Episode 4: Wellbeing tips for small agency owners – featuring Matthew Knight

Having your own agency is great – most of the time. But being self-employed isn’t always easy. So, how do you look after yourself? And what should you be doing to protect the wellbeing of your freelance employees? 

Matthew Knight founded an self-help community called Leapers, which is dedicated to and he runs an organisation called Leapers, which is dedicated to supporting the mental health of freelancers and the self-employed.

In this episode he shares practical advice on navigating the challenges of self employment.

Transcript

0:07

JA: welcome to the latest edition of the kitchen table community podcast. Today we're going to look not at the nitty gritty of running a small agency, but something much more important. And that subject is your wellbeing. Having an agency is great. Most of the time, but being self employed isn't always easy. So, how do you look after yourself? Joining me today during the coronavirus lockdown is someone who knows more than most about wellbeing. His name is Matthew Knight, and he runs an organisation called leapers, which is dedicated to the wellbeing of the self employed. Matthew Welcome. 

MK: Hi, how are you? 

JA: Pretty well under the circumstances locked down but reasonably happy with excellent pleased to report. How are you?

MK: I'm good, actually. Yeah, the sun is shining I'm not normally a huge fan of heat. But I'm enjoying the nice breeze coming through. And yeah actually finding lockdown a little bit easier now I think things are starting to settle into place and figuring out how to make the most of the situation rather than continuing to hold my breath to see when it goes all the way.

 1:27

JA: Good, well that's good to hear. Could you tell us about yourself and how you got interested in this subject of wellbeing?

MK: Yeah, absolutely. So my name is Matthew Knight, start this up. And I yeah run a project called Leapers which is a community focused on, on really doing. I think two things, you know, raising awareness, first of all, of how important mental health is for the self employed and secondarily providing some of that support because many people who are self employed or working by themselves. They don't have a team to turn to or people to say hey how you doing or make them a cup of tea. And it can be quite a challenging existence, even if you thrive, by spending time for yourself. Perhaps you're an introvert or you enjoy having that had downtime. You can still feel quite isolating when you don't have somebody that you can turn to and have a conversation about things. And that was ultimately the insight that the leap was, was born out of there's a, you know, ever increasing numbers of people turning to freelancing or self employment starting small businesses startups, people returning to work and finding themselves not able to do a full time job around, around perhaps being a carer or parent, wanting a multitude of jobs or even just remote working. And whilst there are lots of people writing and talking and posting about how to run a business and you know how to get your branding right and your product and focus on your audience and, you know, accounting and tax and all those kinds of the operations of running a business with very few people talking about the emotional experience. And we started a Slack channel which is just a free technology platform that allows you to have a chat with other people, not dissimilar to WhatsApp groups really, and the experience was actually the most people were sharing their that the human experience the emotional experience of working differently. And over the last two three years we've just doubled down on and focused on asking, really simple questions like How are you doing, and what are the experiences that you're going through. So, first of all others can can share in that experience hear other people's stories and and hopefully realise our guys not just me, this is, this is a part of the experience of being self employed, but also trying to raise awareness for others so the businesses who hire us the organisations that we work with that some of their behaviours have a direct impact on our wellbeing of that'd be late payments or zero communication, and that ultimately has an effect on the quality of work which they're getting from us. 

JA: Now, you've developed this really interesting concept called active design for the self employed. Could you explain what that's about? 

MK: Yeah, it very much comes from the kind of treadmill that work can be for a lot of people, you know if you're in a, in a job job traditional employment you quite often go from job, a to job B and the, the trigger to move from A to B is often I'm fed up in current job or I didn't get the pay rise I wanted or my progression is not going or I want to go and do other things. And then you'll look for something else, and move to that or something else will come along and you'll move to it, and, and you just go from from project to project, and it's quite rare that we just sit back and take a moment to reflect on actually well how do I want to work, not, not just what work do I want to be doing and who do I want to work forum with. But how do I want to work. And, and it is a completely different approach to just being presented a way of working, you get a new contract and it says you'll be in an office from nine to five Monday to Friday, active design is very much about well actually, how do I need to work, what are the things that already are in place that I can't change or I can't move, perhaps, that is being a carer or a parent. Perhaps it is what the client needs are you know that the office demands that I be there on certain days. Then what are the what are the ways in which I want to work do I want to be remote do I want to be in office do I want to mix that up a little bit, do I want to only work in the summer and do things in the winter, and try and bring all those things together and actually look at the different aspects of what your working life looks like rather than just accepting the fait accompli, and I think work at the moment has this really binary state you're either in a job, or you're self employed and actually there's a whole raft of variations and Shades of Grey between those two things. And by actively sitting down and thinking about how you want it to work rather than just accepting something that's provided to you. It means we can wait Make Work, Work harder for us. 

JA: And part of the design process must involve your finances. 

MK: Absolutely. 

JA: And you're a great advocate of financial planning Could you describe some of the pitfalls that the self employed fall into and how you might avoid those? 

MK: You know I'm not a great advocate at all. I'm probably the worst person to speak to because I don't do any good financial planning.

 6:56

JA: And I think what you do advocate it for others. 

MK: Yeah, exactly. I mean, you kind of preach rather than do I think a lot of time but but what are the reasons why is it so important is because I'm really bad at it, it creates a huge anxiety for me and it is one of the most significant stressors, not just for the self employed but for British people at large financial wellbeing a financial health. Absolutely intertwined with mental health and wellbeing. And I don't think we generally as a culture, people don't have it have a good relationship with money, find it very easy or comfortable to talk about it. Don't really know how to price very well or, you know, put put kind of financial figures against our value, and can quite often intertwine it with personal value as opposed to just you know professional offering. So it's really important to to get the financial side of stuff even if you find it hard nailed, and actually look not just what am I doing this month what my invoice is looking like, how much do I need to turn over this month but but think ahead, you know what, what does the next three months look like, what does the next 12 months to three years look like do I need to be putting money aside for obviously things like taxes is absolutely critical, but also pensions, tiny proportions if you're self employed have a have a pension scheme or some sort of plan for retirement. What about starting a family and as we're seeing at the moment What about when crisis happens and work just disappears things that are out of your control. And it's, it's very easy to only think about those things when, when there is a crisis or a trigger. But what what we advocate for I think is is that planning ahead and thinking ahead and saying, not just, “What's my income this week?” but, “What are the things that I might need to plan and think ahead a bit.” 

08:51

JA: What are your tips and suggestions to people, for the enhancement, preservation of their mental health?

MK: Ah that's a great question. I mean I think the first thing to probably talk about is, is just considering it. I mean, mental health and physical health are absolutely. I have the same yeah we will have physical health, we will have mental health, some of us are less healthy than others, and that that health fluctuates if you eat too much cake and don't exercise enough you're gonna get fat, or worse, heart disease, um, yeah and equally, if you don't look after your, your mental wellbeing. You'll fall into poor mental health. And whilst we all know the numbers around. One in four people will struggle with poor mental health at some point in their life and lots of conversation around mental illness which is, which is a different thing. Again, where we actually focus is is making sure that the three and four who haven't ever struggled with poor mental health and are thinking about it as well because if you haven't ever had any sort of challenges. You don't know what to look out for you don't often know what the symptoms of stress or anxiety, are, and you might chop them up to something else, and that's that's when it gets a little bit worrying I was having a conversation with somebody a couple of months ago and he said to me, “I don't, I don't have time to be worrying about my mental health I'm too stressed.” It was just you know it's a perfect illustration of the point that actually, there was a risk of talking about mental health, mental health, you know, capital M capital H, when actually this is about, you know, being able to work, and being able to work well and maintain good working practices. So, you know, if you are getting distracted a lot if you can't focus if you're losing motivation if you get easily frustrated, they can all be signs of poor mental health. Certainly linked to it. And often, it isn't things like, you know, yoga and meditation and free fruit on a Friday in the office you know there's the things which a lot of organisations, use as sticking plasters I think to protect their employees mental health, those, those are things to try and tackle when you're already in a, in a state of high stress, the things which really work most effectively are the basics, you know, looking after your, your physical health so exercising and eating well and sleeping well and taking rest, putting boundaries in place so that you're not working 24 hours a day, making sure you can't, you know you're speaking with people. And, and and your behaviours. You know, if, if there was one thing which I could do to fix employee, mental health, it will be helpful the organization's stopped running their employees into the ground. That's what's causing stress. You know, lack of communication and kind of late hours and, you know, poor management practices not not the fact that they're not meditating, so I think it's about getting the absolute basics right, and just having really good behaviours.

12:08

JA: You talked about meditation then, which is very popular these days. Are you an advocate of it?

 12:18

MK: I am, I'm definitely an advocate of it, I, it depends on how you define it, I think, meditation for a lot of people can even just the word can put people off, I think, yes, these connotations to, you know, sitting cross legged and oming and human being sort of Buddhist technique and I think for a lot of people. If we step outside of the London m 25, white collar worker bubble, for a bit. That's a bit you know a bit too hippy a bit too. It's not very practical. I'm trying to run my business like taking half an hour to clear my mind is not what I need right now I need to chase some invoices. So I think if you think about meditation as as reflection. Just taking some time and space and allowing yourself to reflect on things that are happening right now. Not necessarily getting caught up in them and reacting to them but just giving yourself that that time to reflect and then choosing how you're going to respond to them so rather than reacting in the moment but giving some time and space, then yes I'm a huge, huge fan of that practice of just making sure that you are thinking about what your work is not just doing the work. I love this was his phrase, kind of, you know, spend, spend more time on your business rather than in your business, which I think it's a really nice distinction that said meditation as a practice you know giving yourself, you know half an hour to to do body scans or just kind of relax IV practices, really, really powerful it can be, I think it's hard thing to start, certainly with a lot of people will have racing minds and it's frustrating for that. But if you give it a bit of time and give yourself a bit of a break. Don't be so hard on yourself. You know you're not going to have a clear mind that's not the point of meditation either it's not about having a clear mind it's about letting those thoughts come and go, then actually it can be it can really help for for for stress and anxiety, but also helping you to reach new creative ideas and and connect with yourself on a different level.

 14:29

JA: What about when difficult situations arise I mean being self employed can be stressful and there can, there can be a sort of constant background stress for many people. Yeah, what about when the shit hits the fan, and something bad has happened. Do you have any because it happens to all of us right at some point. Yeah. Do you have any suggestions for what people should do in those circumstances?

14:58

MK: I think I mean it's so subjective right different people deal with those sorts of situations in different ways and need different types of support. And I think that's the that's the main recommendation is when those things happen. Just take a note of how you're feeling and how you're responding to it. And then when you're trying different techniques to to cope with it or build resilience to it. Try different stuff. And if, and if one technique doesn't work, then that's okay try another technique. I've recently discovered that when I am feeling really stressed about something. I think everybody knows it's a good, good idea to talk to others about it, but I would always get really frustrated if somebody would immediately give me the answer, or the solution or provide some sort of advice. And it would make me stop wanting to share and

15:51

I was in a situation a couple of weeks ago where I was feeling really low. And I just texted a whole bunch of friends to just say I'm just, you know, feeling rubbish at the moment. And I think out of the six people who I messaged every single one of them gave me some sort of tip or technique or solution or advice of how to get out of feeling like that. And the one person who who didn't give me advice. Basically just said, Oh, yeah, I'm sorry that sucks I feel like that at times as well, it's rubbish. And actually that was all I needed in that moment was just to be heard, rather than to be told, you should be doing this or you should be doing that, because for me that makes it. It doubles down and makes it feel like I'm doing something wrong. So I think it's really about actually being aware of how those situations make you feel, and then trying different techniques. The other thing which I'd also say is journaling, writing stuff down. And this is about a teenage diary going, “Oh god really love Craig it's amazing!” but rather than reacting to feelings in the moment, writing stuff down, and giving your brain some space and time to just think about it and then go back to maybe the following day, or even just an hour later, reading it back, there's something very different about having a thought spinning around in your head, and actually writing it tangibly down, because sometimes you read it back and go. Actually, what I've written down there is that there's a lot of superlatives and a lot of emotion rather than the rational truth and coming back to it later can just give you a little bit of a clearer head, and it also helps you to look at those sorts of things over time, you know, are those moments happening frequently, then you probably need to have a look at that is it always with one particular client, then maybe you need to have a look at that relationship or was it just one moment in a yo of actually everything being fine and it was just a bit of a wobble. And it can be really hard when we're working on our own to do those little performance reviews or to do those years make those little observations because we don't have anyone else going, Hey, actually you know you've done a ride this week. So externalising that a little bit helps. And the third thing is build a team. It doesn't mean hiring people, but but having a team of people who you can talk to and connect to and making that team cross functional. So, maybe there's somebody on the team who is great at listening without advice, maybe there's someone who is really good at giving advice, maybe you're not so strong of a sales but you're just a creative person but you're, you're poor on the pitching and the commercial side of stuff, who's the person on your team that can give you some feedback and a proposal or just kind of challenge your thinking in some way. And I think those those informal support networks which you can build up, or even formalise them through mentoring, or kind of creating partners in your business, but making sure that you're not doing it alone, even though you're working for yourself that doesn't mean that you have to take all of the responsibility individually. 

19:00

JA: I mean it strikes me that one of the biggest pitfalls into which we fall is maintaining the hope that once we have our own business, that everything is going to be okay.

And everything's not okay is it. Everything's not okay, all of the time. I mean if you, if you can get by with a few stressful interludes each year, you're doing really well. 

MK: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I guess I would have challenged the word hope, a little bit, because it's not about hope I mean just hoping in its own right, is not gonna get you anywhere. And I know when I've had long periods without paid work, a lot of the time people just like, oh, it'll be fine. don't worry always comes out and like just doing nothing and having your fingers crossed is not an effective strategy, and you're running a business and I think there's, I, you know, large numbers of people who, who jump into self employment or freelancing without really making that mental distinction that they are, they are running their own business now that matters. It means you need to have a business plan, it needs to have, you need to have business continuity in place, it means you need to have some sort of resilience plan and contingency planning and and you know put those things in place when the sun is shining where work is around because then when work isn't around, then at least you've got something to fall back on and you're feeling less in crisis mode because you've, you've designed for it. But yeah, ultimately its ups and downs and if you think you are doing absolutely fine all of the time you're probably in denial and something's leaking somewhere. And those plans you talk about they needn't be complex right because you know, I think people get intimidated by terms like contingency planning and so on but it needn't be complex. No, exactly and and it doesn't need to be this big document which you take weeks to do it can be as simple as, you know, spend 15 minutes a week, a month, even just on one theme and and think about what you might do you don't even need to have the answer just starting with some really good questions is a good place, because that's when you can talk to others and use networks of other small business owners or freelancers and say hey, you know, I'm thinking around this at the moment, how have other people dealt with it, but it's, it can absolutely feel daunting I think breaking it down into small little tasks, a little bit every week in the same way you know you you put some time aside to do your invoicing right. Then what's what what time are you putting aside to invest in your business and your own wellbeing that I think if it takes you. an hour to do your invoices every month and at the very least you can do as an hour for that sort of thinking ahead and investing in your own organisation. You talk about the importance of routines Could you expand on them. Yes, I hate routines. That is another example of criticism, big hypocritical. Yeah, so, so Well, I think this is probably a bit of a paradox I think a lot of people want to move into self employment and freelancing for an increased amount of control that they have over how they were where they work what sort of work they're doing. And as we know that the reality can often be far from that I think in lots of ways. You have far less control, and you don't just have one boss anymore You have five 610 you know however your client structure is set up. But suddenly your, your time is less in control. In on your own plate because you've got somebody emailing you got somebody kind of asking you for a proposal you there's often this feeling of having to need to respond really quickly, and it can be very easy to find ourselves when we're working on our own businesses, working late into the night, really early mornings weekends bank holidays and not giving ourselves, any time to rest or or recuperate, which ultimately is a, you know, leads to burnout and is not a positive thing. So putting some sort of light structure and routines in place just helps us remember that there does need to be some sort of start and end to where we work, especially if we're working from home to create a bit of a mental limit between okay I'm at work, and now I'm at home and there's a, there's a boundary there, which I respect for myself. Well then anybody else. And I think in isolation as well. You know this isn't necessarily a COVID thing or perhaps it's more of a kind of working away from others but when we're in a physical shared environment with others, they're all these little kind of micro

 23:54 

interactions which remind you to do certain things like, Oh, you know someone's making a cup of tea. I'm going to have a cup of tea as well or someone's going for lunch. I'm going to have lunch, as well, or an email comes round about a training course, or it's that time of year where pay reviews are happening. And when you're working for yourself often those little triggers those little moments, don't exist. So, it can sound really clunky clunky but even having something in your calendar at three o'clock, which says a cup of tea. Or call somebody or every three months, you know, what's my training plan for the next 12 months or putting some sort of light structure and light reminders that just go Hey, nobody else is going to nudge you to us, you have to nudge yourself, and it can feel odd. To start off with, because it feels so artificial. But over time, we will know that company in 30 days to establish habits sort of thing you know over time those things have become a little bit more natural than your, your brain does that job rather than your Google Calendar. But I think having some light structures to remind you and force you at times to do some of those things is critical. I'm also an advocate of the commute. I don't know if this is controversial. Yeah, I think, I, I think, not travelling and being on a tin can with other people bit. But this solid block of time at the start of the day and the end of the day where you can do something I think is really powerful right you know the average commute in London is an hour and 10 minutes, which is crazy amount of time but even just half an hour in the morning, we'd like okay now I'm gonna listen to that podcast I'm gonna read a bit the book or I'm gonna do my business plan or whatever it might be. That is the definition between home and work, and equally at the end of the day, right, I'm putting my tools down now that's 20 minutes of meditation or a podcast or learning a new language or do nothing. Watch your neighbours when you get home. I think that that sort of mental commute is is a really powerful technique to put those boundaries in place.

25:58

JA: Which you can do, even if you're working from home. Right?

MK: Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, my commute at the moment is obviously from my bedroom to my kitchen, which is approximately 45 seconds. But the but the routine that I've got in place now is, I'll come downstairs. I will feed the cat. I'll put the kettle on, make a cup of coffee. I won't check my email. I will write something. Usually might be an article or a kind of piece of work that I need to get out of my head and onto paper, and I'll do that as my little transition between home and work, because I like doing that with a cup of coffee and just kind of doing into my mobile rather than my laptop. And then I can sit down and start the work day. And that isn't physically moving at all but it's it's become a routine and a habit and when it doesn't happen I feel a little bit discombobulated. 

JA: You talk about little worries, and little wins. Explain about that a bit more. 

27:07

MK: Yeah. So, one of the channels in Leapers is called Little wins.

JA: And this is in your Slack group and it’s a channel called Little wins.

 27:19

MK: Little wins. So the way that slack works is it's basically like a series of different rooms that you can go into. And each one can be themed or it can be for a certain purpose and we've broken down our channels into a number of different areas so one of them is called a lounge where everyone could just like hang out and say how you doing and share what they're up to that moment, one, one room is called a scanner think where I think the title gives it away, um, we've got a room called work well which is where people share form score which is from one to 10 of how they're feeling emotionally and people are giving support and we've got online counselling support in there as well. For people have really low scores and and my favourite channel, I think about having a favourite child I probably shouldn't do it, but it is called Little wins and and it's this really simple idea of sharing the small things the small successes and achievements that we have, as well as the big ones. So, it can be as small as, this is not you know have won a million dollar project or, you know, just ship this piece of software to critical acclaim. It's, it's those things but it's more importantly, oh yeah, actually I took a took a lunch break, or somebody gave me some fantastic feedback, or I got my tax return done before HMRC sent me the reminder letter. Oh, I'm feeling great today, and it's it's good. Everything from from large to small, and it's it's, quote, scientifically proven that when you do share those accomplishments that it helps you identify when you are having more accomplishments, it helps you feel better when you're getting reassurance from others and everyone's going yeah that's awesome because it just feels great. But when you are struggling and times don't feel as good you can look back at that little channel and go. Actually, you know what this month. Even though I might not have been working while I've had some projects. I've got a whole load of stuff done and I should be really proud of that and and it can help you shut the laptop off at the end of the day as well. And little worries is the flipside of that. And it's, It's about trying to get those concerns, no matter how small or how large out and onto paper so that other people can see them, not so that it can give you advice on what to do, but primarily just so other people can recognise that, hey, they might be having a dental worry. So it's not just their concern, it's not just them worrying about it. This is something which is part of the experience, but also if people have been through that they can say hey you know I've been through this experience as well. This is what I did. This is what worked for me. It's not about telling somebody how they should do something but it's about sharing wisdom and experience, and the, the added benefit because we have about 2000 people in our slack group. Currently, we can also start to see those patterns, and those those common worries. So if suddenly somebody posts something about IR35 and 500, other people also, you know, mark that with the emoji saying yeah me too. Then we know that's a significant issue for the community and it helps us figure out what we can do about it. Do we need to bring an expert into share their advice, do we need to take that concern to to government or to organisations that can help us do something about it or do we need to create resources.

 30:42

For instance, at the moment, I think a lot of us are going through this, this period of lethargy with really low energy and motivation and mood, and we were seeing a lot of people flagged that as a worry so we've started creating a content series of practical ways to help tackle lethargy, and if it wasn't for that sharing, we wouldn't be able to reflect and respond to the community's need in that way. 

31:07 

JA: I just want to pivot the conversation here, because a lot of people listening to this podcast, will have or will aspire to have their own small creative agencies, and many of those will be employing freelancers. Now, you're very concerned about how we employ freelancers. And you talk about something called the trusted network of talent mindset. Could you explain that mindset. 

MK: Yeah, I, so I think it's really clear that, especially the agency business model and the creative industry business model is changing has changed will continue to change. I think a lot of the old fashion models. We're recognising just don't stack up for quality of work, commerciality., and then kind of people's happiness and wellbeing.

32:09 

So there are so many new models, emerging, which I think is fantastic because finally, we are starting to see the, the structures get shaken and broken a little bit by really interesting companies like On common or Fawnbreake or Craft or Hawksby, and a whole raft of small, independent agencies that aren't tied into holding networks. And as a result, a lot of these organisations are designing from the ground up you know blank sheet of paper and saying you know what is going to work for us in the best possible way how can we ultimately create the best creative output I think that's what any business owner that starts a creative business wants is the quality of output and to be recognised for the quality of the output, and hopefully it turns into morality and positive growth.

33:12

And one of the clear observations, is that in order to build brilliant creative work and engaging communications and marketing and brand new product, you can't just stick an ad on telly, you can't just hire a copywriter or an art director, and a suit and you're done you need to have a digital specialist you need to have experiential people you need to have people who understand AI and carpenters, and chefs and, you know, a raft

of varying capabilities and talent, but you don't need those people on staff all the time and it would be crazy to have a full time carpenter. If you're only doing one physical build here. So, people turned to freelancers.

33:57

And this model is not new, you know, the film and TV industry has been doing it for best part of a century. And it was brilliantly because you can bring the right people build the right team at pace at scale and do it and do great work.

34:12

But I think there are some gaps. And I think the the lot of the time, we, we see those individuals. Just during the project and then forget about them for the rest of the time. And that means that we're as an industry, we're not necessarily investing in training and development. We're not investing in mental wellbeing outside of that period. And a lot of the time I think we forget to do really effective onboarding helping people to get to know each other to work together really well you know that that in an employee setting can take six months to get your head around how somebody works effectively in their head around the culture but in a, in a rapid team setting you've got what half a day to figure stuff out. Yeah. So there's a whole load of new challenges which come with those rapid agile team, kind of models. And I think that to the network of talent mindset it's about not seeing those as freelancers not seeing those people as temporary staff for on demand hire or especially not overflow, but rather we're building a team, don't really care what the employment contract is we're building a team of talented people here. And if we don't work well with them. If we don't support them whilst they're not working with us. If we don't have a really strong alumni network. If we don't build better understanding of how we cast those teams and maintain those networks of talent. We're not gonna be able to reach them. And the agencies who do invest in those things we'll be able to get that talent easily, and the cost of getting that talent for those agencies who don't will be much more high and complex. So I think that the shift for me is about, you know, in a lot of ways dumping any labels like Freelancer or contractor or even employee and just looking at how do we build a team that's effective, and the actual contract type kind of doesn't matter.

36:15

JA: But what about setting out formally, the mutual obligations of the employer on the freelancer, so they know where they stand with each other. How important is that? 

MK: Critical, I think contracts. A lacking a lot of time anyway certainly with lots of freelancers to kind of come in, get the job done, scope of work is often not clear. It's time and material as opposed to value based, which is a whole set of problems, but it's very transactional. And, you know, ultimately you're bringing somebody in because you're leaning upon their expertise. So then to tell them exactly how to do it and what to do seems like you're missing out on a huge amount of their value. So I think, whilst I don't know if it needs to be as formal as a, you know, written piece of paper with some sort of mutual, this is how I'm going to treat you it's kind of how I'm going to, you're going to treat me. I think there does need to be some sort of conversation or onboarding or engagement kickoff, which helps you identify what that relationship is and the expectation and hopefully try and make it on a more level pegging that you're working together as partners or his colleagues within a team, as opposed to this sort of partner or sorry agency supplier relationship whether the dynamics a bit broken. 

JA: Yeah I'm slightly going to blow my own trumpet here I did commit all this to paper actually created a simple document for the freelancers who were with us for onboarding. And for those people who are Full Members of The KitchenTable Community it's actually I've actually put it within our Slack group in a channel called Document Share.

MK: What are the core topics and chapters in that document what are the things which we'll cover in within that. 

JA: Well, it sets out what's. You know how they can expect to be treated what our basic values are. And then some ground rules about how they need to conduct themselves when they're working for us so it's pretty simple. And it's worked really well it's only about four pages long. And I found the need to do it because we've got so busy that we're hiring so many freelancers that actually. Some of them were missing what we were all about and that was my fault for not conveying it so I felt the need to put something in writing that they could sign up to. And we give that document to them to read in tandem with our formal contracts, and it really works well because I mean, let's face it, people don't read the small print of a contract. I didn't can't within a contract really lay out your values. Whereas in a more informal document, like that you can, and you know it's it's as important that people get the spirit of how you operate as they do understand the legal my new show of your mutual relationship, I think. 

MK: Absolutely. I think it's I think it's all could be more important for people you're working with shorter periods of time. Because if you hire an employee. They're going to be immersed in that environment and culture and, and learn and meet and connect whereas, yours is a freelancer maybe has like an hour to figure that one out. And if they're missing some of those values and important cultural mores I get, it's hugely valuable I also think there's there's quite often, a gap at the end of projects as well which is when you know you've, you've done the work you've submitted it everybody's happy and signed off and the invoice has been paid. But then obviously that project continues but the freelancer might not be involved so the work has been delivered but six months later, say it's a product design project. the project, the product goes live. Or it's picked up an award or it's reached a whole load of factors, or whatever, whatever the impact is, we so often forget to go back to our freelancers and say hey you know that thing that you did for us, it worked really well and you should be proud of it and we're really happy Thank you so much. And, you know, I don't think it's ever, it's ever malicious it's not people don't care but there are so few processes set up in organisations. Even those who hire huge numbers of freelancers to do some of that following up bit. And it's it's critically important for our own personal, professional development, the Google project Aristotle, which, which was looking at how high performing teams work. It's quite a few years old now, but it kind of created these five areas to look at one of which is psychological safety. But, but one of the key aspects is having a sense that you're you're you're involved in meaningful work, you know, work that has impact. And that meaning and that impact so often comes months after the project has actually been delivered if you like Coke or come to actually shipped. And if we as freelancers. Don't, don't get to hear about that it can be really difficult when you're trying to sell yourself to the next person go Oh, here are some recent designs which I did. The question will be oh you know and and how impactful was that brand, where did it go and go out and you know no matter how other creative industry you're in it always comes down to yeah but did it actually do the job it was designed for did it did it deliver. And we're quite often missing some of that information out in our portfolio. So one of the things which we're, we're designing as a community at the moment is, is how do you follow up, how do you follow up immediately afterwards give structured feedback, the individual can say, how they felt their experience was in the organisation come to, but then there's a little marker at three months, six months or 12 months to just say actually where did that project go. And again it comes back to this network of talent it builds those strong relationships between people that you're building an alumni, rather than just a list of people that you can call upon with a certain capability in day rate 

42:32

JA: And at a more basic level performance feedback is important, surely. 

MK: Yes, and I think performance feedback is really hard without clear objectives, or what is expected so without that sort of cultural relationship type of contracting. You know, things are so subjective especially in a creative context. What is good? What is delivered? I'm a strategist by trade so it's really, it's really hard to say well “Is this good enough?” Just because I've delivered a document that has some structure you know that doesn't necessarily mean that it's, it's done the job that it needs to.So I think yeah any kind of structure in any kind of formal kind of models for giving better feedback is, is really important feedback is really hard. We're not very good as people giving it or receiving it or then doing anything with it. 

43:29

JA: Well, Matthew, if I may offer some feedback. This has been tremendously useful, very very interesting time has flown. But here, we must end it So, Matthew Knight of leapers Could you give us the URL of your site? 

MK: Yeah, of course it's www.leapers.co. Or you can just Google for leapers community. 

JA: Great, well I hope everybody listening to this does. Thank you so much, Matthew. Good luck in everything you do, and stay well. 

MK: Thank you so much, and the mutual feedback as well thank you for some really provocative questions. And I think, you know, having more conversations like this is what we need to be doing as an industry, even if we haven't got the answers yet it's the conversations which help us as the most progressive business leaders do better. 

JA: Absolutely right. what better place to end. Thank you again.