expositionally, by the way. They listened to it and they were like you know I was listening to it and I was having a hard time. But then I started looking at the passages and I'm like I think he might be onto something here like you invented it, right, but but they're.
Speaker 1:This is what I love.
Speaker 2:They're good bereans and they're gonna go read the text, right which is what I want people to do.
Speaker 1:Don't take my word for it. Go go, you know, read zach garris masculine christianity, he'll, he'll show you. So that's, that's really helpful. But it was really interesting because one of my pastor friends said to me he goes, you know, I'm I'm listening to you talk about this and, like, I think you're right. Like, if, like, women are made to be in the home, that's her. She's the oikos despot is what Paul calls her. She's to serve in the home. She's not to be outward facing in the civil magistrate sphere, she's not to be, even historically she. That's why she wasn't voting. It was actually a protection to women. You focus on the home.
Speaker 2:I'll take care of this, babe like we curse the society if she rules yeah, curse the society.
Speaker 1:We find that all throughout the, the scriptures, um. But he said to me he goes. If all that's true, I'm not sure women should vote. So here's where the rubber, I think, hits the road for people is you go, but wait a minute. That's crazy, isn't it? Because we've been raised on a steady diet, you can drive through Salt Lake and you find all these signs. Like Mormons were some of the first to have women voting in the, you know the 19th amendment, isn't that like we grew up with? Like that's a birthright?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and my city council. I think there's eight seats and only two are men.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's disturbing Yep.
Speaker 1:So I guess you know, as people start making the connection points, there's a potential that they go wow, you guys are really weird.
Speaker 2:But historically, would this have been seen as weird that women are voting yes? Absolutely, it would be weird.
Speaker 3:We would be, the oddballs.
Speaker 2:But the thing is that with our feminist mind, our feminist hive mind, they would say well, yeah, that's because this is the first time in history that women have not been repressed, correct, they've not been subjugated because of birth control and abortion rights, sexual rights, reproductive rights, so they could actually escape the bondages of the home, essentially transcending their created purpose to a higher plane which is very transhumanist and absolute garbage Right. But one of the I mean sexual revolution. Aside all of that one, what does the scripture say about women? You just mentioned some things. You know that women are a curse, they're Oikos despot, and that also they're more easily deceived. I think that's something that people try to explain away.
Speaker 1:Do you think that, if that's true, is a woman in the workplace more easily deceived?
Speaker 2:Yes, she's a woman.
Speaker 1:What about a woman in politics? Yes, because what you're saying is in her nature, in her yes, because so she takes saying is in her nature yes.
Speaker 2:So she takes that nature everywhere she goes. Paul roots it in created order by saying it was Eve that was deceived. Eve was the one that was deceived, the first woman, she was the one that was deceived, right, not Adam, not the man. And so, yes, ruling politics had a school board, school school master, you know, or a headmaster, all the way down to the woman that has the right to vote, which, again, democracy. We're not the biggest fans, but women that can vote. All you have to do is just pull up the statistics over the last few elections and just arrange it by men who vote and women who vote, who they vote for.
Speaker 1:Well, it's interesting because the majority of married women voted for Trump. I'm not even talking red blue, I'm just saying married women. The majority voted for Trump. The vast, even bigger majority of single women voted for biden.
Speaker 1:Why do you think that is because single women are made to women, are made to have a head, and I think they're easily deceived. And the democrat party knows especially leftists know how to play the empathy card. They know how how to manipulate women and I think this is you know. Paul even says this. You know that false teachers were creep into house and prey on women.
Speaker 1:Why do you think it is that all these weak women, weak women, all these, you know, women without a head, women without a head, that's right. Why do you think all these lonely widows and married widows who are older are on like home shopping network and are giving money to televangelists because they don't have leadership, they don't have headship, which is actually a protection. So this is the other thing that lewis is really good about is the men are there to lead as protectors, like peter. Being high king isn't like great. Now, woman, go make me a sandwich. That's not what that is about the headship is for. You know, know, lewis will say in other essays, male headship and rule should look like the cruciform life.
Speaker 2:He even highlights this with Jadis and the planet that she comes from and how she made the decision to kill everyone.
Speaker 1:I think he actually. This is the witch in the line, the witch in the wardrobe but he actually.
Speaker 2:but it's magician's nephew is what I'm talking about. Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:But in I think it's in the line the witch in the wardrobe he refers to her as an offspring of Lilith, which is pretty interesting. I didn't catch that in previous readings of that, but that is pretty interesting. So but he ties it to the fall. I think in the Jewish myth it's like a Talmudic myth. I think Lilith is Adam's first wife or something like this Bad lady, hence the witch title.
Speaker 2:Yes, but she is the picture of the female ruler in his world. Yes, I mean as well as, like the, the green snake lady I can't remember her name now, but but yeah, uh, so you have a couple of pictures of what. What about, though, let me ask you, with lucy and um and um, susan, they're queens, what? What about them? Because they're ruling as well, correct?
Speaker 1:somebody brought that up, uh, in one of the comments. But it's interesting what their rule looks like. Uh, because they're not going to battle and they are definitely subservient. I mean, it's clear that edmund and peter are in charge, like they're the ones making the primary decisions and we don't get a big part of the story where they're, you know, Queens.
Speaker 1:No, I think even Lucy being given like her primary gift from Father Christmas is healing. She has a dagger, but it's small and it's for self-defense, but her primary thing is healing. And even with Susan she has the horn calling for help. It's like a rape whistle, I guess.
Speaker 2:Basically, no, no, it's not. It actually has a bigger theme, what you were mentioning. Uh, in in in caspian.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's beautiful but, yeah, she's the one who calls back to the kings of old to come and the old narnia, or her horn, caspian blows the horn, but they come to save the old narnia. So, yeah, there's these great themes, um, that are tied to it, but, but I, functionally, I think it's the same instinct where, uh, people are like, oh yeah, like in the comments, people are like, oh, women aren't supposed to rule. I guess you've never heard of Esther. I'm like that story does not prove that Esther was ruling. She's a queen, uh, but like, even the way she has to approach ashtar, her ruth or whatever his name is, however, you're supposed to say that, um is like subservient and submissive as a queen must. What happened to the first queen? She was dismissed because she was rude to her husband.
Speaker 2:yeah, well, he asked her. To display her body, for you know his nobles, so yeah there was that, there's that.
Speaker 1:but she was disobedient yes, she was to her husband and so she, yeah, is removed. So, yeah, I just think a lot of those cases where people use that it doesn't actually prove what they think it proves. I did have one guy, by the way, in the comments. He said there is no woman in the new testament who is portrayed as doing anything other than obeying the Lord. And like in two seconds I was like, well, sapphira was killed for disobeying God. That was the first one that came to mind.
Speaker 1:Um, jezebel was actually a false teacher in revelation two, 20. And like a real woman, I mean she's called Jezebel, but it's, it seems to be, you know well, but it seems to be, you know, referring to a real person in a real place. So that's pretty interesting. So you start adding this up and you're like there's actually a lot of Herod's wife, herod's wife's daughter. I see a lot of bad women. Yeah, actually, wow. But that, that instinct and I think that was a pastor who said that you, basically you don't think women sin and that's not at all what history nor the scriptures have taught us.
Speaker 2:No, explicitly no.
Speaker 1:So, dan, I kind of want to wrap things up here with why you think headship. First of all, I want to get in this broader question. There's a lot of conservatives and a lot of people in the reformed conservative camps who are like look, I agree with you on paper, but that's not the fight right now, and fundamentally like, if we want to win wide swaths of conservatives, we can't talk about headship, not like that. So is it worth it to be talking about it Simply because it's not pragmatically effective?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it could possibly be the issue of our time, the number one issue of our time. I mean, obviously, like people need to repent and believe in the gospel and turn to Christ and all of that, absolutely yes. Gospel and turn to Christ and all of that, absolutely yes. But the thing is, why do we, as Christians, allow non-Christians to be married? Because there's actually blessing in marriage. It's a picture of the gospel, though. Shouldn't that just be for for Christians? It's a Christian. You know remnants of, you know of of the of our society. Why, why is that still practice? Why did gay people want to be married so bad? Different conversation, but the the reason that we still would say it's a good thing for two unbelievers to be married instead of to live together without being married, is because it's actually a blessing for them to do that and it's a blessing for society.
Speaker 1:It's covenantal and creational.
Speaker 2:It's covenantal and creational and so, that being said, right ordered homes are the foundation of society. I mean read CR Wiley on some of this. I'm sure Zach Garris talks about it.
Speaker 2:Any of the Westminster divines, exactly, exactly, when you have disordered homes, you have disordered society. It's really simple. It's really simple. And the thing is institutions. You will see I mean, we could probably all see this If a church, as soon as a denomination or a church puts a woman on staff as an elder, it's over. It is the slide into irrelevance and to apostasy.
Speaker 1:Even if you call her a shepherdess or a deacon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or an admin, you know a type a director. A director is what the Baptists really like to do.
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Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and so how much more society? Well, yeah, households ruled by women. When you have governments ruled by women, when you have businesses ruled by women, when you have militaries ruled by women or those who dress like women, what are you going to have the end?
Speaker 1:So part of this is sort of it may be it's similar to the abortion conversation, but it's like the difference between abolition and the pro-life movement. I think there's a lot of people who are adjacent to our camp who would say things like yeah, but we're not going to win that fight today, like you're not going to repeal the 19th amendment tomorrow, so we need to start with, you know, just the general gospel, right, and so like don't, and they'll just kind of get annoyed with us, like can you please stop talking about like headship and like girl boss Inc. And you know, lady podcasters, because conservatives aren't ready for that and Republicans are like we need more bright women leading out front. I've heard that for years, you know, from the political pundits. We need more pretty ladies out front.
Speaker 1:So, strategically, are we being unwise by saying like no, we actually? We think this is a big issue, because I think what I want to say to all that is are you ashamed of Christ's words or not? Christ, paul and the scriptures are just abundantly clear. What happens when you put women in roles of leadership? We are doing a disservice to women, to men, to families and all society, and so I think what you're saying is like no, it's that important that unless you get that right, it really doesn't matter. On a lot of these other points.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, and I think so much of our work here not this episode in particular, but all of the body of work that we've done what we're trying to do and this is what the abolitionist movement misses and the pro-life movement misses is that they don't actually paint a positive vision for the future, and so all you hear from is fussing, is essentially it's fussing, and so not that abolitionism is wrong.
Speaker 1:I am yes, absolutely no abortion whatsoever Criminal punishment, and I'm sure there's like all of that within that movement. You know, some do better than others.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, individuals, I'm sure Individuals, I'm sure do that. I can think of a couple, but but overall as a movement, it is the reputation known as a positive vision for the future. It's not and and I understand, like the nature of abolition, uh, movement is is that you're trying to stop the murdering of children? That and that's, that's not. That's not the main point I'm trying to make. Why would we message the way that we do, to say that one of the biggest issues, if not the biggest issue, in our time is disordered gender roles, is disordered homes, is women in leadership?
Speaker 2:It's not insignificant because of the rest of our body of work, of painting the picture for the new Christendom and the glories that are to be had when you obey Christ and you build for his glory and for the sake of your people and for your generations. It will bring blessings to your children, to your grandchildren, to the thousand generation, lord willing. And so that's the overarching theme how do you actually get there to build a new Christendom? Well, you have to obey the Lord Jesus, and that begins at home.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and this is the crazy thing. Like you look at all of Paul's, you know the major New Testament letters, ephesians, romans, et cetera. When you get to household codes, where does Paul start with obedience to the gospel? Ephesians five it begins, you know the this is interesting. Well, guge even points to this out it begins with women submitting to their husbands. Well, and then in Paul, even before his address to to husbands, he says wives, submit to your husbands. That's the first thing that said about obeying the gospel wives submit.
Speaker 2:Right, and you recall, in Titus two, when, when Paul is telling Titus teach younger women to be workers at home, or older women, or to teach younger women to be workers at home, lest what happens, the word of God be reviled.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So if you're, if we're in part of these like conservative, quasi conservative, christian adjacent camps, and we say, well, yeah, but this lady, I know she's out in public, I know she's ruling in her home, I know she's a politician or whatever she is, but you know, but it's better than nobody doing it. But when you think about something like Titus 2, you're like, but this is causing the word of God to be reviled. Ultimately, isn't that what God's word says? Pretty clear? It's not. And this is one of the things I think with modern evangelicals. It's like, you know, what's really hard in all of this is actually that if you see what's clear in scripture and you just go, okay, I'm going to obey that, now you have people who hate you. Now people are upset.
Speaker 2:Well, possibly in your own home.
Speaker 1:Yes, in your own families, right? This is where it causes problems. I want to close on a positive though, because you've you've been talking about positive vision, yeah, and I think a lot of people could listen to a podcast like this and they go, yeah, but that's not you. You, I hear this all the time. That was cs lewis's day. Male headship doesn't work anymore. It simply doesn't work. You can't do it. Everything's feminist or egalitarian to the core. You can't actually practice, and nobody, dan, is practicing these things today, are they? And so what? I? I? That's my question. Are they? Do you find places that could you name, a place where you actually see male headship and females submitting and being happy and marriages thriving? Do you know such a place, dan?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do.
Speaker 1:Imperfectly, imperfectly.
Speaker 2:But yeah, in Ogden, utah we see it in our own church.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so paint the picture for me, because do a little CS Lewis, bring me into the environment. What is it like?
Speaker 2:I mean, let me just, let me just pull out CS Lewis-esque writing.
Speaker 1:I can barely get out a sentence without stumbling.
Speaker 1:But think about this. It's like if you place yourself in our environment one of the things that I hear the most from outsiders the ladies come here and they're like I was actually a little scared about the patriarchy stuff Like was it going to be super judgmental, or were the other ladies going to judge me? Or like I don't dress well enough or you know, I don't wear enough dresses, or what if I'm not ready to head cover whatever? They come here and the number one thing I hear is but the women are so joyful and happy and there's something about that that's magnetic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so again no, so imagine with me if you will.
Speaker 2:I will you're walking East on 26th street in Ogden, utah, your faces towards the mountains and the sun is rising over it and you see the snow cap peaks and you hear the echoes of psalm 104 coming from a tall, steepled church building that has stained glass and brick and a cornerstone uh, dedicated to a failed church that accepted women pastors. But inside is vibrant life. And you walk through those doors and you hear the ringing echoes of my soul, thy great creator, praise and see it filled with happy faces, joyful faces, squealing children, sopranos, sopranos and and young, young children singing off key, but as loud as possible, but as loud as possible. And there are men bouncing their children in the back and wives smiling at their husbands.
Speaker 2:And it's that's what, that's what Sunday is like at our church and it it is absolutely amazing, as you hear children, children that know the Lord's prayer, they know the Psalms, they know Psalm 134, they know Psalm 2. They know Psalm 104. They know Psalm 98. They know all of these Psalms, psalm 23. And you see children being taken out of the service by their fathers to the basement to be corrected for stealing their brother's snack, and women are going to back to nurse their, their children, and all radiating with joy. Even in the hard times there's joy and there's fruit, and there's one thing that's intangible, that you can't see, but you can definitely feel it, and there is a buzzing zeal and youthful excitement in the air that is contagious and makes your heart sing.
Speaker 1:It does. Yeah, wow, that was powerful Dan.
Speaker 2:You should be a writer. I can barely read.
Speaker 1:I can barely read. Don't let him fool you. Yeah, that is beautiful and I think too, even you mentioned the singing. Mm-hmm, you mentioned the singing. The beauty of like a four part singing is that when women and they're usually soprano, right, soprano or alto, but soprano is dominant and then a lot of times carrying the melody or something like that, but you get into these fuguing tunes and you have the men in the bases and the tenors, but a lot of bases. That's my people. But do you think about the way that they lead generally and how a bass, the bass part, really fills the place?
Speaker 2:It goes in first and fuguing tunes, which I think is interesting.
Speaker 1:It is. And then the melody carried by the Sopranos is this sweet melodic accent piece. It's beautiful, it's glorious. When they're working together, they're great. You take that same female voice and you put her up front preaching and it's nothing but screeching. So, and for all of us, or or the bass, who's like trying to sing with a lisp, you know the whole point is God created that order and that range and for each, for men and women, for each sex, to know their role and know their place and fit, and what you get at the end of the day, when you play your part and you play your role that God gave you, you get this beautiful hymn. And when, if people like, if the sopranos go, stand in the bass section and be like, no, I'm a man now, it doesn't work.
Speaker 2:It becomes annoying. Yeah, yeah, really. What you're identifying is that God weaved throughout nature the harmony of the masculine and the feminine, and one of the ways that he did that was through voice, and so when we sing four part Psalms in harmony together, you hear the blending of these beautiful voices of of the women with the men as compliments to the men, and it is absolutely gorgeous in harmony. And it's the same thing in a home when everyone knows what their responsibilities, what their duties are and where their roles are, you have a house that is harmonious, that is a fruitful place and it is beautiful. But when you have a disjointed roles and duties and a lack of clarity as to what those are, you essentially have the orchestra warm up before before they all hit, like or whatever.
Speaker 1:It's like you're 12 year old, when they're like playing the violin and you're like oh that's not pleasant, and it it does result in pain and actually death.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. No, that's really helpful, Dan. I appreciate that. I appreciate this conversation. By the way, come join us June 6th through 8th in Ogden, Utah, if you want to hear some of that singing. There's going to be a packed house. One of the other things we want to let you know we'll be at Ogden High School, a very beautiful building. You can catch some of the Instagram reels are up about that to see what that building looks like on my Eric on my Instagram or on Brian's surveys a bunch of pictures and stuff like that. It's going to be a beautiful venue. We're going to have at least 650 people, because that's what we got today and there's going to be more, Dan, but there's going to be glorious singing.
Speaker 2:Sunday is going to be great because our whole church is going to be here.
Speaker 1:Well, that's what I want to encourage people to. One of the things that we need to talk more about is that we will have Ogden High School for Sunday service, so we won't be in the church building, so that we can accommodate everybody who's here and in town. So we want to encourage you, we need like four services.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it just wouldn't work. So if you're in town, please stay. We'd love to have you for worship on Sunday in Ogden, utah. I guess that'll be the 9th, the 9th, june 9th. Come and join us. Go to the link in the show notes or go to new Christendom press dot com slash conference to sign up for that conference. We look forward to seeing you guys there once again. Dan, thank you so much for joining me for this episode. Hedgehip is great, we love it. Dan, thank you so much for joining me for this episode. Headship is great, we love it. And CS Lewis Narnia, game changer, game changer. Dan, do you remember our closing?
Speaker 2:I put you on the spot one more time. Stay frosty.
Speaker 3:Fight the good fight and act like men. Let's go.