Hard Men Podcast
Hard Men Podcast
Recovering the Lost Art of Hospitality
While churches are full of age specific programs today, the actual, biblical command to practice hospitality has fallen by the wayside. In this episode, I talk with Pastor Kevin Griffin about why we as a church need to recover the lost art of hospitality. We'll discuss practical issues, as well as biblical principles behind the practice.
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This episode of the Hard Men podcast is brought to you by Joe Garrisi, with Backwards Planning, financial, by our friends at Alpine Gold, by Max D Trailers, salt and Strings, butchery, premier Body, armor and finally by Reformation Heritage Books. The nature of hospitality. Many of us who are older recall times when these were ordinary and expected virtues that could be observed in nearly the entire country, at least outside of the large cities which seemed to have difficulties with them. In every age, we once expected kind Christian treatment as a matter of course, and we usually got it. We would have been shocked not to receive it. Today the world is very different, and whenever someone happens to receive kindness from a stranger, he is amazed and writes a letter to the local newspaper to tell everyone how wonderful it was actually to meet a considerate and truthful person. This is a symptom of cultural disintegration, and if we as Christians fail to understand and apply the commands of hospitality in the covenant community, our churches, like our culture, will eventually die as the Christian memory is lost and as respect for Christian moral standards erodes. We will continue to see with increasing starkness what we have witnessed the last 25 to 30 years. Having shown the scriptural commands in the last chapter.
Speaker 1:I'd now like to discuss the characteristics of hospitality. In a world like ours, anyone who wishes to talk about hospitality will probably sound rather outdated and obsolete, as if he wants to return to the little house on the prairie, or perhaps Mayberry. We do not have time for that sort of thing. Too many important things to do. Who can be hospitable in the realities of our 24-7 world? I wish that such thoughts only entered the minds of unbelievers, but it is evident that the vast majority of churchgoers think in the same way, because the surrounding culture has so successfully infected us with their philosophy of time.
Speaker 1:One of the most common complaints against churches is that they are unfriendly, and it is the most common complaint because, it is true, we have lost the sense and the spirit of the scriptures on this topic. The problem can be traced back to the simple neglect of hospitality. God's people have drifted away from what the Bible teaches and what God expects of them in this area. Many of the woes of the modern church can be traced to a neglect of this most holy privilege and obligation, for we truly have neglected it. Hospitality, where it still exists, is largely an unstudied virtue. It springs from the particular personality of individuals or the circumstances in which they are placed, but it is not done as a matter of principled obedience, as it should be, regardless of personality, circumstances, wealth or social standing. This is an obligation that requires discipline and diligence, like any other difficult part of the Christian life. God commands it of us for our good, for the edification of the church and for his own glory, and it is slack carelessness to leave it to happenstance or convenience.
Speaker 1:An excerpt from Face to Face by Steve Wilkins. Face to Face by Steve Wilkins. Well, welcome to this episode of the Hard man Podcast. I'm your host, eric Kahn, and I'm joined by a very special guest. Today we have pastor Kevin Griffin. Kevin, thanks for joining me, eric.
Speaker 2:It is such a delight to be here with you A delight, a hospitable delight. It is a delight Anytime I get to sit down with Eric Kahn face to face.
Speaker 1:Face to face key phrase.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I love it. Well, kevin, welcome to this discussion. You recently preached on hospitality and it's been an ongoing conversation in the church Refuge Church in Ogden, I think largely because we've been growing, god's been blessing the work and, as we've seen growth, we've asked a lot of questions like how do you deal with a growing church body? One of the things that we've kind of come to is this one another in concept and hospitality. So I want to ask you just why? Why did we end up with hospitality? Do we make this up? Or perhaps it's biblical and we think this is God's way for caring for the body of Christ?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know in our local body here, one of the things that we've seen as the church has been growing is a lot of young couples coming in and it is just wildly apparent that people are deeply hungry for community. Deeply hungry for community. They've been, especially through COVID, have felt as though they've been disconnected from community, from hospitality, from friendship and just warmth in life, and so this push towards hospitality has really just been looking to the scriptures and how they talk about a community. What does that look like? How are we to act with one another? What can we do? And so it's really just a call to go back to the old ways, things that have been lost, and as we look back at history, as we look to the Word, we just see this normal life and it looks like Christian hospitality, it looks like one anothering really well, and that is one of the great missions of the church and a huge witness to the gospel in the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's really helpful. One of the lines I love that we read in the cold open from Steve Wilkins, who's a pastor as well. But he says this is a symptom of cultural disintegration and if we as Christians fail to understand and apply the commands of hospitality in the covenant community, our churches, like our culture, will eventually die. Yeah, that's a pretty powerful statement. It reminds me of the book Bowling Alone I don't know if you've read this, but Robert Putnam Bowling Alone the collapse and revival of American community and he really talks about how, after World War II, we've just lost any sense of neighborly care, hospitality being a big part of it.
Speaker 1:I was struck by this. I was pastoring in a rural town and one of our older church members dropped by my house one day unannounced and he was standing at the door. He said how are things going? I said good, and I was like I I don't know what he wants. And finally he looked at me and he said this is the part where you invite me in for a cup of coffee. And oh man, kevin, it was like a chastening. I was like, oh, I just got like verbally spanked by this older man very graciously and it was good, but I realized kind of in that moment what Putnam and what Steve Wilkins are pointing out that we've lost that. Oh yeah, my question to you is why do you think that is? What do you think culturally has happened? We have churches that are highly programmed and programmatic, we have more activities than we've ever had, but not necessarily hospitality. So as you look at our culture, you look at some of the obstacles. What do you think has caused this disintegration?
Speaker 2:I think one of the big ones is our just deep desire for ease and comfort, and Christian hospitality requires the exact opposite of that. Yeah, it requires a. It asks a lot of you and we're just, we don't. We don't like that.
Speaker 2:The programs at church you mentioned highly programmatic churches. That's something that we've steered away from hugely and seen as an area where we need to correct in the church is because when your whole life is programmed and you go from one activity to the next, to the next, it requires nothing of you personally. But Christian hospitality is something that must be done as a community, yes, but specifically by each and every individual. Each and every individual must learn how to die to themselves and to serve their brothers and sisters, and it does require hard work. And particularly and this is one of the things I talked about in the sermon is that the Christian hospitality is so much better caught rather than taught. It is something that's so easy and natural to grow up into. It's very easy, as we've seen.
Speaker 2:You mentioned, just even after the war, the real decline in that it's so easy to lose and it's hard to regain and really I think a big part of it is because it is a, it's a spiritual muscle that needs to be practiced, it needs to be strengthened, it needs to be built up, we need to be encouraging one another in it, and so when we do not take that personally, every family, every individual and see this and we lose sight of the vision of hospitality, we just get atrophied muscles in this area and it really it just slowly erodes, and I think that's exactly what we've seen in the Christian church and in community as well. But I would be curious to know if you see any other areas. So I focus primarily on the church. You think we see this in other places within the culture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think definitely, particularly as you look at statistics like the rates of depression, especially in young people, but also because of things like 2007,. You have the iPhone introduction people, but also because of things like 2007,. You have the iPhone introduction, 2011,. It hits full swing. And then we have a whole generation, igen, which is basically discipled by their phone, and so a lot of studies Jean Twenge in her book iGen, has pointed this out but a lot of studies will show that people are having less and less face-to-face interactions. So, like the average teenager today, most of their social interactions are online on their phone, and so it's like they don't know how to have real relationships with real people. It's Snapchat, it's TikTok, it's Instagram. That's where they're connecting with their friends, and I think the problem is a lot of that is very fake and it's kind of designed that way.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying people are all trying to be fake on Instagram, but who goes on Instagram generally and is like oh, you know, we had a really rough day. There was a lot of disobedience in the home, we had to clean up. You know, I lost my temper with my spouse so I had to repent. People usually post the best parts, and so there's been these upticks and things like FOMO. You know that is fear of missing out. I think that's a huge part of it. And then I think we just don't do a lot of stuff anymore community wise. So if you look at a book like Out of the Ashes with Anthony Esalen, he talks about how we didn't use it as a nation even 70, 80 years ago. We didn't use it as a nation even 70, 80 years ago. We didn't use to primarily be like a sports ball on TV culture. We were sports ball, but it was adult men's baseball leagues. This is before even softball. So you know, once, twice a week, you would get together with all the people in your local community, in your neighborhood, and you would do things together. We used to have, like you know, dance halls where the town would congregate, bowling alone, even bowling alleys. I can remember back to my parents' generation. Every Tuesday night, every Thursday night, all the people in town would get together at the bowling alley. It wasn't the drunks, it was families. Everybody would get together and you know, as kids we were in like a kids bowling league. Of course the parents had theirs, but what I've seen is, with the rise of things like tv people, just I mean in my neighborhood alone. It's funny. I know there are kids in the neighborhood, but people come home from work, they pull their car into their garage, they don't wave to each other and you, you almost never see your neighbors.
Speaker 1:One thing I think is interesting but years ago in Louisville, when we were in seminary, we got kind of the remnants of a hurricane and that knocked out power for like 12 days and it was really interesting. In our apartment complex you don't have AC, it's the middle of summer and you don't have TV. So what did people do? Everybody congregated in lawn chairs in the parking lot or on their porch. All the kids played together.
Speaker 1:It was like one of the most amazing weeks of my life. Isn't that so funny? Yeah, and it was crazy because it was like we have neighbors. Yeah, I never even see these people. I see their car. Maybe I see some of them coming and going, but I've never, like, had a conversation with them.
Speaker 1:And it was interesting because the sense of community immediately went up. No wonder everybody feels lonely. We don't talk to each other. You know front porches, especially in old Ogden. It's kind of cool with the houses and when I first. I first moved into our house when we moved to Ogden on 29th. It was funny because I was like man, this is really awkward. My front porch is like a driveway a short driveway across from my neighbors, and like they're always on their front porch and if I'm on mine, like we have to talk to each other. But then I got to thinking about that Like they probably designed it that way on purpose. Oh yeah, absolutely, because neighbors were supposed to be neighborly. It's interesting. At the end I told the hurricane story. We got power back and immediately everybody went back inside and they turned their TVs on. And it was kind of eyeopening because I thought how sad. You know that we, we just have no point of interaction anymore with people.
Speaker 1:There was also one pivotal moment in early pastoral ministry when I had said to I think we had three elders at the time and I said to two of them they were kind of like I go to my house and lock the doors, type people, and I said, hey, you know one of the things I think I'd like to do.
Speaker 1:And there was another pastor who was on board with this but said I'd like to say, like each elder, let's have one person into your home once a month, and these two gentlemen absolutely flatly refused. And one of the things that had convicted me on this was 1 Timothy 3, 2, which you have the requirements for an overseer, elder, and it says this therefore, an overseer must be above reproach, elder, and it says this therefore, an overseer must be above reproach. The husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable and able to teach. So I got convicted on it because I was like okay, well, as elders, we should be leading in this, and we weren't. And then I also thought like this isn't an optional scriptural thing, like this is probably something that you had to wrestle with. I know you mentioned it in the sermon, but a lot of people will say things like well, I'm just introverted, oh yeah, so therefore I'm exempt from the biblical command. How do you answer that sort of thing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, what it is usually is. Someone says, well, I'm, I'm introverted, this is just the way God made me, and also on top of that, and I just don't have the gift of hospitality. Well, the gift of hospitality is certainly a real thing. There are people I mean, you can't, you can't have a group of friends or any any community where you don't identify one person or one couple who is just, they're great at it. And when you see that it is a, it's amazing. But for the introverted person you mentioned, um, it's a requirement for an elder to uh, to model. But then we also have a text in. Well, let's just let me pull it up here and read it. Um, it's from first Peter four, and first Peter four is talking about he's talking about the community. Things are very serious.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's lots of yep 7 through 11. The church is really receiving a lot of social persecution. And he talks about above. So let's start here, in verse 8. 1 Peter, 4, verse 8. And above all things, have fervent love for one another, or love will cover a multitude of sins. Be hospitable to one another without grumbling and as each one has received a gift, minister to one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
Speaker 2:So here we have, scripturally a command to be hospitable. There isn't the exclusion for the introverted and it makes perfect sense because the introverted person, one of the things we're called to do is model Christ and that looks like many times us dying to our preferences, the things that we naturally might be inclined to do, sins we might normally fall into. We need to die to these things and live for Christ. And here we have the word of God telling us to be hospitable to one another without grumbling. And for the introverted person, there is going to be a great deal of grumbling that will come from actually having to put yourself out there to be hospitable. And to be hospitable it looks like planning. It looks like you going out, you initiating, you inviting someone in and then you leading in conversation you leading in, pouring yourself out for them to minister the gospel of Jesus Christ, his love, his peace, his mercy, his grace, his kindness to those you have in your home and that is a big ask for an introverted person and investment strategy.
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Speaker 1:Well, it's interesting too, because I think of even somebody like my wife. She tends to be more on that spectrum of like her. Her ideal restful thing would be like reading a book alone at the end of a day. But it's interesting because I've noticed this in the years. As you mentioned before, it's a muscle and over the years it's my wife has grown to love hospitality, in fact to the point, kevin, sometimes, where I'm like babe, four people one week, I don't know, and she's like I know, but they're new and like we need to welcome them. So correct me if I'm wrong. You've probably seen this too with other people, where this is something you can develop. So if today you're saying this is really scary, I don't know how I would do this. You want me to invite people into my home. I didn't grow with this. This is God will equip you by his grace and spirit to do this.
Speaker 2:But you can. You can learn the habit, you can learn the muscle Right, absolutely One hundred percent. You can learn how to do this. And so how, how would you grow in this? And to that I would just say look, look around you, look, try to find that person who does clearly have the gift of hospitality and ask them some practical tips and how you could grow in this. That's going to be huge, but even then, as long as you can have a positive vision for hospitality, you have a bearing point, something that you're heading towards. This is what Christian hospitality is and this is what I'm commanded to do, and then you just begin practicing it exactly where you are.
Speaker 2:So some objections maybe we could talk about some objections. Yeah, some objections to this might be I don't make very much money. I don't have a great place to host people. I'm in an apartment. We're a young couple, we don't make a lot of money. Some ladies I've even heard in our own congregation say but man, I'm just not a very good cook. Well, if you remember, to the parable of the talents, the master gives the talent. My brothers and sisters, you've been given a talent, whatever that is, whether it's two or 10, invest your talent well.
Speaker 2:So if you don't have much money, you're in an apartment whether it's peanut butter and jelly and chocolate chip cookies around a lifetime table in your apartment and done over, joyful conversation and ministering to one another. Praise God, you've been faithful with what you were given and that's the call, that's the call of Christian hospitality to be faithful with what you were given. Everything you're given, it is not something that you've come up with, it is not your own resources. They have come from God and the command is to freely and joyfully give them. And when you do that, when you experience that, you pour yourself out and you think you're going to end just completely emptied. But that's not the currency, that's not the economy of the kingdom, that's not how God works.
Speaker 2:When you pour yourself out and you model Christ, he delights to bless you, he delights to fill your cup and it is just it's so. It's contagious, is what it is. It's contagious when you do this well and you get it, you want to do it more. And the more you do it and the better you get at it, the more everyone around you just it's a delight and you model that for them. You know, in my house, my, my daughter Nora, she, she's nine and she, she is one of the most joyful people I've ever met in my entire life, and I'm not just saying that because my daughter.
Speaker 1:I can testify she is.
Speaker 2:She is just never not smiling, and she has grown up only knowing her parents being hospitable. She's nine years old and it just delights her to set a beautiful table. I mean it, I. You should see her.
Speaker 2:Oh oh, people are coming over. A mom, we could get that new, uh, we could get that new centerpiece that we kind of put together. What if we did this? And she gets all excited about it. Well, this is her, having grown up working these muscles, being included in the process, and it is so effortless for her. And this, this is a girl who's nine years old. Nine years old and she's just one. I believe she has the gift of hospitality. The other part is she's grown up working out this muscle and and stepping in, uh, doing, doing more weight, doing more reps, as she was strengthened to this point where it is just easy and it feels like it. It just feels like you're doing what you were created to do as a human being.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, well, it's so interesting, kevin, because you mentioned the objection of like money. It's interesting because I've gone to people in our church's house who've had us over, who are very well off, have giant, beautiful homes and it's a wonderful. You know, you could have a ribeye dinner with, like I mean, we're doing whiskey tastings with like happy, like 15 and 20 year, and I'm like this is amazing. But it is so interesting Like the other day, uh, one of the people in our parish had us over and they have a small basement apartment and I got to their door and there was a sign on the door their kids had made like welcome, pastor con. We're so excited You're going to come. And we had tri-tip and it. I mean it was just beautiful.
Speaker 1:Uh, we sat down and they're very intentional. They were like how can we be praying for you, how can we be praying for the church? And I'm not going to lie, I walked away and there was like tears in my eyes, like the blessing that they had blessed us with just to be in their home, to to be around their children. The kids had, um, they kept asking me all these questions. In between conversation They'd slide me a note and I had to answer it Like what's your favorite movie? And I'm like what are they?
Speaker 2:doing.
Speaker 1:And at the end, when I leave, they give me this huge piece of paper that was all folded and they had drawn pictures of all my favorite things. And yeah, that stuff's in my office at home and I was just thinking what a blessing, whether you have a lot or a little, that was just as rich of an experience, you know, to be able to sit with them, to be loved and to know that this is going on in our community. I think is really powerful. The other objection I would point to that I think is very common is related to scheduling.
Speaker 1:People say I'm too busy and what I found is you know, again, this goes to kind of our culture, but it's like, yeah, well, when you have five kids and they're all in some travel sports league and you know the schedule is going to be crazy, you really do actually have to plan ahead of time. You really do actually have to plan ahead of time, meaning you may actually have to go back to before, before there's anything on the calendar, and say what are our priorities as a family? So for us, you know my oldest, benjamin, he's, he's played some tennis, but we intentionally pick something for him to do. He wanted to do a sport, we're like okay, but it's limited. It's like for a time in the spring season's not very long he can do lessons and other stuff around flexible schedules. But we intentionally picked something like we're not doing sports leagues on Sunday, and really not on Saturday either. For the most part and the reason was is because we said no, hospitality and fellowship and being with the body of Christ, those are our priorities, and so we're going to schedule accordingly.
Speaker 1:This is sort of the thing where people feel like their spending and their budget is out of control and what you have to teach them is no, you're actually making choices. It may not feel like you are, but you're responsible for those choices, and so you know again, refuge Church, we're not afraid of ruffling some feathers, so we just try to teach our people that no, fellowship is a priority, and so that means you're going to need a schedule that reflects that. And I'll be honest, kevin, there's been some of our diaconal candidates and some of just churchmen great churchmen too where it's like every Saturday night they have a Sabbath dinner planned and they're like that's just part of their schedule, where every Saturday they're going to invite a different family, like they've just wrapped it in the warp and woof of their people and their place that they're going to do that. Talk to me a little bit about scheduling. Are there any other issues you commonly see with that? And it's like you feel like that's a common objection. Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, this is the way the culture has shown us, this is how you establish your schedule, you do all of these things, you fill up your week and then the modern church has just said OK, well, with what's left, you fill in with what's left when you're exhausted, when you're you're have no time left.
Speaker 1:That's what you get.
Speaker 2:That that's what you get, and so, of course, it looks. It looks horrific it, and it's dying right. We've lost it. We've lost Christian hospitality. Because of this, we first, instead of giving the Lord our first fruit. So we come to Sunday and we give him our worship. That's how we start our week. We come to his table where he nourishes us, and then he sends us out. We don't first tend to fill up our schedule with things that he's commanded us to do. We often fill it up with the things we want to do and then, as you said, with what's left, with the little bit of energy we might be able to eke out. We give something, but this is not the way that the Lord works.
Speaker 1:He says give me your first fruits. Yeah, I think that's such a good point and I know for me I can speak personally. I grew up in a family where, like Sunday, we watch football, broncos, football, baby, like that was life, and so I mean there were days where, like we would leave church early because the game was early. We'd have 11 o'clock game. So it's like we gotta, we gotta get out of here, getting into Westminsterian Presbyterianism, reading the Westminster confession, being pretty convicted about Sabbatarianism, at least to some extent. It was a hard change, but this is maybe a way where technology can benefit you. We just have we watched through like a streaming app the football games. But here's the deal, you can record them, and so this is actually a really nice thing because the Broncos have been so horrible. I'm like number one watching the games ruins your Sunday. So I think that I always say to my wife I was like I think God was trying to get my attention Right, but it was really interesting because I was like you don't have to do this. Yeah, right To your point about picking priorities love sports. Again. Grew up, I was a sports writer, love sports. I'm like you know what I'm? Going? To honor the Lord, I'm not going to do that on the Lord's day. We can record them and then what I would do is, like you know you check the score or whatever. Know they got killed. I don't even need to watch the recording, I'm joyful, nothing to even be upset about. But let's say you want to watch the game, you can record it and watch later or watch highlights, like and what it did, the the real reason we did that.
Speaker 1:Okay, so studying sabbatarianism, but also early church, lord's day practice I was actually researching it because I had to teach on the lord's supper and like what was their practice, and it's interesting because we maybe don't get all the details we would want about what they did. But one thing is very clear the day was spent in fellowship with other Christians, like they would worship, they would do the Lord's Supper and then like all day as much as they could and were able. It was a day just like the early church to be together with God's people, to feast, to pray for one another. And so, yeah, looking at all the data, I was like, yeah, no, I need to really actually go back to the drawing board and say football cannot be my priority on Sunday. You know, I can't turn down fellowship because there's a Sunday night game on. I just I think that would be bad.
Speaker 1:So we start making the change and at first, yeah, like the first week, it was like hard week two, kevin, I didn't even, I was like I don't even care. Yeah, you know, obviously, like NFL, they become so gay anyway. But in in this for us this years ago, but just saying like that's not the priority, the unique thing about it, I feel like this is many hard obediences are like this with the Lord, you felt like you were losing something, but what you gained in return was so much better. Yes, the joy, the fellowship, being together with other people.
Speaker 2:I want to get your thoughts on that and then ask if you have any other things that you see as like major objections that people have. Yeah, I've had very similar experiences I. Some of my uh fondest memories growing up were, uh, with my family. I'm from the south and my uh, the the griffins, have a a big farm in georgia on griffin lane, and I remember your own lane. They have their own, they had their own lane. We have our own lane.
Speaker 2:But I remember family reunions and all the connections in this small town and it really is kind of the picture of Mayberry, uh it is. I remember going up there and you go to church together. You come home from church and everyone brings a little something. No one's worked very hard at it it is the Sabbath, after all but it's coming together and it's assembling a little lunch and eating out in the lawn and I remember the big pecan trees sitting out under there and just some nice outdoor like swings and and furniture and just gathering around the tree and talking together and and laughing and and, of course, in the south, good joke tellers, good storytellers, so there was plenty of that. There's a big age range, there's little kids running around, there's, um, there's the grandparents and and and, just all their funny, just all their funny memories hearing these stories. And on the property is a pond and the kids would get in the tractor, our uncle's tractor, and he'd take us and drive us over to the pond and all the boys would be fishing and someone would have found a huge frog, and it was just a day spent just in joyful fellowship with one another and nobody, nobody, could experience that and not go.
Speaker 2:Man, I want, I would, I just want more of that. But what does it take to have that? What does it take to have that, that? And it takes giving up our immediate ease. We've talked about this a little bit. Giving up our immediate ease because we have the vision of what it could look like.
Speaker 2:This story, the story that you told of getting together when the power was out, with your neighbors. I had a similar thing happen two years ago when all of the main line, main water lines on our street broke, and so me and the master plumber next door we just did a whole street wide repair all the everyone's main water lines that they would have been down for weeks and weeks and weeks, and it turned into a street wide party for several days. Everyone was cooking meals for one another, we were eating together and and people who do not go to church, they do not love the Lord they got a taste of what real community looks like and it to this day. Everyone looks back on what some people would see as a major inconvenience, like losing your power, and they just went. Wow, this is just.
Speaker 1:It was actually a blessing in disguise what a blessing.
Speaker 2:This is one of my fondest memories and we're you know, the guys are covered in mud. The the wives are all in the kitchen making food. We're getting together, we're cracking jokes, we're teasing, the guys are teasing one another well this.
Speaker 1:It's interesting because the connection between work and feasting, yeah, uh, wendell Berry tells a story in kind of the you know he's from Kentucky but telling the stories as a kid of like tobacco cutting days, like brutal, brutal work. He's like it's like most physically hard work you could do. But he said what they would do is like they would harvest. Everybody in the community would come together to help. You know a guy clear a field, basically take, take stuff to the barn, do all the cutting. But he said they would all feast together. And he said when we got to automated machinery it kind of killed that. Everything became automated and then everybody became like an Island. You didn't have these community work projects that were also tied to a feast and so a big part of the community was lost.
Speaker 1:But I also think about it in this way the Lord commanded in the Old Testament not only that, like during harvest season you have a series of feasts. Some of these are days long, like seven day feasts. So there's something about the Lord. We know Jesus is the Lord of the wedding feast, right. We know that he loves to throw a party for his people. There's something, kevin, about being commanded by the Lord, not only to work, but to to practice Sabbath rest and to practice feasting. So this really hit me. I want to ask you about.
Speaker 1:It really hit me. After you preach your sermon on hospitality, I happen to be doing the officiating for communion and I was like wow, like the Lord is setting a table before us every week and he's commanding feast and be joyful. Now that does something to a culture and a people. Not only that, the Lord does it for us. But then we turn around and we say we're going to be that kind of people to each other. The Lord does it for us, but then we turn around and we say we're going to be that kind of people to each other. Why does God command not just to be austere you know, dragging your feet to the table but he commands joyful feasting. Why?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, the Lord's table is a perfect model for this. At the Lord's table, he's given us uh, he's given us the, the wheat, he's given us the grapes, and then he calls us to go out and tend them and cultivate them, and then we break down all of these raw ingredients, we make bread, we ferment the grapes and we tend that and we pull it at just the right time, we age it and then we bring all of this raw things that we've combined, that we name, and we bring it back and present it to the Lord and at the beginning of our week we get to sit down with one another and we get to take those raw ingredients that he has given us, that we have labored, and return something even better and sit down and feast together. So even at the Lord's table, it's the perfect model for us in our hospitality. This is the culmination of all of our work is shared festivity with God and with one another.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's such a beautiful picture. You're right. One of the questions that arises for me is sort of with automation of everything, busy schedules, all the cultural mailu that we talked about. One of the things I think that hospitality does is it also returns the glory to women as homemakers and people who set a feast before their people. Because I think what?
Speaker 1:Maybe from the outside people are like oh they, you know refuge, the Ogden guys, they talk about patriarchy and it's like the wicked oppression of women and they're like serfs and, you know, slaves in the home. And you know they're, they're always. They won't even make eye contact with you because there's, you know, just so browbeaten. But then, like yesterday, you come to our feast and I was just marveling the children, the families, the women, everybody who pitched in. Women are going to play a pivotal role in food preparation and table setting and making the home. You know, the man goes out and he, he basically wins all these raw ingredients and he brings them home and she's the beautifier. And I look at that and I look at our women and I think we have some of the most amazing women on planet earth. What a blessing.
Speaker 1:Amen, but it's really returning them correct me if I'm wrong to the glory of their role as mothers. So it's no longer you're not just the lady who chauffeurs people to soccer practice. Oh yeah, I mean, that's such a dull, boring, drab view of what it means to be a mother. Not that you won't have things in your day-to-day that you have to go do milk pickups right, it's all grocery pickups. You do that. But correct me if I'm wrong. Again, this just we need this for women to be able to experience a true glory in their communities.
Speaker 2:Oh, a hundred percent. Our ladies are. What a glory, oh yeah, they're amazing. And if you, if you're listening, and you have maybe a negative view of a patriarchy, a negative view even of the Ogden guys, come, come to my house, come to our community and I dare you, I just dare you to come here and experience the hospitality and then tell me that patriarchy is, is wicked evil, all of those things you, just you would have to lie to yourself to be a part of a community where the ladies are.
Speaker 2:We have some smart ladies. I mean, they are wildly intelligent and yet they set the most beautiful table and we want to make in our culture, we want to make ladies where it's one or the other, and the lady who sets a beautiful table and cooks a wonderful meal and stays at home is just this, almost dullard. And this career lady over here is this, she's the, she's the pinnacle, she's the peak. When you experience just truth, living the way that God has created us to live, and when you get to see that on full display, like we do in our homes, it is just a glory, it is a wonderful blessing to have to have wives like that, to have ladies like that and to see it again, this is one you just would have to lie to yourself to sit in anyone's homes, the guys around here, and not just go man, that's a wonderful, that is a wonderful woman. Beauty inwardly, outwardly, that's just. I want that. I want that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so interesting too on the front with ladies and homemaking and hospitality, that being one of their like. It's somewhere near the center of the mission, right, even looking at what Paul says in the new Testament. But it's also interesting because I think people have this perception that, like we're constantly like browbeating our ladies into something where I've actually noticed the opposite, where we have some wonderful ladies here and then new families will come, they'll move here or they move from a local area. They come to the church and you don't have to say a word. They see glory.
Speaker 1:Glory is attractive, goodness, beauty and truth and the role of motherhood, and they just start doing it, not because anybody told them to. I mean, there is explicit teaching, of course, from scripture and from the pulpit glory. Like you think of what Paul says about Moses he beheld the glory of God and now we behold the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ and we are transformed from one degree of glory to another. And then Moses comes down from the mountain. His face shines to the point he has to cover it. It's uncovered now in Christ, and it's when you have a glory like a woman, a godly, beautiful wife and mother, if you're a young lady and woman, a godly beautiful wife and mother. If you're a young lady and you're like, what do I do with my life? We've seen so many career women come here and just say, no, that's the glory, and nobody was like browbeating her into that because it's something you want?
Speaker 2:yes, I. How many people have come in the door, er Eric, where the guy is? They're doing the norm, they're just doing the normie life, okay. And they come in and the lady sees, sees our ladies and goes oh man, that's it. Yeah, I've been lied to this entire time, that's it. And and their husband is maybe a little, you know, maybe not quite on board is very comfortable with the way things are and she's going. Man, I want my husband to lead me like that, yep, and it's so often it's the ladies who are actually going oh, no, that cause we've seen the glorious thing. That's what, that's it, that's what I'm created to do. I see it now. And then the guys are like, wow, okay, to do, I see it now. And then the guys are like, wow, okay, look at my wife and they're excited about her, her zeal and fire now to do this, and it's a great motivator for them to oh man, okay, well, I need to step up. I'm going to need to lead my family.
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Speaker 1:It's really interesting to me too, because when you think about, I think for people like if you listen to the podcast podcast, maybe you see twitter and you're like, okay, these guys are just pure pugilists all the time. They're always like attacking these fights out here, um, on the periphery or whatever you know, whatever the enemy of the day is. I do think particularly I noticed this in the south a lot of the I love these guys, but a lot of the old, like culture warrior types. It was always like you know, we're attacking these enemies outside, like the lgbt, the gay community is coming after your kids, like very vigilant, like we need to fight the culture war, and I think they were right about that. But you could also have that without the really warm hearth and without really beautiful things behind you.
Speaker 1:And so this quote I'll share two quotes, but this, this first one, is from GK Chesterton, and I love this because it's a constant reminder to me. I am Marshall by spirit. Love, a good fight, but this puts it in the right, I think, biblical perspective. He said the true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him but because he loves what is behind him. And I think if people come here they would get a sense of that. Like again, yesterday we had a churchwide parish picnic and man, all the people there. I was kind of standing on the periphery at one point and I'm just watching and I'm thinking of the proverb that the glory of a King is his people. And wow, God has blessed this community with some wonderful people. And the reason we fight and we is his people and wow, god has blessed this community with some wonderful people. And the reason we fight and we defend the truth and the reason that we do the pugilism, even the reason that we make the podcast, really we're oriented toward our people.
Speaker 2:They are this glory Absolutely.
Speaker 1:So I and I think to your point. I think people just maybe wouldn't see that we're not. This is one of the kind of the things I didn't like about say like the you know, maybe it's like the Daily Wire, ben Shapiro, or like the whole aim is like drink liberal tears, I don't drink liberal tears. I drink this, you know, with my people. This is the feast and we want to protect that culture. So I think, if I could put it in kind of a simple way yes, we're culture warring, but as Doug has always said, doug Wilson, you can't fight a culture war without a culture. Your culture has to be robust and you have to spend a lot of time building it. And again, I want to get your take on this, but it seems like hospitality is like at the heart of that.
Speaker 2:It's part of this battle. Oh, absolutely it's. I mean, I would even go so far as to say it is the thing. So you're fighting these culture wars. You're out there saying, hey, don't do this, don't do that. But are you presenting? And more than this, not just are you presenting, are you giving a theological and intellectual argument, just are you presenting, are you giving a theological and intellectual argument? But then are you actually living out and modeling a better thing? If you aren't doing that, then all the head knowledge in the world, all the best arguments fall flat because again, as Doug would say, your theology comes out your fingertips.
Speaker 2:In Christian hospitality, it really is the gospel, the knowledge of the gospel of Christ, flowing out of your mind and your heart and into your feet and hands. It gets to work and this is the thing. That is just such a, it is such a glory when you do this and the world takes notice. It sees these people are not like me. They don't do the same things I do and they look on and they go. Man, why do they have so much hope? Why do they have so much hope? Where's the joy coming from? Where is it coming from?
Speaker 2:And when we model it, not just say it. It's easy to say it. It's a whole nother thing to live it out, to model it. But when it is modeled, oh man, that's the witness to the world. When they can see even conflict within the community and how that's dealt with, how we can get through these conflicts. We can repent and ask forgiveness and sit down and break bread to one another and that that's actually strengthening the body and it's growing us and we're joyful. We must model a better kingdom and that's what we're inviting people into.
Speaker 1:Well, I love that word from Christ Like the world will know you by the way you love each other and will know me by the way that you love each other, and it's not primarily by the way that you are vehemently opposed to the craziness going on out there. I think even the warning and revelation to the Ephesian church that, like you've been fighting, you've been plotting, you've been, you've been doing all the right things, you oppose false teaching, but then you've forgotten your first love, the love you had at first. And I think in this context, like you, could easily apply that to the love you have for your people. That flows from the love Christ has for us. The feast setting.
Speaker 1:I love this quote too. This is in the two towers, but this is Faramir. Same kind of principle of like warfare, but more. He says. I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. And, man, when you think about the people behind us, the pastoral energy that we pour into people, the hospitality, the pastoral energy that we pour into people, the hospitality I had somebody asked the other day this was in a new member interview and they said you know, is it okay if we like hang out with pastors, like do pastors here like fraternize with the people?
Speaker 1:And I kind of let out a chuckle. I was like what shepherd wouldn't be among his sheep? That's a crazy thought. It is crazy. But to your point. I think there are a lot of listeners. There's a crazy thought. It is crazy, but to your point.
Speaker 1:I think there are a lot of listeners, there's a lot of people. They're out there on the periphery. Maybe you're lonely, maybe you're struggling with like I don't have a tribe, and you listen to the truth of the podcast and you say, yeah, that's true, but then it's different. You come here I think that's why I love the conference they come here and they're like, wow, this is something entirely different when you get to experience it.
Speaker 1:We had a family visiting this week, from New York, I believe, and it was really interesting because I was talking to another guy and he said, yeah, you know, I I tried to get on the list to have them over and they're here for like six days and you know, by the time I got to him, I was quick on the response to the, the app and by the time I got to him, they already had like six days. They already had, like I think it was like eight appointments to have lunch or have dinner with people and I was like man, I love this place, kevin. Oh yeah, these people are unbelievable. Just a desire to share that with other people and to share the table, that's a fervent that's a fervent love.
Speaker 2:That. That's that fervent love that in first Peter for zealous to do good works. Yeah, and it is, oh it, it is. It's just amazing, it's. It's one of my favorite things on the planet is seeing, is seeing that kind of love?
Speaker 1:Yeah, In a world again where people are largely lonely. Kevin, I want to do a couple of things. I want to close with just talking about some of the potential ditches as we pursue hospitality. I do want to let our Patreon listeners know we're going to talk a little bit about the how to's of hospitality in the Patreon exclusive show. So, kevin, I will go into more detail on that. How do you actually do this? What are some strategic ways to think through your schedule? But also, what should a typical hospitality event? What are some of the key principles behind it? So be sure to sign up for Patreon to get exclusive access to that and more content. But, kevin, now ditches.
Speaker 1:I sort of think about this. On the one hand, the one ditch is kind of like Martha Stewart. It's a Martha Stewart type ditch where you're like I have to deep clean my house for a week beforehand. I have to just go into all this preparation and it becomes so laborious, particularly for the lady, that she doesn't actually do hospitality very often because it's such a chore, because there's so much work that goes into it. She's exhausted for a week afterward. That's maybe one ditch. The other ditch I would think of is like going to a home and it is I'm not saying like just like there's some toys strewn about. I'm not, I'm not saying that. But we're talking like filthy, like pigsty hoarders. Hoarders, the food is, like you know, microwavable, iable, I don't know, just not good Little effort has been put into it, so kind of two ditches. Do you agree with those ditches? Have you seen that in kind of real world experience?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, certainly. And I think again, the culture is just, it's catechized us to think in this way of we. You said Martha Stewart hospitality. I think we could also call it Pinterest hospitality. Oh yeah, right, it's flashy, it looks great. But we have to make a distinction there, and this is an important one is that what we are giving people is not worldly entertainment. It's not worldly entertainment. What we are giving people is Christian hospitality, and that is fundamentally different. We are just conduit for God's grace, his mercy, his peace, his love, and we are extending that to one another. So we absolutely we don't want to fall in either ditch of being pig sties and forcing people into our mess, right. And that mess, by the way, could also not just be a physical mess the hoarder house Right, the disgusting pig sty. It could also be, I think, the mess of your own heart, which is another form of mud think, the mess of your own heart, which is another form of mud.
Speaker 1:Well, this is actually the next question I want to ask you, because if you have strife and contention and bitterness and unresolved conflict in your marriage and in your home and among your children, it's not going to be a place you actually want to welcome people into, no, right? So my question is it seems like there's there's even a prior step of like and I would encourage people if you have unresolved conflict, your home is a mess. I would encourage you to talk to your pastor. Yeah Right, talk to your pastor. How do we start piecing this together? I really liked Ken Sandy's peacemaker book, but having a wise guide and wise shepherd to walk you through, how do I start making peace? Little by little? It's kind of like how do I start picking up the messes in the rooms of my house? It might be a deep clean for some people.
Speaker 2:Oh for sure this is going to look like. I don't think anyone's going to escape this. There's going to be repentance that needs to happen in your life Maybe it's in your marriage and repentance towards your children and not disciplining them. Well, because if you have unruly kids, yes, very painful, hospitality is going to be very difficult and I think a lot of people avoid hospitality in those situations.
Speaker 1:Rather, a lot of times they don't know what to do about the conflict, like maybe I have, like you know, six unruly children. It's embarrassing and so I don't want to invite people in. But it's also part of the reason you don't want to invite people in is because you're embarrassed, you know it's a shameful situation, and so it seems like then it's like okay, but don't stay there. Like hospitality is sort of like forcing. You say, yeah, I got some people are going to see it, yeah, so let's address it.
Speaker 2:It's sanctification. You experience this in marriage, you, you get married and you find out. Oh, my goodness, I see this people, person, sin very clearly now and they see my sin very clearly now. But we're in a covenant relationship and we must, we have to repent of these sins. Well, the same thing is true with when we add children to the mix and the same thing is true when we invite others in. We have a mess, we have mud in our house, physical and spiritual, and we must clean up the mess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's really good, I think, because I think it was like Gabe wrench talking about this. Yeah, and it's really good, I think, because I think it was like Gabe wrench talking about this where, like, you have toddlers and you're doing hospitality, you're going to have to do discipline. But Gabe was saying he's like we have a culture where it's like, don't apologize for that, be like oh, I'm so sorry, I need to go take care of this. No, like this is, we're a community where that's taken care of, and so just be, I'll be right back. You know, I've been in your house, this has happened and I've done it and it's like it gets to the point where it's like, yeah, that's what we do, it's not a huge embarrassment, it's not, it's not crazy. You just we have to do this in community with one another.
Speaker 1:I think it's good, too, cause it'll it'll force and I think, hopefully, future conversations we have on the podcast. But it forces other things too. Like people come into your home and you're like, well, okay, do you do family worship? Do your kids know how to sing the doxology? Because these are things that I would encourage people like be doing as part of hospitality, again, letting other people in you're going to experience some one anothering. Exhort one another, encourage one another, pray for one another. One of my personal favorites spur one another on, be a thorn in somebody's flesh. But this is really where the glory of this strong culture has to come from. I don't think you can get quite the same thing, cause if you, if it's all programs and the church is doing all the heavy lifting, you're probably just not going to see the same level of sanctification, growth and the strength of the culture as when you, when your people, actually carrying the weight on that one.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, and so I love this exhortation from Pastor Steve Wilkins. He's talking about? He's talking about having unity and peace, and he says there is peace and unity in a graveyard. There are no arguments and no division. But that is not the peace of the living, it's the emptiness of the dead. That is one of my favorite quotes from the book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 2:This is one of. This is where some of the grumbling comes from. We want peace and unity, but we do not want to have to reconcile with the person. When we are in community, we are going to face one another's sin and we're going to have to do something with it. We are going to have to clean up the mud, and real peace is not found by just interacting less with one another.
Speaker 1:Right, Well, and this was I mean, I found this in a lot of, like, extended family relationships. I've actually talked to people where it's like, yeah, we intentionally don't have much to do with our family just because if we get around them too much there'll be conflict, and so the way that we handle that is we just ignore each other. But this isn't as Steve's pointing out, this is a graveyard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great, it's a dead place. That is not real peace and unity. The peace of the living is those who have learned and been trained by hospitality. They have strengthened their muscles, they've worked out how to deal with sin in their lives. That's real peace, that's real unity. It's not the peace of the dead, it's not the peace of lifelessness. It's the peace of the living. Takes work.
Speaker 1:So, kevin, let me ask you this kind of, as we wrap things up If somebody let's say, we have a listener if somebody is in a church and it's not a stated principle or practice of the church to be hospitable, and you know you don't have it from leadership and they're like we've tried, you know it's very difficult, people just aren't really into that what sort of counsel would you give them? And part of this is how serious of an issue is it Like if a church just says, no, we're not doing this. Is that a big enough issue where you would say, well, you know, we have some decisions to make then about where our family attends, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I would say, if this is first, you just need to obey the command, be hospitable without grumbling. You need to do the work. Whether other people are doing it or not, you model it and try your very best to be a wonderful example of this in your community and just faithfully do it. Faithfully model this and do it joyfully and pour yourself out. If it is just truly something where people they just don't want to do it, I would say it is absolutely an essential part of the church and if no one's on board that tells you a lot about probably tells you a lot about the health of the church overall.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. A church full of eggheads is not a church you're going to be able to stay in for very long.
Speaker 1:Certainly not thrive?
Speaker 2:Oh, certainly not thrive, yes, and so I mean, I think that's one of many things that might cause you to say is this going to be good for the long-term health of my church? And I don't think that should be a thing you should. A knee-jerk reaction oh, I invited one person over. They did not invite me over. It resulted in no fruit. I'm talking about doing this as a regular part of your life. Get your reps in, essentially in the community that you're in, and see what happens. You might be surprised. You might be the catalyst to a growing and wonderful community of hospitality in exactly where you are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think for a lot of people too, I know this made a big difference in our lives, with our people. If there's an area where, yeah, maybe we can grow as a church, it's also the manner in which you know, talk to your pastors. But the manner in which you talk to them, like if you come like, hey, you guys are all idiots, I know what you don't, how come you're so dumb? It's very disrespectful and it's hard for a person in a position of authority to receive that. Well, but if you say, hey, you know, I've been thinking about this, I've been praying about it and studying some scripture, here's kind of some stuff on my mind Like, how are you guys thinking through this? Do you think it's an area we could grow and see where that goes? Cause I think a lot of people, there's a lot of circumstances where it's not that people are just actively going out of their way to say like, no, I don't want to obey scripture, I'm sure there are some of those.
Speaker 1:But for a lot of people maybe it's just a hard thing that hasn't been practiced and maybe that you know some of the pastors would agree. You can read Steve Wilkins book face to face or something you know. Start looking into the scriptures and saying, yeah, maybe we could grow in. And then the other thing I would say if you bring the complaint, be prepared to put your money where your mouth is Right. Don't be complaining about other people not doing something that you're not willing to do and in some sense to lead in Right. Has your home been opened? Because a lot of times this would be the other side.
Speaker 1:We have people even here who will say I've had a hard time getting to know friends, hard time building relationships, and my first question will be do you go to Psalm sing and potluck on Tuesday nights? Do you stay after worship to talk to people, cause there's people here for a long time after service. Kevin, people will talk to you. Uh, do you invite people into your home? When you see new people in church, do you invite them over? And so, wanting to be honest with yourself too and get some feedback from other godly people, in your context, we can say like am I a warm, open person. Do I physically, literally, on my calendar, do I set aside time each week for hospitality? You know, thinking through some of those questions too, as you bring you know concerns or whatever to to the leaders, I think would be a good thing.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely yeah, you, you've got to, you've got to be doing these things first. Don't. Don't be the do not. Be the person who nags and and has all I mean, can point out every flaw in the church and yet is, and yet is not doing the positive thing, has found all the problems but isn't part of none of the solutions. Be the guy, be the woman who is who, who sees the things and go well, I'm going to be part of the solution and get to work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've always found it's better to like if somebody brings a complaint to me. It's always much more positive if they say, hey, I've kind of noticed this thing where maybe we could grow. Here's three potential solutions. Right, that's much better in terms of how to receive it. Oh, yeah, uh, kevin, I kind of want to close just with if you could give sort of an exhortation to our listeners about hospitality in general, and I'm thinking something along the lines kind of what you said in the sermon about, like, as you're concluding, exhort me to this Christian work of hospitality. Why is it important? Why should this be something that we care about? And particularly, I think, okay, hardman podcast, masculinity podcast. Kevin, well, I do think, like, if you're a man who loves your tribe and wants to see Christendom built and you want to see the good fight being fought, this has got to be at the heart of the community and tribe you're building, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let me. Let me lead with a quote from Napoleon. Actually, napoleon, Napoleon. We're on the hard man podcast, that's right, okay. So Napoleon said leaders are dealers in hope.
Speaker 2:Leaders are dealers in hope. So in your community, where you are right now, be a dealer in hope. And the hope that I'd like to point you to and that we've been talking about today is hope of the gospel, the hope of the gospel of fervent love, the hope that if we would just obey the Lord, in simple faithfulness, in loving one another, in dying to ourselves, that we might all. And let us dream on this, let us deal this out to people, let our vision be that we would all end our days in a city, in a city surrounded by our kinsmen, where we all are experiencing, tasting, seeing the fruit of generational hospitality, and in that place Psalm 133.3 says for there the Lord has commanded the blessing life forevermore. Be a dealer in hope, be a dealer in love and gospel fervent love.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. What a great word, kevin. I want to thank you so much for joining me on this episode of the Hard Men podcast, reminding our listeners. You can check us out on Patreon. We have exclusive content, including the Pugilist. A lot of times, me and Pastor Dan Burkholder, we fight the good fight. Kevin, you are two of the most perfect men for that we are two of the most.
Speaker 1:Thank you, I accept the compliment. Uh, that's great. So I encourage you guys to check that out. You can follow the link in the show notes. And until next time, stay frosty, fight the good fight and act like men.