It's a fact: companies that have a purpose beyond profit tend to do better than those that don't. Yet, for many agency founders purpose is an afterthought.
So, how do you find your purpose and, more importantly, how do you put it in to practice?
Si Conroy is a business mentor who works with numerous agency owners helping them to grow successful purpose-led companies.
In this episode he shares some of his secrets and provides practical tips and guidance that will help you to build a business that you love, rather than one that just pays the bills.
It's a fact: companies that have a purpose beyond profit tend to do better than those that don't. Yet, for many agency founders purpose is an afterthought.
So, how do you find your purpose and, more importantly, how do you put it in to practice?
Si Conroy is a business mentor who works with numerous agency owners helping them to grow successful purpose-led companies.
In this episode he shares some of his secrets and provides practical tips and guidance that will help you to build a business that you love, rather than one that just pays the bills.
0:02
JA: Welcome dear listener to another episode of the KitchenTable Community Podcast, and with me today is a man with whom I've worked for a couple of years now. It's Si Conroy. Si is... How would you describe him? How would you describe yourself Si?
0:26
SC: Thanks, John. Nice to be here. I only work with the owners of businesses, owners of agencies. So I described myself as a combination of chairperson non exec coach and mentor, because it's all of those roles that the founders of businesses don't get to access at the stage when they need the most. So, when asked, you know, how I label myself I refer to myself as being the person who helps you grow your business to the level of success that you want it to be. And I tend to leave it at that. Rather than falling into all of the categories.
1:08
JA: Well, what could be more seductive. And as I said you worked with a lot of agencies could you describe that client base in more detail.
SC: Yes, so I like to think of myself as being different, because from a very early stage from when I had my first businesses at university, my – I definitely recognise that an entrepreneurial heart, but found that I became increasingly fascinated in how businesses grow. And what it is structurally – and I had this in a pursuit of Is there a, is there a DNA is a formula for how an agency or a business can grow. I took a slightly circuitous route and I went and trained as a chartered accountant to PwC because I thought that, that may have the answer. And then formulated Scarlet Monday in my early 20s to start to explore what it means to be able to grow businesses and agencies in parallel.
2:10
JA: Scarlet Monday being your company – I should have. I should have mentioned that listener.
2:17
SC: And, but also wanted to always practice what I preach so over the 20 to 25 years of running Scarlet Monday now. I've always run my own businesses in parallel. So, I have a broad mix of both personally invested businesses directly own businesses, and also client businesses and agencies so spanning the whole mix of small kitchen table startup agencies up to one of the largest agencies that I work with, it's got about 70 people, and across all different niches through to the broad basis, and my own investments will tend to be in technology software as a service.
3:09
JA: And you talk about DNA of successful businesses, you've identified that right?
3:17
SC: I think so. The reason why I say I practice what I preach is I have a, I think, a healthy dislike for coaches mentors consultants who walk around talking and not doing. And I found that as in, with lots of things in life. The more experience you have, the more you get to know the more simply realise that actually the answer is. And, you know, going to the, you know, the subject matter of this podcast, actually the one of the core things that is required for business to be successful is for it to absolutely know its purpose, and its mission, and then ensure that it just surround itself with people who are absolutely aligned with that purpose and that mission
JA: And you believe that that is the essentially the, the root of any successful company, you have to work out your purpose and mission before you do anything.
4:22
SC: Erm, I think it can be done in parallel. What I've experienced and the reason why my own mission is to unblock as many entrepreneurial SME leaders as possible, as I said, I only want to work with people who own their own business and therefore are able to make rapid decisions in terms of shifting its direction. The reason why I want to work with those people is for me that they are, you are the bravest people in the world in turning your back on the big corporate blue chip organisations and going off and putting things at entrepreneurial risk, whether it be as a freelancer through to small agency through to the largest agency or a business. And the reason why it's my mission is that, for me, the world's got things a bit topsy turvy, when you read the business magazines or business books. You'd be led to believe that most of the world works for big blue chip organisations and that's just not true. In my world shifted my mission came into focus when you know I read the stat that in the most western countries I think is between 4550 up to 60 70% of people who are of working age, actually work for small medium sized enterprises. And so then suddenly realise that these people who are taking the biggest risks are also hiring, most of the people in the world. And these people are taking the biggest risks. Actually, they have often spotted a, an opportunity for a product or a service fit within a known marketplace. Most people who set up businesses obviously know the market, which they're in, and so they've seen the opportunity. What I saw as being my opportunity for my mission was recognising that these people, however, don't know how to often grow an agency, they don't know how to grow business they know how to deliver a product or a service which fulfils a customer need or want. So, directly to your question. I think that having that true insight into the product or service – fit, need, want – is actually step zero. And it's when you've seen that, then you should as quickly as possible get clear about what your purpose is what your mission is because it's when you engage the heart. As soon as the, the wallet and the profit margins and the ability to be able to invoice somebody for the services and the product that you do is in place that everything really flourishes, and you really start to grow something.
7:00
JA: So, put yourself in the shoes or let's take the case of someone who has just decided –they might have been a freelancer they might have had a staff job – but they've just decided to set up their own agency whatever they that agency might deliver you know might might be purely creative design, whatever it might be tech focused, but they've just decided to make the shift to actually be a business owner, they know what they are good at they know what they're gonna do they know who the market is broadly, but they haven't worked out that purpose. What do they do first of all?
SC: I think, What I recommend going to some quite uncomfortable places. But first, I think that the two things which I always get people to focus on is, first of all, customers, your clients. Whatever you do they want to be part of something bigger than features and benefits. So, there's an absolute desire for you to be more than just the sum of your parts of what you're going to deliver. And it's important to recognise that most of the time, businesses clients , they want you to deliver a what, and they want you to deliver that in a way which is efficient cost effective for them at maximum value, but ultimately they do want to be part of something bigger than just what you do. Brands exists because they have a place in people's hearts rather than just their head.
I think, then the flip side of that. But it may not really be a flip side is this whole sense of it unless you're clear on your kind of cheeks or P shape, then other people can't work out whether it fits with there's so unless as soon as you've got your product service which you want to take to the market unless you start to be clear on what it is that you stand for what it is that you mean, then you're going to struggle to attract people longer term who wants to be part of something bigger and want to fit with you. And I think it's that bit where it's important to see that this is an emotional journey. First, I start with my clients and with my businesses with a something which I call a building blocks of truth, exercise, it sounds a bit kind of Brighton and hippy, but…
9.45
JA: We are we are recording this in Brighton, so Brighton and hippie goes with the territory, literally, and is fine.
9:57
SC: I don’t have sandals with socks on.
JA: I do. I do!
10:01
SC: Fantastic – I didn't even notice that.
JA: But they're but they're quite sleek socks, they're not thick and woolly.
10:07
So anyway… I’m telling you about the building blocks of truth. You'll love it!
So, the building blocks of truth exercise is something which I do to just get people to really be honest. Too often, people go on a, an entrepreneurial freelance journey, without actually being clear about what they want this thing to be longer term. And so if we can have purpose and why to the side for one second. I just get people to use this exercise get a pack or post it. And just think about, what do I have to have in place to be happy in my life, what truths do I want to be true to be in place for me to enjoy every morning that I wake up. And when you ask yourself that question, all of a sudden a lot of the corporate baggage falls away and you start to focus on really important things like freedom and flexibility, creativity, you know things which are often spoken about as being your new ways of working but for me are just fundamental truths. Others have truths which are different people absolutely need to be surrounded with it by others working with others involved in the hustle and bustle growing great businesses, often their truths are around him wanting to really get some money from the thing longer term until typically then I challenge them about what your truths become after that exit point. And then, normally we then get back to a real set of truths around what people want out of their lives with one of my businesses when I applied the same exercise with myself, I realised that in that business I absolutely didn't want to work with anybody I didn't want anyone working for me I wanted to be able to work anywhere in the world. Chose WordPress as a system for all the technologies on which it was you know I built the software. But those were real truths for that business at that point in time, it was really important for me. So, with the building blocks of truth. You go through that exercise until you're exhausted. And then you hold those Post-its as really been the foundation stones for your future success. As soon as you start to see that this thing that you're building is in conflict with the truth, you have to be really honest straightaway about whether you're going to find yourself in two or three years time with this kind of baby/beast that you didn't really want to create in the first place.
12:56
And for me, there's just too much talk about kind of this whole sense of work life balance and business and non-business. You know, it's critical to balance the two things but for people like her as you know we we are capable of cloning ourselves we are one in the same name person. And so unless we're fully reconciled with the truth that we want to be true, then we're often going to set ourselves up on quite rocky foundations. An even more challenging way of reaching that point or one to be done in parallel. I often get people to think about what it would feel like to be sat on the back row of their own funeral.
13:52
And if they were listening to all of the people that they love in the world, giving the eulogies, what would you want those eulogies to be. Now, in five years and then 10 years, however long your timescales are, because that when sat next to the trees, often strips away a lot of rubbish that you really thought you wanted, and gives you a fantastic foundation stones for real purpose.
14.17
JA: Yeah, well I know I know in my own journey you know one of the things, or the key thing I want it to be was to be a good parent. And I've therefore, fashioned my business around flexibility around that freedom to have time with children when I can and to be there for them whenever possible. And I know that a lot of kitchen table agency owners, share similar motivation. But then you need to wear that inside out and how to go about that process – in building a business shaped around your own truths.
15:00
SC: And I think that's. For me, I think that's when it gets into. You really exploring the, I suppose the steps to identifying your own purpose, if I said that step zero was actually having something that people need or want to buy, and you can make a good margin from it, and that's you know that's a whole other conversation because the number of businesses that I work with, fallen over that fundamental point, they weren't deep enough into their industry or their area. To actually recognise what the nuances are of how money is made, or how people want to pay for services that often, tried to build things on incredibly shaky territory. But assuming that stage zero is in place, and you've gone through the process of being true to yourself about what you want to be. I think that that's when you can start to ask yourself a higher level, types of purpose questions to start to work out, going back to the eulogy example. You know, people will go through and often will want to have been seen as being the good parent, the good child. The good friend. But when you push them further about all close to a mark on the world or legacy identity the universe as much as those questions can be pilloried. Yeah, certain people do want out, they do want to leave a legacy, they do want to right or wrong. And I think that that's when you can start to turn the truth inside out because then you have your step zero of something that people are willing to pay for your building it on a set of foundations which are true to use you know that in years to come. You won't have gone wrong. And then you can start to really have fun by kind of turning up the dials on the things that you want to be true for you and for your business. And I think that, you know, What I. The reason why I work all the way through from what I consider to be micro businesses kitchen table entrepreneurs all the way through to people who end up running, you know, multi thousand people organisations but still remain in control of it is because the success, I see as being on exactly the same spectrum is the people who are absolutely clear on what they want to do what they want to be what they want to stand for what is wrong. And so all of my methodologies that I've put in place for helping people pull together to help people to understand their, or get to their purpose why and mission, are all about surfacing the things that they want to turn up from those foundations
JA: And must always be expressed in a business's output, or can it be about how, how they do business rather than what they do.
18:17
I set myself up and I think you tended it, I set myself, the challenge. As I built up my framework of business tools over the years, purpose why and mission was the, the final remaining area that I was stuck with, because for me I always want to try and find at least toolkits of frameworks and methodologies which people can apply. And so within that question itself that you just asked is the heart of a lot of the problem. People use the terms, kind of interchangeably. And don't recognise that a purpose, or a y can often be unspoken it can be held in the heart, and it can drive a lot of the actions, whereas the mission of a business is often more surface more clear we may not be on the kind of the hero headline on the homepage. But it's definitely something which will be seen through everything that the business does. Because, I mean just to let you know how I ended up accidentally unlocking it it was in the early hours before I gave the talk on how to find purpose why and mission that I happened to put in those terms into Google Images. And what's fascinating is, you know, Google Images shows that mankind can only reflect purpose and why, in the abstract, whereas as soon as you put in mission. It shows people working together to do things, whether that's you know from a military perspective or just you know in the truest sense of being a missionary. And that was what enabled things to click for me.
20:10
You can have a sense of a purpose and a why, but you have to be absolutely clear on your mission, and what you're going to do.
20:20
JA: There's a lot of talk about culture in business. As an adjunct of purpose. How do the two work in tandem and what is what is their relationship?
SC: I think it's a very explicit relationship. I think of culture as being a product of beliefs plus behaviours. You behave according to your beliefs. And so, if an organisation, if an individual isn't clear about what they believe. Then they can't in any way see the behaviours which are associated with those beliefs in the people that are looking to hire and the people that are looking to work with.
21:15
And when you look at, beliefs, they're such a small step away from purpose and why that for me the two are interchangeable. You, you have to you have to articulate your purpose, or your why. You have to articulate, you know, asking yourself the questions of, you know, who do you love. Who's your enemy. Me I asked questions around you if I was a billionaire I would if I had a year left to live, I would.
21:50
The Great guy who's no longer in Brighton, but still accessible called Charles Davies, who created this great thing called a Why How What Ladder, where he enables you to get to Why – your purpose – by asking what you do. And then when you say what you do, you just ask a simple question why, for what purpose do you do that, and you keep on asking that question over and over until you get to the same point that most humans do. And it's something to do with helping humanity, be a better version of itself. So you can then go back down the ladder by saying no for what you do, how by what means do you do that, and then you get all the way down to hopefully that ground zero point of this thing where people are willing to pay money for in terms of the product or the service that you do. So, when you've used that tool to find your purpose, then your culture comes critically from then saying, Well, if we're on this. If this is our purposes or why, and we're going to define our mission to be able to achieve that. Then what do we need to believe.
23:01
Because it's the beliefs, which are critical. Then it's when you've codified those beliefs when you've articulated them as an organisation and hopefully, you know, whether it's you, whether it's your team of other freelancers that you collect collaborate with other people within your ecosystem, just going through that process of articulating what it is that you believe can then enable you to maintain your culture, longer term. Because the thing that you're actually controlling are the behaviours, which associate with the beliefs. I think it's a it's a complete cul-de-sac for organisations to try and manage and control their culture, it's not a thing.
23:48
It's like waking up in the morning and trying to remember a dream. The harder you try, the less likely you are to be able to achieve it, and I've been fortunate enough to build organisations where you know we've been able to throw everything at the team when it came to the things which we thought would drive culture in terms of fußball, you know, 20% time free working, you know, best in market pay and still people are unhappy, until you give them a purpose.
24:20
There's some great work done with you've ever read a book called Drive by Dan Pink
JA: Yeah, it's fantastic book, everybody listening should read it.
SC: Yeah, and in Drive he articulates that the, the main three levers of motivation are autonomy within clear accountabilities, the mastery the ability to be able to continue to develop and purpose above profit, you know, unless you've got that purpose. Then fundamentally your people aren't going to be motivated. So the reason why I said, the culture and purpose are intimately connected via the beliefs, unless you're clear on your purpose unless you then align that with what you believe, then you're not going to get people who believe what you believe working for you.
25:14
JA: So, the people who work for you. It has to be articulated to them. Clearly, right.
SC: Yeah.
25:24
Through a written culture document?
25:28
SC: Well, it's the again the Amy was warned you about my use of kind of tools and frameworks, but he. The only way in which I've ever been able to really manage culture longer term is to have a moment to moment in time where either you as an individual or as I say you the people that work with you. As you know, there's a team of you.
25:59
And again with a pack of posters I do promise you the only two times that I ever use post its and everything that I do pretty much but the, you know, you sit down with the post at some you know I just give people 10 minutes to write down what they believe.
26:17
Typically the immediate questions come back with. What are you talking about you're talking about what I believe in terms of work. What are you talking about, personally, and that's when I kind of shrug and say, can you separate out those two things. The reason why I talk about beliefs rather than values which for me can be picked up and adopted and dropped again at the end of the day is beliefs, go to your heart. And so as soon as you get people to write down what they believe they will often be very truthful about what is important for them. And then after that 10 minutes is up I get people to go into pairs, and then they have 10 minutes to come up with a shared set of beliefs, and then the pairs go into fours, and so it goes on until you come up with a set of statements, I've had as few as six or seven. I've had as many as 30.
27:15
But these are lists of beliefs, things which are believed by the individuals within the organisation. What’s fascinating when you then look at all of those, if you look at any behaviour, which takes place within an organisation within your ecosystem of suppliers client relationships, etc. which you feel viscerally, you know, provokes emotion, makes you angry frustrates you, you will often be able to then go back to your list of beliefs and say, actually, that behaviour which I feel so physically is in contradiction contravention to that belief. And so the reason why I said, guess you can try and write a culture document you can try and pay for this thing called culture of this slide, some of the dogs in the office etc etc but it's none of those things. It's starting with the truth and being clear about what you believe and having a purpose, and then articulating that if you can share that with people via the process that I described and that's fantastic. If it is just you, then do exactly the same process. But, you know, think about sharing that with the people that you're going to work with, because it's Sinek in his book Start With Why.
JA: Simon Sinek?
28:38
SC: Yes, it's such a fantastic phrase where he says, over and over again you only work with people who believe what you believe. You only hire people who believe what you believe, happens suppliers suppliers, customers. And so you have to be explicit about those beliefs.
JA: we think of the beliefs that drive purpose as being essentially moral. The purpose being moral. Need it be?
29:09
SC: No, I don't know, I don't think that it necessarily has to be. I think that there can be very subtle purposes about how things are done differently to how they're done. Currently. The reason why I described the truths, as being the stage after you've been clear about the product or service that people are willing to pay for, and then rapidly moving into the purposes very often when you look at the things which are required to create it, purpose, you, you have to be looking at what already exists, and being clear about how you want things to be done differently. I don't think that they necessarily have to be done on a moral compass or by a moral compass, but can often be brought back to things being done in a better way way which extracts in a more value for everybody has less impact in the world, etc etc.
30:18
But I think it's important to go through the steps quite systematically because of how emotional this whole subject area is. And the reason why I've spent so long, trying to deconstruct it in the early stages of my career is the thing which I saw in the consultancies in other management thinkers spending weeks and months on and you know, charging 10s of thousands of pounds for something which is in somebody's heart, requires more kind of stillness and just a methodology to come out.
30:57
JA: And so, you found a company, you know found its, its purpose, established its culture
is wearing that inside out and the way it does business. How does it sustain that?
31:39
SC: It's, it's a spot on question, I think, not wanting to repeat everything, often the ones which do get left do get forgotten do end up just being things written on a wall or in a pack that nobody opens up are the ones which have been founded in the wrong way. They've not people haven't gone to a roar enough emotionally enough place to be really honest about what they want, because when you've unlocked that and you are clear that this vehicle of your business is going to be the thing which is going to be delivering this purpose, then you know he will never die.
32:22
But in recognising that if you have got it established if you have got it put into place correctly.
32:28
Then, for me it's about both embedding and reminding so embedding for me means that you make sure that the title, the beliefs and the behaviours are used at every single stage of the business. So, you know, from your your your ads which go out for either freelance support or to hire people, all the way through to the onboarding training feedback, personal development in when I was talking about this sense of viscerally feeling wronged by people. It is this sense of always going back to this beliefs document or Manifesto, which absolutely has broken down what it is that you believe in your purpose and your why. And then you use it, and it's the it's the reason why you can't see it but I'm here kind of holding my chest is the reason for that is that the, the clearest signal, which I see over and over again as I sit with clients and sit within my own businesses. You know, we should be talking about far more important impactful things from a pure financial P&L perspective, but we're not those creatures we're humans and actually the things which hitters in the chest and the heart are when people don't work in line with what we believe they're the people who you know are outside of the cultural mix or they're the real struggles and so you know we have to recognise that actually we're quite simple creatures. So, as well as making sure that the beliefs are referenced at every single stage of you operating in the business where, you know, emotions and people are involved but it's a continual framework and that's a critical thing you continually drawing people back to those beliefs, then you've actually, contrary to the cultural artefact type of thing where I was talking about bean bags and dogs in the office and slides, the beliefs are for me, one of the things which you should make a show of, you know, if possible, you should look at people who best typify or represent those beliefs and give them awards, you should try and put them up onto the walls get them printed onto the mugs in the screensavers. I mean the number of different variants that I've had in businesses is fantastic, but it's all about making sure that continually people are thinking about not what it is that they're doing, because what you described about, you know, when you're there hitting the deadlines and getting the invoices out, you're talking about the Whats. When you think about the How you do things within the sense of, am I delivering quality to time, etc etc. But it's actually the truth of the how you're doing it is all behavioural, it's all of those nuances and unless you're getting people continually having it brought back to them over and over again. This is how we do things in this business, this is what we believe and therefore this is how we behave, if you're not going to have that culture which exists without you. And so, you know it's it's all of those mechanics, which I find that by bringing it back to people's attention, really begins to make them think this is what it means. And then, when you introduce things like having in my businesses every second interviews actually held by the team. There are no managers involved in those and that team just asks belief-based interview questions as an organisation we believe this, can you tell me about a time when you've acted in this way. And then exploring those things because I don't want them somebody's hiring process to get anywhere past that stage, if they don't believe what the organisation, believes.
36.44
JA: If you're a kitchen table agency, and you are hiring only freelancers on an ad hoc basis, obviously you can't go through that process but you have to be sure that people will play by your rules right?
SC: I challenge you and say why can't they go through that process. Why can't you interview people based on your beliefs. Why don't you interview clients, based on your beliefs, because as I said at the start. The problem. I think we're in particularly in the world of agency is you can hang your hat on, being able to do something uniquely different create some new technology, but often that absolutely isn't the case, you know you are doing the same things as other people are doing. So you then begin to question What is the secret sauce. And I would say if I look at all of the businesses that I've worked with the ones that are most successful regardless of how competitive the market is, is they're the ones who are absolutely clear on what they stand for it may be spiking gritty, but people like spiking gritty, they like, understanding the shape of someone something. And I think that unless you apply it to all of the people and it's the reason why I'm using that word of kind of ecosystem quite carefully. Unless you apply it to everybody unless you wear your heart on your sleeve about what you believe.
38:24
Then you're going to end up diluting yourself because you are going to be working with others who are going to be associated with your brand.
38:33
JA: Could you give us some examples of companies you've worked with and you don't have to name them, that have got this right.
38:44
Probably one of the most impressive examples was an organisation which is an agency but on the recruitment side of things, but it had chosen to move into market, which at the time was relatively leading edge to his data insights AI, but by the nature of the people that he was hiring. Similarly to account seal professional services recruitment agencies, they had to hire recruiters who could talk their language could understand the nuances. And so, they were effectively going out to market at an incredibly difficult time, and it was in this whole new area developing.
39:35
And they had to start to hire highly skilled graduates and train them how to become recruiters recognising that these people were probably going to be snapped up by the very people who really were looking to recruit for. In some cases within months.
39:53
And what they did was they they were actually an example where I said that they came up with 30 beliefs because what they created was effectively a beliefs and behaviours framework that people were, you can argue inculcated into, but very rapidly.
40:01
And they put in place, all of the mechanics, you know, they had people who had to log into your system you had to name one of the beliefs and they would rotate every time they got the, the tea and coffee mugs printed out with all of the different beliefs and as soon as people saw people behaving in line with those beliefs that teas or coffees were made for them. So effectively lose this rapid feedback mechanism, about how people were behaving in line with the beliefs, and they you know they went as hardcore as extracting I think it was about eight or nine of their beliefs, and they got their clients sign up to those manifestos, and they wouldn't work with people who didn't believe those things which were in line with their purpose.
41:03
JA: Interesting. So they were actually imposing their conditions on a client right and then vice versa.
SC: Yeah, and that's what I see happening for for businesses that have truly grounded themselves in their true to clear on that purpose, and a lot of code if I defy the beliefs in the behaviour structure. They can't help doing that, even when it comes to other businesses, think of as being their sales pitch or their credentials. They know they are just the what, it's actually the How is the beliefs, it's the nuances is the things which the,
the, the agency for the, the entrepreneur is unwilling to ever allow to be broken again. And I think that that's the thing which drives success, rather than mediocrity was just about pays the bills and just about give somebody freedom. They are quite forceful about the change because with those businesses, they do want to see their purpose, being fulfilled in the world that he walked me that down, they weren't proud of their own eulogy
42:28
JA: proud of your own eulogy. Death the perfect place to end the podcast, and indeed, end life. Si Conroy of Scarlet Monday, thank you very much for joining us and for talking about purpose.
43:29
SC: Thank you for having me, John.
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